JeffB apparently doesn't like me having KINGSNAKES.COM...

[WebSlave]

http://www.serpenco.com/kingsnakes/complaint/complaint001.jpg
http://www.serpenco.com/kingsnakes/complaint/complaint002.jpg
http://www.serpenco.com/kingsnakes/complaint/complaint003.jpg
http://www.serpenco.com/kingsnakes/complaint/complaint004.jpg
http://www.serpenco.com/kingsnakes/complaint/complaint005.jpg

[Estillianreptiles]

Rich, you know he is God its a wonder you haven't been struck by lightning as of yet lol.

[Copperheadman]

Then maybe he should put a bid on it!!:) ...His attorney's name is Barringer also??Hmm...that sounds kinda fishy.Maybe it's time to send him a foil hat!!!:D

[gmherps]

are you selling site to Jeff for? Sounds like more trouble than what's worth. JMHO

[Adam Block]

Well, kingsnake is the weakest type of logo/company name you can have from a copyright/lawsuit standpoint. If you were trying to sell fujis.com the case would be over in a heartbeat and you would loose. But kingsnakes is a group of snakes, not a very strong copyright.

I will say this, make sure it's not forwarded to fauna as that's where he has some footing for a case. The confusing similar thing doesn't work in your favor there. You have no issue if people go to kingsnakes.com and see it's a spoof site or nothing having to do with snakes but he might have some grounds with the fact that you do the exact same things here.

This prick owns adamblock.com and sure it's his kids name and all but I wanted to make sure he had some rights to it.

Here's another case he lost:

http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/154531.htm

I just happend to be going through stuff on his company to see who he was and why he had it.

This guy has also had more suits then anybody you can think of but I don't think he's ever lost one:

http://www.sucks500.com/

I did a lot of looking into the domains I had and after my lawyer told me there was nothing he could do I got them and wished he would have sent me the letter he just sent you:)

Lucky SOB!!!

[WebSlave]

I guess since that domain name KINGSNAKES.COM was simply a referral link to my FAUNACLASSIFIEDS.COM site, I removed that link, in deference to JeffB's wishes, and posted the above complaint there instead. I am assuming that is what he would prefer me to do.

JeffB could have purchased that domain name at the same time he got kingsnake.com. He also could have made an offer to John Organiscak for that name. He also could have offered to buy it from me. But I guess he would rather take this route and try to have his attorney get it for free.

The following is an open letter to JeffB:

Sorry, JeffB, but "kingsnakes" is a very common generic name plainly and commonly in use in the herp world. It is the common name of a genus of colubrid snakes found in North America.

You have no legal right to that name. You are not selling any unique product or service that any of dozens of other websites in the herp world are also offering, either as paid services or for free. Just about ANY domain name related to the herp industry is going to take a person to a website selling something, offering some service, or just inviting them to visit for free. You don't OWN all of the herp related traffic on the internet.

Or are you trying to prove that you actually are a monopoly in this business? Are you saying that you own a person's visitation rights even if they type in a domain name other than yours?

Interesting perspective, I must say.

I got that domain name as a joke, for the chuckle factor it would give me, and it still is, as a matter of fact. But I also did it to allow a friend to get out of a heavy financial debt he owed me, that I knew would be very burdensome to get out from underneath. He had that domain name for a long time, and you NEVER made any attempt to do anything about it. So why NOW is it so all fired important to you?

Isn't this just a personal issue Jeff? It has nothing to do with your business concern at all. Are you saying that fumble fingered users that go to KINGSNAKES.COM instead of your site are damaging to your business? Fumble fingered users that don't know how to set a bookmark, no less.

You stuck your foot in the dog pile back when you banned FAUNACLASSIFIEDS from your site and then when you banned SERPENCO and all my other sites. And you just don't have the sense to just wipe the crap off of your shoes and get on with your life. IMHO.

Now the domain name is up for sale, Jeff, so you can see how important it is to me. I let a friend out of a jam and got a few laughs out of it in the process. This final step was a trap laid for you.

I figured you would do something like this, and you walked right into it. You see, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. My getting that domain name has served it's purpose. It made you show your true colors.

[DThomas]

Hate to say it Rich but, I TOLD YOU SO!! lol :laugh: :laugh:

[dwedeking]

wow, that's childish and absolutely will not last when they do the review. Curious if all reptile name domains are now his as well??

[WebSlave]

Yeah, I know Dennis. JeffB apparently does not play chess.

[DThomas]

Originally posted by WebSlave
Yeah, I know Dennis. JeffB apparently does not play chess.

Yea, that would take a bit of intelligence on his part. It never ceases to amaze me how many times someone can show their a$$ in public and never learn. I really hope you spank him good on this one.

[JungleHabitats]

I think we need to start a fund for all the REAL Kingsnakes on this earth for a legal defence, maybe we can hire the "Dream Team" to win a class action lawsuit that would make Jeff B have to pay damages to all kingsnakes now and in the future for reprisals. So i think that every reptile owner with a Kingsnake should sue Jeff for copyright violation of there common names.Hmm with that said i just might go buy me a kingsnake now and make a website for him :D

[colubridman88]

After a long conversation with my group of cali kings, we agree that Jeff has indeed violated copyright laws.
Jesse Smith

[Sasheena]

I typed in kingsnakes.com instead of kingsnake.com and got Fauna. Now, if i hadn't already KNOWN about Fauna, I would have thought "hey cool, another website about snakes", bookmarked it, then gone on to kingsnake. I mean, COME ON, they don't look ANYTHING alike.... Kingsnake.com looks like a junior version of Yahoo, and Fauna is my FAVORITE color: Green. I mean, Yahoo... Green.... Yahoo... Green.... No contest!

So JeffB's big complaint is that the MORONS of the universe must be protected.

Ah well, I look forward to hearing the outcome on this one.

Oh, and my Kingsnakes all agree, www.kingsnake.com AND www.kingsnakes.com belong to them. So fork it over Rich, Jeff...

:wavey:

[Larry67]

Ok so Coca Cola buys Pepsicolas.com and has it redirected back to Cocacola.com. Ummm thats not cool and IS not legal!

