Dave Lawson & Neil Gubitz

[JungleHabitats]

Who is guilty of the tampa area breakins....

Hopefully you two can shed a bright light on what really happened
theres alreadly enough info on what happened in the past.So lets try to put what the outcome was in the court case here .and have information that can be VERIFIED posted not the old he said she said .Just verifiable facts please .Lets also try to not get into Name calling or who did what to who in the past unless its got something to do with the meat of the subject.

lets start by seeing who can provide ph#'s to the parties that can back up your claim that Dave admitted doing the break-ins in the Tampa Area.

The Neil Dave said you both got a settlement and the court case was a "Wash" so if either of you can provide truth to that effect please do so and if it was there should be a document of the effect that could be easily posted to state what you claim .

If all that was stated by both of you is true then somebody should ba able to show it , i think the speculation of the guilt or non guilt of both of you has gone long enough and id say one of you deserve to be proven right ? wouldnt you agree ... ?

[Wilomn]

These guys are both professional liars. Proof or not of anything one did to the other will not change this simple and WELL KNOWN fact.

I don't think it matters in the long run. They are both people I would avoid for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with the breakins.

While I must admit to a mild curiosity about the breakins I really just don't care.

Wes Pollock

[Neil Gubitz]

Hopefully you can all read this.... The first picture is the full page of my judgement, the second photo is the top of the page of my judgement, and the last photo is the bottom of the page of my judgement....

<img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=6269994">

<img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=6269995">

<img src="http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=6269993">

[JungleHabitats]

Ok from what i can tell of the court papers it doesnt say what the judgment is for or about ?Does it say anywhere with in the structure of "why the judgement or what it pertains to " IE admitting guilt or guilt was proving ?I take it from the paper work presented this was a "civil matter and not criminal?Also i could make out neither of you had attorneys?

Is there anything anywhere , that in writing IE: court papers that state why the judgement was levied?(sp) (like what brought this to become a lawsuit)

Dave you mentioned a "appeal" the court stamp is July 1 2003 did you secure council to do this ? as i know in NC as stated by neil an appeal is "usally required to be filed with in 30 days from ajudgement and could be held open with retaining a lawyer.

Neil Or Dave can either of you post contact info for people that you claim to have knowledge of the others guilt ? and with this i mean not someone you told the other did it i mean someone that was the victom of the breakins.( owners of shops) or if you could post what shops the other allegedly broke into i will do the foot work to contact them to get these answers .

Dave do you have anything that shows neil was ordered to pay you on a judgment ?

thanks

[Neil Gubitz]

Alan.... the above paperwork is from my judgement in Small Claims Court that I sued Lawson for not paying me for the store location I sold him.... No lawyers were involved.... There were NO appeals and I don't owe Lawson a DIME.... HE OWES ME!.... My lawyer IS in the process of securing payment, though.... it might take a while, but I just put it down as a forced savings account because there is a 6% interest rate attached for as long as it takes for him to pay me (which he has told me to my face that he never will).... we'll see.... as far as ME having verifiable PROOF of any burglaries.... I don't, that's why I can't post any of it.... but.....

As far as VERIFIABLE PROOF of breakins and burglaries??.... In about an hour or so, SUSIN TIPPI will be posting the PROOF she got back from the State's Attorney's Office today (she also sent a fax of it to some of the well-liked people on the BOI that she knows).... that's all I'll say for now until AFTER Susin posts.... if one of the people that she sent this material to, want to post a forward, go right ahead (you know who you are).... we'll SEE who's been lieing around here....

till later

[Dave Lawson]

The reason Gubitz and I went to court had nothing to do with the break-ins, It was a civil suit for the shop I got from him. Yes he won that case, yes I do have council now and yes there A NOTICE OF APPEAL WAS FILED, That is all I am going to say about that.

Now as far as the Break-ins at Gubitz's store I will ask someone to paste a link to the P.I. 'S report where he The P.I. states that Gubitz stage the break-ins.

As far as the contact info, Gubitz has all of that and let him post it since they are going to speak in his behalf or so he says.

[HerpVenue]

Now as far as the Break-ins at Gubitz's store I will ask someone to paste a link to the P.I. 'S report where he The P.I. states that Gubitz stage the break-ins.
Okay the PI's report did insinuate that Neil Staged his break in...at least in my opinion.

But if there is a police report somewhere that says you admitted to the burglaries.................Then F@(k the PI report. A Police report is one step above that in my opinion.

So can someone post the police report?

[Neil Gubitz]

Well.... considering that YOU and ANGELA were the MAIN WITNESSES for that report.... it's no wonder why he thinks I did it??.... pretty ironic, I would say....

So where is this lawyer you're talking about??.... Where are the police?.... You said you were going to have me arrested??.... Where is the paperwork for your appeal??.... It must have gotten lost in the mail, huh??

From here on out, I'm going to bide my time for awhile until someone else posts.... rant away to your heart's content.... for now....

[JungleHabitats]

while the PI report from what i sparsely recall it didnt say the Neil was "The One" and i somehow tend to think if it did Neil would have suffered the repercussions of that report.I did a search for it but i decided that part since there was never a court case / conviction wasnt really a issue here . Now if you have proof as ritchie stated of a Police report or can have someone that can post proof that he did it then its all just heresay Dave .As informed by Neil Susan Tippi is sending out and going to post something that may become a very good read.... hmmm i cant WAIT to see what she has there . so for now ill await someone with some knowledge more then me and the rest here have to add to this .. .result results and facts are what we need here other then that this would turn into a 500 page thread like the rest

[HerpVenue]

Someone posted and said that Dave admited to the burglaries.
I would love to see it.
It would mean I was wrong......does that make number four(4)?..... But it is one of those times I am GLAD to be wrong.
Yes believe it or not I do miss Neil. We have a love hate relationship.

[Dave Lawson]

I to can't wait to see what Susin Tippie has to say. It seems that if the state Attorney has some proof that I broke the law then wouldn't I be in jail? I have no idea what is going to be posted but rest assured if it is anything like Gubitz is saying someone will be getting a call from my attorney.

[karl ramsdell]

welcome back Neil! its good to see you back on here. im sure that there are lots of others that missed you as well!

karl ramsdell

[Stardust]

I, too, hope Susin Tippi posts on here, it may answer a lot of questions. And yes in the PI report it does not say Neil is the one. And it was Dave and his girlfriend that were talking the most. And with Neil stating he had no insurance??? then I am not sure what he would have to gain by staging a robbery???
I am getting the impression that something is definitely not right here with you Dave. You stated it was a wash, when in fact it was not, please post your appeal request as that would not hurt your case at all, and even if you did file an appeal it still does not mean it is a wash, for one, the court may not accept an appeal and the other you may lose there as well. Fact remains you did lie about that, beginning to seem like you will lie until the end, that you will not come forward until absolutely proven. Now that the papers are on here you finally say that he won.
You said I was beating around the bush, looks to me like you are.

Neil, good to see you can post for yourself again now, as I dont have to ;) or am not asked to. Please do not use the PM or fauna email button AT ALL LOL

[Neil Gubitz]

OMG.... Where are my Depends??.... I'm just shaking in my boots??.... remember the saying.... "THE TRUTH WILL OUT"???.... It shouldn't be too much longer.... tell your "attorney" she can reach me at 813-908-1869.... LOL

[John Apple]

Originally posted by wilomn
These guys are both professional liars. Proof or not of anything one did to the other will not change this simple and WELL KNOWN fact.

I don't think it matters in the long run. They are both people I would avoid for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with the breakins

Wes Pollock
Who cares ?? Wes put it the best way I saw so far, both of these guys tell so many lies they are starting to sound like the same person with two split personalities, Neil did this ...Dave lied here...Neil lied there...Dave did this...OHH but wait ask my person ...no ask my person......are more people here starting to see the pattern...but wait, I am sure as are you all ....MORE TO COME
The ONLY reason I can see the webslave allowing this thread is so all the new members can see what a class act these two are.
enough rope
enough rope
enough rope

no not yet

[Dave Lawson]

Rozanne, No disrespect to you but do you read these post? you do understand english, right? Cause I have said from the beginning that Neil got a judgement I also corrected my terminology, twice. what part of that do you not understand?

I can not find the P.I. report can someone please paste a link? I want to see where it says that I gave all this info to the investigator and if I remember right it says that Gubitz lied about not having insurance.

Oh, and Gubitz I am sure that she will be wanting to talk to you.

A request to the webslave, can you please lock in everyones I.P. addresses so that if there is a lawsuit I can prove that the post can from thier comp.

Post away Susin.

[Stardust]

http://65.54.170.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=420c3264fb5d53e03f75cdfb8aad9001&lat=1068770858&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2efaunaclassifieds%2e com%2fforums%2fshowthread%2ephp%3fthreadid%3d28976 %26goto%3dnewpost


I am not sure if the report is in here, I think it is, if not type in Neil Gubitz in the search.
I am wanting to find out the truth about everything Dave, including on who lied and if there was insurance or not.
Yes, I can read, that is why I know what you post at the beginning vs. in the end.
I disagree with Wes and John. This has been going on for so long it is hard to keep track, but since it is an ongoing thing I really would like there to be a final conclusion.
Some people do get curious and I for one am one of those people:)

[Stardust]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21167&highlight=Neil+gubitz


My mistake, that first one was talk on the report, this IS the report.

[John Apple]

Rozann
How can you even see a conclusion to this mess, when one comes around both parties involved are gonna lie..lie..lie.
Even if the end is in sight who are we to believe, hell I sent a 100 bones to Neil's cause when the store was broken into. Ya know trying to help a fellow herper as many other did...Now Rozann ...what did we all get in return, well I'll tell ya it wasn't the truth. Enough is enough.
Rozann if I seemed a bit short with you ..,my apologies

At this point it's kind of like the Freddie and Jason movies...will these two ever die out

[Stardust]

Well if you helped out in the Neil thing I can understand how you can be short and upset, fully understandable.
I would still like to see some truth come out of this and parties that may have some more proof to be able to come on here and post it.

[KNOBTAIL]

we had this same toe tapping dance about you skirting questions on other threads that rely on a simple yes or no. I am glad you finally admitted that a judgement was issued against you, and I am sure that the check you gave Tony Cueto was NFS instead of the dance rehersal you seem to have placed in your threads. I think as others begin to read your posts, it becomes very clear that the questions should be simple ones, which will not allow you to sidestep the answer. I dont understand, why you are even in the Herp business. JERRY TRESSER

[Dave Lawson]

It has been nearly 2 hours, I even called and left a message for Susin to hurry up and post this earth shaking news. Maybe all this was just another ***mis-understanding*** of Gubitz.

Jerry, to answer your question. I have been in the Herp trade for over 25 years and I make a damn good living at it. I sell great animals and good prices, I do not have to stoop to misrepresentation. Has anyone ever posted that I sold them a bad snake or lied to them to get a sale?

[Stardust]

Whew, I just re read the report and memory did serve me correctly, it did say the investigator talked with you, Dave and much to Angie Coker, and you both did in fact indicate to him that you both thought it was Neil.
Now given what you said about the Gubitz vs. Lawson case, and what may or may not come out later, I would wonder too if perhaps the P.I. was relying too heavily on what you and Angie had said.
The most damaging that I can find in that report about Neil is the letter to RichZ. I can not presume to know why it was written and can't go into Neils mind but that was definitely wrong.
About the break in being staged by Neil, well, I wondered then, and now I wonder more. Just doesn't seem likely.
Course Dave, you can prove Neil wrong, you could put up the appeal paperwork that you have???? Something, anything.

[Wilomn]

Ray, how many scarlet kings did you sell to neil last year? In fact how many have you sold him in the last four years, since that seems to be the time frame we're working with here.

thanks,
Wes

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Wow, I am constantly amazed every time this subject, or very similiar ones come up. It's like watching the Soap Opera's, or a car accident, actually some of both. I don't want to get hooked, but it's like I just can't look away. Who is screwing who? Who stole what? Was it proven? and just exactly who shot JR? (Oh, sorry, wrong Soap)

So~ Seriously, my question (question'S ?)is to everyone reading this thread.

Is this for real? Does this stuff really happen in the "Real world" or just in Tampa? Is it all that common as it appears in these threads? Are we all really a bunch of blood thirsty back stabbers waiting for the opurtunity to get a hold of our next victim?

WHAT is going on? Is this being filmed (Y'all see that Joe Schmoe show?) Or is this a test subject for a new Soap Opera? (All the Snakes in my life ????)

[Dave Lawson]

Roxanne, what does a appeal on a civil case have to do with Gubitz staging his break-ins?

[Stardust]

Please learn to read yourself and get the spelling of my name right.

You are saying things and not coming up with anything conclusive. You said the civil case was a wash when in fact Neil did win it. You spoke to the PI and implicated Neil.
It is not about the break ins connecting with the civil case, Dave.
It is about what you say and whether you can be believed or not.
Get it???

[Neil Gubitz]

Wes.... to answer your question.... Checking MY files.... I've only bought Scarletts from TWO people in the last four years.... THREE from Ray and this last one from Andy Barr....
And I'm sure that if Ray checks his files, he'll tell you the same thing.... and none before February of this year!.... I did have two that were GIVEN to me when I owned the store by people that found them in their yard or pool about 3-4 years ago.... but, I DIDN'T buy them and they sold IN the store to walk-in customers.... does that answer your question??
So, thinking about it, I guess I was wrong when I said I only SOLD 4 of them in the last 4 years.... I only BOUGHT 4 of them, but sold SIX of them.... Darn.... there I go lieing again.... lol

[Dave Lawson]

I am sorry about the name thing.

I still can't get the report to come up. it loads adobe and nothing.

and it has been proven time and time again that Gubitz is a liar. I do not care if people believe me or not. It would seem that the only proof of me lying has come from Gubitz. Yet not one of his witnesses have stepped forward as promised....kind of make you wonder if maybe that was a lie to!!!!!!!!!

[JungleHabitats]

But to refresh your memory a little lets back up a few threads in another thread ok ....
As far as our court case went well Neil got a judgement and so did I ....It was a wash Lie or just slipped your mind ?

quote:As far as our court case went well Neil got a judgement and so did I ....It was a wash you said had stated this twice at this point

quote:As far as our court case went well Neil got a judgement and so did I ....It was a wash wow third time .. we call this a charm

In all fairness to me, Have you called Josie Arnold and ask her about the animals Gubitz stole from my store and tried to have her sell. She knew what Gubitz was up to and returned them to me. I stepped to Him with this and we called it a wash. alot of washing going on here

I call it a wash simply due to the fact that Gubitz did not want to go back to prison for stealing animals from my store. So we made a arrangement sort of speak. I do not exspect Gubitz to admit this but believe it or not
is this the wash you are referring to ??if so i call that stupidity if someone steals something from me plain and simple im not going to "look over it " and again if you take the good word of someone you your self call a lair & cheat then you deserve what ever becomes of there word be it good or bad .

Dave a DA usally doesnt file charges until they have PROOF of a crime IE: if Susan Tippi does have proof and did goto the DA's office i would think that you would be getting some sort of legal visit in the near future.
now for my IP address :24.158.56.43

and im wanting to know some truth cause i to donated to the snake pit job $50 and i was a newbie here at the time and didnt no neil from adam andthe person that had the $ well pretty much vanished from the face of the earth last i heard ? hope he had a good vaction with our $$

[KNOBTAIL]

a great reality tv series. The Dave & Neil show. Each week they would be given different weapons starting from the Ming dynasty on up. They would kill each other each week. I am sure we could get donations and it probably would sell. But in all seriousness, Tampa has different weather conditions than we have here in So. Fla. and it seems to affect the Herp people who become vulnerable to what I call " the forgetfulness syndrome" . I really have no quams with Dave or Neil , but I do have a problem with some of Daves "around the corner answers" . Until you persue it, the truth finally comes out. JERRY TRESSER

[Wilomn]

And that right there is a PERFECT example of why you should not be allowed back here. Your story changes constantly. That's what, the third time it's changed in LESS than 24 hours.

Now so far as I know Ray is a stand up guy and even if you have talked to him before he posts how many he thinks several are, as he did say he sold you several, which to most means 3 or more, I can't help but wonder just how much trust to put in a guy that shares a table with the likes of you.

Ray, I'm not saying I don't trust you, as I have no reason not to, but just knowing you are closely enough associated with neil to share a table with him makes me wonder if I really can trust you. See the dilemma just associating with him can cause?

Now if someone else comes on and says they sold or bought or gave you more scarlets are you going to change your story yet again neil? Do the lies ever stop?

Wes Pollock

[herpetological]

I like the Freddy/Jason analogy! LOL! Wes... it appears that I have sold him three adult established SK's. It might be a matter of Neil renewing his adds often or sitting on stuff for a few months? I don't keep track of his adds? If there were others, they were not from me and not recently. I agree they are not a beginer's snake and most people will have trouble with W.C.'s. I don't sell them unless they are feeders and clean. Anyway, enough of that. How about everybody stops posting until they have something to back up the facts or Susin's report comes up. We really don't need another looonnnggg thread do we. Same thing again. Lets limit it to facts and no more name calling/he said she said! Quite the soap opera. Thanks Ray G HBR.

[Stardust]

So let me get this straight. You now call it a wash because Neil did not want to go to jail for stealing your animals? So he made a deal with you that you would not turn him and in return you did not have to pay him? Is that the wash?
$5149.00 in exchange for prison time for stealing spiders?
Please clarify????

[Dave Lawson]

With all due respect, This thread is quickly turning into a joke. Instead of simply glancing at a post some of you need to READ IT I can give the same exact answer to the same question and some brain trust will ask it again. I do however agree with Ray in the fact that we should wait until someone has something to post. Gubitz, how long is a hour in your world? Its been 3 here in the real one.

[Wilomn]

OK Ray, there's your 3, the 2 neil was given and the other 2 he sold. Isn't that 7.

neil, back to you.

You do know what the truth is, don't you? Because if you don't it's the exact opposite of what you keep posting here. Let's try that for once and see how it feels.

Wes Pollock

[Neil Gubitz]

Wes.... let's try the simple math again, shall we??
I bought THREE from Ray.... ONE from Andy Barr.... and TWO were given to me.... let's review....

3 + 1 + 2 = ????? you're right.... 7

[herpetological]

Please DO NOT insinuate that I have or ever will lie or for lack of better terms stretch the truth. Nor should it be insinuated that I in any way shape or form am a questionable person just because I have done business with Neil or shared a table at show with him. I have been in business for over 25 years and have built it on honesty, integrity and being a stand up person irregardless of wether I was friends of a person or an enemy. I have come on here and told Neil he was wrong in certain circumstances. I have come on here and said I do not agree with some of Neil's outlooks! I've come on here and defended him as well when I thought he was right. I've done the same to other people as well. You'll see threads where I have told other friends like Ray H. when he made a shipping mistake that he was wrong. I again defended him recently in another thread when he was right! Would you rather have someone who shakes your hand then walks away talking about your an Axx behind your back. You'll find I stand firmly on what I think is right! I shared those tables at Orlando with Neil because he called and said that he had 3 tables and could only fill one. We kept our animals to our two tables and sold them VERY CLEARLY AS OUR STOCK. With our invoices. Neil was paid for his two tables and a percentage. I usually do not do many shows due to the fact it's a conflict of interest since we supply many of the Vendors. Now if you see that as a tie in to us being shady, or questionable you are quite mistaken. I know you do not like Neil and that is not a problem with me. I have very few people that I dislike or have a problem with. I simply deal with it and get on with life. In the meantime I simply say "Hi" to them and go about my business. Life's too short! I have a file cabinet full of invoices. I usually do not have any idea how much of any one species I sell any one person. It's usually not worth my time. I have way too many animals to care for and not enough hours in the day. I checked on this specifically just in case this were to turn into another case of "words under the magnifying glass". If you have an axe to grind with Neil please kindly do so WITH HIM. It is a mistake to make attacks on me. I have nothing against you and as far as I am aware you have nothing against me. At least you know I will tell you the same thing to your face as I will behind your back. I have nothing to loose or gain in this therefore, please refrain from any comments in that direction. Thanks Ray G. HBR

[Stardust]

Ray, lmao, do not feel bad. I too have done business with Neil. I have not had all deal gone smoothly but all were rectified and I as well as my daughter are satisfied with the outcome.
So yes, I am bad by association. And I have NEVER sold a single reptile in my life.
Should we make a club?

[herpetological]

I'm proud of you.. you quoted me and made very non-confrontational/rational statement. Not downing you don't take me that way please. I just agree that it should wait for the facts to all come up. Maybe then it can be settled in less than 50 threads!! Thanks Ray G. HBR * Now if only everyone else can show restraint. Eeeaaasssyyyy!

