Lair of Dragons - Jodi Lease / Travis Delaney: Questionable quarantine practices...

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Lair of Dragons (username "lairofdragons" is registered to Jodi Lease, but ad listed by Travis Delaney) has recently posted a group of ball pythons for sale in the classifieds. In this ad, they mentioned buying out a partial colleciton in order to obtain the animals they wanted, and sell off the rest. While this in itself is common practice, I feel there are some major red flags with what followed next regarding their extreme disregard for proper quarantine practices:

Here we go....
I bought out a partial collection with Ball Pythons I didn't need to get the ones I wanted....I should keep them but need some of the money I spent for other projects. So here is the stupidity.

All have been cooled and currently breeding as you read this. None have produced this season..so yes I am stupid for not keeping them.

***JUST FOR THE SELECT FEW....I FOUND NO REASON TO QUARANTINE THEM FOR ANY AMOUNT OF TIME...THOUGH SOME SAY I SHOULD HAVE JUST TO FIND OUT WHAT I ALREADY KNOW. IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.

NONE WILL BE SPLIT UP and NO TRADES and ALL PRICES ARE VERY FIRM...So please don't ask

Pic. 1
Adult Pair of Pastels. Female 1438g Male 1271g
Pastel female was paired with a Spider since November..she is the one on the left and if I could have got a better pic you can see the blue "shed" eyes...could be a P.O.S. can't fell eggs but doesn't mean there not there.
Pair only.......$1100.00 plus shipping...very firm

Pic. 2
Adult Albino's. Female 1465g Male 709g
Albino has been paired with a Albino sine November...She is the one with the old scar on her back. I have examined the scar and can find no reason why it won't shed off in a few sheds. She shed TODAY...so it could be the P.O.S. shed. My male started breeding her within 15 minutes. He is the one in the Pic. Can't feel eggs but may already be there.
Pair only.........$1500.00 plus shipping...very firm

Pic. 3
Nice Pied Male....682g
Just brought him home today and he is breeding my Axanthic as I type. I already have a breeding Pied male and if I didn't I would keep this one for sure. He's nicer than mine..ALOT more white but I am attached to the one I already have.
He is $1500.00 plus shipping ...very firm

If you want all 5...the Pastel pair, the Albino pair and the Pied male I will let you have them for $3800.00 plus shipping.

So there you have it...if you have any questions you can call me or text to 717-608-7424 or just send me an email, the old fashion way, to contact@lairofdragons.com

Thank you,

Travis
Lair of Dragons


So not only did they admit to bringing a large group of animals from an undefined source directly into their own collection without ANY quarantine whatsoever, they then proceeded to breed them to their existing animals right off the bat, including a male pied that was just acquired TODAY and is already breeding their existing axanthic female, and THEN decided to offer these unquarantined animals to the public. IMO, this not only poses huge risks to anyone purchasing the flipped animals being offered for sale, but also anyone that purchases any other animals from them as there is now NO way to know what may or may not have passed into their collection. I feel that this is information that the community needs to be aware of, hence my post here.

For reference, this is the classified ad:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226326

Screen shots of the ad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/RavaFlava/LairOfDragons.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/RavaFlava/LairOfDragons2.jpg

I also saved the pictures of the animals that were posted within the ad and can post them here if needed.

How many more people need to suffer devastating losses before people in this hobby will get it through their heads that quarantine is NOT something to be taken lightly or skipped altogether? How can anyone be so cavalier with the health and safety of OTHER people's collections and livelihoods? :shrug01:

[bullies&balls]

Really, a bio thread over this. You better add all the big boys to it. I'm sure most will not "willingly" admitt to this, but the big boys have their little guys with the killer collections that rather fly under the radar t hen shine bright. Snakes are traded between these breeders all the time as well.

Is this a smart move on the persons part, Nope not really. Is this BIO worthy, Nope not really IMO.

[bkline]

I agree with bob. Not the smartest on his half but definitely not boi worthly. Atleast everyone that was interested in the "lot" of animals knew they weren't quarantined. Even tho they were some clean looking animals he posted in the pictures

[hhmoore]

So not only did they admit to bringing a large group of animals from an undefined source directly into their own collection
I'm not missing your point, but what does defining the source got to do with anything?

IMO, the seller is being up front about things, and letting the buyer decide. The seller also specifically states the following:
IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.
Granted, that was in response to the initial version of the ad, which was removed by the seller (in effect, saving people from themselves); but it doesn't change the statement.

He also clarifies it in response to a member's question
So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.
A lot of people do quarantine multiple acquisitions in a single area, and it should be pretty obvious that every time a new animal is added, there is potential for cross contamination from either direction. The seller makes a valid point about isolating quarantine animals, even from other quarantine animals. He didn't do it himself, though, and that point isn't lost on anybody.

There are hundreds of people across the country that do essentially the same thing (minus, perhaps, immediately throwing new acquisitions with their current animals then sitting down to type up the ad). It's been mentioned many times that some vendors do a lot of buying and trading before the shows start, and a large portion of the time those animals are then put right up for sale without any mention of them being newly purchased. People are selling out right and left, and those collections are bought and sold - just like this.
Sure - that is one of the strongest arguments against resellers (flippers, if you want to go there) - and being commonplace doesn't make it "right"; but as a group they do serve a purpose in our hobby and in "the industry". As far as I'm concerned, the ones that are honest and upfront about the fact that they just got something are on the better end of the spectrum (I've come across many that are blatantly dishonest).

With it spelled out in black and white, the potential buyer is making an informed decision...find a seller that is being less forthright about it, and the complaints/concerns will take on a whole new perspective (IMO).

The obvious response to my post is to ask a) whether I would handle the sale the way this seller did, and b) if I would purchase those animals. The answer to both is No. a) I rarely purchase animals to resell, and when I have done so, I've usually had a buyer already lined up that is aware that I am purchasing it for them. (In some cases, I've still held onto the animals for 2-3 months before turning them over.) b) I've seen a few snakes for sale recently that I've had some interest in, and lost interest for the same reason - because they have already been paired with something. I'm incredibly picky, and I choose pairings based on specific desires. I don't want random babies from whatever males somebody decided to throw in with a female. There are VERY few females I would consider purchasing once they are paired with something; and more than likely I would insist on pictures of what she was paired with, as well as assurances that it was only that one male.

[lairofdragons]

Thank you Mr Moore..
And just for the record the account is under Jodi Lease from when we first registered with FC back n 2006 but the business is mine, and post are from me and me alone. She has nothing to do with the business "Lair of Dragons" it is just easier to leave the account info in her name than to start a whole new account because of older post and research from potential customers...so I have been told. if the account info can be switched over to my name and everything stays tied into the account let me know and I will do so.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[Cp3_Pythons]

Im with Bob and Brendon
In all honesty this/ the info stated above IMHO didn't warrent a Bad Guy Boi at all. Take this how you will but IMO its a little childish to start a thread over something like that as it clearly states in the ad and Harald brung it into play

IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.
So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.

REALLY STRAIGHT FOWARD the statement above makes it sound as if it should be a good guy thread with that type of backing on the animals

Yes many IMO I belive many larger breeders do the same now wether or not they say is questionable as well as some people even breed females that aren't quite 1500 grams Should we start a BAD GUY thread on each and everyone of them???