Sorry had it went to something else and not competing site it would be ok, but what has happened here is not ok and he did whats within his rights. Unpopular opinion here, but the truth.
It should have never happened.

Perfect example as to why he has a great case was from a prior post:

"I typed in kingsnakes.com instead of kingsnake.com and got Fauna".

I guess she didnt know how to book mark a site either?
Or maybe she has finger isses as described by the webslave.
Either way its a perfect example as to why it is not proper or legal. If you leave the forward on you will lose hands down.
Remove the forward and its yours to sell or keep. No one has a right to take it from you, but you have to use it appropriately and legally.


Larry Johnson

[Roger Jolly]

So let me see.

Jeffie is claiming that the knuckleheads of the internet world are going to type in k-i-n-g-s-n-a-k-e-s-.-c-o-m by accident and get thrown into a tizzy when they wind up on FaunaClassifieds.com. My word! They won't know what to do!! They will likely just go ahead and buy advertising here, or somehow believe they are actually at kingsnake.com and be none the wiser. How will they ever be able to figure out the difference, Jeffie? I mean these two sites are so similar looking that it probably would really take a rocket scientist to be able to figure out they went to the wrong website!

Just how many websites are there out there that have the word "snake" in them? How many websites are offering the same sort of services? How long was kingsnakes.com available after Jeffie got kingsnake.com and he never thought to get it? Do you really think you have an indisputable right to every website that even come close to being similar to yours?

Say, didn't Webslave say that he got that domain name in trade for an outstanding debt? Jeffie, be careful you don't get your arse in a sling by causing financial damages here. I think this would be easily proven in court that your personal vendetta has caused financial damages. All it would take is for someone to bid up that auction on the name and those damages could be substantial. An actual documented and verifiable financial loss could be proven. Far, far from what you would have on your side of the table. All you have is one clown (Steve Schindler) that said he typed in the name wrong and had his head explode over it.

Jeffie, did you even politely ask Webslave to remove the link before going storming to your nepotistic attorney? Did you slam your fist on the desk and demand he DO SOMETHING??? Is he afraid to tell you that you are being a jerk and losing his job as well???

You better put your brain in gear, honey, before that temper, ego, and napoleon complex gets you into big trouble.

[Roger Jolly]

Ah, HI Larry. First time here?

What exactly is the product that these "competing" sites are selling? The only thing that anyone pays money for at this site are the banner ads. And they are mostly a donation anyway by supporters of the site. Go ahead, ask any of them about it. This site doesn't "sell" anything, and is not even really a commercial site at all. From what I can see, this site was never even expected to make any money at all for Webslave, and is mostly a public service. All he is trying to do is to get it to break even for him so it is not a drain on his wallet. So there is no incentive, other than a "few belly laughs" considered in that domain name. My belief is that just the chuckles alone of someone clicking on kingsnakes.com and getting a laugh out of being taken to faunaclassifieds.com was the goal of the link jump. Most people know of both sites already and would find the humor in such a thing.

Perhaps the people leaving Jeffies site from getting tired of the bs over there is finally beginning to sting. It was not this site that made that happen. But I am sure that Jeffie wishes they had no other place to go to.

[HerpVenue]

1. Kingsnakes.com ws bought by someone else in 1998.
2. Why he chose to do something about it now is beyond me.
3. Rich did not acquire the name until 2003
4. Steve has been a member here since 02-13-2002
5. Steve did not find this site because of the typo. He has known about this site way before Webslave got it.
6. I wonder if the whitehouse.gov can sue the owner of whitehouse.com ?
7. Rich has had that name for months.
8. Now Jeff is gonna sue because Rich is selling (auctioning) off the site name?


What gives?


I wonder if Redtailboas.com is going to sue Redtailboa.net
I wonder if Pythons.com is going to sue Python.com
Iwonder if I should buy boas.com or if the owner of boa.com might sue me.
I wonder if I can buy snake.com and snakes.com and sue myself.


My point? Dude move on with life.
Life is too short for all this bickering.
Death is only a heart beat away.
Go out there and do some good in the world.
Go and make your self a better person. (That is what I am trying to do)

[Larry67]

Sorry about the typos and mispelled wording.


Roger, you said the following:

"Jeffie is claiming that the knuckleheads of the internet world are going to type in k-i-n-g-s-n-a-k-e-s-.-c-o-m by accident "

Would this apply to Sasheena who did infact do this?
So in your own words your saying that she is a "Knucklehead"
Is this correct? Please advise me on this (and maybe her too).

Ritchie:

Jeff is not suing anyone.

Glad to see the redirect has now been corrected.
The site belongs to the webslave and anything he wants to do within the law he can/should do.

Not sure if this site turns a profit, but the profitability does not really matter. The forward to a competing site was not legal and had the webslave left it he would have lost his site and thats why the forward was removed.

[PAUL BOLLINGER]

Kingsnaked.com
Kingsnaking.com
Kingsnaker.com
Kingsnakelike.com
Kingsnake.net
Kingsnake.org
Kingsnaky.com

Does this mean that all of these names are out of the question?
What a little baby! Way to turn the screws Webslave! LOL.

[Larry67]

If Kingsnake.net was forwarded to a competing site and owned by that competing site (Profitable or not) then yes there would be an issue. There is also an ethical issue at hand.

Kingsnake.net for instance is not so there is no issue.

[W.Wedeking]

Ok so Coca Cola buys Pepsicolas.com and has it redirected back to Cocacola.com. Ummm thats not cool and IS not legal!

Actually, it is Legal. You can purchase any domain name you want and put anything on that website you want. It has been done time and time again and there isn't anything anyone else can do about it. That is why you register it and PAY FOR IT. It is space, and if Jeff didn't have the foresite to buy Kingsnakes.com or .net or .gov or .dumb@$$ he is SOL. His "Attorney" knows this, that is why it is in "arbitration" not a real court.
As a matter of fact, alot of people make a great deal of money registering domain names in the hopes that people will buy them. Names like PanAm, Herseys, and so on.
If Rich changed his site name to Kingsnakes.com, then it might be copyright infringement, but not the domain name. If Jeff let his domain name of Kingsnake.com expire, anyone of us could buy it and there wouldn't be a damn thing he could do about it....other than buy it at what ever the asking price was :flamethr:

[Adam Block]

There are:

cornsnake.com
cornsnakes.com

Rich, you ever think about sueing Don?

ratsnake.com
ratsnakes.com

Motleyboa.com
motleyboas.com

car.com
cars.com

loan.com
loans.com

auto.com
autos.com

vacation.com
vacations.com

ALL DOING THE SAME TYPE OF BUSINESS!!!