[Wilomn]

Ray, don't be so touchy. I'm pretty sure I said that you were ok. I was merely expressing my thoughts here. Like you I won't say one thing to you and another behind you.

You did say you shared a table with neil. That lends credence to the thought that there was one table that the two of you each had animals on, not that there were three on which you had your animals on two.

I am sure you are telling the truth, but the moments hesitation was there, just being honest.

neil, I'm done with the scarlet thing, you've told three lies about it in less than 24 hours. I think my point about your lack of ability to tell the truth has, once again, been well proven.

Ray, I hope we're cool as I have nothing against you, never have and I truly hope I never will and that you never will with me.

neil, same old same old.

Wes Pollock

[HerpVenue]

I sell great animals and good prices, I do not have to stoop to misrepresentation. No stooping to misrepresentation from Dave.


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Exhibitors banned from the show

Dave Lawson, Lawson Reptiles (Florida) suspected of animal theft at show. Writing numerous bad checks to other vendors at the show last March.

[herpetological]

If I was guilty by association I would be in real trouble...All the busts over the years and gee I knew some of those people.(Several times!) and did business with them.!!! Guess what, yeah they screwed up, yeah theydid pay for it.(Literally or by doing time!) But, guess what...?? They are some of the major dealers still in business and wouldn't for a moment contemplate doing anything unethical or illegal again. Sometimes people get greedy. When this happens they loose sight of what they should do. Hopefully, they learn and become better people. The only problem I had was that every time it happened law enforcement wanted another tour!LOL! THEY GET THAT EVEN WHEN YOU MAY BE ASSOCIATED WITH A PERSON IN QUESTION...IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION! Me NO PROBLEMS!! Thanks, Ray G. HBR

[herpetological]

Sorry if I was a little touchy also. I had the same problem with being associated with Upstate when they did our website in lieu of some money owed. I guess I just do not usually put myself in a position to get burned..therefore, no problems. Thanks Ray G. HBR

[KNOBTAIL]

immunity from the DAs office. A kind yes or no will suffice. JERRY

[fancypet]

Okay, Here it is. Dave after the threats that you made to me today I thought that I would let people know what you think will hurt me.
I was a vender at a West Palm Beach show, since WPB is 3hrs away I got a hotel room. Dave being the cheap guy he is, of course, talked me into letting him shar our room. Our room, I had my twin 16yr old sons and one of their friends with me. Now Dave, as usual, was drunk. I didn't trust him enough to allow him to sleep with one of these 16 yr old boys, so, I slept in the same bed with him and the boys were in the other bed. Dave got touchy feely. Took me a while to make him stop. There was no SEX.
Dave thinks that he can threaten me with ruining my reputation with this little gossip. Gee Dave, I told my husband as soon as I got home and the boys were awake so when did this SEX happen. I guess you were dreaming about me while you were calling Nikki's name Begging her to DO YOU. As for your other threats to me and mine. Do you really think that I would give you a chance to hurt me anymore. You stole my sons college education and our retirement when you stole over $25,000.00 worth of snakes from my farm.
You will sue me and own my business. How? This is all public record.
I told you in the beginning of our business relationship. Don't mess with me. I don't play games.
Well everyone here is what you have been waiting for. Please pass it along.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/46687lawsonconfessb.jpg
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/46687lawsonconfess2c.jpg
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/46687lawsonconfess3b.jpg

If anyone has any info on snakes or tegus that Dave Lawson has sold, Please email me. I would like to find some of my snakes as they were part of a ten year breeding program.
Thanks, Susin April Tippie
Fancypet

[Dave Lawson]

No, I have not

[JungleHabitats]

well now is that or is that not true ?
see thats what a police report looks like ... uhm BUT you knew that huh ?

Back peddle but the ditch is right behind you pal .... shame dave shame ... oh you mentione about eating crow ? how do you like yours cooke ? rare ? cause this has got to really hurt huh

[JungleHabitats]

So let me guess uhm did they "frame you into this " why did you not tell anyone you were arrested ? you obvioulsy knew it ? or did it "slip your mind" i know id remeber being put in the old braclets with a key stuffed in a car and finger printed , picture taken with numbers ? so whens this goto court ?
is this why you have a lawyer ? geeeeeshus dave you have a lot of something to do now huh ?
now i saw at the bottom you were charged with " other crimes " care to explain them as well were they uhm the SNAKE PIT??

[KNOBTAIL]

uncertain about the laws in Fla. but this final link report , I think leaves no doubt about Daves extracurricular activities. I dont know , but would enjoy hearing from others on the following:
Was the theft considered a felony? as I have no indication of the money value. Since Dave is not in jail, I can assume that some kind of deal was made through the DAs office, which would lead me to believe that , others may have been implicated ?

If in fact, Dave admitted the burglary, where did the animals go?

Also, on final note, I am glad that Neil has been exhonerated to a great extent, and hopefully we can put a rest to this. JERRY

[Stardust]

First off Susin, I am so sorry for your loss, perhaps you could post the animals in question or if you have pictures of them you could post them as well. That may help people to ID your animals.


Now to Dave. Lies after lies after lies. You are a thief and a liar. Shame on you for doing this to someone.
This is what I meant about it being about you. NOTHING you can say now can be believed, even what you said to that PI!!!!!
Won't go to name calling though I can definitely think of some good ones. This is just disgusting.

[Stardust]

I would like to know the answers to that as well. Perhaps a plea bargain of some kind???

[KNOBTAIL]

the only plea bargain would be restitution and the mercy of the court. I took a second look at the affidavit, and it said Grand Theft, so I can assume it was a felony charge. Which would mean a grand jury , etc. But I am uncertain if the DAs can work something out in Fla. In either case, you can consider DAVE LAWSON a convicted felon. JERRY

[fancypet]

Jerry,
Yes a type of deal was made. He was arrested on another crime and was given the opportunity to clear up any other unsolved crimes. Because he confessed to mine and other reptile thefts in the area the Det. did not charge him because there was no other evidence just his confession. So I am out of over $25,000.00 worth of reptiles and all of the future sales of their offspring. That figured at low end, starting next season, to be about $30,000.00 a year.
Susin April Tippie

[Stardust]

Seems dave has been busy indeed.

[JungleHabitats]

i think you need to give an apology for the lies you have spewed out of that mouth of yours . Not that it will replace the thingsyou stole from people in your area ... but well it wouldnt mean much from a thief anyways ... man your lower then low man your just disgusting ... remeber i told you i wasnt taking sides until the truth came out .... well guess what Pal ... i think it would be wise for a KNOWN REPTILE THIEF to be banned from Fauna for good theres no need for the likesof your type among the rest of us ....

[fancypet]

It is now 11pm. Farm work comes very early. Any questions about this I will answer tomorrow. Yes I will again post the list of stolen animals along with some of their pics. Thank you all for your support.
Susin April Tippie

[KNOBTAIL]

and now this begins to make sense. I can assume since this is a recent crime, that DAVE, is out on bail until some kind of a hearing is adjudicated. At least you know. By the way did Dave receive immunity from the other burglaries because of lack of proof or to cut a deal. JERRY

[JungleHabitats]

The truth about Dave
Jerry,
Yes a type of deal was made. He was arrested on another crime and was given the opportunity to clear up any other unsolved crimes. Because he confessed to mine and other reptile thefts in the area the Det. did not charge him because there was no other evidence just his confession. So I am out of over $25,000.00 worth of reptiles and all of the future sales of their offspring. That figured at low end, starting next season, to be about $30,000.00 a year.
Susin April Tippie

[fancypet]

He can't be charged with the ones in my county. But the good news is that he also confessed to crimes in other counties. They did not make any deals. And now that he has threatened me and the cops have the report this also coincides with the stalking case he is accused of. That too is public record.
Susin April Tippie

[KNOBTAIL]

and that is about the PI report. I cannot trust anything that Dave may have incorporated as a "self serving" method for causing difficulties and casting a shadow on Neil. It was very convenient and easy for Dave to attempt to manipulate that kind of report. Shame on him. I wonder what the promoters think of him now. I would not want him next to my booth. JERRY

[JungleHabitats]

he wont be allowed on the property probably

[herpetological]

Surprise,surprise, surprise...NOT!

[HerpVenue]

He is innocent.

Just because he admited to the thefts to save his skin on a separate charge doe snot mean he is guilty.

Just because he was banned from a show for suspicions of animals thefts does not mean he is guilty.

Just because he was banned from that show for writing rubber checks does not mean he is guilty.

NOT !!!

Some comments Dave.

You were telling Susan to hurry and post.
But the fact of the matter is you already threatened her.....
so you THOUGHT she won't post.
Well surprise Dave. Surprise indeed.

Also.....what was that you were saying about the PI report?
Care to elaborate?
Care to elaborate on anything?

Looks Like I grilled the wrong person.
But I will apologize to him again.

Neil....I think I have said it before. And if I have not. I do apologize.

[WebSlave]

Please note my warning about posting EXTERNAL LINKS to evidence in the BOI. They are NOT permanent and quite likely are already gone. I will give someone a couple of hours (at most) to do screen shots of those pages or post the images directly here before I delete those links posted.

A year from now, someone reading this thread will most certainly not have those links available, so PLEASE, think ahead a little bit about what you are doing here.

[HerpVenue]

P.S.
Anything happens to Susan or to her store or to any of her children..... The cops as well as everyone know who to go to first.

So before you do it...(I know you are thinking it) Ask yourself. Is it worth it? You are already gonna go to jail. Do you really want to make your stay longer?

Hey send me your animals before you go to jail. I promise to hold the profits for you..................NOT

[HerpVenue]

page 1

[HerpVenue]

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[HerpVenue]

hope you all don't mind I resized and posted for her

[ms_terese]

Susin, my condolences. Some of my animals have been raised by me since hatchlings, and I've had them for years and years. It would kill me to not only lose the investment of time, money, and care, but not know where they ended up and how they were being cared for. Some people may not have considered that aspect of this situation, but when you said "breeding stock".....well, I know how much goes into that. I really am sorry for you.

I can't muster any shock over Dave. Really, is anyone truly surprised that Dave Lawson A) is a thief; and/or B) is a liar?

You've been in this business 25 years, Lawson? That disgusts me. It really does. People of your caliber are about as devastating to this hobby as an outbreak of IBD...

Go hide now, Lawson. That's your pattern. Show up, spew some accusations, then disappear when they're refuted.

[JungleHabitats]

also can you send me link for doing screen shots ? i need to have that handy for future things lol .
And yes Dave if i were you id stay away from Susan and anythingto do with her my friend.


To Neil ,
Thank you for sending me that email you did . I know you didnt expect it to be posted but at the time i felt it was the thing to do and ask Dave of his side of it .. i told you i would be fair in any future dealing with your name involved and now i feel pretty damned good in what i did . it allowed Dave to shove his foot upto his tonsils and then wallow in it after he tols so many lies about what he didnt do ....

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Just a quick statement. I have been doing business with Susan for the past 3 or 4 years and have found her to be an honest person and a straight up member of our community. She and i have discussed these issues before and I genuinely believe that the allegations she is stating here are the truth. dave's reputation, on the other hand, tends to speak for itself.

[DThomas]

They are not allegations anymore. The moment Dave confessed they became proven facts. He commited the burglary and stole those snakes, period.

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Agreed. I missed the portion of the report where the moron admitted to the theft.

[Adam Block]

also can you send me link for doing screen shots ? i need to have that handy for future things

Hit the "print screen" key, should be next to f12

You can also hit "cntrl print screen" depending if you want the screen shot as it sits or without the borders, mouse and so on.

Then then go into a program and paste the shot there.

Might be an easier way but I don't do it a lot so I don't know.

[Dave Lawson]

Webslave,

Please allow the links to remain on Susin's post at lease till tomarrow night. Detective Sgt. Clamon will be looking at them.

And if you all would match up case # you will see what is wrong with them to.

Have fun for now.

[JungleHabitats]

ok i looked at case #'s

ther as follows 03-061536.... on all three pages ?
And if you all would match up case # you will see what is wrong with them to.

now whats wrong with them ?
and in the part you were arrested in there are the case #'s of 03-080211 so what case is that Dave ?

and no matter WHAT dave you were arrested for admitting to the theft/breakins of BURGLARY OF A BUISNESS/GRAND THEFT

So are you saying this wasnot her place that you admitted to burglarize? if thats what your sayin then what did you break into Dave ??

[JungleHabitats]

you know the case and should pretty well you were locked up ? give him the case#'s he can see it at his desk or in a FILE CABINET

[JungleHabitats]

He can't be charged with the ones in my county. But the good news is that he also confessed to crimes in other counties. They did not make any deals. And now that he has threatened me and the cops have the report this also coincides with the stalking case he is accused of. That too is public record.

[Dave Lawson]

I was never arrested for any break-ins. The case # do not match up and I never admited to any break ins. You guys are smart enough so look up case # 03-080211 and you will see that it has nothing to do with any break-ins, or burglary or grand thieft. Matter of fact it was dismissed 2 hours after they cuft me. Does it make sense to you? Susin's case #03-061536 but they say that I admitted to case # 03-080211.

I do not care think what you want I will fix it tomarrow.

Oh Susin, I was all touchy feely right? Then whose head was in my lap? And by the way it was Orlando not WPB, IT WAS THE CFHS show. Remeber the camera.

P.S. yes I was Drunk, I had to be.

[Wilomn]

dave, no one likes your petty insinuations.

Wes Pollock

[John Apple]

Originally posted by Dave Lawson
I was never arrested for any break-ins. The case # do not match up and I never admited to any break ins. You guys are smart enough so look up case # 03-080211 and you will see that it has nothing to do with any break-ins, or burglary or grand thieft. Matter of fact it was dismissed 2 hours after they cuft me. Does it make sense to you? Susin's case #03-061536 but they say that I admitted to case # 03-080211.

I do not care think what you want I will fix it tomarrow.

Oh Susin, I was all touchy feely right? Then whose head was in my lap? And by the way it was Orlando not WPB, IT WAS THE CFHS show. Remeber the camera.

P.S. yes I was Drunk, I had to be.
Well Dave...In yours and other posts
your a lier
your a thief
possible sex offender
and a drunk
My question to you ....Got enough rope yet??
My advise to you .....SHUT UP
My advise to everyone else ...if you buy from Dave [foolish if you do] then you should post a pic of said animals to find the rightful owners

[KNOBTAIL]

this time Dave. I personally think the proper thing to do would be to notify all the promoters in Fla. let them know that Dave was not only arrested for Burglary, and possibly other crimes related to the theft, but specifically related to Reptiles. I would provide a copy of the arrest report with his admission. I would ban him from shows, and sites such as Fauna and Kingsnake . Furthermore, I dont think his problems are over yet. Aside from the judgement that Neil obtained, people who had their livestock stolen can also persue this loser with civil litigation as well.

Although these are minor remedies to an endemic problem with Dave, and although we may never find out how many other establishments Dave may have looted, its a beginning. Their is no room for this kind of intolorable behavior. People lost their livestock, their breeding population, and as in the case of Neil, was being mentally molested by this felon, who has relentlessly attempted to cause alot of pain and suffering to Neil.

Last evenings threads were coming in faster than I was able to read them, and I must admit, I was absolutely fascinated by what occurred and the information that was provided. Thank God for the BOI. You could not get this elsewhere. Dave will not walk away unscarred from this, and if nothing else by word of mouth, I think he is finished in the Herp business. But stranger things have happened, and we have strange bedfellows in this community. But for sure, Ill do my part in staying away from this pirriah. JERRY TRESSER

[herpetological]

You seem willing to come on here and make accusations or point fingers...Why not elaborate??? Why not explain????What did you get arrested for? Why were you released??? Seems pretty damning to me. I know I would be up explaining in detail everything...posting links, copies, ummmm.....explaining. All you seem to do is start to make a statement then fall short...Why Dave?? Were you released on O.R. or posted bond within two hours? If I were you I'd be falling all over myself to explain... Oh, yeah I'm not you.... It might help your case, MIGHT? Thanks Ray G. HBR *P.S. Don't run away on this we're still listening...

[herpetological]

I hope you plan on following this up Susin. I wouldn't let this go after that....From what I understand there is more.....

[JungleHabitats]

HSCO has the following information pertaining to the arrest of Lawson ,David Bryan

Name: LAWSON,DAVID BRYAN
DOB: 01/11/64
Booking #: 03047258
Arrest Date: 08/13/03
Race: W
Sex: M
Ethnicity: N


NAME BOOKING NO. PIN NUMBER
LAWSON,DAVID BRYAN 03047258
STATUS BOND CASH FINE PURGE
STATUS - *RELEASED* 8,000.00 .00 .00 .00
STREET ADDRESS CITY STATE ZIP
40116 MASON RD ZEPHYRHILLS FL 33540-
RACE SEX ETHN POB DOB ARREST AGE SSN
W M N KY 01/11/64 39
EYES HAIR BUILD CURRENT AGE HEIGHT WEIGHT SOID SOID NAME
HAZ BRO LAR 39 602 275 00231355 LAWSON,DAVID BRYAN
OBTS CAUTION IND CAUTION REMARKS
2901032871 NA NONE LISTED



SELF EMPLOYED REPTILES NA
ARREST AGNCY ARREST DATE ARREST TIME BOOK DATE BOOK TIME
HCSO 08/13/03 17:00 08/13/03 19:22
ARREST LOCATION JURISDICTION
1302 BUSCH BL W TA
CELL LOCATION
DOES NOT OCCUPY A CELL - RELEASED ON: 08/14/03 AT 11:39 - REL: SURETY BOND


NO. CHARGE DESCRIPTION CLASS COURT DISP BOND BP FINE CUSTODY DAYS CHARGE COUNT CHARGE TYPE
1 UTTERING A FORGED INSTRUMENT F3 31 2,000.00 B 1 1 PC
REPORT # CT-CASE # DATE AGENCY OBTS NUMBER CHARGE CODE CRA NUMBER
03080211 0313846 08/13/03 HCSO 2901032871 FORG2000 603709


NO. CHARGE DESCRIPTION CLASS COURT DISP BOND BP FINE CUSTODY DAYS CHARGE COUNT CHARGE TYPE
2 UTTERING A FORGED INSTRUMENT F3 31 2,000.00 B 1 1 PC
REPORT # CT-CASE # DATE AGENCY OBTS NUMBER CHARGE CODE CRA NUMBER
03080211 0313846 08/13/03 HCSO 2901032871 FORG2000 603709

3 FORGERY F3 31 2,000.00 B 1 3 PC
REPORT # CT-CASE # DATE AGENCY OBTS NUMBER CHARGE CODE CRA NUMBER
03080211 0313846 08/13/03 HCSO 2901032871 FORG1000 603709

4 FORGERY F3 31 2,000.00 B 1 4 PC
REPORT # CT-CASE # DATE AGENCY OBTS NUMBER CHARGE CODE CRA NUMBER
03080211 0313846 08/13/03 HCSO 2901032871 FORG1000 603709




What did you Forge Dave?

[KNOBTAIL]

someone, probably a family member posted bail for Dave. I am not to sure how this works in Fla. but these charges have a way of being upgraded depending on the persuit of the defendants, how much influence they can provide to the DA, etc. although I did not see burglary listed, their may have been, although I have no proof, some kind of a deal cut, or a limited immunity for admitting to an easier solving crime than burglary. Alot depends on " where are the reptiles that were stolen ". JERRY

[HerpVenue]

You guys are smart enough so look up case # 03-080211 and you will see that it has nothing to do with any break-ins, or burglary or grand thieft. It is not available on line.

1. Why don't you go ahead and tell us what the case is about.

2. why don't you also tell us why you were banned from a show.

3. And tell us if it is true that you wrote numerous bad checks to vendors at that show

[DThomas]

Seems Dave allegedly likes to pass checks belonging to others. Anyone in Hillsborough County that would like to run down to the Sheriff's Office and pick up a copy of the report and post it here? Police reports are public record and anyone can request one. Then we can see the facts of the other case.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Dave,

Ok the other case number 03-080211 is your case for uttering Forged instruments etc. That is fine. But in this case the SO states that you "ADMITTED" to this break-in.ON 8/13/03 THE SUSPECT WAS ARRESTED ON CHARGES RELATED TO HCSO CASE 03-080211 AND SIGNED A CASE CLEARING AGREEMENT WHICH HE ADMITTED TO COMMITTING THIS OFFENSE SEE CASE 03-080211 FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. This offense refers to the case that it is posted on the supplemental form. This was the Burglary of a Business/Grand Theft. This is Susin's business that you admitted to the break-in. In my eyes your done. No use in trying to lie and change the story, or pass the blame on someone else or make it look as if the paperwork from the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office. It is now a matter of public record with the Sherrif's department so no use in trying to hide the truth.

[KNOBTAIL]

correct, and if you see "case clearing agreement", he probably was willing to accept a deal of some sort, rather than having the DAs office persuing a more potentially serious offence.

