Jeff Barringer --Kingsnake.com hypocrisy

[Jeff Schofield]

I, Jeff Schofield, have been a user and paying patron of Kingsnake.com classifieds for about 7-8 years, maybe longer. I have had the usual forum run ins with trolls, and have had maybe 2 questionable transactions out of hundreds from the classifieds. My account and standing was pretty impeccable til last week, here is what happened:

I got a email from Jeff Barringer saying that my ads were moved from the KINGSNAKES catagory and placed in the HYBRIDS catagory. Now most of us know anything labelled HYBRID can affect your business reputation significantly. At the same time Jeff B went on the KINGSNAKE forum and informed people of the new HYBRID section. I responded to him there saying his term was incorrect on my snakes in particular(they are considered INTERGRADES), so he added "and INTERGRADES" to that same catagory. To this I responded that it was hypocritical to place such ads there considering that there are hybrids of many types in other catagories such as CROCODILIANS, BOA CONSTRICTORS, CARPET PYTHONS, OTHER SNAKES, and others just to name a few. He didnt go on any of those forums asking people to move their ads. In pointing this out to him I asked for a working definition FROM HIM so that we all can comply with the TOS and that everything is fair and we are playing on a level playing field. I copied and pasted about 20 ads from some of the biggest names in the industry who were advertising hybrids including Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro exotics and others. He responded by closing my account and removing me from his site saying more than once that I was telling him how to run his business. Now by calling my snakes HYBRIDS he has damaged my business, and by unjustly removing me he has damaged it even more. I have all correspondence from him on the matter, not much to argue from his point of view. But as a paying customer of many years in good standing I would expect some level of CUSTOMER SERVICE from him or one of his minions. Am I wrong? Is this LEGAL? As it stands right now there are an aweful lot of hybrids for sale on his site not in the HYBRIDS section including some of the exact snakes I was selling still in the KINGSNAKE section. I waited a week before posting here because he said he had pneumonia so maybe he would see his error and reconsider which he hasnt. He said that my asking to be reinstated was me telling him how to run his business!! Comments and suggestions please!!

[TriangleReptiles]

Specifically what snake did he take exception to?

[Jeff Schofield]

You know I'm not sure as I deleted the ads from the section immediately. I have some goini x brooksi and some getula x brooksi as well. Either way these are subspefic intergrades and not anything resembling a hybrid. Even so, there are plenty of hybrid ads not in the HYBRID catagory.

[TriangleReptiles]

I personally like the changes to KS classifieds, but i can certainly see your point. The snakes you mention are certainly not hybrids by any definition I have seen. But since he changed the category to "hybrids or integrades", technically he is right about your particular snakes. I'm sure there are others that have not made it to that classification that should be there.

[brd7666]

You know I'm not sure as I deleted the ads from the section immediately. I have some goini x brooksi and some getula x brooksi as well. Either way these are subspefic intergrades and not anything resembling a hybrid. Even so, there are plenty of hybrid ads not in the HYBRID catagory.

I understand why you would want to call them integrades, but I can see how they could be called hybrids as well.

Getula x Brooksi will never breed in the wild. Their paths will never cross, and the Getula as the Eastern Chain King, and not called a Florida King.

Goini x Brooksi will never breed in the wild. Their paths will never cross. In this case you could still call them Florida Kingsnakes, because both of those subspecies are Florida kings.

So, I'm not sure they did anything wrong.

[Lucille]

I am wishing Jeff the best. Pneumonia can make one very ill indeed. My son had it once and I would not wish it on anyone.

Perhaps if you wait a bit and sent your thoughts, he might understand, but since he did add an additional category he was actually trying to help.
If talking doesn't work things out, quietly withdraw your ads; if others do so as well I believe he might look again since he wants to sell advertising.

[Jeff Schofield]

I understand why you would want to call them integrades, but I can see how they could be called hybrids as well.

Getula x Brooksi will never breed in the wild. Their paths will never cross, and the Getula as the Eastern Chain King, and not called a Florida King.

Goini x Brooksi will never breed in the wild. Their paths will never cross. In this case you could still call them Florida Kingsnakes, because both of those subspecies are Florida kings.

So, I'm not sure they did anything wrong.

I'm not sure you understand what the definition of a HYBRID is. For you and others I will post this websters definition:"an animal that results from the mating of parents from two distinct species". Now Brooksi is a trade term for Florida king, they certainly intergrade with Getula Getula(chain kings) through alot of the FL penninsula and other places. Saying that a FL king wouldnt intergrade with Goini....still doesnt explain the fact that all these subspecies are indeed part of the same species and therefore, by definition, cant possibly be a hybrid. And while he did add the intergrade term to the catagory can you see ANY grounds to remove my account?? I mean other than "its my website and I can do what I want"??

[Jeff Schofield]

I am wishing Jeff the best. Pneumonia can make one very ill indeed. My son had it once and I would not wish it on anyone.

Perhaps if you wait a bit and sent your thoughts, he might understand, but since he did add an additional category he was actually trying to help.
If talking doesn't work things out, quietly withdraw your ads; if others do so as well I believe he might look again since he wants to sell advertising.

I understand illness can make you make bad decisions and thats why I waited a week and contacted him again before making this post. And maybe you didnt understand my original post, he cancelled my accounts, removed my access to forums, and removed all my ads a week ago. I see he did add intergrades to that catagory but my account was already cancelled by then.

[KelliH]

Jeff, can you post the email exchange?

[East_Coast]

No offense Jeff --- but crossing a goini and a brooksi is a 'hybrid'; at least as far hobbyists are concerned because it is not a natural intergrade. He put your stuff in the right category.

If you have been a good customer of that site they will let you back on. Just wait a few weeks, apologize, and ask to get back in. They will.

However, if you can't see that most people in our hobby see a goini x brooksi cross as a hybrid (or at least as something other than an intergrade)... well they might not.
With that logic you could sell a Cal King x Outer Banks King as an intergrade. Why not? It meets your definition as well.

[hhmoore]

Jeff,
I can understand your frustration, and don't have much to offer on that front.

However, it isn't any surprise that there are conflicting opinions on the use of the terms hybrid and intergrade. To an extent, it depends on where you learned the terms. One of the key factors I picked up years ago is that intergrades are a mixing of subspecies that share a natural range. In other words, it is a naturally occurring thing. Not all sources will include the italicized pieced, though....and, since the standard definitions of hybrid generally state different species, it often leaves a question in people's minds.

That said, I just went and checked for the heading (to see if its placement could have caused some confusion regarding the intent). It is most definitely a wholly separate category (not intended to be a subset of kings or milks); so, IMO, it is wrong for you to be singled out while others are allowed to advertise outside of that category (this statement is made based solely on the information you have provided here, of course - sometimes there is some back story that helps explain the conflict).

[brd7666]

I'm not sure you understand what the definition of a HYBRID is. For you and others I will post this websters definition:"an animal that results from the mating of parents from two distinct species". Now Brooksi is a trade term for Florida king, they certainly intergrade with Getula Getula(chain kings) through alot of the FL penninsula and other places. Saying that a FL king wouldnt intergrade with Goini....still doesnt explain the fact that all these subspecies are indeed part of the same species and therefore, by definition, cant possibly be a hybrid. And while he did add the intergrade term to the catagory can you see ANY grounds to remove my account?? I mean other than "its my website and I can do what I want"??

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but you need to learn about what you are selling.

Brooksi is not a trade term for Florida King. A Brooksi is a subspecies of the Florida King. A Brooksi is found in extreem South Florida like Miami, Homestead, and almost to the Keys.

Goini or Apalachicola Kingsnake, is a subspecies of the Florida King, found in the Apalachicola Forest, which is in the Northen part of Florida in the pan handle.

Eastern Chain King is found in eastern United States in Florida, and from southern Alabama to southern New Jersey. This is not a subspecies of the Florida Kingsnake even though they are in the same family.

So, Eastern Chain x Brooksi will never meet in the wild, and Goini x Brooksi will never meet in the wild.

The term integrated is generally used when two species breed who have over lapping territory. This is not the case with what you have.

So by your thinking a Lampropeltis Getula Floridana x lampropeltis Getula Californiae would not be a hybrid? They are in the same family.

My advise to you is, stop your complaining and deal with it. Making waves will keep you off of there longer. If you wait a few months, Jeff will let you back on.

[KelliH]

No offense Jeff --- but crossing a goini and a brooksi is a 'hybrid'; at least as far hobbyists are concerned because it is not a natural intergrade. He put your stuff in the right category.

If you have been a good customer of that site they will let you back on. Just wait a few weeks, apologize, and ask to get back in. They will.

However, if you can't see that most people in our hobby see a goini x brooksi cross as a hybrid (or at least as something other than an intergrade)... well they might not.
With that logic you could sell a Cal King x Outer Banks King as an intergrade. Why not? It meets your definition as well.

Jeff,
I can understand your frustration, and don't have much to offer on that front.

However, it isn't any surprise that there are conflicting opinions on the use of the terms hybrid and intergrade. To an extent, it depends on where you learned the terms. One of the key factors I picked up years ago is that intergrades are a mixing of subspecies that share a natural range. In other words, it is a naturally occurring thing. Not all sources will include the italicized pieced, though....and, since the standard definitions of hybrid generally state different species, it often leaves a question in people's minds.

That said, I just went and checked for the heading (to see if its placement could have caused some confusion regarding the intent). It is most definitely a wholly separate category (not intended to be a subset of kings or milks); so, IMO, it is wrong for you to be singled out while others are allowed to advertise outside of that category (this statement is made based solely on the information you have provided here, of course - sometimes there is some back story that helps explain the conflict).

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but you need to learn about what you are selling.

Brooksi is not a trade term for Florida King. A Brooksi is a subspecies of the Florida King. A Brooksi is found in extreem South Florida like Miami, Homestead, and almost to the Keys.

Goini or Apalachicola Kingsnake, is a subspecies of the Florida King, found in the Apalachicola Forest, which is in the Northen part of Florida in the pan handle.

Eastern Chain King is found in eastern United States in Florida, and from southern Alabama to southern New Jersey. This is not a subspecies of the Florida Kingsnake even though they are in the same family.

So, Eastern Chain x Brooksi will never meet in the wild, and Goini x Brooksi will never meet in the wild.

The term integrated is generally used when two species breed who have over lapping territory. This is not the case with what you have.

So by your thinking a Lampropeltis Getula Floridana x lampropeltis Getula Californiae would not be a hybrid? They are in the same family.

My advise to you is, stop your complaining and deal with it. Making waves will keep you off of there longer. If you wait a few months, Jeff will let you back on.

I agree with all of the above in red.

[Jeff Schofield]

No offense Jeff --- but crossing a goini and a brooksi is a 'hybrid'; at least as far hobbyists are concerned because it is not a natural intergrade. He put your stuff in the right category.

If you have been a good customer of that site they will let you back on. Just wait a few weeks, apologize, and ask to get back in. They will.

However, if you can't see that most people in our hobby see a goini x brooksi cross as a hybrid (or at least as something other than an intergrade)... well they might not.
With that logic you could sell a Cal King x Outer Banks King as an intergrade. Why not? It meets your definition as well.

Hobbyists have aknowledged the difference years ago, sorry you werent consulted,lol. I didnt breed them, but some of the biggest kingsnake breeders now have them available. And about the catagory, my account was closed before I could move the ads. I waited a week already, let him get over his illness, and he still refused to reinstate me. Here is the exchange:

We started the conversation on the forum and I had told him the difference between HYBRIDS and INTERGRADES, here is his first response

"We will be putting anything that is not a single species or subspecies into the Hybrid category
whether they are "man made hybrids" or "natural intergrades"

If it makes you more comfortable we will change the category name to "Hybrids & Intergrades" "

My response:"Jeff, If a CA boa x SURI is in the boa section WHY are my ads in the INTERGRADE section?? Cant have it both ways!! "

His response:"Mr. Schofield you are in fact telling me how to run my businsess when you tell me I "can't" do something
and frankly now your doing it in public on my forums too.

You have a choice refund or suspension, I don't care which but I warned you and you just kept on."--my account now suspended.

I responded:"Jeff, not telling you how to run your business, sorry you are sick. But I dont think this was well thought out, there are more INTERGRADES in animals than there are PURE ssp. If all the chameleons, geckos, boas, pythons et all end up in the INTERGRADE section, FINE. But if you leave a CA x Columbian boa in the boa section but put my ads in the INTERGRADE section I'm not sure what message you are sending to me or to anyone else. I am trying to HELP you do your job better, by placing my ads in with HYBRIDS you make my job ALOT harder! Think about that as well, Thanks, Jeff"

He responded:"I told you I am home with pneumonia, it is a Sunday, its 2 in the morning and you are continuing to tell me how to run my business.
Now your CCing your friend into our conversation without my permission. Fine he gets to hear this too.

Your no longer a customer. Your accounts are terminated. Your ads are gone.
The only thing you will get from here on in is a refund of your balance.
You are gone permanently. I will not reply nor respond to any further
communication from you of any kind.

Go tell someone else how to run their business."

No one told him he had to respond at 2am if he was sick. I retorted"Jeff, those posts were BEFORE your last email. I in fact rescinded my ad. As a paying customer of many years I would think you would understand my point in principal as not simply argumentative.You obviously changed the heading from HYBRIDS to HYBRIDS/INTERGRADES. Are you saying that it is fair for CA boas x columbians in the BOA CONSTRICTOR section yet my king x king is not allowed in the kingsnake section? I am a very reasonable man and I am willing to listen to your justification but now I'm afraid you dont care that I am trying to HELP you. I am sure I am not going to be the only one with these thoughts and feelings, I dont want my snakes lumped with HYBRIDS and no one else does either. Not sure why you would want to do it. Please dont say "cause I said so its my business..." If I didnt CARE about YOUR BUSINESS I would not try and explain this to you. Again, sorry you are sick, please take some time on this subject as I'm sure there are others that mirror my "loud words". Jeff, you havent made bad or unpopular decisions before so I think I deserve a logical, honest explanation why you would do so now. Thanks, Jeff Schofield"--Does this sound like an unreasonable person?

He responded:"Sir - I am not going to argue with you.
I am just going to refund your balance.
Goodbye."

I responded"Jeff, here are just a few of the ads on your website that offer Hybrids for sale NOT in the Hybrid section. There are ads in almost every catagory and by some of the biggest names such as Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro Exotics and many others. As you can see if you reread my email, I am asking you a question as I think I am allowed to as a paying customer. Why the selective enforcement? I am NOT the bad guy here, I am basically your employee working to show you that there is a problem in the system. When you are feeling better please contact me ASAP, Thank you, Jeff Schofield
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=831376
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=821082
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=823686
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=92&de=815104
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=92&de=830136
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=832983
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=832971
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=8&de=831571"

I waited a week and sent him this today"Jeff, I hope your sickness has broken and you can hear me out. I was not arguing with you before I was only trying to understand why I was singled out. In fact I noticed just today that there are at least 2 dealers advertising the exact same animals as mine in the kingsnake classifieds today(Bay area reptiles/Carolina reptiles). Cindy knows me and I have dealt with a bunch of trolls on the forums before, I hoped you didnt take things the wrong way but I fear you have. Please accept this week as my suspension and reinstate my account so I can continue to add to the community. Thank you, Jeff Schofield"

His response"Mr Schofeld I have taken things the wrong way as far as your concerned. You came to my business and told me I can and I can't do this, and that you were being singled out because we han't moved all the ads to where they were supposed to be
The only singling out that occurred was when you tried to tell me how to do my job, as you once again have done today.
Neither myself nor my moderators can be or can see every advertisement on our site that needs to be moved but we neiuther need nor appreciate your help in telling us how to do our jobs.
As far as I am concerned you are non-grata on our site and I will not respond further."

My last response"Mr Barringer, in no way have I TOLD you how to run your business. In that forum tet a tet I informed you that you didnt have the correct term(hybrid vs intergrade)and frankly figured you knew the difference. In explaining what a intergrade was and what a hybrid was I informed you about all the hybrids listed elsewhere on your site and suggested that a definition was needed from YOU so that we(as PAYING CLIENTS) can properly comply with the TOS. Instead of an answer I got removed from your site. I have copies of all our email correspondence and I was hoping you would reread them and see exactly what I was talking about. By putting my animals in a HYBRID section you have damaged my business. By removing me unjustly from your website you have damaged my business. All anyone can ever ask is a level playing field, it is America, I shouldnt have to ask for it. You will have the opportunity to respond either here or elsewhere but know I take someone damaging my business VERY seriously. Thank you, Jeff Schofield"

Thats it, you can hopefully see my effort and my intent. Comments?

[Wraith]

Comments and suggestions please!!

So... you posting on the kingsnake forum calling Jeff out and trying to start a riot wasn't the cause of you getting banned? :rolleyes:

[Lucille]

My response:"Jeff, If a CA boa x SURI is in the boa section WHY are my ads in the INTERGRADE section?? Cant have it both ways!! "

Comments?

Yeah. This guy was not feeling well, and your response above was a demand and a challenge, not a call to reason.

You were trying to kick butt and he had a bigger shoe.

[hhmoore]

Jeff,
I didn't see what was going on in the forums there, but from those emails it was pretty clear that Jeff was taking offense to your approach. While sometimes things like that can't be avoided, I think in this case you pushed beyond the limits of common sense. I get that you thought you were right; but sometimes (as the old saying goes) discretion is the better part of valor. (I know - easy to say, as a non participant, and unaffected party)
I don't know Jeff at all, so I can't comment on the likelihood of you getting reinstated

[Jeff Schofield]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but you need to learn about what you are selling.

Brooksi is not a trade term for Florida King. A Brooksi is a subspecies of the Florida King. A Brooksi is found in extreem South Florida like Miami, Homestead, and almost to the Keys.
Goini or Apalachicola Kingsnake, is a subspecies of the Florida King, found in the Apalachicola Forest, which is in the Northen part of Florida in the pan handle.

Eastern Chain King is found in eastern United States in Florida, and from southern Alabama to southern New Jersey. This is not a subspecies of the Florida Kingsnake even though they are in the same family.

So, Eastern Chain x Brooksi will never meet in the wild, and Goini x Brooksi will never meet in the wild.

The term integrated is generally used when two species breed who have over lapping territory. This is not the case with what you have.

So by your thinking a Lampropeltis Getula Floridana x lampropeltis Getula Californiae would not be a hybrid? They are in the same family.

My advise to you is, stop your complaining and deal with it. Making waves will keep you off of there longer. If you wait a few months, Jeff will let you back on.[/QUOTE]

Geez, I really dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but Brooksi is no longer accepted at all, but neither is Goini. Florida kings are not a species, they are in fact a subspecies of the COMMON KINGSNAKE. In Florida and other places they intergrade with Eastern kings. Eastern kings also intergrade with "Meansi"(I still hate that name), and they will all meet in the wild. So, again sorry to have to correct you, but there is no "family" of kingsnakes, they are all subspecies or clades of the Common Kingsnake.

[David Scarboro]

Exactly what you were trying to accomplish, but Jeff B is probably aware of this thread by now, and I do not think that it is going to help you. On a side note, you reported me to KS years ago for asking an honest question in the Field Notes thread. Funny:rofl:

[Jeff Schofield]

So... you posting on the kingsnake forum calling Jeff out and trying to start a riot wasn't the cause of you getting banned? :rolleyes:

"Riots" aside, Jeff didnt know what he was talking about and I really thought I was helping. Seeing that no one else was banned or even had to change their ads YES I was feeling a tad singled out. All I wanted was a reason, a definition, so we can all have the same rules. Was that too much to ask? Maybe at the time, but in the following emails you can tell where I was coming from cant you? Isnt it obvious?

[akonitony]

Jeff, I'm afraid you have shot yourself in the foot. As a guy who also has a slight limp now and then, I am an expert in this area. First you need to stop the bleeding by NOT contacting Mr. Schofield or anyone associated with him - ever. Next you need to bandage the wound. You can use other forums for this. Now most people think you change the bandage because it is getting dirty, but the real reason is to check the wound. You might want to think about the advantages of being an intergrade or even hybrid professional. There are some who say purebreds are the only way to go, and they probably are not going to check you out, but I've a feeling if you play your crappy hand you've been delt in an intelligent manner, you might just find a fairly new niche in the market. I can think of one breeder who has done just that, and I won't mention their name, but their initials are MM. They have some of the most beautiful and unique snakes on the market, and this is the opinion of someone who is generally on the purebreds side of the fence. They also make it a point to advertise what they have crossed. Who cares what the definition of hybrid or intergrade is? Look at the animal in question and ask "Is it good". If you can say yes to this question with your snakes for sale, hopefully more people will see why you like them.
As my hero Forrest Gump would say: "... and that's about all I have to say about that".

PS: Oh, and always smell the chocolate to make sure it isn't a turd.

