Need Opinions, where responsibility of sell ends?

[CheriS]

This is not a good guy/bad guy post, Rich has given permission to post this in the community interest.

Where do you think the responsibility of the seller ends after a sale if there is a potential problem the seller becomes aware of, after the sale and advises the buyer?

There is a reason for asking this and maybe this will better explain it.

I moderate on a medical forum, this has come up several times now. A few breeders have found out they have paramyxo in their snake colony and adenovirus in their bearded dragon colony. Each time they face the same dilemma.....

Ethically, they know they should contact all individuals that bought animals from them that COULD have been infected, to avoid past buyers having to go through what they are now ( dying clutches and losing their whole collection) and stop the spread of it if those animals do have it. They are in no position to reimburse the buyers for all the sales, and they certainly are not going to be reimbursed themselves for the animals they bought that infected theirs. (if it can be determined).

One breeder (bearded dragon/adenovirus) starting calling buyers telling them there MIGHT be a problem, the animals could be tested and avoid contact with others until they were. One response was the buyer(s) wanted to be reimbursed for the animals. Some had died months ago, many months after the sale. Some where not thriving, but no diagnoses of illness.

The breeder who sold the animals had no way of knowing there was a problem at the time of sale, adenovirus is hard to diagnose on a live animal and usually is only found after a necropsy. Many infected animals will seem fine and only when something taxes their system will the virus take hold.... in this case it was laying a few clutches and the hatchling showing classic signs and some dying that led the owner to discover he had this virus in his colony. Unsure when or where it entered.

The snake breeder was similar, the snake showing signs months after it was acquired, and many sales from the same housing area before it was diagnosed. It most likely came to him with the virus, but there is no way to know for sure or if it contacted it from another snake added recently that is not showing signs.

The best route for other animals is that all be informed, but sellers are hesitant to do that when it might be demanded they refund sales prices that were done months earlier or have their reputation ruined in this industry. There also is the possibility that animals sold may have had poor care that led to health problems/death, not related to the sellers recently found virus.

This can involve hundreds of sales in a short time

Where do you think the responsibility of the seller ends after a sale?

[KNOBTAIL]

and I guess everything depends on your terms. In our policies, we only guarantee the outward appearance of the animal. We use reasonable approaches and we follow up after the animals in question have been received, beyond that we assume no further responsibility. That is not to say, that we would not help if a problem occurred, but we must revert to our policy for conducting business.

Several years ago we sold a beautiful female Nephrurus for $ 1,200. alot of money for a lady. 2 months later we received a fax from a vet indicating that an autopsy was preformed and the gecko (which died the day before) had an enlarged heart. As far as the vet was concerned it was a contributing factor in her death.For the buyer, she wanted her $ 1,200. back! Our policy was very clear, after receipt of the gecko, its hers ! We were not happy about the situation so we offered to give her back $ 600.
We were not obligated to. Our position was very simple. From all outward appearances the animal was healthy, eating and looked great. The fact that she dropped dead 60 days later, I am sorry, but its your problem, no longer ours. But we felt it was the right thing to do , we compromised, using some Solomons wisdom, and the customer was satisfied. These things happen, and from experience, I think they have to be addressed on a one to one basis. JERRY TRESSER

[Tom Burns]

I agree with Jerry. If the seller sends out a healthy animal and honors the terms of whatever warranty was provided (live arrival, 10 days, 30 days, etc.) then the sellers responsibility has been met. It's unfortunate that these types of underlying problems are sometimes associated with the animals we love, but they are and it's the risk we all must accept. These aren't porcelain figurines, they're living creatures. Is it the sellers responsibility to call every past customer and warn them about a potential problem that they recently discovered? Tough call. I would say no, it's not necessarily a responsibility, but it would definitely be the morally correct thing to do. Again, tough call. It's a lose/lose situation no matter how you look at it.

Tom Burns
Upper End Exotics (http://www.treeboas.com)

[Pennebaker]

I agree.
There is no way of knowing certain genetic problems, defects, or viruses if they are not apparent. I believe if the sale is done in good faith, then no money should be refunded. The terms of sale should be available too and covered--if you have a month guarantee and the problem arises during that time, then the refund is warranted. But months later, no.
"There is always a risk"--very true. Sellers are not clairvoyent.
Unfortunate things can happen.
Again, as long as the animal was sold in good faith--ie seller does not know that there is a problem.
It is certainly a touchy issue to go back and inform previous customers. Very tough. Proper quarantine procedures should limit the damage in most cases though. Another example for the need for strict quarantine--captive bred or WC.
Dana

[Adam Block]

I think the biggest factor is the breeder you're dealing with. In many cases the breeder is not going to step up to the plate and correct a situation even if they are in the wrong. In these situations it comes down to pressure from customers and the public to push them in the right direction.