Burglaries are very difficult to proove unless their caught red handed or the materials can be traced back to the seller, in this case Dave. That is why I asked about "where are the reptiles that were stolen"

Iam sure this is not over yet. But for Dave, I can easily understand why he is not responding to these threads. On advise from councel. JERRY

[JungleHabitats]

go here HCSO (http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/)

click on online inquiry
goto arrest date field
enter081303
hit"search "
scroll down to Lawsons name

it shoes all info wherein he claims case#'s are skewed & amiss.

wow did i really find something you didnt ? lol or did you not search ?

maybe i have some ferret blood ?lmao

either way Dave you admitted to a grandtheft & burglary of a buisness, and that wasnt good enough for you so you tried to back peddle by claiming her #'s were fishy .... so i took the bait you gave head to the pond and caught some fraud charges.. thanks
Alan

[Neil Gubitz]

I guess the saying.... "All good things come to those who wait", is perfect for me today.... I gotta tell you folks, last night was one of the best nights of my last three years!

He was arrested for stalking his ex-girlfriend and was bailed out by his mommy for $2000 (because nobody else would even think about doing it for him).... he is suspected of burglarizing.... The Snake Pit (three times), It's Alive (Brandon), Southeast Reptiles (Tampa), Firebombing Josie's Exotic Reptiles (Tampa), Susin's home, Peg's Pets, Herp Hobby Shop (Oldsmar), Scales (Brandon), Ray and Jenny Marteliz (Tampa), a bunch of vendors at various tradeshows, bouncing checks to Tony for his shows, leaving threatening messages on Susin's ANSWERING MACHINE and stalking his ex-girlfriend.... If I forgot any, just let me know....

Can you folks NOW see why I have been so bitter the last three years??.... Being accused of everything in the book by this PROVEN THIEF AND LIAR, when I KNEW I was innocent??.... And that PI Report??.... With Lawson and Angie being the main witnesses??.... how ironic is that??

I think if Alan had not posted that email I sent him, none of this would have come to fruition so fast (thanks, Alan, you did the Herp community a GREAT favor).... I also have to give GREAT thanks to Rich for un-banning me so I could help get to the bottom of this!

Wes, I know you're probably kicking yourself in the butt right now, but I STILL hold no bitterness towards you.... you just bet on the wrong horse!.... I DON'T lie and I have NEVER stolen anything from anyone!.... I did Rozann very wrong with the two animals I sent her, but they have been made up for to HER satisfaction.... and apologized for PROFUSELY!!

To everybody else that I have wronged with my WORDS.... I apologize to you folks, too.... now, I know some of that will fall on deaf ears, but, I'm apologizing anyway with the hopes you can understand my reasons in the light of what's just happened, and what I've had to put up with these last three years....

I am going to go to the HCSO today and get a copy of case #03-080211 and post it for everyone to see (I think that's the stalking charge, but I could be wrong)

I guess all I can say now is....

Bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do, watcha gonna do when they come for you, bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do when they COME FOR YOU!!

ROFLMAO!!

[fancypet]

Dave,
Such a short memory. Gee I guess I was Doing you while my husband was in bed with me. Oh that's right. You were drunk. I guess you don't remember that my husband ran the booth on Sat with you and I came up later in the day. My husband and I got a motel room and again(cheap as you are) you asked to share it with us. Don't you remember how you had to stay outside while my Husband and I were BUSY? You were complaining on how loud I was. And who was in the bathroom with me the next morning. NOT YOU. Not that anyone else wants to hear how pathetic you are that you have to think you are having sex through other peoples lives.
Now about the case #'s
Why is Nikki's case # on my break-in sheet. Because when you were arrested for forging her name on a change of address at the post office (that is part of the stalking case) you were asked if you had information on any other crimes. And since the Detective signed a case clearence paper with you(remember when you called me crying the day before the Daytona Expo) you could not be charged with the thefts in Hillsborough Co.
All this time I gave you a chance to get my snakes back, I even told you the day after the break-in that I would have given you the boas if you just brought my babies back. I told you again and again that I wouldn't do anything I just wanted my snakes back.
I told you that if someone put them in bags and left them in the yard or at a specified place or shipped them to me with no return address that I wouldn't do anything. You know how to wipe prints. You cleaned my snake house so well that not even my prints were in it.
Even now. DAVE. Even now I will still give you a chance to get my babies back. I asked you to help me get my snakes back, knowing that you knew where they went.

I am not going to rattle on.

If anyone wants the whole story on how my family helped Dave Lawson with money,Down payment on the Snake Pit, stock for the shop, rodents to sell, reptiles to sell, display cases. or how about how I paid for your tables at the march Tampa show so you wouldn't get kicked out. And I stood up for you to everyone when you were accused of taking that Tegu from Tom Morino.

I wish I had listened to everyone about you. But I always believe that there is good in everyone and if I can help them to straighten out there life I try. You wanted a chance to get a good reputation for yourself. You convinced us that you changed. We brought you into our family.

HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME>

Susin April Tippie

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Susin,

I am so sorry you and your family are having to go through and endure this kind of behavior. I wish you the best in recovering your animals and in your pursuit of restitution from All parties involved. Please be sure to keep us updated on everything you can and when you gain other information from the State Attorney.

[Neil Gubitz]

Susin.... It's because he's pathological!!.... He's got some kind of mental illness and a GREAT "gift of gab".... If I EVER see the $5000+ he owes me (which I WILL sooner or later.... BET ON IT!), you WILL get your $1000 back that YOU paid me for the down-payment on The Snake Pit's location....

I just called the HCSO and found out that the case #03-080211 was for "forging a $2000 document" (writing a bad check), it's in the public record.... if anyone wants to hear it, call 247-8210 and hit option #2....

I would also love to get my Adult Albino Boas back.... ya know Dave, the one that was GRAVID!!.... and my adult pair of Emerald Tree Monitors you STOLE, too.... You're a real piece of work.... What I would really like to know is WHY did you have to KILL a bunch of my animals and just leave them on the floor to rot??....

I, too, gave you every opportunity to get your life back together, but, obviously, I was played like a fiddle.... like you play everyone else!

Isn't this funny.... I just got a call from someone who is coming to my house tomorrow to purchase my 6 month old bearded dragon pair.... the caller ID says HCSO!!.... when I asked him where he works, he says HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE!!.... He's going to bring me the paperwork on both case numbers!!.... Talk about coincidence??.... He also knows YOU, Dave.... this should be a very interesting conversation....

I guess NOW I can officially say that you're a PROVEN WEASEL and a MAGGOT!.... You thrive off others' grief.... If I have ANYTHING to say about this, you are DONE, FINISHED and COMPLETELY OUT OF THE REPTILE BUSINESS!!.... Tony Cueto WILL hear about this from me, with the hopes that he will tell every other promoter about you.... not that you'd have the money to buy a table anyway....

Do us all a favor and crawl back under that rock you came out of and leave all of us ALONE!

Kismet is a wonderful thing!

[Neil Gubitz]

I just noticed that Julie Moore is on-line.... anything YOU want to add to this Julie??.... I KNOW you have some GREAT information to tell....

[Julie Moore]

Yes - I am here. I just learned of this thread last night so I've been reading through it and debating over posting what I feel like I should probably post. I must say though - it is nice to see things come full circle finally for such a deceitful creep.

[Neil Gubitz]

Julie.... believe me when I tell you that I feel sorry for you the most!.... I know EXACTLY what you've gone through.... I do hope all is well with you now, though....

[Dave Lawson]

It was a $2,000.00 bond Gubitz.......

I have a question that was ask of me by a Corp. at the HCSO Internal Affairs Div. Were does it say that I admitted to all these burgalies?

Where is that paperwork at? He said that they do not have it, and is wondering how Ms. Tippie or Gubitz has it. Then told me that Det. Masci is off today and that they would be getting in touch with him concerning this.

As I said before, I do not care if you believe me, but it is funny they have not shown anything that I said That I comitted any burgalies.

Didn't The Detective tell you that someone else comitted your break-in? Or are you going to omit that info as well?

Glad you all are having fun!!!!!!

[Darin Chappell]

Well, well, well! Dave, unless there has been a wonderful job of forgery accomplished here (in which case there are some people who would soon be nominated for the DUMBEST forgers in the world, for having actually posted their forgeries HERE!!!), you are a self-confessed liar and thief. Now, that doesn't surprise many of us old-timers very much, because you have long been regarded as a true slug in this business. I does my heart good to see that you are getting what you so richly deserve in all of this. Ideally, you should probably go to jail, but, if nothing else, I hope that you are hurt from a financial perspective by the fact that these items are out there for the viewing public.

Neil, if you are saying that you are not going to be the complete and total jerk that you have been in the past, that you are no longer going to be lying out your teeth about the most inconsequential stuff (thereby making it impossible to believe you on the BIG things, by the way!), and that you will realize that your persona is NOT greater than the whole of the herping community, I can accept your apology. Please don't say that you didn't lie about stuff regarding all of this, Neil. You and I both know for a fact that you did lie numerous times through all of this mess. I have no interest in dragging it all up. I never really thought you actually did burglarize your own place, but I can't stand it when anyone lies to me, and especially when the person doing it is someone who USED to be one of the biggest watchdogs on this BOI!

You and I will never be buddies, and I probably will not trust anything you say without some pretty hard evidence in support of your position, but I have no intention of following you around from thread to thread, telling everyone what a jerk you are. If you will truly stop the sleazeball actions and reactions, you have no problem with me. I hung up my spurs a while back, and I won't put them back on, unless you give me reason to do so.

Susin, you have my sincerest sympathies regarding your losses, AND your dealings with Dave on a personal nature. I have never met you, but I would be willing to help in any way that I can. So, if you will post pictures of the animals in question, I will certainly make the issue known to the local herp societies with which I have association. That way, if they ever come this far, we might find something for you. I have to say, that if I were your husband, the safest place for Dave WOULD BE jail right now. I'm really sorry you both have to deal with all of this on so many levels.

[Dave Lawson]

Hey Gubitz, What is the name of the Deputy/ county employee that is willing to lose thier job to give you paperwork and break the rules set forth by Sheriff Cal Henderson.

And again, where is this paperwork that said I amitted to all these break-ins?

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Dave,

Susin has shown something showing that you admitted to her burglary. If you look at page three of the documents that have been posted you will see where it clearly states on the supplemental report on Susin's Burglary of a business/Grand Theft that you "admitted to this offense." You can clearly see the report is from HCSO written by Det. Masci and the supervisor was Sgt Clamon. The link to the page where the images of the reports are posted is below in case you are having a hard time finding them to see.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28976&perpage=5&pagenumber=14

[Darin Chappell]

"Hey Gubitz, What is the name of the Deputy/ county employee that is willing to lose thier job to give you paperwork and break the rules set forth by Sheriff Cal Henderson."

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it is true that such a sheriff's department policy actually exists (and since Dave said it, it is almost assuredly does not!), how in the world would that help to prove that it was anything other than a truthful representation of your confession?!?!?!?

If you are complaining that a sheriff's department employee leaked a document dealing with you, then you are, by definition, agreeing to the authenticity of the document! A sheriff's department employee cannot leak a forgery done by Susin and Neil, Einstein!!!!

[Dennis Gulla]

How is it that Dave Lawson has such an active criminal life (past & present) yet he is not currently in jail? He was arrested again as recently as August "03".

I know he has a criminal record a mile long and has served time in the past. I would think that he would be on probation or something?

Rob (RK Reptiles) or DThomas, do you guys have any idea?

[Stardust]

dave, I do not think that anyone here is having fun with this. In fact it sounds to me as if the people who know you or have known of you for a long time, this comes as no surprise to them
I personally find it sad. The herp community has a hard enough time as it is, you are giving the community as a whole one more bad notch. What fun is that? What fun is it to know that people have been ripped off by you? What fun is it to know that the Tippi family put themselves out there for you and you stabbed them in the back?
I do not find any fun in this, I do not think anything that has transpired is fun or funny. Nothing.

[Neil Gubitz]

Dave, do you see the THIRD WORD of that paragraph???.... I chose my words very carefully.... I have NO SOILD PROOF (yet), but if you confessed to one, I'm sure the others aren't far behind.... The reason Susin wasn't able to get the rest of the paperwork is because the case is still open and pending and the State's Attorney HASN'T signed off on it, yet, so NO paperwork is available to the public.... YET!!

....he is ***suspected*** of burglarizing.... The Snake Pit (three times), It's Alive (Brandon), Southeast Reptiles (Tampa), Firebombing Josie's Exotic Reptiles (Tampa), Susin's home, Peg's Pets, Herp Hobby Shop (Oldsmar), Scales (Brandon), Ray and Jenny Marteliz (Tampa), a bunch of vendors at various tradeshows, bouncing checks to Tony for his shows, leaving threatening messages on Susin's ANSWERING MACHINE and stalking his ex-girlfriend.... If I forgot any, just let me know....

Darin.... I realize you don't like me.... I can live with that.... but, you're talking about things that happened THREE YEARS AGO.... In the midst of what I was being put through, and with my lousy memory, I might have MIS-SPOKE once or twice, but, as far as knowlingly telling an out and out lie???.... I HAD a police report done, but I had NO insurance for the animals that were stolen and killed.... what would be the point of me pursuing a report??.... In any case, if you think I lied, then I'm sorry.... I don't think I'm "holier than thou" in ANY stretch of the imagination.... I'm no better than anyone else here and (from now on) I will conduct myself in just that way.... even though I'm not a religeous person, I don't hold grudges against (almost) anybody.... life's too short.... if you still want to think of me with that much animosity, that's certainly your prerogative.... but, I won't give you any more reason to think that way in the future.... I would still wish you would accept my sincere apologies and let's just move on....

[ms_terese]

Let me see if I have this all correct....

We have Case #03-13846, which is based on 4 separate counts of Forgery, each considered a Class 3 Felony.

We have Case #03-061536, which is based on Grand Theft, and includes a confession for burglary related to yet *another* Case #03-080211 (Susin Tippi's case).

Each of the 4 counts of Forgery show a $2,000 bond, Dave.... that's why Neil calculated your bond at $8,000.

OK, Dave, I've compared all the case numbers that you asked us to compare. What was that supposed to prove, except that there is yet another case (#03-061536) that probably represents yet *another* crime that hasn't been brought up here yet.

You're worried about someone getting copies of reports? They're public record!!! Just because someone is willing to provide free delivery to Neil doesn't mean it's against the law for him to have them. I can order them online if I want to.

Now, I realize that these case numbers don't necessarily mean you were convicted of the forgeries. I'm not sure that your admission to Susin's burglary was part of a plea bargain on other charges, which may or may not include the forgeries. However, if they weren't........what other charges were you facing that caused you to confess in order to make a deal?

[Dave Lawson]

Oh no, that is not what I am saying in the least.

See, I know that I did not sign, say or write down anything saying that I did any break-ins, But for whatever reason Susin got some paper saying that I admitted doing her break-in.

Then comes Gubitz saying that I admitted to every reptile related break-in that took place in the last several years.

Then Susin wrote that I am stalking her (or something to that affect) and there is another case.

Now comes Gubitz saying that someone from HCSO is bring him paperwork on me.

Well I called the HCSO back and what they said was "if" a deputy is dumb enough to risk his job to do it they he/she needs to be fired because it is against they polocys.

They are interested in this thread and wanted the addy so that they can read it to.

So you all have fun.....Funny thing is they keep saying the same thing....."GET A LAWYER AND SUE THE SH!T OUT OF MR. LAWSON".

Can anyone tell me why they would say that if what was posted was the truth?

So Gubitz, Tippie just keep typing. I plan on taking the HCSO advice. At 3:oo today I have a appointment with a civil attorney.

Hope you two can produce all this paperwork at you have been quoting

[Neil Gubitz]

Does anyone else see the great Freudian slip in this last statement from Lawson??

....So you all have fun.....Funny thing is they keep saying the same thing....."GET A LAWYER AND SUE THE SH!T OUT OF MR. LAWSON"....

LMAO

[Wilomn]

neil, in the great horse's a$$ race between you and dave I knew from the get go that both of you were scumbags and never placed a bet.

You lie ALL the time. You have lied today about not telling any lies.

To sell someone a lizard like the one you did to Rozann and Mike's daughter, a lizard that you KNEW would be dead soon and one that you assured Rozann was eating like a pig, is the same as stealing her money.

That's just one example.

Dave's a scumbag, you're a scumbag.

I never bet on one of you over the other, you are both pitiful examples of humanity at its worst. It seems that he may well be a better example of that than you but, it is only by degree, not because he is and you aren't.

YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED AT ALL neil, not now, not ever. You seem to be pathological in your lies, sort of like you accuse someone else of being. It surprises me not at all.

Wes Pollock

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

That has to be the best, funniest Freudian slip I have seen yet. Way to go Dave.

[Darin Chappell]

Neil,

If you read animosity into what I wrote, you're mistaken. Animosity requires a degree of emotional inolvement that I simply cannot spare for you. What I said was, that IF you are truly making amends, and are willing to no longer act like you have in the past, I CAN forgive and move onward.

We're not going to pal around together or anything, but I am not angry with you to the point that you are the focus of my BOI existence. I don't particularly trust you, but I won't put you in a position in relation to my life where that will be any kind of a problem for me.

I am willing to live and let live, so long as your "repentence" for previous prevarications and jerk-like attitudes remains intact. You and I burried the hatchet on here once before, remember? I told you then, that I forgave your infractions of common courtesy and honesty, and you were saying then much what you are saying now. So, all I am telling you here, is the ball is now firmly in your court. If you are willing to be a productive member of the community, great! If not, your propensity for shooting yourself in the foot while it is wedged firmly in your mouth will undoubtedly undo you yet again. In relation to how we veiw you here, we will all be following your lead, Neil.

[Darin Chappell]

Dave is likely not represented by counsel. If he were, he would have been told to keep his mouth shut here on the BOI! If I were his attorney, I would look into the purchase of a well-fitted muzzle!!!

[ms_terese]

OK, Dave, do I understand you correctly?

You are saying that the document that has been posted here with a case # of 03-061536, the one that is initialed by Detective Masci and Sgt. Clamon, the one that indicates you are charged with other crimes (by the check mark at the bottom of the page), the one that says you admitted to committing the offense of Susin Tippi's burglary.......you are saying that document is false?

Please elaborate. Was the entire document forged? Did you refuse to sign the confession after agreeing that you would, therefore making the document null and void? What is your explanation for that document, Dave?

[Stardust]

Wes,
I would ask that you do not use what happened in the transaction with me, my daughter Courtney and Neil. My daughter reads this as well, and is more than willing to come on and say that herself that it is over and all is forgiven and SETTLED.
Isn't that what counts? That WE are satisfied with it?
Mike took longer. But he as well is, and if he would care to elaborate he can on his own.
Thank you.

[Neil Gubitz]

Darrin.... I can accept and respect that....

Wes.... your "reputation" is showing.... but, I won't bring myself down to your level anymore....

[Wilomn]

Rozann, I understand that you are all satisfied with how it turned out.

However, that was a well known deal of neil's. At this point it has NOTHING at all with how any of you feel about how he FINALLY handled it but, it does have everything to do with the type of person neil is.

He is a lying theif. His interaction with you and yours was merely icing on the cake. So long as he keeps spouting that he never lies and never steals I'll keep pointing out that he is, in fact, lying.

Wes Pollock

[ms_terese]

Rozann,

I think Wes has stated numerous times that you guys resolved your issue with Neil. However, he can't forgive Neil for what was done. It's not his issue to resolve, but it *IS* the basis for his opinion of Neil. I can relate, because I have based my opinion of another company (whose name I won't bring up here, lest this thread spiral completely out of control again) on their actions with a customer that is NOT me. Even if they make it right with that customer, their actions throughout the transaction caused me to decide that I would *NEVER* do business with them, nor trust them. Your transaction is simply one that Wes will always use as reference to why he feels the way he does.

[Julie Moore]

I know he has a criminal record a mile long and has served time in the past. I would think that he would be on probation or something?

I too, do not understand why he is not in jail. Dave is infact on probabtion until February '04 if I am not mistaken - I would have to find the paperwork. How convenient that he "forgot" to mention to his probation officer about his two most recent arrests (8/13/03 and 10/3/03).

[JungleHabitats]

... any more Case #'s you have "forgot about "

seems like you have been a very busy man this year ,

Four counts of FORGERY

OBTAIN.PROP. FOR WORTHLESS CK (MORE THAN $ <didnt list amount>

lost a judgement to Neil Gubitz

And admitted by paper work submitted from the HCSO to Burglary / Grand Theft


how many more cases you have floating around dave ?