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff, I'm afraid you have shot yourself in the foot. As a guy who also has a slight limp now and then, I am an expert in this area. First you need to stop the bleeding by NOT contacting Mr. Schofield or anyone associated with him - ever. Next you need to bandage the wound. You can use other forums for this. Now most people think you change the bandage because it is getting dirty, but the real reason is to check the wound. You might want to think about the advantages of being an intergrade or even hybrid professional. There are some who say purebreds are the only way to go, and they probably are not going to check you out, but I've a feeling if you play your crappy hand you've been delt in an intelligent manner, you might just find a fairly new niche in the market. I can think of one breeder who has done just that, and I won't mention their name, but their initials are MM. They have some of the most beautiful and unique snakes on the market, and this is the opinion of someone who is generally on the purebreds side of the fence. They also make it a point to advertise what they have crossed. Who cares what the definition of hybrid or intergrade is? Look at the animal in question and ask "Is it good". If you can say yes to this question with your snakes for sale, hopefully more people will see why you like them.
As my hero Forrest Gump would say: "... and that's about all I have to say about that".

PS: Oh, and always smell the chocolate to make sure it isn't a turd.

Ummm, thank you I think. I AM Mr. Schofield, hard for me not to contact him,lol. Are they "good"?? No question they are to me and many others, problem is that some people got their panties in a bunch with them and have either complained to JeffB about them or he is one of them himself.

[akonitony]

And one more thing: My purebred rotties with papers and OFA certification are actually made up of 11 different breeds of dogs. How do you think we got so many breeds of dog, all coming from the wolf? Concentrate on what traits you want to intensify and before you know it, we will be seeing Lampropeltis getula schofield, or something like that. I also now see I got your last name in the who to NOT contact in that previous post, so please insert Barringer there.

[Abish]

"Riots" aside, Jeff didnt know what he was talking about and I really thought I was helping. Seeing that no one else was banned or even had to change their ads YES I was feeling a tad singled out. All I wanted was a reason, a definition, so we can all have the same rules. Was that too much to ask? Maybe at the time, but in the following emails you can tell where I was coming from cant you? Isnt it obvious?

He changed the forum name for you, and warned you repeatedly, and you just kept on both privately and publicly.

I can see 'where you were coming from' (wanting to protect your reputation, and a deeply held fundamental disagreement on semantics that was addressed early on) but it also it looks an awful lot like it was (at least partly) butt-hurt. You may have honestly not intended to, but to me those messages from you seem to have a pretty condescending and nasty tone. If I had pneumonia and had already compromised with you, I probably wouldn't have held it together as well as Jeff B.

There aren't a lot of guys who are going to let you use their own forums to knock them. Hopefully you'll be able to successfully carry on business elsewhere, and be a little more diplomatic when dealing with the boss.

[scaledverts]

Irrespective of the hybrid vs intergrade debate (that in itself is often the topic of very long threads in various forums). I think the tone of your emails is what set Jeff B on edge. As others have said, IMO you need to let things die down (that means not contacting Jeff B for a while AND not pushing the issue on other sites) and then attempt to get back in.

The other side of this issue is that he did refund you your membership money (or at least he said he was going to). So as much as you don't really want to hear it, it is his website and he actually can choose to refuse service to someone for what her perceives as lack of respect (whether real or not). So you may be SOL.

That's my $0.02

[scaledverts]

I responded"Jeff, here are just a few of the ads on your website that offer Hybrids for sale NOT in the Hybrid section. There are ads in almost every catagory and by some of the biggest names such as Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro Exotics and many others.

It should be mentioned that at least Ben Siegel has adds in the hybrid section, so either his were moved too or he put them there.

[Southern Wolf]

Sorry but what your producing is hybrids. Brooski x Brooski is a species. Goini x Brooksi is a hybrid.

Just like a creamsicle corn is a hybrid. They crossed a rat snake with a corn. While they may be closely related... they are still a hybrid.

[Amelanistic Orca]

:shootfootSorry Jeff S.; the time is right now to backpedal and beg for forgiveness; that's of course, IF, you want to continue selling on KS.. Bum deal in reality; they have moved many of my ads over the year's; I was always thankful I didn't have to reconfigure them?? Go figure??:shrug01:

[Jeff Schofield]

Sorry but what your producing is hybrids. Brooski x Brooski is a species. Goini x Brooksi is a hybrid.

Just like a creamsicle corn is a hybrid. They crossed a rat snake with a corn. While they may be closely related... they are still a hybrid.

First, Brooksi is not a species OR a subspecies, it is a "clade" or even a "locale". The species is Common kingsnake, the subspecies is Florida king, the "locale" is Brooks canal(Lampropeltis Getula Floridana "Brooksi"). FYI a creamsicle corn is a HYBRID, it is a corn snake(its own species pantherophis guttatus) bred with a emory rat(pantherophis emoryi) then bred back. Lampropeltis and Pantherophis are Genus names, Getula and Guttatus and Emoryi are Species names, Floridana is the subspecies.

[Jeff Schofield]

:shootfootSorry Jeff S.; the time is right now to backpedal and beg for forgiveness; that's of course, IF, you want to continue selling on KS.. Bum deal in reality; they have moved many of my ads over the year's; I was always thankful I didn't have to reconfigure them?? Go figure??:shrug01:

Well, I want to get off the defensive here for a moment. I think anyone can see I was progressively conciliatory in most if not all of my responses. But just as I have had to correct about 3-4 people in this thread alone, ALOT of people just dont know the definitions nor use them correctly. I had to tell Jeff B. and he may not have been happy about it but for someone into Graybands I would think he'd be familiar with those names. No reason to hold it against me. Was I wrong to assume he knew what he was doing? If he had moved my kingsnake ad to a milksnake column, or even a BOA column that would be OK. With the proliferation of morphs I think its safe to say you have to know what you are talking about before you call anything hybrid any more.

[poppy]

I guess it boils down to what's most important to you, A or B.

A.) You are right, no budging, to the death, you are right. OR
B.) Advertising your wares on KS.com

If A.) is most important, then I think you are already doing a perfect job of conveying it.

on the other hand,

If B.) is more important than A.) Then I would probably disappear, and let the emotions settle, then contact KS.com in a few weeks and say absolutely not one word other than to appologize your butt off for being perceived as whatever, just appologize for it all.

Eating crow don't go down easy, but time will wash the bitter taste away.

Just my 2bits.

[East_Coast]

Jeff, you aren't correcting anyone. You were corrected by Kingsnake.com and now, since they won't see your point of view - they are wrong, right?

Think about that and good luck selling your fake 'intergrades'

[akonitony]

Um... Jeff, me thinks the Genus is Elaphe there brother.
After a quick and easy, I cut pasted this: Further taxonomic controversy has included the taxonomic suggestion that the genus be changed to Pantherophis, (Utiger et al. (2002) Russian Journal of Herpetology 9(2): 105–124) but this was rejected by Crother et al. in (2003) Update. Herp. Rev. 34: 196-203. The International Committee for Zoological Nomenclature has not endorsed the change to Pantherophis, thus the correct genus remains Elaphe.

You know, a good night's sleep has often been exactly what I needed when the going didn't seem to be going too well. Yes, as with any fairly large group of individuals, there are some real numb-nuts on this website, but there are also some very, very knowledgeable people here as well. Generally speaking, if I'm not 100% absolutely sure I know about what I'm typing, I would rather been thought of as ignorant rather than type away and dispell all doubt - not to say I have always been successful with this, but I try to learn from my mistakes. As you probably know, the definition of insanity basically states it as repeating the same behaviour and expecting different results, just my $0.02 worth here.

[akonitony]

First, Brooksi is not a species OR a subspecies, it is a "clade" or even a "locale". The species is Common kingsnake, the subspecies is Florida king, the "locale" is Brooks canal(Lampropeltis Getula Floridana "Brooksi"). FYI a creamsicle corn is a HYBRID, it is a corn snake(its own species pantherophis guttatus) bred with a emory rat(pantherophis emoryi) then bred back. Lampropeltis and Pantherophis are Genus names, Getula and Guttatus and Emoryi are Species names, Floridana is the subspecies.

This is what I was responding to in my last post regarding the genus thingy. I should have included it so everyone will know I'm not posting off subject here - one of my mistakes I used to make, but have learned to avoid with shock therapy.

[Abish]

Well, I want to get off the defensive here for a moment. I think anyone can see I was progressively conciliatory in most if not all of my responses. But just as I have had to correct about 3-4 people in this thread alone, ALOT of people just dont know the definitions nor use them correctly. I had to tell Jeff B. and he may not have been happy about it but for someone into Graybands I would think he'd be familiar with those names. No reason to hold it against me. Was I wrong to assume he knew what he was doing? If he had moved my kingsnake ad to a milksnake column, or even a BOA column that would be OK. With the proliferation of morphs I think its safe to say you have to know what you are talking about before you call anything hybrid any more.

1st bolded: I see the opposite, and I would venture to guess I am far from alone there.

2nd bolded: If people don't know the difference, then I guess the distinction was never that important to make, yes? If people seem to think of intergrades and hybrids as the same thing, then it really wouldn't have hurt your intergrade business much, would it? Especially after he renamed the forum just to make you more comfortable.

3rd bolded: This is exactly the wrong sort of thing to be saying if you want to reconcile and play nice with Jeff B. again. You are still being condescending and bull headed towards him. It is fine to stand on principal and burn the occasional bridge, but right now you've lit the bridge and are wailing about how much you want to walk back across to the other bank, continuing to throw more gasoline on the fire. If you're going to stand on principal, consequences be damned, don't snivel about the consequences.

[Lucille]

This seems like one of the Bad Guy BOI threads where you find that the OP is actually a bad customer.

[East_Coast]

Abish he did not just burn the bridge. He crossed an ocean, unloaded the ships, and then set the sailboats on fire. Between this stupid (Yeah: STUPID) bad guy post and his ego-driven emails and forum posts slamming Jeff B; he will never get on that site again.

Way to go Jeff. Well at least you got to prove you know more about terminology, right?

[KcTrader]

What ever happened to the saying " The customer is always right "???? I will probably be looked at differently but I would have to agree with Jeff S on this one, All classified section posters/payers should have been notified about that section and what animals it was going to include way before they were moved. This would give these people the right to discontinue the ad or relist it somewhere else. I think JeffS has a clear standing on defending his ad and animals, I know not everyone was notified at the same time there is another discussion about ads being moved. I am a business owner myself and when I increase fees its across the board everyone is notified well in advance 30 days or so. This gives them time to decide what they are going to do.

JeffS or any other KS classified poster maybe you can clear this up for me is there a definition of the category when posting a classified ad? Do they give example? Anyway, Why shouldn't all the ads be given scientific Names first and then the common or pet trade name?
This is where using pet trade names make it confusing, why not list the categories in Scientific Names First with pet trade names second? And if it is a L.p.p x L.pk that should still be listed under L.pyromelana (mountain kings), and L.g.floridana x L.g.getulus should still be listed under L.g.(kingsnakes) and so on....

Sorry if I offended anyone but this is MHO....Right,wrong or indifferent......

[KcTrader]

Sorry forgot to mention one thing if you cross a Christmas mountain grey band with a Hwy277 grayband is it a hybrid? or Intergrade? or just a generic? Any way you skin it its still a L.alterna. Things change as with L.p.infralabialis and L.p.woodini you don't see many distinguish dealers/breeders selling these anymore they are sold as "AZ Mountain Kings" under L.p. Why?

[JColt]

All classified section posters/payers should have been notified about that section and what animals it was going to include way before they were moved. This would give these people the right to discontinue the ad or relist it somewhere else.

That much is true. If your a paying customer then they should have been notified.

[Abish]

Why couldn't he discontinue the ad? I'm not aware of Jeff B. preventing it in any way.

As far as relisting it elsewhere, he says it is an intergrade, the subgroup is for hybrids and intergrades. It belongs there. I can't go and list cobra in the pythons slot because I think it'll get more looks, or because I don't want it listed under the same heading as venemoids.

I would agree that the customers should be notified if it was something like a fee hike or removing a service. 30 days notice that you're going to be offering clearer categories, with no interruption in the ads? I'm not seeing the need.

[KcTrader]

Why couldn't he discontinue the ad? I'm not aware of Jeff B. preventing it in any way.

As far as relisting it elsewhere, he says it is an intergrade, the subgroup is for hybrids and intergrades. It belongs there. I can't go and list cobra in the pythons slot because I think it'll get more looks, or because I don't want it listed under the same heading as venemoids.

I would agree that the customers should be notified if it was something like a fee hike or removing a service. 30 days notice that you're going to be offering clearer categories, with no interruption in the ads? I'm not seeing the need.

I understand the whole Cobra to Python ad., but those are not the type of ads in question. They are L.g.floridana "Brooksi X Gioni" are to that extent. Do I believe Hybrid and Intergades be in the same category. Absolutely not. The are no where even close IMHO. Do I consider "Brooksi X Gioni" a hybrid? No. Do I consider a creamsicle corn a hybrid? No. Do I consider a Corn with a Kingsnake,Milksnake, and Gopher? Yes. It is such a gray area I beleive it should of took a little more notification on the business and have a predetermined definition of a "Hybrid" and "intergrade". I don't know if one is posted when posting classifieds so if any can clear it up, please do.

What is everyones definition of Hybrid? also Intergrade? I bet you will have all kinds of answers, its all personal preference, and I don't think JeffS was out of line at all. He was sticking to his guns and had a reasonable complaint that his ads were moved and noone elses was.

[Lucille]

reasonable complaint

Inside his head it was reasonable
The concept of notification is reasonable

His tenor was not reasonable. His 'Can't have it both ways' statement was a challenge, not a quest for the meeting of the minds.

I am thinking most people who run large sites have a similar outlook. If someone comes to them and respectfully presents their case, and then backs off giving time to look over and consider, there may not be complete satisfaction but there will rarely be a negative consequence.

Running a large board is a lot of responsibility, and there is all sorts of stuff involved that the public rarely sees. If someone comes with a demand and a 'get in your face' attitude, they might expect exactly what took place here.

[Abish]

By Jeff S.'s own definition, the snakes were intergrades. The forum was named hybrids and INTERGRADES out of fairness to Jeff. By his own definition, they belonged in that forum.

Maybe Jeff S was one of the first to have his ads moved, but he certainly wasn't the only one who had them moved or was told they needed to move them. It was a new policy, you're not going to have 100% compliance the first day. That doesn't mean the people who are subjected to the sites' policy are being unfairly singled out.


Jeff's reasonable complaint was addressed, unfortunately he didn't accept it and move on with his life. This is the result. Both Jeffs stuck to their guns (after Jeff B. did make one concession) and Jeff B. ended up being the one who actually had leverage.

Everyone's definition of hybrids and intergrades doesn't really matter here, since in the case we are discussing Jeff S has conceded that he considers them intergrades, he just still doesn't want them in the hybrids and intergrades section.

[KcTrader]

Running a large board is a lot of responsibility, and there is all sorts of stuff involved that the public rarely sees. If someone comes with a demand and a 'get in your face' attitude, they might expect exactly what took place here.

Running a large board is no different than running a fortune 500 company or a family business. There are a lot of things that people don't understand if your actually not one in that type of business. But KS is a service company that makes money off of advertising revenue and if the change is not addressed properly than there will be conflicting interests not only monetary but for people to understand and accept the change.
I just think both sides could have been a little more compassionate to determine the outcome. Jeff S, could have been a little more understandable in the fact that, that was going to be the change. But I think Jeff B. should have been a little more compassionate with not only Jeff S. but others as well to discuss the fact that they were lumping the 2 in the same section and having a list of what guidelines to use. Rather than just taking it upon themselves(KS) to move the ads. I was not part of the discussion nor did I have an ad that was moved so I don't know the emails that took place before any ad was moved other than Jeff S's. I stand by my decision to take Jeff S. side until I know he and everyone else was properly notified on the changes and what determined the ad change. I guess I am the minority here, but when you exchange emails/texts sometimes words are represented in ways that were not the way they were meant. By reading Jeff S. emails I beleive he was being sincere in the sense he wanted to help out the community to solve a problem but the words written were not taken the way he meant them.

Thank You all for your opinions! That is great that we can discuss things openly on a forum and not be repremanded when we don't agree! It is the way it is and I think to solve Jeff S issue would be:

A) write an Letter to Jeff B understanding his stand in the matter and explain that he was not taking cheap shots at Jeff B personally or towards the business.

B) let the fire burn out and accept that it is Jeff B site and he makes the rule and guidlines for posting.

Jeff B should make sure that when changes arise that it affects his visitors and advertisers all in the same way and both sides should be allowed to discuss them with out repremand.

[Southern Wolf]

First, Brooksi is not a species OR a subspecies, it is a "clade" or even a "locale". The species is Common kingsnake, the subspecies is Florida king, the "locale" is Brooks canal(Lampropeltis Getula Floridana "Brooksi"). FYI a creamsicle corn is a HYBRID, it is a corn snake(its own species pantherophis guttatus) bred with a emory rat(pantherophis emoryi) then bred back. Lampropeltis and Pantherophis are Genus names, Getula and Guttatus and Emoryi are Species names, Floridana is the subspecies.

If it wasn't a hybrid then you would have listed your ad as Flordia Kings. Not ?? x ??

Look... I've had my ads removed from there as well. I contacted them and politely asked them why. They responded... I revamped my ads and reposted. Problem solved. Yes it took me a little while to get it done.

The key is.... in most folks eyes.... ZZ x YY is a hybrid.

[The BoidSmith]

Jeff,

Please don't take this personally but it seems you forgot what your main objective was. You took it as if it was to prove Jeff B. did not know what he was talking about, and that you were right. You had a similar approach with some posters in this thread. You asked for opinions and when they voiced them you tried to have them change to fit your approach. Had your main objective been to maintain a venue for selling your snakes in ks you would still be doing it.

[KelliH]

Sorry forgot to mention one thing if you cross a Christmas mountain grey band with a Hwy277 grayband is it a hybrid? or Intergrade? or just a generic? Any way you skin it its still a L.alterna. Things change as with L.p.infralabialis and L.p.woodini you don't see many distinguish dealers/breeders selling these anymore they are sold as "AZ Mountain Kings" under L.p. Why?

Neither. It's a locality cross of the same species.

[Southern Wolf]

What ever happened to the saying " The customer is always right "???? I will probably be looked at differently but I would have to agree with Jeff S on this one, All classified section posters/payers should have been notified about that section and what animals it was going to include way before they were moved. This would give these people the right to discontinue the ad or relist it somewhere else. I think JeffS has a clear standing on defending his ad and animals, I know not everyone was notified at the same time there is another discussion about ads being moved. I am a business owner myself and when I increase fees its across the board everyone is notified well in advance 30 days or so. This gives them time to decide what they are going to do.

JeffS or any other KS classified poster maybe you can clear this up for me is there a definition of the category when posting a classified ad? Do they give example? Anyway, Why shouldn't all the ads be given scientific Names first and then the common or pet trade name?
This is where using pet trade names make it confusing, why not list the categories in Scientific Names First with pet trade names second? And if it is a L.p.p x L.pk that should still be listed under L.pyromelana (mountain kings), and L.g.floridana x L.g.getulus should still be listed under L.g.(kingsnakes) and so on....

Sorry if I offended anyone but this is MHO....Right,wrong or indifferent......

He was given a change to revamp his ad and repost. He lost that chance when he went off on the site owner.

As to posting an ad. You have to got into the section you want your ad in and then click on submit ad.

Question I have is how are you going to give a scientific name to a hybrid? There is no honest taxonomy on them thus no scientific name. They are a whole new species.

[Wolfy-hound]

Personally there's a ton of people who feel your "intergrades" are "Hybrids". It's rather obvious just from this thread that more people feel you are wrong in that than right.

But whether you are more right than KS on the locales, intergrades, hybrids, species or what doesn't excuse that you used an attitude in your emailed exchanges. That you also posted an attitude in the forums about it pretty much cinched the case tight against you being on KS.

Putting things in bold all-caps, and the "Can't have it both ways!" type comments were calling KS out and trying to say "I want it my way and you HAVE to do it that way!" You really left KS no choice with your attitude and I'm completely unsurprised that he dumped you. He owns the site and if he wants to create the hybrid/intergrades catagory then he's going to do so. You most likely could have worked it out if you'd dropped the big man attitude that you were Right but you chose to stick to the argument that YOUR definition was the only one and then decided to start up about 'Such and such hasn't moved HIS ads!! It's NOT FAIR!" comments.

Advertise on other venues. That's my opinion on the thread. If I were KS, I'd be leery of letting you back on the site, since you showed no sign of stopping.

[EdwardK]

Question I have is how are you going to give a scientific name to a hybrid? There is no honest taxonomy on them thus no scientific name. They are a whole new species.

Not singling you out but you provided a good point on which to expand the discussion.