Anybody on the BOI will jump on a small time breeders back and get them to do the right thing. However there has never been a situation on the BOI were a "big name" breeder has had to be held accountable for anything.

My only point is that terms have nothing to do with a deal, nothing at all! What does have something to do with a deal is the breeders greed, need for money, reputation and worry for a customers happiness.

I had a ball python die last year, if I'd bought that animal from a breeder motivated by how happy their customers are like Brian Sharp it would have been replaced in a flash! Brian is an outstanding breeder and will never have a post in the BOI because of his willingness to make things right.

I however didn't and it wasn't so I'm just out the money. What makes a breeder stand out is how they deal with tough situations!

PS No point to this post at all, just a chance for me to see myself type about something I now feel strongly about.

[KNOBTAIL]

when you say "terms have nothing to do with the deal" I dont know what kind of a business you run, but in mine, our TERMS, are the foundation of our business. I dont think I have to point out the 100s of 1000s of dollars that are spent by firms to insure that their terms are spelled out very carefully on contracts .Look at car dealers, doctors, etc. they have terms, and if a problem occurs, that is where they will see what arrangements were made. No one is suggesting that you can not alter your terms to suit a particular situation, but any common sense business man is going to protect themselves.

Let me point something out to you as well as other readers of this post. If you are a corporation, your liability will be limited. I am referring to you personally. However if you act as an individual selling herps, the liability will be on your shoulders. Are you prepared to get sued, if someone comes back 2 months from now and claims that their animals (that they purchased from you) were diseased and spread to your own stock. !!!!!!!!!!!!!! They want their money back, they want vet bills, and they are taking you to court. I think you would have a real problem on your hands. Are you prepared for that "tough situation" I dont think so.

Even under the best of circumstances whether corp or not, you have to protect your own interests. The terms of your business is a wonderful asset. It provides you with a method of conducting business when you are selling, or accepting returns, or how the monies are to be paid.

I dont know if its just a lack of immaturity in running a business, or your taking a moral position, but I suggest that you reconsider your thoughts because your avenues could be financially fatal.
JERRY TRESSER

[Seamus Haley]

Adam is just angry because he started a BOI thread with no facts, with a changing story and with the intention of pressuring a big name, well known, quality breeder into violating their own terms of service in his favor because of his negative thread.

It backfired.

So he's bitter.

Still.

Fact of the matter is... Most big name breeders ARE big name breeders because of a long standing history of quality animals and quality service, it's understandable that there will be fewer threads surrounding them because they have worked hard to make sure there's never anything bad to say to begin with.

With regards to the original post and the original question... There are a few different kinds of responsibility... There's a legal responsibility and there's a moral responsibility... The first is pretty clear cut and will change depending on the terms agreed to at the time of sale. The second is an individual tendency based off the ethics of any given seller. Some will feel obligated to at least inform their customers of the potential of a problem, others will choose to hide the situation. I personally see one as being morally right and the other as morally wrong, but it's an individual choice. Continuing to knowingly sell animals which may have been exposed to something communicable and deadly is just criminal.

[WebSlave]

Probably the biggest fear (and rightly so) that any breeder will immediately get when they discover something like this is that it will spell the end of their business. So it will take one heck of a lot of guts to admit something like this and take whatever steps are necessary to rectify it.

One guy who did just this that comes to mind is Pete Kahl. He discovered some of his animals had IBD and just took the bull by the horns and made it right. I don't really know all of the details, but from what I understand he just told everyone what he knew, took a lot of expensive animals and had them tested (which had to be euthanized in the process), and basically did everything necessary to control a very bad situation. And his reputation, in my estimation, took a jump to an even higher plane because of what he did.

I have talked to a vet friend of mine (who would not mention any names) who said he personally visited some moderately big name breeders' collections and diagnosed them as being heavily infested with crypto. He then saw them later on at shows dumping those very same animals onto the public at large, but could not say a thing about it. But he did warn me to be leery of people dumping entire collections.