Jeff, really should have picked a stronger trademark then a snake name!

You're acting like a small child. Like always, not getting your way so acting up about it.


Come to think of it Rich. You have no reason at all not to have that link direct to fauna. It's a snake name not a business name!

If you have a name like a snake name and use it for a snake business it's a VERY WEAK copyright and you'd be hard pressed to win anything even if somebody used the EXACT SAME NAME!

If Jeff had a line of sunglasses called kingsnake and Rich had a site kingsnakes.com selling sunglasses Jeff would win.

As things sit, he just looks like an even bigger idiot!

[Adam Block]

Do any of you have any of the links to any of the lawsuits filled against Jeff?

I know when I was going through my thing with him I had a few people send me links to info on Jeff just wanted to know if that was still out there.

[Adam Block]

Just for those of you that doubt Jeff has a monopoly here is the most current link I could find about Kingsnake. Very interesting he has the market cornered on web traffic and now wants to take our domain names away from us!

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2000/12/prweb21121.htm

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2000/12/prweb20844.htm

[JungleHabitats]

We are a real guerilla web company :D

[WebSlave]

Well, as someone said to me in an email, this is GREAT publicity for the domain name at the ending few days of the auction.

The referral is gone, so I knocked those feet out from under someone.

I seriously doubt that THAT many people make a mistake in typing. People are NOW going to that domain name to see what is actually there. And probably will be for a long time to come.

I put a hit counter on the domain this afternnoon, and it has gotten 59 hits so far just from this publicity alone. Thanks for the publicity boost, Jeff!

I have been promising my wife a Chevy Silverado pickup truck for years now. Anything I get on that auction will be going towards my fulfilling that promise to her. So I am just trying to use a joke and an unusual turn of events, to make one good deed pay for another.

Is that such a bad thing?

And Jeff, all you have to do is to win the auction yourself and this all will be a moot point anyway. The auction ends at Wed Nov 26, 09:15 PM.

KingSnakes.com Auction (http://www.reptibid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=g_reptileproducts_other&item=1069899353)

BTW, my wife says that in lieu of a large screen monitor, if you will send her that truck she wants, she will post in your defense anytime you want her to! You know my phone number. Ask for Connie.

When she gets the truck, I will GIVE you that domain name. :laugh:

[Larry67]

I'll address the "snakes sites"

You said "ALL DOING THE SAME TYPE OF BUSINESS!!!"

cornsnake.com
cornsnakes.com

ratsnake.com
ratsnakes.com

motleyboa.com
motleyboas.com

After looking at the above sites you listed as examples I have to ask...Did you do any research before you posted. Im guessing you didnt unless my browser is screwed up becasue NONE are doing the same type of business. If they are in fact then my browser is malfunctioning.

With regards to the link...Not sure how that makes KS/Jeff looks bad, but ok if you say it does it must.

If you REALLY think the redirect was legal and Jeff would have lost why do you think the webslave took the redirect off so quickly?

Because it was not legal (sorry Wendy I do not think you are correct on the legality issue).

The current site with the Arbitration notice was a good idea.
People that like KS wont care to much and people who hate the site will love it. Either way its legal and belongs to the webslave.

Im guessing had Jeff simply asked politely it would have been changed and all this avoided. Maybe not, who knows.

[Ken Harbart]

A case that bears some relevance here is that of Diversified Mortgage, Inc v. World Financial Partners a/k/a Bill Trudelle.

http://www.arbforum.com/domains/decisions/118308.htm

[Larry67]

I have to disagree on the relevance issue.

Here is one excerpt from your Link:

"Complainant does not allege, and has not proven, that this is a registered or common law trademark"

From the arbitration notice:

Kingsnake did secure a common law trademark and they were registered/accepted with the us copyright office

This is one of many differences.


Not the best example maybe?

[Brian030]

Perhaps if his business was named "Kingsnake" (though probably not), and not "OnlineHobbyist.com", some correlation may be drawn.

Still, the name is a reference to a common word, and not a strong trademark. Since Fauna deals with Kingsnakes as much (as a percentage of total focus), if not more than Kingsnake.com, there's no standing to the notion that either party has any more right to the name than the other does. Possession is 9/10 of the law, though, lest any of you forget.

Brian Engleman

[Sasheena]

Larry says:
I guess she didnt know how to book mark a site either?
Or maybe she has finger isses as described by the webslave.

How nice. :)

I rarely use the mouse as I suffer from arthritis. Anything I can do with the keyboard is better than with a mouse. My home page is the BOI. When I go elsewhere I just type in the url. As I type about three times faster than using the mouse, I just type the links. Most the time I get it right. Occassionally I get it wrong. Even when I get it wrong, in the time it takes me to see my mistake and fix it I still get to the intended site faster than using the mouse.

Larry also says:
Would this apply to Sasheena who did infact do this?
So in your own words your saying that she is a "Knucklehead"
Is this correct? Please advise me on this (and maybe her too).

It doesn't take a knucklehead to type a wrong URL. It takes a KNUCKLEHEAD to mistake the poor yahoo-imitation Kingsnake.com for the delightfully GREEN faunaclassifieds.com. They don't look the same, silly.

I might accidentally type a bad link, but i know when I have the wrong link. I once had a christmas website I created (still exists too http://www.geocities.com/santakitten/), and at that time Geocities relied on unpaid volunteers to police their site and keep out the porn-scum. (I was one of those volunteers). To my dismay one day I was showing my website to some of my students, I typed sanakitten instead of santakitten, and the next thing I know my students are seeing XXX material. Now, did we BROWSE the site? Was I so completely bamboozled by the seemingly CORRECT URL that I browsed porn? Nope, not on your life. (Luckily I was a college student at the time, and my students were also college students.) The point is, if you couldn't tell the difference then someone might get confused, but the sites are totally different.