The problem with people and reptiles is that we have a history of animals in the wild mixing genes which in a number of cases were once listed as their own species and in a number of cases form "zones of intergradation" in the wild. The thing many people forget is that the intergrade breedings in the wild are often different than those that occur in captivity. Breeding a New Jersey getulus and a goini may when one looks at the names on paper appear to be the same as the southern most getulus breeding with a goini but in reality there are significant genetic differences. So these crosses should not be viewed as being the same as those that occur in the wild. As some versions of these intergrades occur naturally in the wild, there is a position by some people that these are not "hybrids" however if we look to other systems of accepted nomenclature there is a good bit of evidence that they should be considered hybrids.

There are recognized nomenclature systems that deal this issue and have standards which could be adopted and used. For example; in plant cultivation these crosses are listed by cross (for example goini x getulus). In the older plant literature, the crosses were listed by sex (pollen donor to receiver) but this convention is no longer required. However it should be noted that under plant cultivation the above cross would be considered a hybrid.

When one looks into domestic animal breeding, there is also a couple of applicable conventions that can be accepted and used. Crosses between localities that are not considered separate subspecies (this is the grey band example provided by a different poster above) would be considered to be crossbreeds and not intergrades or hybrids. In domestic animals this is signified by listing the two breeds with a cross in the middle (although dog breeders coin new names by combining them (ex labradoodle versus goldendoodle). Normally the male is listed first. (there is actually a decent explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbreed) however it should be noted that crosses between different subspecies under these conventions are also considered to be hybrids.

So to shorten it up.. crosses between species and/or subspecies are hybrids (under the above rules), crosses within a subspecies (or a species with no subspecies) are considered crossbreds (but not hybrids). As a result care should be taken when listing a snake as an intergrade as unless the parental stock actually came from the intergradation zone, the genes will be different and not a true intergrade hence the designation of hybrid...

I missed the posts on kingsnake so I'm guessing that they were deleted but based on the above conventions, it appears that kingsnake did have the correct position on the crosses.

Ed
Ed Kowalski

[akonitony]

Question I have is how are you going to give a scientific name to a hybrid? There is no honest taxonomy on them thus no scientific name. They are a whole new species.

Yes, I realized this. The idea was more of inspirational than actual. Just trying to give the guy a new angle of appoach. Speaking of Jeff, I've noticed he hasn't posted anything since the genus post. Perhaps he is trying to correct things at The International Committee for Zoological Nomenclature?

[akonitony]

[QUOTE=Wolfy-hound;1192015] You most likely could have worked it out if you'd dropped the big man attitude that you were Right but you chose to stick to the argument that YOUR definition was the only one and then decided to start up about 'Such and such hasn't moved HIS ads!! It's NOT FAIR!" comments.[QUOTE]

I personally like "The Jerk" method: "I'm leaving, and I don't need you... and I don't need this lamp, oh, I do need this lamp... and that's all I need. Oh and this pen. This lamp and this pen are all I need... oh, and this dog. This lamp, this pen, and this dog are all I need..."

[charleshanklin]

When I first saw the title I thought you got the boot for the way you are condescending on the forums. You are lucky they didn't give you the boot sooner for being a complete A-hole to people all the time claiming you are joking. You even did it while posting in the wrong forum. You sling insults at other posters and ride a high horse coming across that you are better then everyone. Now you are adding your litle snide insults in hear by calling his moderators his minions. Do you think that about all moderators?



It boils down to how much of a purist you are or aren't and is all a matter of opinion. I personally see the snakes you are talking about as hybrids. Jeff B being a gbk man most likely sees them the same as do many others and there are plenty that don't. It's barringers site and that's the way he wanted it. If you didn't want It like that then make up your own site and do it your way. If you wanted to post on ks then do it his way. It's that simple. This is another case of shut your mouth and get along.

[Jeff Schofield]

BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC. Well we all have excuses. Jeff B was sick, my Patriots just lost. By the time he changed the heading I was already kicked off so there was no chance for me to back down. No chance. We all like being right, me more than most I guess. Bottom line I was responding as a paying customer asking for a defintion for not just me...but everyone. As usual I was misunderstood. I sincerely thought I was doing him a favor not the other way around. The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around. YES, its his site, but I usually deal with mods and people who know me, who know that I am a sarcastic bastard who is easy going until someone is just plain wrong. I dont like stupid people. A hybrid is different from a intergrade which is different from a "pure" animal.....if those even exist at all in the wild or in captivity. The only reason there are so many definitions between those in the hobby, on this board or following this thread is because many arent educated enough in the issue. Most dont know what a GENUS is, what a SPECIES is, what a SUBSPECIES is or what a LOCALE is.....yet that doesnt stop them from voicing their uneducated opinion as if being right was democratic.BEING RIGHT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. Jumpin Jiminy. I enjoy an intelligent arguement and I can accept someone who uses logic to state their position. "Its my site" might be logical looking back, but if thats how you have to win an arguement shame on you. Grow up. I accept that there are a lot of people smarter than me, and I am willing to point them out when they demonstrate it. I didnt make the crosses, intergrades or whatever, I like em and keep em and sell the ones I dont want on websites that will let me. I am not alone, alot of people keep em now. If you dont want em how tough is it to skip the ad? Its not like they are misrepresented. Zenny has a thread very similar to the one that got me kicked off Kingsnake in the forum now. Bay Area reptiles just renamed his snakes, same snakes as miine. We will see how selective the enforcement is. But can we all try and understand this thread not just complain about it? Please.

[bayoucityboas]

My only 2 cents of a question Is why are there not other crosses in this new section.
the OP is correct in saying that there are not any boa crosses in this category.
This is just a statement the op stated and has not really been addressed what everyones take on that.

[Jeff Schofield]

Not singling you out but you provided a good point on which to expand the discussion.

The problem with people and reptiles is that we have a history of animals in the wild mixing genes which in a number of cases were once listed as their own species and in a number of cases form "zones of intergradation" in the wild. The thing many people forget is that the intergrade breedings in the wild are often different than those that occur in captivity. Breeding a New Jersey getulus and a goini may when one looks at the names on paper appear to be the same as the southern most getulus breeding with a goini but in reality there are significant genetic differences. So these crosses should not be viewed as being the same as those that occur in the wild. As some versions of these intergrades occur naturally in the wild, there is a position by some people that these are not "hybrids" however if we look to other systems of accepted nomenclature there is a good bit of evidence that they should be considered hybrids.

There are recognized nomenclature systems that deal this issue and have standards which could be adopted and used. For example; in plant cultivation these crosses are listed by cross (for example goini x getulus). In the older plant literature, the crosses were listed by sex (pollen donor to receiver) but this convention is no longer required. However it should be noted that under plant cultivation the above cross would be considered a hybrid.

When one looks into domestic animal breeding, there is also a couple of applicable conventions that can be accepted and used. Crosses between localities that are not considered separate subspecies (this is the grey band example provided by a different poster above) would be considered to be crossbreeds and not intergrades or hybrids. In domestic animals this is signified by listing the two breeds with a cross in the middle (although dog breeders coin new names by combining them (ex labradoodle versus goldendoodle). Normally the male is listed first. (there is actually a decent explanation here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbreed) however it should be noted that crosses between different subspecies under these conventions are also considered to be hybrids.

So to shorten it up.. crosses between species and/or subspecies are hybrids (under the above rules), crosses within a subspecies (or a species with no subspecies) are considered crossbreds (but not hybrids). As a result care should be taken when listing a snake as an intergrade as unless the parental stock actually came from the intergradation zone, the genes will be different and not a true intergrade hence the designation of hybrid...

I missed the posts on kingsnake so I'm guessing that they were deleted but based on the above conventions, it appears that kingsnake did have the correct position on the crosses.

Ed
Ed Kowalski

Ed, I think when it comes to DNA....there isnt any noticable difference between and of the ssp. never mind intergrades of them. I think if most people knew this they wouldnt make such a big deal. Dont get me wrong, I am talking about morph integration only, I wouldnt cross a x b simply for kicks. The sooner people accept that we are talking about domestic cultivars the easier it will be to deal them. I think most can understand this....and I dont say that to be better than anyone, I just enjoy intelligent arguements. Thanks. J

[Jeff Schofield]

My only 2 cents of a question Is why are there not other crosses in this new section.
the OP is correct in saying that there are not any boa crosses in this category.
This is just a statement the op stated and has not really been addressed what everyones take on that.

Back on topic!! Amazing! Thanks!

[akonitony]

YES, its his site, but I usually deal with mods and people who know me, who know that I am a sarcastic bastard who is easy going until someone is just plain wrong. I dont like stupid people.

So are you saying your earlier quotation telling us about the genus pantherophis is right? Only reason I'm asking is I wonder who is calling the kettle black here. Just for the record here, I is edumakated and went to a good kolidge, just so you no.

[Southern Wolf]

BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC. Well we all have excuses. Jeff B was sick, my Patriots just lost. By the time he changed the heading I was already kicked off so there was no chance for me to back down. No chance. We all like being right, me more than most I guess. Bottom line I was responding as a paying customer asking for a defintion for not just me...but everyone. As usual I was misunderstood. I sincerely thought I was doing him a favor not the other way around. The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around. YES, its his site, but I usually deal with mods and people who know me, who know that I am a sarcastic bastard who is easy going until someone is just plain wrong. I dont like stupid people. A hybrid is different from a intergrade which is different from a "pure" animal.....if those even exist at all in the wild or in captivity. The only reason there are so many definitions between those in the hobby, on this board or following this thread is because many arent educated enough in the issue. Most dont know what a GENUS is, what a SPECIES is, what a SUBSPECIES is or what a LOCALE is.....yet that doesnt stop them from voicing their uneducated opinion as if being right was democratic.BEING RIGHT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. Jumpin Jiminy. I enjoy an intelligent arguement and I can accept someone who uses logic to state their position. "Its my site" might be logical looking back, but if thats how you have to win an arguement shame on you. Grow up. I accept that there are a lot of people smarter than me, and I am willing to point them out when they demonstrate it. I didnt make the crosses, intergrades or whatever, I like em and keep em and sell the ones I dont want on websites that will let me. I am not alone, alot of people keep em now. If you dont want em how tough is it to skip the ad? Its not like they are misrepresented. Zenny has a thread very similar to the one that got me kicked off Kingsnake in the forum now. Bay Area reptiles just renamed his snakes, same snakes as miine. We will see how selective the enforcement is. But can we all try and understand this thread not just complain about it? Please.


If you want to keep digging a hole... feel free :yesnod:

by your logic I should sell corns and list them as miami x okeetee corns because they are a locality difference (used as an example only... as I dont have any miami corns)

The point Im trying to make is your starting in on me just like you did with Jeff B. You assume that you know it all and the person your talking to doesn't know squat. With that kind of attitude you wouldn't be welcome on my site either.

[Jeff Schofield]

So are you saying your earlier quotation telling us about the genus pantherophis is right? Only reason I'm asking is I wonder who is calling the kettle black here. Just for the record here, I is edumakated and went to a good kolidge, just so you no.

Hey, the response was more for the anyone considering "brooksi" kings as a SPECIES. I thought I explained Genus, Species, Subspecies pretty clear. Many have accepted Pantherophis for a while now, my bad for not knowing it not being 100% accepted. This is the reason for these boards, thanks.

[EdwardK]

Ed, I think when it comes to DNA....there isnt any noticable difference between and of the ssp. never mind intergrades of them. I think if most people knew this they wouldnt make such a big deal. Dont get me wrong, I am talking about morph integration only, I wouldnt cross a x b simply for kicks. The sooner people accept that we are talking about domestic cultivars the easier it will be to deal them. I think most can understand this....and I dont say that to be better than anyone, I just enjoy intelligent arguements. Thanks. J


Actually there are going to be differences in the genes as well as allele frequencies. There is a wide body of literature documenting these sorts of variations that are based on geography. For example see http://people.oregonstate.edu/~arnoldst/pdf_files/Arnold%201981a.pdf which discusses inherited dietary preferences in Thamnophis elegans. Another one can be seen here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15664323) where it showed that cold tolerance was dependent on where the snakes originated. These are inherited traits and why simple random crosses between two snakes of specific morph or subspecies cannot be considered intergrades as there can be significant differences in the genes compared to the true "intergrade" and why attempting to represent them as true intergrades is incorrect. True intergrades will have a genetic makeup that provides a survival advantage to the crossbred snake in the habitat in which is native. Crossbred/hybrids from random snakes of the two different parental types from outside of that zone will not carry the same genetic selections and should not be represented as true intergrades. Those are hybrids and should be represented as such.

Ed

[JETZEN]

I, Jeff Schofield, have been a user and paying patron of Kingsnake.com classifieds for about 7-8 years, maybe longer. I have had the usual forum run ins with trolls, and have had maybe 2 questionable transactions out of hundreds from the classifieds. My account and standing was pretty impeccable til last week, here is what happened:

I got a email from Jeff Barringer saying that my ads were moved from the KINGSNAKES catagory and placed in the HYBRIDS catagory. Now most of us know anything labelled HYBRID can affect your business reputation significantly. At the same time Jeff B went on the KINGSNAKE forum and informed people of the new HYBRID section. I responded to him there saying his term was incorrect on my snakes in particular(they are considered INTERGRADES), so he added "and INTERGRADES" to that same catagory. To this I responded that it was hypocritical to place such ads there considering that there are hybrids of many types in other catagories such as CROCODILIANS, BOA CONSTRICTORS, CARPET PYTHONS, OTHER SNAKES, and others just to name a few. He didnt go on any of those forums asking people to move their ads. In pointing this out to him I asked for a working definition FROM HIM so that we all can comply with the TOS and that everything is fair and we are playing on a level playing field. I copied and pasted about 20 ads from some of the biggest names in the industry who were advertising hybrids including Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro exotics and others. He responded by closing my account and removing me from his site saying more than once that I was telling him how to run his business. Now by calling my snakes HYBRIDS he has damaged my business, and by unjustly removing me he has damaged it even more. I have all correspondence from him on the matter, not much to argue from his point of view. But as a paying customer of many years in good standing I would expect some level of CUSTOMER SERVICE from him or one of his minions. Am I wrong? Is this LEGAL? As it stands right now there are an aweful lot of hybrids for sale on his site not in the HYBRIDS section including some of the exact snakes I was selling still in the KINGSNAKE section. I waited a week before posting here because he said he had pneumonia so maybe he would see his error and reconsider which he hasnt. He said that my asking to be reinstated was me telling him how to run his business!! Comments and suggestions please!!

hi jeff,
if you don't like the service at ks.com then be rid of it. ks.com is way overated anyway and there are lot of other sites with classifieds that would love to accomadate you and your excellent looking animals.
whats the purpose of being customer if if you're not happy with what you're getting?

[Jeff Schofield]

If you want to keep digging a hole... feel free :yesnod:

by your logic I should sell corns and list them as miami x okeetee corns because they are a locality difference (used as an example only... as I dont have any miami corns)

The point Im trying to make is your starting in on me just like you did with Jeff B. You assume that you know it all and the person your talking to doesn't know squat. With that kind of attitude you wouldn't be welcome on my site either.

No, not digging any holes. I think you should be able to call your corns anything you want as long as you honestly represent them. I think you should be able to put ANY kind of corns in the CORNSNAKE classifieds. Unless you have demonstrated knowing the difference I would be equally wrong to assume you knew EVERYTHING right than knowing nothing right? Its a matter of perspective, if you want to be a victim be a victim....if you want to have an intelligent conversation do that. If I post in a forum and want to get through to the most people I would assume that not everyone knew as much about the subject as me, but some may know more. I want to educate those who dont know as much and at the same time have an intelligent arguement with those qualified. I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it. Educating the educated rubs them the wrong way and trying to have an intelligent arguement with those who dont know is frustrating....My arguement with Jeff B was that he demonstrated not knowing the difference, or not caring or both. These subtle differences are important to me and to many like me. I think you would be frustrated if you found your locale crosses in the INTERGRADE section right?

[akonitony]

Hey, the response was more for the anyone considering "brooksi" kings as a SPECIES. I thought I explained Genus, Species, Subspecies pretty clear. Many have accepted Pantherophis for a while now, my bad for not knowing it not being 100% accepted. This is the reason for these boards, thanks.

So you were wrong Jeff. It happens to the best of us. But the problem is even when you are wrong, you tend to keep defending your position. Case in point, the above quotation. Rather than say, "Hey, thanks for letting me know that. I was wrong.", or something like that, you barely concede by saying there are many people who agree with you, and your bad not knowing it is "...not 100% accepted." This makes it look like those that were right are in the minority, and you are in fact correct since it is accepted by many. The plain facts in this little example are it is not an accepted genus, and you were 100% wrong, and you need to admit that rather than defending being wrong any further. However, until you can learn just because someone is wrong, they are not stupid, you will probably continue to have these problems more often than not, which is something else you eluded to in one of your recent posts. I don't think you are stupid, after all, for being wrong. Probably 90% of what I have learned was via mistakes. If you ask my wife, it is probably closer to 98%. The more you now defend you position with KS, when you originally asked for advice or opinions, the more you make yourself look condescending, and the more likely you will tend to alienate your peers. Why didn't you just start out in the beginning with: Please advise only if you agree with me?

[Southern Wolf]

No, not digging any holes. I think you should be able to call your corns anything you want as long as you honestly represent them. I think you should be able to put ANY kind of corns in the CORNSNAKE classifieds. Unless you have demonstrated knowing the difference I would be equally wrong to assume you knew EVERYTHING right than knowing nothing right? Its a matter of perspective, if you want to be a victim be a victim....if you want to have an intelligent conversation do that. If I post in a forum and want to get through to the most people I would assume that not everyone knew as much about the subject as me, but some may know more. I want to educate those who dont know as much and at the same time have an intelligent arguement with those qualified. I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it. Educating the educated rubs them the wrong way and trying to have an intelligent arguement with those who dont know is frustrating....My arguement with Jeff B was that he demonstrated not knowing the difference, or not caring or both. These subtle differences are important to me and to many like me. I think you would be frustrated if you found your locale crosses in the INTERGRADE section right?

So what your saying is I should be able to but a Turbo Corn in the corns section... or a RootBeer Corn in the corn section?

The part that I bolded just leads me to believe that you think you know more than most folks. Have a good day with your greather than thou attitude. I know someone else with your mindset. He finally rubed enough folks the wrong way and he is no longer welcome on our site.

You may say you want to educate... but it's how your going about it. If you hang onto the... Im smarter than you attitude and what I say is gospil... then you'll have folks that refuse to listen to you no matter what the subject. The person I am refering to used to be a good friend of mine and I defended him for years because he is a very smart individual and knows what he is talking about. However... he also tried to lie on me to make himself look better.... that's when I kicked him to the curb.

Your attitude and this post above reminds me alot of him. I'll be the first to admit that I dont know everything... but I can promise you... with your attitude you'll never school me. I would be willing to bet there are alot of us out there with the same mindset.

You say
I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it.

The problem is... most folks will see it that way. You come off greater than thou. Especially in this post.

[akonitony]

[QUOTE=Jeff Schofield;1192189] I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it. [QUOTE]

Oh, in that case we definitely won't think it sounds superior then. You assured us, and what you say goes.

Your honor, the defense rests.

[Southern Wolf]

Jeff since you think your smarter than me.... let me toss something out at you.

INTERGRADE -- when two species that share the same range are closely enough related that they breed. Cornsnake x Ratsnake. Take it one step farther. There are intergrades of sub species. Two different ratsnakes breeding. To be an intergrade it happens out in nature.

HYBRIDS -- when two species are crossed that would not normally breed with each other. King x Cornsnake or any other combination that is man made. Someone mentioned that some of what you work with dont share the same local... how are those intergrades? They cant be.... it wouldn't ever happen in nature... they are not in the same range. Those are hybrids.

The term INTERGRADES was used to denote a natural crossing of species / subspecies. If YOUR breeding them .. then its not natural. Thus they should be hybrids.

[ophidile]

So what your saying is I should be able to but a Turbo Corn in the corns section... or a RootBeer Corn in the corn section?

I admit, I usually expect to see creams/rootbeers in the corns section, and don't mind seeing the crazier hybrids either.
It sounds like this new kingsnake catagory's going to add a lot of headache and grief, but I think that's up for Jeff to decide and deal with. It does seem strange to me to make it its own category rather than a subsection of each. A creamsicle corn, or even a jungle corn, has a lot more in common with corns than with a Boelens python cross.

But I think the OP ought to have stated their case much more politely. What I've read here does sound quite demanding and it seems the owner of kingsnake isn't the sort to ignore that.

Ehhh I just use it to keep track of local events anyway.

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff since you think your smarter than me.... let me toss something out at you.

INTERGRADE -- when two species that share the same range are closely enough related that they breed. Cornsnake x Ratsnake. Take it one step farther. There are intergrades of sub species. Two different ratsnakes breeding. To be an intergrade it happens out in nature.

