Kingsnake problem, anyone else had this problem with classified account? [Archive]

JungleHabitats

11-04-2003, 06:31 PM

first of all i myself can honestly say i fall at no ones feet BUT my sons. Yes i have a KS account does it bother me ? nahh not really see in life there are all kinds of things that one does in life for a reason ... I got a KS account last yr when i had a large clutch of boas born .. i used it to sale them there and i also sold them here ... now with that said i somewhat kinda think i understand what you said

I watched with interest as this site got blocked from kingsnake.com, and there was barely a ripple of outrage from the masses here, where the same thing done by other sites to other people got most everyone worked up into a frenzy of condemnation.
why would we even care ? they way i see it in my line of work i am a contractor by trade i dont go advertising the competition so i wouldnt expect the competition to advertise for me ... thats simple kinda like a "No compete clause" if you ask me

But obviously the fear of losing their account was enough for you good people to swallow your pride and ethics and turn a blind eye.
look at my above reply for this answer

Look at all of the discussion about Mario Stinso and his boycott. Isn't Jeffie basically doing the same thing by blocking domain names from being typed into the forums over there?
that got feedback due to its just to damn funny and came from someone who is really in need of a therapist

Then Jeffie went and banned the owner of this site's other domains as well, and again I watched with amusement as the BOI hypocrites did nothing and said nothing at all about it
Again that is a choice jeff was fully free to make does it mean rich would do the same ? maybe its his choice

Most of you people make my lower intestines twinge, wanting to expell what I think about you
Please dont hold back i am sure 90% of are adults and beleive me if i knew you on a personell basis and i didnt like you i would surely let it be known . But as of now i have no hate for you and my intestines only twinge on bad mexican food

You base your good guy/bad guy labels based on what the target is to you, financially, rather than a completely unbiased view of what they are doing. Most of what many people say here is just so genuinely biased based on personal self interest that it makes the BOI nearly meaningless
this is called bad buisness on there part .. if someone duffs a transaction in my line of work (contracting) and i hear of it i give my opion if i am asked to do so i then tell that person that was duffed what i can do for them if it makes me money well all the better if they choose to go back to the person who duffed them then they in my eyes deserve what they get with that choice plain & simple

Kingsnake.com is what it is because you people are there advertising there and falling all over yourselves to give Jeffie your money. So when Jeffie finally turns his attentions to you and demands that you suck his big toe or you lose your account, don't come crying here about it. You are only reaping the crop from the seeds that you have sown

Read my first line my son is only person i cater to if Jeff feels the need to cancel my account is there anything i can do ? no

just for the record i have not used that account for 7-8 months to sale a snake on due to the fact that i have none to sale .. will i let the account expire when time is up maybe ... maybe not all depends on how i feel at the time does it have anything to do with how jeff is not IMO due to the fact i am fully aware of his sites rules if i violate them im out no biggie i have lost more money in a bar or at a poker table then i will lose with jeff

now to just clear this post up im not mad at you Jolly or giving [bleep] to you just answering what you dared me to ... have a good night

oh by the way read the TOS of the BOI it plainly states you need a FULL NAME to post or it will be deleted

Roger Jolly

11-04-2003, 07:05 PM

Sure is a real mind boggler to figger out that my real name actually is ROGER JOLLY, now ain't it?

As I am predicting, watch this thread be read a lot but replied to very little. Especially by those members that have a financial interest in that site. Yeah, get business and ethics in an arm wrestling match, you tell me who would win, hands down.

You are ignoring my point. In that kind of environment, what purpose is served by the BOI with input from such members? I do believe that some members have recognized that conflict and don't come here any more for that reason. Kudos to those gents for having the balls to recognize the face in the mirror. Or is it simply fear that Jeffie will see them as members here and might get his nose twisted out of joint over it? In that case, we have a case of some gonad challenged members, I suppose.

Whatever. Have a nice night, gents. Watching nekked ladies on the screen is a much more enjoyable use of my time then being here rubbing your noses in your own droppings.

Adam Block

11-04-2003, 07:17 PM

Things that suck but we still use them include:

Microsoft
Wal-Mart
Gas Prices
Kingsnake

Fact of the matter is people turn a blind eye to anything that makes them money or is too big for them to speak against without loosing face.

Cases in point:

Bob Clarks collection of mites that have a snake infestation.

The Bell's practices, come on, you've all heard about how the man keeps those king snakes he produces, I bought from him years ago, under-fed yearlings, not great snakes by any means. He's the biggest not the best yet nobody will say a bad word about him.

There are few big people in this business that got there by producing super high quality animals and keeping a high moral standing in the business community.

Kingsnake is UNTOUCHABLE!!! That is the one message that has rang clear to me for the past year.

I had a poll someplace on the BOI and asked if the big name breeders were untouchable, without having to say who thought so the truth came out.

Just as a side note, when Jeff stole my money the TOS didn't say there was no refund, he added that for me. Way I figure it is I hear all the time the man is looking worse and worse, it can get away with a lotta things but can't hide from Kahrma!

KJUN

11-04-2003, 07:51 PM

OK, so why does THIS thread get to stay when no facts are given, silly accusations are made without evidence, and posts are made all through it without people properly putting their names at the bottom? I'm not even counting that if this wasa personal affront, someone would be complaining that a new thread was started on an old topic.

Is it because it is anti-kingsnake or have the rules been laxed on the BOI which allows people to acuse others of mysterious actions without proof?

It is no secret that I like Jeff. I have found him to be fair to me when I am fair to him. That's how I judge a person. I may not agree with all of the things done under his name, but I respect him and can usually see where the person deserved some action against the,. Matter of fact, if it was my site (which it isn't), I'd be even more strict and make everyone follow the TOS to the T...lol. I am not here to defend him - I'm not his Mamma.

I am here asking why isn't he given the same treatment that the "bad guys" get. Fair is fair or this site well become a useless cesspool. That would be true even if I hated Jeff. Fair is fair. Why is everyone here doing what they just accused him of doing while sitting up on their own high horse?

Of course, I point no fingers at anyone. I'm just speaking air. I certainly point no fingers at Webslave, because I like him, too AND he hasn't even posted on this thread....lol. So, I can't even if I wanted to. :) I'm also glad for many of the things Webslave has done, too. My hat's off to him.

KJ

Suncoast Herpetological

11-04-2003, 08:06 PM

I am curious. This question is directed to the starter of this thread. Are you claiming that with no provocation, no infraction of TOS and no warning you simply received an email stating that you account had been cancelled? No reason or explanation was given?

If this is your claim, I find it extremely difficult to believe. Of the two people who post here that I can recall that got the boot from Kingsnake, both were banned for legitamate reasons and were alerted in detail as to the cause.

Adam did virtually everything he could to get himself booted. He purposely kept butting up against their TOS and ignored several warnings. (Just about the way he got himself booted off of this site as well). The other guy (name escapes me) sent Jeff a scathing Email that called him a poor businessman for not alerting him to the renewal date on his account. If I were Jeff, i would have booted him too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you have a specific gripe...voice it and state the details. If you can't do that then the allusions and innuendo have no place here. The General Business Discussions forum is designed specifically for this type of meandering crap.

JungleHabitats

11-04-2003, 08:31 PM

posts are made all through it without people properly putting their names at the bottom

but what is your full name ? im not postive but id say you were not named KJ as a first name ? if im wrong im truely sorry but when you want to talk about rules you must first learn to follow them yourself

full name in post my friend

Adam Block

11-04-2003, 08:54 PM

KJ, there isn't one post in here without a name so I don't know where you got that from.

Alan, I think we all know who KJ is. He goes by KJ and while I see your point, the BOI says full name and not nick name I don't know what to say. KJ, you're the one saying fair is fair and the only one in this thread without his full name as tos says.

John, you must have taken a wrong turn someplace. I've heard time after time how I was doing things I shouldn't have on kingsnake. From the time I was emailed about the issue at hand to the time I was booted was like 15 minutes. I think you should get your facts in order before you crack those knuckles and start typing. I'd been using kingsnake since it was alterna.com and that was the first issue EVER!

I posted links where the Barkers were violating TOS, are you saying they should be booted too?

I would bet ANYBODY on here I can find 50 ads on KS right now that violate their TOS and nothing is done about it! Are you saying all their accounts should be banned too?

Look at this TOS:

http://market.king*****.com/tos.php (I edited that, just don't want that link popping up in a seach and getting Jeff more attention)

That is INSANE!!!

Adam Block

11-04-2003, 09:02 PM

"Your account has been terminated.

Your refund for the balance of your account services
is enroute via whatever methodology you paid us with."

Just for kicks I thought I'd put that quote from Jeff to me up. Of course that refund never did come! I'll have to assume he changed his TOS just because of me, hey, put it in the TOS that way you have an excuse for stealing from people.

NEWReptiles

11-04-2003, 09:03 PM

Jeff stole my money because I posted pics in the pic forum that were "unacceptable"

NO warnings, just wheeled off.

The pics were of my car before we left for Daytona a few months ago. I thought they were fine because my car was modified for the trip to the big show. NO NUDITY and NOTHING OFFENSIVE.

KJUN

11-04-2003, 09:10 PM

That's funny. The name comment I was commenting on was Mr. Roger Jolly or Jolly Roger. I won't go so far as to say that isn't a real name (it could be!), but it wasn't posted properly in the first place.

As far as KJ being my name, no. It is NOT what is on my birth certificate. My name is Kenneth Joseph Lodrigue, Jr. Wait. That's a lie. I guess I should write "Junior." Nope. It isn't that way on my birth certificate. I guess it is Kenneth Joseph Lodrigue with no junior even though I'm named after my father. I'll break the news to him. Oh, crap. I've been spelling it as Josef (German spelling) for almost 2 decades now. I'm gonna rot in Hades.

On the other hand, US regs say a court approved change only makes a name change official. I can legally go by the name I choose (not for SS purposes, though). With that in mind, I just looked at my degrees. They all say KJ. I checked my CHL. Guess what it says: KJ. Hmmm, credit cards, phone service, etc.? You guessed it. So, if you wanted to find me, would you look under "KJ" or "Kenneth?"

So, if you want to fuss at me for using "KJ," then kick off everyone that hasn't put their middle name in a post since it is part of their COMPLETE name. In this thread alone, does Wes's name actually say Wes on his birth certificate? What about Al? Come on. You two are being childish.

KJ IS my name as far as I am concerned. If Rich (hmmm, bet that isn't his first name, either...lol), doesn't like that, I'll enjoy being banned....lol. As far as you two go, either pick on my name or answer my questions. I always liked the conversations I had in the past with you Adam, but I think you deserved to get kicked off of Kingsnake.com as much as you deserved to get kicked off of this site. I should follow your advice on the rules since you should know them all - you've been warned for breaking them all it seems....lol.

Now, argue about my name as much as you want, but don't expect any answers from me until someone addresses why this is allowed to remain here and open without proof of a wrong-doing done to Mrs. Savannah "no middle name" Sernas by kingsnake.com while other posts were removed - OR CORRECTED - for less?

KJ

JungleHabitats

11-04-2003, 09:33 PM

as you said for Jeffery ... its his site and his rules ... same applies for Rich Zuhkowski... if you dont like by all means we will not force you to use it all were saying when you want to get there from here you have to follow the directions for getting there .

Whether or not this post stays here is totally at richs discretionif he feels its legit it will stay if not im sure it will go . After reading the TOS for jefferies place i had to hold onto my chair it would be easy for him to ban damn near everyone there from his terms ... but as Adam i believe it was said the most money stays ... there are numerous posts made there that blatently go against his very own TOS... i could go in and count many that post more then 3 a day , post morethen one add per snake etc ... Prehistoric pets is always famous for the posting more then 3 in a day i have seen 4-5-6 in a day from them i had even used his own saying " please let us know of any violations of our TOS" well that was as useless as tits on a bull due to why ?? the fact that they paid for LARGE accounts and will again next yr yeah he could ban them keep there $$$ but how much would he lose in doing that? more then he would if he turned his head to them

heres a few just in the boas classifieds who have violated his TOS on daily posts of no more then three
Serpents Den-5
City of roses herpetoculture-5

if i had timeto waste i am sure there many more that violate other TOS there in there posts like PreHistoric pets where when you there ad is showing a "clickable link that re directs you to there site .. jeff said tha he doesnt let you post that to get web traffic ? the list is longer then you meager beef with this post so please can the corn KJ ...

Suncoast Herpetological

11-04-2003, 10:27 PM

Posted on an earlier thread by Adam Block. The link to the full thread is below.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10740&highlight=kingsnake+account

"I started seeing all of the supply ads that are basicly playing on people lack of time to find a good price or the correct use of a product. Many, like DCL selling liners at $30 when you can buy them from the same place he does for under $10 just tick me off. I would rather see people spend this money on their reptiles then his advertising. Then other like Pro Exotics selling Virosan pre mixed to people for $5 a pop just tick me off because it's a product that loses effectiveness after being mixed and should be mixed each time you use it, once mixed the shelf life is short. I don't want to see people buying something on a claim and having the seller make money on something that will no longer meet that claim.

So what I did was offer the information for free to people. For some very odd reason that went over less then well and it was suggested I charge for it so the general public didn't have access to it. I was fine with that but don't want to make money so I thought I would ask for a donation to keep adding to the list and bringing people betting info.

As such I posted an ad on kingsnake.com and got tagged hard with a warning from none other then Jeff.

Now, I've been less then happy with him and his selective sensoring of ads. Seems 10 of my ads were removed for things I see people doing EVERY DAY, big name people. Things like posting an ad in the Colubrid section and mentioning the Boa you have for sale. None of these ads get removed but then again this situation with me comes down to bottom dollar."

Basically you took it upon yourself to advertise other sources on Kingsnake that directly competed with the paying merchants who advertise there. In essence, giving those sources free advertising on Kingsnake. Gee...I can't imagine why the paying merchants and Jeff got pissed. If you felt that badly about people possibly paying too much you should have started your own company and undercut the other suppliers. That would have been fair competion. What you did was, in essence, attempt to fix prices. If you wanted to give the list away on your own site...fine. What you did do was blatantly wrong.

Also posted by Adam in the same thread.

"
I was going to post another ad "selling a list" with this information and wanted to ask if you can see anything in the TOS saying I couldn't do that? If so do you have any ideas how I can post this info in the supplies section?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No
You may NOT sell a list.
Once again that is advertising for other businesses
If it shows up your gone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just got this email, that blows that idea, any others?"

And

"Well, I guess an email questioning his motive was all it took. We'll see if the refund comes, if not Jeff has stole my money as I hadn't posted another ad that violated (well, I didn't even have time to place another) TOS after he warned me."

And also:

"
Jeff's little ego was offended by the emails so you deleted my account"

Let's see...

1.) They deleted 10 ads that you posted that violated TOS

2.) They warned you about the ad giving away a list to screw with his paying members

3.) You contacted them and asked if there was a way to get around their terms of service and still post the list.

4.) You then sent Jeff an Email "questioning his motive" (I'm sure that was a real doozie)

5.) He then cancelled your account

Yup...that really sounds like he warned you and then booted you with no provacation on your first infraction.

Why do you find it necessary to continuosly lie on this forum Adam? Do you think no one knows how to use the search feature on this site? You have been a troublemaker since day one here and it is pretty safe to assume that your attitude back then on Kingsnake was similar to your twisted attitude in your first incarnation on this site.

Adam has said repeatedly "Jeff stole my money"

Adam, if you pay to go into any venue and then violate their TOS and act like an ass do you honestly think they should give you a refund? Take a walk into the real world boy. Business is business and troublemakers and malcontents who have the mistaken grandiose opinion that they are smarter than the rest of the populace are not particularly welcome anywhere. I would think your trend of getting the boot on both of these sites would have taught you something.

David Boggs

11-04-2003, 10:45 PM

I am new to the reptile internet sales thing. I have been a member here for a few months and think this is a fantastic site for discussion and sales of reptiles and supplies. I recently opened a classified account on KS and put "for sale or trade" in one of my ads. I got an e-mail asking me to place the ad either in for sale or trade section and use correct wording. I went in and edited out the "or trade" part and have had no problem. I appreciate the fact that I was requested to ammend my ad rather than just having it deleted. This is my newby and naive opinion. Thank you for reading it. David Boggs

Adam Block

11-04-2003, 10:51 PM

KJ, I always have liked you because you don't stand down to anybody. That hasn't changed I see and I'm sure I still like you. However, you're as easly sidetracked as an ant with a leaf in his path. Do you really think the name thing was an issue warrenting that long of a post? I think KJ is fine, Rich even more so because if I were looking for him I would looke for his full name before Rich. With KJ I would have guessed Kenin long before Ken.

I was a paying merchant on kingsnake and while I'll be the first to say the post may have violated TOS that why I never posted it again after being asked not to. Still, I was kicked off cause, well, Jeff was off his meds or whatever it is that causes him to inforce his rules so wishy washy and come across as two different people.

Let me make a list here:

1) I produce ZERO snakes!

2) I make NO money off reptiles!

3) I'm not looking to get anything from anybody having to do with herps!

4) I haven't bought a snake in at least 6 months.

5) I have no interest or need in advertising on, using or posting at kingsnake.

I know it should be REALLY easy to figure out but what's my motivation for lying again?

I'll tell you all what since as adults you can't seem to stay on track. I'm telling people about my dealing with kingsnake.

From what I saw this was a post about kingsnake.

There are a ton of threads about me and even some addressing my issues with kingsnake. If you still need to hash over those facts, bring one of those threads back to the top of the pile or start a whole new Adam Block thread to help you deal with this. Don't violate this boards TOS to post off topic about me. I as well as many others I'm sure are getting a little tired of any post I say something in turning into an Adam Block tread.

Thank you all kindly and I look forward to addressing whatever issues you have with me in a post that would be better suited to the topics.

Adam Block

11-04-2003, 10:54 PM

Oh and John, the refund was Jeff's words not mine.

Your account has been terminated.

Your refund for the balance of your account services
is enroute via whatever methodology you paid us with."

I think I should be given a refund if they say they will. Jeff said he would and never did but I can see how you all would like to overlook that.

W.Wedeking

11-04-2003, 11:08 PM

Savannah,
How were you notified that your account was cancelled? Did you email anyone at Kingsnake and ask why?

Seamus Haley

11-04-2003, 11:10 PM

I've made my feelings about Kingsnake pretty clear, albeit for different reasons...

One thing though... which can be taken however the reader chooses...

IF I remember correctly... Adam had cancelled the card/checking account/debit/whatever that he had used to pay for the Kingsnake classified account. Jeff's email stated that Adam's refund would be issued in the same manner it had been paid... which would generaly mean crediting the card/account that had been used to set the classified account up...

On the one hand, Adam did inform Jeff that the account had been terminated and requested a refund via a different method. If Jeff had been intent on actually refunding the money, it would have been a very simple matter to do so.

On the other, KS's agreement when you set up an account states in it's text the manner in which refunds will be given and it's not Jeff's fault that Adam cancelled his account.

I figured this was worth mentioning because... it's unknown if Jeff even tried to issue a refund or not. It may have never been sent, it may have been bounced off an inactive card/account and no further attempt was made.

WebSlave

11-04-2003, 11:12 PM

In response to KJ's query:

Please show me anywhere at all that I have stated that PROOF is necessary to post on the BOI. Anyone at all able to do that?

Matter of fact, it wasn't that long ago that I addressed this very same issue and stated plainly that proof is not required here at all. If YOU require proof, then fine, you may request that from the poster of the message. But lack of provided proof is certainly no grounds to remove a thread or a message from the BOI.

I named this forum The Board Of Inquiry for a very good reason. This is NOT a judge and jury environment. And it cannot be, simply because there is way too much opportunity for people to post anonymously, even providing names which may or may not be real. FACTS are requested, but only as evidence of your establishing credibility with what you are stating. FULL NAMES are required, with the intent of assigning ownership to those facts. If someone requires proof in order to believe your facts, then it is at your discretion whether or not you wish to provide them. Everything else should be taken with a big grain of salt and a healthy dose of skepticism. But NOT to the point that a person is harrassed for not complying for your request for proof.

Belief is optional here when facts are presented. The BOI is provided as a means for people to state issues of concern, and it is up to them to provide the means for credibility to be established. It is also to the benefit of the readers to consider what credibility may exist in what anyone states here, if they are reading a thread about a person or business with the intention of doing business with them. People will post both good and bad things about anyone, sometimes with their own motives in mind. Unfortunately, this message board software does not come with it's own BS-O-Meter in place. You have to use your own that came with that lump above your shoulders that your hat sets on.

There is a lot of leeway in how and what can be posted here. The rules are in place to help (1) establish the identity of the person making the post, (2) assist in establishing credibility as needed, and (3) keep all discussions on a level palatable to a mature adult audience intent on learning something of value from the words written here.

Opinions of non-involved parties are also invited, much to the dismay of some people, but nonetheless something I feel is important to provide. Peer pressure is a powerful tool, yet is certainly a blade that is sharpened on both sides, which many people have learned after the fact. A discussion will certainly now always go in the direction that you had intended and desired.

Now, why does this thread remain here? Why, because I see no reason at this point to move it elsewhere. Someone has posted a query concerning a classified account, which implies that money has changed hands, and this could be an issue where a simple inquiry has been made to be considered as fair game for the "board" that constitutes the BOI.

I believe this is a legitimate issue, and someone obviously is searching for information to support an issue they are involved in.

Quite frankly, and probably rather relevant, I could post my own experiences with Jeff Barringer and kingsnake.com here, but since this is pretty much spelled out in great detail in threads in the Web Watch forum on this site, I see no need to repeat myself in this thread.

So all in all, this thread has not violated any of the rules I have set up, and as such, I believe I would catch much more grief by deleting or moving it then I would by allowing it to remain. But push come to shove, I didn't make the rules for myself to follow anyway. Call it executive privilege if you want, but I will consider all applications of any rule here as being optional and on a case by case basis at my discretion. The topmost criteria for me to consider is "is the information portrayed in this thread or post of some benefit to a person reading it?" Regardless of who is the target of the inquiry.

KelliH

11-04-2003, 11:54 PM

I want to say right off the bat here that I enjoy Fauna Classifieds immensely, especially the BOI and I think Rich has done a fantastic job with the site and that it has come a long way. It is certainly a valuable resource to the herp industry at times and also makes for some extremely enjoyable and interesting reads.

That being said, I have had an ad deleted from kingsnake.com. It was because I posted "Animals Available at the DFW Show" as the header and then inside posted what I would have available at the show and when and where the show was. I did receive an email from kingsnake stating why they deleted it, which is because it violates their TOS. Actually i sort of knew it was a violation, but I had seen others post similar ads so I figured I would go ahead and post and see what happened. Well, it got deleted. Was I pissed? For about half a minute, yeah. But I knew I was wrong for posting the ad the way I did, and so what if others do it and get away with it, I got busted, that's my crappy luck!

I APPRECIATE Jeff Barringer and what he provides to us via kingsnake.com. We make lots of money every year as a result of ads posted on his site. I think the cost to post there is very reasonable (even though I always bitch when the rates go up!). In fact, I will go as far as to say that if there was no kingsnake.com H.I.S.S. would not exist. It is pretty much impossible for us to attend any of the larger, out of state shows (kids and job make it so), so we sell the majority of our animals on kingsnake.

I feel like there must be a reason that Savanah has had her posting privileges removed, I just don't believe that it happened for no reason. Also, something to remember is this: Jeff rarely does any of the day to day website stuff now, he has a staff that takes care of most of it so he may not even know about this particular issue.

Anyway, you guys can think I am kissing Jeff's ass if you want to, that's fine, I don't care. I do get irritated at some of the policy changes, price changes, whatever but I still have to say I appreciate the site and enjoy posting there.

By the way, I did see another ad similar in wording to mine in the classified section on kingsnake a couple of days ago, and it was posted by a fairly big name, however it was deleted within a couple of hours. Just thought I would throw that in. Thanks for listening.

Adam Block

11-05-2003, 01:48 AM

You know what we've established? This:

J-walking, against the law, do we all do it? YES! Can we be taken to jail for it? Yes! Would that be fair? NO but it's the law!

Seatbelts, are they the law? YES! Same applys to this as the above.

Kingsnake is Jeff's site and he can make and apply his laws where, when and to whom he sees fit. END OF STORY!

If you don't like it, don't support him!

What I find funny here is what Jeff doesn't know. The number of people that won't sponcer a forum, have not renewed their account and have been kicked off would total $10,000's a year for him. This is money Jeff doesn't have to miss cause he don't know what he'd have if he were just a kinder and more fair person.

Folks, do you think reptiles is anything? Money wise, it's a drop in the bucket! Think of Dogs, Cats, Fish and the other animals. I know first hand those site would make him 100x what kingsnake does, why do you think he's launched them? However, his reputation with kingsnake has KILLED that for him. He doesn't have a hold on those markets and WILL NEVER get it because nobody will support him there seeing and knowing his poor judgement with KS.

Jeff saw KS as a chance to bust into the other markets. He lets accounts post on the other site for the same cost of a membership to bring traffic, the same traffic that his forums brought to KS. Just think, once the Dog site gets huge, he then charges for those accounts, they're no longer included with KS and so on and so on. However, people like me, KJ, Rich and the others who spend HOURS helping and talking to people in the forums will never be there to bring the other sites traffic, cause Jeff has poor ethics and forgot who got KS to where it is.

Oh well, like I always say, him having to live his own life is punishment enough for me:)

Roger Jolly

11-05-2003, 04:24 AM

Please check out this quote from KelliH:

In fact, I will go as far as to say that if there was no kingsnake.com H.I.S.S. would not exist.

I knew someone would post something like this. And it is going to prove the point I am trying to drive home here. Since you posted that, Kelli, let me ask you directly.

First, let us make some assumptions and clarifications:

(a) Jeffie knows the power he holds over peoples businesses.
(b) You yourself have stated that without kingsnake.com, your business would not exist. We can assume that others are in the same boat.
(c) It is well known that Jeffie will drop an account for no other reason than he disagrees with the person who has the account.
(d) We also know that it doesn't necessarily take a violation of his TOS for this to happen either.

Now let us extrapolate and speculate a bit (all my opinions, of course):

(a) Unless you want your business to fold, you have no other choice but to turn a blind eye to any wrong doing Jeffie may do in this business. To do otherwise, and post about it in public, runs you the risk of being dropped from kingsnake.com.
(b) If Jeffie wields this power in a spiteful and malicious manner (meaning doing so in a capricious and emotional manner, mostly out of anger), he is probably doing it hoping that his actions will do harm, perhaps terminally, to the persons business he drops the account of.
(c) There is reasonable evidence, even on this site alone, that such actions have been done enough times to indicate a pattern of premeditated attempts to harm other people.
(d) Such actions, and the resulting damage, can certainly be no less reprehensible then anything any bad guy has been brutally called to the carpet on within the BOI. For instance, is trying to destroy someones business by banning them from their primary avenue for their livelihood any less reprehensible than knowingly sending someone an animal infected with a lethal infectious disease?