:dunce:

[JungleHabitats]

Someone stated that rich couldnt have the name kingsnakes.com redirecting to this site right?

so i just typed in "www.onlinehobbyist.com"

well so since Rich own the kingsnakes name could he not do as onlinehobbyiest did and list ALL of his sites on that page ?
serpenco.com
cornsnakes.com
faunaclassifieds.com
BOI.com
etc ?
im not adding the link but if anyone wants to look they know how to i think thats what you should do Rich ,, use Kingsnakes.com to list ALL of your sites that Jeff B Banned from his site and anyother sites he has banned aswell .Then i dont think you would be in vilation of anything , and would be doing the same thing they did

[W.Wedeking]

I don't believe the issue is the link.
I do believe that approximately 2 years ago, it was determined that not just anyone could register a Trade Marked name as a domain name. However that does not include variations of that name. For example, only Nordstroms could register the domain "Nordstroms", but any one could register the domain "Nerdstroms".
Common place names/words like car, boat, cat, tower etc, cannot be trademarked because they are common place. So Kingsnake is not eligible for trademark because it is a commplace name.
Even if it were trademarkable, it still would not apply to "KingsnakeS". And since Rich owns Kingsnakes.com he can put up anything on the site he wants to including (but not limited to) porno, political views, actual kingsnakes and yes an automatic link to any of the other sites he owns.
That whole competing site thing is ridiculous anyway. Kingsnake and Fauna attract two different types of people altogether. People on this site are way more business/industry oriented. Kingsnake is more the idealistic small/new hobbiest. I believe they are different enough that they are not competative.

[WebSlave]

I have taken the liberty of going to kingsnake.com and screen capturing SEVERAL instances on JeffB's own site where the generic term "kingsnakes" is used to refer to a genus of colubrids. Including one of his forum titles as well as a substantial number of instances of ads posted in his own colubrid classifieds.

I would paste them there, but I have this nagging feeling I would then get slapped with some sort of copyright infringement notice.

Speaking of which, how does this copyright infringement thingie work? If someone were to do screen captures from my site, even though at the bottom of every page it is PLAINLY posted All original material copyrighted © by Rich Zuchowski/FaunaClassifieds, and forwarded that onto a third party without MY permission, is that an infringement of MY copyright?

Just curious....

[Adam Block]

Common place names/words like car, boat, cat, tower etc, cannot be trademarked because they are common place. So Kingsnake is not eligible for trademark because it is a commplace name.

Correct, as I said provided you use "boat" as a name for a boat business. However if you have a line of headphones and the name of your company is "baot" it becomes a strong copyright.

Larry to address your issue I was saying:


car.com
cars.com

loan.com
loans.com

auto.com
autos.com

vacation.com
vacations.com

were ALL DOING THE SAME TYPE OF BUSINESS!!!

The snake sites were just there because they're out there, some have done the same type of business at one time.

Anyway, this is a dead issue. Rich can do as he likes with kingsnakes.com just as I can with kingsnakesucks.com and Jeff can with kingsnake.

[JungleHabitats]

Im not sure how much you have looked into copyright infringments if at all ( im sure you have to some extent)Copyright Infringement and Remedies (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#501)

[W.Wedeking]

Hmmmm, It is saying that you acted in "bad faith" with the intention of and have done harm to Jeffs business by "confusing" his customers.

They actually name a person who is registered both here on fauna and there on ks. Are they saying that this guy bought stuff here instead of there because of this link? maybe he advertised here instead of there? Or he bought something here, thinking he was there? Oh, maybe he spent more time reading here than there.....
I think his (as if he owns them) customers would have to be confused to begin with to not know the difference between this site and that one.

So, If I make a typo in a website address and endup on one of those really disgusting fetish sites, or some morbid dead body site, I can sue? The site I intended to go to can sue?

I think if I were you Rich, I would have my attorney handle it.

[Larry67]

Wendy, just to clarify:

Hypothetical-

Nordstroms owns Nordstrom.com
Macys buys Nordstroms.com and it redirects to Macys site

Now you believe this is legal?
Do you believe this is ethical?

Answer: NO

I also disagree on the competition issue...
Kingsnakes.com was redirected to a competing site that sells advertising has classifieds and forums (profitable or not).

Why do you think it was switched so quickly.
The goal Jeff/KS has been achieved by filing for arbitration because the redirect issue was resolved immediately.

He now has the option to what he wishes with the site.
There is no longer an issue pending as there is no resaon for KS to pursue arbitraton. Although a response from the webslave is recommended so that a default judgement is not issued.

As stated before, posting the notice on the site was a good idea.

[gmherps]

This all sounds like it could turn into a nasty, festering pimple. Not even worth the trouble!

[WebSlave]

I think if I were you Rich, I would have my attorney handle it.


Nah.... The people at ICANN are probably going to laugh their butts off over it. I'm sure they get this sort of thing all of the time.
But yeah, maybe I do need to look at the possibility of civil damages if this complaint appears to have been filed solely to damage my auction's outcome. The timing of this is rather unusual, I think, since I have had this domain name since early June, 2003. Why NOW?


Hmmmm, It is saying that you acted in "bad faith" with the intention of and have done harm to Jeffs business by "confusing" his customers.


No, not even close. I got the name because John O had some problems. They are all documented elsewhere, so I see no need to dredge that up again. It was a fair amount of money, but I really was not hurting for money, but I really didn't want to tell him to just forget it either. It was actually a shock to me when I realized that he had ownership of kingsnakes.com! I think it came to me when I was looking over the stats on my FaunaTopSites listing and I noticed his URL. This was a no brainer. It would let John off the hook, I could gracefully forgive the debt, and in the same fell swoop have that domain name in my stable.