HYBRIDS -- when two species are crossed that would not normally breed with each other. King x Cornsnake or any other combination that is man made. Someone mentioned that some of what you work with dont share the same local... how are those intergrades? They cant be.... it wouldn't ever happen in nature... they are not in the same range. Those are hybrids.

The term INTERGRADES was used to denote a natural crossing of species / subspecies. If YOUR breeding them .. then its not natural. Thus they should be hybrids.

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

[East_Coast]

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

[scaledverts]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

WOW.....just WOW. The bolded part embodies why you are in this situation to begin with! Your OPINION about a subject is the right one and everyone else just doesn't know what they are talking about.

:bandhead0:bandhead0

You seem to be continuing to :shootfoot


Oh well :shrug01: what can you do

[JETZEN]

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.



what are you doing here JOLLES aka "sweetpickle"? i thought you were banned from causing trouble. AH!!!hahahahahah-ha-ha,lolol!!!

[akonitony]

Now-now, don't take just one sentence out of a well-thought-out posting. You need to include other vital information like his degrees and experience.
I bet my degrees can kick your degrees butt!

[WebSlave]

Quit with the personal attacks and name calling, please. If you cannot converse without doing so, I strongly suggest you find somewhere else to play. :NoNo:

[Southern Wolf]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.

How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

[Southern Wolf]

Rich... I was typing up my post when you posted.. .and I dont think it fits your critera... but if it does... I apologize.

[EdwardK]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.


Which definition of species includes as part of the definition that species cannot intergrade? Please supply a reference from a substantial source (Reptiles Magazine is not a substantial source in this case). I'll challenge it with the lengthy definition out of Herpetology, An Introductory Biology of Amphibians and Reptiles; Academic Press, 2001 which does not include any such language..

Ed

Ed

[RCampbell]

Jeff,

It seems to me that you reacted out of irritation, frustration and anger. That hostility left the other Jeff backed into a corner with no action left, by your insistence.
I am not even dealing with the taxonomic discussion but rather your immediate and I feel seriously flawed view of your role as a customer.

Thinking that a company you pay to advertise with as working for you is seriously flawed.
I assure you that when advertising in the New York Post or other large newspapers, the editors and owners don't consider you upper echelon in the company.

KS doesn't work for ANYONE BUT KS. Your ability to post adds is a way for you to work for yourself and advertise to a large market, that's why you don't get a paycheck from KS. Also why you don't send paychecks to people who pay you for snakes, do you work for them since they are paying customers?

Obviously customer service is important. Making sure customers feel appreciated and taking time to answer questions or other issues helps maintain relationships. In this instance you obviously felt slighted, and unfairly targeted....but your approach and your perceived position were enough to grate on anyone and create tension. Creating tension does not allow for constructive dialogue.

I don't know you and I am not attacking you at all here Jeff. I have lived long enough to have had some life experience teach me that raising hackles and snapping off are not the best course of action. We have all done it, especially when we feel we feel we are "in the right". I post in response to this only to have you step back and look at the situation and your knee-jerk reaction, and see it accomplished nothing constructive, and hope you learn from it.

-Riley Campbell

[TriangleReptiles]

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

So if my wild caught desert king breeds with my wild caught speckled king in my snake room, the offspring are hybrid? And if the same two snakes had bred in the wild (as they often do in Texas), the offspring are intergrades? I'm not buying that arguement.

[Southern Wolf]

Greg....

Intergrades happen IN NATURE. They originally applied the term intergrade to apply to snakes found that showed characterists of two species / sub-species of snakes.

If man puts those animals together in capativity... then man is creating hybrids. Like it or not... that is what your doing. Intergrades happen because of natural selection. There is no natural selection in our snake rooms. Everything is done by our hand. Unless of course your housing your kings together all the time... and that's a whole nother topic.

[akonitony]

Unless of course your housing your kings together all the time... and that's a whole nother topic.

What about taking bubble-baths with them? :censored:

[akonitony]

Boy, it got quite in here all the sudden... Guess I'll go take a bath. Think I'll go with lavender tonight...
Before I go, is there any way the OP can still put one of those vote meters on this thread. I was just thinking if he put it to the vote for two areas, we might be able to settle the basic question this thread begs:
1) Do you agree Jeff S. was correct (more so than Jeff B)?
2) Do you think Jeff B. was more correct?
Actually we can do that now. 1 or 2?

[TriangleReptiles]

Greg....

Intergrades happen IN NATURE. They originally applied the term intergrade to apply to snakes found that showed characterists of two species / sub-species of snakes.

If man puts those animals together in capativity... then man is creating hybrids. Like it or not... that is what your doing. Intergrades happen because of natural selection. There is no natural selection in our snake rooms. Everything is done by our hand. Unless of course your housing your kings together all the time... and that's a whole nother topic.

Kevin, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my book, L.g. splendida X L.g.holbrooki is an intergrade, whether it happens in the wild, in my snakeroom or anywhere else. A sinacorn or "royal corn" is a hybrid. I don't have a microscope with me, so I just can't split that fine of a hair. I respect your position, just don't necessarily agree.

[Southern Wolf]

Kevin, we'll just have to agree to disagree. In my book, L.g. splendida X L.g.holbrooki is an intergrade, whether it happens in the wild, in my snakeroom or anywhere else. A sinacorn or "royal corn" is a hybrid. I don't have a microscope with me, so I just can't split that fine of a hair. I respect your position, just don't necessarily agree.

Greg... I'm willing to listen to what you have to say. PM me and show me the flaws in my logic. I say PM that way we dont get dinged for OT chatter.

[Wraith]

BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC.

The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around.

It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong and democracy has nothing to do with this. You only paid him for the privilege of being able to post ads on his site. HE owns the site, HE makes the rules, HE decides where the ads go - NOT you.

If you don't like the owner, don't like rules, don't like the organization, then go start your own website with your own classifieds and do it the way you want it to be done instead of continuing to whine about how Jeff B is doing it.

[Maligator]

Parents and teachers alike will attest to this one statement: Life's not fair - get over it. Fortunately for the OP, KS.com isn't the only site to sell hybrids or intergrades or fire-breathing dragons or whatever the ads were about.

I can understand how being affected by a changing site is disappointing and maybe even grounds for a little resentment. However, it might be wise to stop obsessing about what the site change is doing to your business and maybe think about what your reaction to it is doing to your business.

Because frankly, I'm put off and I doubt I'm the only one.

[akonitony]

If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period.

... and modest too! :thumbsup:

[JColt]

I was once real sick with Mononucleosis. Very sick. I remember I didn't take compliments well, let alone criticism. You probably came on too strong. I will say though that a Hybrid forum should include only species of different genus. I would have Intergrade under each appropriate genus IE King Intergrade, Corn Intergrade... But that's just me and I don't own KS ;)

[JETZEN]

Quit with the personal attacks and name calling, please. If you cannot converse without doing so, I strongly suggest you find somewhere else to play. :NoNo:


i hope this isn't directed at me? for calling Jolles "sweetpickle" it's his old screen name that he gave himself on ks.

[poppy]

Who cares anymore.:shrug01:

[BobOblak]

Does the KS hybrid policy only apply to snakes?
I noticed Glades has a running ad for Caiman sclerops X yacariensis in the croc category and not the hybrid/integrade category. There are other croc hybrids listed in the croc classifieds from time to time as well. Just sayin'

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff,

It seems to me that you reacted out of irritation, frustration and anger. That hostility left the other Jeff backed into a corner with no action left, by your insistence.
I am not even dealing with the taxonomic discussion but rather your immediate and I feel seriously flawed view of your role as a customer.

Thinking that a company you pay to advertise with as working for you is seriously flawed.
I assure you that when advertising in the New York Post or other large newspapers, the editors and owners don't consider you upper echelon in the company.

KS doesn't work for ANYONE BUT KS. Your ability to post adds is a way for you to work for yourself and advertise to a large market, that's why you don't get a paycheck from KS. Also why you don't send paychecks to people who pay you for snakes, do you work for them since they are paying customers?

Obviously customer service is important. Making sure customers feel appreciated and taking time to answer questions or other issues helps maintain relationships. In this instance you obviously felt slighted, and unfairly targeted....but your approach and your perceived position were enough to grate on anyone and create tension. Creating tension does not allow for constructive dialogue.

I don't know you and I am not attacking you at all here Jeff. I have lived long enough to have had some life experience teach me that raising hackles and snapping off are not the best course of action. We have all done it, especially when we feel we feel we are "in the right". I post in response to this only to have you step back and look at the situation and your knee-jerk reaction, and see it accomplished nothing constructive, and hope you learn from it.

-Riley Campbell

Riley, I think you more than anyone that has followed has hit the nail on the head. This post was about a horrible CUSTOMER SERVICE experience. For those who go into business with ks.com they should know how such complaints or misunderstandings are handled. If I put an ad in the post and paid for front page and got page 3 I would be equally railed, and for good reason. I pay for a service and I deserve the opportunity to have a dialogue with the boss in such an instance that the service changes without repercussions, I deserve an answer to the definition of HYBRID for the site. One that doesnt exist right now anywhere that I know of. Right now someone else has taken the same torch up the same hill for the same reason on the kingsnake forum. Why? Because a logical working answer doesnt exist. I hope this thread can be constructive in that end and it should be very obvious. Thanks for bringing us back on topic!

[akonitony]

I agree with post #93. Riley covered all the bases. But Jeff, you still seem to focus on what the other guy did wrong, or maybe that's just me? I once, a long-long time ago in a galaxy far-far away, was the sales manager for the front half of pretty well-known herpetology supply store. I was made manager not only because the owner thought I could answer most of the questions to give the customers security we knew what we were doing, but also because I went by that motto posted earlier in thread somewhere: The customer is always right. Even when I had to deal with a flaming jackass, I would always keep my cool and let them be the ones who lost it. We also were not afraid to take back an animal, provided it was still alive and at least half-way healthy, and give a full refund if that was what the customer wanted. I think the best working definition for your position with Jeff B is that of a client. You have customers, and yes you do work for them by providing good quality animals and any services or pruducts you can add as well. But you are Jeff B's client, and as such, he needs to provide you with the service he agreed to with his TOS agreement. He does not have to kiss your butt or compliment you on the odor of your flatulence, but he does need to provide you, the client, with at least the very bare minimum of the standards of practice for his service. That being said, can you honestly say he did not meets those standards, and if not, what specifically was he lacking? You also need to keep in mind it takes two to tango. You met his minimum standards by paying the fees he required, but did you go out of bounds by telling him how to do his job, and not stick to your area of specialty? I think the answer is yes to the latter, and no to the former.
So here you are now some 10 pages later in this thread that would give anyone with ADHA a nightmare (Must... Stay.... Focused...), and it seems you are no closer to figuring out a solution when it has been staring you in the face all along. When you did not accept Jeff B's new TOS, which he is allowed to change at any given time, you had the choice to get a refund, which is one of the things he offered to you, or accept a compromise with the additional title of intergrade, which he was willing to offer. If I was not sick, and it was the middle of the afternoon, I was gatting a manicure and pedicure by some very hot asian, oh sorry honey, Venezuelan women, and one of my clients started telling me I HAD to do to something they wanted me to do, I would have not given a choice in the matter at all. You would have a check for the prorated amount left on your account in the mail that afternoon, and I would not want to speak to you again. How Jeff B kept as cool and calm as he did is a amazing feat, especially when he was the one with pneumonia.
At this juncture in time, I think any arguments regarding hybrids or intergrades, or outergrades or even in-betweengrades is moot. Jeff basically can do like that chickipoo married to George Clooney in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? when they start arguing and he tells her she can't do something. "I can and I will, I've said my piece, and counted to three." and that was it. From that point on, it was obvious in your emails with Jeff B you were only getting on his last nerve. This is why my very first post contained the advice to never call him again. Maybe you will run into him at an expo and you two can kiss and makeup. But, especially if he gets wind of this thread, I am very sure your bridge to KS is burned, buried and turned to compost by now. The next thing I would do if I were you is admit you acted irrationally, and thank everyone here for sticking to it until you have possibly seen the light, even if it is an oncoming train...
I know at your age, listed at 44, the clock is now ticking as far as income increases go. I would be very careful choosing my words from here on out. You can either make some friends here, and everyone needs them, or you can try to show how much more you know than they possibly could. I think I can safely generalize when I say as a whole, people who are interested in herpetology are smarter than the average bear. For one thing, it takes an open mind to start thinking reptiles are not the evil creatures many people make them out to be. It also takes intelligence to learn the husbandry techniques for many of these species who need to have things just so, or they won't poop.
Anyway, I do apologize if I have seemed to take this thread lightly at times, but I felt a little humor shed on the situation might calm down certain factions that might be getting ready to scream: "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter..."
I wish you luck with your business, friend. I also hope you will begin to wait for people to take notice of your intellect on their own initiative rather than telling them how smart you are. In other words: Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

[Abish]

BEING RIGHT ISNT DEMOCRATIC. Well we all have excuses. Jeff B was sick, my Patriots just lost. By the time he changed the heading I was already kicked off so there was no chance for me to back down. No chance. We all like being right, me more than most I guess. Bottom line I was responding as a paying customer asking for a defintion for not just me...but everyone. As usual I was misunderstood. I sincerely thought I was doing him a favor not the other way around. The way I look at it is...... I PAID him, he was working for ME not the other way around. YES, its his site, but I usually deal with mods and people who know me, who know that I am a sarcastic bastard who is easy going until someone is just plain wrong. I dont like stupid people. A hybrid is different from a intergrade which is different from a "pure" animal.....if those even exist at all in the wild or in captivity. The only reason there are so many definitions between those in the hobby, on this board or following this thread is because many arent educated enough in the issue. Most dont know what a GENUS is, what a SPECIES is, what a SUBSPECIES is or what a LOCALE is.....yet that doesnt stop them from voicing their uneducated opinion as if being right was democratic.BEING RIGHT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC. Jumpin Jiminy. I enjoy an intelligent arguement and I can accept someone who uses logic to state their position. "Its my site" might be logical looking back, but if thats how you have to win an arguement shame on you. Grow up. I accept that there are a lot of people smarter than me, and I am willing to point them out when they demonstrate it. I didnt make the crosses, intergrades or whatever, I like em and keep em and sell the ones I dont want on websites that will let me. I am not alone, alot of people keep em now. If you dont want em how tough is it to skip the ad? Its not like they are misrepresented. Zenny has a thread very similar to the one that got me kicked off Kingsnake in the forum now. Bay Area reptiles just renamed his snakes, same snakes as miine. We will see how selective the enforcement is. But can we all try and understand this thread not just complain about it? Please.

The evidence you posted of your conversation with Jeff B contradicts this. He let you know he was changing it, and you responded with your lovely "can't have it both ways!!"

Then he told you to choose refund or a suspension, and you responded again by complaining that he wasn't being hard enough on the boid people, and saying you were trying to help him 'do his job better'.

That is separate from anything you were posting on his forums.

I'd call that two prime opportunities to back down.

[JETZEN]

Does the KS hybrid policy only apply to snakes?
I noticed Glades has a running ad for Caiman sclerops X yacariensis in the croc category and not the hybrid/integrade category. There are other croc hybrids listed in the croc classifieds from time to time as well. Just sayin'

apparently so at least with Lampropeltis

[JETZEN]

Who cares anymore.:shrug01:

not me really, i hav'nt bought any reptiles online in years.

and i'm starting to dislike 97% of the reptile community more and more everday.

maybe i'll just quit the hobby and be a PETA volunteer,lol!!!

[Lucille]

not me really, i hav'nt bought any reptiles online in years.

and i'm starting to dislike 97% of the reptile community more and more everday.

maybe i'll just quit the hobby and be a PETA volunteer,lol!!!

We all have choices. Sometimes, when you are not happy with something, the easiest thing to do is just to duck out.
It's not always easy to know what to do.
A positive step might be to support a good breeder, buying from someone who loves what they do and does it well even though their prices might be a little higher, the result of high quality care.

Another step might be to stand up for the reptile sites that give good service.
Stepping back and looking at the forest rather than the trees, both ks and this site do a good job at weeding out spam, organizing their site, giving a good place for herpers to talk, buy, and sell. After all that effort no site manager is going to want someone disrespectfully arguing and second guessing although as I have said, I don't think a well placed respectful request would have any problem.

If you want the reptile community to improve, instead of leaving, maybe see what you can do as part of the community.

[The BoidSmith]

The evidence you posted of your conversation with Jeff B contradicts this. He let you know he was changing it, and you responded with your lovely "can't have it both ways!!"

Then he told you to choose refund or a suspension, and you responded again by complaining that he wasn't being hard enough on the boid people, and saying you were trying to help him 'do his job better'.

That is separate from anything you were posting on his forums.

I'd call that two prime opportunities to back down.

Excellent post Jessica. The conversation should have ended once Jeff B. added intergrades to the forum title. He did what he had to do for the forum to be all inclusive. The rest? Ego diatribe...

[Jeff Schofield]

Excellent post Jessica. The conversation should have ended once Jeff B. added intergrades to the forum title. He did what he had to do for the forum to be all inclusive. The rest? Ego diatribe...

Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.

[cobraman1]

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.

How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

I have to disagree with you here. Diamond back rattlesnakes and canebrakes have been documented for breeding in the wild. By your logic, they would be intergrades. Not true, they are Hybrids. Hybrids are not all man made. Eastern diamond backs and canbrakes are two different species. I believe (man made or natural) it takes two different species to create a hybrid. Just my opinion. I get Jeff being upset, even though he may have been a bit pushy with kingsnake, but why would kingsnake not care about the opinions of the people that keep them in business. I have a kingsnake account aswell and in dec they sent out any email asking what they could do to improve there website. they wanted to know the customers conserns, but why not now?

[Lucille]

It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol.

Unless you change your attitude, you are not going to be a plus to this site. There's a lot of collected knowledge here and more is always welcome, but you need to tweak your attitude before you will be accepted by very many here.

[David Scarboro]

Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.


But since you are going to be here, perhaps you would like to address the other customer service complaints trhat you have had. You can't complain about customer service with out cleaning up your own issues. There are threads on this board about it. Then we can bring up the thread where you lied several times about a trade we made. At that time you couldn't even tell the difference between a Red and Eastern Milk. Now you are an expert on taxonomy. Also let us not forget that you sent me an empty box. When you screw people here, they are allowed to tell about it. You have been a regular complainer to Jeff B at KS for years, but your cries here may fall on deaf ears...

[akonitony]

Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.

Ooooohh... pick me! Pick Me! Pick MEEEE!!!

[akonitony]

Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.

That's funny Jeff S. You a funny Man! I once dated a species for almost three months before I figured out Leos are the way to go! Welcome to Fuana!

[Southern Wolf]

I have to disagree with you here. Diamond back rattlesnakes and canebrakes have been documented for breeding in the wild. By your logic, they would be intergrades. Not true, they are Hybrids. Hybrids are not all man made. Eastern diamond backs and canbrakes are two different species. I believe (man made or natural) it takes two different species to create a hybrid. Just my opinion. I get Jeff being upset, even though he may have been a bit pushy with kingsnake, but why would kingsnake not care about the opinions of the people that keep them in business. I have a kingsnake account aswell and in dec they sent out any email asking what they could do to improve there website. they wanted to know the customers conserns, but why not now?

FYI... according to Dr. Frye's DNA research... Canebrakes and Timbers are the same animal. Canebrakes are like a color morph to the Timbers.

Yes... I too got the same email from KS. It's not that KS doesn't care about the opinions of their customers.. .its how he went about things. It doesn't matter where you are... if your gonna come at the boss (owner of a site)... you better come correct or your gonna be out on your ear. That's where he ended up... out on his ear.

I am a very vocal individual (dont believe it... ask Rich). If I dont agree with policy chage I will tell you and I will state my case. However the difference is ... I do so in a manner that is respectful and most of the time it is done in PM. Im not putting on a show for an audience... Im trying to get him to see things from another point of view.

If I came at Rich with the same mentality that Jeff went to KS with... I'd be out on the streets kicking rocks... not selling my snakes here.

[cobraman1]

FYI... according to Dr. Frye's DNA research... Canebrakes and Timbers are the same animal. Canebrakes are like a color morph to the Timbers.

Yes... I too got the same email from KS. It's not that KS doesn't care about the opinions of their customers.. .its how he went about things. It doesn't matter where you are... if your gonna come at the boss (owner of a site)... you better come correct or your gonna be out on your ear. That's where he ended up... out on his ear.

I am a very vocal individual (dont believe it... ask Rich). If I dont agree with policy chage I will tell you and I will state my case. However the difference is ... I do so in a manner that is respectful and most of the time it is done in PM. Im not putting on a show for an audience... Im trying to get him to see things from another point of view.