Kelli, under those circumstances, if such evidence was overwhelming in supporting my above statements, would you chose to ignore them in order to save your business?

Let's take a couple of quotes from Jerry Tresser, which I believe are pretty much straightforward in describing what I see as the general mentality and ethical composition of many of the people passing judgements on the BOI:

I will agree with you that ethics have nothing to do with money or business, but I have always found it easier to resolve the problem from a business vantage, and keep the ethics for the philosphers.

If it means my survival or yours, or the loss of my business or yours, well ......I think you know the answer.

Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? As long as someone is helping to line your pockets with moola, then he is a sacred cow here. It will only be the people that are on the block that you have no financial involvement or incentive with, either present or future, that will get an honest assessment of their business practices.

It is perfectly fair game for you (collectively) to jump all the hell over Gilbert Thompson because, heck, he is probably not going to have anything you want anyway. But if Jeff Barringer's actions are questioned, well hot damn, you just might want to stay on his good side, so you WILL NOT SAY A DARNED THING AGAINST HIM.

Until you can truthfully call a spade a spade, and be completely unbiased about your opinions about everyone, regardless of who it is, you make the BOI nothing more than a two bit soap opera, with all of you actors trying hard to get your best profile towards the camera.

BrianB

11-05-2003, 04:43 AM

*PLONK!*

KelliH

11-05-2003, 08:38 AM

Ok Mr. Jolly, I have no problem answering your questions. But first, let me ask you a few, and make a few observations, because I am not aware of some of these things you spek of. First off, you stated:

Jeffie knows the power he holds over peoples businesses.

No, Jeff holds no power over our business, I said that without kingsnake.com there would be no H.I.S.S. That is nothing less than the truth! I know it is true. Would you prefer that I get on here and LIE about that?

You yourself have stated that without kingsnake.com, your business would not exist. We can assume that others are in the same boat.

Yes, I did say that, as I stated above, it is the honest truth and I am not naive enough to think otherwise. Yes, there are probably many other business owners that feel the same but it is not my place to say so. I stated that because at the time (1998) when I became involved in H.I.S.S., kingnsnake was the only game in town, and yes, without that service I doubt very much we could have sold much AT THAT TIME.

It is well known that Jeffie will drop an account for no other reason than he disagrees with the person who has the account.

No, sorry, I don't know about that. Maybe I am not paying enough attention (it happens LOL) . Who has had their kingsnake account deleted for NO REASON at all?

We also know that it doesn't necessarily take a violation of his TOS for this to happen either.

Again, as I said above, please tell me specifically who you are speaking of because I am unaware of them.

Unless you want your business to fold, you have no other choice but to turn a blind eye to any wrong doing Jeffie may do in this business. To do otherwise, and post about it in public, runs you the risk of being dropped from kingsnake.com.

Whatever, if Jeff Barringer was doing something horrible or whatever I would have no problem talking about it or asking him about it. What terrible wrong has he done, anyway?

There is reasonable evidence, even on this site alone, that such actions have been done enough times to indicate a pattern of premeditated attempts to harm other people.

WHO??

For instance, is trying to destroy someones business by banning them from their primary avenue for their livelihood any less reprehensible than knowingly sending someone an animal infected with a lethal infectious disease?

That's like comparing cantelopes to apples or something! Hell yes, I feel that banning someone is MUCH less worse than sending someone a diseased animal! There are other avenues to advertise your animals, like Fauna Classifieds! I think you are stretching things just a bit with that one.

Kelli, under those circumstances, if such evidence was overwhelming in supporting my above statements, would you chose to ignore them in order to save your business?

SHOW me the evidence, please. I don't make decisions without all the facts at my disposal.

Thanks for reading.

Wilomn

11-05-2003, 10:25 AM

Yo Jolly, did I miss a thread somewhere that had someone saying what a great guy jeff is? Is there any particular reason that you ASSume that because YOU DON'T know what each and everyone of us think about him that we condone what he, and this is not proven as he has staff, may or may not have done?

If you wish to conitinue in this vien please post some facts or go back to your toe sucking and tell him, or whoever else needs to know, that it didn't work, no one rose to the bait. If you've got facts you'll see that many who have accounts over there will say, once proven, that he is in the wrong. But without those facts, not suppositions or ASSumptions or extrapolations, there is no reason for anyone to rise to the bait you are trolling with here.

Wes Pollock

Roger Jolly

11-05-2003, 03:02 PM

Wow!! Memories are so very short around here.

Kelli, according to your profile, you have been around here since February of 2002. Did you miss all of the threads and messages the webslave posted when he first got this site canned from kingsnake and then his own SERPENCO site? Did that somehow escape your notice? Here, let me help you out a bit.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16135

I've only been a casual observer here, but even I picked up on that one. Notice the parts about not only did Jeffie neglect to send a renewal for webslaves SERPENCO account, but no one can now even type in SERPENCO into any of the forums. But wait, it gets better! You can not even type in a whole list of domain names owned by the webslave. And why? Well, if you will take the time to read through all of the associated threads, this all came about simply because webslave refused to delete a thread on the BOI posted by Adam Block. There was no violation of any TOS on kingsnake.com. None. Nada. Zip. Nyet. If you don't define such an action as being spiteful and malicious, please, tell me what you would call it.

I have not read kingsnakes TOS policy recently, but even now, does it say you can get banned for something you do on your own site?

I believe there are other threads even going back into the very first original BOI where people got their accounts dropped simply because they disagreed with Jeffie and tried to engage him in a discussion about it. Sorry, but I just don't care to go dig those links up for you, but they are there for you to find yourself. Yes, maybe some of them did violate a minor TOS, but is that sufficient grounds for Jeffie to punish them by trying to destroy their business by cutting them off from what may likely be their major source of income?

Lordy, how many people got their posting account yanked on the forums simply because they expressed their opinions about certain other people getting banned? Yeah, that stuff is all gone from kingsnake, so sorry I don't have the proof to present to you, but quite a few of those incidents are readily available on this site as well. But I guess everyone's memories are on the short side about this issue as well, aren't they?

Maybe I do need to become a regular on this site. I can see where a lot of you need to have some things that are painfully obvious to me spelled out and explained to you all. I am sure I will make lots of friends here by doing that. LOL LOL

Oh, and Wes, please stop trying to prove your signature line with every post you make. You aren't a newbie here either, so maybe you should do something about that attention deficit you suffer. If you consider trying to make you take a long hard look at yourself as being trolling, then so be it. But as per your request, there, I have stated a fact. Ball is in your court.

By the way, just why hasn't the originator of this thread posted any further information about their particular issue? Wes, I didn't hear your claim of trolling expressed then, now did I? That didn't happen until I started hitting close to home with my remarks, I guess.

Oh, and for further consideration, how many other sites have been banned from even being mentioned on the forums on kingsnake? Sure, it's Jeffies right (I guess, I'm not certain if legal issues are involved), but are we talking about "rights" or "ethics" here? WHY were they banned? Does restraint of competition ring any bells around here? In my opinion, Jeffie wants to stay on top by stepping heavily on any site that he feels has the potential to become his competition. This is the sort of person you want to aid and abet with your money? Well, as long as he is earning you money, I guess that is OK, isn't it? I mean, business is business. Why rock the boat just over this little ethics issue Jeffie seems to suffer from? It's just not worth it, now is it?

Believe me, I do understand your perspective. Not sure I agree with it, though. And I do believe my reasons are plainly stated earlier in this thread.

Bob Clark

11-05-2003, 03:11 PM

Kingsnake.com is Jeff Barringer's business and he can run it as he sees fit. He is under no obligation to give this person an advertising account. I'm sure he doesn't know about Savannah's association with fellow Arizonan Jeffery Charles Miller but if it were my site I would not assist them in legitimizing themselves through my business. Miller is a known animal sumggler and thief. He's recently been released from prison after serving time for smuggling wildlife. Morph Specialties has recently been offering dwarf Burmese pythons imported from the wife of Anson Wong in Malaysia. Wong was convicted in the same smuggling scheme as Miller and is still serving time.

Miller is responsible for the 1994 theft of my albino ball python project and has been ordered by the court to pay $2.44 million in actual and punitive damages. He has made no effort to pay. Miller's accomplice is currently serving time and has been ordered to pay me $500/mo. for 10 years following his release. You can see more information on this on my website at www.bobclark.com

I'm fairly certain that Savannah is NOT a smuggler or thief but Miller can no longer legally import animals and because of his reputation cannot sell them either.

E2MacPets

11-05-2003, 03:29 PM

Interesting... there was just a good guy post on Savannah here a few days ago. Always upsetting to see the realities behind the scenes.

As for KS... I count one of the forum moderators as a friend and have spoken on many occassions with other mods so I am probably not the most impartial speaker. There are a lot of good and bad issues associated with both KS and with Fauna, but both serve purposes and I hope they both remain strong factors in the hobby.

Adam Block

11-05-2003, 03:30 PM

Bob, I'd just like to take a second to be a little more clear about my post earlier. I know nobody else will touch it with a ten foot pole and I'm sure many would like to hear your take in it. I would like to say you've been a very easy person to do business with. I've been happy with the animals I've gotten from you, you've always done what you said and shipped when you said.

My comments was only because among herp people it is well known you have some troubles with mites in your collection, the animals I got had them and many other people have commented on how their animals came with mites as well.

I know you don't produce every animal you sell and the issue with mites may just be hard to control because of that, it may even be under control now.

If somebody asked me about you I would tell them in a heartbeat to do business with you. I would have no issue with buying from you again, I would in the future just be 100% sure to treat for mites when I got the snakes and not trust that because you're a big breeder you collection is parasite free.

KelliH

11-05-2003, 03:41 PM

Mr. Jolly-

Yep, you are correct, I have been a member of this site since February of 2002, actually a lot longer than that as I was a member of the original BOI as well. And yes, I have read all the threads about kingsnake.com etc. and you know what? I feel that Jeff has a right not to renew Rich's account or anyone elses account. Just like Rich had a right to ban Neil Gubitz and Adam Block. I don't see Neil's Tampa Snake Pit banner rotating on this website anymore.

Kingsnake.com is Jeff's site, and I would bet that he does not want competing classifieds sites (such as Fauna Classifieds, wantapet,net etc.) or their owners advertising on his site. It is a business decision made by Jeff and that is his right to do so.

There is a ton of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that we as casual observers have no idea about. JeffB has a lot of balls he is juggling right now and I know for a fact that he had no earthly idea that kingsnake would become what it is today. It all boils down to the fact that he owns the site, it is his to do what he wants to with, if you don't like it then don't visit it. I happen to appreciate greatly what kingsnake offers us, and you know what? I post ads there, I post in the forums there and I do my best to follow the rules and respect the rules there. Do I always agree with them? Well, no, but I respect them.

Those are my feelings about this. And, like Mr. Jolly brought up before, I would like to know what the circumstances of the origininator of this thread being deprived of their posting rights were. Perhaps hearing from her again would shed some light here.
:(

Darin Chappell

11-05-2003, 04:38 PM

Mr. Jolly,

Perhaps you did not intend to paint all of us BOI members with such a broad brush, but I was one of the earlier ones banned from KS. I was banned, because I upset one of the moderators by pointing out some of the hypocritical things I saw going on there on KS at the time. In fact, more than one person was banned from KS simply for asking why I had been banned, so I think I have a good handle on how things were "progressing" over there. If you doubt my sincerity concerning my opposition to the past practices of Mr. Barringer, feel free to do a search on this site, or ask anyone who knows me, Rich Z. included.

Please refrain from assuming that everyone (or anyone, for that matter) falls into the neat little package you've created for us all in your mind. I think you'll find that there are nearly as many differing opinions regarding KS, JeffB, Rich, the BOI, and the interaction of all four, as there are individual members here.

I will resist the urge to once again go off about professed lurkers being smug about their lurking status, posting here only long enough to tell us how we're doing everything wrongly ...

Wilomn

11-05-2003, 05:59 PM

You know, it seems I missed another one of those meeting where a new Guidence Counselor was appointed. Unless I am way off here, very possible as I have been before and doubtlessly will be again but, is it not an OPTION to use ks? I'm pretty sure that you can still make money and sell your animals without it. In fact as a very small time breeder I sell as many without ks as I do with it. If I had more stuff for sale I'm sure that would be different but, for now it isn't.

jolly, why do you have such a nut for us here at Fauna? What makes you the know it all and dispencer of all knowledge on how and why and where we should conduct our business? Just who are YOU to tell me anything? You lurk, you troll, you spout, you make lots of noise and say little of value. I'm still looking for the one FACT you stated in your earlier post to me.

If you have an opinion to offer, please feel free to do so but, I've got a mom and if I'm doing something wrong she's really the only one I think has the right to TELL me what to do about it. You, loudmouth that you are, have no right to do so at all.

Do you produce anything? Do you sell anything? How do YOU get your business? Is that jeff's big toe garbling your words so bad that I am having a hard time making sense out of them? Just what is it that makes you SOOOOOOO much better than anyone else here? Who exactly appointed you to your exalted position? Does your head fit through normal size doors or do you have to get them widened to fit through?

Seems that you are shaping to be another flash in the pan.

Wes Pollock

Sasheena

11-05-2003, 06:20 PM

Well someone posted and said that there is a smorgasborg of different opinions about KS here on Fauna. I'd like to throw in mine.

I think that if it wasn't for Kingsnake.com I wouldn't have ever gotten into snakes. Now my hubby might feel, from time to time, that that would have been a GOOD thing, but overall, it's been a wonderful two years since I got my first snake. I have Kingsnake to thank for that, and I still go there, still post. :)

Having said that, I do have a few frustrations and a lower opinion of kingsnake than when I first started. I felt it was childish to [bleep] names out of existance on posts. I felt that until that situation was changed, I would never respect KS as a mature business based in the USA where freedom of speech is one of the biggest and held-most-dear freedoms we enjoy. But I do understand the RIGHT to choose what happens on YOUR site.

My biggest problem with KS is that if you use their email feature and send someone an email who has posted on a forum, you can't even mention serpenco or other things in the PRIVATE EMAIL. I feel that is going a bit too far. However, again, this is a private site, and he isn't obligated to follow the rules that I myself consider as important.

I came to Fauna, and to cornsnakes.com when I realized there was a ban. Now I have three great sites. I'm blessed!

WebSlave

11-05-2003, 06:53 PM

For obvious reasons, I am disinclined to have very much involvement with this thread. But in some respects it is much like a case of a deja vu slow motion train wreck I am viewing.

But I find it necessary to correct what may, perhaps, be a misunderstanding.

Just like Rich had a right to ban Neil Gubitz and Adam Block. I don't see Neil's Tampa Snake Pit banner rotating on this website anymore.

Kelli, both Neil and Adam were banned for what they did on THIS site. Nothing more, nothing less. What they do elsewhere is none of my business nor any grounds for my involvement or judging them as being welcomed members here. Matter of fact, even being a patently verifiable bad guy is not grounds to be banned from FaunaClassifieds. The only criteria I consider as being relevant is how they ACT while they are here.

My sites, on the other hand, were banned from ks for events that took place outside of JeffB's site and ONLY upon and within my own sites.

I am probably part of a small minority, but I do believe this is an important distinction.

FWIW

And I, also, would like to have Savannah post some details of what this thread was originally posted for. Not that it is required, but I do believe it would be courteous to do so.

BTW, I didn't know about that ban extending to emails within ks. I have to admit that this is right cute of JeffB.

KJUN

11-05-2003, 07:54 PM

> I am probably part of a small minority, but I do believe this is an important distinction.

I doubt if that is a small minority. At least, I hope most people agree with your distinction at least on some level. I agree with that statement.

> BTW, I didn't know about that ban extending to emails within ks.

The emails and posts probably just share the same database on censored words so that they get [bleeped] no matter what/where/how/when. It might be just the way the software is set up and not worth the trouble to re-write even if someone wanted to make that distinction. Let's not make things seem more intentionally evil than they already seem to some.

I wish the kingsnake classifieds were HEAVILY watched and ALL TOS infractions removed, too. I don't like seeing people do things I don't because I try to follow the rules. I understand the limits of staff time, though. Some people obviously don't. Still upsets me, though. :)

All said and done, just remember that before kingsnake.com, all we had was ACME Pets....lol. Thank all goodness for the good things that Jeff has done.

E2MacPets

11-05-2003, 08:22 PM

In order to see KS classifieds policed better, you need to police it yourself. Report posts, they will be removed if they violate the TOS. I assure you.

WebSlave

11-05-2003, 08:50 PM

The emails and posts probably just share the same database on censored words so that they get [bleeped] no matter what/where/how/when. It might be just the way the software is set up and not worth the trouble to re-write even if someone wanted to make that distinction. Let's not make things seem more intentionally evil than they already seem to some.

Well I have to admit that I was curious about this. So I sent myself an email through this system including some words I know are censored here. All came through in the clear. I would have been surprised had it been otherwise.

Censorsing text that is displayed publicly in a forum is pretty consistent with a design of a message board. After all, there are really some words that are unlikely to be used except in very negative connotations, which most people running a message board would tend to want to filter out from public view if a poster got a bit carried away with their language.

Censoring text sent to someone privately through email is surprising to me, to say the least. Personally, I fail to see where it is any business of the person running the site what sort of language one person may use in a private message to another. But not being one to typically use such words in daily conversation via email, I really can't say if this is normal procedure or not in any other message board system.

Sasheena

11-05-2003, 11:18 PM

Just sent myself an email too.....

My original email (just silly) said:

did you know that serpenco carry these?
did you know that faunaclassifieds has these?
Did you know that rich zuchowski is my friend?
Did you know that cornsnakes.com is one of my sites?
Did you know faunaauction.com is another site?

what I received in my email box:

did you know that [bleep] carry these?
did you know that [bleep] has these?
Did you know that rich zuchowski is my friend?
Did you know that [bleep] is one of my sites?
Did you know [bleep].com is another site?

I'm sure it's just because of the software, and isn't in itself a deliberate attack on private emails, however it is still a pretty sad statement.

Jon Brant

11-05-2003, 11:25 PM

To associate this young lady with Jeffrey Miller's indescretions, when she would have been a mere child at the time, is ludicrous. She may live in the same state and may be acquaintances with that person, but that doesn't give anyone the right to make claims without facts, no matter who they are!

My personal opinion is that jealousy and greed is the reason behind accounts being pulled, as well as, friend's scratching friend's backs.

This young lady has obviously worked hard for her legitimate connections and some may not like it.

When I went back and re-read Savannah's original post, it never mentioned her account had been cancelled, so how is it you seem to know?

Sincerely,

Jon Brant

E2MacPets

11-05-2003, 11:43 PM

I would really like to see a full account of every side to this story. It is a very interesting revelation if accurate, but it sure does seem to be taking way to much poetic license in its guilt by association accusations.

However it also seems we have two new posters: one who has only posted to post positively about Savannah and one who has registered and posted for the sole purpose of implying extremely negative associations about her.

Neither holds much water regardless of notariety, without some concrete evidence.

gila7150

11-05-2003, 11:50 PM

message sent to myself through the Kingsnake forums...
Check out fieldherpers.com

message I received
Check out [bleep]

Bob Clark

11-06-2003, 12:43 AM

Her age at the time of the theft is not relevant. I'm sure she was not involved. Her age now might imply gullibility or naivete'. This might explain or even excuse her actions. It does not change the facts.

KelliH

11-06-2003, 12:54 AM

Kelli, both Neil and Adam were banned for what they did on THIS site. Nothing more, nothing less. What they do elsewhere is none of my business nor any grounds for my involvement or judging them as being welcomed members here. Matter of fact, even being a patently verifiable bad guy is not grounds to be banned from FaunaClassifieds. The only criteria I consider as being relevant is how they ACT while they are here.

Rich, of course you are completely right and I absolutely agree with you here. In retrospect I probably should not have compared your site and kingsnake, they are so different. What I was getting at is that your site (faunaclassifieds.com) belongs to you and you can ban whomever you chose. By the same token, kingsnake belongs to Jeff and he can ban whomever he sees fit to ban. There is a big difference though, and I agree with what you said about the reasons behind Neil and Adam being banned, and I am not questioning your reasons behind doing such.

Now, is Savannah ever going to come back here and explain why or why not she was denied posting rights etc.?? After all, she is the one that started this thread.:o

WebSlave

11-06-2003, 01:25 AM

As far as testing the [bleep]-o-matic engine of ks, here's a test I tried quite a while ago:

Posted by: XXXXX at Thu Jun 5 00:04:14 2003
Subject: Has the name "serpenco" really been banned from this site?
Message:

Or how about the names:

Zuchowski
ssnakess
faunaclassifieds
BOI
Board of Inquiry
faunaauction
faunanet
faunatopsites
cornsnakes.com
herpchat
kingsnakes.com
herpcentral.com

BoardOfInquiry.com
FaunaArt.com
FaunaBooks.com
FaunaCentral.com
FaunaChat.com
FaunaClassifieds.com
FaunaWantAds.com
FaunaWare.com
FaunaWear.com
HerpArt.com
HerpCentral.com
HerpCity.com
HerpConnection.com
HerpDeals.com
HerpDepot.com
HerpDirectory.com
HerpDomain.com
HerpetaFauna.com
HerpInfo.com
HerpLine.com
HerpLinks.com
HerpLinks.net
HerpMania.com
HerpMarket.com
HerpMarketPlace.com
HerpNet.com
HerpSale.com
HerpSales.com
HerpSeller.com
HerpsNow.com
HerpSource.com
HerpsPlus.com
HerpStore.com
HerpTalk.com
HerpWantAds.com
HerpWare.com
HerpWareHouse.com
HerpWear.com
HerpWeb.com

And here's the results after I clicked the PREVIEW button:

Posted by: XXXXX E-mail: XXXXX@hotmail.com * won't be shown
Date: Thu Jun 5 00:05:11 2003 IP: 130.94.107.163 * won't be shown
Subject: Has the name "[bleep]" really been banned from this site?
Message:
Or how about the names:

Zuchowski
[bleep]
[bleep]
BOI
Board of Inquiry
[bleep]
[bleep]
faunatopsites
[bleep]
herpchat
[bleep]
[bleep].com

[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep].com
[bleep].com
[bleep].com
[bleep].com
[bleep].com
[bleep]
[bleep].com
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]
[bleep]

This is just a FYI so no one has to do any testing on those above listed domain names. I wouldn't want you to get banned in the process of testing.

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 02:27 AM

In order to see KS classifieds policed better, you need to police it yourself. Report posts, they will be removed if they violate the TOS. I assure you.

Um, no, this would not be correct. I had a fairly good relationship with that guy that was dealing with this stuff for Jeff, can't remember his name but anyway.

I was getting ticked about them not following their own TOS, when I would mention a list of ads that were in violation to the first guy the dealt with removing them it was fixed.

I think he left KS and so I would send them to Jeff, no result!

For that matter, Tracy Barker had said some pretty childish things about a few stupid posts in the ball python classifieds. I felt it was just an all together childish thing to make the comment there so I sent Jeff the link and NOTHING was removed! When I was kicked off, I sent Jeffers an email with no less then 5 ads doing the same thing I was, not the exact same thing but breaking the same TOS rule and NOTHING!

E2MacPets

11-06-2003, 07:27 AM

Why are you sending TOS violations to the site owner and not the site abuse moderators?

robin d.

11-06-2003, 08:03 AM

hey ricch but you can post like this..........

w
w
w
.
f
a
u
n
a
c
l
a
s
s
i
f
i
e
d
s
.
c
o
m

what a pain in the bum but hey it worked and i got the point across to the others poster LOL

:D

Suncoast Herpetological

11-06-2003, 08:10 AM

Adam Block wrote:

"Bob Clarks collection of mites that have a snake infestation."

Later in this same thread Adam wrote

"I've been happy with the animals I've gotten from you (Bob Clark)"

and

"If somebody asked me about you I would tell them in a heartbeat to do business with you. I would have no issue with buying from you again"

Best job of back peddling I have ever seen Adam. Must have been difficult peddling that hard with both feet in your mouth.

evansnakes

11-06-2003, 08:55 AM

There is one problem with kingsnake.com, Jeff Berringer. Not only does Jeff still owe me money from over a year ago but he will not return my phone calls and emails. My account as well as my hosting and web services were deleted because I dared to question Jeff for sending me a rude email. The guy is a little Napolean complex incarnate, although I do not believe that Napolean was such a pant load.

Cheryl Marchek AKA JM

11-06-2003, 10:23 AM

Correct me if I’m wrong~ and don’t worry, I have no doubt I will be corrected (right or wrong) I’m most likely to be sorry I pointed this out………..But I suspect y’all are arguing with and amongst yourself with either a Troll, or a Hypocrite, or more likely a Hypocritical Troll.

No offense intended to Mr. Jolly Rancher………..um, sorry, that’s Roger Jolly right……..well, I guess I made two errors right up front………I rather hope he is offended by the Hypocritical Troll comment………..I am somewhat offended by some of the comments he made about the posters here.

At any rate~ The Hypocrite part. On page one Mr. Jolly immediately begins berating the members of this site for watching KS and Mr. Barringer do all of these heinous crimes against nature and the universe………and according to Mr. Jolly: “there was barely a ripple of outrage from the masses here” (Fauna) There is too much of the same thing basically to repost it all here………..just return to page one and have a look at his first post in this thread.

Then……after several posts back and forth on what point he thinks he is trying to be making………...on page three he berates “Kelli” (HISS) because “Memories are so very short around here”. Then he reminds her of ALL the times people here at Fauna (that would be the masses) were angry and participated in threads on the subject (would those be waves? If not waves, at least a ripple of outrage in all these threads and messages)

“Did you miss all of the threads and messages the webslave posted when he first got this site canned from kingsnake and then his own SERPENCO site? Did that somehow escape your notice? Here, let me help you out a bit.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...&threadid=16135”

That’s on the bottom of page three. Again, there is more…………….but I’m just a “casual observer”. Maybe Mr. Jolly Rancher should be too. I think there may be a valid and somewhat caustic point to some of his ranting, but Mr. Jolly lost grip of his point long about the same time he started worrying about his lower intestines in public.

Bob Clark

11-06-2003, 12:26 PM

Jon, You call convictions on smuggling charges and the theft of my albino ball python project indescretions? I think its far more serious than that! Savannah has not "obviously worked hard for her legitimate connections"!

BTW, she's been online yesterday afternoon and all last night and she's has plenty of opportunity to respond.

KelliH

11-06-2003, 12:34 PM

Savannah, what gives? Why start something you aren't willing to finish? We're waiting...:(

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 01:04 PM

John Schmitt, get a grip!

What would be my reason for this back peddling you say I'm doing.