I've gotten animals from people I regularly do business withand have taken his animals and placed them right into my rack as I personally know the source Im getting the animals from and trust him 125% without a doubt now there's only 2 people I buy from that I trust that much to take whatever animal Im purchasing from there collection and place it right in my rack Now I guess I can have a Bad Guy Thread too right????
Now do I do that for every animal I recive NO I place animals I obtain from unknown people (People I dont know or know of that well) or animals from Shows into a tightly quarantined program

IDK deff not worthy of a Bad Guy Thread although SMH

[Shadera]

And yet, you freely admit you're buying albinos from Outback? Really? A bit hypocritical of you, to say the least.

I guess if they have something you want, flippin' is fine with you. :rolleyes_

[mxracer4life]

Im with Bob and Brendon
In all honesty this/ the info stated above IMHO didn't warrent a Bad Guy Boi at all. Take this how you will but IMO its a little childish to start a thread over something like that as it clearly states in the ad and Harald brung it into play

IF YOU PURCHASE THEM AND FIND ANYTHING WRONG I WILL PAY YOUR VET BILLS AND REFUND YOU EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPENT INCLUDING SHIPPING COST BOTH WAYS.
So...you are asking if I will cover everything in a quarantine room if these are introduced into that room and everything in there developes a problem...I would have to say no to that because there would be no way to prove if the so called "problem" was from what you got from me or from what you already have in there.
I am saying...buy them...quarantine them alone....vet check them with every test possible and if you find anything I will do what I said above.

REALLY STRAIGHT FOWARD the statement above makes it sound as if it should be a good guy thread with that type of backing on the animals

Yes many IMO I belive many larger breeders do the same now wether or not they say is questionable as well as some people even breed females that aren't quite 1500 grams Should we start a BAD GUY thread on each and everyone of them???

I've gotten animals from people I regularly do business withand have taken his animals and placed them right into my rack as I personally know the source Im getting the animals from and trust him 125% without a doubt now there's only 2 people I buy from that I trust that much to take whatever animal Im purchasing from there collection and place it right in my rack Now I guess I can have a Bad Guy Thread too right????
Now do I do that for every animal I recive NO I place animals I obtain from unknown people (People I dont know or know of that well) or animals from Shows into a tightly quarantined program

IDK deff not worthy of a Bad Guy Thread although SMH

Just to clear things up, and I am by no means agreeing with the OP, but this isn't a "Bad guy" thread, it is merely an info thread, a little bit of a difference.

[Pink Lady Exotics]

And yet, you freely admit you're buying albinos from Outback? Really? A bit hypocritical of you, to say the least.

I guess if they have something you want, flippin' is fine with you. :rolleyes_

I didn't say the issue was flipping. I said the issue was quarantine. Please re-read the above. I also have done business with Josh Norwood years ago and it went great, thus the basis for my decision now. The albinos in question went through quarantine there, and will go through quarantine here. Thus I see no problems.

This is not a Bad Guy thread. It is an Info thread.

[Drew Zaun]

Just to clear things up, and I am by no means agreeing with the OP, but this isn't a "Bad guy" thread, it is merely an info thread, a little bit of a difference.

Exactly.

I might also point out, without accusing anyone of anything, that a relaxed attitude towards quarantine may accompany a relaxed attitude towards other husbandry practices, and some people are extremely careful about their own collections and may wish to exclude such people based only on suppositions.

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

[LauraB]

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

[Cp3_Pythons]

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

:iagree: :iagree:

[Cp3_Pythons]

:iagree: :iagree:

Sorry I hit the enter button twice and two fast But I was going to say along with what is above is that sort of honesty alone is enough to make me want to do business with someone... I mean seriously you dont find that sort of honesty all the time anymore

[Drew Zaun]

Or they could have seen it right there in the ad, where the seller clearly (and truthfully) stated same - along with his guarantee. Obviously the seller isn't trying to hide anything.

But if someone does a little research 6 months from now? Could not that thread be altered or deleted? Is that not the point of this forum, things are here for the duration?

I agree the subject is open and honest, however he might not always indicate in every add that he doesn't quarantine...some people might like to know that.

[lairofdragons]

I do quarantine when I see the need to do so...
For example, If I buy from a show...you bet, you don't know whats in the air. Scares me to death to even to know I will be taking my snakes to a show. Everyone walks around handling everyone's snakes then mine. You have no idea what they were touching. I kept hand cleaner on my table at both ends and in the middle when I was doing dragons but still you never know if that worked.
If I buy from a breeder who imports..I always quarantine.
If I buy from a breeder with a questionable reputation.
If I simply do not like the looks of something, scars that look like they should have already healed, to much mucus in the mouth, etc.
If I have had hardly any communication with the seller.
Or if I just have a bad feeling.
My quarantine area is completely on a different floor in my house, upstairs and my reptiles are in the finished basement. Not just across the room or down the hall or in a room next door.

But these snakes that everyone is questioning about and my husbandry practices came from a breeder with a 21 snake collection, which is less than half the size of mine, I talked to him and asked the questions to let me know what kind of breeder he is. I examined every snake before I handed over the money. I almost bought the whole collection after I seen the condition of these snakes.

Anyone who wants to come to my house and examine my collection is more than welcome to. Just give me a call to make sure I am off work and so I have time to at least time to get dressed and pick up my house a little in case my three year old went on a tornado spree.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Travis, it is against BOI rules for you to be posting under another individuals account. I believe you need to message Rich (Webslave) to get the account name corrected.

[lairofdragons]

Thank you and if you check on Rich's page you will see I just did that not less than 5 minutes ago.
Mr Moore told me to get it changed and to contact him earlier today. I told him I would do it asap...just got home from work, just ate dinner, responded to the forums about me and wrote him.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[Pink Lady Exotics]

But if someone does a little research 6 months from now? Could not that thread be altered or deleted? Is that not the point of this forum, things are here for the duration?

I agree the subject is open and honest, however he might not always indicate in every add that he doesn't quarantine...some people might like to know that.

This is exactly the reason I brought this here.

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Exactly.

I might also point out, without accusing anyone of anything, that a relaxed attitude towards quarantine may accompany a relaxed attitude towards other husbandry practices, and some people are extremely careful about their own collections and may wish to exclude such people based only on suppositions.

Having this thread here makes it easier for those people to find the information they need, while others are free to disregard if they choose.

This is the point I was getting at. It isn't necessarily about THESE specific unquarantined animals. It is about the obvious lack of concern for disease spread which can indicate a lack of concern for other things as well, including the risk they are posing to others. As someone that has been on the recieving end of such risk, I for one would appreciate it if there were threads like this that would warn me if certain people have admitted to not practicing any quarantine. If anyone else were to have the same practices as Travis (or lack thereof), I would hope it would be brought to the public's attention so that anyone else considering future potential business transactions can weigh this factor in their decision. "Guarantee" or no "guarantee", I will NOT risk my animals nor support someone that does so. I know quite a few others that feel the same way.

Travis, you say you observed these animals before purchasing. For how long? Are you 100% positive that NONE are carrying IBD and just haven't shown symptoms or happened to be having a "good day"? Are you 100% positive that NONE are carrying a paramyxovirus or something similar, just not symptomatic yet? That is the reason for quarantine -- to observe new animals in a separate state from your existing collection, to ensure that no diseases or parasites rear their ugly heads and thus end up transmitted to your healthy individuals. This takes months, not one day. Are you truly not worried whatsoever about these kind of risks? Do you not see how something like this lack of concern would send up red flags to anyone considering doing business with you?

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Also, this thread is here in the BOI because it is discussing a specific person, a specific issue, and a specific sale (or one being offered). Per Fauna rules, this cannot be discussed anywhere else unless done without discussing the actual seller -- which would defeat the entire purpose.