Yes, I knew it would aggravate JeffB when he learned about it, but it was the OWNERSHIP part that I thought was hilarious, not anything I would actually do with it. Let's face it, my hands are full enough with the stuff I already have active and other plans in the works. So all I did was put it on my list of parked domains that have a referral to FaunaClassifieds.com. So kingsnakes.com was only one of 34 or so OTHER domain names that were set up as referrals, and it was nothing at all special about it. So there was absolutely NO intent of any harm, since I just didn't give it any other thought and that seemed a reasonable thing to do with the name while it was on the back burner.

Since ICANN is an arbitration group for issues like this, I thought that arbitration took place AFTER all else failed to reach a resolution. Never once was I approached by anyone in reference to what I was doing with that domain name. I'll have to read over the ICANN website again, but I suspect that JeffB might not even have legal standing for this issue to even reach arbitration. But in every instance I have had to contact ICANN, ice ages could come and go before they would get back to you. So I'm not expecting anything to happen anytime soon. Especially not before that domain name might not even be mine any longer and the entire issue of being accused of my "intent" with that site is completely moot. The domain name probably will no longer belong to me by then anyway. The intent of the new owner would be to do with that site as they pleased.

Of course, JeffB could contact the owner of ReptiBid, if they are on friendly terms, and ask him to yank that auction.... :laugh:

[WebSlave]

Why do you think it was switched so quickly.


Because this was the FIRST time anyone made any sort of issue over it. Besides the intended "belly laughs", that is.

When JeffB had an issue with John Stuarsky using an unflattering avatar in his profile, JeffB called me up and asked me to do something about. We had a nice chat and I agreed to talk to John about it. I email John and told him I thought it was causing more friction than I thought was appropriate, and I asked him to change it. Which he did.

When JeffB was having problems with the posts Adam Block was making and those websites Adam was talking about, if JeffB had asked me, I would have certainly talked to Adam about it and asked him if he would tone it all down considerably, just for the sake of keeping this entire community on a more friendly level. But no, JeffB called me up and DEMANDED that I delete the entire thread. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. And there was a good chance I would be involved in a lawsuit if I did not do what he wanted. And of course I refused. THAT is when this all went to hell.

But even so, if JeffB has called me up and asked me in a reasonable manner to change something about how I had the kingsnakes.com site set up, heck, I didn't care one way or the other. I had the domain name, and that was all that really mattered to me. But no, not a peep until I get that complaint form in the mail today.

I do think a test of reasonableness applies here. And I also believe that all of he cards are on the table for people to make their own determination about that.

[Larry67]

I do think if Jeff/KS made no attempt to resolve the issue prior to filing for arbitration, they took the wrong approach on this.
A formal/informal request to stop the redirect would have been the right way of doing things and im sure both of you could have come to a reasonable conclusion (or at least I hope).

Had you not been able to come to some sort of agreement that was satisfactory to the both of you, then yes filing for arbitration would have been the next step for them. Sounds like they may have jumped the gun.

I think the point is over now and you did the right thing.
Hope your wife enjoys her new car....Good luck with the auction!

[JungleHabitats]

Since Jeff has all these [bleep]hobbyiest.com names
Will i to be sent the same thing you got Rich if i were to file for a domain name with "hobbyiest.com in the domain name ?I wont post it here lol casue im seriously thinking of two of them to register as mine, And have one as a forum setup and the other as a redirect to my main website. Rich ill email you lol i trust you no offense to the others .

[WebSlave]

Heck, Alan, I'll answer you right here, even though it is off topic. I'm sure other people may have this in mind as well.

Personally, I would not want any name with "hobbyist" in it for exactly the reason that is evident in your post. MOST people on the planet are going to spell it incorrectly. Probably on the order of 9 out of 10 times. I normally spell fairly well, but I will bet I would spell it incorrectly more times than not typing it into the browser URL line.

My opinion, of course, but it is a big enough problem that I wouldn't even consider it myself.

[C. Reynolds]

Hey Rich, if it doesn't sell how would you like to keep the domain, and we partner up and start selling products with kingsnakes on them?

I am sure with all the publicity, we could push the proceeds to pay for both our alternative sites. :)

I have some concept art I would be willing to share with you that I have been planning to market since early spring, but haven't had the drive to pursue quite yet. (yes I am an artist, don't laugh)

email me. :)


-Christian Reynolds
www.fieldherpers.com
www.herpforums.com

[JungleHabitats]

lol webslave ya know i spelled it right in the look up on domains ... but i see your point .And i know it really doesnt look like it here . But i REALLLLLY done spell so bad on paper and in other PC related things. I think i just get my brain typing faster then my fingers and then get in such a hurry i dont proof read in forums , i guess its just i have got so use to "web etiquate" (sp) see what i mean .

[Max Peterson]

Careful! It is X-Rated (seriously):
www.sonofsnake.com/links.html

Cheers, Max

"Just how close do you want it to be, to be a locale breeding?
Careful now - We wouldn't want to breed related animals.":firedevil

[meretseger]

Here, I've got some concept art you can sell on the page. Just slap it on a coffee mug or something.

Erin B.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

A prime example that this kind of thing happens all the time with no one being sued over it. Dan & Colette Sutherland own Ballpython.com, & BallPythons.com but Ralph Davis owns BallPython.net, Ballpythons.net, Ballpythons.org, Ballpython.org, Drew McHenry owns Ballpython.us. Sean Bradley owns Ballpythonmorphs.com, I own Ballpythonmorphs.net, Anthony McCain owns Ballpythons.us, etc etc. If Mr. Barringer wanted to rule out any possible missed customers he should have purchased all the domains in the beginning but he did not. It is not illegal and unethical at all.

[WebSlave]

I think we all know why this is taking place at this particular time.

Some people are posting negative things right in the auction itself at ReptiBid to try to torpedo the auction. They appear to be remarkably versed and slanted in that other guy's camp. Probably just a coincidence though....

Speaking of which, someone on that auction apparently thought that the copies of the complaint form were posted on KINGSNAKES.COM by JeffB, thereby showing his new ownership of that site. I had to change the index.html file to point to the auction itself to show them that their assumption was incorrect.

So why was JeffB so unconcerned when I just owned the name but is getting his skittles scrambled now that I have offered it for sale?