I'm talking about a good breeders reputation, something that while you may take lightly I do not!

Bob is an excellent person to do business with, one of the smoothest transactions I've ever had. Just seems that with so many two faced people in this business nobody has had what it takes to tell Bob they were talking about his mite issue behind his back. I didn't know that was the case and I should have been more of an adult and spoke directly with him.

When the NY post runs a retraction article do you call that a nice job of back peddling too or just correcting something that shouldn't have been said in public?

How do people like you make it through life looking at everything from the darkest possible side? I mean, come on, does everything have to have such sinister roots? Leave no room for people to be good when you live in a world like that, something I will never allow myself to do.

LLaBGNik

11-06-2003, 01:45 PM

Its AMAZING what people will do to ruin someone's business just because they wont be able to put their name behind something new.

If a person happens to know someone that at one time did something bad/wrong,That is by no means a fair reason to go out of your way to destroy them just for knowing that person...If that is even the case...........

Not sure why things can't be resolved in this business by means of acting like civil people and not children,Making all the accusations and what not when the proof isnt there ..Its just wrong.

A person that steals a snake or a person that goes out of their way to make false accusations to try and ruin someones business ..I SEE NO DIFFERENCE!

Suncoast Herpetological

11-06-2003, 01:55 PM

Adam

Since this particular issue is somewhat off of the main topic at hand I will post this reply and be done with you.

I believe your question was:

"What would be my reason for this back peddling you say I'm doing."

Choose one:

1.) You shot your mouth off and made a blatantly disparaging
remark against one of the hallmarks in the business and it never occurred to you that he might acyually read them.

2.) You posted the statement before your brain kicked in and you realized it was a stupid thing to do.

3.) You are a pathalogical liar

4.) You have a rather interesting complex that makes you think youy are smarter than the rest of the members on this board and can squirm your way out of things you spout by lamely attempting to twist them around on the person who points them out

Any combination of the above choices will fit.

Incidentally, a retraction is printed by a newspaper when they realize the information they printed originally is wrong. Your statement, not my post, was the only thing posted that could have been damaging to that good breeder's reputation.

While it is amusing to watch you try to squirm out from under your inane ramblings now that you realize the party you slandered has read them, I do have better things to do.

Have fun with this post too Adam. Maybe you can now shift from back peddling to tap dancing your way around your ill stated comments

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 02:10 PM

My satement was that Bob has a mites issue! I've gotten them and many other have gotten or seen them on snakes of Bob's.

against one of the hallmarks in the business

So you're saying the big people in this business can do no wrong? Because if I'm not mistaken the issue in this thread is people being to much of a coward to say anything about a "hallmarks".

Back peddeling would be saying Bob sucked then making the statements I made to get out of it.

In this case you must not have read well enough to understand I was making sure nobody confused the mites issue with Bob being a bad guy. Mites are little bugs, if you feel the "hallmarks" snakes are too good to get mites then I'm affraid it's you that needs to open your eyes.

My comment was not off post, I was only pointing out how many people know Bob has them and the fact that it's NEVER SAID!

Half the trouble in this hobby is the God complex small time hobbiest seem to put on the large breeders shoulders.

Hey, what about Rainwater, he still a "hallmark" too or would he be an ex-hallmark? The BOI is here to help keep small time rip off artist not get any bigger and "hallmarks" gone rouge like Rainwater and Jeff B. get stopped before too much damage is done.

Hues1

11-06-2003, 02:21 PM

Its AMAZING what people will do to ruin someone's business just because they wont be able to put their name behind something new.

I believe what Bob is refering to is that Savannah might possibly be a front for Jeremy Miller.

I would have to believe that because Jeremy Miller was arrested, tried, and convicted not only for stealing Bob's Albino Ball Python Project....but also for SMUGGLING reptiles in and out of the US, part of his "rehabilitation" would include not having anything at all to do with the Reptile trade.

I dont know Jeremy Miller...nor do I really care to, but ask yourself how Savannah came to have all these high end connections and contacts in the reptile community...for someone who's just getting started or at least hasnt been in the business for too long ? Maybe what Bob is saying does have some Merit ??? Maybe Savannah is a front for Jeremy Miller ???

A person that steals a snake or a person that goes out of their way to make false accusations to try and ruin someones business ..I SEE NO DIFFERENCE!

The difference is the person who stole those snakes got caught red handed...the person who is making the "accusations" does it with his own reputation on the line.....if you ask me, I'd be more apt to believe the guy who has his reputation on the line versus the guy who got caught red handed and....convicted.

Just so you know.....My opinion above was based on what I have read and seen in the news in regards to operation "chameleon" and how Mr. Miller was caught, tried, and convicted of smuggling....I dont know Bob personally and spoke to him one time at the Chicago show last year where I purchased a pair of 100% het. Albinos from him....other than that, everything I know of him is also based on what I have seen, read, and have heard through the grapevine.

With all that said, the subject of the matter at hand is WHY Savannah got booted off of KS. So....Savannah, want to clue us in? do you believe you got booted because there's a conspiracy by Jeff B. and Bob Clark ....as Jon is implying? or maybe it was something as simple as a minor violation to Jeff B.'s TOS ? or maybe Jeff B. was having a bad day and needed to pick on someone ?

Why dont you please tell us !

LLaBGNik

11-06-2003, 02:50 PM

My point is..He is making all these accusations without any proof at all.

Knowing a thief and being a FRONT FOR A THIEF...thats 2 different ballparks here people,And to accuse someone of being a front is a HUGE thing in my book..You just dont do that unless you HAVE THE PROOF.

BOB CLARK has mentioned that Savannah knows miller...your point is?

In my lifetime i have MET bad people..there is a HUGE difference in knowing someone and being a FRONT for someone.

Savannah will be posting here soon people,She is gathering all the info and proof to try and put a end to this..give her some time.Someone is trying to ruin her business,She just wants to gather all the proof to end this.

Just because you have a name for yourself doesnt mean that you cant ever make mistakes,I can understand why bob wouldnt want miller to make money or to have people be a front for him...But the fact of the matter is he is making accusations that i know for a fact are not true.

I could go on and on but i will leave it for Savannah

I will end with..Making threats and causing a innocent girl to cry is just wrong,When her innocence is proven,I hope you man up and apologize.

Wilomn

11-06-2003, 02:54 PM

Randy, if you've got some proof then post it. It's been said here time and time again, generally by a "friend" of the person in question, that said person "is getting all the facts together and to be patient". Been there, done that.

How long do you suppose it will take her to get this proof together? If she's got it, even in part, have her post it. Then go from there.

If Bob is wrong then prove it. If you do you'll see the same voices asking him for facts that are now asking them of you.

Wes Pollock

Darin Chappell

11-06-2003, 02:59 PM

Randy,

I do not know you at all. I have no reason to doubt anything you are saying. However, you need to understand that it is a fairly common thing for someone's credibility to be questioned here, and when that happens for some, immediately thereafter, another person, who has never posted here before, starts ardently posting in that offended person's favor.

Does that mean that the offended person is in the wrong? No. Does it mean that the new poster is lying? Certainly not. Does it imply that the new poster may not be as unbiased as some of us would like for a "witness" to be? Sure it does.

If Savannah has evidence to show that she has been unfairly booted from KS, she should show it here. After all, that is what the thread was originally created to address, was it not? If you all want to get into a spitting match concerning who is lying about whom, perhaps another thread should be started. But, either way, YOU need to pause for a moment and consider the credibility gap, which is created when a friend of Savannah's posts here for the very first time in defense of her. It looks less than believable for those who are on the outside of all this, trying to decide who is telling the truth about whom.

Just a couple of thoughts for you to mull over . . .

LLaBGNik

11-06-2003, 03:35 PM

nah..I completely understand what your all saying

I do know savannah

And i could just be making everything up like you all say

I don't post that much on forums at all..

I just feel bad sitting back and watching it all happen to her..She is a really nice person and just wants to be fair.

Ive seen some of the proof of her innocence,thats why i am having a hard time sitting back and saying nothing heh.

She will post soon.

Its none of my business i just hate to see bad things happen to good people.

Even people with big names and reputations can make mistakes..thats all i am saying

being a front for a criminal is big thing to accuse someone of,I wouldnt personally accuse someone of something so severe unless i had rock solid proof.Yes i could be lying but i personally know She is not doing so...Thats why this all blows me away..its NOT TRUE!

Darin Chappell

11-06-2003, 04:04 PM

Randy,

I wasn't trying to imply that you were making it all up, or that you were fabricating anything at all, for that matter. I'm sorry if you took my post that way. I simply wanted you to understand why some here might want to take your protestations with a grain of salt for now.

If Savannah is truly going to post about her experiences with KS, I am sure it will all turn out well for her. If she is going to post her proff against what else has been suggested about her here, I am certain that will work out for her, as well.

Josh Burm Guy

11-06-2003, 04:24 PM

I don't know Savannah personally. But has anyone ever heard of the term "Innocent until proven guilty" before? These insinuations are UTTERLY ABSURD that she has anything to do with Miller on a business level without any form of PROOF! I could live next to Jeffrey Dahmer and be his friend for 10 years but that doesn't make me a murderous cannibal. Post proof of any wrong doing Bob. Otherwise this is an obvious attempt by you to smear the name of someone that has something that you want. Plain and simple. I have seen these tactics before.

Furthermore Bob,.. how is it that you knew about her classified account being terminated when it wasn't mentioned here first? You never answered this question. I know I am VERY curious.

WebSlave

11-06-2003, 04:45 PM

I think Savannah needs to at least post the details of what happened, not necessarily with any speculation on the reasons, nor accusations of the causes.

Did you have an account at ks that got cancelled, or did you apply for one and have it refused? If it was cancelled or refused, what reason were you given for that?

Lord knows that everyone will come to their own conclusions anyway until someone with some actual facts will post them here.

Further, enough of the side sniping in this thread. If you have something to say about anyone other than Savannah or ks (JeffB), then create your own thread and let it wail in there. Anyone who may be considered as a contributing factor in Savannah's situation with ks is fair game for discussion here, but that is it.

Specifically, this thread has nothing at all to do with mites, unless one of the two people mentioned above happen to be infested with them and is a contributing factor in what initiated this thread being posted.

TJEvans

11-06-2003, 05:00 PM

Here's one thing I've noticed from this thead regarding Savanah

Bob Clark comes here saying that Savanah may be invloved with this Jeff Miller character. I don't know the exact history in his case although I've read his homepage about it.

Regardless. Jeff Miller did something bad to BOB CLARK. What grounds does that give to JEFF BARRINGER to revoke Savanah's account. I'm sorry, but if there were a Wal-Mart in a mall, and a K-mart right on the other side, would the Mall management evict K-mart because their affiliated with Martha Stewart?

This is just plain playing favorites. So Jeff has the right to revoke somebody of their classified account after they paid for it, because you might be affiliated with a known criminal, that did somethin to ANOTHER vendor on your site? This just doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry. This just makes me a little sick, that Bob can use whatever power he has (well earned mind you) to this extent.

If it's proven that Savanah is realy a "front" for whatever scheme it is that Jeff Miller is dreaming up, then That is a banishable offense, but until then, speculation, and the opinion of a reptile powerhouse shouldn't be the means for such action.

Am I the only one seeing this, or am I just the only one the will say it?

Jeff has shown some true character if this is the only reason she was revoked her account........

Darin Chappell

11-06-2003, 05:07 PM

"if this is the only reason she was revoked her account"

I hadn't realized that any reason had been given as of yet. If the above is what happened, and she was banned before the eividences were set forth, that would be really upsetting.

However, not even Savannah has made such a statement, so I guess we'll just have to wait on her. Until then, it's all just speculation.

Josh Burm Guy

11-06-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by TJEvans
Here's one thing I've noticed from this thead regarding Savanah

Bob Clark comes here saying that Savanah may be invloved with this Jeff Miller character. I don't know the exact history in his case although I've read his homepage about it.

Regardless. Jeff Miller did something bad to BOB CLARK. What grounds does that give to JEFF BARRINGER to revoke Savanah's account.

This is just plain playing favorites. So Jeff has the right to revoke somebody of their classified account after they paid for it, because you might be affiliated with a known criminal, that did somethin to ANOTHER vendor on your site? This just doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry. This just makes me a little sick, that Bob can use whatever power he has (well earned mind you) to this extent.

If it's proven that Savanah is realy a "front" for whatever scheme it is that Jeff Miller is dreaming up, then That is a banishable offense, but until then, speculation, and the opinion of a reptile powerhouse shouldn't be the means for such action.

Am I the only one seeing this, or am I just the only one the will say it?

Jeff has shown some true character if this is the only reason she was revoked her account........

You are NOT the only one that sees this. It's bloody obvious. But what is even more obvious is the motive. The connection to Miller is only to slander her name. The real motive behind all this is because she has something that Bob doesn't (the dwarf burms) and this is just about making sure she can't market them. It's downright contemptable. Now,... am I the only one seeing this?

MikeWilbanks

11-06-2003, 05:12 PM

[i]What grounds does that give to JEFF BARRINGER to revoke Savanah's account. [/B]

KS is a Jeff's private business. He does not need a reason to deny an account to anyone. He can deny service for any reason that he sees fit. He doesn't need grounds.

Bob Clark

11-06-2003, 05:13 PM

I have no idea if her account was terminated. Her post implies that it was. Maybe she should clear this up for us.

I know that Jeff Miller ships snakes via Delta under the name of Morph Specialties. Savannah told me that she doesn't even know who Miller is. At one time she posted regularly on my own forum. Miller's picture and an article have been featured on the opening page. Its obvious to me that she lied.

How does a little girl in Buckeye, AZ meet the world's most notorious animal smuggler anyway? Miller, Beau Lewis and Anson Wong were caught and convicted of crimes in the USFWS sting, Operation Chameleon. Anson's wife is the supplier to Savannah Sernas.

I'm sure as soon as Savannah gets her facts together she'll have something to say and I look forward to hearing from her on this forum.

I sent Savannah two polite emails about this. She's told me that she doesn't know Miller. A few days later I was served with a court order to stop contacting her.

If Savannah's want's to be a legitimate member of this community she could easily have cleared this up last week. Instead she sent me a restraining order!

Hues1

11-06-2003, 05:21 PM

The connection to Miller is only to slander her name. The real motive behind all this is because she has something that Bob doesn't (the dwarf burms) and this is just about making sure she can't market them

Isnt this above statement also pure speculation ? or do you know something we dont know ?

Darin Chappell

11-06-2003, 05:23 PM

"You are NOT the only one that sees this. It's bloody obvious. But what is even more obvious is the motive. The connection to Miller is only to slander her name. The real motive behind all this is because she has something that Bob doesn't (the dwarf burms) and this is just about making sure she can't market them. It's downright contemptable. Now,... am I the only one seeing this?"

So, Josh . . .

I guess that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing only applies to Savannah???

Let's just wait to see what Savannah says about her troubles with KS (you know, the purpose for this thread???), and THEN try to determine who owes whom an appology.

For everything else, I would suggest that another thread be established. That way, the two issues are not confused more than they already are.

JungleHabitats

11-06-2003, 05:28 PM

How does a little girl in Buckeye, AZ meet the world's most notorious animal smuggler anyway? Miller, Beau Lewis and Anson Wong were caught and convicted of crimes in the USFWS sting, Operation Chameleon
ok i understand this part of your statement

Anson's wife is the supplier to Savannah Sernas.
ok now with this i know you had stated that thisWong fella owes you reimbursements for his part in the crime against you . But regardless of who her supplier is do you have any proof that anything she is importing and there fore supplying the thread starter "savahana" is illeagal#1 and if she is importing animals for her would this not mean that you wouldbe entilted to $ made from her supplying this person with animals? and if what she is importing / supplying to savahana is leagal how does that make savahana abad person?

I can understand with what you have done for the herp community Bob how you would want to "protect" your interests in it. But if you have no true proof that she has done nothing wrong IE: recieving illeagal animals etc other then knowing someone who is a theif then i would say i to would have probably sent you papers my self under the intent that you could be possibly maliciously trying to stop her buisness. now i will fully state here & now i have no more clues then what have been laid out here so there for this is why i am asking you those questions , if i missed something in this thread please excuse me for doing so ...
thanks for any input you have there Mr Clark.

WebSlave

11-06-2003, 05:28 PM

I think the topic of "WHY" someone gets banned from ks was kind of hinted at earlier in this thread, and maybe it is actually where the focus of this thread will eventually be centered.

Sure, as mostly everyone seems to feel, JeffB can ban anyone he wants to from HIS site, but in his acting as an influential business entity, and in many cases being an integral part to many other people's businesses, it is a bit discomforting to see evidence that such bannings are not entirely based on any violations that have anything at all to do with ks's internal TOS.

As a business, that certainly would not give me a warm fuzzy feeling being in that position. IMHO.

Josh Burm Guy

11-06-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Bob Clark
I have no idea if her account was terminated. Her post implies that it was. Maybe she should clear this up for us.

I know that Jeff Miller ships snakes via Delta under the name of Morph Specialties. Savannah told me that she doesn't even know who Miller is. At one time she posted regularly on my own forum. Miller's picture and an article have been featured on the opening page. Its obvious to me that she lied.

How long have you known that Savannah has known Miller? How many months? Why didn't you immediately expose this fact right away? Didn't you attempt to intimidate her into giving you the dwarf burms first and threaten to use her association with Miller to ruin her if she didn't "play ball"?

I sent Savannah two polite emails about this. She's told me that she doesn't know Miller. A few days later I was served with a court order to stop contacting her.

If Savannah's want's to be a legitimate member of this community she could easily have cleared this up last week. Instead she sent me a restraining order!

Nobody takes the time to file a restraining order because someone sends "two polite emails". This really makes me wonder. Maybe she should post the email contents and we can see how polite they are.

Josh Burm Guy

11-06-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Bob Clark
I have no idea if her account was terminated. Her post implies that it was. Maybe she should clear this up for us.

I know that Jeff Miller ships snakes via Delta under the name of Morph Specialties. Savannah told me that she doesn't even know who Miller is. At one time she posted regularly on my own forum. Miller's picture and an article have been featured on the opening page. Its obvious to me that she lied.

I'm sure as soon as Savannah gets her facts together she'll have something to say and I look forward to hearing from her on this forum.

I sent Savannah two polite emails about this. She's told me that she doesn't know Miller. A few days later I was served with a court order to stop contacting her.

If Savannah's want's to be a legitimate member of this community she could easily have cleared this up last week. Instead she sent me a restraining order!

How long have you known that Savannah has known Miller? How many months? Why didn't you immediately expose this fact right away? Didn't you attempt to intimidate her into giving you the dwarf burms first and threaten to use her association with Miller to ruin her if she didn't "play ball"?

Nobody takes the time to file a restraining order because someone sends "two polite emails". This really makes me wonder. Maybe she should post the email contents and we can see how polite they are.

Savannah

11-06-2003, 06:07 PM

First off- I would like to say: What is between Jeff Miller and Bob Clark is between them not me, it’s unfair to try and ruin me and my business when the only thing proven is I know someone, period.

Ok, I had to check with the court before I posted here. Bob didn’t mention that he can’t contact me anymore because he harassed and threatened me over and over. The judge read all the emails from Bob and granted an Injunction of Harassment. (He just did actually) More on that later. This is going to be a very long post. I wasn’t going to bring this to the public, but since Bob did, I must tell the truth. I’m tired of being bullied, threatened and harassed. It will stop!

1) I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it. Kelli said Jeff doesn’t get involved in the day to day stuff and probably didn’t even know about this. Hmm. I will show what I think happened to my account, this is the only thing I can’t prove, but it’s obvious. I never gave this information out but Bob seems to know a little too much about it. Plus he came here and registered just to talk about me.

2) So Bob is saying a business isn’t legitimate unless a business advertises on kingsnake? I don’t have to “legitimize” my business, it is legit, in-fact it is a corporation. Plus, I have had an advertising account for several months with no problems until 2 days after Bobs email to me saying “Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark”. This shows his intent to purposely harm my business.

The facts are: My account was canceled and the email came from Jeff Barringer directly on a Saturday If I remember right. There was no reason given and I emailed him several times and Barringer won’t email me back to give a reason.

Now.. It’s obvious this is just an attempt at assassination. Bob threatened he would do this and now he has, its no surprise. Bob forgot to mention the restraining order didn’t he? I will show everything, not that I have to, a judge already looked at the emails and agreed it was harassment. I will prove everything I say. On the other hand, Bob shows no proof. And in fact, he won’t say what he is insinuating. Why? Because it’s a lie and he can be sued. So he will slip by the courts reach by hinting at stuff rather than openly saying it. As it stands, all Bob has said is: I know a guy!! He hasn’t said I rip people off, he hasn’t said I have done anything wrong. All he can do is say, I know Jeff Miller. I do and it’s funny because it’s not a secret. The only person I denied it to was Bob, I thought it would keep me from being harassed, and, well I was wrong! Geez, imagine if I told Bob I knew Miller. Would it have been 10 times worse?

Sure, there are some truths to what Bob says and they aren’t secrets. I do know Mrs. Wong. I do not know her husband Anson Wong, when he was arrested in 1998, I was 13, I think. Sure, I know Jeff, but that is it. He helps me out with some animals once in a while. He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn’t get to the airport. There is nothing illegal about that. In-fact, you getting this info from delta is illegal. Now Bob has broken the law 2 times. He doesn’t own any of my animals. Actually, Morph Specialties, Inc. does and I’m the president.

This is nothing more than a petty attempt to ruin me because I am competition. I will show emails of how Bob tried very hard to buy the Dwarf Burms from Asia and when they wouldn’t sell to him he started harassing me. Bob tried to get my supplier to go behind my back; you will see all this in the actual emails I post.

For those that don’t know. I have the only Dwarf Burms in captivity. I bought the entire group before anyone here even knew they were found. I got lucky! These are very small and females breed at 5 ½’. Males at 3-3 ½’. I have eggs incubating. The eggs are Ball Python size. Please see my webpage for more info on the burms and about the harassment from Bob. www.morphspecialties.com/index1.html
I haven’t posted all the info here, but please feel free to read the rest, smaller details on my website.

This is all politics. Bob knows the future of Burms will now lean towards smaller animals of more manageable sizes and more economical feeding cost. There is already a solid foundation for these with a plethora of color and pattern morphs to breed into them. There are so many reasons why these will become popular.
Another is the city and state laws restricting larger snakes.

Here is all the emails from Bob in order. Then following will be the emails from Jeff Barringer and emails from the Asian supplier to Bob, showing how Bob was trying to buy these and trying to get them to go behind my back. There weren’t just emails. After the 5th email, I called Bob and he threatened to come and take the snakes from me. And not nicely. He also yelled and screamed at me until I got very upset and was in tears. I had to just get off the phone. He asked me to call him and I did. I wouldn’t call him back because of how I was treated, who wants to be yelled at? Plus even before he emailed me he told a person we both know that because I’m in the same state as miller and deal with this connection in Asia, they must be Miller’s. NO PROOF AT ALL. No matter how many times Bob says it or insinuates it, it won’t make it true. Where are the facts, where is the proof. There is none, its all made up in Bob’s head. Yes, I’m sure some will believe him because he is Bob and that’s sad. I have shown enough proof for the court system while Bob has showed none.

When reading these, remember, I am the owner of these snakes, not Miller, so in-fact when Bob says he wont allow Miller to profit from these, he really means, he wont allow me to profit. This is exactly what he is trying to do.

Bob is also right; I’m not a smuggler or a thief. Me having these animals must really be bugging the [bleep] out of Bob. He can’t get them so he comes here to let the world know I know Miller. Is that it? From a 50 year old man too. Bob was also served at home on a Sunday, that wasn’t my doing, was the serving company, hope it didn’t affect his wife and 3 kids. There is a difference, I don’t want to do harm or harass, I want to be left alone and the lies to stop.

This is more than enough evidence to show what is really going on here. Due to legal matters that are going to be filed, I doubt I will post anymore on this topic.

I do own these animals. I do know miller, I do know Mrs. Wong. I’ve never done anything, I explained how I got my animals. I’m not a front to Miller, bob will never believe it because that’s what he believes. But there isno proof what so ever as to what Bob is saying. AT ALL. And I don’t know the “most notorious animal smuggler, Ive never even talked to him. Im assuming he means Anson Wong.

Thank you all,
Savannah Sernas

(I wasn’t able to find a few of the emails, especially from me to him. But to be fair I will tell you what they said in general. I told Bob I didn’t know Jeff Miller as I said and explained above. I will keep looking for the saved file and when I find it, I will post it. This was a lot of info I’ve been trying to compile over the last day, I will get the rest of it. You can then see where my emails pick up.)
First email from Bob:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: morphspecialties@yahoo.com
Subject: dwarf Burmese
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:45:46 -0500

Hi,
I'm interested in the dwarf Burmese. You have eggs incubating? When will they hatch? Could I visit you and see the animals? Bob

Bob’s 2 email:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:07:55 -0500

Savannah,
I have never slandered you or posted anything about you ever, anywhere. Do you know that Jeff Miller ships under your name? Bob

Bob’s 3 email:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:10:29 -0500

Savannah,
Maybe it would be easier it we talk on the phone. What's your number? You can call me at 800234-5910 if you like. BOb

Bob’s 4 email

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:27:31 -0500

Again, I've never said anything against you. Let's talk on the phone. I've got some things to discuss. Can you call me, please? Bob

Bob’s 5 email: (I called Bob after this email to show him I wasn’t Miller, this wasn’t good enough. I proved this theory wrong and Bob moved onto this current, front theory. And for this reason, I wouldn’t call him back and just ignored him as much as possible.)

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:41:30 -0500

Savannah,
I just want to be sure I'm not talking to Jeff. Please take a minute to call me. Bob

Bob’s 6 email:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:32:39 -0500

Savannah,
I'm in my office now if you want to call and talk this over. 405-722-5017. Believe me I've got nothing against you, only Jeff Miller. If you're not associated with him you have nothing to worry about. Bob

Bob’s 7 email:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dwarf Burmese
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 14:23:36 -0500

Still waiting.

Bob’s 8 email:

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: morphs webpagege
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:42:07 -0500

Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

My Reply to above:

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:56:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com> | Add to Address Book

Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
To: "Bob Clark" <bob@bobclark.com>

Bob,

Do not contact me or attempt to contact me in anyway and threatening to expose lies about me, STOP. I don’t appreciate you telling me you will take my animals from me. And since Jeff Miller doesn’t own them, I don’t know how you would take them anyway. I own these animals, it doesn’t matter who I know or what people I know do. Whats between you and Jeff Miller is between you and him, it has nothing to do with me. Please leave me out of it.

Savannah

Bob’s email back: (9)

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:55:29 -0500

Still waiting for your call.