[lairofdragons]

Jen,
You know how long I observed these animals its in my ad, and as far as your loss that you received on your end I am truly sorry...you must have followed your own advice about quarantine...which I believe is something like you quarantine for 30 days if it someone you know and 60-90+ plus days if you don't know them. Disease can pop up at anytime, just a little stress can trigger all sorts of underlying problem that has been laying dormant.
As far as me bringing my practices to the public I did in my ad...quite obvious...not trying to hide anything. It's like I posted a Buyer Beware on myself.....hmmm
You asked if I was truly not worried whatsoever about these kinds of risk?
I am not with these snakes and if I am wrong I did disclose what I would do about it.
You asked if I don't see how something like this lack of concern would send up red flags to anyone considering doing business with me. Who people decide to do business thats there choice and at least they know with me what they are getting on these snakes. Can you say the same about every snake you have bought. I didn't want a unseen red flag turning into a red banner.
I will run my business the way I want to...I will be honest with every buyer so it doesn't come back on me. The customer can decide what he wants to do with what he buys from me and I will do the same with what I buy. I am in this business for the long haul and I am trying not to start out on the wrong foot. I have made some some small mistakes along the way and if you are not getting better at anything you do you are only getting worse. I have over 60 snakes mostly breeders and rookies and I am just getting started.
You act like you caught me in some type of LIE..and started this post because of it.
If you ask me you should have started a post on "Quarantine Practices...What are yours?" would have been better headline then trying to drag me down.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[Drew Zaun]

I will run my business the way I want to... I have over 60 snakes mostly breeders and rookies and I am just getting started....
You act like you caught me in some type of LIE..and started this post because of it.


Ok, nobody is trying to drag you down. To illustrate the point I made earlier, there is at least one person who stated in the Caspillo thread (which is all about quarantine at the base level) that she does not even go to reptile shows for what she fears she will bring back to her collection. She is not talking about purchases but rather pathogens.

Your ad can be altered or deleted at any time, but this thread cannot. If the person I referenced above sees another ad by you, or goes to your web site and strikes a fancy with what you are selling, she might come here and run a search.

You want to run your business and your collection the way you want to, well others have that same right, and now this information is here to stay. I am not calling you out or anything, but you are not saying anything that just about every scammer on this site has not said over and over, and since not everyone here knows you personally there is no way to know if you are going to remain honest or not. No offense, just a dose of pragmatism with a dash of cynicism.

And by the by, a lot bad guy threads involving health, and boy there sure are a ton of them, have quarantine as a key ingredient. As someone who is "just starting out"...you may want to keep that in mind. And I am not just talking about you showing up here as the subject of a true BG thread, but also someone who could possibly lose the 60 or so animals you have at the moment. There are a fair number of members on this forum who have learned that lesson the hard way...why not learn from them as opposed to finding out the same way?

[lairofdragons]

Drew,
I am just starting out with snakes as a business but I am not just starting out with snakes in general. I am 42 as of last Sunday and when I was 21 I was working for Wes Harris at his pet store in OKC "For Pet Sakes" taking care of his collection of over 200+ snakes on a daily basis, who here shortly in collaboration with VPI produced the "Lav Snow'.
Some of the big snakes I had back then "Burms" I went to Bob Clark's and hand picked out of the clutch...I have a pic of me draping over my shoulder his Leusistic Burm and a autographed pic of it hanging in my snake room. I seen and held one of the first Albino's BP's in the US when they were selling for $7500.00 and he is telling me in person what it might take to produce another but even he didn't know it was recessive at the time . So I am not new to husbandry practices I started out around the best there is in my mind.
I got out of reptiles for to many years and now that I am back into it i am blown away by the morphs that are on the market. Yes practices have changed and yes I am always learning and yes as I stated earlier "If you are not getting better you are getting worse" well I would like to think I am getting better.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[FosterHerpetological]

Wow is this really even necessary? He stated it in his classified, now its up to the buyer to come up with their own conclusion. Hes not trying to hide anything obviously.

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Ok, nobody is trying to drag you down. To illustrate the point I made earlier, there is at least one person who stated in the Caspillo thread (which is all about quarantine at the base level) that she does not even go to reptile shows for what she fears she will bring back to her collection. She is not talking about purchases but rather pathogens.

Your ad can be altered or deleted at any time, but this thread cannot. If the person I referenced above sees another ad by you, or goes to your web site and strikes a fancy with what you are selling, she might come here and run a search.

You want to run your business and your collection the way you want to, well others have that same right, and now this information is here to stay...

...There are a fair number of members on this forum who have learned that lesson the hard way...why not learn from them as opposed to finding out the same way?

Thank you for more eloquently writing what I have been trying to say.

Travis,
My current quarantine procedures were developed as a direct result of my experience. I once practiced another version, similar to what you are practicing -- the "Oh, these snakes look just fine" method or the "I know this guy pretty well, his snakes should be just fine and I'm not too worried" method. I took risks that I was ignorant to, despite the advice of others, and I suffered DEARLY for it. I would prefer you learn from MY mistake before you suffer the same or cause someone else to and send your reputation down the toilet. Let me tell you, seeing your animals die excrutiating, horrific deaths that you have zero ability to stop despite spending thousands of dollars in testing, medication, and research, is a really crappy feeling. I use "crappy" lightly here. Worse, knowing that YOU are the reason it was as catastrophic as it was because if you had practiced strict quarantine procedures, it would have been contained to just the source animal and those in quarantine with it...that is the worst part of all. Having to go through your snake room, tub after tub, rack after rack, picking up the snakes you busted your butt to earn the money to buy, raised up from tiny hatchlings, and the snake you had for years as your beloved first pet...looking them in the eye as you put them into pillowcases and into the freezer, knowing their hearts will stop beating...only something like that will make you truly realize the DIRE importance of quarantine. It still haunts me almost every day, even over 2 years later. I've started over, and I look at the new snakes I have and feel pain, because I miss the ones I had so much. They will never replace them. That is why I am as passionate about it as I am.

If you choose not to learn from the experiences of myself and others that have gone through the same, then I feel that your potential buyers have the right to know the risks you take before making their decisions one way or another so that THEY can make informed decisions. Once these animals are sold, you still have all the ones they came in contact with, and odds are will end up doing something else like this further down the road since you take it so lightly. At that point, the original ad will be gone, but this thread will be here to provide information to interested parties. It is up to you what you do after this to reassure your buyers that they are purchasing healthy, well-cared for, disease-free, SAFE animals and are purchasing from a seller that believes in nothing but high quality, supreme husbandry standards, and strong ethics.

[PAVLOVK1025]

Everyone who asks if this is necessary....this is just an info thread, so yes. Information is always welcome. This isn't just the "String 'em up and watch 'em hang" section of the site, it can be used to inform the public of something you noticed without having all the dramatics of calling out a business. Hence the options: Bad/Good Guy and Info.

Jen wants to make people aware of improper quarantine procedures and has every right to do so. Thank you Jen.

Travis has the courtesy to tell his customer the whole truth about what he's doing and where the snakes came from. Thank you Travis.

The rest is on the buyer to figure out with all this newly presented info.

~(--, )

--> p.s.-thumbs up on crusade for ethics, much better than that last one ;)

[polasian]

Travis...you consistently speak of honesty...lets talk about that. The following was brought to light in early Dec (I forgot all about it until I noticed this thread :o)...it involves 5 accounts...

On 12-01-2010 lairofdragons signed this post with "Travis" which is odd considering the name under the account is "Jodi Lease."