He leased (all domain names are only leased, no one actually OWNS them) kingsnake.com on 02/08/1997. Kingsnakes.com was available up until 12/01/1998 when John Organiscak leased it. John had kingsnakes.com up until 05/29/2003 when it was transferred over to me. I started the auction for kingsnakes.com on Reptibid on 11/12/2003. It wasn't until 11/20/2003 when that copy of the ICANN complaint was mailed to me.

Incidentally, that statement in JeffB's complaint to ICANN about Steve Schindler is completely misleading. Check out this link which is being used as an exhibit in JeffB's complaint package:

John Organiscak thread (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16834)

Steve's comment is on page 2 of that thread. Steve PURPOSELY typed in KINGSNAKES.COM into his browser to see what he would get. He did not and was not attempting to get to kingsnakes.com. So JeffB has not even provided any evidence whatsoever of someone accidentally going to my site through kingsnakes.com.

I wonder if JeffB has secured Steve Schindler's permission to use his post as evidence in this complaint? I do know that I did not grant anyone permission to make copies of my copyrighted materials for any reason.

I have been looking over the copied pages that have been enclosed as "evidence" for this complaint, and they are laughable! Unbelievably so, as a matter of fact. If ICANN gets around to addressing this issue before I die of old age, I am really looking forward to seeing their response to JeffB and his attorney.

Heck, I guess whoever owns the name LAMPROPELTIS.COM better be shaking in their boots right about now.... :laugh:

[Larry67]

Ok...Hypothetical

You have owned Rkreptiles.com for 5 years.
Your site specializes in Cb Ambanja Panthers.
The site is #1 for Ambanja Panthers on the www
You have worked your butt of to get it to that point
You earn an income and support your family based on the site

Now Johns Chameleons a new startup owns
www.johnschams.com and also sells ambanja
chameleons like you.

He buys Rkreptile.com and has it forwarded to
his site.

Now why do you think he did that?
According to people here you have to be knucklehead or have thumbs for fingers to mistype right? -So why is it?
Is it ethical?
Is it legal?

Answer to the last 2 qurestions...NO

[Sasheena]

You're not a knucklehead to MISTYPE IT you are a knucklehead to THINK YOU ARE AT YOUR DESTINATION.

This Christmas hubby and I are driving to Estes Park Colorado... 9000+ elevation. IF we end up at the ocean, we'll KNOW we made a wrong turn.

IF I type kingsnakes.com and don't get where I expected to go, I try again. We all know that typos happen. The silly thing is to think that you are at your destination when it looks all wrong. The other day I remembered purchasing some items from a website. Didn't remember the url. So I typed several in, they were all nearly the same url. Just slight differences. They ALL sold the same kinds of stuff. But I didn't stop typing in the URL's until I was sure I got to the site I was looking for. Didn't matter to me if sites A, B, and C sold reptile supplies all for the same amount of money. I had already bought from Site D, and so I kept going until I found what I know. Did I feel that the other sites were SNEAKY to have similar URL's? Nah. Some looked visually very similar, did I think THEY were sneaky? Nah. I didn't care how they looked, I went till I found my destination.

Now if Rich made a website that exactly imitated kingsnake.com down to the links and everything only led to different content that was perhaps harmful to KS's reputation and business, that would be unethical. (And copyright violation, and snuffed out in no time).

[Darin Chappell]

Larry,

I only ask because you seem to be very certain in your opinion concerning this issue . . . Are you an attorney?

I am certainly not, but it seems to me, knowing the animosity that exists between the protagonists here, that JeffB would have simply sued Rich if he thought he successfully could. Why go through this much less threatening step of arbitration, if a straightforward lawsuit were "winable?" I just don't understand that.

Also, internet law is hazy at best, because it is so new and untested. Why are you so adamant in your opinion? I am truly curious and mean no disrespect in my questioning.

TYIA

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Larry,

If in your post case I had forgotten to renew my subscription to my site rkreptiles.com then it is open for ANYONE to purchase and use as they wish. Now would I be happy about it if I lost my domain? No! but that is the way the cookie crumbles. If Anyone wants a site that is close in name to theirs then they purchase it to ensure nothing happens except what you would like to happen with that Domain name. If you choose not to purchase the domain then so be it but don't come complaining about it down the road when someone else does purchase it. If Rich was running his site that cloned or even closely resembled Jeff's site I could see a problem but it does not even come close to appearing the same so I see absolutely no problem with it. What I do find weird is if Jeff actually though that he could win he would have filed suit for it instead of taking this route.

[odatria]

"Why go through this much less threatening step of arbitration, if a straightforward lawsuit were "winable?"

I would ask the opposite. Why sue someone when there is a mechanism in place to handle such complaints. Lawsuits are expensive. VERY expensive! And Im not just talking about attorney fees. There are fees for everything. Filing fees, response fees etc... Remember, this isnt a small claims matter where you pay $30 and represent yourself. Also, by Jeff complaining the way he did and asking for a hearing, he can always sue if the hearing doesnt go in his favor. Try doing that in reverse. If he sues, and loses he can surely ask for a hearing, but who is going to side in his favor when he has already lost in a court of law. I think Jeff is going about this correctly by reserving the right to sue later.

HOWEVER!!! If he were smart, he would have just bought it from Rich when it was offered to him. Now it is likely he will get nothing, but a stack of legal fees!

Odatria

[Larry67]

Darin, no not an atty, but I do know it is not legal.

On the sue vs arbitration.

Thats actually easy. Lawsuits are very expensive and based on the ICANN rules arbitration seems to be the preferable route.
Besides Darin for almost no cost to KS the issue has been resolved. The redirect is gone and no litigation was necessary.

Rob, seems you avoided my direct questions.

So if this did happen exactly as I had described, you feel it would be ethical and legal all because you didnt reserve it?
You gotta be kidding right?

The sites both sell banner advertising, have classifieds and forums. Colors, fonts and profitability dont really matter here. The redirect was illegal like it or not. That is why the redirect was taken off so swiftly.

[WebSlave]

Why go through this much less threatening step of arbitration, if a straightforward lawsuit were "winable?" I just don't understand that.