If I came at Rich with the same mentality that Jeff went to KS with... I'd be out on the streets kicking rocks... not selling my snakes here.

FYI..I never mentioned a timber rattlesnake. I said eastern diamondback rattlesnake. Not sure where you got timber from. Im fully aware of the canebrakes being associated with timbers.

I understand he went about it the wrong way and Im not defending that. Im simply saying that banning someone that is a paying member is a little far, especially when you just asked all paying members what they thought could be better.

[Southern Wolf]

FYI..I never mentioned a timber rattlesnake. I said eastern diamondback rattlesnake. Not sure where you got timber from. Im fully aware of the canebrakes being associated with timbers.

I understand he went about it the wrong way and Im not defending that. Im simply saying that banning someone that is a paying member is a little far, especially when you just asked all paying members what they thought could be better.

Nope.. .you mentioned crossing a diamondback with a canebrake.. .and thus since you wanted to argue about taxonomy... I thought it only fair to mention to you that Canebrakes ARE Timbers and has been proven by DNA research by a leading venomous researcher.

[cobraman1]

Nope.. .you mentioned crossing a diamondback with a canebrake.. .and thus since you wanted to argue about taxonomy... I thought it only fair to mention to you that Canebrakes ARE Timbers and has been proven by DNA research by a leading venomous researcher.

What does canbrakes being timbers have anything to do with diamond backs breeding with canbrakes/timbers? Your arguement doesnt make sense. Do you think a diamondback is a timber/canbrake? They are two very different species.

[Southern Wolf]

Let's see... Diamondback

**scratches head**

Crotalus adamanteus = Eastern Diamondback
Crotalus atrox = Western Diamondback
Crotalus horridus = Timber

Now you never said what kind of Diamondback... but that really doesn't matter. The key is you assumed I was an idiot... but I have had venomous training under a mentor.

What it all boils down to is symantics. Myself and several others use the term Hybrid in a stricter sense of the word. Those that actually push the boundries prefer the term intergrades so they wont be lumped in with the hard core hybrid folks (king x corn) or (Blood x Ball)

[cobraman1]

Let's see... Diamondback

**scratches head**

Crotalus adamanteus = Eastern Diamondback
Crotalus atrox = Western Diamondback
Crotalus horridus = Timber

Now you never said what kind of Diamondback... but that really doesn't matter. The key is you assumed I was an idiot... but I have had venomous training under a mentor.

What it all boils down to is symantics. Myself and several others use the term Hybrid in a stricter sense of the word. Those that actually push the boundries prefer the term intergrades so they wont be lumped in with the hard core hybrid folks (king x corn) or (Blood x Ball)

I didn't assume you were an idiot. I assumed you misread my post. There are three diamond back, astern, western, and red. They are all different species. A timber isn't one of the three diamondbacks. My whole point was that hybrids aren't just man made and intergrades aren't always nature made.

[KelliH]

I think you should just apologize to JeffB, admit you were an a$$, and hope he reinstates your account.

[Southern Wolf]

Kelli.... after this thread... I dont see Jeff B doing any of that. But it would be a nice gesture.

[Paige n' James]

Jeff S,
I am new to this site but just want to comment that you do sound like you "think" you know it all and were very condescending in your post to the Kingsnake moderator.(or was he the owner?) I re-read it to make sure that it couldn't have been taken another way but both times it came off very rude. It is always a constant learning curve when it comes to these awesome creatures.
The better way to go about it would have been to let him move them to the hybrid/integrade section and to give it a couple of weeks and to chart your sales to let him know the true way this has effected your business.
By talking OVER people and not listening to what they have to say (we all disagree and it is a given) you turned alot of people off to your business. I am by no means an expert on any of this but have lived pretty happily for 41 years using these strategies. I have spent 22 years in the military(Air Force) as well. V/R Paige

[The BoidSmith]

But since you are going to be here, perhaps you would like to address the other customer service complaints trhat you have had. You can't complain about customer service with out cleaning up your own issues. There are threads on this board about it. Then we can bring up the thread where you lied several times about a trade we made. At that time you couldn't even tell the difference between a Red and Eastern Milk. Now you are an expert on taxonomy. Also let us not forget that you sent me an empty box. When you screw people here, they are allowed to tell about it. You have been a regular complainer to Jeff B at KS for years, but your cries here may fall on deaf ears...

Most people here had probably forgotten about this, I had at least. Not looking good Jeff, you may want to start looking for greener pastures, "storm's-a-brewin' " :rolleyes_

[akonitony]

Most people here had probably forgotten about this, I had at least. Not looking good Jeff, you may want to start looking for greener pastures, "storm's-a-brewin' " :rolleyes_

Don't worry Jeff, we all know it was your evil twin, "Skippy", who has been typing all along. As soon as you regain control over your keyboard, set the record straight man!
Leave it alone Skippy, we are onto your evil plan!

[LauraB]

quote by Paige69
Jeff S,I am new to this site but just want to comment that you do sound like you "think" you know it all and were very condescending in your post to the Kingsnake moderator.(or was he the owner?)

Jeff B. is the owner of Kingnake. However, he is merely an employee of Jeff S. since Jeff S. paid to advertise there. :rofl:

It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.
Announced. How cute.

As if it is actually important to Fauna users that you figure out who to avoid, who the kids are, who the complainers are (and how ironic - YOU seem to be quite the boisterous complainer yourself, lol!) and who is skilled at matching wits/intellect with an bloated, arrogant ego. Yawn.

[akonitony]

As if it is actually important to Fauna users that you figure out who to avoid, who the kids are, who the complainers are (and how ironic - YOU seem to be quite the boisterous complainer yourself, lol!) and who is skilled at matching wits/intellect with an bloated, arrogant ego. Yawn.

Yeah... what she said!:thumbsup:

[Southern Wolf]

The part he hasn't figured out is.... the folks that he is going to avoid is thankful for that avoidance.

[akonitony]

I beleive the appropriate response for #119 above would be Touche'.

[LauraB]

Lest I be corrected by someone who feels compelled to prove they are always right and just trying to help, let me correct myself first please.:
who is skilled at matching wits/intellect with an bloated, arrogant ego.
That should read "who is skilled at matching wits/intellect with a bloated, arrogant ego."

Still having to type with my left hand - cast should come off next week. :)

[Jeff Schofield]

Does the KS hybrid policy only apply to snakes?
I noticed Glades has a running ad for Caiman sclerops X yacariensis in the croc category and not the hybrid/integrade category. There are other croc hybrids listed in the croc classifieds from time to time as well. Just sayin'

Thanks for getting back on topic. This is what the post is about, the fact that nothing has been corrected, amended or attempted. If you breed a king x a king its in the Hybrid section and if you truely produce hybrids....well, your ad doesnt have to move at all. Hypocrisy. Thanks.

[Jeff Schofield]

The evidence you posted of your conversation with Jeff B contradicts this. He let you know he was changing it, and you responded with your lovely "can't have it both ways!!"

Then he told you to choose refund or a suspension, and you responded again by complaining that he wasn't being hard enough on the boid people, and saying you were trying to help him 'do his job better'.

That is separate from anything you were posting on his forums.

I'd call that two prime opportunities to back down.

Yes, you saw the emails. What I cant show you is a simultaneous tet a tet on the forums that got erased. By the time he placed INTERGRADE into the equation my account had already been terminated.

[WebSlave]

How about keeping the personal pot shots and belittlement out of this thread, please. :NoNo:

[Jeff Schofield]

Unless you change your attitude, you are not going to be a plus to this site. There's a lot of collected knowledge here and more is always welcome, but you need to tweak your attitude before you will be accepted by very many here.

My attitude was announced prior to your followup. I am a sarcastic bastard. And when I post 8 hard hitting truths back to back to back and the next line ends in "LOL"......its called sarcasm. Look it up, it exists outside of CA where the weed smoking cuts its usefulness. I am trying to guage the collected knowledge, who is worth responding to, who is the class clown, and who are the B*tchers that always see the glass as half empty. Personally, I dont feel sorry for them. They breath our air, drink our beer and complain about someone actually sticking up for himself and others in public. Its good to take a stand, pick a side in a arguement and present your case. And its not always the side you choose but how you choose to present yourself. I'm ok if not everyone likes me because the ones that do are in for a treat, a fun ride! I do good things for good reasons with good people, but life isnt a popularity contest. The sooner you figure that out the easier it gets.

[MalinoisK9]

Hmm. So you were booted off of one online classified, now you have come to a new one and are doing one heck of a job of first impression. Unless my business marketing professors were wrong I'm not quite sure what this will do for your sales....

Sorry it's off topic, just pointing that out.

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff S,
I am new to this site but just want to comment that you do sound like you "think" you know it all and were very condescending in your post to the Kingsnake moderator.(or was he the owner?) I re-read it to make sure that it couldn't have been taken another way but both times it came off very rude. It is always a constant learning curve when it comes to these awesome creatures.
The better way to go about it would have been to let him move them to the hybrid/integrade section and to give it a couple of weeks and to chart your sales to let him know the true way this has effected your business.
By talking OVER people and not listening to what they have to say (we all disagree and it is a given) you turned alot of people off to your business. I am by no means an expert on any of this but have lived pretty happily for 41 years using these strategies. I have spent 22 years in the military(Air Force) as well. V/R Paige

Let me put this in a military perspective for you. If your CO asks you to put on a Iraqi uniform and fight against the US for a little while so you can see his point of view do you? NO, you fight for whats right and damn the consequences dont you?? I dont want any of my snakes cozying up to any HYBRIDS for 5 seconds for any reason and that should have been my call. I was raised to show that part of a man is sticking up for what you believe in, and just becuase a few people dont know what a INTERGRADE is doesnt mean my customers dont. I have some incredible snakes, I hope you see past all this bull to take a look at them in the classifieds some time soon! Thanks for your service!

[akonitony]

My attitude was announced prior to your followup. I am a sarcastic bastard. And when I post 8 hard hitting truths back to back to back and the next line ends in "LOL"......its called sarcasm. Look it up, it exists outside of CA where the weed smoking cuts its usefulness. I am trying to guage the collected knowledge, who is worth responding to, who is the class clown, and who are the B*tchers that always see the glass as half empty. Personally, I dont feel sorry for them. They breath our air, drink our beer and complain about someone actually sticking up for himself and others in public. Its good to take a stand, pick a side in a arguement and present your case. And its not always the side you choose but how you choose to present yourself. I'm ok if not everyone likes me because the ones that do are in for a treat, a fun ride! I do good things for good reasons with good people, but life isnt a popularity contest. The sooner you figure that out the easier it gets.

It puts the lotion into the basket, it does as it is told, or it gets the hose!:eek:

[Paige n' James]

Jeff,
I do understand where you are coming from just 100% believe you went about it the wrong way. Sticking up for yourself is one thing but not even giving it a chance to let the cards play out is another thing. We all get angry, feel wronged, are wronged at times but the smart (and lucrative since this is a business for you) thing to do is step back and try it. It, of course being Jeff(kingsnake owner) feels will improve his site.
I can guarantee you that there have been a bunch of times that the military has imposed rules and regulations on me that I totally disagree with but I really try to understand that is for a greater good. Be it for the sites or for the government. You are very welcome and thank you for thanking me. I am sure we all know we are lucky to be here in the USA. : ). Btw - both this site and Kingsnake are great for totally different
things and some co-mingle.

[akonitony]

Jeff, for what it is worth, I actually empathize with you a great deal. However, when I read some of the pretty far-out things you are typing, well, I find it harder to take you seriously there brother. In all honesty, and this is by no means of malicious intent, I really thought you were right around 16 to 19 years old until I looked at your profile. The only reason I did that is because you mentioned your degrees in one of your posts, which is also what someone who may have just graduated from college might do, but probably would not. I'm not sure if you are married or have a significant other, but I too have had problems with typing something I was thinking at the moment, but should have kept away from the keyboard. Actually, that is a thing you and I have in common in a big way, but the difference is I am learning not to be so impulsive, and it appears you don't seem to be aware of the problem. One way I found to double check myself is to ask my wife to read some of the things I write before I mail them off or post them. She has a much higher social intellect than I do, and since we all have our own idiosyncracies, I don't mind admitting it.
The whole hybrid/intergrade thing has been hashed out to the point where all anyone is doing is repeating things that have already been typed at least once, but in most cases several times. Seriously, look back over this thread and see if you can find anything to bring to light on the subject that has not been already said, and I'll be glad to reason with you all you want. But if you can't find anything new to bring to that game, why not either close the thread, or focus on some of the other issues here like the fact you are having problems fitting in to your new 'hood? Believe it or not, I am pretty sure a vast majority of the people subscribing to this thread would truly like to help you. I know I would, and I can show you so in one of my first posts, but it gets kind of old if all your going to do is go back to how you were wronged by Jeff B. As far as that goes, just about everyone has said they think it is a jagged pill to swallow, but you basically blew it with your attitude. You need to remember when you are typing away here nobody can see your facial expressions or hear your tone, and approximately 90% of communication is non-verbal, so that leaves you with 10% of your normal ability to communicate in person. Hopefully keeping this simple fact in mind's eye will assist you.

[DavidBeard]

Man, as opposed as you are to having your animals associated with being labeled hybrids, you make no qualms with having your animals being labeled as belonging to a pompous fire starter.

[Lucille]

But since you are going to be here, perhaps you would like to address the other customer service complaints trhat you have had. You can't complain about customer service with out cleaning up your own issues. There are threads on this board about it. Then we can bring up the thread where you lied several times about a trade we made. At that time you couldn't even tell the difference between a Red and Eastern Milk. Now you are an expert on taxonomy. Also let us not forget that you sent me an empty box. When you screw people here, they are allowed to tell about it. You have been a regular complainer to Jeff B at KS for years, but your cries here may fall on deaf ears...

Thank you for bringing up this history. It helps those of us who were not aware, that the OP has more issues than classified ads.

[David Scarboro]

Thank you Lucille.
Anyone wanting to take the time to read them will find other threads on this board about Mr. Schofield. He always comes across like this. If you don't agree with him (and many didn't) you are an idiot, ala Dan Scolaro. He is also very selective about who and what he responds to, kind of like Ed Clark. His animals are the best, (especially the ones he stole from me) and he will gladly tell you so. He spent years berating other people on the boards at KS, and was pretty much a reporter for Jeff B. I guess Mr. Barringer didn't appreciate it as much as Mr. Schofield thought.:rofl:

[East_Coast]

...and just becuase a few people dont know what a INTERGRADE is doesnt mean my customers dont...

Jeff, With all due respect, I think you either don't get it or refuse to "get it" because it gets in the way of $$$.

Many people see the mixing of animals that would not normally cross paths in the wild as something that should not be bred. BECAUSE... you don't know what happens to the animal after you sell it or trade it or whatever. Example: you unethically breed a Florida King with a banded California King... Then you sell the babies as crosses and the next guy breeds one of the mutts with a wild-caught Florida King and the babies look a lot more like a Florida King than a Cal King ---- so he sells all the babies as Florida Kings.

Also, I read the sad story of what you sent to David Scarborro.
Wow... Simply wow. I would never buy even a tic-tac from you. I read most of it but the most amazing part was that you sent a snake to him in a dirty gym sock with holes in it. That takes the cake.

Jeff you are one incredible individual and I think that actually JeffB was probably glad that you gave him the reason to boot you. All we get to see is this latest issue you have with him. I would bet that you have probably caused a lot of trouble for JeffB and KS.com, off and on, the whole time you have been on that site.

[mic6010]

******************
Post removed - Violation of FULL NAME RULE. - WebSlave
You have been warned before about this.
******************

[The BoidSmith]

Thank you Lucille.
Anyone wanting to take the time to read them will find other threads on this board about Mr. Schofield. He always comes across like this. If you don't agree with him (and many didn't) you are an idiot, ala Dan Scolaro. He is also very selective about who and what he responds to, kind of like Ed Clark. His animals are the best, (especially the ones he stole from me) and he will gladly tell you so. He spent years berating other people on the boards at KS, and was pretty much a reporter for Jeff B. I guess Mr. Barringer didn't appreciate it as much as Mr. Schofield thought.:rofl:

You might be overdoing it here...at least Dan Scolaro is still posting ads in KS :yesnod:

[EdwardK]

No thats not true, if you take two snakes that overlap and breed in the wild as Intergrades they are still intergrades when you breed them in captivity.
Just because you change the setting and "set" them up so to speak doesn't mean you made a diffenent animal.

When looking at intergrade zones, these are the result of genes from that zone combining to produce a unique combination that conveys some survivial advantage (as many natural intergrades are self-sufficient populations (example coastal plains milksnakes)) on the offspring. On paper as a simple cross it may look to be the same but in reality it isn't. There are differences in the genetic makeup between animals from different parts of the range that will not produce the same genetic combination as those found in the zone(s) of intergradation. These differences can be morphological, behavioral or physiological and can include thermal tolerances or dietary preferences (see my earlier post for a couple of examples of genetic controlled variations). This is because herp populations often show what is known as clinal variations (see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline_(biology))...

Intergrades in their own way are a animal that is the result of specific conditions in nature much the same as specific locality morphs. If all crosses between the parental stock are really the same then people could cross Eastern milk snakes and scarlet kings and sell the offspring as pure temporalis totally ignoring the pressures that produced true temporalis.

Some thoughts,

Ed

[akonitony]

Jeff, With all due respect, I think you either don't get it or refuse to "get it" because it gets in the way of $$$.

Maybe this toll-free number will help: 1(800) get-clue.

[charleshanklin]

Can you please explain how he stole money from you?



Its easy to say stop the conversation when you got 30% of what you were paying for back.....at the time and still today there is no clear answer why if you breed hybrid boas you are allowed to post in the boa section but if you breed hybrid kings you cant sell em in the kingsnake section. If someone steals $100 from you are you happy when they give you back $30? $50?? NO, you want it all back or a very good reason why it was stolen to begin with. Alot of people can complain as to why I started this post but it has served its purpose. It has alerted people to the hypocrisy on ks.com, it has shown the level of customer service you can expect no matter if you are a paying member for 7-8 years.....my "14 cents a day"(more like 30 I think,lol)wont kill the owner of the website and he doesnt mind losing business. It shows many the direction of the business. It also announced that I am over here on Fauna now, and will be spending more time here. Get used to it,lol. I will figure out who are the complainers, kids, and the other people I'd rather avoid. It will show me who is skilled in a open minded arguement and who thinks a species is something you flush in the bathroom.

[WebSlave]

Can you please explain how he stole money from you?

Sorry, but please observe the topic of this thread and stay on topic. If there are any BOI relevant issues unrelated to this particular topic about other participants within this thread, then they really need to be IN a thread about them as the topic.

[charleshanklin]

Sorry, but please observe the topic of this thread and stay on topic. If there are any BOI relevant issues unrelated to this particular topic about other participants within this thread, then they really need to be IN a thread about them as the topic.



It sounded to me that He was implying the prorated refund Keff barringer gave him was stealing from him because he didn't get his whole payment back.

[Jeff Schofield]

It sounded to me that He was implying the prorated refund Keff barringer gave him was stealing from him because he didn't get his whole payment back.

Charles, I was making an analogy. I paid money to be able to post x, if I am not able to post x that certainly affects MY terms of service. I was not inferring any kind of stealing. BTW, I havent got my refund yet, more than a week later.

[Jeff Schofield]

It sounded to me that He was implying the prorated refund Keff barringer gave him was stealing from him because he didn't get his whole payment back.

Charles, I was making an analogy. I paid money to be able to post x, if I am not able to post x that certainly affects MY terms of service. I was not inferring any kind of stealing. BTW, I havent got my refund yet, more than a week later.

[WebSlave]

It sounded to me that He was implying the prorated refund Keff barringer gave him was stealing from him because he didn't get his whole payment back.

Sorry, my mistake.... :o

[akonitony]

Sorry, my mistake.... :o

Now there's something you don't see a webmaster type too often. Guess this is why Rich chose his rather unique screename? That's also an excellent way to earn even more respect from those that already have quite a lot for The Man, aka Big Meanie. And yes, I know it sounds like I'm blowing smoke, but I don't care; I try to call it as I see it. "Enjoy the ride!":D:rolleyes:
Anyway Jeff S., I think if you would play your cards right on this site, you will not have any of the problems you have had on the site you were banned from last week. But so far, I'm sad to say I have not seen a good pokerface from you yet. Six of the most important letters in the alphabet: L, I, S, T, E, N.

[JETZEN]

Jeff B. don't have a clue, a L.g.florida-X-L.g.goini/blotched/measly/whatever is not a true hybrid....and should not be placed in the hybrid classified area.

Jeff S.,
be glad you're rid of ks.com and post your ads at this site.




John Sommerfield
ex-snake keeper down to 4 eggs in the incubator (goini-X-californiae)

[akonitony]

Jeff B. don't have a clue, a L.g.florida-X-L.g.goini/blotched/measly/whatever is not a true hybrid....and should not be placed in the hybrid classified area.Jeff S.,
be glad you're rid of ks.com and post your ads at this site.