My Reply:

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:08:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com> | Add to Address Book

Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
To: "Bob Clark" <bob@bobclark.com>

Bob,

Please for the second time, do not contact me directly or indirectly by email, phone, or public forum, or any other way. You made me cry already, told me you would take my animals from me and are threatening to post your lies about me. Whatever you have against Jeff Miller is with you and him, not me. For the last time, leave me a lone, Im scared of you and I feel you are harassing me. You are black-mailing me into calling you. You say you will post about me if I don’t call, please just leave me a lone. I’m a young girl who took her savings and went into business and you are upset I got animals you want. You are already trying to ruin my business and my name because I know someone. Please leave me a lone. Please.

Thank you
Have a good day,
Savannah

Bob’s email back: (10) (One of my fav. Now why would I use my own money, my own contacts, my own import license, my own customers and give away my profit to Miller? Just doesn’t make sense does it? Who would do something like that?

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>

Savannah,
I know that Miller can't have an import license and that he's using you to bring animals into the country. Miller needs you to deal with the public because he can't show his face anywhere. He needs your money because he doesn't have any. Remember I've known Anson Wong for over 20 years. I know what's going on here. I won't allow Miller to profit from it. Bob Clark

PS I only asked you to call me because you promised to do it already. Maybe you should have Miller call me instead. He's more afraid of me than you are!

My Reply:

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:03:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com> | Add to Address Book

Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
To: bob@bobclark.com

BOB,

Enough, stop emailing me. You are wrong, I know Bing Shee, she sells to me, I have never dealt with Anson Wong her husband. These Burms and all other animals are owned by morph specialties INC. I am the owner of morph specialties INC. Now please stop contacting me, don’t contact me any further anymore. Please leave me out of it, please do not spread lies and rumors. NO MORE EMAILS.
JEFF MILLER DOESN’T OWN ANY OF MY ANIMALS. For the last time, if you want to go after Jeff Miller go after him directly, not to me or through me and leave my animals out of it. Please I dont want to call you, I dont want to talk to you via email or any other way. Stop harassing me. For the 3rd time.

Savannah

Bob’s email back: (11)

Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>

Savannah,
This is not harassment. You've made some choices and there are consequences for them. Anson is in prison now and last year Jeff was too. I can't go directly to Miller he's afraid to even answer his phone unless he knows who is calling. You are my only connection to him. I know he is using your import license and money to do business. Aside from the fact that you've lied to me I have no reason to believe that you are anything but a naive girl. Believe me, if people knew he was involved here you would not sell any animals at all. If you want me to deal directly with Miller have him call me. I assure you he won't. He'd rather have you be his front. Bob

Bob’s 12 and last email (due to restraining order):

From: "Bob Clark" <albinos@swbell.net> | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah" <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:34:31 -0500

Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark

Now here are the emails from Asia to Bob. Bob was trying pretty hard to get these dwarf Burmese from my supplier. Bob even said to go “behind my back”. Also note the date as it relates to the starting of his harassing me. He found out he couldn’t get the dwarf burms so his next step is to harass and scare me into giving them up?? Then that didn’t work, his next step was to ruin me and discredit me. These emails were forwarded to me by my supplier.

The first message from asia to bob in reply to bob wanting to buy dwarf Burmese from asia. You can see what they told bob. He wasn’t going to give up yet though, read the second one to bob.
----- Original Message -----
From: <-----------@pc.jaring.my>
To: "Bob Clark" <bob@bobclark.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:48 AM

Bob,
Just came back from business trip in USA. Thanks for your mail &
patient. I wish to sell the dwarf burmese to everybody but my only customer
Savannah Morphs Specialist) has given me money upfront for all I am having. As
Our agreement, I could not sell to others. Therefore, I must keep to my
promises and principle of business in between. Sorry and looking forward to do business with you in the near future.

Thank you.
Best regards,
Bing Shee

Bob told her this.
”Maybe its not necessary that Savannah knows that we do business”

This is the second email from asia to bob. Notice the reply about “going behind savannahs back” Also notice the date on both of these and how it relates to the starting of his harassment. This is how I got my connections. You think one must be in the business for a certain amount of time to be able to know someone? To answer the question, I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt. This is the words from the dealer not me. Bob told her this same stuff about miller, well here is proof positive. Nothing Bob says holds water. Its all CRAP.
From: <-----------@pc.jaring.my>
To: bob@bobclark.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re:

Bob,

Thanks for your reply.

I really don't know who is Jeff Miller,I dealth with only Savannah, she is new in business, similar to who I was 5 years ago. I will give her a chance similar to my customers in USA & Europe gave me a chance to sell & puchase as well as they thought me a lot this this fields.

It is not good in principle I am behind her back, but if there is other than dwarf burmese, I will try to offer you.

You are such a successful man and professional in this field, give her a chance as well.

My treatment to all my customers are similar.

Regards, Bing Shee

And here is email from Jeff Barringer just 2 days after bobs email above, saying “Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark”

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer" <jeffb@pethobbyist.com>
To: <morphspecialties@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 06:22 PM

KS is a Jeff's private business.

Yes, that however does not mean you don't have to follow the laws.

If you look at:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/

Then look into the cases that have been filed and settled you will see that Jeff is walking some very very fine lines with his actions. Mainly based on the fact the he makes up 95% of the online reptile hits, making him hands down the top dog. By comparison (from a percentage standpoint) even more so then the Microsoft OS .

If you also look into the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (or RICO) act you will see that based on the cases that have been brought to court and won Jeff is again walking/crossing a very fine line and while the RICO act was meant bring down the Mafia it has since become common in civil claims.

It allows civil claims to be brought by any person injured in their business or property by reason of a RICO violation. It can be applied to individuals, businesses, political protest groups, and terrorist organizations.

With that said, while it is Jeff's business there are some strong facts to show his cancellation of peoples accounts resulting in hardship and loss of business has been done with malice or less then valid reasons as his TOS are not enforced evenly and as such somebody WILL bite Jeff in the arse hard one day via our fine judicial system.

My feeling is that he is breaking laws and if not breaking them skirting them closely enough that a good lawyer could make a strong enough case for a ruling against Jeff and Kingsnake.

These are my feelings and while they apply to nothing in my life I would be more then happy to send anybody interested in the right directions.

dwedeking

11-06-2003, 06:37 PM

Mainly based on the fact the he makes up 95% of the online reptile hits

Do you have proof of this or is this just a "feeling" you have? Proof means hard numbers (ie number of searches on reptile related terms, unique visitors that KS has, etc). I agree that KS pulls a large percentage and probably the largest percentage for a single site but there are a lot of sites out there that pull a large number of visitors.

I frankly do not feel that KS is the only place to pull sales and any business that bases itself on a single entity (see other various threads on shows lately, if your only doing shows then your headed for disaster as well) other than itself is setting itself up for failure.

MS has way more market penetration than anyone in the reptile industry.

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 06:48 PM

Well, Savannah's post shows some pretty strong backing for a RICO act violation. Forget about the antitrust issues and the mites.

That post from Savannah is about the strongest post I've seen on the BOI and I think both Jeff Barringer and Bob have SOME MAJOR explaining to do.

MikeWilbanks

11-06-2003, 07:05 PM

First let me say, Bob is a good friend of mine. I have known about the connection of Savannah with Jeff Miller since a few weeks ago when all this started. There was never any attempt to "go public" with any of this, only an attempt to gather information about Jeff Miller and his resurfacing in the reptile world. Savannah denied that she even knew who Jeff Miller was. So now we know that Savannah is an admitted liar.

Let's all think logically about this issue. We have seen the emails. It proves that Bob tried several times to contact Savannah privately. If this was an attempt to hurt "competition", as if Savannah is competition to anyone, why would Bob attempt to contact her privately? Why wouldn't he come here first? This all started several weeks ago. Bob never came here with any of this. So think for a minute, the argument that this is just made up information to hurt the competition, doesn't make sense. He never posted on a forum until Savannah posted.

It is convient for Savannah and her aliases and cronies to try to change the subject and say that this is a competition thing. If she was so concerned about the success of her business, why involve a felon and notorious animal smuggler? I would never have a convicted animal smuggler take 15K worth of animals to the airport for me. What made her think that she could trust a felony animal smuggler with $15,000.00 worth of animals unless they were his too?

How many of you have connections in Maylasia? They are hard to get. Jeff Miller has them. How did this young girl from Arizona get them?

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 07:28 PM

Holly cow, I thought the one post wonders only came to save me, now Bob has them in his corner too.

I have known about the connection of Savannah with Jeff Miller since a few weeks ago when all this started.

Connection? You mean them being friends? You're implying something more so do you have and proof there is more?

There was never any attempt to "go public" with any of this, only an attempt to gather information about Jeff Miller and his resurfacing in the reptile world.

Are you crazy? I see a post from Bob saying they knew each other, what motivation is there behind that? I know Naomi Campbell but that doesn't make me a pouty brat!

Savannah denied that she even knew who Jeff Miller was. So now we know that Savannah is an admitted liar.

Who cares? If I were friends with Jeff I wouldn't tell people. Not wanting somebody to know something is far from being a liar! Very far from it, I suggest you rethink what you're saying as I think you're making this look worse not better.

Bob Clark

11-06-2003, 07:33 PM

Read the emails. I stand by what I"ve said.

Let's settle one think right now. This has nothing to due with competition or jealosy. Bing Shee agreed to sell animals to me. Before Savannah got her animals they were offered to me from Europe as well. Savannah thinks this is how I deal with competition. Believe me I deal with competition by breeding more and better animals than my competition, being an effective salesman and offering better customer service. I've been doing this successfully for 30 years.

This thing might have taken a different course if Savannah had been truthful and fothcoming in the beginning. Instead she lied to me. Why? Why did she want to hide her relationship with Miller? She told me she didn't even know who he was.

I have repeatedly stated that I have no interest in Savannah herself, only her connecton to Miller. She's gone to some effort to hide it.

Why would Savannah, an innocent, hardworking businesswoman give 3 calico retics valued at $15K to Jeff Miller, liar, thief and convicted felon?

MikeWilbanks

11-06-2003, 07:59 PM

Holly cow, I thought the one post wonders only came to save me, now Bob has them in his corner too.

I make no apologies that I don't post often. I am busy breeding snakes, caring for them and offering service to my customers. I thought that I had something to offer here so I did. Why are you attacking me Adam, I have never done anything to you?

Not wanting somebody to know something is far from being a liar! Very far from it, I suggest you rethink what you're saying as I think you're making this look worse not better.

Bob asked her directly about Jeff Miller, Savannah told him that she didn't even know who that was. She now admits that was a lie. Hence the statement that she is an admitted liar.

LLaBGNik

11-06-2003, 08:10 PM

"I have repeatedly stated that I have no interest in Savannah herself, only her connecton to Miller. She's gone to some effort to hide it."

You have no right at all to know the details of her life,You act as if you have the right to know how she runs her business and who she associates with in her PERSONAL life.She can be friends with and ask favors from anyone she wants.

If you would read her recent post you would see she told the world she knows miller,She already explained why she told you she said she didn't.I wouldnt have either in her situation.

If you were offered these burms before them,Then why didnt you buy them right then?Who would give up the offer for these and not lay down the cash right there and then..nobody.So i doubt that happened.

Connections in Malysia are not as big of a deal as you are making it out to seem.

And as far i know,Savannah didnt mention ANYTHING about bob but somehow..just somehow Bob seemed to post his FIRST post in this thread without Savannah even mentioning his name..hmmmmmmmm

And this BS about "Admitted liar"please..The girl was probally scarred out of her wits from all the threats to ruin her repuation and business.A honest person Admits to their mistakes,A LIAR..just keeps lying

Bob Clark

11-06-2003, 08:15 PM

Let's distill this controversy to the important facts:

Savannah has a relationship with Jeff Miller that she tried to hide.

Jeff Miller ships under the name of "Savannah's" company some animals that Savannah offered for sale.

Jeff Miller no longer has an import license and can't sell animals because of his soiled reputation.

Savannah, Jeff's neighbor, suddenly appears on the scene after Jeff's release from prison after serving time for a federal reptile smuggling conviction. She's offering animals imported from Anson Wong's company. Anson Wong is still serving time for his part in the smuggling scheme.

Any clearer?

Hues1

11-06-2003, 08:26 PM

I can see this getting really ugly......but I'm going to raise some points to think about as I have received a phone call from Josh ( Josh Burm Guy) who is a friend of Savannahs and who is someone that I got the impression she confided in, and I've also spoken with Bob.

These are my own personal observations.....

This is how I see Bob's point of view, Jeffery Miller robbed him of those Albino Ball Pythons back in 1994, Jeffrey Miller was sued and Bob was awarded damages in excess of $2 million dollars.

Jeffrey Miller is now out of Jail but has not made any attempts to pay back the damages.

Morph Specialties, opens its doors right around the time Jeffrey Miller is out of Jail.....

Savannah is 18 years old, this really doesnt give her a whole lot of time to have been able to build up the rapport, trust, and "reptile experience" in order to go after the "morphs" that spring up from overseas unless of course she had a boat load of money....but at her young age, I'm a little hesitant to see how that would be possible. Sorry for my ignorance, but I did not know Morph Specialties even existed til today and even worse that Savannah was in the Reptile trade prior to today.

Even if the money wasnt a issue, dealers from overseas dont just sell Morphs to anyone.

Savannah told Bob that she didnt know who Jeffrey Miller was, well she lied...however you want to look at it.

If she was trying to hide the fact that she did know Jeffrey Miller, then she must have also known why Bob asked her about Jeffrey Miller. The answer is........because technically Bob can go after anything and everything that is of value from Jeffrey Miller, Jeff Miller knows this too.

Bob was in no way trying to harass, intimidate, or blackmail Savannah from the very start as she has portrayed it,although it turned out that way because he was lied to and followed his instincts which told him that she did know Jeff Miller and the possibilities of these animals being owned or even co-owned by Miller were relatively good. And if Miller did own them.....guess what... Bob can go get them as partial re-imbursement for the damages awarded him.

The only fault I see with Bob is that he was very persistent about getting to the truth behind Savannah/Miller and his emotions got the better of him. But wouldnt you if this guy ripped you off ?

I have not spoken to Savannah, there for I wont comment on her point of view. But I will say that in speaking with Josh.....I tried to keep an open mind. I didnt talk with him in great lengths...but everything that Savannah stated in the previous post was repetitive of what Josh told me. The only thing I am a little confused about is the fact that Josh called me from a Florida area code and number....yet his profile says he's in California. Nothing against you Josh...but honesty is the best policy from the get go.

So the motto of the story goes......Bob wanted the Retics and offered to purchase them, when Savannah kept dodging and lieing about the questions pertaining to Miller...his emotions got the better of him and he became very persistent at trying to find out the truth.

Savannah.......if everything you have said about just being a acquaintance of Millers is true....then why go through what you went through just to deceive Bob ?

Had you just been honest from the get go......I dont believe that it would've gotten this blown up.

All the man wanted was what could've been rightfully his if Miller did own these snakes, and by you lieing to him about it...you yourself added the fuel to the fire.

If someone ripped me off the way Miller ripped Bob off, you bet your ass I would be scouring the earth for any kind of info I can get pertaining to his whereabouts, personal and business dealings, financial status, or anything else I can use against him.

And if Savannah is everything she claims to be with saving up her money and getting into the reptile business...I applaud her every efforts and have just one final question........when and how old were you when you realized this is what you wanted to do for a living considering no one has ever just gotten into this business without first being a hobbyist and collector of some sort prior to being a dealer/broker/breeder and non the less a broker of HIGH END INVESTMENT QUALITY MORPHS ?

KelliH

11-06-2003, 08:44 PM

Sure, I know Jeff, but that is it. He helps me out with some animals once in a while. He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn’t get to the airport.

Savannah, the above statement tells me a lot about you, irregardless of all the other things that have been said. You hang out with a piece of poo such as Miller, a criminal, someone who was convicted of stealing snakes from someone, and you expect anybody to have an ounce of respect for you? You expect people in this business to take you seriously, while you are fraternizing with the scum of our hobby??

I hope like hell we can get to the bottom of all this.

Rick Staub

11-06-2003, 08:48 PM

Since Morph Specialties is a corporation, doesn't that make its financial records a matter of public record? At the very least, the officers of this corporation are available to the public. Either way, it should be easy to prove or disprove the involvement of Jeff Miller with Savannah and Morph Specialties. A corporation does suggest that there are investors. I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't it be illegal as a corporation to direct funds to an outside partner without receiving some kind of service?

A good PI could probably discern all this fairly quickly.

Just for the record I am not taking sides, but view this situation as inconclusive and unlikely to be resolved based on what we know and has been shown here.

On the original issue for this thread, it would be nice to know why JeffB banned Savannah from KS, but unlikely that will ever be made public.

Hues1

11-06-2003, 08:50 PM

You hang out with a piece of poo such as Miller, a criminal, someone who was convicted of stealing snakes from someone, and you expect anybody to have an ounce of respect for you? You expect people in this business to take you seriously, while you are fraternizing with the scum of our hobby??

Kelli....you go girl !

I agree.

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 09:20 PM

Are Savannah's choice of friends on trial here? I know I didn't make the best choices at 18 and I don't think she is either but are here friends the issue?

My question is why would an 18 year old start a corp to sell herps? $10 says it's a Nevada corp at that!

I'm not saying this all adds up however. If Jeff was smart enough to to find an 18 year old that he could use as a front for himself, she owns the corp and he's not an officer of share holder then Bob is SOL!

If her company is a NV corp I think they allow barrer bonds. This would really mean the company and therfore snakes are owned by the person in possesion of the bonds. Not that it matters but it's easy to transfer!

In all honesty, I wouldn't have told Bob either! I talked to a guy in Phoenix, can't remember who to save my life but he told me he'd sold cages to Jeff in the past two months but he said outright he wouldn't tell anybody he'd done business with him.

I would like to see some emails from Bob to back up that he was first offered the snakes.

My thoughts are that I would be doing the same thing Bob is but that doesn't make any of it right.

As for Barringer and KS I think Savannah would have a good case as there's no reason for her account to be pulled that I know of other then Bob calling in a favor, some I would bet he did as I knwo I would have.

Rob @ RK Reptiles

11-06-2003, 10:13 PM

I have a question since we are talking about Savannah and her business. I e-mailed her about the Solid Yellow Chondro she had advertised a few weeks back and discussed the animal with her. In one of her e-mails she stated Rob, on another note. We brought in some of the first chondros. My question is how could Savannah have brought in some of the first Chondros when she was only a child when they were first imported into the US? Savannah would you like to shed some light on this? Also who is the WE? I have nothing against you nor your business at all but this confused me when you wrote it to me and now with all this other information I am even more confused. At that time I was not aware that you were only 18. And at 18 there is NO way you brought in some of the first Chondros and your business was not even around then.

Anyone that can answer this next one one please do. If memory serves me correctly didn't Jeff bring in some Chondros years back when he was involved with Importation before the robbery of Bob's animals?

Classic Dum's

11-06-2003, 10:16 PM

Ok let me get this right!
He helps me out with some animals once in a while. He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn't get to the airport.
She has a known thief and smuggler wandering in and out of her facility and shipping 15g’s worth of animals for her?? And some of you this doesn’t even bother in the slightest? Go figure. Does anyone remember all those raids that just recently went down in Ohio and what not, we all know 90% of it was bull[bleep]???? It’s a$$holes like this guy that make those raids look ligit and make a lot of these bans favorable to the general public. It’s a$$holes like this guy messing with and profiting from endangered species, that to the general public make us all look like a bunch of greedy wolves hell bent on wrecking the environment for our own profit. Once again to the general public making laws and regulations towards us favorable. So yes if this girl is buddy buddy with him and allows this guy into her facility she should be banished from the reptile community and shows and all web sites where she can find a place to advertise! So this whole issue over ksnake, GO JEFF B!!!!!!!!!

Now did anyone else pick up on this
Referring to her buddy Jeff Miller(known thief and sumggler)

He helps me out with some animals once in a while. I do know Mrs. Wong. I do not know her husband Anson Wong Know heres the interesting part shes buddies with Jeff, Deals with Wong(who just happens to be married to Anson who got busted with Jeff for smuggling animals) However claims she got Wongs contact info from some directory. Does this look rather odd to anyone else? You think one must be in the business for a certain amount of time to be able to know someone? To answer the question, I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt. Now that shes claimed to have gotten Wongs contact info from a directory, after admitting she was buddies with the guy he got caught in the scam with. I am left thinking of these two quotes.

I’m not a front to Miller…He even dropped a shipment off a delta for me because I couldn’t get to the airport.

Thomas Jones

11-06-2003, 10:48 PM

I have done business with Bob once. All was great. I have been hearing different things. All this is hearsay.

I was told that Bob had a very bad virus in his collection. That killed off most of his animals. Including the blonde burmese. That is why i e-mailed you Bob asking about the blonde burmese. I know you have been busy but i have not recieved an e-mail back from on the blonde. I was told the animals you are selling is not you stock. I hope none of this is true.

Savanna.
You are young and naieve. If you knew Miller was a theif and a crook. Why even associate with him. You are just starting a new business just to have him take snakes to the airport put you at a great risk. He could of ran off with them. To even know him and it now be admitted that you know him puts you and your business under attack and under a closeful eye.
If you are doing businees with him more than likely you will be caught. Some of the business miller is doing is more than likely illegal. You will end up in prision being rapped but women and the male guards. Take time to think on all this. He is not worth the trouble.
I hope this gets worked out.

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 11:12 PM

While I don't like to say this I agree with Jason and give him credit for using "a known thief" while having something to back it up:)

There are three things that don't sit right with me and I think Ritchie needs to come give us a hand.

1) She's friends with this guy and he has anything to do with her shipments.

2) She's an 18 year old female who decided to incorporate!

3) She was so quick to start making a case for the restraining order she filed on Bob. I've had people do MUCH worse to me and never gave a thought to doing that. The emails seemed to be setting him up for just what she did.

This all makes me think there is some Major coaching going on here.

My Corporation is in place to protect my family from any issues that may come up in my business life. What reason does an 18 year old have for owning one? There is no other reason I can think of but to either protect yourself in the event you're breaking laws or hide the real owner of a company!

I mean there are HUGE tax breaks but there is no real reason that an 18 year old wouldn't just start small with a local business or at most an LLC.

Savannah can you explain ANY of this at all?

1) Who did you incorporate through?

2) What State did you incorporate in and please don't say it just happend to be NV.

3) What is the date of incorporation?

4) What assets does the corp own other then the reptiles?

5) Any realestate or other companies?

I don't mean to dig into your business but you've decided to make this a public matter and because of that I feel without knowing the above people can't make an informed choice.

ms_terese

11-06-2003, 11:14 PM

This is disturbing on many levels.

First of all, I personally know NONE of the people involved, so I am basing my opinion on their own words and verifiable public records.

Savanna, this must be terrifying for you. You are probably hearing alot of contradictory things, and being pulled in many directions. My instinct is that you were given a pretty good story from some people, and thought you had a neat little thing worked out, and it's starting to not turn out that way.

I'm sure that any professional affiliation with Jeff Miller will cost you dearly in this community. Yes, taking snakes to Delta for you constitutes a professional affiliation, especially since your business is incorporated. Jeff Barringer may be the first (if indeed this affiliation was related to your account cancellation) to sever any sort of business relationship with you, but I guarantee it won't be the last. People make determinations about their professional relationships all the time. There are businesses out there that I wouldn't come anywhere near. Everyone is that way. Reputations are hard to earn, and people guard them very carefully.

I can't help but think that there is more to your association with Jeff Miller than you are admitting. I also can't help but think that you were led into this like lambs to the slaughter.

Have you read through the court transcripts of the charges against Jeff Miller? Do you have a true comprehension of the magnitude of his actions? Do you realize how very damaging that theft was to Bob Clark? Do you understand why Bob Clark would be reacting to this situation as he is?

Savanna, losing your account with KS is the very least of your worries. Please, please, PLEASE take an objective look at your situation and think hard before continuing to do business while maintaining your affiliations. If you have a trusted friend, maybe someone a little older, that doesn't know any of the people involved, ask them to give an honest opinion, and present them with all the FACTS. I don't mean to say that young people can't make their own choices, but I have great respect for the wisdom that people who've been around the block possess.

I truly hope your future reptile endeavors turn out well for you. I also hope that Bob Clark gets what a court has awarded him. Jeff Miller will get what he deserves eventually......karma is a sweet thing.

KJUN

11-06-2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by TheGhost
Well, Savannah's post shows some pretty strong backing for a RICO act violation. Forget about the antitrust issues and the mites.

That post from Savannah is about the strongest post I've seen on the BOI and I think both Jeff Barringer and Bob have SOME MAJOR explaining to do.

Is it just me or does this thread read like a set-up from the get-go aimed maybe more at Bob than at Jeff...or at least the opportunity was seized to make it that way? I'm not defending Bob because i don't know him. I don't deal in large snakes, so we just don't run in the same circles. I just think it looked like a set-up. Was that a Georgia judge that gave a restraining order on something like that....lol. It looks a little overboard to me!

Still, I can see it leaving Bob stuff to explain, but this thread is about Kingsnake's policy towards account users, right? Start a new thread on Bob if it is warranted (I don't know if it is and I don't care that much), but let's stick to kingsnake.com versus account holders.

As of yet, I see suspicion but no proof that the story about Bob and the account refusal are even related. Maybe they are - for a valid reason, I might ad - but just remember that there is NO PROOF that the two incidents are or aren't connected.

If, and I do say IF, she is connected with a bad guy found guilty in a court of law, isn't that reason enough for her to be refused an account? I did say IF. I think it would be. I'd be happy in that case.

For anyone that hasn't seen it, I love this shirt: http://tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a18

Sasheena

11-06-2003, 11:34 PM

Did someone say Buckeye AZ?

Wow. Talk about guilt by association. Is Jeff Miller in Buckeye? (I ask because I don't know the first thing about him).

I also ask because I am hoping that those who believe that Savannah has done wrong won't think that everyone from the podunk town of Buckeye AZ is "BAD". I've only lived here since August, but I've been a high school teacher here for two and a half years.

The good thing is, I only own two pythons, neither of which could breed with teh other. :) One female Jungle Carpet Python, and one male (?) ball python.

Just wanted to make clear where I'm REALLY from (sure my profile says Phoenix, it's a generalization). Figure it's better to be up front and honest.

AS far as the issue at hand, I really really hope that it gets figured out.

Jon Brant

11-06-2003, 11:37 PM

Bob why don't you just admit you want these Dwarf Burms and you will do what it takes to get them? If you had a chance to buy them why didn't you?? I think if you did have this so called chance you would have jumped on them.

You also said you've known Anson Wong for 20 years. Does this mean you have done business with him or his wife? Are you guilty by association for that? You tried to buy them from behind her back from who Ansons wife?

If Savannah is guilty of being young and naive (your words) then what does that say for the so called GURU of Burmese Pythons?
Does this mean that it is your way or the highway?