[Stardust]

Wes, Terese,

I am fully aware why Wes keeps bringing it up. And everytime I am in a postition to say that Neil did make good. If for nothing else but to let readers know the other end everytime.
It is well known, and in my opinion does not have to be dragged up again and again, it becomes redundant. According to Wes, this was just the "icing on the cake" it is NOT the basis for his dislike of Neil. Wes has the rest of the cake he can talk about over and over. That thread is there for everyone to read, no need to constantly repeating itself.
Wes has not in his statement said numerous times that Neil and I have resolved the issue, I keep coming back on AFTER Wes and saying that. He then comes BACK on and agrees. Big difference.
Makes me wish I did not tell my experience and why I do not anymore, and as others have said why they do not come on here anymore to post for that reason.
Shame, without new people feeling comfortable to post their experiences the BOI could become nothing more than people who have been on here going over and over old experiences.
If Wes has a vendetta against Neil, there are other things he can go on to.

[Wilomn]

Even so, with the picture of that "healthy" uromastix neil sold you, there is nothing else that needs to be said.

It is all right there in those pictures, of that nealy dead and then, next day I believe it was, VERY dead lizard. He should never have sold it to begin with and it is a perfect example of the type of person he is.

Wes Pollock

[Stardust]

I am glad you said that Wes, nothing more needs to be said, it is all right there picture and all. I agree with that.

[KNOBTAIL]

go through to get your message across. We understand that you have some real problems with Neils existence. If all the angels in heaven said Neil was right, you would say he was wrong. Its a no win situation, regardless of what anyone seems to say that is even slightly positive

You have never met Neil, you have never done business with Neil, but you seem to concern yourself with his inventory, his difficulties with others, which is none of your business since it does not affect you, pocketbook wise. Even if Neil makes good on a bad situation, you seem to complain about that. Where does this end, and more importantly, when does this stop! I hope Neil reads this as I would at this juncture get some legal advise. You have just crossed the line and are becoming a predator.

You seem like an intellegent guy, so why not leave him alone. You dont have to convince people about Neil, he has done a very good job himself, whether good or bad. But your not his daddy. JERRY TRESSER

[ms_terese]

Ro, I see your point as well, I just meant that you can't really remove your situation from Wes' reasoning on Neil, but I guess you weren't really asking that. It all gets very confusing.

Wes, maybe you can just state that if anyone is interested in your reasons for your opinion of Neil, they can email you for a list of links on the BOI? Then people can see all of it.

You're also correct about it being a shame that some people will not post their experiences on the BOI, as you no longer do either. I guess the choice about coming forth on a public forum is one that everyone has to make for themselves, because it does sometimes open a can of worms. However, if people post facts, realize that not everyone will agree with them, and allow themselves to disregard people who do not deserve a response, posting on the BOI shouldn't really be unduly burdensome.

The BOI has its imperfections, as does everything else I can think of, but it certainly serves a purpose. For that, I'll accept the aggravation that sometimes accompanies it.

[fancypet]

I have been asked to included the rest of the documents about my break-in here on the BOI. I need to know how to post them if I scan them and then what. I tried to cut and paste and was unable to. Forgive me for sounding stupid about this. I normally do not have time to do things like this.
The other documents included the animal cruelty concerning my break-in. the SUSPECT strangled my son's baby ducks 'probably because they were making noise'. OR like all the other break-ins where animals were killed it was done out of meaness. Look at Paridise Pets in Zephyrhills, Their tanks of fish and rodents were thrown down and the fish and mice stepped on.

Thank you all for your support. I will post pics and the list of stolen reptiles as soon as I learn how to post the pics.

Thanks again

Susin April Tippie

[Copperheadman]

This is truely the saddest thread I have ever read on this board.Hard to determine which is the worst.

[ms_terese]

Susan,

Once you scan the documents, you should be able to attach them as files in your post, probably only one file at a time.

[Wilomn]

Well shucks, I must have missed the sugarplums and lollipops class. Must have been cleaning cages.

I'm out of this thread, at least for the time being. neil, if you mention me again I may well come back in it. I reckon you're taking out rope like it's going out of style. I sure hope I get an invite to your NEXT hanging.

Wes Pollock

[JungleHabitats]

I do agree with rozann
please here me out and please dont get bent out of shape.

This thread was posted with "express requests" to stick to the facts of THIS deal. the alleged person who committed the breakins in the tampa area and any therefore direct impliments thereof.Its very previlant if anyone does a search for Neils names there one gazillion articles to read.Now im sure this thread could have been probably 15-20 pages shorter had just the FACTS & QUESTIONS of the topic been replied to.We know and understand why you post your thoughts of Neil G,has he been a angel from the heavans ... not quite , has he told lies ?yes he has has he suffered from them ? yes he has .Will he tell more ? time will only tell what Neil will do and only Neil will know what he will do. I respects anyones opions that posts here do i always agree probably not do i have to No but i do look at both sides of the coin you can follow every thread that had Name in it and tell people about what he did , BUT the only thing IMO its going to do is make people think that you have a personell vendetta(sp) out for him which you most likely do and it is due to his dealing with Rozyanns purchase from him .I think the best thing to do if you feel this strong to let people know of his deal is to start your own thread in the BOI you post what you know , and facts of it .Then Rozyann can post the fact that she was reimbursed and was satisfied . then when people search the name "snakePit/NeilGubitz" its there and i ask for the sake of the BOI to keep it to one post about him there .There would be no need to go back and forth about this and that to only end up with 10-15 or 20 pages of saying the same thing and im sure webslave would appreciate it as well when it comes to bandwidth use for repeatedly stated topics.I think if Webslave could see to it to allow Neil back into the BOI that there should be something said for that alone he didnt have to even give Neil the time of day and we know how webslave felt about what neil did to become bannedhere to start with. so all i ask is that for the benefit of the rest of the BOI members and those to come try to restrain from feeling it is your personell duty to RUIN NEIL GUBITZ. as its rather obvious if hes going to be ruined he can do it all alone .

Neil to you i ask that you do the same youre back in the BOI make the change in the other direction every time you rebute what Wes says it stems a response and then it just trickles down from there >IMo for you with the light that has been shed so far in this ordeal is a chance to show that you can be productive and not reactive part of the BOI. You know what everyone is expecting from and of you here im sure that i dont speak alone that your past is still going to haunt you here and some people will never get over the fact that someone they had at one time felt was afriend passed a line with the email you mistakingly sent out expressing your vies of the BOI and members. all you can do from here out is make the change to make a name back in the community .I am sure it wont be done overnight or even by next yr who knows when it will be done .but from a outsiders view looking in before you punch the keys in certain threads &posts think about , review it and change it if it needs to be .We know how you feel about how you feel. show people that the "old Neil" is making ammends dont just spout out in anger sit down walkaway and think of your next post. think of it like a recovering person that is around something they KNOW they shouldnt be take the time to think before you go off and post something thats going to re hash old feelings ....


ok im done

[Darin Chappell]

Jerry,

In Wes' defense, how anyone conducts himself or herself in a public manner, especially in ripping off people via the internet, affects ALL OF US and is of a concern to anyone wanting to keep this industry as free from external regulation as possible. So, him making sure that Neil is exposed for the behavior he has enacted in the past, is something that is well within the bounds of judgment for anyone wanting to help in the self-policing of the herp industry. In fact, if you will go back to some older threads here on the BOI, you will find that a large number of those posts Neil made were of the very same type!

Further, I can see absolutely no reason why Wes should fear any kind of legal ramification for his postings. All he has done is to remind people of what actually transpired. He has not lied about anyone, so libel is out as a possible charge, and the concept of malicious intent is extremely difficult to prove if he has made some sort of error in his allegations. So, I would think Neil's time would be better spent than to try to sue over the posts Wes has made here.

Jerry, just a point for you to consider . . . Neil posts or has something good said about him, then Wes immediately posts that Neil should be seen as a bad guy, then you immediately post to say that Wes is all wet and a predatory internet stalker. Can you explain the difference to me?

[Wilomn]

Alan, jerry, anyone else who cares, I do not have a vendetta against neil.

I have an extreme dislike for the way he conducts himself.

That's it. If you condone the animals he has sold and will most likely sell again, fine. That's on you. If you really want a shark in the guppy pond, have at it.

Now, as I said, providing neil leaves me out of it and does not fall back into his old ways, I'm done. I don't think that's too hard to understand.

Wes Pollock

[KNOBTAIL]

and I understand your feelings about ridding people who seem to drift to this industry, create their havoc and disappear like rats in the night. You and I both know and I am sure Wes as well that these difficulties are money motivated. I have been dealing with this very problem for the past 40 years.

But my position at this jucture is not policing the entire herp community with people who are indirectly wrapped up in controversy. My argument is that if their are any infractions of business dealings, their are remedies that can handle the matter. Whether civil or criminal liablilities exist, get an attorney, go to the Internet Fraud, FBI, or whatever. But Wes is providing an overkill. As mentioned he takes other peoples miseries, and lights a torch and becomes the keeper of the flame. Whenever their name is mentioned, Wes is sure to be their, regardless of the post or the situation. This is not normal behavior, it is a fixated disease. Darin , some of the posts that I was reading about Wes attempting to figure out how many Scarlet Kings Neil sold, and attempting to catch him in a lie about Neils inventory is ludicrous. Who does that other than an obsessed person. I really believe that Wes has a death wish for Neil. When one person hates someone as much as Wes seems to promote here on the BOI, I would be very concerned. We are not talking about protecting the public from Neil, but protecting Wes from himself. I can tell you right now, I would certainly attempt to get councel, whether successful or not, Wes does not just post a bad guy thread on Neil because of his experiences, but on everyone elses.......over and over again. Thats habitual, and it disturbs me . JERRY

[Wilomn]

Are you the same jerry that only yesterday sent me an email telling me how much he had enjoyed debating the whole neil thing and signed off as "very respectfully" jerry tresser?

How amusing. I don't have the email as there was something about it that did not seem wholesome and I tossed it in the circular file upon reading it.

Make up your mind jerry. And once again I ask, in your own vernacular so you can understand, why do you have such a hard on to defend neil?

Wes Pollock

[JungleHabitats]

sorry the post was written before you had posted you would stay idle and i was writing in between cleaning rats bins , i didnt mean for it to sound like i was "on your case" im not . i think that you made a noble statement in letting the sleeping dog sleep Neil please do the same

[KNOBTAIL]

meet over the net a private email indicating my respect for their opinion, whether I am right or wrong in my arguments. I see nothing wrong with it, nor is their any ulterior motive for my actions other than being mature in my dealings with people. Now if you have a problem with that, its your problem!

Now just as I have told Neil, I will tell you the same: I am unconcerned about Neils past behavior, nor do I condone his past actions. As Ive stated ad nauseum, there are remedies for addressing these problems. But what you are doing goes beyond the norm. You certainly have indicated that sometimes you can get a bit overzelous in your attacks on Neil. I see it as a disease. Ive met people like you before, but they were killing in the name of God, another disease. So I am very sensitive to these outbursts that I have seen on this site by you. This has nothing to do with Neil. Ive indicated that I met him once for 5 minutes, emailed him as Ive emailed you and countless of others on this board, and even something as simple as that has some hidden agenda..........according to the gospels of Wes. JERRY TRESSER
ENOUGH SAID ON THE SUBJECT

[Wilomn]

jerry, it would have been enough said had you simply said nothing. Now you're comparing me to people who kill, in other words murderers. Talk about reaching.

Since you obviously have not read all that I have posted, please take the time to do so now. You will see where I have very PUBLICLY stated that harming gubitz NEVER entered into my thoughts.

It's guys like you, zealot hunters, that bring guys like me, over zealous perhaps but actually trying to do good, into question. You don't understand, so I must be bad. You don't like it so I must be like something else you don't like, uhhhhh let's pick out guys who talk to some imaginary god and then go kill people.

HHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAhaahahahahahahahahah aHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahaHHahahahahahahahahahahahh

Not bloody likely.

Think before you write or make such base accusations again, jerry. It's not nice as well as not true.

Wes Pollock

[fancypet]

I am asking for help from everyone.
If you know of another place that Dave sold reptiles through and maybe the email address or name that he used please email me.

Thank you very much,

Susin April Tippie

[Dennis Gulla]

It's just soooo warm and fuzzy here.........Let's all have one big group hug....

Amazing! Do we have half or all of the liberal Democratic party here?

People and business' like Neil Gubitz and Upstate Exotics, have no fear!! It really does not matter if you have ripped people off, sold them sick half dead animals, sold them something other then they requested, stole their money, lied repeatedly, been banned not Once, but Twice from the BOI.........No big deal!!!! All you have to do is apologize a couple of times, send warm and fuzzy private e-mails telling them your sorry and you will be completely foregivin! End of story!

You then will be back in the good graces of the BOI crowd and in no time be able to do your lieing, cheating and stealing once again.

By the way, if someone were to collect 25 warning points, would you be banned for real or will we get nine lives like Neil.

Unreal!! Now we honest good guys being attacked by other good guys who defend bad guys.

Hey Dave, just relax and do not post for a while........all will be fine....

[Darin Chappell]

Jerry,

With all due respect to your obviously extensive experience in the reptile business (superior, I am certain, especially when compared to my own), I am not at all sure that this makes you qualified to address any possible personality deficiencies you may suspect in others. This is especially true considering the ease with which the written posts here are commonly misunderstood.

That being the case, you might really want to consider refraining from using phrases like "fixated disease," "obsessed person," and "death wish." All of those may well be clinical situations from which some do suffer, but I highly doubt that Wes does. I am even more certain of your inability to correctly diagnose whatever problems someone might suffer over the internet.

Really, we all ought to just leave this alone, wouldn't you agree?

[PAUL BOLLINGER]

You hit the nail on the Head!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KNOBTAIL]

I can resist anything but temptation, so my reply is simple. My remarks to you pertained to your extremist position. Its the degree of that extreme condition that raises my concern. Ive delt with both kinds your and more violent approaches to their position. In either case, I think your are so fixated with your neverending persuit of Neil, that it blinds your best intentions. By the way, shame on you, for taking a simple positive email and attempting to use it as nothing other than what it was meant to be.

[Neil Gubitz]

Susin.... in response to YOUR question.... there are a LOT of FREE sites to sell herps on.... have you tried finding out some of their websites and asking them if Lawson ever posted there (just like you did with HerpAds)??.... I'm sure if you did a search on Google.com for "herp sites", or "reptiles" (and the like), you'll find many places one could list their herps for free....
If I knew of any others that might be used, I would certainly tell you.... I also know that there are others on this thread who have posted that know Lawson a LOT better than I do.... maybe THEY can give you some leads....

[W.Wedeking]

Can we please stop measuring penis size here and stick to the topic of this thread?

Isn't it bad enough that there is so much fertilizer in this thread it smells like a dairy?

[JungleHabitats]

is to all lick our lips and YELL 'HEYYYYY KOOOOLLLAIDDDDD'

Please i think we are all in need of some serious LOVEBOMBING HERE

[DThomas]

Originally posted by fancypet
Thank you all for your support. I will post pics and the list of stolen reptiles as soon as I learn how to post the pics.

Thanks again

Susin April Tippie

Seeing as everyone is still at the Neil lynching party,lol, I'll offer to help here. If you wish, you can e-mail me the scanned documents and I will size them and post them here for you. I wont be able to post them until about 11pm MST due to work, but I will post them.

[JungleHabitats]

and will raise you .....

Susan ill post them asap if you have the mready and can email them to me ...



"The BOI .....I love this Game "

[herpetological]

I've always been worried about "fantics" when it comes to anything... religion, politics.....judgement. For example when someone has no beliefs or every moment of their life is ruled by"something." (Yes, this will be slightly vague...some will understand) There is a happy medium. Within this happy medium lies...truth, honesty, intelligence,................ response without overwhelming emotion etc. Then, and only then can a person be balanced and fair. (Gee... I sound like some suth-sayer) (Can't spell and my keys are sticking!) It seems that Wes you have taken on the gauntlets to oppose Neil. Not that Neil has not deserved some of what he got. But, damn....can't it simply be..."Glad your deal went good... You should have checked these threads... It just doesn't look good. Just like Neil and Lawson have not "looked good" here for some time. Much of it has been due to their childish name calling and emotional attacks on each other. As well as the threads that oft-times were deserved. However, at this point why not do as you said and leave off unless Neil mentions you. If he does or in any way indicates that he is refering to you.....I will catch his Axx as well! I hope he continues to back off a bit(I hear teeth grinding) and has patience. Mistakes were made, we all know that. As was said by another member...as long as he is a productive member he is welcome. Hopefully we all are. Lawson.... if these things aren't true please do not go back to accusations or name calling. Wait and post facts. Emotion and anger here will NOT prevail. You see...I hold no sides.. I just watch and wait.. Everything will come out in the end. Can everyone hum the cult mantra?Hhhmmmmmm!
Yes Neil did say that Lawson was suspected of these incidents. Defenders on both sides...read...SUSPECTED! Not convicted or charged. I do however, think that it should be those individuals that come here and say, "We suspect". Because it just makes it look like another attack. He said, she said. No offense Neil but, I have to play the Devil's advocate on that one. At least you used the proper term...Suspected. Keeps everyone out of litigation! LOL! Amazing... Take a breath Neil your doing good!(sound of teeth grinding! Not mine!) LOL! Anyway, why don't we all ease up and not attack each other for whatever side is taken. Hopefully, this will be done soon. Maybe, it will come down to..BIG EVIL...little evil. At least little evil has a chance at
redemption????? Maybe.... Thanks Ray G. HBR

[Julie Moore]

It was suggested to me that I should go ahead and post this since everyone is now seeing Dave for what he truly is. Dave is in fact on probation until February 2004 from being charged with stalking (not from Nikki – I have no idea what is going on with that situation). His probation officer is Ms. Candice Elkin at The Salvation Army Correctional Services in Hillsborough County (Case#02-035723). Ms. Elkin told me that yes – Dave having been arrested is a violation of his probation and that he will be going to court for it. Why they didn’t just keep him in jail is beyond me.

Now for the can of worms. . .

Well – I got several peoples opinions as to whether or not I should post this part and was more or less told that I may as well go for it. I’m sure it will come of no surprise to anyone either, with all that has come to light about Dave since this thread was started. Now I know everyone probably couldn’t forget Neil’s May 2002 break in. I know a few details about that break in that are not here-say. Dave did in fact have Neil’s animals - and YES – I actually saw the animals, no one told me anything except for Dave having told me that they were Neil’s. They all got sold at Tony Cueto’s Raleigh, NC show that weekend. Now for the other part. Does anyone remember the mysterious phone calls that Neil’s father received form the illusive James Thornton? That was Dave playing his games again too. On several different occasions I actually saw and heard Dave place the phone calls to Mr. Gubitz posing as James Thornton. I never posted about any of this before because I know the games Dave plays. Like his nasty little insinuations to Mrs. Tippie – he tried pulling the same thing with me. He even went as far as somehow getting the passwords to my e-mail addresses (changing my info & totally locking me out of them) and e-mailed all kinds of horrible lies to people that we both knew, posing as me. Like I said before – I so glad to see everything is finally coming full circle for Dave. Isn’t karma a b**ch?
:laugh:

[Neil Gubitz]

Julie.... Thank you SO MUCH.... I really didn't think you would be that nasty to me in the emails I received from "you".... I always KNEW that it had to be Lawson posing as Thornton, because Thornton never knew my father's phone number but Lawson did.... I know there is no recourse I can take at this point in time to recover my animals or money for them, it's just been too long and I'm sure the statute of limitations is long over.... I'm just glad you had the guts to admit it now, even if it's too late to take action.... And I am glad to (finally) know that it WAS Lawson who burglarized my store!
Julie, I have ALWAYS liked you (and Lyman), and if you remember, I even tried to warn you about Lawson, to no avail.... I guess love IS blind....
But, you are more than welcome to call me at home if you'd like and we can discuss this in private, as I know there is more info that you don't want public.... and I would never make it public....
Again... THANK YOU!

Neil

[herpetological]

Doesn't that open a new can of worms? Tina Turk HBR (Fooled ya, you thought it was Ray. LOL!)

[John Apple]

Neil ..are those your posts being somewhat civil and personable to your 'fellow' herpers??
Does it seem that you are 'trying' to show some remorse for any deed that was dirty [hmm bearded comes to mind]
And does it seem that you are trying your interpretation of the truth as that ...the truth.
Is it just me or do you feel you can be accepted by all of us that you have called A$$holes at one time or another [remember the e-mail]
There is a forest of new leaves that you need to turn over.


And to you Dave...Don't drop the soap and don't shave your back

One more thing , this is for all you out there...HAVEN"T we all seen this before?? Well haven't we?:rolleyes:

[Neil Gubitz]

John.... believe it or not, you're going to see a much kinder and gentler Neil Gubitz from now on.... now, please let me get back to turning that forest of leaves over, it's going to take awhile.... but, it'll be done in time.... if you're willing to GIVE me that time....