I think the following will answer that question:


8. Transfers During a Dispute.

a. Transfers of a Domain Name to a New Holder. You may not transfer your domain name registration to another holder (i) during a pending administrative proceeding brought pursuant to Paragraph 4 or for a period of fifteen (15) business days (as observed in the location of our principal place of business) after such proceeding is concluded; or (ii) during a pending court proceeding or arbitration commenced regarding your domain name unless the party to whom the domain name registration is being transferred agrees, in writing, to be bound by the decision of the court or arbitrator. We reserve the right to cancel any transfer of a domain name registration to another holder that is made in violation of this subparagraph.

b. Changing Registrars. You may not transfer your domain name registration to another registrar during a pending administrative proceeding brought pursuant to Paragraph 4 or for a period of fifteen (15) business days (as observed in the location of our principal place of business) after such proceeding is concluded. You may transfer administration of your domain name registration to another registrar during a pending court action or arbitration, provided that the domain name you have registered with us shall continue to be subject to the proceedings commenced against you in accordance with the terms of this Policy. In the event that you transfer a domain name registration to us during the pendency of a court action or arbitration, such dispute shall remain subject to the domain name dispute policy of the registrar from which the domain name registration was transferred.


Funny how this complaint shows up just when I am trying to sell it, isn't it? Even if he doesn't win that arbitration dispute, which I truthfully doubt will happen, he has now tied up KINGSNAKES.COM so I cannot transfer ownership. Anyone interested in leasing that domain name from me and developing it? I will offer a monthly rate and you retain the rights to all coding on the site. Hosting on my server will be included in the price. :) When this is resolved in my favor, the lease amounts can be applied towards the purchase price. If somehow the decision goes against me, I will handle it however you request, including a full refund, if necessary.

It looks like JeffB has botched up my plans to get Connie her truck this year. Thanks Jeff. I will remember this. If you want to have it as JeffB verses the rest of the herp world, then so be it.


HOWEVER!!! If he were smart, he would have just bought it from Rich when it was offered to him. Now it is likely he will get nothing, but a stack of legal fees!


No, I never offered that domain name to JeffB. Actually I have had no correspondence with JeffB since that phone call when he demanded I delete that Adam Block thread. I have sent him a few emails since then, but none have ever been responded to. I'm not sure how he found out about the domain name transfer, but I know he did call John Organiscak to ask him about it about a day after the transfer was completed.


Besides Darin for almost no cost to KS the issue has been resolved. The redirect is gone and no litigation was necessary.


No, that apparently is not true. I have seen no indication that the arbitration process has been halted.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Larry,

I do think it is legal. If I were to close my doors completely and let the domain go then if someone wanted to purchase it and gain the traffic from my site them so be it. I see nothing illegal about it at all.

Also it appears that the only reason Jeff is trying this now is he wants the sale stopped. Maybe he is concerned about who will purchase it next and what "they" will do with it. To be honest if someone wants the site that much they must have a few ideas of what they want to utilize the domain for.

[Darin Chappell]

"...no not an atty, but I do know it is not legal."

I agree that one need not be an attorney to see that something is or is not legal, but I was wondering if you might cite some specific law that you think Rich has violated. Not a legal or ethical principle, mind you, but the actual infraction of an actual legal code, please.

Is it a federal law, a state law, or a local ordinance? Just please let me know which law it is that Rich is supposed to have broken. I would be interested in knowing what the penalties are for doing what you say he has done, and for me to do that sort of research, I would need some sort of referrence point.

Thank you again for your help, Larry.

[Larry67]

Darin, this same issue has been litigated prior to this.
I'll have to do some research to determine if its in fact a Rule, Law or case law, but I do know it is not legal.
What he has done with the site now is within his rights.
The redirect was not!

Darin, has the webslave ever backed down to a threat or threat of lawsuit before? Im guessing no. If im correct why did he make the switch AFTER getting the arbitration notice. Just a coincidence? No

Rob, I said NOTHING about closing your doors. That is not the issue here. Please just answer the original question.

As stated before, if KS did not approach the issue prior to filing for arbitration, then that was a mistake, but thats just my opinion.
Im sure sure the long standing bad feelings between both parties had everything to do with it.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

To answer your question once again Larry No I do not think it is illegal or unethical If you have some proof that it is illegal then by all means show it as you are the only one I see that is saying it is illegal. Everyone else says it is not.

[WebSlave]

Darin, has the webslave ever backed down to a threat or threat of lawsuit before? Im guessing no. If im correct why did he make the switch AFTER getting the arbitration notice. Just a coincidence? No


I guess some of the old timers here will remember when Joe Polanco filed suit against JeffB for something to do with a tree boa forum or something or another. I don't remember the details. But do you all remember what JeffB did at that time?

For you people who do not remember or it was before your time, JeffB simply put up copies of the suit letter in place of the forums. He shut down ALL the forums at that time on kingsnake.com. I didn't do anything nearly as drastic, but instead I removed the referral and posted copies of the complaint letter in like situation, for obvious reasons to people who remembered that prior event.

Earlier today I changed the KINGSNAKES.COM index.html page to point to the auction itself because some people on ReptiBid were under the mistaken impression that JeffB had already taken possession of the domain name, and HE was the one who posted those pages there to proclaim HIS ownership of that domain name.

Do you all understand the sequence of events now?

BTW, that referral to FAUNACLASSIFIEDS.COM is exactly how I set up ALL of my parked herp related domains. I have around 50 or so of them, most of which point to FAUNACLASSIFIEDS.COM, some to CORNSNAKES.COM, and I think a few to SERPENCO.COM. KINGSNAKES.COM was not treated in any special way or differently from all of those other domain names in my possession.