John Sommerfield
ex-snake keeper down to 4 eggs in the incubator (goini-X-californiae)

Interesting opinion, but unbiased?

[East_Coast]

Interesting opinion, but unbiased?

What I don't get is how does an ex-snake keeper have 4 Kingsnake eggs in the incubator... and in January...?

:shrug01:

I am very confused

[akonitony]

What I don't get is how does an ex-snake keeper have 4 Kingsnake eggs in the incubator... and in January...?

:shrug01:

I am very confused

I'm confoosed too... maybe it's some sort of hybrid phenomenon of which we are not enlightened. Maybe we don't have the right degrees or experience?

[JETZEN]

I'm confoosed too... maybe it's some sort of hybrid phenomenon of which we are not enlightened. Maybe we don't have the right degrees or experience?

you will be less confoosed when you learn the difference between these 3 combinations...


1. hybrid

2. crossbreed

3. mixed breed

very few in the reptilehobby/business know the difference.


i'd like to know exactly why Jeff S. feels dependent on ks.com??????




John Sommerfield,
4 more eggs to go,YAY!!! no more rodents!!!

[KelliH]

What I don't get is how does an ex-snake keeper have 4 Kingsnake eggs in the incubator... and in January...?

:shrug01:

I am very confused

Kingsnake eggs are..."eggs", they aren't snakes until they hatch. Maybe his females double clutched for him and he got a clutch late last year. Just thinking out loud here.

[scaledverts]

Jeff B. don't have a clue, a L.g.florida-X-L.g.goini/blotched/measly/whatever is not a true hybrid....and should not be placed in the hybrid classified area.


That is certainly one opinion on the matter. But it is not an opinion that is commonly held by most of the reptile community as evidenced by this thread (an others on this site and KS).

you will be less confoosed when you learn the difference between these 3 combinations...


1. hybrid

2. crossbreed

3. mixed breed

very few in the reptilehobby/business know the difference.


That's because some of them have almost ZERO relevance to reptiles and really biology in general (other than dogs which are unnatural man made creations anyway). Unless you are considering "breeds" different species.

Which then means that:

hybrid = a hybrid
crossbreed = a hybrid
mixed breed = a hybrid
:shrug01:

Alternatively, you could consider "breeds" to be different morphs of the same species/subspecies (this is how it is applied to dogs). In this case it still doesn't really apply to reptiles as it does to dogs (which are all the same species, domestic dogs anyway). Reptiles don't really have the morphological diversity within a species that dogs do because they have not been selectively bred for thousands of years. Even traits such as albinism etc would not fall under "breeds" IMO because there is a specific gene (or small number of genes) responsible for the color differences. Hence an animal can be heterozygous for a given trait. Morphological differences (such as those seen in dogs) are USUALLY a combination of many genes that all act in concert to produce the morphology. If you breed a poodle to a great dane, you don't get a wild type dog that is heterozygous for poodle and great dane. Instead you get a combination of the two "breeds."

[Amelanistic Orca]

Finally some common sense on the matter!! Yee haw!!

[DavidBeard]

I was about to say....nobody uses the term " breed" for different species of reptiles.

[East_Coast]

i'd like to know exactly why Jeff S. feels dependent on ks.com?????

He needs KS because it is the largest single site people go to when they want to buy reptiles. Now he can't reach people using that site.

[akonitony]

you will be less confoosed when you learn the difference between these 3 combinations...


1. hybrid

2. crossbreed

3. mixed breed

very few in the reptilehobby/business know the difference.

That's easy, everyone knows hybrids were started out by Toyota and Honda, and now Chevy and Ford are getting into the deal as well, and unless you're talkin' of ways to increase hybrid vigor, the other two terms don't come into play with reptiles. "Mixed breed" is technically a misnomer, BTW.

[Jeff Schofield]

That is certainly one opinion on the matter. But it is not an opinion that is commonly held by most of the reptile community as evidenced by this thread (an others on this site and KS).



That's because some of them have almost ZERO relevance to reptiles and really biology in general (other than dogs which are unnatural man made creations anyway). Unless you are considering "breeds" different species.

Which then means that:

hybrid = a hybrid
crossbreed = a hybrid
mixed breed = a hybrid
:shrug01:

Alternatively, you could consider "breeds" to be different morphs of the same species/subspecies (this is how it is applied to dogs). In this case it still doesn't really apply to reptiles as it does to dogs (which are all the same species, domestic dogs anyway). Reptiles don't really have the morphological diversity within a species that dogs do because they have not been selectively bred for thousands of years. Even traits such as albinism etc would not fall under "breeds" IMO because there is a specific gene (or small number of genes) responsible for the color differences. Hence an animal can be heterozygous for a given trait. Morphological differences (such as those seen in dogs) are USUALLY a combination of many genes that all act in concert to produce the morphology. If you breed a poodle to a great dane, you don't get a wild type dog that is heterozygous for poodle and great dane. Instead you get a combination of the two "breeds."

WOW-maybe I am finding it surprising that more people dont understand that they are NOT dealing with wild animals but domesticated ones. Breeds. You say that its not relavent because not enough generations have passed between the original and now......but I say there has. I know the difference. Again, we are not talking about hybrids, not even morphs(though they are the ultimate reason for crossing)but simply ssp x ssp. Brooks/Goini is a common enough cross to be accepted, at least 5 top breeders are working on these lines. Working morph traits around among ssp. is all we are doing.
Comparing them to dogs we can find many laughable truths. How are "pure" breeds formed?? Many times a mutt x mutt end up as a "pure" breed, right?? If I am trying to sell a snake I want to make it appealing, eye catching, marketable. Sure they arent for everyone, nothing is. But I cut my teeth breeding locality Coastal Plains milks only to find that I couldnt sell em! Difficult babies, wrong market, whatever. The bottom line as a breeder is to be able to find good homes for my babies. I have "pure" chain kings I cant get $20ea for, why should I continue to breed them? All the "purists" out there simply arent BUYING. Loudmouths yes, buyers NO-LMAO. My idea of a "LOCALE" section instead of HYBRID section would certainly have made that apparant.
I like keeping kingsnakes, babies are easier to feed than tiny milks. It doesnt make sense to me to reinvent the wheel and sit on 20+ babies all winter like I have just to "keep em pure". Truth is the intergrade morphs are more variable and sell better, its extremely hard for anyone to argue the other side. I will still produce many "pure" forms but the market is telling me that mixed lines have merit! If I dont want to sit on every baby I produce I need to listen to the market and even be in front of it and anticipate demands. Looking at multimorph "pure" lines vs single morph "mixed" lines.....the mixed lines are both more attractive and more variable. This makes them more desirable in the market place. If I am wrong I have 20 "pure" chain king babies @$20ea that want to meet you.....

[scaledverts]

WOW-maybe I am finding it surprising that more people dont understand that they are NOT dealing with wild animals but domesticated ones.

See this is the fundamental disconnect between those that produce hybrids and those that want to keep their breeding lines pure. At what point do you consider a species "domesticated?" Just because they bred in captivity does not make them domesticated. I think the word domesticated itself is not the appropriate word to be used here as it has many behavioral connotations. Hence why people use the term captive bred.

Breeds. You say that its not relavent because not enough generations have passed between the original and now......but I say there has. I know the difference.

Reading comprehension FAIL. I said breeds don't apply because they are different species! In order for a snake species to have "breeds" there would have to be many different (non simple recessive) "morphs" within it. That just is not the case.

You saying that there has been enough selective breeding of reptiles in captivity to produce specific breeds within a species is based on.........what? What ACTUAL evidence do you have for this statement? "I know the difference" just doesn't cut it.

Again, we are not talking about hybrids, not even morphs(though they are the ultimate reason for crossing)but simply ssp x ssp. Brooks/Goini is a common enough cross to be accepted, at least 5 top breeders are working on these lines. Working morph traits around among ssp. is all we are doing.

Again, that is ONE OPINION. News flash for you here: "working morph traits around among species" is creating hybrids. :eek::shootfoot


Comparing them to dogs we can find many laughable truths. How are "pure" breeds formed??

The only reason dogs even came into this is because another poster brought up mixed breeds and cross breeds.:NoNo: So yeah, I agree using those terms to justify creating hybrids is in fact laughable.

[Jeff Schofield]

See this is the fundamental disconnect between those that produce hybrids and those that want to keep their breeding lines pure. At what point do you consider a species "domesticated?" Just because they bred in captivity does not make them domesticated. I think the word domesticated itself is not the appropriate word to be used here as it has many behavioral connotations. Hence why people use the term captive bred.

How many genes do you have to manipulate within a animal before it is a BREED not a INTERGRADE? This line I am dealing with is at least 5-7 generations captive bred, comparing them to wc animals isnt right. But they still arent HYBRIDS. There is plenty of room in between, and as I have pointed out I am not the only one working with them.



Reading comprehension FAIL. I said breeds don't apply because they are different species! In order for a snake species to have "breeds" there would have to be many different (non simple recessive) "morphs" within it. That just is not the case.


UMM-NO. These are different SUB Species, they are the same SPECIES. There are more than 1 of these "breeds", depending on which line you breed for different recessive genes(EX-HYPO, Albino, Lav Albino). Now it might take another generation or 2 to have multiple morphs expressed....but making double hets is necessary to get double hets.


You saying that there has been enough selective breeding of reptiles in captivity to produce specific breeds within a species is based on.........what? What ACTUAL evidence do you have for this statement? "I know the difference" just doesn't cut it.

OK, how many generations of cross breeding defines a BREED? Its subjective. I would say 5 generations is enough...and why should we listen to you?

Again, that is ONE OPINION. News flash for you here: "working morph traits around among species" is creating hybrids. :eek::shootfoot

And yours is one opinion as well, why would I(or we that work with these breeds)listen to someone like you? If you dont like what we are doing just pass on the ad. We are far off topic.

The only reason dogs even came into this is because another poster brought up mixed breeds and cross breeds.:NoNo: So yeah, I agree using those terms to justify creating hybrids is in fact laughable.

Again, you dont understand the word HYBRID. It is defined as breeding Species A x Species B......all the animals I work with are in the same SPECIES, and their subspecific ranges overlap. They are called INTERGRADES.

[scaledverts]

Again, you dont understand the word HYBRID. It is defined as breeding Species A x Species B......all the animals I work with are in the same SPECIES, and their subspecific ranges overlap. They are called INTERGRADES.

No, I understand the word hybrid. I just don't agree with YOUR interpretation where subspecies designations mean it is ok to breed them together to make subspecific HYBRIDS or what you call intergrades. It's been shown already the problems inherent to this logic see post #76 (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1192283&postcount=76) by RidgeTop Reptiles.

It's a moot point in terms of this thread. I agree with Jeff B.'s decision to move your adds and after seeing the way your responded to him and in this thread I agree with him canceling your account.

I am quite sure that if you would like to debate hybrid vs intergrade there would be many that would respond (from both sides) if you started a thread in the forums (or found an already started thread there to revisit).

[cobraman1]

No, I understand the word hybrid. I just don't agree with YOUR interpretation where subspecies designations mean it is ok to breed them together to make subspecific HYBRIDS or what you call intergrades. It's been shown already the problems inherent to this logic see post #76 (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1192283&postcount=76) by RidgeTop Reptiles.

It's a moot point in terms of this thread. I agree with Jeff B.'s decision to move your adds and after seeing the way your responded to him and in this thread I agree with him canceling your account.

I am quite sure that if you would like to debate hybrid vs intergrade there would be many that would respond (from both sides) if you started a thread in the forums (or found an already started thread there to revisit).

I think biggest problem with Jeff B moving his ads is the fact that he has only made a section for hybrid kings. Im not sure what sense that makes at all if he isnt going to do the same with ALL reptile/amphibian sections on KS. With that being said, it is hypocritical of Jeff B for doing this. Now, I know its his business and he has a right to do with it as he pleases, but He needs to consider that the only reason he has his business is because of the people that pay him to display ads. He should treat them all the same. its not about what is hybrid or intergrade, its about respecting all of your customers as equal partners. Once again, Im not saying Jeff S wasnt a little pushy, but he has a point.

[Jeff Schofield]

No, I understand the word hybrid. I just don't agree with YOUR interpretation where subspecies designations mean it is ok to breed them together to make subspecific HYBRIDS or what you call intergrades. It's been shown already the problems inherent to this logic see post #76 (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1192283&postcount=76) by RidgeTop Reptiles.

It's a moot point in terms of this thread. I agree with Jeff B.'s decision to move your adds and after seeing the way your responded to him and in this thread I agree with him canceling your account.

I am quite sure that if you would like to debate hybrid vs intergrade there would be many that would respond (from both sides) if you started a thread in the forums (or found an already started thread there to revisit).

Well if anyone wants to read post #76 you will realize he doesnt understand the difference between species and subspecies never mind intergrades or hybrids. It is not a moot point that the title of the thread is the hypocrisy of ks.com. I wont debate hybrids/intergrades with you because dont understand what is wrong with thread #76.

[Jeff Schofield]

I think biggest problem with Jeff B moving his ads is the fact that he has only made a section for hybrid kings. Im not sure what sense that makes at all if he isnt going to do the same with ALL reptile/amphibian sections on KS. With that being said, it is hypocritical of Jeff B for doing this. Now, I know its his business and he has a right to do with it as he pleases, but He needs to consider that the only reason he has his business is because of the people that pay him to display ads. He should treat them all the same. its not about what is hybrid or intergrade, its about respecting all of your customers as equal partners. Once again, Im not saying Jeff S wasnt a little pushy, but he has a point.

Thank you, back on topic!

[The BoidSmith]

The more anyone reads this thread the more is evident that Jeff B.'s decision was not based on hybridization semantics, and that it is more than likely irreversible. :rolleyes_

[Lucille]

The more anyone reads this thread the more is evident that Jeff B.'s decision was not based on hybridization semantics, and that it is more than likely irreversible. :rolleyes_

I agree. And the thread makes a reverse less likely wherever the OP may again take issue in a like manner.

[CalebHarris]

I dont know what you meant by suggestions, but I guess it depends on what you would want from the situation now. Legally, if he has hurt your business, and you can prove it, you pretty much have a case in court. Especially if there are other people whose adds for hybrids have not been treated the same way. Whether he put your adds in the right place or not, is irrelevant from a legal perspective. The only way you would have any recourse, is on the grounds that his actions knowingly caused damage to your business. But I dont know that it would be worth your time to pursue anything like that. It would be a long process, and who knows, he may have access to much better legal representation than you. I would just wait some time, and send an apologetic email and try to work it out that way. Or, you could just not do business through kingsnake anymore.

[scaledverts]

Well if anyone wants to read post #76 you will realize he doesnt understand the difference between species and subspecies never mind intergrades or hybrids. It is not a moot point that the title of the thread is the hypocrisy of ks.com. I wont debate hybrids/intergrades with you because dont understand what is wrong with thread #76.

:rofl: AHAHAHA I don't understand what is WRONG with this post. Wow just wow. I guess the only correct answer for you IS "You are right and none else has a clue what they are talking about. Oh great and all knowing one, :bow01:." Yeah, that's not going to happen, so good luck selling your hybrid snakes on a website other than KS because there is NO WAY you are actually going to get back on there with your attitude. I am sure he has seen this thread by now.

[EdwardK]

Again, you dont understand the word HYBRID. It is defined as breeding Species A x Species B......all the animals I work with are in the same SPECIES, and their subspecific ranges overlap. They are called INTERGRADES.

Actually this definition is not accepted in the literature... intergrades are considered to be animals found in "hybridization zones" and these zones can be the result of species crossed with species, subspecies crossed with subspecies or races crossed with races.. For a hybridization zone to occur it has contain hybrids..

For a short list of examples see the following (note the two herp references....)

"Analysis of Hybridization between two subspecies of the Desert Whiptail Lizard, Cnemidophorus tigris" see http://www.jstor.org/pss/1440676

"A hybrid zone between two subspecies of the grasshopper Chorthippus parallelus along the Pyrenees: the west end" found at http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v73/n6/abs/hdy1994170a.html

"Narrow hybrid zone between two subspecies of big sagebrush (ARTEMISIA TRIDENTATA: Asteraceae). IX. Elemental uptake and niche separation" found at http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/86/8/1099

"Analysis of a hybrid zone between subspecies of the tiger
salamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) in central New Mexico, USA" found at http://www.collinslab.asu.edu/publications/21Jones_hybrid.pdf

Some comments,

Ed

[The BoidSmith]

Legally, if he has hurt your business, and you can prove it, you pretty much have a case in court. Especially if there are other people whose adds for hybrids have not been treated the same way. Whether he put your adds in the right place or not, is irrelevant from a legal perspective. The only way you would have any recourse, is on the grounds that his actions knowingly caused damage to your business. But I dont know that it would be worth your time to pursue anything like that. It would be a long process, and who knows, he may have access to much better legal representation than you.

Without having any expertise in law it seems to me his chances are from 0 to -50. We assume Jeff B. has the obligation to offer service to everyone. It is his site and he has the right to give an account to whoever he wants and kick-out whoever he pleases, particularly if it's an individual that disrupts his site. Which brings me to the next point, if there was a lawyer desperate enough for money to take the case, rest assured there would be a countersuit...and Jeff B. stands a great chance to win it. Had Jeff B. kept the money there would have been a slim chance but let's give credit to his intelligence, he returned it...

[KelliH]

Without having any expertise in law it seems to me his chances are from 0 to -50. We assume Jeff B. has the obligation to offer service to everyone. It is his site and he has the right to give an account to whoever he wants and kick-out whoever he pleases, particularly if it's an individual that disrupts his site. Which brings me to the next point, if there was a lawyer desperate enough for money to take the case, rest assured there would be a countersuit...and Jeff B. stands a great chance to win it. Had Jeff B. kept the money there would have been a slim chance but let's give credit to his intelligence, he returned it...

Exactly. It's a privately owned website, and he can ban anyone he wants to, for any reason he wants to.

[Jeff Schofield]

Without having any expertise in law it seems to me his chances are from 0 to -50. We assume Jeff B. has the obligation to offer service to everyone. It is his site and he has the right to give an account to whoever he wants and kick-out whoever he pleases, particularly if it's an individual that disrupts his site. Which brings me to the next point, if there was a lawyer desperate enough for money to take the case, rest assured there would be a countersuit...and Jeff B. stands a great chance to win it. Had Jeff B. kept the money there would have been a slim chance but let's give credit to his intelligence, he returned it...

Lets NOT give him credit because he has NOT returned it.....

[KelliH]

From the kingsnake.com Classified Account Terms

[Southern Wolf]

Well if anyone wants to read post #76 you will realize he doesnt understand the difference between species and subspecies never mind intergrades or hybrids. It is not a moot point that the title of the thread is the hypocrisy of ks.com. I wont debate hybrids/intergrades with you because dont understand what is wrong with thread #76.

Then educate me smart :censored:

Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Lampropeltis = Genus
getula = Species
floridana = sub species.

What do I not understand. You're just pissed because we are not subscribing to YOUR theories on intergrade vs hybrid. By your theories... a cross between a cal king and a FL king should be an intergrade... but there is no way they are gonna intergrade in the wild.

[The BoidSmith]

Thanks for posting that information Kelli, no need for Jeff B. to even return the money.

[Wraith]

Thanks for posting that information Kelli, no need for Jeff B. to even return the money.

Jeff B is not obligated to return the money per the terms of Service that Jeff S agreed to follow when he purchased his account. Jeff B. is being generous in saying he would refund a pro-rated amount. I expect it takes time to have an accountant cut a check and mail it through the post office so for Jeff S. to expect money quickly is wishful thinking on his part.

[EdwardK]

Then educate me smart :censored:

Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Lampropeltis = Genus
getula = Species
floridana = sub species.

What do I not understand. You're just pissed because we are not subscribing to YOUR theories on intergrade vs hybrid. By your theories... a cross between a cal king and a FL king should be an intergrade... but there is no way they are gonna intergrade in the wild.