Jon Brant

Casey Hulse

11-06-2003, 11:46 PM

Bob why don't you just admit you want these Dwarf Burms and you will do what it takes to get them?
Jon, Do you mean "THOSE DWARF BURMS"? It looks like you are in possesion of them by your post..
Good luck Bob!

Adam Block

11-06-2003, 11:53 PM

KJ what's the deal? Are you dating Jeff? Is there another plasma TV being offered as a prize?

Jeff will always hide from this site! It's like you know, how Vampires don't go out in the sun and felions don't go hang out at the police station. He has no defense so he just will not respond or will resort to banning ANYBODY that goes against him.

Don't try to defend a person that won't even defent themselfs. If they won't clear the dust there's a reason for it and we all know what it is!

Classic Dum's

11-06-2003, 11:54 PM

John he doesnt want the dwarfs I assure you that. He was trying to find the facts, get her on the phone and fuind out exactly what was going on with her and Jeff. Also she admitted thats shes friends with him and has some sort of relationship with him that is not being admitted to here. Why else would she allow him to carry off 15g's worth of animals. Would you allow anyone you didnt know and trust to the fullest to drive away with that much of your money? She did 15 grand so there is obviously more going on here then whats being said. You also said you've known Anson Wong for 20 years. Does this mean you have done business with him or his wife? Preior to him being caught smuggling who knows maybe he did, who cares. After wong being caught I really doubt Bob has had anything to do with him much less letting him wander through his facility and drive around with 15g's worth of his animals. You gotta rember Jeff stole albino balls from Bob and is now wandering around Savannas facility.
John email me your number so I can call ya, btw that goofy patterned boa is doing really good.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 12:17 AM

Hey Jason, maybe it wasn't that she trusted him with $15,000 in animals maybe it was that he didn't trust her with $15,000 in animals and that's why he took them to Delta? Kinda give us something to think about, putting myself in all parties shoes that's my feeling.

Also, Jeff owns nothing, at least not until Bob has been paid in full and since we're talking about a felon (I think right) here I would have to say Jeff;s going to do what he can to hide anything he is worth. Bob has all the right in the world to look into it and Savannah filing that court order only makes me think she is hiding something!

Jon Brant

11-07-2003, 12:20 AM

But Jason he does want THESE (maybe I do own some Casey I'll never tell) snakes, he tried to buy them behind her back.

I can remember something about the original albino Burm. If I can recall it was stolen from a wealthy priate zoo. It ended up on American soil and Bob paid to borrow it and the rest is history. Is that the way it happened I know somebody will remember.

Whats the rule if your not cheating your not trying. Does it only make you a bad guy if you get caught? I guess it all happened so long ago it is alright.

The reptile industry in general is very lucritive and shady. If you want it cleaned up it will have to happen as with the birds. I've had this hobby for a long time and there are good and bad as with all things but sometimes the bad wears a good mask and tries to fool you. You don't get where Bob is by always being Mr. nice guy.

Jon Bant

BrianB

11-07-2003, 02:33 AM

From Savannah's site (http://www.morphspecialties.com/bobharassment1.html) Bold added by me.

Info on me and Miller:
I do know Jeff Miller and I won’t deny it. That has nothing to do with me or my animals or my business. We have several happy customers. We have not once sold an animal where the customer was unhappy. That’s not so with Bob Clark. I can post all emails and the injunction of harassment too. I have proof to back up everything I say, its all true.

Just for the sake of clarification: Do the "we's" refer to you and Jeff Miller, or to Morph Specialities. Grammatically, the antecedant is you and Miller, so if that's not what you intended, then you need to fix it. If it is what you intended, then could you elaborate on the exact nature of your business relationship with Jeff Miller?

(Off Topic: The dwarf burms do look like very cool snakes.)

robin d.

11-07-2003, 02:55 AM

ok first off i went here.....
http://www.cc.state.az.us/index.htm

as far as i can see no corporation listed for savannah semas or morph specialties
.... so yes corporations are public record

Morph Specialties Inc., was started and is owned by me, Savannah Sernas; in the very hot state of Arizona. After a few years of working very hard to obtain the best connections we are finally able to offer you the very best in wild caught morphs.

so then you started obtaining these snakes a few years back at 15 or 16?

i also notices some time line discrepancies in your emails.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 03:10 AM

Can you look into NV and WY corps? I don't think that some seedy fool would be wise enough to choose WY over NV but it's possible. Please if anybody has the time or energy look into weather she's incorporated in NV as I would bet $50 she is.

Who is all the we's by the way?

Also, the responce took a fairly long time for a person acting on their own.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 03:17 AM

Registrant:
Morph Specialties
12856 S. Zuni rd.
Buckeye, Arizona 85326
United States

Registered through: Fat Boy Domains
Domain Name: MORPHSPECIALTIES.COM
Created on: 18-Aug-03
Expires on: 18-Aug-04
Last Updated on: 18-Sep-03

Administrative Contact:
Sernas, Savahhan morphspecialties@yahoo.com
Morph Specialties
12856 S. Zuni rd.
Buckeye, Arizona 85326
United States
(602) 206-6919

As you can see the domain was just registered, fairly odd for somebody working for years and putting the collection and reputation together. I would assume it was all done for this exact reason.

Bob, I would contact the host of her site and have the hosting pulled, fairly mean but Jeff B did it to me (nice move btw Jeff) and I'm sure they would do it for you as I doubt they wanna deal with the legal issues and I'm sure something in their TOS would keep her from posting the info on this there.

robin d.

11-07-2003, 03:26 AM

http://www.netronline.com/public_records.htm
where's the dang weasle when ya need him...

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 03:35 AM

NV is a place people start their corps because it's hard to get the info. I don't think you're going to find it on a website as I don't think I could so I thought maybe you had an in.

I will say that Savannah has no criminal record in Maricopa County and I also didn't see anything for Jeffery Miller.

Roger Jolly

11-07-2003, 03:53 AM

Damn! I go fishing for a day and look at all I missed in this thread.

Hopefully this will be short, because I got sunburnt and want to soak in a tub of cool water to draw off all that heat my skin is generating.

I read this entire thread from beginning to end, even the posts I have previously read. The very first thing I noticed that caught my eye was this post from Adam Block.

Bob Clarks collection of mites that have a snake infestation.

That was right out of the blue. What an amazing coincidence that Bob Clark evidently has a large involvement in this thread, and Adam invoked his name on the very first page. Actually, when I saw his Bob Clark's first message I thought certainly he had posted to refute Adam's statement. Which would have been surprising in itself.

Now somewhere along the line, Adam Block flip flopped on which side he was on. Strange, don't you think?

Was this whole thread intended to be a setup? If so, who is the target?

On to other things.

Later on (sorry but this might not be in chronological order), kjun posted this quote.

As of yet, I see suspicion but no proof that the story about Bob and the account refusal are even related. Maybe they are - for a valid reason, I might ad - but just remember that there is NO PROOF that the two incidents are or aren't connected.

What a contrast in opposite ends of logic that statement is! There is no proof of a connection between Bob Clark's threat against Savannah and the subsequent account cancellation she got, yet there was apparently sufficient cause (where's the proof here?) for Jeffie to block Savannah from advertising her animals.

From: "Bob Clark" | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah"
Subject: morphs webpagege
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:42:07 -0500

Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

From: "Bob Clark" | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah"
Subject: Re: morphs webpagege
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:34:31 -0500

Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.

OK, it is circumstantial, but heck, highly suspicious to see those three statements lined up like they are above. I assume that Savannah did not contact Bob Clark, so did he make good on his threat to expose Savannah on kingsnake? If he did make good on his threat, how did he do that? Isn't it against kingsnake.coms TOS to post negative info about someone in the forums? So what exactly did he do? Talk to Jeffie? Well that certainly seems to be the most logical thing to assume. And if we assume this is the case, what is the only thing Jeffie could have done that would "not be good for your business"?

Fits like a hand in a glove to me, people.

So, not only do we have a situation where Jeffie will ban people that tread on his fragile megalomania ego, that dare to argue with him, or fail to obey his demands about what they do on their own websites, but the evidence in this thread presents a pretty convincing picture that Jeffie will also ban people at the request of those people that may be considered as FOJs (friends of Jeffie).

Surely Bob Clark had no firm evidence in hand when he contacted Jeffie. Otherwise he would have been seeking legal recourse to seize property he felt was owned by Jeff Miller. So acting basically on a hunch or perhaps a gut feeling, Bob Clark went to Jeff Barringer and from all angles of view I have tried, convinced Jeffie to ban the account of an 18 year old girl trying to run a business competing in some fashion with Bob Clark.

Is any of this sinking in yet?

Savannah - if you have not done so, get an attorney. A good one that will be willing to take this case on a contingency basis, if possible. If not, get one anyway. There could be a lot of money in it for him/her when the fee is collected. Obviously both Bob Clark and Jeff Barringer/kingsnake.com have conspired to deprive you of your livelihood based on nothing more than suppositions, conclusion jumping, and perhaps competitive jealousy. The judge you spoke with is already familiar with this situation, so see if an injunction can be filed against kingsnake.com for Jeffies actions in this affair. Personally, I would go for the throat(s) myself. Sell whatever you need to in order to scrape up money for a damned good attorney, because after the courts are finished with this, you will have lots of money to buy everything back, and then some.

Ouch..... I'm heading off for that cool bath....

JungleHabitats

11-07-2003, 04:22 AM

From the way this is turning out right now this is begging for a "Pay-Per-View" lisiting ... imagine what the numbers the bookies would run on this one will be ?No matter who is wrong or right in this outcome i thinks theres going to be some heads rolling .from what has been posted thus far right now i think i would lay my .02 on Bob's #7 on that round will with all the red&black numbers on it and let Savanah spin it ... but i wont someone "impartial" to drop the pill.

seeing as how she has nothing listed in AZ as a corp. this means two things #1 its not listed there #2 if it is in NV then whats she trying to hide by not lisiting it in her home state of AZ.

Now for the fact That she has readily admitted to everyone she is associated with Mr. miller and we all have grabbed the paper to draw this conclusion ..."What the hell are you thinking" Now i know if i were to have $15K in animals i wouldnt putthem in the hands of a known convicted felon whos specialty was SNAKE THEFT/EXPORTING???? hello is that wheel working or did the hamster fall off?

That would be like letting a KNOWN CONVICTED CRACK HEAD goto the bank with your paycheck!! just aint going to happen like that and if it did you better beleive im going to be the one that opened the door for him at the bank.

If they were to give odds right now by what has been laid on the table i would say that there not looking real good for you Savanah if you are looking to get the vote of the herp community at this point i would do a few things to benifit you claims and do it quick....

[list=1]
Post where you made you corporation legal at
Give names to the other two partners ( there should be three in a corporation i think) there was in the bar buisness i was in a few years ago
give some explanation how a 18 year girl as yourself came into the amount of money it would have taken to get you were you are right now ?
explain how you imported Chondros at the age of 14 or so
and last but not least hope that you casual helper Jeffrie doesnt ruin you for life ....
[/list=1]

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 04:47 AM

Now somewhere along the line, Adam Block flip flopped on which side he was on. Strange, don't you think?

STOP THE PRESS MISTER HAPPY!! Before you go looking so deep into the worm hole when did I flip sides? Far as I know Bob still has a issue with Mites. My side was that BObs a fine guy to buy from with a mite issue, have I said anything to make you feel I thought otherwise?

Jolly man, we're on the same side! I'm the one that owned kingsnakesucks.com and jeffberrangersucks.com, that was NO JOKE! I owned those names, if there is anybody with a stronger dislike for the man I'd be happy to find out. If you read this WHOLE thread you will see me pointing out after Savannahs post the RICO act and how I feel Jeff's in violation of it.

AS FOR THE $15,000 in snakes, as I said, do you think it's that she trusted them with Jeff or that Jeff didn't trust his snakes with her?

1) Post where you made you corporation legal at

2) Give names to the other two partners ( there should be three in a corporation i think) there was in the bar buisness i was in a few years ago

3) give some explanation how a 18 year girl as yourself came into the amount of money it would have taken to get you were you are right now ?

1) I agree, I want to know this as I'm sure it NV.

2) In NV one person corps are allowed.

3) This is none of our business to be honest. Where she's getting the funs has nothing to do with this topic and in my eyes is an invasion of her privacy.

seeing as how she has nothing listed in AZ as a corp. this means two things #1 its not listed there #2 if it is in NV then whats she trying to hide by not lisiting it in her home state of AZ.

I don't have my corp set up in my own State, some reasons are:

1) State taxes, some don't have them others do.

2) One person corps, again not allowed in many States.

3) Sharing info with the IRS, most States do and while I don't care for obvious reasons there are people that do. NV of course has the highest corp audit rate.

4) Shareholders meetings, some States make you hold them in State while other let you go to HI and still write it off on your taxes:)

5) Bearer Bonds, not sure if these really do a lot of good bt the person with them in their hand owns the corp. Makes things pretty easy and hard to track who would really own the assets of a corp.

Point is, while criminals like to have NV corps it doesn't mean cause you have your corp set up there you are one. I wouldn't use or need mine there but it's a good option for a wise business man or somebody looking to cause trouble.

WebSlave

11-07-2003, 04:53 AM

There is something nagging me about this thread. So I had to go all the way back to the beginning and reread the messages to try to figure out what that nagging feeling is all about.

The last several messages seem to be bringing up the fact that Savannah entrusted 3 calico retics worth $15,000 to a convicted animal smuggler. Well maybe I missed it in the re-read (which certainly is possible during the bleary-eyed time of the morning it is), but the first time I see anything at all of the VALUE, much less that types of animals involved is on page 9. First Mike Wilbanks (a good friend of Bob Clark's) quotes the figure of $15,000 on the value of those animals. Then two messages down, Bob Clark posts the identification of those animals as being 3 calico retics.

OK, I give up, how was this information known to Bob Clark and Mike Wilbanks? Was Savannah that loose with the information about her sales and customers? I mean, if someone posted here exactly what I shipped out to my customers on Tuesday, I would be rather flabbergasted at them having that sort of information.

Pardon the heck out of me if I just overlooked something obvious. It's late, and I'm hitting the sack.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 04:55 AM

You know what, I'm an idiot, sorry for the typos and I need to just go to bed. I spend time in here just about any time I'm depressed. I shoulda never moved to SC, so I'm working on ANOTHER move but the whole isue now has me depressed. Hence my large amount of time in here.

I know none of you care but it's late and that's my reason for the stupid talk that I think is helping the issue but for some reason always makes me look like the idiot. I'm starting to think I don't come off well with writen word as people like me fine on the phone.

Honest folks, I have good intentions and really do try to help. Yeah yeah, funny and all I'm sure but I do.

Good night,
Mr. blah blah blah

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 04:58 AM

Rich, I got the impression that Bob paid off, called in a favor or whatever some underpaid Delta person to give him the info. I assumed it was on the slip for insurance issues but damn good point.

Night, hey why are you still up?

KJUN

11-07-2003, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by TheGhost
KJ what's the deal? Are you dating Jeff?

I told you to keep that a secret!

KJ

KJUN

11-07-2003, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by TheGhost
Also, Jeff owns nothing, at least not until Bob has been paid in full and since we're talking about a felon (I think right) here I would have to say Jeff;s going to do what he can to hide anything he is worth. Bob has all the right in the world to look into it and Savannah filing that court order only makes me think she is hiding something!

Very good point. I've got a suspicion that this is correct, too.
KJ

KJUN

11-07-2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by TheGhost
Bob, I would contact the host of her site and have the hosting pulled, fairly mean but Jeff B did it to me (nice move btw Jeff) and I'm sure they would do it for you as I doubt they wanna deal with the legal issues and I'm sure something in their TOS would keep her from posting the info on this there.

OK for Bob to have done but bad for Jeff to have done? I must have missed something here. I'm serious. I'm not trying to be a smart-butt or anything. I think having someone's page removed from a site you do NOT own, without a valid reason that would stand up in court, isn't a good thing. Stressing the need for the reason, of course.

Hey, wouldn't that be a violation of his restraining order? LOL.
KJ

MikeWilbanks

11-07-2003, 08:47 AM

Savannah - if you have not done so, get an attorney.

Good advice Roger, she's going to need one, or maybe two.

MikeWilbanks

11-07-2003, 09:01 AM

OK, I give up, how was this information known to Bob Clark and Mike Wilbanks? Was Savannah that loose with the information about her sales and customers? I mean, if someone posted here exactly what I shipped out to my customers on Tuesday, I would be rather flabbergasted at them having that sort of information.

It was obtained as part of an ongoing and in depth investigation.

Bob Clark

11-07-2003, 09:17 AM

Here's an email from Bing Shee (Mrs. Anson Wong) offering me dwarf Burmese:

----- Original Message -----
From: Anson
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:00 PM

Bob,

Have 2 females now, U$8,000 each.

Bing Shee

Josh Burm Guy- You've been singing the same song for a while now but its not necessary that I buy everything that is offered to me, nor does it prove anything if I did or did not buy these animals. They were offered to me from Europe for $2000. each. Savannah asked $60,000 each for them, BTW!

Classic Dum's

11-07-2003, 10:12 AM

You know what is really sad about this thread, that people like Jolly Rancher there can think its acceptable for someone to pow wow around with convicted theives/smugglers like Jeff Miller. If her buddy/partner/delta shipping friend whatever he is was a convicted drug dealer who served his time and went clean then ya I could see the forgive and forget bit. But open your eyes mr jolly people like Jeff M put our hobby in joepardy. So for anyone to try and justify her actions with him I am sorry but thats just wrong. Its obvious since his release he has not atempted to go stright either. He hasnt paid Bob one cent of the money he rightfully owes him and almost imediatly upon his release is running around and shipping animals for Savanna. Going straight would mean paying Bob and staying as far away from reptiles as he can. He hasnt done either so Id bet $500 that in time, maybe not this year, maybe not next year but sometime well all see his name in the headlines again for some illegal reptile operation.

Now as far as your remarks about Adam and the mites. I for one have never heard anything of this as I am sure no one else has. Ive seen bobs animals at shows even bought a few from time to time and all were very clean animals 100% up to par. So where Adam gets this from whos knows and who cares. Sometimes I honestly think Adam lives in another realm or something. Sometimes when reading Adams posts I sware I hear that theme from the twilight zone, do do do do....do do do do. However for once I have to give Adam some credit as he does seem to be right on the money about a few other things within this thread. So he may have done a flip but atleast he is seeing through the crap( IM not attacking you Adam so dont throw on the war paint). And as much as he hates Jeff B I am sure he is even man enough to admit that Jeff did a huge favor to all of us by kicking her off ksnake whatever his reasons for doing so where. Neither Jeff M nor anyone affliated/buddies/partners/ someone who allows him to ship 15g's worth their animals should be allowed to conduct buinsess anywhere within this community. He has been convited NOT charge or accused, convicted! He had his chance at inocent till proven guilty and he was PROVEN guilty. Savanna admits she let him ship those animals, oh and he helps her out from time to time to, that makes the truth painfully obvious to me.

I feel for Savanna I truely do. I think she is young and niave got coached into this by Jeff. I think he probally convinced her that everything would be alright and now even if she does sever her ties to him shell always have a hard time earning respect within the community. Savanna you need to sever those ties to Jeff, TODAY!!! Youll find that any respectable buisness will do exactly like Jeff B did and slam the door in your face as long as you are assoicated with him in any way shape or form.

Now I dont know this to be fact but I have my suspisions about who those animals actually belong to. If by chance it was Jeffs money that funded it or partially funded it, savanna take them and walk away. Whats he going to do sue ya?? Ya right!! if some of those are by chance his or partially his all hes going to do is whine and snivel. If he admits to ownership or even partial owner ship #1 Bob will take them #2 Jeff will be in for a bunch of legal problems because they were imported, he cant legally import anything and him admitting to some kind of ownership over those animals would implicate him in the importation of them. Like I said I dont know any of that as fact but have my opinions based on what I have seen here and if anything above is even remotly true just walk away, thats all ya have to do. The reptile community as a whole is way to small for you to hide and conduct buisness within.

Anyway I think that pretty much anything that needs to be said has been said.

Bob Clark

11-07-2003, 10:17 AM

Here's an email from one of my European customers:

----- Original Message -----
From: Au.bengali
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: snake price list

Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis

Savannah has no exclusive. The animals can still be bought and for less than $60K

Darin Chappell

11-07-2003, 10:42 AM

This appears to be one of those threads "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing!" I mean, there will be a lot of posting about who said what and when, the thread will begin to take on a life of its own, but I highly doubt that we will be getting to the bottom of this anytime soon.

I find it difficult to believe that an 18 year old has the money and connections to accomplish on her own what Savannah says she has done. I also find it difficult to understand how someone savvy enough in the world of business to have a purported corner on the market of a highly desireable morph is too tenderhearted to talk to Bob Clark on the phone. But those are just my difficulties, I suppose.

I can certainly understand why Bob is concerned (if not convinced) that Jeff Miller may well be involved with Savannah and her corporation. After all, he has his suspicions about her capacities as I outlined above, but he also has a very personal interest in finding out if Miller is making any money for him to collect. More power to Bob in that effort of collecting money from Miller, I say!

However, there is not as much explicit mystery here about Savannah's use of pronouns, her exaggerated timeline, or her formation of a corporation as has been suggested by a few. C'mon everyone! We all know firsthand of people right here on the old BOI who have pumped up their business image by using "We" instead of "I." Call it the "Royal We," if you choose, but that is not so hard to accept as a possibility. Further, saying you have been doing something for a few years is a lot better than saying "I'm 18 1/2 now, and I started at 16 . . . want to send me a lot of money?!?!?!?" To the same point, those three little letters "Inc." make one appear established and ready for business. Would I have used that tactic just starting out? Nope. But I didn't buy high dollar snakes at 18 either!

It may very well be that Jeff Miller is financing, expediting, maybe even running Morph Specialties, but I think Bob will have a very hard time proving that sufficiently to motivate a court to take action. However, the standard of proof for motivating JeffB is far lower. JeffB obviously looked at Savannah's situation, and, for whatever reason, determined that she was more headache to him than her account money was worth to him. Fair enough; it's his site, and he has every right to do that. Even if it could be proven that JeffB did this simply because Bob asked him to do so, how is that illegal? I sold out of all of my animals this year, and even had to buy some more to fill an order, but I do not advertise on KS. I don't buy the "You have to be on KS to be legitimate" nonsense, so I also don't buy the "JeffB unfairly rules the reptile world" nonsense, either.

Anyway, I have no doubt that this will turn into a full-fledged docu-drama here on the BOI. I just hope that whomever it is that is being the crook is caught and punished. I'm just not going to hold my breath on it.

TJEvans

11-07-2003, 01:06 PM

This entire thread so far has been so calk full of some serious speculation.

How does Savanah have that kind of money?
Gee, I don't know....inheritance? Lottery? Savings? Perhaps she had a parent that passed away and collected SS until she was 18, and SAVED all of it?

There ae SO many answers that could all be true. What doe it matter to anyone else HOW she got the money. Jeff Miller had supposedly just gotten out of prison and had a HUGE legal debt to pay off. Please don't speculate that he had this outrageous ammount of money stashed away that the courts didn't find.

Here's another point of speculation.....
Savanah HAS an import license (according to testimony :D )
PERHAPS......Jeff Miller HELPED her get it....you know, what forms to fill out, who to contact, etc. PERHAPS, she incorporated with a couple of friends (other than Miller) and he just simply acts as a professional mentor. Obviously the guy knows HOW to import, and deal with reptiles, albeit illegally.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that until Savanah posts some of the facts that people are looking for, it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller. So he took some snakes to the airport. PERHAPS he's an employee of hers?

WebSlave

11-07-2003, 01:22 PM

From what I have heard, quite a number of people have gotten into this business because of a large inheritance, insurance settlement, law suit settlement, generous wealthy grandparents, or just hooking up with a rich partner with lots of money but no experience, putting a large amount of money into their pockets to spend on animals.

Let's face it, normal working stiffs like me and you are not going to have the kind of money to throw around on $15,000+ snakes. But there are certainly circumstances arising that do put some people in the position to be able to afford such things, and the history of this business has it's own share of them.

I don't see anything unusual about this sort of thing happening yet again. Heck, SOMEONE has to be buying those high end animals and they all don't have to be 30+ years old, do they?

MikeWilbanks

11-07-2003, 01:42 PM

. Jeff Miller had supposedly just gotten out of prison and had a HUGE legal debt to pay off.

Remember, Jeff Miller stole a 2 million dollar project from Bob. The animals were never recovered. It is not diffucult to conceive that he had a huge stash of cash waiting for him when he got out of prison. Stolen money, like the kind Jeff had is not the kind you just put in the bank. If the cash was hidden somewhere, the courts would never find it. The huge legal debt that you speak of, has not had one cent paid on it.

Sure there are other ways to get money and some have been mentioned here. We have all seen people come in over the years, some with thousands of dollars to spend. But how many have come in with thousands of dollars to spend on reptiles and STARTED in the high risk game of wiring money overseas and importing animals? All the people that I have seen come in new to the hobby, start dealing with American breeders and work their way up, most never play the import game. It's too risky. How many of you, when you were 18, woke up one day and said "I believe that I will make some contacts in Maylasia, wire thousands of dollars to these people I just met and get in the reptile business?

How much evidence do you require? An 18yr old kid teams up with a Maylasian exporter and buys thousands of dollars worth of animals. This Maylasian exporter just happens to be Jeff Miller's old contact. Jeff Miller just happens to clean cages and handle shipping for the innocent 18yr old. The pieces of this puzzle aren't creating a picture for you?

If Savannah had these contacts on her own as she claims, why involve Miller at all? She had to know his involvement would cause her trouble.

Also, what about the cages that Jeff Miller, himself purchased just before the animals were imported. Could these cages be traced to Savannah's facility? Are these the cages that the pictures on the MorphSpecialities site show?

Hues1

11-07-2003, 01:51 PM

Savannah.....are you still going to or did you graduate from Buckeye Union H.S. this past season ??? or maybe Corona H.S. ???

18 years old, wheeling and dealing with the big boys....NOT.

I've got nothing against you personally, but if you keep company with people like Jeff Miller....I'm sorry to say, but you've basically taped a bullseye on your chest.

Even if everything you've said up to this point has been true.....the whole Jeff Miller thing pretty much destroyed any credibility you might or may have.

ms_terese

11-07-2003, 01:57 PM

it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller. So he took some snakes to the airport. PERHAPS he's an employee of hers? People who do work for companies are typically considered employees, which would constitute a business relationship. If Jeff Miller is an employee, Bob Clark would certainly have a vested interest in that relationship, so that he can attach those wages.

If Jeff Miller is working "under the table" for this corporation, as in doing work but not being set up as an actual employee, that is illegal.