Neil

[Python Dreams]

In Wes's defence I would like to say that maybe some of Neils defenders should lay off..... Wes has every right to show whatever contempt or disdain he feels in any thread pertaining to Neil Gubits or anyone else here on the BOI... IT is due to a very bad history and behaviors that are completely unnacceptable displayed here very publicly on the BOI. Even for Stardust to worry about what is being said is pretty silly in my eyes... I'm glad you have such compassion for a man like Neil, but I hope the next little girl has the same luck if she even knows about the BOI... You think that was the only time? We all know people that have experiences that they dont post like your talking about.... How does that help anyone? I've heard bad stories about certain individuals (possilby Neil) where they were still giving him good guy posts here.... Will I say anything? NO..... If it was my circumstance... NO MATTER WHAT... If your only post is to jump on Wes for his views, your post is way less needed here. HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DONT GET RIPPED OFF OR LIED TOO!!!!!!!! He only argues it because he keeps getting called out.... Their should be a peice of history in every thread to let all the future customers know the true personality of the person in question. I personally think that Neil is probably a very intelligent, witty, and friendly guy.... I also think that it kinda eats me up seeing his posts here again, knowing that you basically can do and say anything and lie time and time again disrespecting his own customers, friends, and anyone that has any value in the BOI, be banned twice, then come back like a rash...... It makes it all seem kinda like a bad joke....
Thanks,
Tom Baker

[JungleHabitats]

i agree to a point , Their should be a peice of history in every thread to let all the future customers know the true personality of the person in question.
But i think that only in a post where someone INQUIRES about that person . I honestly think that if someone has a "good guy" posted on anyone that that post should have the same right as you stated above to be left alone. In any post thats a inquiry i say ya its fairgame to give your opinion of the person there asking about.

But to repeat the same point over and over and over is somwhat ridiculous IMHO on a good guy post . let that post remain what it is a good gut post as i have stated there are miles of threads on Neil and if someone is going to make a purchase from him its there responsibility to do the homework. iftheres 50 threads on him and out of 50 there 20 which are 'good guy posts" and 30 that are bad guy posts and then 25 posts that have a inquiry about him thats where opinions belong. there wherein that buyer should be able to come to a logical conclusion as to the person they intend to do buisness with , if they then make the choice to do so and get burned , and post then you will most doubtedly have replies to "I told you so" if it goes well and is posted why should that post turn into what this one did .
i say yes inform when asked --- reply when warned-- and walk away when itgoes well and wait for the next post to give your opinions of that person .

i think that its valueable to let people know but there is a time a place and a appropriate thread to do so

[Adam Block]

Neil, you and Seamus are the two people that had what it took to be pro active and call me. As you well know most of what happends on the BOI is talked about many times on the phone before it's ever mentioned here. Even then more is done and worked out on the phone then in here as you and I have spoken many times.

I had respect for you from the start just for picking up the phone and being a man about things when I was clearly acting like a child. It's very easy to site here and judge somebody or comment on what your gut tells you. I know this because I've done it to you and others.

My gut told me on the BOI that you did your own store. When I spoke with you on the phone I felt like there wasn't a chance in hell you did. Because of that I bounced back and forth until I just stopped speaking with you and you stopped speaking with me.

You and I are two peas in a pod in many respects but I think we both know that based on how we've dealt with eachother. We're also the two least liked publicly and most liked privatly. That doesn't even touch the fact that if there were a vote to boot two people off the BOI you and I would come up the only two with votes.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I'm sorry for sending you mixed signals and not giving you the same respect you've given me. I'll be moved to FL in the next 3 months so it'll be nice to meet you face to face.

Sorry I jumped on the bandwagon, I if nobody else should have known better.

Take that test in my signature, I'm interested to know what you are even if you just email it to me.

[Stardust]

Tom,
In my own defense, and I am quite capable of defending myself :)
I am not a defender of Neils. And actually, am quite good friends with Wes. We are just smart enough to not let the BOI and differences of opinions to get in the way of that.
If you think I "only" came on here to "jump" on Wes you are sadly mistaken. It is not Wes being called out, but quite the opposite, Wes chooses to post at every turn.
If you have fully read this thread then you would see that the general consensus was to get back to the topic at hand.
Glad you are Wes' great defender, as if he needs on LOL.
What I will agree on is that I do NOT want to see kids hurt from ANYONE!!!
The rest that you said about my posts not being worth much or being "silly" well, I won't even dignify that with an answer.

[Wilomn]

Thanks for the support Tom but I was just talking to god and he said not to pi$$ of jerry, that he's not as stable as he once was and never reads the fine print.

As far as Rozann goes, I think she just misunderstood what I was getting at and that I was still on about neil's and her's bad deal which I was not. It seems several people got hung up on that. Let me make it clear for everyone- Rozann and Mike and their daughter are all satisfied with how things finally turned out with neil. On that issue I have no issue at all. NONE.ZIP.NADA.

My entire problem with him was brought to a head by the FACT that he sold them a sick snake and then replaced it with a lizard that was practically dead and should never have been sold in the first place much less as a gift for a kid. I have a problem with that type of repeated behavior. I think all of you should as well.

While we're on what I think, let me say that I think neil should not have been allowed back on here. He was banned for good reason the first time and for even better reason the second time. God said so, heh heh heh.

Now that he's back again I will, as I have said before, lighten up unless I'm brought back into things by my name being mentioned or him falling back on his "old" ways.

I certainly think that his presence here is more of a detriment than a benifit.

Wes Pollock

[WebSlave]

I certainly think that his presence here is more of a detriment than a benifit.


Be that as it may, the more I have been thinking about it, the more I had to come to the conclusion that unless I want to eventually become a "you-kno-who" junior, I needed to back away from the banning stuff. Basically, I'm not going to be playing "mommy" on the BOI. What right do I have to tell YOU who you can and cannot listen to here? If you all can't figure it out yourself, determine who the BS artists are and who are the ones that you should just skip over their messages, then that is your problem, not mine.

I've heard people referring to the BOI as a "joke", "cesspool", "Board of Idiots", "soap opera", etc., etc., etc. Well fine. Everyone will have their own opinions and they can think about this as they please. YOU make the decision on what the BOI will be to you by what YOU read and what YOU post here. I am not going to make that decision for you. It will ALL be here for you to read, and YOU have to sift through it.

Personally I don't care either way. From the start the BOI has never helped me with the people I have gotten screwed by, has cost me a lot of money to keep running, sucked away more of my time than certainly any of you can even imagine, cost me access to kingsnake.com defending YOUR rights to post here, and basically been a tremendously huge pain in the rear. For all of that, I think the only thing I can claim as a benefit is that I get to run my SerpenCo.com site for free (well almost) on one of my servers. Whoopie..... What's that, maybe $15 per month I'm saving?

So if I decide to cut my losses and reduce my mental workload by pulling back on my day to day involvement and trying to make this site what only half of you will appreciate anyway, what of it?

The BOI is ALWAYS going to be here, because now I have no choice in the matter. You can participate in whatever manner you feel most comfortable, but please stop complaining if it is not entirely exactly what you want it to be, because I'm just going to stop listening to the complaints.

So I let Neil back on. Tough noogies...

[Wilomn]

Webslave it's your site and your rules. Rules....... interesting concept. Oh well.

I believe that you have asked for input on this site several times. Now that you are getting it, it's tough noogies???? That is more like jeff than anything else you've done.

You had a policing system, you had warning points. Those were good things. A little structure is not amiss. Personally I think you have taken a giant step backwards in this, yet again, unbanning. It sort of says the heck with the rules and the guidelines, do as you will.

I think most of the people who have complained about this site have been on the recieving end of an inquiry that was not too pleasant. I don't see much sense in worrying overmuch about them. Those who have been helped are overwhelmingly in favor of this site.

As far as playing mommy, I don't think any of us were looking for that from you, though I may be wrong, I know I wasn't looking for it.

Oh well, bottom line is it is your site to do with as you see fit. I do think you will see a lessoning in the quality that used to be here though. At least for now.

Wes Pollock

[WebSlave]

Sorry, but I did not ask your opinion in what I did about Neil, and I am not doing so in retrospect. Personally I could not care less. Once you came in here mouthing off like you did about him, do you think it was "fair" that I kept Neil defenseless to say anything in his defense in a "public" forum? So in effect, it is because of you (and a few others) that left me no damn choice in the matter.

So you have yourself to thank for my breaking of my own rules, Wes. Or would you have preferred that I give you a defenseless target to pick on? That sounds real fair to you, I guess. But it certainly did not to me. I was already contemplating the whole idea of banning, so this just pushed my decision over the edge.

So yes, if some people don't like the fact that I allowed Neil to come back in (and Adam Block as well earlier), tough noogies. It was my call to make, and the fairest of the choices available to me under the circumstances.

And if you don't like the fact that I don't want to spend nearly every waking moment policing this joint, again, tough noogies. You have NO idea how much static I get from people when I assess them even minor warning points. How many times have YOU yourself emailed me back saying the warning points I gave you were unfair?

Anyway, I still have my REAL work to do tonight. You all do what you want in here.

[Wilomn]

Rich/Webslave, I believe I have emailed you twice and posted twice or perhaps three times about points you have given me. I am thinking that on the two that I emailed you about, once you explained why you assessed me those points I was in agreement with you.

As far as neil goes, you banned him. You unbanned him. If I manage to get myself kicked off a site or out of a place by my actions against whatever rules are in force there then I am gone regardless of what anyone else says about me. Tough noogies it is.

As far as your being fair goes, you have to decide what fair is. You have made your decision. I disagree but, one of the cool things about this site is the fact that even though I disagree with you I can say so and you'll leave it up.

I don't think it's fair that neil is back. He's lost the PRIVILEDGE twice. It's not a right to come here, it's most assuredly a priviledge. I never made neil a target, he did that all on his own.

I don't think I left you with no choice, just my opinion and obviously different from yours. You had the choice to stick by what you had previously decided or not.

I don't think it's always a bundle of fun to run this site. I would imagine that the last few days exemplify this statement wonderfully. I do think you do well at it. I certainly neither want nor think you should have to spend nearly every waking moment policing this site. What a hell that would be.

I am glad that this is not like ks, though, let me reiterate that. I may not have the popular opinion but I do appreciate the ability to put out what I think.

You know, I seriously considered ending this with the line "if you don't like my opinion enough you could always ban me" but, I am really not trying to be a smartass here. Discourse in this fashion, an internet message board not in real time, is not always easy or smooth. So I will end it with this instead, "I appreciate the opportunity to come here and post my opinions, ask for help when I need it, help where I may and, on occasion, prove myself a fool. I have meant no disrespect to you Rich and by saying so I in no way wish to get brown on my nose either. You owe me nothing, never thought you did."

Done

Wes Pollock

[WebSlave]

Wes - It's simply a matter of thinking this through all of the way.

Is it fair for the BOI to ban someone and not allow them to defend themselves to posts made by other people? Is it fair that people could then make statements about that person, whether true or false, and that person was not allowed to make a rebuttal?

Is it fair, no matter what the reason for their being banned, that I have taken away their right to be given a fair assessment by the people reading the words posted about them here?

I'm sorry, but I came to the inescapable conclusion that it just is NOT fair, and in some respects makes the BOI more of a joke then some other people's opinion of it. It then becomes a kangaroo court with often one sided testimony.

So once I reached that conclusion, I had to carry it even further. If it is not fair, as mentioned above, then what purpose is served by banning someone? Do I then also ban even the mentioning of their name here in a negative light? Would I be fair to allow this sort of talk? Well, my belief is that it would not be fair at all. So banning would have to go hand in hand with removing everyone else's right to even talk about that person. That certainly seems self defeating to me.

And it left a big hole in the BOI as well. Heck, all a bad guy would have to do is to just come on here and figure out a way to get banned immediately, hopefully before any bad press was published about them. They would then be scott free, based on the above scenario. No one could say a bad word about them since they were now banned.

Yes, there are going to be bans, but they will be temporary ones. Long enough to be a real deterrent to someone getting carried away, but short enough that I would not be uncomfortable allowing a discussion to take place about them in their absence.

A long while ago, the issue of determining a real identification of people posting messages here was topmost on my mind. The only way I could figure to do that was to do something like requiring positive ID. A credit card, for instance, where I would simply charge $1 to their credit card and in that way establish (at least somewhat) that it was not a bogus signup. But I hit the same wall with that as I did with this banning thing. If someone is being bashed in the BOI, whether fairly or unfairly, and the target of the talk complained about being held hostage to pay that $1 just to defend themselves, how could I refuse to let them in for free? So the entire plan would have been shot out of the water the first time this issue came up.

Besides, it is just darned tough for me to feel I am so pro-liberty with my beliefs, but then turn around and ban someone. I guess you just need to be in the driver's seat for a while to know what I mean by that. It is, surprisingly enough, rather stressful to ban someone. The times that Ken and Ritchie have had to do it in my stead, they both expressed a lot of regret and guilt about doing so here. I was actually glad to hear them say that, because for the longest time I thought there was just something wrong with me for feeling that way.

[Wilomn]

It's a tough row to hoe. I do understand, better now that the noogies aren't so prevelant, that there is just no way to keep the fredoms that are so important to you, and not just you alone, and not have this site accessable to everyone.

I do understand your feelings of guilt about the bannings you made in the past but I was considering them more as culls, strengthing the whole by getting rid of the bad. I think you must be a nicer guy than I am.

Thanks for the explanation.

Wes Pollock

[Adam Block]

cost me access to kingsnake.com defending YOUR rights to post here

Sorry (in my most pathetic voice)



You do a very good job, I think letting Neil back was wise. Both him and I were banned before the warning points and I think you may have even started them because of me.

Having the points makes it easy to see when you're getting out of line, I don't think Neil or I had that in check and while it shouldn't have my banning came as a shock to me at the time. Even more because I wasn't even able to view the site or anything being posted on it because I had a static IP.

Saddly for many of us we maybe do spend too much of our time in here. When I look at how few people from here are willing to even help with questions in the forums that's even more evident.

Even people that I wouldn't um, maybe loan my car or be good friends with like Ritchie Luna I have respect for because I see him trying to help people with questions and do good. Agree with him or not I know his intentions are good and he has a good heart.

Some people are here to cause trouble. Some are here to help and others just enjoy laughing at adults like me put their feet in their mouths and look like chidlish fools. Whatever brings people here the BOI has a cult following and you should be proud of what you've done. You have help more people then you can even imagine!

As for how much effort you put into the BOI. I say it should be in proportion to what you make an hour from it.



You all do what you want in here.
It will ALL be here for you to read, and YOU have to sift through it.

That sounds about right to me. People need the BOI and the fact that when you sort posts by views. All the bad guy garbage scum bag post have 20,000 views and there are good guy posts with 7 views just shows you human nature. We all love to see a car wreck but nobody wants to be in one.

[BrianB]

First, thanks Webslave. I may not do as much buying -- or any selling at all -- as a lot of the regulars, but I appreciate the board.

Second, I'd like to remind folks that there's an ignore button. Just click on the Profile button under a user's post, and at the bottom of the profile, right side, there's some small print that says "Add user to your ignore list" or something similar. Just click on that. I know it's not a perfect solution, for a number of reasons, but it's an option.

[John Apple]

Its the webslaves site..did I just say that up there
He let Neil back in for his own reasons, and if you read his posts, his reasons are truely admirable.
What we all think or don't think of Neil is on us.
whether we deal with Neil is on us
I also think Neil is an intelligent guy, maybe some of that same intelligence was used for tomfoolery.He [yes he] also deserves the right to defend himself as webslave said. Soooo in all FAIRNESS Neil was let back in.
Another thing also, a lot of 'Newbies' to the board can make thier own assumptions to what kind of person Neil is or was. With him not here how can they do that.
Neil seems to be one of the most trying guys around for the public opinion of himself, be it good or bad.
Lets talk about turning over new leaves..I have a record...yup sure do, did some pretty cr@ppy things in my life. Grabbed my rake and now I am the most honest guy I know...hands down.
maybe Neil is raking the forest full of leaves to turn over, maybe he is not...the future holds that.
Yes I am being sympathetic, after reading the webslaves post how can you not be.

[timopar]

I am what most would call a lurker and this thread has motivated me to post a few thoughts about the whole Neil Gubitz saga and how he came to be in the ill favor he is in.

Now just for the record, I am not a reptile breeder/dealer/shop owner, friend or aquaintence of Neil or anyone else on this BOI for that matter. I live in a small town in the middle of Georgia and have ONE snake(had 2 sold one). I come here to see what the reptile INDUSTRY is like, in the event that I one day aspire to breed or open a shop, so I have no personal stake in any of this.

Now, sorry if I am long winded, here is the story as I see it.
Neil owns a store in Tampa, Fl. He is a very active part of a growing community of concerned herpers that helps people with problem deals, the BOI. Neil spent quite a bit of time helping people to rectify problems here, mediating remedies to any number of problems. This help was done with the assistance and support of a great number of people on this same BOI and for years(?) he was a well liked and respected member of this community.
One day he comes to he board to report a terrible, dispicible and heart wrenching incident at his store. The store has been robbed, vandalized and many of his animals have been killed. With the news of such a great tragedy to one of its own, the BOI community bands together to support Neil. Donations are taken, words of support and encouragement are given and life moves on....Fast forward....Neil again comes to the board to report, yet again, a teriible dispicible and heart wrenching incident at his store. Once again the store has been robbed, vandalized and many of his animals are left for dead. This time the BOI community does much like it did the first time, donations encouraging words and support. BUT, this time a rumor begins to surface, talk of fraud and deceipt on Neils part begin to make ther way through the BOI.
At some point there are outright accusations made, Neil is suddenly a suspect in his own tragedy. The BOI community begins to doubt their previously respected member. Neil maintains his innocence amid the constant pressure of doubt and some rather aggressive questioning. Dave Lawson is mentioned and helps to spearhead the attack on Neil's character, while Neil points the finger to Dave. Private investigations are ordered by those that donated money in SUPPORT of Neil. The PI's report only supports the suspiscions of those that felt Neil was to blame and soon Neil is labeled a thief and liar. His position on the BOI slips to nil and soon his own words get him banned.
Now this is the way that I have seen this unfold, IN A NUT SHELL, I know there will be plenty of details that are left out, but, my point will illustrate that details are not the most important thing in undertanding Neils actions during this time.
Now, I understand that Neil had written several emails with some very nasty and mailicous things in them about people here on the BOI. These emails outraged many here on the BOI and earned Neil their disdain and resentment. I also know that these emails are the main reason Neil was seriously discredited and eventually aided in his being banned. But based on the way things unfolded, and the FACTS that are now surfacing about Dave Lawson's involvement in all these illegal activities, I for one can certainly understand Neil's loss of respect for the people on the BOI and many of the things that he did in that time frame are much more undertandable to me. Neil continually professed his innocence in the matter of his stores burglary's. Continually Neil was attacked and subject to constant ridicule by the very group of people that once supported him, the community to which he belonged turned on him during some of his hardest times. I think all of us may be able to understand many of the things that Neil said during that period of time, as many of us would have said the same or worse given the circumstances. This has absolutley NOTHING to do with is business dealings, I am speaking solely of his place hear on the BOI. I for one am very grateful that Rich has allowed him back, and I am sure that his attitude within the BOI will return to what it once was with time.
As to Neil's business dealings with Rozann and Mike. Yes a mistake was made, but all was rectified to the satisfaction of the customer and that is what it is all about, Customer Satisfaction. It seems to me that some people will never allow Neil the benefit of the doubt, but maybe if you take into consideration the above circumstances in his life over the last couple years, you will allow him a chance to show he has indeed changed, I know I will. I also know that if there is no sign of change, he will have earned his place on my bad list, but I will let him earn it. Just my humble and long winded opinion, not that it is going to change anyone else's.
Tim Larson

[The BoidSmith]

For those that enjoy excellent reading, and the same time want to see their business soar to new levels, there is an excellent best seller by Jim Collins called "Good to Great".

The author begins this book with a startling and counterintuitive claim: "Good is the enemy of great."

Below is a quote from this book.

Disciplined People: "Who" Before "What".