This kind of crap happens all of the time, unfortunately, which is exactly why my collection has been pretty much closed and isolated for years. I rarely buy animals from anyone any longer, and even then, those animals may be in quarantine for a solid year, or even more.

Sometimes you just have to take the tough choices to at least prove to yourself that you are worth the raw materials it takes to make up your body. Unfortunately, I believe few will do that, so it will continue to be a buyer beware sort of situation, at best.

As for the limits to liability, I tend to agree that once that stated warranty period has elapsed, that is the end of it. Anything else additional would be considered optional, ASSUMING the seller did not know, and could not have known, at the time of the sale that such a problem existed. However, if someone continued to sell probably infected animals knowingly, I can't think of any penalty that I would consider as being too harsh for them.

[CheriS]

But he did warn me to be leery of people dumping entire collections. This can't be said enough, and its not just small time breeders either, we've seen large well known and respected in the past breeders disposing of animals that most likely are infected. And like Rich's vet friend, we can not say anything but warn people of the above quote.

They elect not to warn others and try to salvage what they can for themselves dollar wise with no consideration for the buyer, the future infected offspring that spread the problem further or others they come into contact with... to me, that is the worst and most despicable actions a person can do. But as another poster said, people are afraid to stand up to a large breeder and they usually don't know they are not alone in having this problem, so they remain silent, and most people never know it is an ongoing problem.

What we are dealing with that started this thread are people that want to tell others, but can not bear the financial burden of reimbursement back for in some cases over a year, so what do they do? IMO, they are not financially responsible for that, but they are morally and ethically responsible to warm others that purchased from them. Had the seller to them done that, there would not be at minimum, 200 more animals out their potentially infected now.

Example, this is a true situation: "S" bought 2 animals from a popular breeder, both seem fine and she breeds them, she never has them in contact with other animals, several clutches later she sees problems in the clutches, has a necropsy done and finds out they have adenovirus. She then has prior hatchling checked and they are positive also, so the parents are checked and positive. She contacts all she has names of for the over 200 that have sold, but that is less than 100 people, since she sold them at shows. There are over 100 out there still infected and infecting others, including another breeder that bought one and has now lost over 100 hatchling also, plus several adults.

At the same time this is going on, another breeder attending the same show she was selling at returns home from the show and 10 days later he has animals that he took to the show sick and dying. Within a month he has lost or had put down 400 animals, his entire colony is wiped out!

And all because the original breeder tried to salvage his money and dump the animals that he was aware could have been infected. But she is afraid to say anything, she is not aware that there are 2 dozen others that bought at the same time and are dealing with the same problem from this breeder, they all are in the same situation as she and not aware of each other.

From this chain alone, over 800 animals are infected, five breeders effected and hundreds of individuals. Breeder that do disclose problems and try to warn others, should be commended and not held responsible for actions that were not in their control or knowledge. Its the only way to help control the cycle of infection. It does take a lot of guts, but it's the right thing to do and I would respect them more for it also.

Other breeders like Rich are smart, being cautious and securing their colony and taking the right steps when another is introduced. Not only at home, but also at shows. I have seen Rich's set up at shows, its pretty safe and secure, more breeders and vendors should take a lesson from it.

Sadly there are those that do not follow that, and that puts many at risk. I have not had to deal with anything like this personally, but I also realize how easy it could happen to anyone and if it does they need to know what their legal and moral obligations are and how others in the community feel.

They need to disclose it, contact all that bought from them, they are not responsible for repaying purchases and others to ask I do not think is reasonable. Be thankful you were warned and can take steps and not be in the same situation as the breeder because he was honest and upright.

[WebSlave]

Cheri brought up shows, and I think people need to rethink their policies in this environment. I see vendors let ANYONE handle their animals at the drop of a hat. Then when they are done, put it back in the container, usually with several others, and then do the same thing when another prospective customer asks to hold one.

Quite frankly, there is no way in hell I would buy an animal from that person. I do not want to buy anything that may have been handled by HUNDREDS of people at a show, and no telling how many other animals those people had handled before hand. If even ONE person handled ONE infected snake, everything touched afterwards could possibly be infected as well.

I DO NOT allow anyone to handle my animals. I will take them out and handle them for them, but DON'T TOUCH them until they are yours. I am polite, but firm, about this, and I explain why to everyone. Kids and lamebrains don't understand, but people with an ounce of sense do see the sense in this policy.