Instead of going through FC private message...call me at 717-608-7424 or email me at contact@lairofdragons.com
Let me know something about the last message
Travis

After looking into it, what we found was pathetic (sorry for the length of this...)

One or two people are responsible for 5 accounts. lairofdragons is the primary account (although tdawg222 seems to be Travis's account)...the other three which were perma-banned back in Dec (JAYDUK, slitheringstevie, chy5) were created for the sole purpose of upping lairofdragons's rep.


lairofdragons has many IP's but only two of those IP's match other users... (the following 4 users have no IP matches with anyone but themselves and lairofdragons)

65.201.167.254;
JAYDUK

68.36.120.254;
slitheringstevie
chy5
tdawg222

The following is a BOI Inquiry thread for "Lair of dragons" (lairofdragons)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97438

- JAYDUK vouched for them within that thread (that was the only post made from this account).

- JAYDUK was created on the very same day that the Inquiry thread was posted. That was also the last time this account ever logged onto FC.

Its obvious that the JAYDUK account was registered by lairofdragons for the sake of patting themselves on the back.


---------------------------------------------------------------


The same EXACT story...but different accounts (slitheringstevie & chy5)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88887

- chy5 was the OP of this good guy thread (its a bit ironic that the # 5 is in that username...considering that there are 5 accounts playing games). His ONLY other post is in the following classifieds ad (he made that post only to agree with the post that lairofdragons made within that very thread...posts 3 & 5)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86110

- slitheringstevie made one post on the 20th, which was the day after the above Good Guy thread was posted...he's never logged onto FC since that day. That post was to vouch for lairofdragons.

Again, its obvious what the intent behind the registration of the above two accounts was.


---------------------------------------------------------------


That leaves us with one more account...tdawg222. This is Travis Delaney...the same Travis who signed the post which started this mess.

tdawg222 made two posts. One was an unrelated inquiry for a bearded dragon in some third party's ad. His other post was...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82624
06-26-2006, 09:29 PM
I have a 10 lot of "Hypo Salmon/Hypo Pastel x Citrus" all 7 to 8 weeks
old and eating great 5 males and 5 females....some have very brilliant
oranges and greys showing up at this young age........$400.00 for the
whole lot plus shipping....sorry no paypal......money order only...for
pics of each one email me at beardeddragons06@yahoo.com

He deleted that ad just in time for lairofdragons to post the same animals for sale (the following ad was edited one and a half hours after it was posted...that explains the drop from 10 to 8 available animals)...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82631
06-26-2006, 11:00 PM
We have only eight left "hypo salmon/hypo pastel x citrus" babies and have decided to price them according to colors they are showing at this time....4 males and 4 females to choose from....15% discount applies, that means you can own one of these babies for only $42.00, we have others available for as low as $25.00....to see pics go to www.lairofdragons.com under available tab.


Personally, I find disgusting that someone would attempt to make a mockery out of the BOI. On the other hand, it was years ago (the last time they did this was in 07')...shady self promotion, although frowned upon, isn't as malicious as using multiple accounts to scam people (although I guess their actions could be considered a scam).

Travis's does seem to be an honest individual (in this thread)...perhaps the games that he played on the BOI were just thoughtless mistakes :shrug01:. I'm just putting the information out there, and its for you guys to decide for yourselves whether or not this was a lapse in judgment or lack of character (or both).

[lairofdragons]

Polasian,
As I stated a few post back I have made mistakes along the way but the info you are bringing up is close to 4 years old. I took some bad advice back then and was just starting out in the dragon business. I learned from it in more than one way. People make mistakes its how we learn. If you want to judge me from what I did four years ago then that is your choice and anyone who reads this post.
I bet it you dug up the past on almost everyone in here as you spent so much time on me you would find I am not the only one.
I will not deny any of the info posted above.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[gsrept]

holy witch hunt why don't we put every one up on a boi. there is not one person here that does not do something that someone else likes, we all do things different does Harold get a boi thread because he put a new snake in with an existing to breed right away, i mean come on people relax and stop fighting amongst each other instead help educate.

[polasian]

Travis's does seem to be an honest individual (in this thread)...perhaps the games that he played on the BOI were just thoughtless mistakes :shrug01:. I'm just putting the information out there, and its for you guys to decide for yourselves whether or not this was a lapse in judgment or lack of character (or both).

I thought I was being sympathetic :shrug01:.

However, the lack of accountability...

Polasian,
As I stated a few post back I have made mistakes along the way but the info you are bringing up is close to 4 years old.

...and "they do it too" BS...


I bet it you dug up the past on almost everyone in here as you spent so much time on me you would find I am not the only one

...has me second guessing my initial opinion of you.

Yes, you did waste a lot of my time but don't feel special, you're not some pet project of mine. We're consistently looking into others who also (unfortunately) play these games. As moderators, we're tasked with preserving the integrity of this website. Yes, it was 4 years ago...so its no longer relevant? People work their :censored:es off to EARN a good guy thread, you however chose to manipulate others into believing you're stand up. Sure, everyone makes mistakes...now its time for you to be help accountable for yours.

I will not deny any of the info posted above.

...and that's a good start (not like you had any real choice, though).

...instead help educate.

Hence my post.

[lairofdragons]

This is the exact reason I faded away from this site for so long....the BS witch hunts...thanks Craig I couldn't have put it any better.

JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS...I have have been communicating with Rich(webslave) about setting up a account with my name and keeping my business name the same. You can go to his page and read my post for the reasons if you so desire. Not doing it to try to cover anything up, as I stated to him in responses to my questions.

If you want to know why I post under Jodi name...its all there. Husbands and wifes run businesses together do they all need separate account to preform the same business. She has not been involved in this business for a long, long time.
I have sold 100's of dragons over the past few years....dig up dirt on those transactions if you want, chances are you won't find much if anything at all. I have had dealing were I went way out of my guarantee guidelines to make customers happy. I started out on the wrong foot and changed my business model and the way I treat my customers along the way. LIKE I SAID BEFORE..."If you are not getting better you are getting worse"
Now I will try to get the new account set up tonight if not tomorrow...just walked through the door after a look week at work.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[Lucille]

the BS witch hunts

Does this happen? Maybe in the past where people were just getting back at each other for whatever reasons, one would start a thread on the other.

But THIS thread is an info thread and a good one about an important subject. You are in the spotlight here, but it is not a witch hunt, it is an examination of practices and husbandry. To minimize such a discussion makes you appear smaller in the eyes of the community. It's important. Participate.

[lairofdragons]

Lucille,
What do the last 3 or 4 post or more have to do with "Quarantine"?

What do the last 3 or 4 post or more have to do with Husbandry tactics?

They are about me, they are about my past, I stated in my ad the truth, didn't try to hide it, mislead in any way shape or form but I feel like I am on a Cross.

The subject of this thread has been lost and pulled in the wrong direction. I ain't looking for Karma, I ain't looking to be considered a good guy, just don't have a reason to be considered a bad guy for stuff that I have done in my past. If so string me up, dump gas and Burn baby Burn...
In the past three years I have tried to do everything right in the eyes of the public. I take care of my customers, I have friends that are breeders that I talk to on a regular basis about new ideas.
I didn't try to pull the subject of this thread on to spotlight of me...it was about quarantine...wasn't it?
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[Lucille]

it was about quarantine...wasn't it?


Travis, you are the sum of your parts. Overcoming a bad history can be done with time and hard work and good deeds. But pointing fingers and complaining does not help you.
If you wish to talk about quarantine, then talk. Many people, when questioned about something they have done (quarantine, or the lack of it) immediately defend.
Take time to think it through. I'm not telling you how to think, but if after reading this thread you would want to change how you do stuff, say so.