However, it IS all speculation, and it IS off topic for the thread. I must say I'm glad to have the new information about Jeff Miller out there though. The herp community needs to stay aware when one of the verified bad guys gets back into the hobby.

I don't think Savanna will post here any further, so if there was more information about the cancellation of her account at KS, which was the topic of this thread, we'll probably never know what it was.

Classic Dum's

11-07-2003, 02:28 PM

it is merely speculation that she is in ANY kind of business relationship with Jeff Miller. Oh come on, do you allow people to wander around with 15g's worth of your animals?? I know I wouldnt(I dont have that much in animals) if I had that much in animals. Theres two people in this world that would ever lay hands on them, my better half and myself, NO ONE ELSE. If I was to sell them you can rest assured NO ONE would touch those animals untill they were safely in the hands of Delta Airlines fully insured and I had paper work to prove it. No one would touch those animals. Would you allow anyone else to go running around with 15g's worth of your animals?? Espacially someone like Jeff Miller a convicted theif and smuggler?????How much evidence do you require? An 18yr old kid teams up with a Maylasian exporter and buys thousands of dollars worth of animals. This Maylasian exporter just happens to be Jeff Miller's old contact. You forgot the part about how she got her buddy(Jeffs), old maylasian contact info through and directory and not Jeff himself. I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt. Him we know she lied to Bob about knowing Jeff. Did she also lie right here in this board about where her contact info came from? I dunno

Hues1

11-07-2003, 02:35 PM

[QUOTE]I got their numbers from a directory put out years ago by a company in Lodi California, great Valley Serpt. [/QUOTE

Actually I believe that was almost 5 years ago...back in 1999 or 98. I dont remember exactly....but I do know that it hasnt been in circulation for at least 3 plus years.

trisha

11-07-2003, 02:40 PM

To: Bob Clark
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 10:00 PM
Bob,

Have 2 females now, U$8,000 each.

Bing Shee

They were offered to me from Europe for $2000

Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis

To me this is not being offered the snakes at $2000. So where is the e-mail from Ms. Wong offering them for $2000

Also, what about the cages that Jeff Miller, himself purchased just before the animals were imported. Could these cages be traced to Savannah's facility? Are these the cages that the pictures on the MorphSpecialities site show?

Now we have this. Does someone have a copy of bill of sale to Miller for these cages? If I missed something in a post then my bad.

sent Savannah two polite emails about this.
I think there was more than 2 sent. I would like to see Clarks e-mails from Savannah. She posted her e-mails.

This is the main question I would like to see answered.
Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

How did you plan on exposing her???

Classic Dum's

11-07-2003, 02:42 PM

I dont doubt there was a list, I just have serious doubt about her actually getting Wongs contact from the list instead of Jeff as she claims. I think its safe to say that considering Jeffs recent release from a several year prison term that his contact info printed on that list is outdated and invaled. So I really dont think she found Jeff through that list, nor do I think she found Wong through it either.

Hues1

11-07-2003, 02:49 PM

What I was refering to was the list hasnt been around for a while...so if she did see it and did have a copy of it...she would've been around 14-15 years old at the time.

Not to mention that the list wasnt exactly free.....it was big bucks and it wasnt offered to the general public.

JuliusSqueezer

11-07-2003, 02:52 PM

hmmm just stumbled into this today. fun reading!

I never joined KS anyway because I hate the layout of the forums and before I ever had time to get familiar with the clutter there..I found a much better site...it was new but growing and I stuck with it and now it has over 4000 members. Because we offer free classifieds, Jeff banned any mention of Redtailboa.net on KS too...woopie who cares...we are still alive and well.

I'm extremely excited that there is a new burm morph that Bob hasn't sunk his claws into yet. I just hope that this line can be produced responsibly and without inbreeding them into the dirt. Virtually every other burm morph seems to be suffering greatly from the (herpmills) from which they originated from...Labs, Greens, Granites, Blondes...where are they all disappearing to? Seems to be a really bad chronic RI problem popping up in these animals sometime before they hit 3 years old....unfortunatly with a little powerfeeding and bad morals or lack of being informed...this is plenty of time to reproduce and pass this gene on. I would love to see some nice breeding projects where sibling pairs are not offered for sale. Sorry Bob, but just because you have so far been able to get your cut of pretty much every burm and retic morph found...this doesn't mean you are entitled to a monopoly. Also...finding out about the source of income from a man who owes you is one thing..He served his time and was released. He has a right to make a living. How else would he pay you? How does preventing him from making money help your cause? Who are you to even question what friends someone chooses? Just because you have a problem with him...this does not make him illegal to befriend. What if you went to jail for this harrasment that you are unleashing on Savannah? when you get out..is noone allowed to speak to you ever again because you are a convicted harrasser? I don't know Miller...I have read the info about him on your page. I certainly don't condone what he allegedly has done to you...allthough I don't condone inbreeding, powerfeeding and breeding for a genetic flaw such as amelanism either but unfortunatly at this time your contributions to our happy little herpworld seem to be legal...Not so sure now though...I think you may have stepped over the line a bit with harassment and she certainly has a good civil case. The man (Miller) has a nasty past. I could understand bashing her if she was part of his ring then and then hooked back up when he got out. The point is...he is out. He served his time. Until it is proven that he is breaking the law right now, then he has a right to have friends and Savannah certainly has the right to befriend him. even if he is an ex-con...he has experiences and contacts that are legit and still valuable information that shouldn't be lost ...just because it offends Bob that someone would ever be friends with a man that ripped off Bob.

Savannah, you are more than welcome to offer your animals for sale FREE of charge on our classifieds at redtailboa.net...I'll take an unrelated pair when they drop to under 200 bucks. Might be awhile huh? :)

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 03:53 PM

You know, maybe Savannah was helped by Jeff just to tick off Bob, hell, I would do that if I were Jeff. He can't run a snake business so he helps her do what she needs to run it. The $15,000 in snakes from an all honesty standpoint is not like $15,000,000 and while it's still a lot of money it's not so much you can't trust somebody that's a friend with. Whatever he is to us doesn't matter he's a friend to her.

Regardless, as far as I know Savannah has done nothing wrong and I've seen nothing to show anything else. Knowing isn't enough, OJ got let go and there was more to show he did it then there is to show Savannah did anything.

Now as far as your remarks about Adam and the mites. I for one have never heard anything of this as I am sure no one else has. Ive seen bobs animals at shows even bought a few from time to time and all were very clean animals 100% up to par.

Why are you addressing me and not Bob? You love to get into it with me but we have the other party in this thread Jason so now would maybe be a good time to ask the source instead of always trying to attack me, I doubt Bob would deny it and for that matter has yet to say it's never been in issue in his collection. Seems like a very silly waste of our time for you and I to act like children bickering over something when Bobs here, unless of course it's the bickering you were trying to start and not the facts you were trying to find.

Bob Clark

11-07-2003, 04:00 PM

Brett, Just because Miller has done his time doesn't mean he's satisfied his debt to me.

I"m trying to be a big boy about this thing but I can't let it go. In the summer of 1994 I sat here with a dozen het female ball pythons either gravid or incubating eggs. The ones that had hatched and some of the ones still incubating were sold and held with deposits. One day I came to work to find all of them gone, all the babies, all the eggs and all the adults. I had to go back and refund the deposits I'd accepted. There were very few albino ball pythons in those days and I had them all the day before! My life changed dramatically. It put my business on the rocks and caused a lot of hardship for me and my family.

You act as if there is an adversarial relationship between big breeders and their customers. At least, in my case, I have an interest in my customer's success. Maybe its because I'm a good guy and maybe its because I know if my customers do well they buy more animals from me. I don't expect to have a "monopoly" but only to compete for as much of the market as I can. This, in my book, is not a character flaw as you imply. I breed quality animals. I do it with as little inbreeding as possible and with good "morals", your implication to the contrary not withstanding.

Very often those in the reptile world (and the world in general) that succeed are often targets of those that didn't. Those that didn't rationalize that if a person has a big piece of the pie that somehow they got a piece of their pie. They take some pleasure in seeing successful people take a hit. Its been called "get even with'em ism". This view of life is not healthy. Don't succumb to it Brett. I"m just a guy that loves reptiles and loves this business.

Brett, I know we formerly had a link to your site on my website and now we don't. I don't have any links on my site now. I hope this wasn't the cause of any hard feelings.

MikeWilbanks

11-07-2003, 04:02 PM

You know, maybe Savannah was helped by Jeff just to tick off Bob, hell, I would do that if I were Jeff. He can't run a snake business so he helps her do what she needs to run it.

I can see why Jeff might take some evil pleasure in it, but why would Savannah want him involved? She had to know that involving a thief and felony animal smuggler in her new reptile business might have detrimental effects on its success.

TJEvans

11-07-2003, 04:24 PM

At the same time Bob, I also don't think it's right to use your "power" to strongarm a person out of the largest market on the internet. Regardless of your former relationship with Mr. Miller, it supposedly hasn't been proven that he is financially involved with Savanah's business. There IS a lot of speculation and ideas as far as how she got her license, the money to begin such a project, her AGE at getting involved in the project, etc. But there has been NO OBVIOUS mention of Jeff Miller making all of this possible. I would agree with Adam, that Miller may have coached her into this, helped her get the license, told her what to buy (perhaps knowing that YOU wanted it) all to get back at you.....I know that in Savanah's shoes, I probably would have gone along with it. Do you all think that Jeff Miller would stiff Savanah when his sole purpose is to make Bob's life hell?

If he makes ANY legit money, it goes to Bob. If he opens a business, the proceeds go to Bob. Basically, Jeff is back in the business of what he loves dealing with, reptiles, while at the same time, he doesn't need ot make ANY money at it....all he wants is a form of revenge.

Once again, this is all pure speculation though.

I just find it wrong that Savanah was revoked her account at Kingsnake because of speculation.

Incidentally, a while ago in the thread, somebody disputed the claim that KS doesn't control 90% of the reptile business. The problem here is you're looking at it from a consumer point of view. Under Private/commercial breeders alone there are 273 businesses listed. I'm not sure how many INTERNET reptile dealers there are, but I'm almost positive that it can't be more than 500 (once again, 273 doesn't include importers, rodents, educational, zoos, etc) Basically, Kingsnake is THE LARGEST resource for reptile related dealers to sell their goods. By Banning Savannah because of mere speculation, Jeff Barringer has denied her the right to use the LARGEST ONLINE REPTILE resource in order to enable her business to thrive.

I could understand everyones thoughts if it was PROVEN that Jeff Miller in fact PAID for these animals (that money is owed to Bob) or that the import license or contacts were EXCLUSIVELY Jeff Miller's. But the simple fact is......it CAN'T be proven. I have no problem with Jeff Barringer banning all known ciminals, but I also know that there are some on his site that ARE known (past) criminals. It's just that THEY weren't banned because nobody called in the "favor" to Jeff.

Once again, the subject of this post. Should Savannah have been REVOKED her posting rights on KS classifieds because of a suspected involvement with Jeff Miller who stole animals and owes money to Bob Clark, not Jeff Barringer........Bad decision on Jeff's part if you ask me. Drawing some parallels to Tony Cuerto too.

natas

11-07-2003, 04:26 PM

Just a quick FYI Bob

Yes we did have a link to your site...even a banner as a trade with your webmaster. The banner was no longer on your page so I removed it in fairness to all the paying customers on my site. Our link section still has you listed as it does with everyone else that has submitted there link. We offer this as a free service to anyone thats wants there name shown in our link section.

It wasn't out of hard feelings or anything like that...just fairness :)

And for my statement on this whole ordeal I will say that things are just getting interesting and I rather not post my opinion of the matter publically. I just hope something will get resolved and this war be over!

Natas
Owner of Redtailboa.net
The best free online reptile community

Bob Clark

11-07-2003, 04:32 PM

TJ, I'm not strongarming anybody. I have no idea why, or even if, Savannah was not allowed to post on Kingsnake.com

trisha

11-07-2003, 04:33 PM

This is the main question I would like to see answered.

Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

How did you plan on exposing her???

Where is the offer for snakes at $2000. at??

Bob Clark

11-07-2003, 04:46 PM

Tricia, I would have posted this same information on my website and posted a link from Kingsnake. I'm not sure what you don't understand about the $2000 dwarf Burmese. The snakes were offered to my customer in Europe who offered them to me. Simple.

Roger Jolly

11-07-2003, 04:52 PM

Bob,

With all due respect, we have a credibility issue here with your statements.

From: "Bob Clark" | Add to Address Book

To: "Savannah"
Subject: morphs webpagege
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:42:07 -0500

Savannah,
Still waiting for you call. Unless I hear from you today I will expose you and Jeff on Kingsnake. Bob Clark

It looks like two choices here interpretting this:

(1) You were bluffing (lying) to Savannah using this as a threat.

(2) You are lying to use saying you have no idea how Jeffie found out about Savannahs alleged link to Jeff Miller.

Are we to believe that this was all just a coincidence? Does Jeffie ban so many people so often that this just happened to take place around the time you were making your threat to Savannah?

Well, I have believed some whoppers in my time, but not real recently.

Was this part of the deal with Jeffie that you both would disavow any knowledge of each others actions? Another Mission Implausible?

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

trisha

11-07-2003, 05:05 PM

Maybe I read the E-mail wrong but it looks like this is from a customer telling you about Ms. Wong selling them for $2000.
I don't see MS. offering them to you for $2000. but for more and a month later.
So did you buy any???

Here's an email from one of my European customers:

----- Original Message -----
From: Au.bengali
To: Bob Clark
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: snake price list

Bob,
sorry, I did not know it was hollyday,
did you have the list with burmses for me ??

the dwarf burmese womes from one Islands from indonesia as far as know, and they grow only 2.50 ( +/-)
Miss Wong ask 2000$ for them ...

I would like the shipment next week if possible
regis

So if you were going to post a link on kingsnake to your forum, when were you plaN You sent that e-mail to her on the 21st of October. I see no message on your forum to link to and today is the 7th. Long enough to do it.first

Hues1

11-07-2003, 05:09 PM

Just playing the devils advocate...........

this was in Savannahs very first post in the beginning....

I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances

If you ask me, it seems as if she was implying that her account had been canceled.

Then she posts this.........
I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it

So which one is it ?

Although Bob did threaten to "expose" her connection with Miller to Jeff B. over at ks. Wether he did or not and wether Jeff B. did or did not cancel her account because of it....is left to be seen and proven if you look at Savannahs own posts.

So as devils advocate...it may very well be true that Bob thought her account had been canceled the same way I would've gathered her account got canceled if you read her 1st. post.

Hopefully that clears up the mystery of how Bob "knew" her account had been canceled.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 05:13 PM

Look, we have like five issues here.

1) The reason for the tread, Savannah being kicked off KS.

2) Bobs threats to hear, something he's avoided time and time again.

3) Jeff Miller and Bob

4) Savannah and Jeff

5) Peoples proven unwillingness to speak up against big breeders.

Webslave, can you help sort this all out so we don't have so many issues in the same thread. I can't tell what Bob and Savanna are avoiding and what they aren't reading.

Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

Be it Bob Clark, the Barkers, NERD or anything other big name Ritchie has never been fair with his interrogations, it's always a pretty one sided thing directed towards the underdog. Oh well, (hunches shoulders) some people need to stick with the majority.

ms_terese

11-07-2003, 05:13 PM

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe

There's another thread about Ritchie Luna that should explain why you probably won't hear from him on this thread, but that was a nice stab at Ritchie all the same. I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances You know, I had made the same assumption that her account had been canceled. I also don't understand what the "unusual suspicious circumstances" are, she never elaborated.

Hues1

11-07-2003, 05:23 PM

Although Bob did threaten to "expose" her connection with Miller to Jeff B. over at ks.

After re-reading my post....I realized I had jumped the gun, because no where did Bob ever say he was exposing her to Jeff B., he said "kingsnake" ...which could possibly mean the message boards.

My apologies.

Hues1

11-07-2003, 05:30 PM

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

Cheap shot....Ritchie has proven himself here time and time again to be fair and honest.

If you dont see it that way.....find somewhere else to TROLL.

Cheryl Marchek AKA JM

11-07-2003, 05:31 PM

This is all moving very fast, and I am confused. As Alex pointed out she first said:

"I am curious as to how many people out there have had their kingsnake classified account canceled with no reason and with unusual suspicious circumstances
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then:
I never said in my post my account was canceled and never said Jeff Barringer did it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEN Finally:

And here is email from Jeff Barringer just 2 days after bobs email above, saying “Savannah,
If you post an ad to sell anything I will expose your connection to Miller. I think this will not be good for your business. Bob Clark”

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this contradictory?

Someone needs to write this all into a book. I had no clue my hobby had so many dark corners.

herpetological

11-07-2003, 05:31 PM

It seems that there are several things that make you go Hmmm?
Savannah.... as far as I've seen, does not have a solid answer as to her banning from kingsnake. Before it's speculated we need to know exactly why? I was around when all this happened to Bob and can understand a long standing animosity towards Miller. It makes no sense at all that an 18 year old can jump right into the business and know what they are doing without an experienced person backing them up. I've imported for years and if I had all the money i've lost or been burned on I could retire. I've known Anson for years. If I were new in the business I would think twice. Considering the problems over the years that have gone on. Especially considering the money. It would make more sense that the Wong's were dealing with a known or previous customer. Nothing against Anson or his wife they have always made good. Just alot of things don't add up. It points towards Millers involvement.. That is why Bob is pushing so hard. I can't agree but, don't blame him. Now.... in regards to Kingsnake.. we all have a choice. If you don't agree with Jeff don't do business. If I lost my account it wouldn't slow me down a bit. Plenty of choices for advertising. It does help but, I've been in the business for over 25 years. I don't need to advertise. However, I'd be crazy to say I couldn't use the extra sales. It's just like people who say, "you took my customer". If you are supplying quality and support your customer will never go anywhere. It's only when they become disappointed with you that they go elsewhere. Same goes for websites/classifieds. Good luck with the project Savannh. Be careful with your associations. JMHO
Thanks Ray G. HBR

MikeWilbanks

11-07-2003, 05:41 PM

Maybe I read the E-mail wrong but it looks like this is from a customer telling you about Ms. Wong selling them for $2000.

You are reading the email wrong. I remember Bob called me and told me about the Dwarf Burmese a couple of months ago. He said that he had a customer in France that was offering to get them for him. He asked if I thought that they were interesting and I told him that I would be a little skeptical of them. That was the last thing I heard about them until Savannah sent them to her friend Julie to chase Bob down at the KC show and try to get him to buy them there. He looked at them, thought they were interesting, but not worth the money they were asking. At that point, he did not know of the Miller connection. This was not a project that Bob was dying to get. He thought that they were a little interesting. I had only minimum interest. He only became really interested when we found out that Miller possibly owned them.

Before Bob asked Savannah about Jeff Miller, she was very eager to sell them to him. As soon as he asked her about Jeff, she began running. Why not just say, "Jeff is a friend of mine". It was her lying that started the real suspicion? If she had nothing to hide, why did she act like it? Why is she hiding now and not on this thread?

So if you were going to post a link on kingsnake to your forum, when were you plaN You sent that e-mail to her on the 21st of October. I see no message on your forum to link to and today is the 7th. Long enough to do it.first

This forum thread made this all come out before the investigation into Miller and Savannah had been completed, so this was a little premature. I am sure that the information will be available when the investigation is complete.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 05:47 PM

Ritchie has proven himself here time and time again to be fair

You must have lost your mind! All I've ever seen him do was pick the popular side then run the other person into the ground without ever asking questions of the person people seem to be on the side of.

Savannah said her account was closed and I think quoted the email she got.

My account was closed in an email from Jeff. I was trying to find out what his motivation for deleting my ads was as I assumed I was just stepping on the wrong toes. When I emailed him to find out if I reposted the ad removing the part that violated TOS would be allowed he said no. When I emailed him asking him to just tell me he wouldn't allow the ad no matter what he closed my account.

He's a pouty little child and it shows in the way he runs his business. Jeff has been sued by smebody, I don't remember who but I had the link to the court papers. Maybe somebody else knows..

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 05:55 PM

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:53:00 -0500
From: "Jeff Barringer"
To:
Subject: Re: 16512 - Secure Online Credit Card Transaction

We are sorry but we will be unable to supply advertising services
to your business.

Here's that email with Savannah saying her account was closed. This was TWO Days after Bob said he'd let the cat out the bag to Jeff! Can anybody say this is just chance? Come on, Bob made the call, Jeff broke the law and Savannah is out an account.

This to me is a VERY clear violation of the RICO act and I honestly feel Savannah if what she's saying is true would/could win a court case against Jeff, something I would strongly support her doing! These are Mafia tatics!

Ken Harbart

11-07-2003, 06:28 PM

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.
Well, if you get down off your high horse and pull your head out of your ***, you'd know. However, since you're nothing more than an ignorant little troll, perhaps you'll never figure it out for yourself.

Ken Harbart

11-07-2003, 06:38 PM

This to me is a VERY clear violation of the RICO act and I honestly feel Savannah if what she's saying is true would/could win a court case against Jeff, something I would strongly support her doing! These are Mafia tatics!
Adam, do you know what it takes to actually have a RICO claim?

RICO claims cannot be based upon breach of contract, broken promises, negligence, defective product design, failed business transactions, or any number of other factual scenarios that may give rise to other claims under the common law. A RICO claim must be based on one of the criminal acts listed in 18 USC 1961(1).

RICO does not address one-time criminal activity. There must be a pattern of criminal activity, as defined by SCOTUS. The SCOTUS definition of "pattern" for purposes of RICO is that the criminal actions are related and continuous.

Hues1

11-07-2003, 06:41 PM

This was TWO Days after Bob said he'd let the cat out the bag to Jeff!

Where did Bob ever say this ???

I dont seem to be able to find a statement where he said he was going to tell Jeff B. specifically.

From what I've read, Bob only stated that he was going to expose Savannah over at KS. Which could very well mean publicly on the forums.

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Roger Jolly

Just where the hell is Ritchie Luna in this anyway? Oops, maybe this is too close to home for Ritchie and his self interests and he just doesn't want to step on that Bob Clark toe.

So I decide to spend time with my family and and my career and my studies and "retire" from moderating ALL the websites I moderate. Then all of a sudden Someone whose name is Jolly Roger. Who types like someone else wants me to jump in a thread I have not even read yet?

So what is it I am supposed to ask Bob?

You must have lost your mind! All I've ever seen him do was pick the popular side then run the other person into the ground without ever asking questions of the person people seem to be on the side of. Sorry Adam, it is not so.
I go with my gut feeling and ask questions from there.
You claimed to have a dead albino ball python. Where was your proof again? yeah that is what I thought.

You CLAIMED to NEVER buy from shows.......................
yeah that is what I thought.

P.S. Jolly Roger. You are right. I do have self interest. And that is to try and stay off the net. Spend time with my family. Spend time with my studies. Spend time furthering my career. So I do not know what the rest of the thread is about. But you guys can hash it out. I have better things to do.

And Adam. Remember when i brought up the fact the you sent me pictures of your wife? You said it was so last year and to basically quit obsessing about it.

Well wasn't also so last year that you got kicked off of kingsnake?

Just wondering why I can't talk about things from last year but you sure could.

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 07:00 PM

And for those idiots who missed me and missed my asking questions.

And for those idiots who SEEM to have a fake name

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28246

Read up. It answers why I am not around as much.

Hues1

11-07-2003, 07:05 PM

And for those idiots who SEEM to have a fake name

or......multiple screen names. I can certainly see at least 3 different screen names with the same writing styles and manners in which they respond to posts.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 07:06 PM

Ritchie, this thread's about Kingnsnake right? Seems like it was sort of on topic then to post about what happend to me with kingsnake.

I may have missed it but I haven't seen a "Adam's naked wife" thread and haven't looked into the porn sites you say you've started them at. Maybe you can talk that over in those sites as I doubt people here are interested in your sex life/interests.

Also, time to drop the ball python buddy, this isn't the place for that, if you still feel the need and it seems you do because you make it part of any thread I'm in then please feel free to bring that post back up. Otherwise, time to let it go buddy!

Last note, you're still bringing up where I buy animals, I haven't bought any in a long time, maybe you should give up on this or find somebody who will tell you I bought from them at a show, since you will not find anybody as there is nobody in years it's time to let it go! Move on my friend, move on..

Interesting the only points you bring up in this thread are me. I think this is start to come off as fairly unhealthy Ritchie.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 07:08 PM

And for those idiots who missed me and missed my asking questions.

And for those idiots who SEEM to have a fake name

since you're nothing more than an ignorant little troll

Webslave, is it okay for us to start talking to eachother like this again? I'm fairly sure most of us other then maybe Ritchie would get warning points for this type of behavor!

Up till those posts everybody in this thread has been pretty adult like.

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 07:26 PM

Also, time to drop the ball python buddy, this isn't the place for that, if you still feel the need and it seems you do because you make it part of any thread I'm in then please feel free to bring that post back up. Otherwise, time to let it go buddy! Hey big boy. Most of the places you post. You post something about your ball python. Or kingsnake... or NERD.

I guess you missed the point.
The point is you tell me to drop things from over a year ago.
And hear you are bringing things up from a year ago.
Get it yet

Up till those posts everybody in this thread has been pretty adult like. Yup pretty adult like.
Taking a stab at someone who has not even seen this thread.
Taking a stab at someone you did not think would be back.
News homeboy. My e-mails is full of people saying you little whiners are atalking about me.

Things must be rough at home Adam. You seem to be spending an enormous amount of time on the internet lately.

Also, time to drop the ball python buddy
Then it is also time for you to Drop the kingsnake thing (and I am not your buddy). Because as I remember. You posted that you knew you were gonna get kicked off when you CHOSE to break their TOS.

Savanah,
I have nothing to say....except. Nice comany you keep. Thieves and the wife of a smuggler. WOW. I am glad I do not have those "connections"

WebSlave

11-07-2003, 08:03 PM

In retrospect, perhaps I should have had the programmer I hired put in a self destruct mechanism in that warning points system. When a certain TOTAL number of warning points are issued, meaning this site has just totally gotten out of hand, the entire site would just melt down.

Pull this thread back on topic, please. If what you have to say is NOT on topic, then put a lid on it. I think there are a lot of people that would hate to see me lock down this thread because of the sideswipe bickering going on in it.

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 08:23 PM

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 08:26 PM

Ritchie, I'm not sure if you missed the title of this post, however you may wanna take a look at that. Bringing my wife up yet again has nothing to do with this! Bringing up issues with Kingsnake does!

Very good. It says kingsnake.
I brought up stuff that should not be here.
And I was wrong.

Can you tell me again how mentioning my name is of any help to this thread? This thread is about kingsnake. NOT Bob Clark.
And NOT ME.

and Adam.....it is not about the point system either.

If I get points for talking like I did.
you should get points for posting off topic.