And don't fall into the false sense of security that the little bottle of hand disinfectant is going to preserve the safety of your animals. There are some pathogens that can happily live in pure concentrated bleach, so if that disinfectant you are using doesn't take your skin off down to the bone, it is not going to bother in the least some of the stuff you really would not want to expose to your animals.

And another thing, while I am on this rant. If you insist on carrying your animals around in a show, please, stay the hell away from my tables. I do NOT want you dropping mites on my tables nor do I want you touching anything at my tables at all. One hundred times over I would rather lose your business than to lose all of my animals because of your completely thoughtless and dangerous actions. Show promoters should have their people walking the aisles looking for this sort of practice and take steps to stop it. The last thing show promoters need to have on their conscience is to be a central rallying place for agressive pathogens to jump from one collection into many over a single weekend. I have heard several ex-vendors say they stopped attending shows just because this very real risk exists and it scares them to death.

EVERYONE needs to get smart about what they are doing and do it quickly.

[KNOBTAIL]

considerations have to be taken into account. Even with the best intentions, it can lead to financial suicide. Depending on whom you are dealing with and the degree of contamination, you could be sued, and sued individually if you are not protected with some kind of liablility. So even under the best of circumstances , wanting to do the right thing, is not necessarily, the best thing.

I have mixed misgivings between doing what is right and what is best. Not only because of the length of time that may be involved, but because of a band wagon mentality that may cost you dearly.

I was at the inception of the litigation when turtles first were edging their way into courts because of Salmonella. Stores were not only receiving supeonas, but their inventory were being seized by health authorities. Complaints of pet shops selling sick turtles were popping up like popcorn. Although here we are some 35 years later, I can very easily see a scenereo with health officials receiving complaints about infected snakes or bearded dragons, well over the limits of liability. These decisions are very difficult to make because the problem is one that seems to occur in the future, and in order to safe guard ones own existance in the herp business, my posture would be whats best ......for me.
JERRY TRESSER

[Adam Block]

First we need to make something very clear! Are we talking money and business or ethics? The two do not go hand and hand and most big breeders as Seamus mentioned got that way for a reason. Tim Rainwater was a big name breeder, so was Tom Crutchfield. Both very likable guys and easy to deal with. They were the big breeders who took everybody because people were too scared to speak up. I mean, they're a big name right? Must have gotten that way for a reason so they could never do any wrong? Seamus, time to open those eyes.

TOS covers you in a court of law. My TOS will tell you flat out I am a slow shipper! However if you failed to see that and it took me a month to ship your item I could see how you would be upset, and understandably so.

From an ethics standpoint, terms have nothing to do with a deal. Quality breeders like Brian Sharp will eat the money and make the customer happy. Breeders like the Rainwaters who have yet to be called out will tell you you're SOL.

Bob Clark, he's a good guy. I have bought from him and would buy from him again. However, the last snakes I bought from him had mites and I would expect if I bought again they would have mites. We've all seen them crawling on his snakes at shows and yet nobody ever has the guts to say it. Why, cause he's a big name.

[KNOBTAIL]

and I am still a bit confused about your postings. I dont know Tim Rainwater, but I do know their is a history of litigation and out and out thievery. With regard to Crutchfield, he was doing business with me probably before you were born, and he had his difficulties with the federal authorities, never once with individuals who claim they were ripped off by him. I dont know how you interpet who is a big breeder , but I do know their are limitations that even the best will mull over before making a decision that could come back and haunt them months down the road. If its a simple problem that can be delt with, than these things can be handled because as you are aware, its the better choice, but if we are talking about a large scale problem, even the best of the best will have reservations.

I will agree with you that ethics have nothing to do with money or business, but I have always found it easier to resolve the problem from a business vantage, and keep the ethics for the philosphers. JERRY

[WebSlave]

Well, since we are hearing the threat of lawsuits brought up, let's think about this.

Lawsuits are expensive propositions, no doubt. And the burden will be on the prosecuting party to prove that the defendant purposely and knowingly sold the suing party animals that were infected with a pathogen knowing that this would cause them financial harm.

Is that going to be easy to prove? I seriously doubt it. Just proving that this person's animals were the source of the pathogen will be just about impossible to do, much less prove any sort of intent on the selling party. A good defending attorney would make mincemeat out of the prosecution unless they have a rock solid case to present.