Even if they did "intergrade"... the literature would consider that to occur in a zone of hybridization.... If you have a zone of hybridization, you have hybrids...
see the examples I posted here in post 168
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=168

Ed

[Steve_Zissou]

trying to clear your name and instead having 18 pages where you tell members they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help your cause very much my friend. Just because somebodys personal interpretation of a word is different than yours doesnt mean you get to tell everybody they are wrong and ignore the evidence presented to you that is contradictory to your interpretation of the word. seems 9 of 10 people agree on a different definition than yours, so instead of telling 90% of people their wrong and your right, you should educate yourself on the standpoints of others. Like nick hexum said "ignorance is bliss to those uneducated" , refusing to educate yourself on the standpoints of others to make an unbiased opinon doesnt help you much. I support adult arguments, where people have a chance to exchange different opinions to reach a conclusion i have learned quite a bit by listening to view points that are very different than my own standpoint. However if you ignore what others have to say and just think your always right theres no constructive argument its just you on a soap box telling people how it is regardless if your wrong or not (and looking mighty foolish in the process)

[akonitony]

trying to clear your name and instead having 18 pages where you tell members they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help your cause very much my friend. Just because somebodys personal interpretation of a word is different than yours doesnt mean you get to tell everybody they are wrong and ignore the evidence presented to you that is contradictory to your interpretation of the word. seems 9 of 10 people agree on a different definition than yours, so instead of telling 90% of people their wrong and your right, you should educate yourself on the standpoints of others. Like nick hexum said "ignorance is bliss to those uneducated" , refusing to educate yourself on the standpoints of others to make an unbiased opinon doesnt help you much. I support adult arguments, where people have a chance to exchange different opinions to reach a conclusion i have learned quite a bit by listening to view points that are very different than my own standpoint. However if you ignore what others have to say and just think your always right theres no constructive argument its just you on a soap box telling people how it is regardless if your wrong or not (and looking mighty foolish in the process)

See: Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
Exaggerating your achievements or talents
Expecting constant praise and admiration
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
Taking advantage of others
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
Being jealous of others
Believing that others are jealous of you
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Setting unrealistic goals
Being easily hurt and rejected
Having a fragile self-esteem
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

[Jeff Schofield]

trying to clear your name and instead having 18 pages where you tell members they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help your cause very much my friend. Just because somebodys personal interpretation of a word is different than yours doesnt mean you get to tell everybody they are wrong and ignore the evidence presented to you that is contradictory to your interpretation of the word. seems 9 of 10 people agree on a different definition than yours, so instead of telling 90% of people their wrong and your right, you should educate yourself on the standpoints of others. Like nick hexum said "ignorance is bliss to those uneducated" , refusing to educate yourself on the standpoints of others to make an unbiased opinon doesnt help you much. I support adult arguments, where people have a chance to exchange different opinions to reach a conclusion i have learned quite a bit by listening to view points that are very different than my own standpoint. However if you ignore what others have to say and just think your always right theres no constructive argument its just you on a soap box telling people how it is regardless if your wrong or not (and looking mighty foolish in the process)

Well I dont believe in the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy or anyone from a big book. If people went along with popular opinion you might think the world was still flat. I have educated myself and several people here in this thread, sorry I couldnt help everyone. I am not ignoring others, but I am disturbed that people would chime in not knowing the accepted differences. I know somewhere there is a museum of Creationism too, just because alot of people go there doesnt mean they are right either. Making a point, didnt intend to debate religion.

[Southern Wolf]

Well I dont believe in the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy or anyone from a big book. If people went along with popular opinion you might think the world was still flat. I have educated myself and several people here in this thread, sorry I couldnt help everyone. I am not ignoring others, but I am disturbed that people would chime in not knowing MY accepted differences.

Fixed your wording to what you actually meant. You have proven in this thread that if folks don't subscribe to YOUR way of thinking they must be wrong. I believe you said something along the lines of your smarter than most of the folks here.

It's been brought to my attention that I hold a stricter since of the words "hybrid" and "intergrade" than some. Maybe I do this because Im not into making hybrids... and the folks that have a more looser definition of the two aren't against making hybrids. :shrug01:

As to your educating folks in this thread. You're right about that. You have educated us to your 'greather than thou' attitude, and we do appreciate the skoolin'

[scaledverts]

Well I dont believe in the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy or anyone from a big book. If people went along with popular opinion you might think the world was still flat.

Did you just compare yourself to Pythagoras and Aristotle? Talk about being a pompous :censored:.

I have educated myself and several people here in this thread, sorry I couldnt help everyone.

Where praytel did this supposed education regarding hybrids come from? Your own misinterpretations of the term?

I am not ignoring others, but I am disturbed that people would chime in not knowing the accepted differences.

Are you the pot or the kettle in this fun game? I think you are the one that does not know the "accepted differences."

You are conveniently ignoring the scientifically based evidence that other posters have presented (look up the references, maybe you can "educate yourself").

Some people just can't/wont accept that they are wrong. These people cannot be reasoned with or have a debate without telling you that you are stupid. It's like arguing with a two year old.

C'est la vie.

[akonitony]

Well I dont believe in the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy or anyone from a big book. If people went along with popular opinion you might think the world was still flat. I have educated myself and several people here in this thread, sorry I couldnt help everyone. I am not ignoring others, but I am disturbed that people would chime in not knowing the accepted differences. I know somewhere there is a museum of Creationism too, just because alot of people go there doesnt mean they are right either. Making a point, didnt intend to debate religion.

Criteria for narcissistic personality disorder to be diagnosed include:

Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power or beauty
Believing that you are special and can associate only with equally special people
Requiring constant admiration
Having a sense of entitlement
Taking advantage of others
Having an inability to recognize needs and feelings of others
Being envious of others
Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner

[MalinoisK9]

Jeff S. is like listening to some crack head on Intervention trying to rationalize why they can't go to rehab. Everyone else gets it... but him.

[Jeff Schofield]

From the kingsnake.com Classified Account Terms

Kelli, nice of you to post the TOS. Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right? Again, it was not the defintion that caused me to start this thread but the hypocrisy that is still not resolved and the customer service that should have given to a long term paying customer in good standing.

[akonitony]

Jeff S. is like listening to some crack head on Intervention trying to rationalize why they can't go to rehab. Everyone else gets it... but him.

When to see a doctor
When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may not want to think that anything could be wrong — doing so wouldn't fit with your self-image of power and perfection. But by definition, narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of your life, such as relationships, work, school or your financial affairs. You may be generally unhappy and confused by a mix of seemingly contradictory emotions. Others may not enjoy being around you, and you may find your relationships unfulfilling. If you notice any of these problems in your life, consider reaching out to a trusted health care provider or mental health provider. Getting the right treatment can help make your life more rewarding and enjoyable.

[Maligator]

When to see a doctor
When you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may not want to think that anything could be wrong — doing so wouldn't fit with your self-image of power and perfection. But by definition, narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of your life, such as relationships, work, school or your financial affairs. You may be generally unhappy and confused by a mix of seemingly contradictory emotions. Others may not enjoy being around you, and you may find your relationships unfulfilling. If you notice any of these problems in your life, consider reaching out to a trusted health care provider or mental health provider. Getting the right treatment can help make your life more rewarding and enjoyable.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[akonitony]

Kelli, nice of you to post the TOS. Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right? Again, it was not the defintion that caused me to start this thread but the hypocrisy that is still not resolved and the customer service that should have given to a long term paying customer in good standing.

Uh... well Jeff, wrong. I believe the words "...reserve the right to terminate any account, refuse service, or limit access at our discretion." at the bottom of the third paragraph under LEGAL basically says this in a politically correct way.

Why don't you just take Jeff B. to court in Texas?

[WebSlave]

OK, I'm ready to start handing out infractions (and maybe a temporary ban or two) for personal attacks to all those who are attempting to belittle another member in this thread. You are all welcome to disagree, but when you start resorting to barbs in the back and using definitions of terms in a derogatory manner in an attempt to generate ridicule and antagonism, that just needs to STOP. Like RIGHT NOW. :NoNo:

[Southern Wolf]

Kelli, nice of you to post the TOS. Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right? Again, it was not the defintion that caused me to start this thread but the hypocrisy that is still not resolved and the customer service that should have given to a long term paying customer in good standing.


Actually you did with your emails to Jeff.

[LauraB]

Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right?

Truth is, it actually does say just that.

[Southern Wolf]

Kelli, nice of you to post the TOS. Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right? Again, it was not the defintion that caused me to start this thread but the hypocrisy that is still not resolved and the customer service that should have given to a long term paying customer in good standing.

Ummmmm yeah it does :yesnod:

[KelliH]

Kelli, nice of you to post the TOS. Truth is, I didnt violate it. Jeff B changed the terms of my service by moving my ads, I'm sure it doesnt say anywhere in the TOS "This is my site and I can do anything I want" right? Again, it was not the defintion that caused me to start this thread but the hypocrisy that is still not resolved and the customer service that should have given to a long term paying customer in good standing.

I think they can ban anyone, at anytime, for anything they want to.

[KelliH]

LOL sorry I didn't see the post by Laura prior to posting.

[Jeff Schofield]

I think they can ban anyone, at anytime, for anything they want to.

Kelli, all well and good, I was wrong about that. It still doesnt explain the TOPIC of the thread, the hypocrisy still exists.

[Wraith]

Kelli, all well and good, I was wrong about that. It still doesnt explain the TOPIC of the thread, the hypocrisy still exists.

You mouthed off to jeff b over how he chose to reorganize his classified categories. He tried to be reasonable and compromise. You continued to mouth off and he banned you. End of story. Get over it.

[EdwardK]

It also looks like it is a moot point as the classified section is now titled quote" Hybrid & Intergrade Colubrids Classifieds "endquote: (http://market.kingsnake.com/index.php?cat=90 ) and does include hybrids as well as odd balls like bubblegum rat snakes...etc.

With respect to boas, there is a forum for locality and subspecific boas......

It looks like this a process in action.....

Ed
Ed Kowalski

[Southern Wolf]

You mouthed off to jeff b over how he chose to reorganize his classified categories. He tried to be reasonable and compromise. You continued to mouth off and he banned you. End of story. Get over it.

That pretty much sums it up. You have been shown evidence contrary to what you believe and you still go after those of us here.... I can only imagine what the thread was like over on KS.

[Jeff Schofield]

refund posted:thumbsup:

[East_Coast]

refund posted:thumbsup:

No offense Jeff... but I would not be jumping up and down.

"Refund Posted" from them means "Leave and don't ever come back."

[Jeff Schofield]

No offense Jeff... but I would not be jumping up and down.

"Refund Posted" from them means "Leave and don't ever come back."

I gather you know from first hand experience...

[The BoidSmith]

Written by Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People is one of the first bestselling self-help books ever published, rumor has it he is working on Part 2: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People...

[poppy]

Why don't you just drop it Jeff? Im not telling you to, I am just confused, I couldnt imagine taking the reins and running, page after page after page if this was my thread. You could have saved the trouble and just submitted a badguy post on yourself. You are coming off very arguementative, it seems you are the one who never wants to get back into Kingsnake, and alienating any future customers who happen to decide to use the BOI as the tool it can be, prior to making an online purchase.

It's definitely not going to get anyone to add to your Karma.

[East_Coast]

I gather you know from first hand experience...

Jeff, The difference is I don't have a bunch of snakes to sell that nobody wants. I think you will find that, by the very nature of this site, people are more educated about snakes here.

People are going to click your ads... then they will click YOU in here and will see how you conduct yourself.

Good luck. Personally I always knew that the stuff you peddle is garbage. I mean that just the way it sounds: GARBAGE.

I may have gotten in arguments, etc on here and KS - but the difference is I never really did it (breed and sell snakes) as more than a pastime: you are actually looking at this like you have a business (you don't).

Good luck, keep posting, and get ready to sit on your fake intergrades, your fake "monster milks, and your other fake trash snakes that are not worth the money it costs to ship them.

One last thing: please don't send me any more PM's in here like we are friends. I don't know you, I don't care to know you, and I don't want to have any private communication with you.

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff, The difference is I don't have a bunch of snakes to sell that nobody wants. I think you will find that, by the very nature of this site, people are more educated about snakes here.

People are going to click your ads... then they will click YOU in here and will see how you conduct yourself.

Good luck. Personally I always knew that the stuff you peddle is garbage. I mean that just the way it sounds: GARBAGE.

I may have gotten in arguments, etc on here and KS - but the difference is I never really did it (breed and sell snakes) as more than a pastime: you are actually looking at this like you have a business (you don't).

Good luck, keep posting, and get ready to sit on your fake intergrades, your fake "monster milks, and your other fake trash snakes that are not worth the money it costs to ship them.

One last thing: please don't send me any more PM's in here like we are friends. I don't know you, I don't care to know you, and I don't want to have any private communication with you.

S0, I will take that as a YES? Glad you are the Garbage Police, man you take the cake. Can you tell me you treat the people who MADE the intergrades I BOUGHT the same way? Mark Bell? Rainer, Zenny,Tom Stevens?? As far as having a business, selling hundreds of babies a year does constitute a business to many. A pic says 1000 words and I have never misrepresented anything I have ever had. If I sent you a PM it was because to me your responses sound personal, believe me that was NOT my intention. Go get into another arguement with a tree or fire hydrant and leave this thread alone if you cant stay on topic. The topic, if you are interested, was the hypocrisy on kingsnake.com.

[Southern Wolf]

Actually.... since you are the OP .... you too can become the topic. Because anything you type can come under fire as suspicios.... then you have to stand up the scrutiney (sp?) Quite frankly... your character also adds or subtracts to the outcome of the thread.

I think its safe to say most folks are going to side with Jeff and KS because of how you have treated folks here. The 'greater than thou' attitude you have shown.... and the unwillingess to adimt that maybe... just maybe.... your definition of intergrade vs hybrid may be off a bit.

So back on topic..... the topic is YOU and KS. You started the thread... and its about KS.

Have a good day.

[David Scarboro]

S0, I have never misrepresented anything I have ever had.

There is a thread on this very BOI where not only did you misrepresent an animal, you lied about it. Care to revisit that, I don't mind.

[David Scarboro]

Here are some more of your words of wisdom from one of YOUR bad guy threads.

"That BOI is a joke now anyways(the traffic is down 70%!),having people PAY to complain about others is a farce.'

There are plenty more. PLEASE lets continue...

[jmp745]

I cant believe I read that whole thing. As an unbiased observer, who has never bred a snake in my life, I easily grasp the argument on the hybrid thing as explained here. Mythical snakes from location A eat rodents mostly, while snakes in location C eat mostly birds. Natural breeding in the wild might end up with AXC in the middle(location B) who like to eat frogs. Mix A and C in a tank and the babies might hate frogs.

I as far as the original topic goes, it doesn't seem fair that some ads got moved while others didn't. But I'm guessing its like someone else said. He was probably sick of the OP and used it as a reason. I'm bored with the guy after one thread. Might be the reason his ads got fast tracked to the new system in the first place for all I know. Doesn't really matter. If you own a site, you dont have to be right. You own it, and the right to do what you want with it, while deciding who else gets to do what on it, for any reason at any time. Its not like getting ripped off or done wrong to, its more like someone asking you to leave there home, even if its only because they're sick of your company.

The big question is, what now? Whats another 20 pages going to change? Nobody here is getting there minds changed about anything. Its kinda turned into one of those "beat the dead horse" things about 15 pages ago.

[Jeff Schofield]

I cant believe I read that whole thing. As an unbiased observer, who has never bred a snake in my life, I easily grasp the argument on the hybrid thing as explained here. Mythical snakes from location A eat rodents mostly, while snakes in location C eat mostly birds. Natural breeding in the wild might end up with AXC in the middle(location B) who like to eat frogs. Mix A and C in a tank and the babies might hate frogs.

I as far as the original topic goes, it doesn't seem fair that some ads got moved while others didn't. But I'm guessing its like someone else said. He was probably sick of the OP and used it as a reason. I'm bored with the guy after one thread. Might be the reason his ads got fast tracked to the new system in the first place for all I know. Doesn't really matter. If you own a site, you dont have to be right. You own it, and the right to do what you want with it, while deciding who else gets to do what on it, for any reason at any time. Its not like getting ripped off or done wrong to, its more like someone asking you to leave there home, even if its only because they're sick of your company.

The big question is, what now? Whats another 20 pages going to change? Nobody here is getting there minds changed about anything. Its kinda turned into one of those "beat the dead horse" things about 15 pages ago.

Hi, thanks for your opinion, thats what I was asking in the beginning. And I do see that if you own a site you dont have to be right, and I felt wrong because I was a paying customer. Using your analogy wouldnt you want to know why you were asked to leave? Dont you think you should be afforded the same terms as anyone else? This thread is so long because I am taking the time to respond to so many people individually even if we dont see eye to eye. There have been a great many personal shots, plenty of attempts to get this thread to be about me. Anyone that wants to know me will know I am consistent, I take the time to answer every question, and I dont back down to online bullies even if I'm a new guy here. I find it very problematic that many chose to follow the thread to bash my snakes, which arent and never have been in question. I hope everyone like you who has read this far could eliminate the rhetorical discussion and look at the topic at hand. Thanks.

[Lucille]

There is a thread on this very BOI where not only did you misrepresent an animal, you lied about it. Care to revisit that, I don't mind.
The OP seems to be avoiding your posts. They are not something to gloss over. If he did indeed lie, he could be lying about what happened on KS. Who knows what kinds of emails were sent to Jeff B., it is obvious by reading some of the OP posts here, that whatever was sent was enough for Jeff B. to do what he did.

[Jeff Schofield]

The OP seems to be avoiding your posts. They are not something to gloss over. If he did indeed lie, he could be lying about what happened on KS. Who knows what kinds of emails were sent to Jeff B., it is obvious by reading some of the OP posts here, that whatever was sent was enough for Jeff B. to do what he did.

The thread Mr Scarboro is referring to is there for anyone to see. The facts remain that I sent him pics of the snakes he was trading, gave him all pertinent collecting info(Red Milks collected by Kirk Setser(locale included) sold to Shannon Brown bought by me)and explained more than once that a Red Milk(L.T.Syspila)from that area of Iowa isnt very RED. He got the snake in the pic I sent him and claimed it to be a Eastern milk(though it was keyed out as a Red Milk) and he doesnt know how to key out milks. Shannon and Kirk have attested to it. My customers mean alot to me so I paid the $50 for shipping and sent him a FREE replacement Red Milk and the second time he claimed the box arrived empty. Moral of the story, you cant make everyone happy no matter how hard you try. Please dont respond to this in this thread as it only encourages trolls. I hope this clears this up. I dont respond well to being called a liar. Thanks.

[East_Coast]

The OP seems to be avoiding your posts. They are not something to gloss over. If he did indeed lie, he could be lying about what happened on KS. Who knows what kinds of emails were sent to Jeff B., it is obvious by reading some of the OP posts here, that whatever was sent was enough for Jeff B. to do what he did.

Lucille, not to mention the (probably years worth of) childish and stupid requests and demands he made of Jeff on KS. Can you imagine dealing with this guy as a customer? His entitled and arrogant attitude?

I bet that the people at KS are looking at this thread right now and are glad to be rid of him: now more than ever.

[East_Coast]

The thread Mr Scarboro is referring to is there for anyone to see. The facts remain that I sent him pics of the snakes he was trading, gave him all pertinent collecting info(Red Milks collected by Kirk Setser(locale included) sold to Shannon Brown bought by me)and explained more than once that a Red Milk(L.T.Syspila)from that area of Iowa isnt very RED. He got the snake in the pic I sent him and claimed it to be a Eastern milk(though it was keyed out as a Red Milk) and he doesnt know how to key out milks. Shannon and Kirk have attested to it. My customers mean alot to me so I paid the $50 for shipping and sent him a FREE replacement Red Milk and the second time he claimed the box arrived empty. Moral of the story, you cant make everyone happy no matter how hard you try. Please dont respond to this in this thread as it only encourages trolls. I hope this clears this up. I dont respond well to being called a liar. Thanks.

Jeff, how about the fact that you sent David a snake that was contained in a dirty sock?

REAL PROFESSIONAL.... You're quite a "businessman".

[charleshanklin]

The thread Mr Scarboro is referring to is there for anyone to see. The facts remain that I sent him pics of the snakes he was trading, gave him all pertinent collecting info(Red Milks collected by Kirk Setser(locale included) sold to Shannon Brown bought by me)and explained more than once that a Red Milk(L.T.Syspila)from that area of Iowa isnt very RED. He got the snake in the pic I sent him and claimed it to be a Eastern milk(though it was keyed out as a Red Milk) and he doesnt know how to key out milks. Shannon and Kirk have attested to it. My customers mean alot to me so I paid the $50 for shipping and sent him a FREE replacement Red Milk and the second time he claimed the box arrived empty. Moral of the story, you cant make everyone happy no matter how hard you try. Please dont respond to this in this thread as it only encourages trolls. I hope this clears this up. I dont respond well to being called a liar. Thanks.




What a Thayeri sale a year and a half ago? Didn't you sell a adult pair that were sick, cuss the customer up and down not refund the person? Ring a bell?