...When it comes to getting started, good-to-great leaders understand three simple truths. First, if you begin with "who," you can more easily adapt to a fast-changing world. If people get on your bus because of where they think it's going, you'll be in trouble when you get 10 miles down the road and discover that you need to change direction because the world has changed. But if people board the bus principally because of all the other great people on the bus, you'll be much faster and smarter in responding to changing conditions. Second, if you have the right people on your bus, you don't need to worry about motivating them. The right people are self-motivated: Nothing beats being a part of a team that is expected to produce great results.. And third, if you have the wrong people on the bus, nothing else matters. You may be headed in the right direction, but you still won't achieve greatness. …

Webslave,

It was a tough decision and, as you mentioned before, one of the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” sort. When someone is questioned in a thread they should have the right to voice their opinion, no doubt about that. A while ago you asked for opinions on the topic at hand. Those opinions were expressed in a poll, and for a while, you went along with them. Now you decide to go against your decision, and that of the majority. And that’s OK, it’s your site and you can do as you please. But in MHO, asking for people’s input and then doing the opposite sets a precedent for the future. Several times you have requested opinions on different topics in order to make more informed decisions. You have manifested in several occasions your displeasure with the lack of participation and “votes” on those polls. Your present decision will more than likely reinforce that attitude. If the opinions requested seem to bear little or no weight, why express them at all? Furthermore, it is possible that your current decision might result in a self-imposed banning of individuals that otherwise could have been a valuable asset to your site.


Kindly, :)

[Neil Gubitz]

someone who actually KNOWS what I've been going through these last three years!!.... Tim, I couldn't have said it better myself.... and I THANK YOU for saying it, and actually understanding it!
I don't know how many times in those three years, that I have said.... "I hope this never happens to you", type of thing.... if you think it's been fun, you are seriously mistaken.... to be accused of doing everything that the herp world calls despicable and underhanded (robbing my own store, stealing money from the BOI people, lieing to save my own ass, being in cahoots with the person that DID steal their money, etc., etc., etc.), was just too much for me to take at times, and I lashed out (WRONG, I KNOW!).... but I DID!.... being asked accusatory question after question by Lawson, and then having all my "friends" on the BOI thinking they were TRUE questions, to start harping on me for answers I just didn't have.... it was like a Chinese Water Torture, sooner or later, you go crazy (and I DID).... the last "email" I sent was (for me) the last straw, and it got me (rightfully) banned.... but, I took it like a man and never complained.... even when that PI Report came out blaming me again, when it was Lawson and Angie as the main witnesses.... FINALLY, after THREE YEARS the TRUTH has come out.... I have been (in my mind) TOTALLY vindicated of ANY wrongdoing in this whole mess.... and then with Rich having the decency to un-ban me so I could speak for myself, was a great load off my mind....
One thing you should understand, however.... I haven't changed a bit, in all the months I was banned, I was STILL helping people behind the scenes in personal emails from my own computer and not from this site.... I AGREE, I made a HUGE mistake by sending Rozann those sick animals, I KNOW IT and YOU KNOW IT.... I'm NOT trying to make excuses for it, IT WAS WRONG, but, as you said, I made it right to HER satisfaction, and, to me, that's what counts....
Now, it has been PROVEN that Lawson was behind THIS WHOLE THING.... I wouldn't be surprized to find out that it was HIM that somehow STOLE your money, he stole everything else, why not that.... HE is the one who proclaimed to be Thornton and called my father, HE is the one who (allegedly) burglarized EVERY place that was hit over the last four years (and when the State's Attorney finally signs off on those crimes, we might be able to find out the WHOLE truth).... thanks to Susin and Julie, the REAL truth is coming out by the bucketfull.... even BEFORE susin posted on page 10, Lawson was STILL trying to blame me for all this.... how the worm turned now, huh??
I will continue to help as many people as I can in the herp world to make it a nicer place, and I will continue to sell the highest quality animals I can find.... NEVER AGAIN will I let what happened to Rozann EVER happen again.... you've got my WORD on that!!.... I made a terrible mistake and I have paid for it greatly!.... I chalk it up to a GREAT lesson learned....
Now, there will still be some people that will want nothing to do with me, and I can appreciate their feelings, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.... but I will NEVER bring myself to their level by arguing with them or even responding to their posts.... as I said before, I am going to be a much kinder and gentler Neil Gubitz.... I have learned my lessons WELL.... ALL I ask is the time to prove that I am STILL the same Neil Gubitz I was when the BOI first showed it's face around here.... no more attacking, no more yelling, and no more juvenile attitudes.... just PLAIN AND SIMPLE HELP if I can give it....
I've said it before, but, I think it bears saying again.... I REALLY DO APOLOGIZE FOR MY PAST REACTIONS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, I just hope you can all NOW understand where my head was at....
How bout we ALL just put this behind us and get the REAL BAD GUY (Lawson) OUT OF THIS BUSINESS FOR GOOD.... I am definitely going to do my part.... You have NO IDEA how much I want to make this one big happy family again, all coming together for the GOOD of this business which I will be in for a VERY LONG TIME....
Thanks for listening....
Neil

[WebSlave]

Alvaro,

Matter of fact, I did run a poll exactly about this circumstance:

Poll on banning (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28681)

Not exactly a mandate from the masses now is it?

And this is pretty much the norm for any poll I have done on or about this site. The percentage of participation is so small that it is really a negligible portion of the total registered users of this site. Even knowing that, I STILL solicit opinions.

The reason I set up a poll is because I am in the mode of considering what is best, and hope that some input may help me come to the best decision. Sometimes it can be the thoughts from a minority position that carry more weight than what the majority of those who bothered to vote will profess.

I do not believe that the majority is always right. Particularly when the majority voting is such a small minority of the total possible votes. If I had 6,000 people vote, and 5,000 of them felt a certain way, why yes, that would clearly show me the path to take. But when only 20 vote, even if all 20 vote a certain way, it is just as clearly evident that the other 5,980 people don't care either way.

And yes, I do expect someone to say that they can't find the poll if it is not here on the BOI. Well, maybe that is indicative of a problem as well. If you only come onto this site to go to the BOI looking for car wrecks (as someone put it), then maybe you are not the best person to have any influence in this site. If that is what 5,980 people want out of this site, then it is just as clear that anything I do that does not infringe on the car wreck viewing is not any of their concern.

I expect this site to gain new members and lose old members all of the time. As interests change, people will go on their way to something else of more interest to them. It is but a click of the mouse to get here, and a click of the mouse to leave. That is the way it is on the internet, and I fully understand and accept it.

So if some people don't like my decisions, then they are welcome to leave at any time. Because I certainly am not going to make my site something I am not happy with just to please them.

[Stardust]

Alvaro,
I am not sure making the statement that Webslave is going against the majority is accurate or even fair. I do not believe that to state the word majority even comes close to majority. There are what approx 5000 people on this site now? How many voted? I am not even sure I did or even saw it.
I think everything Webslave had said is accurate. He is the one that has to listen to everything and bare the burden of this site.
Also, just because one asking for input or opinions does not mean they have to go with it, it helps to structure decisions in the persons mind, it does not make up their choice for them.
I fully understand what Webslave had said.
I was looking at it in terms a person being not only a non moving target but a bound one at that.

[Stardust]

Had I known you were writing too, I would have just stayed quiet LOL
So I will just stand at understanding your stance and totally agreeable to it.

[Stardust]

I have been very busy of late and pre-occupied so I did not vote, didn't even see it as a matter of fact. I have voted on some. Had I had to to be looking and did see it I would not have said any of the three, but stated more of a "time out" so to speak. IMO there has to be rules and there has to be consequences. I think a "time out" would be good as it would give people time to think, with no access at all, zip, for like, say, two weeks. Or one thru four weeks depending on the severity of the rules. With that being said and with out full banning perhaps the points should be less than tweny five. Perhaps ten.
Just throwing out my opinion and ideas.

[JungleHabitats]

Might i suggest something , i noticed a response to the poll on banning was they didnt know it was there . Being IMO the BOI is the most viewed forum on this site.Might i suggest that future polls be stickyed to the BOI and in any way to be viewd when someone clicks on "NewPosts" tabs. I know i for one use mainly that function when viewing the boards ... as i want to see what has been posted since the last 1/2 hr i was here . I think if Polls that pertain to how you want to address the way the site goes and to get the most feed back from the members would to post them in the BOI .I understand you frustration in posting polls to only get les then 1-2% of the popular opinion in them.I think you wouldget more participation in them if it wassomething that was continually seen ever time someone hits "New Posts" then you would more then likely feel as people really apprciate the time you put forth into even starting a poll for there opinions.
Respectfully Alan

[JungleHabitats]

i like the cooling off period idea

would there be a way to do something like this ?

10 points - 10 day ban from posting 1st offense(read only)
20 points - 20 day ban from posting 2nd offense(read only)
30 points - 30 day ban from posting 3rd offense(site ban)
40 points - banned indefinately by webslave (total ban)

gave it set up with a "3 strikes " your out rules but at the same time you would have the grace period for them to think about getting out of hand next time.


but if it could be done this was to make it easy on you not to forget about there bans have it set so that you can just check a box and that it would possibly be on a timer like you tell it 10 days ,20 days etc?
i dont know i just woke up from a short over needed rest lol so if this is garbage talk im sorry lol

[The BoidSmith]

Webslave,

Matter of fact, I did run a poll exactly about this circumstance:

I know. I was one of the 25 that voted.

Poll on banning

Not exactly a mandate from the masses now is it?

My point exactly. In MHO there will be more likely less votes in the future.

I do not believe that the majority is always right.

You are right, but it's a "defect" of democracy if you will. That's why in certain countries voting is not a right but mandatory.

And yes, I do expect someone to say that they can't find the poll if it is not here on the BOI. Well, maybe that is indicative of a problem as well. If you only come onto this site to go to the BOI looking for car wrecks (as someone put it), then maybe you are not the best person to have any influence in this site. If that is what 5,980 people want out of this site, then it is just as clear that anything I do that does not infringe on the car wreck viewing is not any of their concern

I agree, and I would have also liked to see more than those meager 25 votes.

I expect this site to gain new members and lose old members all of the time.

It's a fact of life.

So if some people don't like my decisions, then they are welcome to leave at any time. Because I certainly am not going to make my site something I am not happy with just to please them.

Absolutely.

Best regards. :)

[Stardust]

That would be great except perhaps the definite banning, then it is back to what it is now.
The reason why I say the point system should be lowered is, the same reason why I do not do the count system with my kids. If I do it, they have up to the count of ten to hurry up and do what they can in that amount of time. But I give them a time out from their favorate thing, it drives them crazy, then they relax and think about it. And just in case, LOL, I am NOT calling anyone kids here, but kids are what I deal with on a daily basis sooooo that is the easiest way for ME to put it into understanding terms.

[WebSlave]

If it is all the same to you all, how about moving the discussion concerning banning over to the the poll thread in the feedback forum where it belongs. Although it is somewhat on topic here, it is drifting more and more away from it with every post.

Thanks.

[Stardust]

Neil, thank you for posting that publicly. I would not have asked you to, as my daughter and I consider it over, done and in the past. Not to mention the Rainbows you sent me are just beautiful.
Some on here may think I am a fool or being silly. That is fine with me. I do and say in my life what is best for me and what I believe to be the right path. I have also found many on this board that do not fault me for just being me. This is me.
I really enjoy fauna. All the ups and downs, everything.
Webslave, keep up the good work, and even though I have complained at times as well, I know it is all part of the site and that you are trying to make it the best AND fairest site you can. That is all one can ask for, Thank you.

[robin d.]

alan,
webslave summer it up pretty much why he doesnt post the poll on the boi and personally i gotta agree with him there.......


And yes, I do expect someone to say that they can't find the poll if it is not here on the BOI. Well, maybe that is indicative of a problem as well. If you only come onto this site to go to the BOI looking for car wrecks (as someone put it), then maybe you are not the best person to have any influence in this site. If that is what 5,980 people want out of this site, then it is just as clear that anything I do that does not infringe on the car wreck viewing is not any of their concern.

if i person wants to know whats doing on and whats new they can simply click on the view new threads link on the front page. anything new including webslaves polls or questions will come up... its not like clicking a button is hard.
if others arent interested in this, so be it but if you(not you just the word you in general) dont like what he is doing yet never voted or replied to his questions or added imput you really have no room to bitch.
i see voting for politicians the same way, if i vote and the politician or law doesnt get voted in, i have every reason to bitch now if i didnt vote and i dont like what that person is doing... i have no room to bitch because i never put my imput in the first time around... and its the tough cookies kinda thing...


hopefully this makes sense.. i a off to work

[The BoidSmith]

Rozann,

No problem. I do enjoy your posts and more than welcome your comments. How's "spotty" doing?

Back on track. My comment was meant to be "general" and not pointed at Neil. As a matter of fact Adam was in a similar situation sometime ago. A representative poll at this point in time, would more than likely favored Neil's come back, particulalrly in the light of the recent findings.

Regards :)

[Stardust]

As per Webslaves request I have have taken my portion of the banning topic over to the proper place that he had posted a link to.
Alvaro, He is just fine:) Getting held daily and is oh so gentle. I think he is about ready for a nice winters nap. Is that his name? I will stick to it. And yes, I am a schmuck that names ALL my animals.

[CheriS]

As some of you know, I left posting here much over being sick over the attacks on Neil and the cheering section that rallied around it with no direct knowledge of anything.

PI reports, let me tell you something, I worked for the state attorney's office, most of them can be throw in the trash can as soon as released. I have too often seen how they are manipulated by the investigators who at times are involved in criminal activities themselves or personal agendas. One investigator had so many men put in jail..... until we started matching up reports and seeing the same things in them!

Neil....... for those that do not know him personally, I want to clarify somethings...... Axe and I have been to his home when he was not expecting anyone, on VERY short notice (about an hour), we have seen his animals there, hundreds of them and you know what, not a unpleasant smell in the house or an animal I would hesitate to bring into my home.

He allowed us to open every bin and see every animals he had, the worst I can say is some newpapers were starting to turn yellow from age and one dragon's bowl was dirty, but then I just cleaned mine at noon and it's dirty now at 3 pm!

I have known Neil for over 3 years now, never has he been anything but factual and respectful towards me... and he had NOTHING to gain from trying to impress me. I have never been a buyer from him, he has never profited off me or likely too. I have never found him to be anything but polite and truthful to me and an open book to inspect anything we wanted to. I even checked his books, well organized and logs kept, each animal in, where from and when it arrived and were it was sent when sold.

Sorry, I will always beleive my own eyes over any PI report or post from others just playing rah rah games, I got out of high school many years ago, maybe a few others need to move on also.

[ScottsReptiles]

I like the point system.. if you can't be adult enough to disagree with someone in a proper manner.. then you do not deserve to be treated like an adult.

I think someone mentioned a 3 strikes and you are out system.. don't we already do that... what is it.. 25 points and you are out?

[Stardust]

Glad you posted Cheri, as I respect your opinion. Thank you.

[brucestephenson]

I say we should do it just like on the most respected and popular and real program on network television:
Every Friday night webslave comes out of the bushes in his loincloth and a funny hat and we vote another punk off the BOI.

[Julie Moore]

Now I know this is ‘slightly’ off topic, but it does have to do with Lawson and his deceitful behavior. From my previous post I had mentioned about Lawson getting into my e-mail addresses and locking me out of them. About an hour ago I had something very disturbing brought to my attention in regards to what Dave was e-mailing to people when he still had access to those email accounts. I was just told that Lawson has been emailing/telling people that I had a baby by him. Can you say “phsycho”?! That is in absolutely no way shape or form even remotely true!!! It has been my understanding that there were many many e-mails that got sent out – even to people I have never even talked to, much less even met. So to make me feel better about that having happened and just for the record – if you received any e-mail from any of the following e-mail addresses back in June-August 2002 – they weren’t actually from *ME* – julieann1979@yahoo.com, n2reptiles79@yahoo.com, or biloxi_ms_girl@excite.com. I only got ahold of one of the emails that were going around and it was just awful. Well anywhoo - thanks for reading this. . .

[Adam Block]

Neil....... for those that do not know him personally

Very well said Cheri, one of my biggest issue with the BOI has always been the looky-loooos commenting. People that know nothing about either party, have never met or even spoken to them on the phone but still have all these assumptions.

The internet is very trick and human nature compels us to stick up for ourselfs when people are saying untrue things. Saying untrue things or making false assumptions is fairly easy to do when all you're basing things on is written word.

It like Jeff Miller in the Bob Clark thread. People are ready to kill the girl over knowing Jeff but he's a pretty nice guy. I know many people in Phoenix that know him and he's done more for and been nicer to them then I even would and I go way out of my way to help people. I mean, I don't know anything about the deal with Bob or do I want to get into that but my point is to convict somebody for even knowing another person is just a clear sign of how people work in the BOI

[Python Dreams]

It's weird how some people relate their experience to remarks about "penis size" and "high school".. Would this be useful information or slight attacks? We here about rah rah sections against Neil, then with every good post we have 3 or 4 more congratulating a person for posting something good. Why are you all so special that that is o.k., but when someone thinks that Neil is a slime, liar, cheat or anyother thing, and come out and say it they are just awful... Why do people have to incert their 2 cents time and time again. A couple posts in a thread should get your point across. We dont need a cheering section for anyone with a similar attitude, and if you want to cheer about the good, dont be a hypocrite if someone cheers about the bad... In fact, with Cheri's post, it would seem that Neil is an angel and the PI report is the only thing that people have against him... He probably only sends out top notch animals in perfect condition... He would never send out a dead snake or Uro, or even feed a large rabbit the night before he shipped a Burm.. He would never berate someone for things then shortly thereafter apologize for doing the same.... I've been reading the BOI for a long time and I've seen him berate people, lie, send out sick animals, and just about anytime something went wrong it would take pages before Neil would do "the right thing".. That doesn't even begin to go into what people may have heard behind the scenes.. I would say he started what many people have referred to as "the clique" by berating people, that probably kept others from posting. Also I don't think that referring to someones viewpoint as "silly" is such a bad thing, just very surprising to me after what you have been through... And very naive if you think this is an isolated experience...
Thanks, Tom Baker

[Neil Gubitz]

Sorry, Tom.... I'm not going to stoop to that level anymore.... no more berating, no more name calling, no more sending out snakes that just ate, no more sending out sick animals, no more arguing, no more saying your "opinion" is wrong.... but, there isn't a person on Earth who has not done something in their past that they haven't had to apologize for.... everyone has had to say I'm sorry for something at one point in their lives.... and my mistakes happened over a year ago.... if you're the type of man that can't (or won't) accept a sincere apology from someone, well, that just says a lot about you.... not me.... even Ritchie is giving me the benefit of the doubt (which he doesn't have to do) and is going to see for himself where I go from here.... and I thank him for that!....
I've gotten a lot of private emails over the last day or two acknowledging the fact of what I've been put through over the last three years and they're actually happy to see me back.... if you're not one of them, that's your prerogative....
This will be the last you hear from me on this subject, I've apologized publicly to everyone I've hurt verbally, I've made good on the bad animals I sent out (the one's I know about, anyway), that's all a person can do.... either accept it and move on, or not....
Neil

[Neil Gubitz]

I just got this "wonderful" email from one of my best friends on this site....

---------------------------

it was far less than a year ago

Yo gubitz,

It was not a year ago that you sent that uro to Rozann. Perhaps you should go and correct your post since you have turned over all these leaves and are NO LONGER LYING.

I figured I'd try it in private and give you that chance you're asking for. You and I both know I'm right on this one. So why don't you stoop on down to my level and actually tell the truth.

Wes
---------------------------

I guess my memory is off again.... the fact is, no matter when it was, it has been made right....

I hope that makes you happy, now....

Neil

[Wilomn]

No, best buddy, the fact IS that in the same post where you claim to no longer be your old self, the unpleasant one who sold sick and dying animals, you LIED again.

I didn't see any change, which is why I pm'd you to let you know that your "faulty memory" had ONCE AGAIN let you down.

Wes Pollock

[CheriS]

Tom,

Since you put my name in that post, I can only think that it was addressed to me..... you know, opinions are like (insert rear part of anatomy here) everyone has one, some are larger than other and blow more hot air.

You says so much more than I did and add to it so well, perhaps I should just email you in the future and let you post for me?

That doesn't even begin to go into what people may have heard behind the scenes.. that's the point I was making about high school...... I left high school and playing those games a long time ago. I meant, I trust my own eyes rather than someone typing on a screen 4000 miles away relating something they read on a screen also by others what we don't know the whole story to, then jumping on the bandwagon and branding them.

If you buy into that (which for months here, others did and were beating someone else up over it,) I know a 400 lb guy that is real good at telling others he is a blonde haired, blue eyed 115 lb female, that is looking for a good time online. In chat channels we call them "posers" and the people that follow them gullible.

Neil was charged, found guilty and prosecuted by people here on a subject with no facts but a PI report and others with even less a clue, that he did something so terrible and fraudulent. That had to have put him through hell for months, and that in itself can drive someone to be desperate.......Being falsely accused and branded for something is horrible for anyone, harming their business over it is disgusting...... and gee.... he did not do it. Now..... who looks silly? When that mud did not stick, let's start harping on other things and name calling, as we just can't let go and admit we were fooled and owe him an apology for that. As I said, everyone has one and is entitled to it, but don't get your hormone levels in a knot over it differing from you and what you so wanted it to be.