So make sure you (meaning the *injured* party) have some deep pockets before you go retain that attorney, because that rock solid case is going to cost you dearly. You are going to need a ton of expert witnesses, tests, studies, and professional opinions on your side. When push comes to shove, most people in this business will find out that the entire value of their business will not even be worth the cost of prosecuting such a case.

IMHO, of course.

[CheriS]

Jerry, we are not talking about a bacteria that can be husbandry related or easily cured, but viruses, these do not pass to humans, they are species specific mostly, but they can and do wipe out entire colonies in a matter of days. They don't go away, they can't be cured and the health departments could care less since they do not affect humans physically.

Some animals can be carriers and never show any signs, you can have it for a year or more and never know, unless the person you acquired an infected animal from finds out and tells you, you have them tested or suddenly you start seeing signs in other animals you have or hatchling.
and in order to safe guard ones own existance in the herp business, my posture would be whats best ......for me. That's my point, wouldn't it be better for you if those that find they do have it in their colony and you have bought from them.... inform you of the possibility and you the same to those you have sold to? OR would the best for you be to sell your animal for a year and then find out the hard way, when suddenly yours are dropping dead and you have 200 animals you have sold out there?

I can appreciate others comments about it would take a lot of guts, and may be the end of your business, most times we have seen this happen to others, it is the end of their business, they have infected animals and they're dying, or at minimum will eventually and will always be carriers if they survive. Toss in others expecting to be reimbursed for sales months prior when the seller had no knowledge there was a problem is asking too much. Selling when it is known is inexcusable and that breeder is a low life in my book and should be exposed.

Safeguard your collection with common sense care, but if there is a problem, I think the only way to control that is happening is to acknowledge it and warn others.

Its frustrating for me when we see almost all serious problems trace back to the same few, we have followed several outbreaks of adenovirus for several years, IBD and now paramyxo, the majority of those cases could have been avoided with disclosing the fact someone had it and warning the buyers. We can't do it, we are not the ones with the infected animals or bill of sales, we agree to confidentially when others seek help or information in determining if they have it or how they got it. We can encourage others to stop the passing of it, pressure breeders we know have it to stop selling and ask the community to back those with the guts to acknowledge it.

Caveat Emptor, 'let the buyer beware.'

[Adam Block]

You know what, it's sick that this post is even here! Do the right thing! That's all it comes down to!

If you're in doubt about what the right thing to do is, split the difference and do half of what the other party wants!

This is a hobby, we're all adults. This should be fun and it's not because of things/issues like this. My TOS started with nothing and had to be added to and added to until it was just insane. Even with that I never cared what it said and instead tried to do the right thing. I never followed it, the only reason I had it was to cover my arse.

Seamus, this just dawned on me. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read or respond to it. I'm not here to make friends, the point of the BOI is to have other peoples opinions. If you have an issue with peoples free expression then this isn't the place for you. If I think a breeder sucks I'll let it be known, if you have an issue with my opinion state your own about the person don't act like a child and attack me for thinking differently.

[CheriS]

I think your wrong there Adam, this is a business for many, there was never a question of them wanting to do the right thing, that was stated in the first post, its what their responsibility is as far as the sale.... pointing out many the past were hesitant to

On one case, even 1/2 is over $45,000 , from months ago... could you bear that financial burden? Should they be expected to for something they were unaware of at the time of the sale?

I think they have a moral responsibility to inform other buyers and no financial responsibiity unless the animal was found to be sick or died during the terms of the sale

[KNOBTAIL]

my dealings decades ago dealt with diseases that began to affect humans, but the way things are today, with close eyes on the Reptile industry as a whole, their are people out their who could take a situation like you pointed out that involves transmission from one animal infecting another, not humans and still causing a malstrom. We are living in a paranoid world, where people who have alot of time on their hands have targeted this industry as a pirriah.

I understand the importance of notification, and I tip my hat to those who do the right thing, but its not the herp dealer whom we have to concern ourselves with, its the herp hater who uses these diseases as a posturing position for control of the industry or its irradication. I dont see a difference if its a question of Salmonella or a disease that only effects snakes. The persons who pressure health organizations, and humane societies, look at this as a continuation of a potential hazzard. They are out to destroy the industry. So the dealer who has a problem and knows he has a problem, has a dilemma, and ethically as it might be to notify others, it will surely put him out of business. The human spirit is a complicated, wonderful entity, but I believe that at its core is the law of preservation. To continue to exist. If it means my survival or yours, or the loss of my business or yours, well ......I think you know the answer.