[Lair of Dragons]

Lucille,
I did post my quarantine practices on page 2...5th post...I ain't defending my practices I put them in writing.

Now lets think about something here:
When someone buys these snakes that this forum is about or for that matter any snake several things are going to happen when it come to quarantine:
A) they are going to quarantine them for their set amount of time
B) they are going to take them to a vet and have test run
C) they are going to just add them to their collection because they visually see nothing wrong with them or trust the breeder they got them from
D) they are going to resale them or trade them

Breeders take snakes to shows all the time, they have the best husbandry practices but they are still introducing them to a environment full of who knows what for a full day or a weekend. Then they do what...take them back home and quarantine them again for a set amount of time. I don't think so...but if they do how long should that time be. You are surrounded with imports and hundreds of people touching everything they are interested in. I bet you if you where to follow all the vendors home from a show they just walk through the door and put them back into their original environment with the rest of their collection.
This thread was started because I stated in my ad "I just bought these, I didn't quarantine them, I saw no reason too...." and when someone else buys them they have the choice to make what they want to do as far as quarantine but at least they know I didn't.

I HAVE ONE MORE THING TO ADD:
I ask that you please do this:

Now I have my new account under my name now this is the last response I will be making on this post, so if you want to continue this conversation please start a new forum thread and just put a foot note that this thread is continued but now its in the correct account holders name. I don't need my wifes name popping every time someone adds to this thread. I have my reasons for making this request and you are more than welcome to PM me to ask why or email me. JUST remember I would do the same for you and I know many others would as well.

if there are any Moderators that have the ability to lock this thread so someone can start a new one if they desire, please do so if it is possible.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[gsrept]

Travis i would have to agree with you if some one buys a snake from you or anybody else its up to them to quarintine or put right into there own colony. and you are just as likely to get something at a show as buying from another seller. good luck with your sales and hopefully people will get off there high horse and come back to reality.

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Travis i would have to agree with you if some one buys a snake from you or anybody else its up to them to quarintine or put right into there own colony.

True. But the people in this hobby need to be responsible for the animals they keep and the animals they sell to other people. The responsibility lies on the seller to provide healthy animals that have been screened for potential illnesses. Especially if they are reselling or brokering animals they purchased from elsewhere -- the responsibility becomes even bigger. Reselling or "flipping" animals is a pretty common practice and is harmless if done properly. But if someone is reselling newly acquired animals and not practicing any kind of quarantine in between, then this is information that their potential buyers should be made aware of, so that they can weigh that information as part of their decision making process. There are MANY buyers that would dislike this lack of quarantine and decide against doing business based solely on this information. I am one of them, and I know many others that feel the same. If another seller were out there that disregarded quarantine in this manner, I would hope that those that knew/witnessed this information would have the courtesy to post it for myself and other potential buyers to find and educate ourselves before doing business with that person. That is why this is not a Bad Guy thread, but an INFORMATION thread. The purpose is to educate, inform, and hopefully prevent negative outcomes.

Yes, Travis disclosed that they were not quarantined, and stated that he would cover any and all damages that should come as the result of an infection from his snakes. However, here is an example of a situation that I was trying to help Travis and his buyers avoid:

Say someone purchases these snakes, puts them in their quarantine which is in a spare bedroom completely separate from their collecton that is in another room, and the quarantine room has no other snakes currently in it. Then within days/weeks an airborne virus such as IBD or a paramyxovirus spreads and infects the person's entire collection, because the house shares one ventilation system like almost all private homes do and air is exchanged between all the rooms. This infection results in mounting veterinary bills for treatments and testing, multiple animal deaths as more continue to get sick, and ultimately the entire collection needs to be euthanized and the buyer has lost everything -- whether it be a small collection of a couple albinos and some spiders, or a larger one with crystals, mystic potions, super stripes, etc.

Is Travis going to reimburse his buyer for all of these expenses and losses? Is Travis ready to assume responsibility for such a devastating situation that stemmed from his animals? If the answer is no, then he needs to rethink his practices and properly quarantine new acquisitions, in order to allow time in an isolated environment for potential diseases like this to rear their ugly heads if present, and prevent them from being spread further into the community.

The fact that Travis has an apparent disregard for even basic quarantine practices when taking in new animals, and risks the safety/health of his own collection as well as the safety/health of his buyers' animals, really makes you wonder what other things he disregards or is willing to risk. This was my main point. These choices say something about him as whole, the mentality he has regarding this hobby and the affect he can have on others. Who knows what diseases/parasites his collection could potentially have been exposed to by being housed with and immediately bred to such unquarantined new animals; whether it was the re-sold snakes in these most recent ads, or prior snakes that he may have not quarantined either, or future snakes which he may not quarantine even after all this has been discussed. All of which are enough reason alone to make a reasonable person question whether to purchase from him, which is why the information needs to be available -- so that those that value such criteria in their decision making have the ability to find it and use it.

In regard to starting a new thread, I don't believe that is permitted, as it would create two threads about the same topic. Your information is already on this thread, so when someone does a search on the BOI for your name or business, this thread will always come up in the results, even if another is created.

[Python Dreams]

Something really rubs me the wrong way with this thread...:rolleyes_

Your information is already on this thread, so when someone does a search on the BOI for your name or business, this thread will always come up in the results, even if another is created.
How many more people need to suffer devastating losses before people in this hobby will get it through their heads that quarantine is NOT something to be taken lightly or skipped altogether? How can anyone be so cavalier with the health and safety of OTHER people's collections and livelihoods?


Jen,
Pretty harsh stuff for an info thread...

Calling out a person/business on working a deal without proper quarantine seems pretty weird, especially since they are stating their quarantine practices in the ad. I am guessing their potential customers can read and can make up their own mind?

This thread just comes off as if your someone that is really ignorant to the reptile industry and your role in it (unless you are the self appointed quarantine Police). I guess you should go to a show and sit and watch a high percentage of the vendors regularly trade in and out at the show. Have another vendor watch their booth for a second while they go to the bathroom, etc (never have seen vendors change clothes for each booth) Some of the top people in the industry putting traded snakes right into their displays. Surprises me, yet happens with extreme regularity. You could probably start 20 threads in one morning at Anaheim. If your really about mothering the reptile world, you could start a thread for anyone that attends a reptile show since their are crazy airbourne viruses that could have people "suffer devastating losses"? How far does the mothering go? Threads for the vendors that dont quarantine every animal after a show, etc... You could really mother and save the whole industry if you did that!:shrug01:

You also have no problem mothering the quarantine world yet you start the rebuilding of your collection with Outback stock? Are you aware of the threads here about Outback? Are you aware that they import? Especially with someone that has suffered such extreme losses, you feel that an importer with questionable practices (as posted here on the BOI) is the best route to go in starting a collection? Unless it was a Banana male (or something so rare as to have no other options), I wouldnt want to knowingly bring Outback stock into my collection. And if it was a Banana male, I would quarantine in a different county at my parents. Yet with your knowledge of these airbourne viruses that is where you wanted to start? Seems just plain strange that you could do that while calling out another!:ack2: Maybe you should post an info thread on yourself so people know that your starting up with an importers stock and all of the potential "devastating losses" that could go with that.

[mikeyt]

I agree with you Tom. 100%. Well said.

[Lair of Dragons]

Yes, Travis disclosed that they were not quarantined, and stated that he would cover any and all damages that should come as the result of an infection from his snakes. However, here is an example of a situation that I was trying to help Travis and his buyers avoid:

Jen,
I never asked for your help.....