I never said Neil was perfect, I related my *known* knowledge of him and what we looked at and saw with our own eyes from a short notice visit to his home that he had no idea we were going to pull. I also related my experiences with PI & PI reports, they are mostly opinions, and faulty... period.... and I think working for the state for many years in the fraud department as an investigator and testifying in court regarding them qualifies me as knowledgeable on that subject, the judges seems to think so.

Perhaps you are more qualified reading a monitor in California than me sitting in his home, viewing books, records and animal's conditions.....or face to face contact with him over 3 years, I will leave that for others to decide.

My questions still are, what is YOUR personal experiences with him? If you don't have any......... LET IT GO, be a man, not a parrot. Stand on your own feet, not rah rah others that are in the same ship with you with too many oars in the water on one side. If you have one, tell it in the proper form, thats what is the good about the BOI is..... and the bad is the name calling and bashing from others with NO personal knowledge....... only what they read

my 2 cents for only the 2nd and I hope the last in this thread.. no, my guarantee it's the last, this foolishness is not worth the time and effort, I have constructive things to do that amount to something. This and my prior post remain and say what I needed to say

[WebSlave]

Neil was charged, found guilty and prosecuted by people here on a subject with no facts but a PI report and others with even less a clue, that he did something so terrible and fraudulent.


Cheri - I'm going to have to disagree with you here. For one thing, the PI report did not become public until long after public opinion mostly turned against Neil Gubitz. I purposely waited an entire year after I received the PI report before getting it posted on here in it's entirety, and up until I read it HERE, I never laid eyes on the original document. So certainly, no one else here read it prior to that time either. It was sent to someone still sealed in the original envelope. The contents of that document had no bearing whatsoever on public opinion formed prior to the reading of it here on the BOI. Certainly there was some speculation, but I believe it had only minimal bearing on public opinion.

What DID have a bearing, was Neil's attitude in the postings he made here on the BOI. THAT is what most people judged Neil by. It was quite enough for many people to form an opinion and those facts were all they needed in order to feel the way they did. As I have said several times over the years, the BOI is a great place for people to wrap a rope around their neck and jump off a cliff. It is also a good place for people to catch themselves in time before jumping and start mending their ways, so maybe, just maybe, Neil will start unwrapping the rope. Time will tell, I guess.

People's opinions DO count here and are actively solicited. People post here because they WANT other people's opinions, in most cases. It is not a requirement to actually have done business with someone in order to form an opinion. But people will study those "facts" presented, and form their own opinions about what is the real problem of the issue at hand. And it certainly does not have to agree with the person originally starting the thread.

And as we have readily seen, someone saying someone else is a bad guy is NOT automatically the good guy. Even "facts" are subject to opinion as to their validity and the credibility of the person stating them. And those opinions can certainly be based on either the gullibility or the skepticism of the person reading the "facts" presented.

I did not name this the "Board of Inquiry" by accident.

[Python Dreams]

Cheri,
My whole post was not directed at you, but I have no problem addressing your issues. First off, I don't think that I posted once in the threads about Neil breaking into his own store (might have, but really dont think that I did), not to mention that I really had no idea who actually did it due to the characters involved and their tendency to forget and lie and then be uncovered ina lie, and on and on.... My hormone levels are just fine since I will say it slowly for you... MY OPINION IS NOT BASED ON THE BREAK INS OR THE PI REPORT.... I also think that you are the one being gullible here... I am basing this my opinion off threads that I have read here publicly, not off what is considered to be popular opinion, and generally only comment when I see it is one sided or were losing sight of an individuals real character.... I have not jumped on any bandwagon. I am a man and I do stand on my own two feet... You will not hear of me doing any bad deals and will do whatever possible to make a customer happy... I know things go wrong, but it is how you handle them that makes the difference.... My personal experience ranges from reading here on the BOI to hearing a friends stories about dealings... This is not "high schoolish", it is just not my business, and if this person does not want to post it, then so be it, out of respect I will not either... Does not mean that it did not happen... But since I believe you said that you have never done business with Neil, what about you? Are you knowledgeable about his business dealings due to the fact that you've seen his collection? Just skim over all the bad dealings he had here, since you've seen his house on short notice..... You talk about the bad things being name calling and harping about people you dont know about..... You don't know me.... I haven't posted enough here for you to actually have any knowledge of me... No bad dealings, only one good dealing that was posted... Yet you know enought to name call or claim these things: My opinion is like an #$% hole!, I'm jumping on a bandwagon!, I'm gullible!, My hormone levels are in a knot!, I'm a parrot!, I'm ina boat with too many oars on one side!, I'm a part of foolishness. No name calling or harping right? All that I know about you is that Neil is basically a great business man that should be trusted, and that you associate with a 400 pound man that lies and says he's a 115 pound young women for internet sex... Maybe you should ask me before you post....
Neil,
I really don't hold anything peronally against you and it may be hard to see that. I just have no problem reminding people of recent past due to the fact that "history repeats itself".. I said earlier that I thought you were intelligent, witty, and probably very friendly. I really do hope we only hear of good business dealing from here on out. It really seems like the only logical way to run a business.
Thanks, Tom Baker

[Adam Block]

"history repeats itself"

That's a very foolish way to think.

The only thing we have to base the future on is the past I'll agree but by no means is that the same statement.

At 16 I took my 1975 Caprice out with 3 friends lying on the roof, after hitting 100 mph I then sat on the door out an open window and drove with one hand. I can tell you right now for $100,000 that won't happen again.

It's people that say things like that who never help bring change about because they're so set in their ways they don't think others can grow, mature and change.

People do things wrong, make mistakes. I relish mine as they're the only gauge I have to how much I've learned in life. If you don't think you're in control of your own life and are too weak to bring about change don't pass that flawed thinking on to other people.

Most of the people on the BOI never pick up a phone and get to know the person on the other end. I don't know if it's out of fear that they might like them.....about, they don't want to deal with the guilt of the judgements they pass with such ease. Or what the reason. No matter, my feeling, has been from the start, is if you don't know the person, have never dealt with them and have made no effort to find out who they really are. My feeling then is you're weak and need to prey on the weaker to make yourself feel like you have some self worth.

The BOI shocked me and gave me my first taste of what people are really about. It taught me A LOT about human nature and myself. If I don't know the person in the thread, VERY Rarely will I even read it as I can't give any real feedback. The people that have to post in, follow up on and give their $.02 in every little bad guy post are no better then those people we all hate, you know the ones that watch soaps all day, tell their friends how so and so is cheating, drive slow past any car crash with the head turned and always need to give their life meaning by, demeaning you.

Ah, what the heck am I talking about? Screw it, don't even read this, it's a bunch of garbage and while I think it's true I would delete it if I hadn't typed so much.

[John Apple]

Neils past and present we all know now
it's his future we don't know...soooooo keep turning Neil
and good luck.
your a pretty smart guy ,so all you gotta do is earn the respect you once had.
I am willing to give you some respect for the future [but work at earning it]
In this reptile business what I am finding is that unity works, such as all the fine folks that came to the caucus in Ann Arbor to help with the reptile laws that the board was trying to pass. And it helped all the fine folks in Ann Arbor that have reptiles.


good luck Neil

[Neil Gubitz]

Thanks, John.... Without Lawson around, that will be a piece of cake!!.... You have no idea how relieved I am that the TRUTH has finally come out for the world to see!....

Stay tuned.... more TRUTH will be coming out later today, too!

Neil

[brucestephenson]

January 2004 is D-Day for Hillsborough County (Tampa Bay), Florida where Neil and may other breeders and dealers reside. The County Commission Meeting of January, 2004. It will affect or infect the rest of Florida.

[brucestephenson]

Sorry, that's (many) other breeders and dealers.

[Neil Gubitz]

Bruce.... I'll be there, and I hope that everyone else will be, too!.... If this ban goes through, it will eventually affect every residential area in every State in the Union!.... Don't let this happen, make arrangements to BE THERE and let YOUR voice be heard!

Neil

[brucestephenson]

Here is a very easy e-mail form to send your comments to the Hillsborough County Commissioners:
http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/mail/email.html

[The BoidSmith]

Adam,

Tom just used a popular quote to make a point accross. A person can agree or disagree with his point. The important thing though is to understand people view things differently, and respect their opinions.

That's a very foolish way to think.

This statement speaks about yourself and not about Tom at all. It is you that think those are foolish thoughts.

It's people that say things like that who never help bring change about because they're so set in their ways they don't think others can grow, mature and change.

When change happens (and believe me when the time comes you will know it) you don't need to tell the world it has. They already know because they have learned about it from your actions. When people change they don't need to tell others they "have seen the light", they are different, etc. The day one changes there is no need to criticize the opinions of those that don't agree with you.

If you don't think you're in control of your own life and are too weak to bring about change don't pass that flawed thinking on to other people.

To be in control of your own life you need to read through Tom's post and try to understand what he meant. If you are upset by what he wrote and feel the need to criticize him then you are not in control. By saying Tom has "foolish thoughts", "he is weak to bring about change", and he has "flawed thinking" you are not in reality talking about him at all. What you are saying is "I have wise thoughts", "I am strong to bring about change", "my thinking is not flawed".

Most of the people on the BOI never pick up a phone and get to know the person on the other end.

No matter, my feeling, has been from the start, is if you don't know the person, have never dealt with them and have made no effort to find out who they really are. My feeling then is you're weak and need to prey on the weaker to make yourself feel like you have some self worth.

Maybe by talking with Tom on the phone your opinion about his thoughts would have differed. :)

Most all of us change. But it's not something that will happen from one day to the next. When it happens, you most likely will not feel the need to post it in the BOI for everyone to read about it.

Kindly.

[Neil Gubitz]

Well.... I've done everything I can to attempt amends.... I know some of you are skeptical and I understand why.... But, why is it that everyone is always ready to see the bad, rather than even a little bit of good??.... Even with irrevocable evidence of exoneration??.... This childish arguing only makes everyone, including myself, look like unintelligent people.... I think it's best that I discontinue making any further futile attempts when it comes to some members of the BOI.... I would ask, however, that you give me the rope that you claim I have.... If I do hang myself, you can always come back on here and say, "I told you so"!.... Fair enough??

Neil

[Stardust]

OH gosh, I can hardly swallow anything an "I told you so" person says. But Neil, I am sure that rope is there and as we have talked about "knots" I am sure you know all to well that playing with rope hurts, so be careful how you use it.
Alvaro, I totally agree that when a person changes, there is no need for bragging, it shows out on its own and anyone with and open mind with be able to see that. But, as far as Tom goes, he did say what I was saying was silly and it came out of the blue, after I thought the subject was over.
I would write to Tom and explain some things but, hey, one never knows what will be posted or not.
I am a believer in actions speak louder than words. Words do not carry a lot of weight with me, that being said, I do not believe Toms words had actions in it. IE..... reading the whole post..... doing the homework before he writes. Not wise to just take up where you do not have all the facts of what people have written.
As far as Adam, this is the first time that I have said anything about him but I think he is showing that he can be productive here, he is showing he can post in what he believes to be helping, he is able to be truthful to himself on his stance on the topic at hand with it agrees with others or not, that is something I can respect. With regards to Neil and Adam, both have said they were wrong. It takes strength and guts to do that and in my eyes it is the first step in change. To the other who bar that path to change I hold less respect for.

[Stardust]

Since, I rarely re-read my posts, a definite flaw on my side. Geesh.
I forgot to say that in regards to turning over leaves, it makes it very hard indeed to turn those leaves over when SOME people are stepping on them.

[John Apple]

Determination can move any leaf no matter how big the rock or foot.:smash:

keep hammering away

[KNOBTAIL]

would be to "go about your business", dont give anyone an opportunity to use you as a whipping boy, or say, I told you so. This thread was originally about the exploits of Dave Lawson. Fortunately for you, some good has traveled your way. Your back at the BOI, and hopefully, you will stay.

I personally think if all the difficulties that you may have caused for yourself were put on a scale with the good things you have done, you may be surprised to find that you outshine a hell of lot of others that have posted here. JERRY TRESSER

[Python Dreams]

Adam,
History does repeat itself... In general it is considered to be a truth and is something that I learned in History class. Does that mean a person cannot change? No!!! I can understand why it bothers you that I said this because you are a person that really needs the change.. All I see from you is self destructive behavior followed up by a speal about how you changed. I know this is how you gauge what you personally learned, but alot or people can just learn and they dont have to screw people over, lie, manipulate or any of the other things that you have admitted too. Personally I have plenty of things that I can change in my life that I feel would make me a better person.. But none of them have ever stemmed from lies or ripping off another person in any way.... I don't need that type of growth, most decent people learn that at a young age, and I hope that the ones that don't can CHANGE, but the prisons are over full with changed people...
Rozann,
I do think it is silly that you basically will give Neil a good guy post... I didn't think silly was that harsh of a word, but anyone that took my family or purposely sent my daughter 2 sick animals would be written off in my book... That way their is no possibility that a rookie might stumble across my post leading him to a possible awful purchase... I also think you should read my post more carefully because I stated I have knowledge of other bad dealings, but would never state them here out of respect for the person that told me. I have also recieved private messages before regarding threads and it was very civil and I never mentioned a thing about it. Actions are much louder than words, and believe me if I had a past like Adam or Neil, you would be hearing about my actions.. I also want to know what homework I did not do pertaining to this thread or whatever incident you are talking about. I do think it's strange to see how everyone wants to congratulate said "bad guy" the moment he says he is going to change.... The more bad this guy has done, the less people will believe it.... I find it funny you have more respect for someone that ripped off your family along with countless others bad deals, or anyone that has shown complete instability in business and personally here on the boi, then you would have respect for someone that has never ripped anyone off and can control his temper and posts, and basically is trying to keep people from getting ripped off.. I guess we all have differing viewpoints on what warrants respect....
I think my viewpoint is not exactly the most popular here, but it is my viewpoint. Alvaro read it with an open mind and I thank him for responding inmy defence. I will probably get this picked apart and then have to respond, but we can leave it at what it is... A viewpoint.. My opinion cannot block the change that is so apparently coming, in fact it should fuel an inner fire to keep Neil or Adam trying as hard as they can to change and prove me or whoever wrong.... It is impossible to block somebodies path if they want to change....
Thanks, Tom Baker

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I wonder where....Mr. Lawson has now run off to. I think this thread should be permanantly posted at the top of the BOI.

[Neil Gubitz]

Rob.... with every leaf in the 100 acre forest I have to turn over, I'm also looking under every rock to see which one he slithered under....
Of course, I'm not stupid.... I'm also carrying anti-venom with me just in case I DO find him....

Neil

[Adam Block]

dont have to screw people over, lie, manipulate or any of the other things that you have admitted too.

if I had a past like Adam or Neil

Here's what I find odd, I saw your remark as a “quote”, my assumption by that was you were saying something others or at least somebody else felt. I meant my statements as broad and not directed at you, as I didn't know you alone were the one with that view.

This is where it really get odd to me. Your above quotes are indicative of how little you or most of the people on the BOI know me.

The worst thing I've ever done or had posted about me that's for 100% fact on the BOI is that I shipped slow and late. I’m saying 100% fact because I don’t see a need to start another silly thread about the things people think I did.

I have NEVER screwed anybody over!

I have a past of not agreeing with conventional thought. And for this you deduce the above quotes?

Facts:

1) Every customer I sold to in 2002 got something extra!

2) While I couldn't always make people 100% happy I always fixed any issue that came up were I could control the outcome. Even when I owed Bill G. money that I didn’t have I got it taken care of. I have ALWAYS and will always own up to any wrong doing.

3) I have spent more time, effort and money making sure peoples snake purchase was a good one then 90% of breeders. In many cases educating parents on a first snake for their child or just helping local kids find reptiles.

4) Every year I produced animals I posted an ad on KS to give children free snakes to help get them interested when money was an issue. Many times getting in trouble and having my ad pulled.

5) I offer more free information on my site to help people then 75% of breeders.

6) I offered a longer guarantee on the animals I sold THEN ANYBODY IN THE REPTILE BUSINESS! Not because I ripped people off but because I produced great animals.


The people in the BOI think they have a right to know each and every thing about another person’s life. Fact of the matter is that you don't. You don't have a right to know if people have a business partner, where they get their money, who they live with or what their sexual orientation is. If you ask and people don't tell you you assume things, if they tell you something you don't like you say they lie. When the fact is it’s not your business and they have no obligation to tell you. Just because they don’t tell you, or don’t give you the correct information on irrelevant facts by no means makes them a liar!

You can all say what you like, but the above quotes to me are just a tell tale sign of the ignorance I see here each and every day. The assumptions we all make and the unseen damage we’re all responsible for no matter if our intentions are good or not.

Are you taking that personal? If so maybe you want to ask yourself why you're offended by a statement that doesn't include your name. The only reason I can see is you know you act that way and have found yourself guilty, if that’s the case, fix it don’t blame me.

I'm on the BOI because I help people here. You don't like me? Fine, I'm not trying to make friends or win some high school popularity contest. My whole life I've done what I felt was right with or without the support of anybody else.

I’m not going away. You don’t have to think I’m a good guy but I do good here. Unlike most of you I go to the other forums and help people. Ritchie Luna, a man I have little love for also goes to the other forums and helps people, so does Seamus and many of the other people you have issues with. Above all else I respect that fact that they want to help. If you’re not helping you’re hurting and I have no use for you.

As one last note about me, ask yourself something. If I’m such a bad guy, and I’m fine with you thinking anything you want about me. But if I am, why is it that so many of the well respected people in the herp community are friends with me?

Makes some calls, if not to me to some of my friends:

Call Shannon Hiatt, ask him how that $400 pair of snakes I gave him are doing.

Call Ronda Van Winkle, ask her what her thoughts are.

Call Chad Fuchs, ask him why he’s stayed friends with a guy like me since he was 16.

Call Jim Kane, remind him he still owes me that lunch.

Call Walt Deptula, see what he says about me.

Call Kim Caldwell, she in her 50s and very well respect, why be a friend of mine.

Call Rich Cunningham, ask him why he spend so many hours BSing with me.

Call Don Gallagher and see why he’s been a good friend for so long.

What sucks is I bet many of you are friends with or respect those people. See despite this post I really don’t care what people think so as long as your decision is an educated one I’ll accept it.

I just don’t want people putting me in this bad guy group when I’ve never ripped a customer of mine off. I’m one of the few people that will come right out and tell you I got myself in over my head towards the end, I felt that quality was going to slip and I did the responsible thing and stopped producing animals or selling supplies.

I owe Jason S. (Classic Dum’s) a big sorry for not doing what I said I would and I owe Ken a big sorry for acting like a child. There are a few others I owe a sorry to for shipping late but I can’t remember who.

Point is, you don’t know me.

[Dragondad]

I have been leaving this alone, some do to being out of town and not turning on the laptop, but mostly am amazed that after all of this people cant just leave it alone.

As Cheri stated she has has personal experience with Neil, Rozann has had personal experience with Neil. Those opinions mean more to me than anyone who hears of something that he did to someone elses cousins. There is a reason the courts dont like hearsay and that is it isnt first hand.

To paraphrase John Apple and to quote someone who I believe of a little higher authority "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" now it may not be that you have done something to a customer, but everyone of us hasnt been perfect in life. What we choose to do with that experience is what makes us better or worse as the case may be. Neil has stated he made mistakes, he has made good on the deal at least to Rozann. To me he is making the steps or leaps to show he has changed. How far he goes and what happens is up to him but I feel we should see how he does before we get ready to throw away the key.

Tom I would put my faith in my personal experience with Neil, over your info from a friend who you respect. He has made good by my and I havent seen any bad deals come up so guess maybe he is changing. And if I choose to disagree with those who continue to ride him but have never done business with him I feel I have a reason to do so. Unlike a lot of you I have dealt with him and at this point can say I am happy with the way it has ended. Tough road to get here but well worth the trip.

[WebSlave]

I would like to remind everyone to take a look at the topic line of this thread. Unless you have something directly related to the two names mentioned in that topic line, please post it somewhere else where it may be more relevant.

Thanks.

[karl ramsdell]

when i first started reading the BOI a while ago i was reading just for entertainment value. i was really new with the reptile thing and i can remember reading Neil's posts, they really stood out from the rest and i always thought i would like to meet a character like him. i thought he would be a nice person as well as a honest person to do business with, and i was right. me and neil email each other all the time and i consider him a good friend now. since im new i always have questions and he always is there to help me out even if im not buying anything from him. this is the type of person that i like to spend my money with. i think neil brings something special to the BOI. i missed reading his posts while he was away. karl ramsdell

[Adam Block]

Webslave, I gave that some hard thought, tell me if I'm incorrect but.