Insofar as Rich Z. statements concerning lawsuits, their are people out their who would sue the wind, if they could. It is not necessary to win but to weardown. Rich may very well be correct about needing alot of proof in order to persue a case, but I was not referring so much to individual suits as much as state or federal suits. They usually dont start that way, but they pick up friends along the way. Like the Dept of Health, Humane Society, etc. I also dont believe that a defendant cannot be sued because he did not knowingly know that his animals were infected. The fact of just selling snakes that effected my collection would be enough for litigation. Whether you would win , would be another story, whether its worth it as Rich points out , or how much money the defendant has are also issues that an attorney might take into consideration as it "in most cases , is not worth persuing" The bottom line to this whole thread,...... let your conscience be your guide. JERRY TRESSER

[Adam Block]

On one case, even 1/2 is over $45,000 , from months ago... could you bear that financial burden? Should they be expected to for something they were unaware of at the time of the sale?

Are you talking about the total for one sale being $90,000 or the cost of a collection that was lost over one bad animal?

I think a sellers liability ends with the snake they sold. The buyer is responcible for their collection and it's health. I always told people to keep snakes bought from me away from their collection until they knew it was clean. I in turn always did the same thing.

If you're talking about a $90,000 sale then yes I think the half rule is fair.

I never set a time I would correct something and think it foolish to do so. I sold a baby snake in 1999 and I was told it was a male. In 2002 the person I sold it to three years prior called me and told me it was a female. My tos was clear in the case but I still corrected the issue.

Your tos and ability to sleep at night are up to the breeder. Do what you want. I personally took pride in my snakes and would have corrected just about anything I could have. If this is your business and you need to follow your tos so close that you can't replace aimals or give refunds no matter what the dollar amount then you should maybe give a little more thought to why you're breeding reptiles.

Regardless, I offer six months in my tos and think all breeders should do the same thing!

[CheriS]

SIX MONTHS!

I am not a snake person, I don't have the knowledge of them.....to know if this is even the normal practice for breeders.

I do know bearded dragons, and I know that they have special DAILY needs to thrive well, even with good care sheet info, many people ignore the basic for them and lose them due to poor husbandry and their own mistakes. Six months would be impossible for a breeder of them, they would be out of business in a month!

I have never had to replace a lost dragon, I have not had any as far as I know. If I miss sexed one and the owner wanted it exchanged, I would gladly do that, but never had that happen either. I think one of the big differences between snake owners and beardie owners is the beardies are bonded pets and few want to part with them later, they become a part of the family

Can someone tell me if this 6 months is normal in the industry? That just seems foolish to me, I may be wrong, like I said, this is not an area I am knowledgeable in

The figure above was just for dragons that the breeder had sold over the past year, back to a time the one that was infected came into his colony and MAY have exposed others to it.

[Seamus Haley]

Six months is far from standard.

While more active species that eat daily and have a much faster metabolism will frequently show problems sooner than species that live a slower pace... Six months into a situation, without some serious evidence that the problem originated at the breeder's facility and under the breeder's care... The issue is a husbandry related problem at the buyer's end.

Anyone hoping to really be sucessful will never guarantee animals for that length of time... I have seen ninety day guarantees, but these were limited in scope.

Of course... this is pretty unrelated to the original topic that Cheri had posted about... Which is a breeder/broker/dealer who is aware that they have a serious problem infecting their collection that can lay dormant for a long period of time, undetected. There are only a few conditions which are common, serious enough to be of concern and likely to infect entire collections... they are a major concern.

Morally, a responsible breeder will at least inform their customers of the possibility that something moved from one collection to another. After their terms have expired, they are under no obligation to financially recompensate a buyer for anything, even if it is entirely the fault of the breeder... But at least let these people know that they might be having a problem, so that they can practice proper quaranteen on their entire collection and possible go the extra step to have the animal(s) in question tested (even though it sometimes requires euthenasia).

And Adam... I was merely poiting out that your position seemed to be biased because of your experiences with NERD, in which you tried to attack them and demanded a return of your money even though you didn't deserve one... You looked very foolish and your continued defense of your position in that thread only makes you look *more* foolish. Anyone interested in the specifics of that situation can familiarize themselves with the details by doing a keyword search for Adam's name, NERD and the words "Albino Ball Python" In order to understand his position on this issue, one must understand his history.

[WebSlave]

But a word of warning: Do not diverge onto that Adam Block vs NERD issue here, please.