Is Travis going to reimburse his buyer for all of these expenses and losses? Is Travis ready to assume responsibility for such a devastating situation that stemmed from his animals? If the answer is no, then he needs to rethink his practices and properly quarantine new acquisitions, in order to allow time in an isolated environment for potential diseases like this to rear their ugly heads if present, and prevent them from being spread further into the community.

I make 125k a year from my regular job, send you a copy of my tax returns if you would like...so I can afford to back up what I said I would do, not that its any of your business.

Reselling or "flipping" animals is a pretty common practice and is harmless if done properly. But if someone is reselling newly acquired animals and not practicing any kind of quarantine in between, then this is information that their potential buyers should be made aware of, so that they can weigh that information as part of their decision making process.

I did make the buyer aware so they can weigh that info into their buying decision....didn't I. As far as "flipping"...I stated I bought these others in a package deal to get the ones I wanted...only way to get them.

So in your..."Crusade for Ethics"....why don't you check your own backyard before you come playing in mine.

JEN..BTW how's the Ablino you just bought....was it quarantined to your high standards before you bought it.....?

Even if you plan on quarantining it, do you know if it was before you brought it into your collection because you have to remember....

Then within days/weeks an airborne virus such as IBD or a paramyxovirus spreads and infects the person's entire collection, because the house shares one ventilation system like almost all private homes do and air is exchanged between all the rooms.

It's this simple...I sat back let you say about me what you wanted, responded to your remarks about my practices but you act like you still have something to prove...so please prove it, move on to your next crusade....or do you just like seeing how high you can get your POST COUNTER can go.

Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

[ozz465]

I am 100% in agreement with the last 2 major post here , seems the "police" act went overboard here.

[mikeyt]

I think the OP's add stated all the needed information for myself (if I was interested), to make a responsible descision ON MY OWN whether or not to purchase and or quarantine any of said animals if I had decided to purchase.

Now, I do understand the importance of quarantine procedures, as well as the post by Jen as an informational thread. However, I do agree that this thread has gone a little overboard.

The BOI is intended as an informative tool for those of us who choose to use it to further our reptile education, and to better ourselves and reptile community. Now the OP has admitted to maybe making mistakes in the past, but here you have a guy being about as honest as I think he could have gotten in his ad, and look at the position he is in. I have seen people in alot worse shape on here not taking as much as a beating as this guy is. I mean, what does it take to make people happy?

As far as Jen buying an animal from Outback, I sure hope she practices what she preaches. We all know Outback is a major player in the import business, and while they do produce many of their own animals, they also buy, trade and re-sell all day long. They currently have ads running, WANTED, all your animals, collections, big and small. Do you think they quarantine all those animals prior to sale? Dont think so. I have seen things traded to them at shows an put right on the table.

So, in conclusion, it would be nice if this WAS an informational thread only, but let up on the guy already. Travis, if I was intersted, I would buy without hesitation, use MY OWN judgement, follow my own quarantine procedures and live happily ever after. Good luck with your sales

Mikey

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Josh had the albinos for months prior to my female being shipped here, and yes, she is in quarantine in an entirely different location from my collection. As I have said previously for those that seem to want to use this purchase against me, my decision to purchase from Outback was based solely on my previous dealings with Josh years ago that went very well with healthy animals, great customer service, etc. I have seen threads here on the BOI about them and thus far other than Ian (not Josh) avoiding contact with someone, I haven't found anything negative regarding sick animals or lack of quarantine. Also as I have already stated NUMEROUS times, my feelings on this have nothing to do with reselling or brokering animals or even imports -- it's about the proper quarantine of said animals and doing things the right way.

Damn right I'm practicing what I preach. Travis, I could care less how much money you make. Only someone that thinks they have something to prove throws out their 6-digit income as some kind of defense when asked a question about what they are willing to take responsibility for (and my question was not about the money or cost, but you taking true responsibility for it).

Your information is already on this thread, so when someone does a search on the BOI for your name or business, this thread will always come up in the results, even if another is created.

Tom, I said this in response to Travis' request for a new thread to be started, to explain why it would do no good to create a new thread as the information is already here in this one. This also goes to the purpose of this info thread, as stated MULTIPLE times now. Once these animals are sold and gone, the ads will be deleted. Future buyers should still be aware that Travis does not always practice quarantining new acquisitions, and thus they will find this thread and can make up their own minds on how they wish to proceed, and ask questions of Travis that they would like answered prior to doing so. This topic could not have been brought up anywhere else on Fauna without leaving out the business name or people involved, which defeats the purpose of discussing it. Hence why it is an INFORMATION thread on the BOI.

How many more people need to suffer devastating losses before people in this hobby will get it through their heads that quarantine is NOT something to be taken lightly or skipped altogether? How can anyone be so cavalier with the health and safety of OTHER people's collections and livelihoods?

How is this harsh? I was voicing a concern and asking a very valid, general question.

[KelliH]

Read the below thread, Jen, and then come back here and say there are no threads here involving then with sick animals that they don't quarantine. I'm downright shocked that after all that happened with you that you would choose to support a wholesaler and flesh peddler rather than a good breeder.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157063&highlight=outback+reptiles
while you're at it read this one too
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139157&highlight=outback+reptiles

As far as this thread goes, I would have no problem dealing with him at all. His honesty in the ad was rather refreshing.

[Lair of Dragons]

Jen,
I have had several breeders email me and PM me about this post...all are saying the same thing....and after revieming some of your other post I would have to agree with them...

It seems like you are one of those people who are out to get anyone who deals in reptiles.
As far as people finding this post with a bio search on my name "I could care less"..but if I was you I would be concerned about what they may think of you when your name appears in it. How many people have to get on here and tell you to stop, your not proving anything except what type of person you are...your only hurting yourself and your to blind to see it.

I don't mind BIO's, most of the time they can relay good information that some people need but you seem to have forgoten that. Your thread here started off with some type of purpose and you kept directing it right back at me, you just don't know when to quit, but hey I don't mind because if anything you have helped me more than hurt...sorry you didn't get the results you were looking for.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

[TripleMoonsExotic]

It seems like you are one of those people who are out to get anyone who deals in reptiles.

I don't perceive that at all. If she were, she a) wouldn't have any reptiles and b) wouldn't be purchasing reptiles from anyone.

I think quarantine and the spread of disease is a sensitive spot for Jen. I'm sure it would be for any of us if we had gone through what she had. Through her eyes, it's probably horrifying to see someone introducing a new male within days of receipt to a collection and openly admitting no quarantine was practiced on a number of animals.

Would I ever post a thread like this? No. But I appreciate that it's here on the BOI because I would have had no idea about your quarantine practices if it hadn't.

[SPJ]

I think quarantine and the spread of disease is a sensitive spot for Jen.
She really should have thought twice about buying from Ian (Josh is just the salesman) since his stock is exposed to all kinds of pathogens (just look at that kinked, ulcerated caramel BP they have listed).
IMO, if you were really that concerned with QT and disease, you would never come within 5 miles of Ian's animals.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

She really should have thought twice about buying from Ian (Josh is just the salesman) since his stock is exposed to all kinds of pathogens (just look at that kinked, ulcerated caramel BP they have listed).
IMO, if you were really that concerned with QT and disease, you would never come within 5 miles of Ian's animals.