[David Scarboro]

The thread Mr Scarboro is referring to is there for anyone to see. The facts remain that I sent him pics of the snakes he was trading, gave him all pertinent collecting info(Red Milks collected by Kirk Setser(locale included) sold to Shannon Brown bought by me)and explained more than once that a Red Milk(L.T.Syspila)from that area of Iowa isnt very RED. He got the snake in the pic I sent him and claimed it to be a Eastern milk(though it was keyed out as a Red Milk) and he doesnt know how to key out milks. Shannon and Kirk have attested to it. My customers mean alot to me so I paid the $50 for shipping and sent him a FREE replacement Red Milk and the second time he claimed the box arrived empty. Moral of the story, you cant make everyone happy no matter how hard you try. Please dont respond to this in this thread as it only encourages trolls. I hope this clears this up. I dont respond well to being called a liar. Thanks.

I bet you wish that it was that simple. I invite anyone to take the time to read the thread in question, or any other of Jeff's bad guy threads. He was busted for lying and misrepresenting an animal in the thread I started. He has a long history here, none of it good.

[Southern Wolf]

Hi, thanks for your opinion, thats what I was asking in the beginning. And I do see that if you own a site you dont have to be right, and I felt wrong because I was a paying customer. Using your analogy wouldnt you want to know why you were asked to leave? Dont you think you should be afforded the same terms as anyone else? This thread is so long because I am taking the time to respond to so many people individually even if we dont see eye to eye. There have been a great many personal shots, plenty of attempts to get this thread to be about me. Anyone that wants to know me will know I am consistent, I take the time to answer every question, and I dont back down to online bullies even if I'm a new guy here. I find it very problematic that many chose to follow the thread to bash my snakes, which arent and never have been in question. I hope everyone like you who has read this far could eliminate the rhetorical discussion and look at the topic at hand. Thanks.

Hey Jr.... .you started the thread...therefore the thread is about YOU and KS. If you didn't want to be involved in the thread... you should have thought about that before you started it.

You have already been proven to be wrong and links to research has been provided. But yet... you still think you are right and smarter than 90% of the people here.

Do you realize it takes time to enact change... and you just happen to be on the front end of the change. It took months to get everyone here to comply with the new rules Rich put in place for the classifieds.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/southernwolf/Smilies/weinender_smili.gif

[charleshanklin]

Hey Jr.... .you started the thread...therefore the thread is about YOU and KS. If you didn't want to be involved in the thread... you should have thought about that before you started it.

You have already been proven to be wrong and links to research has been provided. But yet... you still think you are right and smarter than 90% of the people here.

Do you realize it takes time to enact change... and you just happen to be on the front end of the change. It took months to get everyone here to comply with the new rules Rich put in place for the classifieds.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/southernwolf/Smilies/weinender_smili.gif


Exactly! Somethings take a little time to complete. Patience and a little feed back would of been much more helpful and you would still have an account there.

[Lucille]

Please dont respond to this in this thread

I strongly suggest that you do not attempt to influence my posts. There are mods who will guide me if they see the need, but for you to try to step into the position of a mod now is .....laughable.

[Jeff Schofield]

Exactly! Somethings take a little time to complete. Patience and a little feed back would of been much more helpful and you would still have an account there.

Charles, you have to pick and choose your fights because if this thread proves anything you cant have a single arguement with everybody. I could cite literature proving my side of the story but again that is off topic. This thread isnt about any definition. I wasnt in the best mood that night as my Patriots had just lost to the Jets and Jeff B was sick. I waited a week and emailed him and apologized to no avail before I started this thread. I did my part I think. Even now others there we both know are basically saying the exact same thing in the forums that I said to Jeff B and there are no repercussions.....hence the title of the thread....hypocrisy.

[Southern Wolf]

Charles, you have to pick and choose your fights because if this thread proves anything you cant have a single arguement with everybody. I could cite literature proving my side of the story but again that is off topic. This thread isnt about any definition. I wasnt in the best mood that night as my Patriots had just lost to the Jets and Jeff B was sick. I waited a week and emailed him and apologized to no avail before I started this thread. I did my part I think. Even now others there we both know are basically saying the exact same thing in the forums that I said to Jeff B and there are no repercussions.....hence the title of the thread....hypocrisy.

Your so full of :censored: your eyes are brown.

YOU made this topic about definitions. YOU said your animals didn't belong in the hybrids section.

[akonitony]

I cant believe I read that whole thing. As an unbiased observer, who has never bred a snake in my life, I easily grasp the argument on the hybrid thing as explained here. Mythical snakes from location A eat rodents mostly, while snakes in location C eat mostly birds. Natural breeding in the wild might end up with AXC in the middle(location B) who like to eat frogs. Mix A and C in a tank and the babies might hate frogs.

I as far as the original topic goes, it doesn't seem fair that some ads got moved while others didn't. But I'm guessing its like someone else said. He was probably sick of the OP and used it as a reason. I'm bored with the guy after one thread. Might be the reason his ads got fast tracked to the new system in the first place for all I know. Doesn't really matter. If you own a site, you dont have to be right. You own it, and the right to do what you want with it, while deciding who else gets to do what on it, for any reason at any time. Its not like getting ripped off or done wrong to, its more like someone asking you to leave there home, even if its only because they're sick of your company.

The big question is, what now? Whats another 20 pages going to change? Nobody here is getting there minds changed about anything. Its kinda turned into one of those "beat the dead horse" things about 15 pages ago.

It is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people starting posting it not knowing what it was,
and now they can't stop posting it because:
It is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends...

[Steve_Zissou]

Your so full of :censored: your eyes are brown.

YOU made this topic about definitions. YOU said your animals didn't belong in the hybrids section.

:shootfoot game, set, match....winner by unanimous decision Southern Wolf.

I most certainly see your side of the argument, but i would like you to take a step back from the situation and try and think about it from somebody elses perspective than your own. Regardless the quality of your animals, the i can do no wrong attitude isnt helping in a discussion to prove your point. If you have literature that will prove you correct by all means please post it, this thread was started over the interpretation or misinterpretation of a word which led to your animals being moved. By all means if your definition is correct link us up and help us out cause your not making it easy to see anythnig else besides betting kingsnake is glad to be rid of the drama. I wish you the best jeff, i might have actually purchased something from you if i didnt read this thread. But what i can see, even if you have the best looking specimin ive ever seen, the customer service factor is lacking. Wish the time and energy devoted to this thread and to bashing somebody would have instead been put towards helping people with their questions in other threads.......this is a gross misuse of the knowledge on the site, so everybody lets just stop replying cause he cant argue if nobody is listening

[Jeff Schofield]

:shootfoot game, set, match....winner by unanimous decision Southern Wolf.

I most certainly see your side of the argument, but i would like you to take a step back from the situation and try and think about it from somebody elses perspective than your own. Regardless the quality of your animals, the i can do no wrong attitude isnt helping in a discussion to prove your point. If you have literature that will prove you correct by all means please post it, this thread was started over the interpretation or misinterpretation of a word which led to your animals being moved. By all means if your definition is correct link us up and help us out cause your not making it easy to see anythnig else besides betting kingsnake is glad to be rid of the drama. I wish you the best jeff, i might have actually purchased something from you if i didnt read this thread. But what i can see, even if you have the best looking specimin ive ever seen, the customer service factor is lacking. Wish the time and energy devoted to this thread and to bashing somebody would have instead been put towards helping people with their questions in other threads.......this is a gross misuse of the knowledge on the site, so everybody lets just stop replying cause he cant argue if nobody is listening

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

[Southern Wolf]

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

The topic is you because you started the thread... and KS because you wanted to complain about them.

For some strange reason you think you should be left out of the topic. Hate to burst your bubble... but it dont work that way.

[laterob]

:bandhead0 Enough alerady, Jeff! 23 pages of this now. You win.

Here's your prizes:
1. I agree there is hypocrisy going on.
2. You've alienated one (if not two) sources of business.
3. You've portrayed yourself as a raving, childish lunatic (at times).
4. You've convinced me, and perhaps others, to run from you.

What am I missing? About 20 pages ago, you sputtered some 'I can't sacrifice my principles' nonsense. You haven't. What was your desired outcome in all of this? Has it not been achieved?

Please, let it go. You win the arguement. If I see 'please stay on topic' from you again, I think I'll throw up.

[WebSlave]

If someone believes that a post is off topic, please use the "Report a post" function to report it to the moderators. They will handle it and make that determination without cluttering up this thread needlessly. It is NOT necessary to make a post in this thread proclaiming that this sort of thing has taken place.
:NoNo:

[scaledverts]

Jeff - You were asked to provide some evidence for your "definition" of hybrid and intergrade since evidence that refutes your "definition" has been presented numerous times. And you come back with this...........
Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many categories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

It has also been mentioned that when you change the policies of a website it will take some time before everything is worked out. Not to mention that the new category specifically says "Hybrid & Intergrade Colubrids," so unless you are seeing posts in the colubrid categories that are hybrids you don't have a leg to stand on anymore with your "hypocrisy" claims!

So there you have it. This post is "ON TOPIC" and it still shows that you really don't have much of a claim here.

[Steve_Zissou]

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

like i asked, this thread is based on the definition of a word. Kingsnake was in the process of updating their format at the time when this went down so they might not have had everything up and running at full speed and you possibly might have been the first vendor to have their animals "relisted" in a different category

However your entire defense is hinged on a definition. You say your hybrids are integrades and he made a hybrid and integrade section and that wasnt enough for you. i asked you last time that if you have information relative to proving your definition is correct to please post it. If you cant provide any information backign up your side then stop bad mouthing people in this thread. Show others your side not just tell us and expect us to follow blindly. I saw your animals posted on the forums, the firecracker is pretty. However as i previously stated, i dont care how beautiful the animals are if the customer service end is lacking.

You got banned from kingsnake, im sorry for that, but whining on a different forum like a child doesnt make you right it merely makes you childish. Help us understand your point cause merely telling us without citing sources wont cut it. If your so certain your definition is correct then show us because i have only seen you argue and never try to educate people on your stance. Cant help somebody that dont wanna be helped, cant talk to anybody that doesnt wanna listen, and cant give someone the benefit of the doubt if their not credible.

[Jeff Schofield]

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_con f_article.pdf

[East_Coast]

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_con f_article.pdf

Jeff,

Again, no offense, but regarding the semantic games (yes GAMES) you are playing with the words 'subspecies' and 'hybrid':

Most people (I think) in the hobby consider the breeding of two subspecies that would not naturally cross paths (like say a Florida King x California King) to be something less than a true "intergrade".

Since this common sense is getting in the way of you selling something shiny and new...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

... you will not relent until the whole world bows down to your reasoning.

We won't. As evidenced by Jeff at KS & most people in here... I believe you have lost this argument.

Maybe you could start selling the snakes with a pack of baseball cards(?) - or maybe give away a pet rock with them (I don't know... you could paint them or something?)...

I don't know Jeff... get creative. You're the "businessman" here and the GREAT MIND that has it all figured out.

Good luck...

[scaledverts]

So, I just found a dissertation that has some information pertinent to this thread. Basically it argues that L. g. brooksi is not any different than L. g. floridana. The easiest way to navigate it is to search for the species names.

Anyway, here is the link.

http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0000326/KKryskodissertation.pdf

Happy reading

[EdwardK]

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_con f_article.pdf


Jeff,

1) the definition you cited does not state anywhere that a hybrid is not an intergrade or vice versa.

2) the reference to http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
(the Junco paper is referring to a cross between two species... not subspecies as you maintain and if you read through to page 206, the article states quote "Hybrid mearnsi X caniceps individuals have been recognized previously"endquote. The best this paper does is indicate that hybrid and intergrade are interchangable even when used to describe crosses between species.

3) http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer again does not exclude hybrid from having the same meaning as intergrade.

4) again if you read through the paper (http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_con f_article.pdf) (eucalyptus one..) does not exclude intergrade and hybrid from having the same definition.. I have to reread it more closely but the page following the discussion of intergrades also appears to discuss those as being hybrids.

I suggest reading the citations I posted in this thread in post #168 (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=168) as those peer reviewed and published articles which readily demonstrate that intergrade and hybrid are used with the same meaning by the authors..

Some comments.

Ed

[hhmoore]

Comments about the quality, or value, of Mr Schofield's snakes are not pertinent to this thread. The debate over the difference between hybrids and intergrades has value...but isn't likely to be resolved here (it has, after all, been a point of contention for years).

[cobraman1]

Look, Everyone is going to have there own opinion of the defintions and I doubt anyone is going to change the way they think. The main point, as stated in the title, is that KS ONLY has a hybrid/intergrade division in the colubrid section. I agree that is is hypocritical to force the colubrid sellers to use this ad section but exclude everyone else. Its not fair at all actually. I have no problem with KS, but I do think if one person has to do something then they all should. I know some of you are saying its going to take time, but that is BS. Its been well over a month since all the changes have been made.

[kgmax1228]

I, Jeff Schofield, have been a user and paying patron of Kingsnake.com classifieds for about 7-8 years, maybe longer. I have had the usual forum run ins with trolls, and have had maybe 2 questionable transactions out of hundreds from the classifieds. My account and standing was pretty impeccable til last week, here is what happened:

I got a email from Jeff Barringer saying that my ads were moved from the KINGSNAKES catagory and placed in the HYBRIDS catagory. Now most of us know anything labelled HYBRID can affect your business reputation significantly. At the same time Jeff B went on the KINGSNAKE forum and informed people of the new HYBRID section. I responded to him there saying his term was incorrect on my snakes in particular(they are considered INTERGRADES), so he added "and INTERGRADES" to that same catagory. To this I responded that it was hypocritical to place such ads there considering that there are hybrids of many types in other catagories such as CROCODILIANS, BOA CONSTRICTORS, CARPET PYTHONS, OTHER SNAKES, and others just to name a few. He didnt go on any of those forums asking people to move their ads. In pointing this out to him I asked for a working definition FROM HIM so that we all can comply with the TOS and that everything is fair and we are playing on a level playing field. I copied and pasted about 20 ads from some of the biggest names in the industry who were advertising hybrids including Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro exotics and others. He responded by closing my account and removing me from his site saying more than once that I was telling him how to run his business. Now by calling my snakes HYBRIDS he has damaged my business, and by unjustly removing me he has damaged it even more. I have all correspondence from him on the matter, not much to argue from his point of view. But as a paying customer of many years in good standing I would expect some level of CUSTOMER SERVICE from him or one of his minions. Am I wrong? Is this LEGAL? As it stands right now there are an aweful lot of hybrids for sale on his site not in the HYBRIDS section including some of the exact snakes I was selling still in the KINGSNAKE section. I waited a week before posting here because he said he had pneumonia so maybe he would see his error and reconsider which he hasnt. He said that my asking to be reinstated was me telling him how to run his business!! Comments and suggestions please!!

You don't have to like them,only follow them-it is a dictatorship,NOT a democracy :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:

[David Scarboro]

You don't have to like them,only follow them-it is a dictatorship,NOT a democracy :NoNo::NoNo::NoNo:

Jeff Schofield used to go the forums at kingsnake.com and brag about his "island milksnakes" that he had found. He said they were a new species, he was in the process of getting DNA work done to prove it, yada yada yada. When I questioned him about it, he complained to Jeff Barringer and had my posts, and his removed! Karma is a Bitch! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff Schofield used to go the forums at kingsnake.com and brag about his "island milksnakes" that he had found. He said they were a new species, he was in the process of getting DNA work done to prove it, yada yada yada. When I questioned him about it, he complained to Jeff Barringer and had my posts, and his removed! Karma is a Bitch! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

David, I treated the forum as a forum, I dont see you callin out anyone else posting pics of the snakes they find as bragging. I didnt complain to have your posts removed, they were removed by the moderator because they were slanderous and off topic as usual. I will note that kingsnake.com has NOT changed their practices of selective enforcement and there are snakes available in the kingsnake section today that are exactly like the ones(same exact lineage)that got me banned. Hypocrisy lives.:rolleyes:

[David Scarboro]

David, I treated the forum as a forum, I dont see you callin out anyone else posting pics of the snakes they find as bragging. I didnt complain to have your posts removed, they were removed by the moderator because they were slanderous and off topic as usual. I will note that kingsnake.com has NOT changed their practices of selective enforcement and there are snakes available in the kingsnake section today that are exactly like the ones(same exact lineage)that got me banned. Hypocrisy lives.:rolleyes:

Actually, I haven't heard anyone else say that they had discovered a new species. You did. How did those DNA tests come out? I do not think it was so much what you did that got you banned, as the way you did it. You come off as a total ass, make sweeping inaccurate startements and are generally a jerk. You started an argument with Jeff B, the guy that owns the site! Smart!You have told me that you are the "consummate biologist", I think you got the first part fight, but the rules here prohibit me from finishing that.

[Jeff Schofield]

Actually, I haven't heard anyone else say that they had discovered a new species. You did. How did those DNA tests come out? I do not think it was so much what you did that got you banned, as the way you did it. You come off as a total ass, make sweeping inaccurate startements and are generally a jerk. You started an argument with Jeff B, the guy that owns the site! Smart!You have told me that you are the "consummate biologist", I think you got the first part fight, but the rules here prohibit me from finishing that.

David, just stop. Yes I had an inkling that they COULD be a SSP, and submitted the DNA for testing. If they were different do you really think a forum is the proper place to announce it?? You accuse me of "sweeping inaccurate statements", your whole diatribe is just that. I dont care who you are, when you descriminate its WRONG. Jeff B was and still is WRONG for how he handled it, I was simply standing up for myself. You can find the stupidest thing to complain about so next time get your facts straight please. Thanks.

[AbsoluteApril]

either take it to PMs or start an appropriate BOI if you really feel the need, this thread is about Kingsnake.com

thank you,
-April

[poppy]

I cant believe this thread is still going strong. 23 pages ago was more than I needed to hear.

[David Scarboro]

IMO a website is like a court. The webmaster, Jeff B in this case would be the judge. You don't argue with the judge. Jeff S did and he got slapped for contempt of court. It really doesn't matter whether you are wrong or right, the judge always wins. When the judge tells you something, in this case to move your ads, you do it. Or not, and suffer the consequences. Going next door to another courtroom (the BOI) and complaining loudly isn't going to help the case. I think any chance that Jeff S had to return eventually to advertising on KS was not helped by being argumentative. In a case like this, right or wrong, Jeff B can just take his ball and go home. And he did.

[Lucille]

I agree.

[Jeff Schofield]

Still the thread isnt about me getting kicked off KS, it is about the hypocrisy on the website. If a judge railroads me, bends the rules to fit their hypocrisy what choice does one have but to come to the BOI and divulge their practices? The thread is topical and appropriate despite the haters, and its noteworthy that the same UNFAIR practices continue to this day no matter how many TX people try and defend him.

[Lucille]

TX

So... you posting on the kingsnake forum calling Jeff out and trying to start a riot wasn't the cause of you getting banned? :rolleyes:

You mouthed off to jeff b over how he chose to reorganize his classified categories. He tried to be reasonable and compromise. You continued to mouth off and he banned you. End of story. Get over it.


There seem to be plenty of comments from people all over the US........

[David Scarboro]

Still the thread isnt about me getting kicked off KS, it is about the hypocrisy on the website..
YOU can't separate the two.


If a judge railroads me, bends the rules to fit their hypocrisy what choice does one have but to come to the BOI and divulge their practices?

YOUR QUOTE "That BOI is a joke now anyways(the traffic is down 70%!),having people PAY to complain about others is a farce"


The thread is topical and appropriate despite the haters, and its noteworthy that the same UNFAIR practices continue to this day no matter how many TX people try and defend him.

EVERYONE is always out to get you aren't they?

[Jeff Schofield]

There seem to be plenty of comments from people all over the US........

Not sure who WRAITH is but I neither tried to start a "riot" nor was he "reasonable or willing to compromise". All I wanted is to be treated like everyone else on the website, thats all I STILL want. How can you defend unequal treatment is beyond me....and isnt JeffB from TX too? Coincidence??

[Jeff Schofield]

YOU can't separate the two.




YOUR QUOTE "That BOI is a joke now anyways(the traffic is down 70%!),having people PAY to complain about others is a farce"




EVERYONE is always out to get you aren't they?

David, I'd think anyone reading any of your followups should laugh. I am here using the site for whats its meant for and you cant stop slingin mud. YEARS after I bent over backwards, sent you a FREE snake and even paid shipping you continue to try and hijack my thread. There is another thread about US, if you want to comment or email to me please contact me over there so we can keep this thread on topic. Thanks.

[David Scarboro]

David, I'd think anyone reading any of your followups should laugh. I am here using the site for whats its meant for and you cant stop slingin mud. YEARS after I bent over backwards, sent you a FREE snake and even paid shipping you continue to try and hijack my thread. There is another thread about US, if you want to comment or email to me please contact me over there so we can keep this thread on topic. Thanks.

Sorry Chief, But me addressing your responses is on topic, Your reply above is not...

[Lucille]

isnt JeffB from TX too? Coincidence??

I'm walking away from that one after considering the source.

The fact is, you argued not in just one post but a number of times with JeffB about how he wanted his site to be run, and he banned you, and you have spent considerable time whining about it; I don't think you've won people over to your point of view.