[dwedeking]

Remember the guy that was on here early this year. WormMan wasn't able to get him crickets due to the holiday season. He said for this reason his dragon starved to death and wanted WormMan to pay for the damages. $300,000 worth of damages (he counted all the offspring this dragon may have had through it's breeding life). These are the type of customers that Jerry has a terms page for. Not those that you can reasonably work with on a comprimise to solve an issues (even if you are not in the wrong at all). It's that 1%'er out there that may just locate a lawyers number in the phone book and make life hell.

I even had a customer say they did not receive a dragon we sent out..... until I showed him his signature on a fax from UPS. There's scammers on the buying end as well that you NEED to protect yourself from.

Earlier this year a breeder/importer that we get Uro's from called us to have us check the last couple we got from him for mites. He had just noted some on a group in the same batch as what he sent us. We were appreciative and easily took care of the issue (granted not as large a problem as a virus infection and we quarantine so it was isolated). But what he had made that call to one of the two guys above. If they started whining about how he needs to pay for time and materials to solve the issue because they didn't quarantine and their whole collection was infected. How many calls do you think he would make after just one of those responses?

[KNOBTAIL]

may as well be 6 years. Its ridiculous. I have no intentions in marrying my customer. Thats what Adam seems to be doing. I sleep very well at night with my 24 hour guarantee. The owner must burdon some responsibility and I think Adams approach is begging for trouble. If Adam feels it necessary to keep a liability on his shoulders , so be it. One day he will come up against the wrong guy, and with Adams TOS, he will have plenty to refund.
JERRY TRESSER

[Adam Block]

This thread is just getting silly. Agreed?

With that said.

Anyone hoping to really be sucessful will never guarantee animals for that length of time... I have seen ninety day guarantees, but these were limited in scope.


Are you talking about making money and buying a big house or keeping your customers happy?

Doesn't Don S. offer a six month? I don't know about you Seamus but I'd rate him as one of the top breeders in the Country!

I don't offer six months in the event that the snakes were cared for poorly and died! I offer it for situations where the customer is unhappy. This could be due to the wrong sex, temperment, color or a genetic issue.

24 hours is fine if you have little faith in your animals or are worried mainly about the money end of it. I personally know my animals well enough to be sure they will live longer then 24 hours and I'll stand behind that.


Seamus, ever thread I post in you seem to have something to say about the past. Why, I have no idea but I think it's time to get over the issue or start a whole new thread to see how many other people still care enough about it. Like I said, stop responding to my posts if you can't deal with how I feel about people.

demanded a return of your money even though you didn't deserve one...

I would urge you to read the thread again as I never asked for money. I asked for a replacement animal valued at less then 50% of the one that died.

Webslave, I am sorry threads get turned into issues like this. As you can see in most cases they are pointed in that direction by one of four people and I do my very best to avoid responding. I know I have baggage here and I'm sorry for the effect that has in productive threads.

[CheriS]

This was a post that was intended to be serious, many animals are at risk and some breeders collections, people want to do the right thing and just wanted to know where their responsibilty is.

Adam, How dare you turn it into a pissing ground for your own personal agenda and gripes! Then when it does not go your selfish way you call it silly? come back on and us it to promote your gripes again

pfft!

Seamus stated some very useful info for others, thats what people were asking for, not this!

[WebSlave]

Heck, I haven't gone through an entire thread and deleted all of the off topic garbage since the BOI version #1. But it is MUCH easier to do in this message board software, so please, if you all are going to decide to discuss guarantee periods, past history, or someone history, make up your own thread about it and keep it there.

Just in case anyone doesn't know these little tidbits: (1) Just because someone says something about you, you DO NOT have to feel obligated to respond. (2) Just because someone tries to yank a thread off topic, inadvertently or not, YOU do not have to help them.

Sometimes I do regret going to a non-subthreaded message board. It would be SO easy to just lop off a subthread when it goes off on it's own tangent.

I am now thinking seriously about asking my programmer to put in a "go to your room" option on this site. Basically lock someone out for 48 hours or so as a cooling down period. So go ahead, give me the incentive to implement it.

[Wilomn]

Nyah, Nyah, Nyah, Webslave..... I bet you won't do it.

No....No... not in the briarpatch, anywhere but the briarpatch, I hate the briarpatch.......

But seriously, if you do ever "send me to my room" could you make Wendy and/or Stardust go with me?