This thread had NOTHING to do with me.................NOTHING

WebSlave

11-07-2003, 08:58 PM

Okay I don't get how those two comments don't warrent a warning point, I make an effort to not call people names because I feel the warning points are a reflection of our conduct here, I can't say it makes me happy to see that those rules apply to some and not others but it's your site and your right to issue points when and where you see fit.

That's real easy to answer: Because I don't read every blessed word of every blessed message on this board. In many cases, I can read the first 5 words of a message, know exactly where it is going to progress from there, and simply stop reading to go on to the next message.

Maybe sometime later on I will read the entire message, and if at that time I see it warrants warning points, I will then assess them. But no, I have no interest to read everything everyone posts here.

On the other hand, in some threads I have been in the position that if I assess ANYONE warning points, I have to assess them to EVERYONE! Heck with that. I don't have all day to play with the warning system. And sure as heck, if I missed assessing a point to even one person who deserved it, all the people who DID get points would scream bloody murder.

I've got a news flash for everyone: I don't live on, or for, this board! Most of the time I am working with the animals, but my computer is running nearly all day with this site open in a window. That DOES NOT mean I am sitting in front of the screen reading everything in here.

So please, police yourselves as much as possible. It gets me very weary having to remind people to act like adults when posting messages in public. Is that asking for too much?

Adam Block

11-07-2003, 09:07 PM

This thread is about kingsnake. NOT Bob Clark.
And NOT ME.

Then case in point! I don't see you telling Bob this thread isn't about Jeff Miller and weather Savannah knows him.

Ritchie, let's face it, you're like a groupie for me. The only person you have any interest in policing is me. I haven't seen a tread I posted in you haven't talked about my wife, NERD or if I didn't or didn't buy a snake from a show. Why don't you focus on something more productive then me, following me around and pointing out anything you don't like that I'm saying. Get over it best friend buddy boy, time for you to move on partner.

Roger Jolly

11-07-2003, 10:17 PM

Just a hunch here.

Quoted from Bob Clark.

Brett, I know we formerly had a link to your site on my website and now we don't. I don't have any links on my site now. I hope this wasn't the cause of any hard feelings.

Brett (JuliusSqueezer) or Natas - when exactly were those links pulled off of Bob Clarks site? And do you recall exactly what links were there before they were taken off?

I got a bad feeling about the answer to this, so I hope I am barking up a wrong tree.

WebSlave

11-07-2003, 10:20 PM

Enough.

Any messages posted from either one of you about the other in this thread will be deleted. Even if the rest of the message carries the secrets of the universe in it.

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 10:21 PM

Deleted - as per my warning. - WebSlave

HerpVenue

11-07-2003, 10:22 PM

Enough.

Any messages posted from either one of you about the other in this thread will be deleted. Even if the rest of the message carries the secrets of the universe in it.

.

whoops we hit return at the same time.

Sorry

JuliusSqueezer

11-07-2003, 10:34 PM

Brett (JuliusSqueezer) or Natas - when exactly were those links pulled off of Bob Clarks site? And do you recall exactly what links were there before they were taken off?

Honestly...I have no idea. While I am an admin at rtb.net...I have little or no interest in banner ads and never noticed when our banner dissapeared from Bob's site or when his dissapeared from ours. Ireally don't think any of this had to do with the topic of KS ditching people for political reasons though....nor did it have to do with bad blood between the 2 sites...from what Natas (Shane) stated earlier it was just a trade deal so if ours was pulled then Bob's was dropped from our site just to be fair to those who actually pay for ad space. Seemed reasonable enough to me. <shrug>

E2MacPets

11-08-2003, 12:15 AM

Savannah is also selling 100% het pied BPs that she claims to have produced. I guess anything is possible, right?

nicole russell

11-08-2003, 07:53 AM

Kingsnake is a forum to be avoided at all costs due to the horrible napolian complex of it's CEO Jeff Barringer.
It would not suprise me if the man was an animal hater as well as a people hater.
If you would like to hear more email me privately.
But in answer to your question: YES, others have problems with him and his staff and NO it's not you.

JungleHabitats

11-08-2003, 08:10 AM

Ok first lets address something if you want to come in and stand on a soap box and express things like you just spouted out .... lets have the cahoonas to express them in the open ok.No reason to post here and then be scared to finish your sentence.. if you have read this thread or any other ... or atleast the rules of this board you will find that you have stepped in the mudd already everyone else so far in this thread has readily voiced there thought and opinions of the whole fiasco so even though your new here please dont afraid to voice yours ok ... thanks

nicole russell

11-08-2003, 09:10 AM

I guess I wanted to state I had major problems with KS and at the same time not write a book about it unless someone wanted to read it.
You say I stepped in mudd---and I am new---well the latter is true (this is my first post) and perhaps I am stepping in mud. I was directed here by a few others because I was under the impression that people could express their views about ks or any other herp related organization and not be deleted .
I was always a big KS fan and never knew of anyone elses problems until I had a problem and found others. I feel it's important for people to speak out so others are aware of potential problems.
I have so far found people who were banned (I have left of my own accord BTW) for silly reasons, online breeders or stores who were loyal to KS in the old days and abused once KS became popular....others who had problems advertising like this person might have, and were treated like garbage.
I signed up today---and too quickly maybe---because if this post (or my previous one) is against the rules then I did not read that anywhere (again the error might well be my own).
Also I read this post from one person (savannah) and decided to answer it because it addressed a recent problem I encountered.
It was so far the only post I have read here aside from yours.
If you are a fan of KS.com I'm sorry if you are insulted but I do mean every word I have said.
NR

Hues1

11-08-2003, 09:48 AM

Nobody is trying to jump down your throat and I'm sure we'd all like to hear what you have to say. But there are certain rules that need to be followed...and one of them being, that you must provide details and circumstances in your post whenever you make a statement or accusation.

After you've been here for a while and realize how many people come on here just to abuse the board by posting false and inaccurate statements.....you'll understand why WebSlave put these rules into effect.

You say you in your first post.....

Kingsnake is a forum to be avoided at all costs due to the horrible napolian complex of it's CEO Jeff Barringer.

There are members here who feel the same way you do...but in order to have any credibilty, you must be willing to provide the details.

Welcome to the BOI ! Kick back, relax, and enjoy your ride !

JungleHabitats

11-08-2003, 10:19 AM

Sorry i didnt mean to come across they way you took it or the way i did ... when i first posted that i had just woke up ... read your post and saw this

Someone coming in the door who was obviously new to the board
Posting a problem they have with a person / enity / buisness
Then leaving the rest of us looking at a post that really went know where but to say in no uncertain terms " ill email you privately but who cares what the rest of them want to know"

While Posting the ACTUALL facts are not manditory here just are preffered and will overall substaniate you claims and in that will give people a reason to beleive what you post/and why to beleive it .So many people have came to the BOI and made a "blanket statement" as you did only to never post any information to back there claim or information as to why they had posted there claim. And that in turns leaves the rest of us wandering why that person even made a post along the lines they did if there not going to provide more indepth information as to there post .

Please accept my apology for my harshness this morning and i guess next time ill have to smoke my morning Marlboro and have a few more glasses of coke before i open my fingers to the keyboard ...
Thanks oh yeah ..... Welcome to the BOI ...
Lifestyles of the Confused and Dazed :D

Classic Dum's

11-08-2003, 11:04 AM

napolian complex of it's CEO Jeff Barringer. This statement reminds me of someone else here! hummm I wonder.................

Adam Block

11-08-2003, 03:51 PM

you must provide details and circumstances in your post whenever you make a statement or accusation.

This holds true when you start a thread but I think you can come into any thread and just post your feelings on the person without saying why.

I feel a little bad for Jeff, you never know when you step on toes whos they are. The hobby has a lot of big people and a lot of people that will get big. Jeff's stepping on any toe he sees fit will turn around to hurt KS one day.

There is no motivation better then revenge and weather it's Jeff that motivates somebody to build a better site or whatever I think Jeff would have been better off just being fair and treating people with respect from the start. After all, you can only afford so many plasma TVs to buy your friends with:)

Roger Jolly

11-08-2003, 04:46 PM

Ritchie - I did not mean for that to come across like it did. I apologize.

It looks like my thoughts on the links being removed from Bob Clark's site were not true. At least not yet. But I think what I was thinking of is inevitable, and I just felt that it had started already.

Based on what I have seen so far, some predictions are in order concerning Jeffie and his megalomania.

(1) Eventually all sites being a storefront on kingsnake.com will not be allowed to have links to other undesirable sites.

(2) Eventually any advertisers posting on this site, and others considered by Jeffie as being undesirable, will not be allowed to have commerical accounts on kingsnake.com.

(3) Eventually anyone advertising on those listed undesirable sites will not be allowed to advertise on kingsnake.com.

(4) Eventually your choices for participation in discussions and advertising will be (a) kingsnake.com, or (b) any other site, but not both.

(5) Eventually kingsnake.com will file lawsuits in an attempt to suppress competition as well as any open discussion concerning that site taking place on other sites.

It is only a matter of time for Jeffie to feel that he has the power to be able to enforce these dictates. He would do it today if he thought he could get away with it. I am certain his banning people and censoring sites without much of a public outcry (and believe me, what is posted here is only a tiny drop in a big bucket) is encouraging him along this pathway.

Here's another interesting angle. Is Jeffie trying to make inroads to being sponsor for the various reptile shows around the country? Why would he want to do that? Wouldn't it certainly be dandy for business if he had control over who could or could not participate in shows as well as have a thriving online business only through his approval? Talk about having a finger on the pulse of an entire industry! Plus the power to squeeze that pulse off.

Already on this thread I think I saw someone post that a business is only legitimate if it advertises on kingsnake.com. And who has the final say on who can do that? So in all practicallity, what this person is saying (sorry, I can't recall who made that quote), is that a business is only legitimate if Jeff Barringer approves of it.

Now isn't that just a dandy state of affairs?

Wilomn

11-08-2003, 05:01 PM

jolly, I'm still waiting on the answers to my previous questins to you. You gonna answer up or what? Something to hide?

How is it that your prognostication is of such certainty that you post it here as "The Laws that Will Be?"

Why do you care so much about jeff and ks? What's YOUR motivation? Still trolling?

While your posts may have some merit, questionable at best at this point, they have nothing to back them up. Do you actually have any facts or do you just build up pressure until you spout and then hide until pressure builds up again?

I still think, as I have from long before I ever got a whiff of you, that ks is not the only avenue to sell or promote yourself on. I'm pretty sure I'm still living in America, unless So. Cal. secceeded in the recent past and I missed it, which means that even if he does all you say I am still free to do as I will. I can start my own site to compete with him or do shows to compete with him or just say NO.

So, once again, what's the deal with you and ks? Do you breed or even have any reptiles? If so, what? Do you sell any animals on ks? Were YOU banned by jeff or does the flavor of that toe in your mouth bother you?

By the way, just because someone else says something like a business is only legitimate if they advertise on ks does not make it true. You seem to talk out both ends with freely interchangability. I say it isn't so. Does that make me right and the other person wrong? Circular, isn't it.

How about something to back up this fishing expedition you're on? Or, are you perhaps another of the ks henchmen out trying to see what others think of jeff and ks by trolling and then taking those who respond and making their responces available to jeff and his staff? I see no white charger but I do smell a bait bucket everytime you post. (it means you're no knight in shining armor)

Facts? Got any? Hmmmmm?

Wes Pollock

Roger Jolly

11-08-2003, 05:12 PM

Wes, I think my motivation is crystal clear to those with the brains to be able to figure it out.

Why don't you go out back and lift something heavy?

WebSlave

11-08-2003, 06:06 PM

Boy, talk about clouds having a silver lining.

Someone whom JeffB must have REALLY pissed off just made me a very lucrative offer of my KINGSNAKES.COM domain name. I have to admit that I never really looked at it as anything of value, but the chuckle factor I got out of having it was just about priceless to me.

Maybe I'll put the name up for auction on ReptiBid ..... :toiletcla

Wilomn

11-08-2003, 07:34 PM

Well jolly, like it says, I may not be very smart but, it seems to me that you have yet to answer a single question I've asked you. Go ahead and pretend for a moment that I am unable to, no doubt from the clarity of your written word which is also no doubt every bit as clear as your thinking process, make out just what your motivation is and say it real slow and plain for me. Do you think you could do that? Oh, and maybe answer a question or two that I've posed to you a time or two in the recent past.

And by the way, I'm always highly amused by people that can't get over the fact that I can lift heavy things. Are you, by chance short and bald? It does seem to happen with those guys a disproportionate amount of the time, them being envious of my abilities, so to speak, that is.

So, jolly, any facts THIS TIME?

Wes Pollock

WebSlave

11-08-2003, 07:46 PM

Please note that this thread is NOT about the people posting in it unless those people are directly part and parcel tied to the original topic statement.

I have made statements before about people sniping at other people posting in threads, and I am ready to start slinging warning points to try to get you all (you all know who you are) to get this practice out of your systems once and for all.

How much clearer do I need to be about this?

Wilomn

11-08-2003, 07:54 PM

My appologies Webslave.

Wes Pollock

JuliusSqueezer

11-08-2003, 08:19 PM

Speaking of warning points...I fully understand where most of mine came from...long story...but why do I have warning points for inappropriate advertising...I make snakehooks...I placed some up for sale in the appropriate forum...I don't get it. I noticed the ad was removed but I didn't find the pm until yesterday. I don't frequent this site every day or even every week...did I step ont he toes of another snakehook maker person here? If so, sorry.

Oh...and so this post isn't totally off topic...Kingsnake.com is all a communist plot to control the hobby and to keep us all down. Bob Clark is a herp version of a puppy mill...I don't speak from jealousy. I have no desire to be communist nor do I desire to run a herp mill. And I may be totally wrong...just saying how I see things. As it stands, there is still no PROOF that savannah is a front for Miller. If she prooves out to be a front....well then that's just wrong. If she accepted help from Miller as far as connections and/or advice but that's as far as it went...so what? I see no foul there....just my thoughts as an unbiased outsider looking in.

WebSlave

11-08-2003, 09:08 PM

Brett - part of your post was an very obvious plug for another website. That is inappropriate advertising. Read it again with an objective viewpoint. Although I have nothing at all against the website you mentioned (matter of fact I am running a banner ad for it now), I am trying to keep pretty strict controls over what is posted within the BOI.

I was VERY tempted to just delete those sections of text in your message, but I really do not want to get involved with editing someone else's words. I would rather delete an entire message than to do that, which obviously I have not done in your case.

The BOI is obviously a high traffic area, and MANY people would like to put in a plug for their site here. It is entirely welcome in the signature area, but within the text of messages, no, it is not appropriate.

Hope that explains my position sufficiently.

Addendum: No, I did not delete ANY posts you have made, so I have no idea what you are talking about in reference to snake hooks. The warning points were for inapproprite posting HERE in the BOI.

nicole russell

11-08-2003, 09:43 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hues1
[
B]...and one of them being, that you must provide details and circumstances in your post whenever you make a statement or accusation.

I am not a breeder but I was a very active active member on many forums at KS. I maintain a great relationship with a few online breeders and suppliers.
One breeder in particular became a good friend and for an early holiday gift I decided to place an ad on his behalf on KS. I have NEVER placed an ad in my life but I have placed many many online orders --some that have gotten screwed up in a major way---one was in actual litigation. (although the tried and true are wonderful)
You place an ad on kingsnake (I was attempting to sponsor a forum for $107.75) and it takes paypal. I went through the process of paying and nothing happened after that, meaning no questions as to who the ad was for where it would go---just "give me the $ ". I believed it to be a rectifyable mistake, so I emailed the only address I had at the time JEFFB...it was a point and click on the paypal reciept so it was no error.
I got no response.
I then emailed someone within the website, and again, got no response.
Mind you the last time I patiently waited days for a response from each person on a different site, I almost got taken and that was how legal action came about---I did get my money but it took a while.
Bottom line was with no response again I emailed yet another link and finally someone directed me through the proper channels.
That is not the end of this very stupid story either.
When the SP Link was finally up, I I notice it looked like crap. It was up with 3 other links and did not look the way I wanted it to look and honestly was not even noticable the way it was done.
I then VERY nicely emailed KS to ask if it was possible to make it appear more like the other two they had done.
This was a gift, and neither I or the recipient was happy with the outcome.
No answer again.
I emailed more people with no answer.
I then emailed Jeff.
I got an answer...
I could go back and give you word for word because I saved all the emails...but he wrote something like:
"Done. In the future try writing ONE email to ONE person my staff is overworked blahblah blah"....again if anyone wants direct quotes I will provide them. He also lied and claimed I never email him.
I wote back as nicely as possible---that if ANY of the staff reccieved an email and was in the process of fixing a problem the proper response would be " We recieved your request, and will look into it" or something ---ANYTHING. But not one person ---well ok---one person--the same person that helped te first time emailed me back but that was after Jeff.
Jeff emailed another nasty pathetic email and at this point I realized I was not dealing with a good buisness man OR an experienced buisness owner. Like I mentioned previously, I deal with online people at least 2 times a month for purchases---and that's not counting any social emails exchanged.
Being I had seen who I was delaing with (never argue with a very large baby with a bit of power)--I said "Listen we disgree---period. I think we should stop here, and carry on---
have yourself a great week, I am off to catch a plane" making a mental note never to deal with KS again.
As I am getting ready to sign off and jump into a cab---he emails me saying my ad is pulled and he will refund my money in a few days. (whic I am still waiting for)
Period end of story. That's after I already "suprised" my friend with an ad and after I attempted to calm down and treat Jeff like the retart that he obviously is....you know talk slow and don;t teash the monkey type thing.
Someone tell me---my father was a CEO before he passed away...my husband is the president of 2 corps...niether has the time to argue with clients. And neither would agree that that is good buisness.
But then again they have been in it alot longer and realize things that Jeffster does not---yet.
I know I am not a great source of buisness for him on the surface---but I am LOYAL to my sources and YES I was the moron with the KS bumber sticker on my brand new car....I removed it today. And even though I am not banned I am boycotting, because quiet reading is points in the napolian's wallet/
Anyone know what the cost to advertise in Reptiles mag BTW?
I still owe a gift to my friend.

Thanks
N R

"Tryng to save someone from thier own stupidity is like trying to teach a pig to how to dance---it wastes your time and annoys the pig"

JuliusSqueezer

11-08-2003, 10:00 PM

How can I read it again if you deleted it? :) The only ad I have ever placed here was for my hooks...it is gone. So I could only assume that's the thread I got the warning for for "inappropriate advertising" As far as mentioning another site, I guess it's only ok to mention one that I don't like? I wasn't aware of this...I'll try to be a good boy from now on...I'm learning. :)

Suncoast Herpetological

11-08-2003, 10:28 PM

"I never joined KS anyway because I hate the layout of the forums and before I ever had time to get familiar with the clutter there..I found a much better site...it was new but growing and I stuck with it and now it has over 4000 members. Because we offer free classifieds, Jeff banned any mention of Redtailboa.net on KS too...woopie who cares...we are still alive and well."

Bret

I believe the Webslave is referring to this portion of a post you made earlier in this thread. Not an ad you had posted. It does plus you site rather unabashedly.

Ken Harbart

11-08-2003, 10:41 PM

Yep, John is correct. The warning points were in regards to a reply earlier in this thread, and not a classified post.

Ken Harbart

11-08-2003, 10:47 PM

Let me ammend/clarify my earlier reply. I would be more inclined to believe that it was the portion of the reply that John did not quote (the closing statement of that particular reply) that resulted in warning points. Then again, it may have been the totality of the opening and closing statements.

Suncoast Herpetological

11-08-2003, 11:04 PM

I missed that part Ken but I definitely see your point

Adam Block

11-09-2003, 12:50 AM

Someone whom JeffB must have REALLY pissed off just made me a very lucrative offer of my KINGSNAKES.COM domain name.

Yeah, I had many people contact me about kingsnakesucks.com and jeffbarringersucks.com! I thought long and hard about what to do and decided my best bet was to email Jeff and see if he'd grown up at all. I told him he could have the domains free of charge so they couldn't be used against him. Of course, in the spirit of any and all good pouters there was no responce!

he emails me saying my ad is pulled and he will refund my money in a few days. (whic I am still waiting for)

Seems to be a trend! Jeff is showing a habbit of offering a refund then not providing it! Oh well, I think karma is an amazing thing and it will catch up with the poor guy! Kinda feel sorry for the little fellow in all honesty.

"Sometimes the man makes the business, sometimes the business makes the man, when the latter happens it's bound to fall like a house of cards"

Only a matter of time before the way Jeff's treating what would have been loyal customers catches up with him. He will loose KS because of it. That's the reason I'm at peace with the situation, it's nice to sit back and watch a fool ruin himself.

JuliusSqueezer

11-09-2003, 01:04 AM

So that I am clear on this...It is ok to mention another site if you are bashing it...but not ok to mention one that you like even if it is relevant to the thread? ok that's a fun rule...and some of you guys complained about our curse filter lol...I wasn't plugging ***.net though...I was just mentioning our own conflict with JB's site because actually that is the only experience I have with JB's site...My main reason for not liking it has nothing to do with politics. I just prefer the PHP type forums like this one and the one I'm not allowed to mention again over those annoying clutterd cluster threads...Is Kingsnakes.com going to have PHP? I'm assuming it's ok to mention a site that you yourself plugged the sale of earlier.

sorry again if I offended anyone. crunch crunch crunch <---me walking on eggshells.

Supertramp1979

11-09-2003, 08:46 AM

I dont get it. Why so many posting rules? Cant do this cant do that. The constitution protects our right to say WHATEVER the hell we want. Why do swears get bleeped out? Are people that sheltered? I hate people like you. You dont like it take it down. And webslave your no better than jeff with all these rules. Why cant someone plug a site? Use a link? Post a KS "related" picture? You think that people will stop coming here? I think Ill open up a forum where you can say ANYTHING at ANYTIME without the fear of being deleted, or pulled due to a violation, not providing name. If someone wants to be anonomous, great. Were talking about the damn internet. You cant prove who I am so if I say im "abe lincoln" how the hell are you going to know anyway? Rules rules rules its not the 50s people. And if I get pulled I could care less because I dont even post here anyway.

brucestephenson

11-09-2003, 09:01 AM

Are you really a member of the band Supertramp?

Sasheena

11-09-2003, 09:54 AM

The rules that Rich has on this site are part of why I very much like to come here. I am not forced to read or see profanity. I do not have to wade through a bunch of foul mouthed garbage to try to figure out a message. As a high school teacher, I hear enough profanity (but not in my classroom).. I don't choose to expose myself to it in my personal life. Rich has no compulsion just because he is in the United States to offer full free speech to everyone. It's his playground, he can make the rules.

Speaking of the rules, I am also grateful to them. from the full name rule down to the "post the whole ad, and not the link" rule are all worthwhile. The full name rule has kept me from doing business with bad guys, and you have no idea how frustrating it is to read a thread all about an advertisement, when the advert is completely inaccessible. You get two people debating over the condition of the animal in the photo, with two opposite viewpoints and you have to see the photo to make your own opinion, but if it's not available, then what good is the thread?

I've been to sites that allow any sort of language and so forth. I never went back. Heck, I use profanity from time to time, but you can be certain that EVERYONE listens when I do, because it's so rare for me to use it.

One of the best things about the internet... if you don't like a website, you don't have to go there.

Supertramp1979

11-09-2003, 10:11 AM

Im a high school student myself. No I am not rick davies of supertramp ha. I do like them however, a lot. I would like to ask what Is so bad about profanity? Is it because the actual "sound" of the word is bad to your ears? Or is it because youve been instilled that its a bad word, so you automatically tense up when you hear it or read it? Whats in a word? Your own vision essentailly- its like you people make a bad word bad so you have something to know is "bad". Ive beed around the F word so much its lost its meaning, and it isnt a bad word anymore! You should really try it -all the bad words become unimportant. I dont swear much myself, but I do when im mad with no problem. Because im so used to these bad words I actually use them less than youd think. But I dont even care about the profanity. Im more interested in why you cant talk about other websites here? How many times a day do you think you are lied to by the internet? Such jealous politics on the internet though sigh

Suncoast Herpetological

11-09-2003, 10:53 AM

No one has any problem with talking about other websites here but this particular site sell advertising to help defray costs. Discussion is not an issue but shamelessly plugging your site and inviting people to come to your competing site without paying for the privelege of advertising here is.

If Bret wants to purchase a banner ad and invite people to come post on his classifieds i am pretty sure Rich would be happy to accomadate him.

As to the unrestrained swearing and sniping at each other...two words...pointless and counterproductive. I have been on sites like those and after a while it gets very old listening to everyone bash each others mother.

Ken Harbart

11-09-2003, 11:04 AM

Ah, to be young and think you know it all.

The constitution protects our right to say WHATEVER the hell we want.
I find such ignorance of the Constitution and Bill of Rights by today's youth to be rather disturbing. The First Ammendment has no applicability whatsover to what's said on a privately owned and operated forum.

Even if we were talking about a government entity, the BoR does not afford you the right to say "whatever" you want. In other words, freedom of speech is not an absolute right. Rather, they can restrict cerain forms of speech if society as a whole has a compelling interest.

If the rules of this site are so unbearable to you, you are free to leave. As such, this thread is not the place for this discussion. If you want to discuss the merits of rules, do it in the feedback forums. Any furthere replies on this tangent in this thread will be deleted.

Supertramp1979

11-09-2003, 12:30 PM

I know this will be deleted. But if it is, that means you read it, and thats all I want. I know the constitution doesnt protect freedom of speach in private areas. I was just asking why these guys in particular were uptight about it. If I thought constitution protected everything, public or private, I would be way more upset. Also, you guys say I get flagged for being off-topic...but you dont seem to realise that EVERYTHING on this bloody list is off topic to the original post!!! So did bob clark get flagged? Probably not. Sorry to waste your time anyway

brucestephenson

11-09-2003, 02:11 PM

No, not a waste of time. I believe that a forum may at some point meet the criteria of being a publication or actually a public forum or media, if I'm remembering my civics and history classes correctly.
I know that there are probably some professors or even a constitutional attorney who may be listening. Am I too far off base?
We have certainly seen groups challenge newspapers, magazines, and television stations or even networks over refusal of advertising and prevail. Since the internet is only in it's infancy, I believe there will be some very interesting court challenges on the subject of banning and refusal of advertising in the near future.

HerpVenue

11-09-2003, 02:15 PM

And if I get pulled I could care less because I dont even post here anyway.
thank you for posting on here about how you don't post here............................huh?

So did bob clark get flagged? Probably not.
Bob Clark's post give background to the poster. it is VERY relevant in my opinion.

If some known liar made a post about me. I would sure hope someone out there would give a little history on the poster.

p.s. not saying the original poster is a liar. I am just citing an example.