I was posted on topic relating to this thread and a quote in it about the person in the topic line.

They posted and made comments about me.

Seemed very silly to start a new thread about me and that person, seemed really out of place to put it in a thread where that person isn't mentioned and wouldn't look.

I could be wrong, if so please tell me where I should have put it but I felt the best spot to respond to a post in this thread was in fact still in this thread even if mildly off topic for a post or two.

Sometimes that comes up and my feeling is that the threads have to go with the flow. There are few threads that can ave 20-50 posting in them and not have or include comments about some of the people posting.

[Python Dreams]

Webslave,
I apologize if I have posted in this thread that was out of line... I told my viewpoint originally and have only defended against personal statements in my direction.
DragonDad,
If you read my post the only reason that what I heard was brought up was to show that in private my conversations are just that. I wasn't asking anyone to listen to that situation and judge from it because I gave no info whatsoever. That doesn't change what I personally know. I also don't think that I am riding Neil just defending my one initial post. And in no way shape or form do I claim to be perfect.
Adam,
You are one strange guy. If your referring to me as "they" you will see that the only reason we're even mentioned in the same post is because you had a problem with "history repeats itself" and began to tell me my way of thinking is foolish and so on... I'm not sure what the worst thing you've done or posted, but I know you have been banned from this site and at least one other... You claim that you have changed while being caught in lies and basically staging a big fiasco that has to take place if you will ever post the truth about a personal attack you started on a well respected business.... You send out naked pics of your wife... I also really don't care to know about your life, nor have I ever asked any personal information of you... You also claim that I have issues with Rithcie, Seamus, and some other people? I was not aware of this..... Maybe they have a problem with me, but I doubt it... I bet it is more along the lines of misinformation you like to let out.... Maybe you are not referring to me, but that post starts out with quotes from my post and you use the word you in your post...
I will not post anymore off topic posts in this thread, so don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond to any statements made in my direction.. :-) Sorry Webslave and the best of luck to everybody in positive business dealings!
Thanks,
Tom Baker

[Adam Block]

Tom you seem to be taking a lot of my statements to heart when they aren't directed at you so I'm sorry if there's a misunderstanding.


and began to tell me my way of thinking is foolish and so on...

I wasn't attacking you. If you think the above is so whole heartly true then yes but I assumed you meant it as a guideline so my attack was more at the statement then you. Sorry if I didn't get that accross well.

You claim that you have changed

LOL, Well I'm still a prick, not liked by most, rude and just all together very to the point. Never really claimed to "change", sorry if people thought that meant I was going to be all friendly and kind while they attack me. I basicly meant I grew up and no longer thought I could outwit everybody in here. You know, like I did away with my big ego and learned a lession.

basically staging a big fiasco that has to take place if you will ever post the truth about a personal attack you started on a well respected business

Yeah I'll agree, NERD saying yes let's rehash this old worn out drama that none of the people involved care about anymore is a pretty big "fiasco", I mean, that's almost insane.

How silly for me to have enough respect for the other party to say I want him to give his input on this issue being brough up again. See it how you will, I'm not saying a word about it without Kevin saying he want's to deal with it to. He has more to loose then me, it's a respect issue Tom, not really fair for me to open my mouth if he'd rather leave things like they are.

Tom, you're making assumptions! You don't know me, don't say things about me, I'm only pointing out that people who assume as much as you should keep your mouth shut if you don't know anything first hand.

Parrots hear something and then say what they hear. Don't be a parrot Tom.

[WebSlave]

It is just not possible for threads to stay on topic in the BOI. That much has been proven time and time again. I have learned to live with that for the most part.

What I am asking you all to do, is to try to limit it as much as possible so that the FOCUS of the thread doesn't become something entirely different from the original topic. This site is intended to be a resource for people to find information in. Off topic messages embedded deep within a thread will probably never be found again, and defeat this purpose.

Think of it this way: If you want to write something and have people be able to find your words 2 years from now, what is the best manner in which to post your message for those future readers? Many people will do keyword searches strictly on the topic lines, as this is the most efficient and quickest way to do a search in a large message board system. Off topic posts will NEVER be found in such a situation.

For instance, if someone wanted to find my views on off topic posting, what to you think the chances are that this message will ever be found by them?

See what I mean?

[Adam Block]

Sorry, got emotional! Won't happen again............tonight.

You're correct, makes searching the site hard and all.

[ms_terese]

Now, where did Dave Lawson run off to? I'm asking again Dave:

You are saying that the document that has been posted here with a case # of 03-061536, the one that is initialed by Detective Masci and Sgt. Clamon, the one that indicates you are charged with other crimes (by the check mark at the bottom of the page), the one that says you admitted to committing the offense of Susin Tippi's burglary.......you are saying that document is false?

Please elaborate. Was the entire document forged? Did you refuse to sign the confession after agreeing that you would, therefore making the document null and void? What is your explanation for that document, Dave?

[Darin Chappell]

"Neil, you and Seamus are the two people that had what it took to be pro active and call me. "

Uh, Adam, I believe you and I spoke on the phone for quite a long while once about a year ago over the garbage that was then happening in relation to you here on the BOI. I remember it distinctly because I was on my cell phone outside, and it was C-C-C-C-COLD!!


Anyway, back to the actual topic . . .

All of this back and forth has really gone nowhere in relation to Neil and his banning/unbanning. It's done.

There are a few things for all of us to consider however:

Those who are against Neil's presence have their reasons (which go well beyond the PI report), but those who are in favor of his presence have their reasons as well (Neil has helped a LOT of people over the years, I am certain, and he IS a personable fellow, when he wants to be).

It is somewhat hypocritical for one side to chastize the other side for simply being on "the other side" (Neil's supporters are not inherently evil crooks, and his detractors are not simply "out to get him"), and continuing to viewing each other in these ways does no good for anyone involved.

I am willing to let Neil prove the veracity of his words concerning his most recent make-over. However, as was pointed out by someone else, this is not the first time Neil has come back saying that everything is clear to him, and he is ready to be a productive citizen in our little community here. Some of you may not have realized that we HAVE heard all of this before, and THAT is why some tend to be a little gunshy when it comes to Neil and his appologies.

As far as the break-ins at his store are concerned, I have no qualms in saying that I am glad Neil did not have anything to do with them. I truly am. However, being exonerated in one part does not equal being exonerated in the whole. Neil says he is turning over a new leaf, and I hope he does/has. However, for those who are his most ardent supporters, please do not think that Neil has developed his standing in the court of public opinion merely from that PI report. Neil did ask the WebSlave to go into cahoots with him to lie to all of us so as to pacify the original contributors to the Burglary Fund. Thankfully, Rich's ethics were of more sturdy stuff than to go along with him.

Neil, I am sorry to have brought that up again. I only did so because, some are acting as though there was no reason for you to be banned except the PI report. That was not true at all, and I think we need to be completely above board on all of this. I do not want to see anyone bashing you needlessly, and I have been in private communication with some to try and keep that from happening. If you are truly going to get it right this time, I want you to do so (though I, admittedly, still have some doubts). Even so, I believe it is equally unfair to those who are still suspicious of your intentions to make them appear to be irrational zealots, relying only on a report we all now know to have been faulty, at best. That was never the case for most people here, and I honestly doubt it factors very heavily today, either.

[Stardust]

This is a post purely to put my thoughts on this down and hopefully lay it to rest.

I do not consider myself as a "Neil supporter". I spoke what transpired between the transaction Neil and I had with the snake and the uro. I spoke of my anger at the time. In doing so I was able to release that anger, and I chalked it up to a learning experience. I had not communicated with Neil for a long while. It was him that sought me out for the sole purposes of making things right. At the time of this, there were no threads going on about him, he had NOTHING to gain by doing this. We then talked, I heard him out, I will not go into it, anger spent, time gone by, and a man trying to make good on something I would speculate, must have been bothering him. I accepted his offer to repay, in return I gave Upstate a chance. One good deed deserves another. I also posted that Neil made right by me.
I would have thought it would be over said and done, but when I go to all threads on Neil and see someone reminding of the deal, I feel in fairness I should comply and post the outcome as well. It is the only fair thing to do. That should not put me in the backing of Neil. It is to me just following up with the WHOLE truth of the matter. And have since dealt with him again, as well as talking WITH him at length. I have asked point blank questions, probably some that are none of my business, he has answered.
A supporter no, someone who is getting to know him and putting some trust out there in him, yes. I will continue to do.
As far as the break ins. I never did take too much stock in the PI report. He did ask Rich to lie, true. We have all made our share of mistakes. I kind of looked at him at the time as a caged animal caught in a corner of lies (lies of others)and came out fighting, that included perhaps some mistakes on his part. He did what I am trying not to do now, he fought without looking, and he did the second wrong that does not make a right.
I for one, will push forward. I do not wish to harp on what has been done and can not change. I plan on talking with him, listening, and watching.
Neil, good luck turning over those leaves, if you need a little help along the way do not hesitate to call. :)

[KNOBTAIL]

your sentiments, and I am also sure that if he had the opportunity to turn back that clock, the outcome would have been different.

Their are however, members who are not as kind as you, who will not accept any explanation or are totally unforgiving. I am sure if these crusaders could, they would give Neil a "scarlet letter" so that others would know that he has done wrong and should never be forgiven ..............or forgotton. I think this has been an excellent learning lesson for all parties concerned as to how things can get out of hand. Although I really dont know Neil, I know he will be more careful in his dealings. Thank you for your post, it was most rewarding. JERRY TRESSER

[Darin Chappell]

All I am saying is that this wound will never heal over if one side or the other is always picking the scab, folks. Neither side has a corner on the "good intentions/kindness" market, and we are all going to have to just agree to disagree on this.

Neil will do what he will do, and the decisions he makes will tell us all we need to know about his intentions one way or the other. It's time to just sit back and let things progress, folks.



:toiletcla

[Ken Foose]

I guess I will stick my nose in this for just a moment. I don't know Neil, and most likely never will. I have met Dave, and I'm not impressed. I personaly have no doubt that the crimes he is accused of are true, especially the sexual parts, as I have seen him do the same to another in public in person. And Dave, being drunk is no excuse. As for Neil: The break ins, who knows? The poor quality service and/or animals, that has been documented. The lies, that shows charactor, and I will never do business with him just for that reason. It is nothing personal, it's business. However, the thing that sticks in my craw the most, if there is to be one thing, is the email that was supposed to be sent to Terry Lilly and was accidently sent to someone else. I don't have the email, nor a link, perhaps someone else would post that if you're interested. It was rude, and I found it personaly insulting not just to me, but to every member of this site. And, as indicated by Neil in the email, this entire site is populated with a bunch of fools and idiots, why would Neil want so badly to get back on here in the first place? I for one don't like being talked about badly behind my back, especially by one guy that has a proven track record of dishonesty, and another who was well on his way to become just like him. That's it, butting out now.

[Neil Gubitz]

I would like to explain something, if you'll let me.... I don't expect anyone to blindly support for any reason.... with respect to the "email" I sent to Rich, asking him to "bend the truth".... at that particular time, *I* was being accused of stealing that money by Lawson.... I KNOW I didn't steal anything from anybody (myself or the BOI people), that email (if I remember correctly, and a lot of you know how my memory is) was to save a lot of people a lot of grief.... I didn't want the hassle of having to explain the absence of that money, because I had no proof at all of where it went, I didn't want the BOI to think that their money was spent in error (which it obviously was).... I KNOW what was in my heart and it certainly wasn't to decieve anyone for the wrong reason.... If any of you can POSSIBLY imagine what I was going through at that time, I was an emotional wreck.... I was lashing out at everything and everybody, because I knew none of it was true, but, again, I had no proof.... if any of you can find that email (and I have privately emailed Darin Chapell asking him to do just that).... if you would read it in the LIGHT YOU SEE NOW, maybe that will explain my reasoning for that email more clearly.... when Rich and I talked it over, we BOTH decided it wasn't right to do and we BOTH thought it was a bad idea.... Rich posted it when he, too, thought I had stolen the money (which wasn't true, but, he didn't know that at the time).... I hold NO hard feelings for what any of you thought about me at the time.... you were being swindled by the BEST (Lawson).... but, I certainly hope you can empathize with what I had to put up with for three years.... that email was not meant to be malicious, it was meant to curtail the bad feelings for me and to ease the stress of many of you who donated to that cause.... I had the best of intentions in mind....

Neil

[screamdreams]

This is simply pathetic...

[Casey Hulse]

"bend the truth"....
I think this is starting to get a little stinky Neil!
Some of us have good memories, but perhaps we are just too sick of all the drama to post our personal experience with you Neil (again).
It is called lying! Give it a rest.

[Adam Block]

Darin, I'm an idiot. Nobody is going to come in here and say anything different. What you said just backs it up.

What happend is I knew I was moving to SC and for fear of maybe turning into a hillbilly myself I put the whole thing out of my mind! Now I'm here, I'm not a redneck or hillbilly yet so I'm starting to remember more of these things.

Sorry you are correct, we did speak! Now here's the key question. Did I lie when I said Neil and Seamus were the only two or did I just forget:) I guess it depends who ya ask.. LOL

[Wilomn]

adam, in answer to your question above about whether you lied or simply forgot here's my opinion.

It comes down to what is known of your character. Do you warrant the benifit of the doubt or do you not? If you have not been caught lying or selling animals that shouldn't be sold or sticking up for scumbags or lying or trying to mislead people that question you or lying or putting a spin on someone elses story then, and only then, if none of these things have occured, do you rate the benifit of the doubt.

If you have a questionable character, if you have been caught lying and sidestepping issues, if you have been caught selling animals that should never have been sold or lying, if you can't answer a question after having it asked of you several times and/or you've been caught lying, then you do not rate the benifit of the doubt and if such is the case, that in fact you do not rate that benifit, then I for one would lean towards the lie being told once again.

It's character and history. Take a little step into the future with me. It's sixteen years from now and your daughter has just been asked to the prom. She's excited and really wants to go with the guy that asked her. HOWEVER, he was arrested for assault on his last girlfriend, not charged but only because the girl didn't want to go to court. She was afraid of him. He's suspected of a couple of minor thefts in the area as well, no proof but it sure sounds like it's him. You KNOW he lied about hitting the last girlfriend as she's the daughter of a guy you've worked with for years. You're pretty sure he did the theft he was accused of but you can't prove it. It's funny though how a week before the store was broken into his car had bald tires and a week after he had brand new ones and he has no job of his own. Oh well, coincidences happen. This is the same guy that has said he's sorry for getting out of hand with your friends daughter and that he will never let it happen again. He told you this in confidence because he "really likes your daughter and thinks she's very special" but, asked you not to tell anyone else as he doesn't want to open that can of worms again. He has also said that if she, the friends daughter, really wanted to, she could still press charges and he would tell the whold truth in court when they were both there and under oath. It seems he doesn't really think it was his fault.

Do you let your daughter go to the prom with this guy? Do you give him the benifit of the doubt?

If it were me and he admited to hitting my friends daughter....... well let's just say he wouldn't be making it to that years prom.

But hey, if you want to trust him, you go right ahead. After all, he SAID it would never happen again.

Oh, by the way, did I mention that he was also a suspect in the beating of another young lady from a neighboring school? Rumor has it that they dated for about two weeks, had an argument in front of some friends in which he said she'd be sorry and that was it. A couple of his buddies alibied him for that one but, people don't quite believe he's innocent. Somethings just not quite right about it.

Does your pride and joy go out with him?

Wes Pollock

[Wilomn]

In the above post I did not mean you in particular adam. The you I was referring to was the general you that could be anyone not the particular you that is only adam. I was not singling you out for that part.

That's not quite as clear as I meant it so I hope it's understandable, this was not meant to be a dig at you at all.

Wes Pollock

[Adam Block]

Well Wes, I seem to fit into some of the above. I didn't take it personal, I know the things there I have or haven't done.

Darin, with that said, I guess I've been caught in yet another lie when I said Neil and Seamus were the only two that called me. I seem to have a real issue with lying and honestly just can't seem to help myself.

You must be asking, why would he lie about such a silly thing? Only God knows why people like me are alive. We can't be trusted so what good are we? I only hope time will tell me why I'm allowed to live.

Do you let your daughter go to the prom with this guy? Do you give him the benifit of the doubt?

Wes, do you know how many guns I own? I think the real question here is going to be what kid is stupid enough to ask my 16 year old daughter to the prom! You know the drill, comes over to pick her up, finds me cleaning the meanest looking gun he's ever seen in his life. Then somehow ends up having both the oddest and scariest conversation he's ever had with a dates father.

Do I seem shy to you? Do I come off like a guy that doesn't speak his mind? LOL He'll have little doubt in his mind that if he smacks my daughter I'll be taking him on his next date.

I was 16, I know what the girls who's parents told them not to go out with a guy (okay well yeah...me) did. No way in hell I'm making that mistake!

[Stardust]

Hey Wes,
Thought you weren't going to post here unless Neil called you out??? Was that a lie?????? OMG lolololol

[Wilomn]

It is possible that I'm wrong but, I think you totally missed the point of my post.

Such is life.

Good luck.

Wes Pollock

[Wilomn]

Actually Rozann, if you actually READ my post I did not say that. Reread it and you'll see that I have not lied.

Wes Pollock

[Darin Chappell]

Adam,

I understand that I am perfectly forgetable, and I wasn't calling you a liar (I'm actually fairly clear about that when I level such a charge). However, I froze my posterior off talking to you, and I wanted credit where it was definitely due!

:bluegrab:

[Wilomn]

Looks like we need to add adams name to the title of this thread. While I was writing earlier, in response to adam's question, I totally forgot that I was in this thread on neil and dave. I do, on occasion, get rather caught up in what I'm writing.

Sometimes it's really hard to tell which thread I'm in with these guys. The whole peas in a pod thing is a good analogy, there are very few differences in the big picture.

Wes Pollock

[Adam Block]

Wes, I got what you were saying. You were pretty clear and I doubt many didn't understand you.

I however do not come off too well in written word and most who have talked to me I'm sure will agree! What can I do? I'm a known liar and I know it clap your hands. Oh wait that clap your hands thing just seemed to fit in, didn't mean it.

Anyway, I'll keep treking, need to be a little less emotional so I'm just trying to be myself and not come off as something I'm not. I use to try to "act smart", now I just say what I think and if I'm wrong well, heck I won't look any worse! :flamethr:

Darin, I moved from Wisconsin to avoid things like that. Only to boil to death outside my house talking to you while you were freezing! From this day forward you will always get credit. I WILL NEVER lie about talking to you again!

[Roger Jolly]

So Neil is back, eh?

Whatever happened to Angie, Neil? Remember how you said you would trust her with your life? Was she working along with Lawson as the inside person? You know it did take an inside person to disable the security system. That means only you or her. Course, the rift between you and Lawson sure seems like a partnership that went big time sour somewhere. If Angie could really finger someone, maybe she figured out she was better off out of reach. Not entirely out of reach, but far enough to make it difficult from someone to do a 'just in case'.

Is Lawson going to any shows in the near future? Maybe people should take their digicams and see if any of that stuff can be IDd by a rightful owner.

I used to wonder why you people spend so much time here. I am beginning to understand. They don't make TV shows this good any more.

[Julie Moore]

There is an arrest warrant (#20913285) out for David B. Lawson that was issued 10/14/03. See for yourself - http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/ - click on "Inquiries Online" then scroll down to "Warrant Inquiry" and type in "Lawson,David" in the name search field.

[brucestephenson]

I hate to tell the rest of you out there this..........but............the
rumor mill at the local reptile place has Lawson heading out for greener pastures...........maybe...............an area with a large concentration of herpers...............oh say.................the Northeast U.S. ...................or maybe...............Oklahoma City.
Good luck to the rest of you!



Remember, this is just a rumor and quite possibly is false.

[JungleHabitats]

anything on the warrant page under his name
Lawson , David
w
m
01/11/64

[DThomas]

It's there. It's for violating his probation on the stalking charge.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

If you enter the name as Julie said to and then when it brings up the list of David Lawson's you click on the blue I to the far left on his name which has the 64 DOB. It is for VOP and Stalking (Violation of Probation and Stalking)

[JungleHabitats]

Poor dave .... im sure his momma is sorry she had such a waste of humanity ...

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Susin,

Have you heard anything new on your situation? Please keep us posted on the status and any new information.

[Julie Moore]

Indeed Susin - Please keep us up to date.

Rob,
I can tell you that Lawson was arrested AGAIN 11/24/03 for violation of probabtion. For whatever reason they actaully released him AGAIN also. Suprisingly he actually has an attorney listed on that arrest report (Robert Follis). Now if this Robert Follis is an actual attorney has yet to be seen. BTW - is there anyone out there that can tell me what a surety bond is? :confused: That seems to be how Lawson keeps repeatedly getting back out of jail.