I don't disagree with that. That Caramel he posted was horrifying. :ack2:

[Python Dreams]

Jen,
As far as Outback goes... They are importers... They dont practice good quarantine practices from what has been posted on other threads. Did I say they are importers? As far as I am concerned, that would be one of the last places I would have expected you to look for stock. For an Albino? You picked an importers business, to start rebuilding your collection, that has a worse reputation for what you are crusading against here. Amazing!!!!!!:yesnod:Now how ridiculous would a thread be warning people about your stock, because we dont want anybody to forget that you started with stock that had likely been near fresh, unquarantined imports.

Its one thing to make a BOI thread and mention someones quarantine practices (which I still feel is ridiculous since it is in his ad), but to place the weight of every deadly reptile virus in a thread about a particular person is straight up rude. Putting a business name that has no reputation of selling sick animals right out in the open like they are spreading disease, while you have the knowledge that it happens weekly with every level of breeders (right up to the top) at reptile shows is crazy to me. This went from an info thread about Lair of Dragons to an info thread about diseases and the wiping out of someones collection, etc... In an info thread about a breeder who has done none of that it is straight up rude.

And for picking up stock from an importer that might not practice quarantine, just because of your past business dealings (wasnt your reptile past a nightmare?), makes you so amazingly hypocritical that I cannot even believe it. Which is what eventually got me to post since you wouldnt stop posting deisease info in a business info thread.

IMHO, you should be more particular about where you get your stock than anyone. And from this ridiculous thread you started, I learned that I would rather pick up snakes from LOD than from someone that gets there stock from an importer, meaning you. Something to think about before you go crusading to save the reptile world, when your own backyard is questionable.:NoNo:

[Lair of Dragons]

Steph,
If you would have read the whole post and not just skipped through it you would have seen clearly on Page 2....5th post my quarantine practices. But because I ran an add making buyers aware about these particular animals everyone makes it sound like I drove to the shore, pulled them off a boat from Afica and ran home and stuck them in my collection.
Or that I went to a show and bought them from an importer and did the same, or from a huge breeder with a bad rep....none of the above applies.

Do you go to shows....do you work shows....do you buy from shows..do you sell snakes...do you buy from breeders with good reps and bad reps.....of course you do, we all do....

If I buy from you and you are trusted in your collection that there is nothing wrong with your snakes and you stand behind them is there any reason why my purchase should have to go through a strict quarantine or even a moderate quarantine. If so why? Because I am suppose to....according to who.
Every snake you buy from someone you have to ask yourself the question...should I or shouldn't I quarantine. Just because you have done business with someone in the past and had good luck with their reptiles in your collection should you treat your next purchase form them any different. Its a judgement call...
Now every snake that is bought and sold you really don't know the story behind it and how the seller got it. You trust in their words as a buyer and you decide from there. Then once you purchase you decide what to do with your new snake or snakes.

Jen acts like I am the first person in the whole industry that didn't quarantine a purchase. Its done every day all over the world. Yes some pay the price for their decissions when it comes to quarantine but it is their decission to make.
I wanted the potential buyer to know what he is getting with this purchase or purchases because I didn't want them to assume anything different.....looking back at all this now I would have been better to run my ad not stating anything about the quarantine of the snakes except the price, weight and morph then I wouldn't be where I am now. I have bought and sold a lot of Dragons and Snakes over the last 5 years and a lot of people know of me and my practices and I just wanted to make a potential new customer aware of these particual snakes and that my quarantine practice decission was different on these than normal....
Travis
Lair of Dragons

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If you would have read the whole post and not just skipped through it you would have seen clearly on Page 2....5th post my quarantine practices. But because I ran an add making buyers aware about these particular animals everyone makes it sound like I drove to the shore, pulled them off a boat from Afica and ran home and stuck them in my collection. Or that I went to a show and bought them from an importer and did the same, or from a huge breeder with a bad rep....none of the above applies.

Getting snarky with me isn't help your cause here. For your information, I did read the whole thread. That doesn't change the fact that you put a male into your collection for breeding within days of receipt and are selling parts of this group purchased without any quarantine measures in place. Who did the animals come from that you trust so much (or did I miss that somewhere here)?

If I buy from you and you are trusted in your collection that there is nothing wrong with your snakes and you stand behind them is there any reason why my purchase should have to go through a strict quarantine or even a moderate quarantine. If so why? Because I am suppose to....according to who.

Actually, I believe every animal brought into a collection should be quarantined no matter who it comes from and it clearly states that on my website (http://triplemoonsexotic.com/articles/miscellaneous-articles/quarantine-procedures/). Not only have I watched Jen's collection downfall, I have a friend who lost her entire Cornsnake collection to crypto because she trusted a fellow breeder to take her adults on breeding loan while she was away.

[Lair of Dragons]

Steph,
I am not getting snarky with you as you put it....I am not fighting for any cause..just confussed I thought this was a BIO and not a bad guy thread......what I do with the snakes I purchase is up to me....how I advertise them is up to me...and who I buy from is none of your business so you didn't miss anything. Not trying to start a war with you I am just over this thread and have better things to do with my time then mess with this.

As I stated before I am sorry for problems Jen had with her collection...not only sucks for her but the collection as well. But if you want to talk about QUARANTINE then lets do it...If you want to talk about me then this is in the wrong area. If I was new to Fauna and I ran across this BIO looking for info...and reviewed all these pages I would probably give up on ever wanting a snake or for that fact even advertising or asking a question on this site if I had snakes and wasnt sure what to do.
So either arrest, me charge me or let me go..........
Travis
Lair of Dragons

[TripleMoonsExotic]

...what I do with the snakes I purchase is up to me....how I advertise them is up to me...and who I buy from is none of your business so you didn't miss anything.

Do you see why that doesn't work here? You're insisting that whomever these snakes were purchased from by you is guaranteed to be disease free and you didn't feel the need to quarantine...Yet you won't disclose who this person is? We are supposed to trust your word as opposed to verifying ourselves their origin? :shrug01: Not trying to start an argument in the least, just pointing out the flaws.

Also you did disclose who your purchased them from in your ad (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226326). Victor Owens (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226012). So that answers that question.

But if you want to talk about QUARANTINE then lets do it...If you want to talk about me then this is in the wrong area.

You are incorrect. This is a BOI Info thread about you, so yes, you are a subject in the thread.

Honestly, if you're done with the thread and have said your peace, just stop responding. If you're not worried about it, just let it go at this point. :shrug01: I'm sure you'll have little trouble reselling that group regardless, your prices are more then fair (I had been eying up the Albino pair myself).

[Dennis Hultman]

If you want to talk about me then this is in the wrong area.
Actually, this is the only place to discuss you. Regardless if you like it or not you were using your wife's handle for business presently and in the past so you have only yourself to blame for any connection in the title.

When someone starts a BOI thread it's about the individuals involved and not just one particular instance. So, If down the road a buyer would like to post something positive about a transaction with you, they are more than welcome to use this thread. Anything negative as well. So while we or some of us can disagree that the reasons why any particular thread was started, future responses to this thread aren't off topic as long as they deal with you.

With that, I'm going to briefly touch on the other subject in this thread about you that Nick brought up.




TravisPolasian,
As I stated a few post back I have made mistakes along the way but the info you are bringing up is close to 4 years old. I took some bad advice back then and was just starting out in the dragon business. I learned from it in more than one way. People make mistakes its how we learn. If you want to judge me from what I did four years ago then that is your choice and anyone who reads this post.
I bet it you dug up the past on almost everyone in here as you spent so much time on me you would find I am not the only one.
I will not deny any of the info posted above.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

While I commend you on your honesty here and I really do. You could have just denied it but you were straightforward and I think that shows some good character now. The fact remands that Nick showed some discretion because of the time between moderators discovering your shill accounts and your posts under multiple user names giving your wife and your company false positive reviews. So again your responsible for dragging your wife into this and she is responsible because she knew those glowing recommendations under her name were lies that you guys were posting.