Darin Chappell

11-10-2003, 02:35 PM

In referrence to Ritchie, it was written a few pages back, saying:

"All I've ever seen him do was pick the popular side then run the other person into the ground without ever asking questions of the person people seem to be on the side of."

Heh . . .heh

Well, I guess that particular fellow was not around when the "Thread of Infamy" came about and Neil, the once Golden Boy of the BOI, showed his true colors to us all. ANYTIME people say there is a clique here, or that we just look out for the popular opinion and only act according to the blowing of the wind, I just smile. I know right away that such statements can only be made from ignorance.

As to the rest of this back and forth, the original poster is not going to explain anymore of her situation than she has, folks. So, all the rest of these pages are summed up for me by three words:

Yadda, yadda, yadda!

KJUN

11-10-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Supertramp1979
I was just asking why these guys in particular were uptight about it.

COPPA laws prevent a removal of all such rules by people like Rich and JeffB. Business practices require certain rules. People don't follow those rules, and they can get banned - from this site or Jeff's or.....

Is the anger here because Jeff does enforce his rules, doesn't enforce them, or Rich/Bob/Savannah have different rules on their site? LOL. The 1st Amendment was written to allow the public media to be the watchdogs of our government without getting imprisoned (sorry for the over-simplification, Ken, but I'm sure you understand. BTW, love the new signature). It has NOTHING to do with making someone like JeffB let anyone post anything they wanted in his classifieds ads. If that was the whole basis of this thread - which it apparentlyk wasn't - then most people would have ignored it.

I think this thread doesn't have a topic any more....lol.

WebSlave

11-10-2003, 07:19 PM

Is the anger here because Jeff does enforce his rules, doesn't enforce them, or Rich/Bob/Savannah have different rules on their site? LOL.

Not quite. My attitude in this matter stems from the obvious fact that JeffB feels his "rules" encompass what people do on their own external sites as well as on his own kingsnake.com. His blocking my domain names stemmed entirely from that situation.

Besides stating what happened, it is not my intent to get into a pissing duel over the ethics of his position. If anything, it did more to spur me on to throw more effort into building this site then anything else I can think of, so quite likely it was a good thing to have happened.

However, from what I am reading here, other people seem to have issues with JeffB of a different sort. IMHO.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 12:11 AM

I will say and promise, I solely own Morph Specialties, INC. I found the above quote on the website of Morph Specialties. In it she has a special page for Bob Clarks so called harrasment. hhhhmmm Bob does not seem to have a special page for her. it kinda makes me wonder who s really harrassing who.

Registrant:
Morph Specialties
12856 S. Zuni rd.
Buckeye, Arizona 85326
United States

Registered through: Fat Boy Domains
Domain Name: MORPHSPECIALTIES.COM
Created on: 18-Aug-03
Expires on: 18-Aug-04
Last Updated on: 18-Sep-03

Administrative Contact:
Sernas, Savahhan morphspecialties@yahoo.com
Morph Specialties
12856 S. Zuni rd.
Buckeye, Arizona 85326
United States
(602) 206-6919
This is the registration information on the website name of Morph Specialties.
It is interesting to note that she does not know how to spell her name.
Interesting also that the phone number given is a cell phone.

Well I checked out the address and came up with this
Jamie St Vincent
12856 S Zuni Rd
Buckeye, AZ 85326
(623) 386-4558

Also I did a search for a Savannah Sernas in Buckeye........Came up with NOTHING

Also I did a search for this corporation through the website of the
Arizona Corporation Commission
State of Arizona Public Access System
I found no such corporation

DISCLAIMER The above information is not a violation of any privacy act. It is all available through the internet and is all PUBLIC RECORD

Second Disclaimer The information contained in all my serches through white pages as well as the Arizona Corporation Commission Website might all be old information. So take the information (or lack thereof) with a grain of salt

Adam Block

11-11-2003, 12:29 AM

I mis-spell my own name all the time when I'm typing too fast. Heck, even Bob made an error in his name in this thread.

Also, the zip code given is not Buckeye (makes me think it's just the wrong address or something) and the arial photo of the house well, shows nothing. Not that I thought it would but I wanted to look.

It's already been said there's no corp in AZ owned by her and that she shows no criminal record.

I already said to find out if she's a NV corp as I'd bet money that's where she incorporated.

Not that I agree with her or think she's right or wrong but if you're going to spend time looking into things figer out why her zip/town don't match and if her corps in NV?

Also, would be odd to have your cell phone zip in Phoenix different for your home and cell. Not uncommon or anything but it just makes me think it's a wrong address or fake.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 12:46 AM

Also, the zip code given is not Buckeye (makes me think it's just the wrong address or something) and the arial photo of the house well, shows nothing. Not that I thought it would but I wanted to look.

Actually it depends on which search engine you use.

on one it shows the zip as Buckeye.

on another it shows the zip as Rainbow.

That is why I always use multiple search tools (websites)

It could be a suburb or something

It's already been said there's no corp in AZ owned by her and that she shows no criminal record.

I already said to find out if she's a NV corp as I'd bet money that's where she incorporated..
Like I said before. I should not have been mentioned in this thread. I was out of it and not involved and have not read it all up to know. Anyway back on topic.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 01:05 AM

Name: MORPH SPECIALTIES, INC.
Type: Corporation
File Number: C26200-2003
State: NEVADA
Incorporated On: October 24, 2003
Status: Articles Filed
Corp Type: Regular
Resident Agent: MICHAEL KAPLAN (Accepted)
Address: 1504 CASTLE WALL

LAS VEGAS NV 89117-

I am not a corporation and do not know what a Resident Agent Stands for

Ken Foose

11-11-2003, 01:25 AM

A resident agent of a NV corporation is the person who gets the mail, the person in charge of the articles of incorporation, and is basically a name to sue if something goes wrong. All corporations in NV must have a resident agent that lives in the state of NV.

Adam Block

11-11-2003, 03:11 AM

Okay Ritchie! Now I will give you some praise for finding something nobody else including myself could!

A resident agent of a NV corporation is the person who gets the mail, the person in charge of the articles of incorporation, and is basically a name to sue if something goes wrong. All corporations in NV must have a resident agent that lives in the state of NV.

The resident agent can't be sued for something the corp does. The resident agent is basicly hired for a fee of maybe $100-$500 a year to be there normal business hours so if the corp is sued the papers can be accepted or signed for by them.

As I said, this is very telling to me. NV corp doesn't mean you're up to no good but being up to no good means a NV corp if you catch my drift.

I said from the start she incorporated in NV and that was my thinking only because if I were up to no good I would have picked it and most do.

Not that we know much more about this person based on this facts but we do know a few things.

1) She incorporated I would assume to cover herself with the intention of doing something she shouldn't. Corps are not an extension of you like a normal business so if you ask me she felt like she would need to make sure she couldn't be touched for what the corp did.

2) She picked NV for a reason.

Well, regardless we still don't know nothing but to stay away from her before she can do any damage.

Ken Foose

11-11-2003, 05:42 AM

The reason she picked Nevada is because to incorperate here is cheap, very cheap. It's also very easy, no background checks etc. And yes sir Mr. Block, it is to have papers served to sue in case something goes wrong. And yes sir, it is the resident agent that has his name on the law suit. And yes sir, I know this because I'm the resident agent of a corperation in Nevada, and I have had it sued, and I was named in the lawsuit along with it. Please don't correct me when you don't know what you are talking about pal. And, just because you incorperate in Nevada does not mean you are up to something shady either. It's because it's cheap and fast. I noted from Richies post that the business in question has been incorperated for less then a month. I would be interested in seeing who the shareholders of this business are. For tax and legal purposes, a LLC would have been the more logical way to go, and would have had the same effect as a corperation protection wise. A LLC is more geared for individuals, a corperation more for multi investors that own stock in the business, which would indicate more then one person with a financial interest in the business.

brucestephenson

11-11-2003, 09:15 AM

Tens or hundreds of thousands of people incorporate in Nevada. If you will recall, at the height of the stock market boom, radio talk show hosts like that guy who used to drive taxis urged their listeners to incorporate in Nevada. It is definitely a legitimate financial strategy.
Besides, the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of association. Just because you know or do business with someone with a poor background or reputation does not mean you are that person, or are responsible for his misdeeds.

Suncoast Herpetological

11-11-2003, 09:22 AM

The Articles of Incorporation should be available obline if someone has the time to dig them out. Generally the website is a page on the main State site. At least it works that way in Florida. All of that information is public record.

Suncoast Herpetological

11-11-2003, 09:58 AM

The interesting thing is that according to the Nevada Secretary of States website, they did not file a list of officers at all. I wonder why? Due to the fact that the Corporation was only formed a few weeks ago, the Articles may not yet be available online but I am sure they will be in the near future. I tried both Savannah's and Jeff Millers names in the search engine under Officers of Corporations and came up blank.

This just gets better and better.

MikeWilbanks

11-11-2003, 10:40 AM

Besides, the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of association. Just because you know or do business with someone with a poor background or reputation does not mean you are that person, or are responsible for his misdeeds

This is very true. The Constitution protects you from criminal prosecution because of an association. But, if the corporation has a shareholder or officer with a 2.4 million dollar judgement against him, then his shares can be seized as part of the satisfaction of the debt. Also, if Jeff Miller were a shareholder or officer of the Morphspecialties corporation, it would seem to support the front theory.

Bob Clark

11-11-2003, 11:11 AM

I have never harassed Savannah. Everyone has now seen every one of my emails to her. I've been polite and never raised my voice on the phone. She promised to call and talk this through but she didn't Instead she got a court order to keep me from contacting her. She cannot support her position on this thing and has gotten the court to stop the dialog rather than give me the information I want. My lawyer in Arizona says that this kind of court order can be had for the asking. There is no requirement of proof from Savannah. Savannah's Petition for Injunction against Harassemnt is a hand written form that mentions 3 emails on 10/21/03 and when asked on the form what harm might might come as a result of the injunction not being granted Savannah answered " harassment, theft, slander". She says on her web page that I threatened to take her animals, this is nonsense. If the court were to determine that the animals belonged to Jeff Miller, the court would take them on my behalf. I told Savannah that I meant her no harm and only had interest in her and "her" business if Miller was associated with it. She told me she didn't even know the name Jeff Miller.

A corporation can be formed in Arizona for $60. There may be some benefit for her to incorporate in Nevada. I don't know what it is. I see that Savannah has been on line through this discussion the last few days but she hasn't responded. She is under no obligation to respond but it does leave many questions unanswered and conclusions drawn from this may or may not be valid.

W.Wedeking

11-11-2003, 11:34 AM

Legally, once she stated that she did not want you contacting her again, the minute you hit send, it was harrassment.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 11:40 AM

Morph Specialties Inc., was started and is owned by me, Savannah Sernas; in the very hot state of Arizona. After a few years of working very hard to obtain the best connections we are finally able to offer you the very best in wild caught morphs. The Morph market has become very strong in the last 10 years due mainly to Ball Pythons. I value all your business and am willing to prove our quality. Though we feel our animals speak for themselves.

We specialize in all Pythons, Balls, Retics, Bloods, Burms etc. We also on occasion get morphs of all reptiles and amphibians. Let us know what you are looking for and with time there is a chance it will pop up. We almost exclusively deal with wild caught morphs unless they are “farm” hatched. We have all the main countries covered and can obtain morphs from all of them including Asia, Africa, and Central and South America.

Let me personally thank you for looking at our webpage and please keep in touch.

Savannah Sernas
Morph Specialties Inc.

Well someone already said it. AnyONE can incorporate.
She is 18. According to her She (We/US) have been working to on getting the best connections for YEARS.

At that age, the only thing I wanted to connect to was the opposite sex. And if I were to start a business......connecting with shady characters would have been the last thing on my mind. Unless of course one of thsoe connections was a shady character who was able to manipulate me.

Wow ....she is "connected" to some of the "finest" names in the industry.
While being connected to someone and having friends does not mean you are doing anything wrong.......it does however make you raise your eyebrows. Being connected to one person is kinda okay. Sometimes it happens...people do and will have friends. But being connected to two of those names does start raising some heads. Then also the fact of being in the same city (Buckeye) as another one of those names is not really relevant......Until the truth comes out and we finally know where all the "facts" stand.

Personally I would not have known how to get in touch with Anson Wong's wife. Unless of course I had "friends" like Miller.

Miller was indicted by the United States Court for the Northern District of California in January of 2000 on charges of smuggling wildlife and conspiracy.

I wonder who the WE and US is that she talks about in her website.

Charged with Wong in the San Francisco case are James Michael Burroughs, of San Francisco, Calif.; Beau Lee Lewis, of Buckeye, Ariz.; Jeffery Charles Miller, of Mesa, Ariz.; Robert G. Paluch, of Mesa, Ariz., and Yuk Wah "Oscar" Shiu, of Hong Kong, China. Burroughs has pleaded guilty to several charges and awaits sentencing; Wong's other co-defendants currently await trial. I also wonder how many of these other names will surface.

I also wonder why the name of the person who shows up on that address is different from any other names.

Anyway this case is getting interesting to me.
And the players's list seems to be.....well.........I don't know

In addition to Wong, seven other defendants have been convicted or pleaded guilty to federal crimes associated with the smuggling ring. James Michael Burroughs, of San Francisco, pleaded guilty in 1999 to conspiracy and two felony smuggling charges in connection with his role as a human courier of smuggled animals in airline baggage. He awaits sentencing. Arizona reptile dealer Jeffery Charles Miller pleaded guilty in February 2001 to conspiracy and four smuggling violations in connection with his role in receiving FedEx shipments of animals from Wong and selling them to buyers in the United States. Miller will be sentenced later this summer. Arizona reptile dealer Beau Lee Lewis was convicted by a federal jury in March 2001 of 16 federal felonies, including conspiracy, money laundering, smuggling and wildlife offenses, in connection with his receipt of six smuggled FedEx shipments of animals from Wong in 1997 and 1998. Former FedEx employee Robert Paluch., tried along with Lewis, was convicted of four federal felonies, including conspiracy, smuggling and wildlife crimes, for his role in facilitating, with Lewis, the importation of FedEx shipments from Wong which contained smuggled animals. Lewis and Paluch will be sentenced on August 2. Arizona residents Brian Luebking and Nancy Mott also pleaded guilty to misdemeanor federal crimes in connection with their facilitation of the scheme and have been sentenced in the District of Arizona: both received fines and probation.. California reptile fancier Mark Biancaniello pleaded guilty to a federal felony wildlife offense for receiving smuggled animals from Wong. Biancaniello will be sentenced in San Francisco later this summer. A ninth individual, indicted with Wong and his U.S. associates, Yuk Wah "Oscar" Shiu, a Hong Kong resident who runs a wildlife import/export business in that city, is a fugitive.

I see that Savannah has been on line through this discussion the last few days but she hasn't responded.
Yes I know. The the page she had specially for you has disappeared. Maybe it is temporary maybe it is permanent. Maybe my comments of who is really harrassing who made her think. Maybe Jeff told her to leave you alone so he does not involve you any further. Maybe maybe maybe. We will never know.

Perhaps Savannah would like to clear up some of the questions raised.

Someone here says I should ask you some questions. Don't know what to ask really. Your stories seem pretty straight forward. And the questions I had if any seems to have already been answered.

Suncoast Herpetological

11-11-2003, 12:19 PM

Posted by Wendy

"Legally, once she stated that she did not want you contacting her again, the minute you hit send, it was harrassment."

Not always Wendy. There are several exceptions to that rule such as debt collection.

W.Wedeking

11-11-2003, 01:49 PM

That only applies if it is the person who owes the debt. She does not, and apparently a Judge agrees with that because she has a restraining order. Even with collections there are legal parameters within which you have to work and going outside of those parameters puts you at risk of losing what is owed.

I gather from the very specific wording that Savannah has in her emails to Bob, that she has sought legal council.

For $2 million I would think it would be in Bob's best interest to hire a collection agency and let them handle it. If I am not mistaken, they work on a commission basis/percentage of what they collect.

reticpaul73

11-11-2003, 01:56 PM

A restraining order has nothing to do with whether or not the judge agrees that she owes nothing. The restraining order is simply applied due to the aledged harrassment by an individual. Everything else is for another venue. I really wish this could've been handled better.

Paul Snyder

W.Wedeking

11-11-2003, 02:19 PM

It wouldn't be harrassement if he had "legitimate business" with her.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 04:27 PM

I gather from the very specific wording that Savannah has in her emails to Bob, that she has sought legal council. You noticed that too?
And I thought I was just seeing things.
It seems someone is in the background telling her what to do as well as what to say. This is truly getting very interesting.

I still think when she says we have been working for years to get the best connections.................my gut feeling is the we is not really Savannah. The we is someone else. The we is the person who told her to get a restraining order. The we is the person who told her to get in contact with Wong's wife. (Am I right Jeffrey CHarles Miller?.........yeah I am talking to you. ESP (gut) tells me you are reading this. Anyway see you when I get back home to Arizona)

Maybe I am just immature.
But at 18 I did not know how to start a business. Someone (maybe the we and the us) would have to be there to hold my hand. Someone would have to tell me what paperwork to file etc etc. Someone would have to hand me their little black book of connections.

I am also stuck.
Knowing one person can be okay.
Knowing two raises some eye brows.
Having connections to the same two who were both busted for smuggling....raises more eyebrows. But if they were in the same town could be okay. but these two are on opposite sides of the world. Coincidence?.........could be. But my gut......my BIG GUT tells me otherwise.

reticpaul73

11-11-2003, 05:50 PM

She is 18. According to her She (We/US) have been working to on getting the best connections for YEARS.

Savannah is obviously a prodigy when it comes to entrepreneurialship. Her website also indicates that she has followed the reptile market over the last decade. I wish I had her business-sense when I was 8 years old! But getting those great importing "contacts" right out of highschool that's the real trick!

Paul Snyder

Rob @ RK Reptiles

11-11-2003, 06:04 PM

As I have written in an earlier post Savannah wrote me and told me that they imported some of the first Chondros. Well this is really interesting as Chondros were imported into the US in the 70's first. So how was she able to import some of the first Chondros when she was not even alive is another question I am interested in the answer of. When I wrote her privately about it and asked her how long she has been importing she would not write me back. This entire situation seems "off" to me but then again it could be just me:laugh:

W.Wedeking

11-11-2003, 06:05 PM

I agree, some one is in the background telling her what to say.
I would think that if she wasn't who she said she was, she would not have been able to get a restraining order. This is a legal proceeding by which you must appear before a judge (I believe), so you do have to have legal ID.

On the one hand, she could be getting advice from very nurturing parents who could have also funded her business venture.

On another hand, she could also be getting advise from a close friend or aquaintence. :uhh:

Never the less, the wording was very specific in her emails and should have set off red flags immediately.

Adam Block

11-11-2003, 06:06 PM

The reason she picked Nevada is because to incorperate here is cheap, very cheap. It's also very easy, no background checks etc. And yes sir Mr. Block, it is to have papers served to sue in case something goes wrong. And yes sir, it is the resident agent that has his name on the law suit.

You say it as if you know why she incoporated there? Many other States are as cheap if not cheaper.

So you're telling me that a resident agent can lose money in a lawsuit against the corp? I've never heard of this, being named in the suit may me a legal issue but I never knew they could have a judgement against them.

Also, why does NV have the highest Corp. audit rate of any State? Cause people incorporate there to do no good!

As I said, I think a corp is a verp smart thing and I'm not saying anything negitive about owning one. I'm saying in this situation I think she was up to no good.

HerpVenue

11-11-2003, 09:58 PM

Nurturing parents who told her to give someone else's address.
Because there are other Sernas in Buckeye.
but none of them have the address she gave on that website.

I too noticed how she said the following the markets for decades thing.
At eight I was following girls. at 18 I was following girls.
At kindergarten i was following girls. I was in the market for girls.
I guess you can say I was following the market too.

If she really had nurturing parents. They would have told her to take her @$$ to college instead of starting a business with her boyfriend or whoever he really is to her.

(Note I did not say her boyfriend was you Jeffrey...................just to let you know....I too like em young......so comeon Jeffrey. Come out of the wood work. You do not have to be scared of Bob Clark. he is a pu$$y cat...a sweetheart........you have nothing to worry about with him...............come out and talk to me.........move her away from the keyboard and type to me............I don't bite)

DThomas

11-11-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by TheGhost
Also, the zip code given is not Buckeye (makes me think it's just the wrong address or something) and the arial photo of the house well, shows nothing. Not that I thought it would but I wanted to look.

The zip code is correct according to the deed of trust filed on 01/05/99 with the Maricop County Recorder's Office. The deed is in the name of Jamie and Brenda St Vincent, a husband and wife. They have records recorded back into the '80's so it would appear they are an older couple. Maybe grandparents?

Hues1

11-11-2003, 11:31 PM

Dont lie and get caught on the BOI. NOT GOOD !

brucestephenson

11-11-2003, 11:51 PM

Now we're getting arial photos of her house? Jesus!

Adam Block

11-12-2003, 12:02 AM

The zip code is correct according to the deed of trust filed on 01/05/99 with the Maricop County Recorder's Office. The deed is in the name of Jamie and Brenda St Vincent, a husband and wife. They have records recorded back into the '80's so it would appear they are an older couple. Maybe grandparents?

Come on this is a stretch! Maybe it's the wrong address? As for the areal photo, I just wanted to see where on a map the address was, the photo was just a click away.

brucestephenson

11-12-2003, 12:05 AM

Adam, you are going to make my head explode!

W.Wedeking

11-12-2003, 12:10 AM

Grandparents would make sense since AZ has a large retirement population.
Could also be mother remarried and Savannah wasn't adopted. There are many explainations.

Adam, I thought you were in time-out? :bluegrab:

Hues1

11-12-2003, 12:11 AM

Anybody wonder if maybe Jamie St. Vincent is tied into Jeff Miller and not Savannah ?

Or maybe Jeff Miller is more than Just an acquaintance of Savannah's...anybody seen this pic on Savannahs site.....

http://www.morphspecialties.com/images/yellowsav2.JPG

Notice the ring on the "finger"...maybe its Savannah herself...and maybe its not.

All just speculation.......

DThomas

11-12-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by TheGhost
Come on this is a stretch! Maybe it's the wrong address? As for the areal photo, I just wanted to see where on a map the address was, the photo was just a click away.

Thats why I said maybe. And of course it can be a wrong address. But of course, you are just making assumptions also. That is all we can do without Savannah's input. All I did was provided a little more information for the address.

Hues1

11-12-2003, 12:13 AM

pic

Adam Block

11-12-2003, 12:15 AM

Grandparents would make sense since AZ has a large retirement population.

Maybe Savannahs grandmother shot JR in Dallas? I'm just saying it's insane to come to all these conclusions when she hasn't even done anything wrong! You guys already got a rope and you're looking for a tree but nobody cares to stay on topic?

Did Bob ask Jeff to delete her account? I think that's a bigger issue then the population of retired people in AZ and if she's using one of their addresses.

Bob isn't looking like an angel here folks.

Jules_

11-12-2003, 01:20 AM

I've been following this thread, and it goes everywhere. Really only a few of the same people keep posting tho. All assumptions, speculation, guess work. A bunch of detective work. I can throw my own speculations in. Maybe Savannah still lives at home, as she is 18. So maybe there wouldn't be much record of her, as she has no criminal record. Maybe Savannah hasn't ever done any great grievance to anyone. I haven't seen a single post about how she did anyone wrong on any deals. Bob himself said she wasn't a thief or a smuggler. If her only crime in this apparent jury trial in here is knowing Jeff Miller, that's not a gold star moment but I don't see how that's punishable by death. I don't see how knowing who he is would be reason for her account to be pulled by kingsnake, either. But what's really important to this original thread is, I really don't see how JeffB could learn that she knows Jeff Miller. Does he keep records of who people associate with? Or did he get a phone call from a suspicious person informing him? I have sat here, night after night, sitting on my hands, not saying a thing, but enough is enough. Bob, if you are so sure that those snakes are the work and business of Jeff Miller, someone you have said yourself you are certain has no money, then why haven't you seized them yet?
To those that have posted a single 18 year old girls home and cell phone number, personal address, and pictures of her house, shame on you.
To those that have assumed so much...
I have an S Corp. I am the sole invester, stock holder, CEO, PRES, VP and treasurer of my corp. I did this under the advice of my accountant and attorney. I knew I was getting into business and knew little else except to know that if I'm going to get into business, I'm going to need an accountant and an attorney. So I hired them. They got me the paperwork I needed and helped me fill them out and showed me where to mail them. When ever something major happens in my corp, I call them for advice. I don't find this unusual.
Personally, I believe that if someone like Bob Clark called and threatened me with the serious allegations that he was making, then I would call my attorney, whether those allegations were true or not. Before I would do much else.
Savannah did not call her attorney first, she did not call Jeff Miller first. I know this because she called me first.
I was not listening in on the phone call between Bob Clark and Savannah, I can not guess what was said. But I have a pretty good idea.
I know this because Bob Clark called me first.
Anything beyond this, I'm really not sure is anyone's business, nor is it of any importance to the real issue of this thread.
I am the Julie that showed Bob the dwarf burm at the KC show.
I am the Julie that has been friends with JeffB for years (though I haven't talked with him in about 2 years now, nothing personal against him or me, just life getting in the way).
I have had a very good business relationship with Bob Clark for years. And I hope to continue that relationship.
I also happen to know Savannah personally.
This has put me in a very awkward position. I've never visited Savannah at her home. I can't pretend to know everyone she knows. I find this hard to watch while you guys burn her at the stake like some witch trial.
Now you'll pick and pry every word I have said apart and no doubt will discover that I'm related to Tom Crutchfield or the Pope or both. Dunno.
Bob, I really am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here. But why is it okay for you to know Anson Wong for 20 years, and for you to admit you still do business with his wife, but Savannah can't even admit to knowing who Jeff Miller is without you making such a huge deal of it? I am missing something, I admit, and am willing to be corrected. I honestly didn't know she knew Jeff Miller, I don't guess that is the kind of information you go around telling everyone. But every time I think of the situation (she was honestly trying to do business with you, sell you animals) I can't see how her admitting to you that she knew who he was would help her close a deal with you. It's obvious (and for very very good reason, mind you) that he is a thorn in your side, and a sensitive subject for you. I do believe you are entitled to the money that Jeff owes you. I do believe that if Savannah is a front, then you should get the snakes. But I also believe that if she is NOT a front (and I truely do believe that she is not) then you owe her a very big apology for attempting to ruin her business on false grounds all because she knows someone you don't like and was hesitant to admit it to you on your first phone conversation.
Because I know everyone involved personally, I have tried to be objective and fair in this. Hear both sides, keep my personal opinions out of this. Something isn't feeling right, and I haven't picked out exactly what it is. How did Bob come to know that Savannah knows Miller? If she didn't tell him, who did? It's late. just thoughts. I'm tired and I've probably said too much.