PLEASE???

Wes Pollock

[WebSlave]

Do you REALLY want another warning point, Wes?

[KelliH]

I feel that the seller's obligation/responsibility is pretty much over once the guarantee period (whatever that may be) ends. I do feel that if a breeder discovers that they have a disease in their collection, they have a responsibilty to keep the disease from spreading to other collections. They would either have to stop breeding selling herps, or completely start over.

For instance, if I were to discover that I had a fatal disease in my leopard gecko collection I would have a decision to make. I could stop breeding and selling leopard geckos and do my best to keep the geckos I already have (that are diseased) alive. They could never be sold, and I could never breed them or keep leopard geckos in my home until they died. Or, as painful as it would be to do, I would have to euthanize all the diseased animals, thoroughly clean and disinfect all my enclosures, rooms, etc., wait several months and then slowly start over with new animals.

Do I have a responsibility to inform every person that has purchased a gecko from me that I have recently discovered this disease in my collection? That is a tough one. I think that at that point all I could really do is to be responsible for my own collection, and make one of the two choices listed above. Get out completely or start anew with new, unifected stock. WOuld most breeders do the same as I would? Yes, I like to think so. Would a few breeders keep selling animals, even if they knew they were infected with a deadly disease? Yes, unfortunately they would. This is where ethics and moral decisions come into play. And, yes, it is possible to make the best business decision in a moral and ethical manner. JMHO!:)

[WebSlave]

My opinion is that many breeders would get out of the hobby or business if they found they had some deadly incurable contagious pathogen in their collection. AFTER selling off everything they had as quickly as possible. Personally, I believe it has already happened that way, more than once. I have heard a lot of really bad rumors floating around that when you put two and two together, add up to a really ugly picture.

In my own case, since quite a few of the corn snakes I have are irreplaceable, the game would just be over with. It would be the hardest thing I can think of in my life to do, but I would euthanize every last one of them, then be out of the business for good. Afterwards I would send letters to all of my customers within the past year explaining the situation as best I could. No forwarding address provided.

I could never intentionally want to look another snake in the eye after what I had done.

Then I would put in an application at Walmart to try to snag a job as a greeter at the front door.

IMHO.

[Hawkeyeherps]

My father is a dove breeder and this exact thing happened to him. My father discovered he had Mycobacterium in his collection. He went to several vets and got differing opinions on whether or not it was curable. he tried two different medications but he was losing birds. My father called the people he sold birds to that he thought wouldn't try to cheat him, told them about his collection and offered to replace birds from a friend's loft. No one took him up on his offer. Not all of his collection was infected, but with mycobacterium, the room itself would be the carrier, i.e. feces, substrate, etc. Then my father euthanized 50 doves, gutted his dove room, waited six months and started over. Dad didn't have to buy many birds, his friends gave them to him for free to get him back on his feet. My dad now has all of his birds tested and tests all new ones coming in. It is expensive and time consuming but he always thinks about the day he put down his entire collection.
One of my dad's worries, and I think it is one felt by some here, is that someone he sold a healthy bird to would say he got a sick one, that it killed his loft and he want's to be paid for everything. How would dad know if the guy was telling the truth if he lived across the country? Dad never hid the fact that his loft was infected, but he didn't declare it from the rafters either. I think he did the right thing.

[Adam Block]

Cheri, you're way off base, my intent was nothing even close to what you mentioned.

That was a case where the breeders TOS didn't say anything to cover the situation. A breeder like Brian Sharp would have covered it but other breeders wouldn't.

I urge you to re-read what was said as my intention was not to turn this into a nerd thread. It's my feeling that the issue is water under the bridge however I'm not going to avoid the lessions I've learned from it because it's a sore topic.

Me saying it was getting to be a silly thread was due to the comments prior to my post and not meant to address the entire thread.

I'm not here to get into a pissing match with anybody. My feelings on this are that while a tos is a good base to go off it's not a cure all and that customers need to be dealt with based on the situation and not your tos.

Sorry if I offended you Cheri! Honestly, I'll rattle a cage or two on the BOI from time to time but I'm not here starting trouble. I feel like I can do some good here and provide help to people. I was able to get one persons $1,500 refunded and that I would have to say was done 90% because I spent a few hours forcing the hands of the people involved.

Again, I think this thread was started by you and is a great topic, I truely am sorry if you feel I've shown it/you any disrespect at all. That was in no way my intention.