Again, I might just let that go at this point and time but you continued with this
This is the exact reason I faded away from this site for so long....the BS witch hunts...thanks Craig I couldn't have put it any better.

JUST SO EVERYONE KNOWS...I have have been communicating with Rich(webslave) about setting up a account with my name and keeping my business name the same. You can go to his page and read my post for the reasons if you so desire. Not doing it to try to cover anything up, as I stated to him in responses to my questions.

If you want to know why I post under Jodi name...its all there. Husbands and wifes run businesses together do they all need separate account to preform the same business. She has not been involved in this business for a long, long time.
I have sold 100's of dragons over the past few years....dig up dirt on those transactions if you want, chances are you won't find much if anything at all. I have had dealing were I went way out of my guarantee guidelines to make customers happy. I started out on the wrong foot and changed my business model and the way I treat my customers along the way. LIKE I SAID BEFORE..."If you are not getting better you are getting worse"
Now I will try to get the new account set up tonight if not tomorrow...just walked through the door after a look week at work.
Travis Delaney
Lair of Dragons

You then to proceed to tell the members of this board that you left this site a few years ago because of the witch hunts here? A few years ago you were running around here posting under different names posting these recommendations for yourself

I justt wanted to let every one know I purchase 2 bearded dragons form lair of dragons. Everything was great. Jodi answered all my emails super fast and even called me to explain some questions I had. The babies arrived in excellent condition and she gave me a terrific discount on the two. Since i am new to dragons she has kept in contact with me daily to make sure everything is okay, and has even told me I can call anytime day or night if I have questions or concerns. I was referred to her by a friend who also purchase from them and she just loves her new dragon. Thank you Jodi and Lair Of Dragons for making this experience very easy and thank you for the pretty dragons.

Chyenne

I don't usually post on any kind of forum but since this is for feedback I thought I would. I also have to agree with Ms. Chyenne. I gotten a rescued python from Jodi at Lair Of Dragons, not to long ago. She invited me to her house to pick it up and I have to say she takes pride in the care of her reptiles. She goes the extra mile to make sure all rescues are in perfect condition before they leave her. She had them in beautiful, clean setups and all her reptiles were very healthy. I have to give her credit for quitting her Job to take care of these full-time. Keep up the good work.

Stevie Mast

Yes, I have heard of them...I have purchased two dragons from them within the last year. I was able to drive to their house and pick out the ones I wanted both times. You can tell they take great care of their dragons and every tank was very clean...I have future plans to buy from them because they always respond to my emails and phone calls a.s.a.p. I know they ship all over the US and they are trying to do everything right and not become just another breeder.
Jay

Those witch hunts happen because of people like you and what you "were" doing. You were the problem here not those who were exposing people like you. Wouldn't you agree, Chyenne? So don't sit there and knock this site for hounding people like you that were deceiving this community. If it wasn't for the behavior from people like you that were dishonest on this board there would be no need for the "witch hunts" you are describing.

And another thing, You stated you changed your business model. Well that's great but you are over forty years old. You might be somewhat understanding of a young person starting out doing junk like this but you were in your mid to late thirties and thought nothing of it. I'm glad you changed your business model from going around pretending to be a woman and others giving yourself a pat on the back but don't go blaming this board for unwarranted with hunts when you were part of the environment that created the need.

That's all I have to say about that. Good luck to you.

[deborahbroadus]

:bow01: The bolded section is stated so eloquently.

Actually, this is the only place to discuss you. Regardless if you like it or not you were using your wife's handle for business presently and in the past so you have only yourself to blame for any connection in the title.

When someone starts a BOI thread it's about the individuals involved and not just one particular instance. So, If down the road a buyer would like to post something positive about a transaction with you, they are more than welcome to use this thread. Anything negative as well. So while we or some of us can disagree that the reasons why any particular thread was started, future responses to this thread aren't off topic as long as they deal with you.

With that, I'm going to briefly touch on the other subject in this thread about you that Nick brought up.




Travis

While I commend you on your honesty here and I really do. You could have just denied it but you were straightforward and I think that shows some good character now. The fact remands that Nick showed some discretion because of the time between moderators discovering your shill accounts and your posts under multiple user names giving your wife and your company false positive reviews. So again your responsible for dragging your wife into this and she is responsible because she knew those glowing recommendations under her name were lies that you guys were posting.

Again, I might just let that go at this point and time but you continued with this


You then to proceed to tell the members of this board that you left this site a few years ago because of the witch hunts here? A few years ago you were running around here posting under different names posting these recommendations for yourself







Those witch hunts happen because of people like you and what you "were" doing. You were the problem here not those who were exposing people like you. Wouldn't you agree, Chyenne? So don't sit there and knock this site for hounding people like you that were deceiving this community. If it wasn't for the behavior from people like you that were dishonest on this board there would be no need for the "witch hunts" you are describing.

And another thing, You stated you changed your business model. Well that's great but you are over forty years old. You might be somewhat understanding of a young person starting out doing junk like this but you were in your mid to late thirties and thought nothing of it. I'm glad you changed your business model from going around pretending to be a woman and others giving yourself a pat on the back but don't go blaming this board for unwarranted with hunts when you were part of the environment that created the need.

That's all I have to say about that. Good luck to you.

[David Reid]

I agree with Tom. This thread is like a person who went on a diet and lost 40 lbs. telling every fat person why they should not be eating that hamburger. Give it a rest, and I know who is on my do not buy from list based on who THEY bought from.

Dave

[gsrept]

I honestly do not see the issue. How many people here have a seperate building at there house to put animals into quarintine? this is the only true way to due it and i would be willing to bet with all the people on this site it would be maybe 1%. instead of using your energy to persecute someone that may or may not be in the wrong. focus it towards the people who flip animals or buy stolen animals. what about all the individuals who have illegally kept species of reptiles. IMO this thread has been drawn out a lot longer than it needed to be. if you are all really worried about quarintining why in the world would you ever buy from outback or from any of the shows out there they are a breeding ground for viruses and parasites. But we all still go to them and buy from them so we are all guilty of this for god sake a moderator of this site did the same thing put a newly bought snake in with a female where is the post on him.

[Cp3_Pythons]

In the end its HIS choice their HIS animals. Okay I understand that you want to warn people of the dangers of not quarantining animals Via what happened to your collection...
In the end yes some people would like to know things like this But its clear that Travis is being honest about what he has for sale and that alone speaks LOUDLY. Yes everyone can make there own desicion on new additions to there collection and Craig is correct a MOD recently also admitted to the same thing your complaining about Travis.... So why don't the Op start a Info/Bad Guy thread on the Mod as well If I rember correctly it was HHMoore POST AWAY.... These whole thread has gone farther than I personally belive it should have gone and Outbacks quarantine practice's more than likely AINT THE BEST I mean they Buy entire clutchs Import and re-sell Imports as soon as they come in... And I've PERSONALLY witnessed them Pick things up at Show's and Place it on the table for sale right then...
Your Albino you just picked up was probally at one of the shows right next to Someones collection they bought and on the other side the Bush Babies they have...
Now if you practiced what you preach so much today you wouldn't have lost your collection Now would you have? In all honesty I belive that if that wouldn't have happened you wouldn't have started this thread On Travis