I have reviewed the ICANN materials on their website and am very confident that this will be resolved quickly and in my favor. There are three requiements that ALL must be met for a claim to be found in favor of the complainant (JeffB). I will list them here and a rough sketch response to them:


a. Applicable Disputes. You are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding in the event that a third party (a "complainant") asserts to the applicable Provider, in compliance with the Rules of Procedure, that

(i) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights; and

It is VERY common for one party to own the singular version of a domain name and another person the plural. A simple perusal of domain names will prove this to be absolutely true. This is so commonly done and is certainly not confusing to anyone, that most people simply go from one to the other to see what is on each site. As long as both sites are not confusingly similar in appearance, which certainly is NOT the case between KINGSNAKE.COM and KINGSNAKES.COM, no one is even remotely going to mistake one site for the other. To date, there has been no proof offered that even a single solitary person became confused between the two sites. The one instance that is mentioned of a Steve Schindler neglected to point out the Mr. Schindler PURPOSELY typed in KINGSNAKES.COM into his web browser to see what was on that domain name. He was NOT confused about what he was doing.

(ii) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

Yes, I have every right to have a domain name that is a very identifiable and popular group of animals well populated within the people who are interested in this field of interest. MANY people keep and breed kingsnakes in the herpetological field. Having a domain name of such animals is VERY desirable and logical to procure if possible. My interests were to have this name for possible future development, or to sell as an investment, if the opportunity were to arise. This is EXTREMELY common concerning domain name registrations, which I am certain you are fully aware of.

(iii) your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.

It is not being used in bad faith, nor was it transferred to me for such use. However, if humor of a situation is considered as bad faith, then yes, I guess I am guilty of that one. Once I took over ownership, I had no immediate plans for it, so all I did was to set it up with a referral link to one of my own active domains. I have done he exact same thing for approximately 50 parked domains in my name. This one was not treated any differently or in any manner exceptional from my usual actions.

In the administrative proceeding, the complainant must prove that each of these three elements are present.

[WebSlave]

Oh as far as legallity is concerned, the only thing I can think of that would possibly apply is the CYBERSQUATTING law. I think a keyword search in AltaVista should be able to bring up links to that text for you. Please post anything you feel is relevant here for others to read and consider.

Thanks.

[Adam Block]

Larry, RKreptiles.com and kingsnake are not even close to the same thing. If you owned RKreptile.com and your name was Rob King it would be a strong copyright. If somebody got RKreptile.com and their name was Randy Kandy then you'd have no case. Even that could be a tough fight.

Stop whining about people getting your plural domain names or spend the money to hord them all. I don't own any of mine cause frankly I don't care if people want them.

You could go get:

serpenco.biz
serpenco.info
serpenco.net
serpenco.org
serpencos.biz
serpencos.com
serpencos.info
serpencos.net
serpencos.org
faunaclassifieds.biz
faunaclassifieds.info
faunaclassifieds.org
faunaclassified.biz
faunaclassified.info
faunaclassified.net
faunaclassified.org

right now if you wanted them. It's clear Rich isn't going to go acting like a child if you do but at the same time he's not going to spend $130 a year to keep you from having them. I bet all of those 16 sites don't get more then 5 hits a year from people typing in the wrong domain.

Think ahead, either have a strong copyright or register EVERYTHING you don't want people to have along with the names you want.

[C. Reynolds]

I like that you redirected the domain to the auction, that in itself was genious...however, what about having it forward itself to a forum about kingsnakes on this site? That way you are using the name to direct someone to species information and not your site in general.

Unless that was the way it was originally setup to begin with...

[Adam Block]

Cybersquatting means registering, selling or using a domain name with the intent of profiting from the goodwill of someone else's trademark. It generally refers to the practice of buying up domain names that use the names of existing businesses with the intent to sell the names for a profit to those businesses.

Rich you're NUTS, kingsnake isn't a trademark it's a snake!

Larry, I don't want to get in trouble for calling you an idiot so I'm not going to but please look into the laws before you prove that famous quote of Pres. Lincoln to be true!

I mentioned it might be wise to redirect to something that would better make use of the huge amount of traffic Jeff is going to bring to kingsnakes.com. There's nothing Rich is doing that is against the law, even if it were forwarded to fauna there's no legal issue. However, when everybody knows how to get here what's the point in sending all that traffic here when it can go to Jeff's whining and show what a child he is of the auction and get Rich's wife a much nicer truck.

Rich, I think your wife might end up having to thank Jeff for the extra money he's going to get you for that truck. This kind of advertising is only free when you get some goof ball to act up and have a fit.

[C. Reynolds]

I might be interested in leasing the name, should it come to that. :)

[C. Reynolds]

I guess you can't edit a post in here?

[Larry67]

Webslave- after the arbitration notice you switched the redirect.
Why? It wasnt a coincidence was it?

If you wanna prove your point put back the redirect to this site and let the arbitration board review the complaint as it stands.

Without the redirect in place, I suspect you will prevail.
Since im the one person on the web that thinks it is illegal then put it back. You wanted to get at Jeff. Leaving the redirect AND winning at arbitration would truley be a huge victory.

The rules you quoted are often litigated which creates case law.
Rules, Laws, Policies are often ambiguous which is why you get case law to clarify an issue.

This can go on forever. If I do run across a specific ruling/policy i will return and post the link.

I look forward to the arbitration outcome.
Hopefully favorable so you can sell the name, move on and
buy your wife that car.

Good Luck

[WebSlave]

If you wanna prove your point put back the redirect to this site and let the arbitration board review the complaint as it stands.


Well, according to the ICANN arbitration text I read, whatever I do after the complaint is filed has no bearing whatsoever. I assume you read my post about the sequence of events, so you can either take that at face value or not, your choice. This whole arbitration complaint is nothing more than a nuisance tactic. When I recieve the official complaint form and need to file a response, it will be VERY detailed and plainly paint the picture of what this is really all about. I DO have all my ducks lined up for this.

After the auction is over, I'm not sure if I will leave it pointing to the auction or move it back to point to FaunaClassifieds.com. Depends on the outcome, I suppose. If the bidding goes to a substantial $$ amount, then I may just leave it pointing to the auction as excellent advertising to what people felt the domain name is worth paying for. Even as it stands now at $7,700 is not a bad showing for it, I suppose. I think that would be the most logical and reasonable thing to do, based on the fact that the primary reason for the auction in the first place was to get attention to it, get people excited about possibly owning that name, and make it even more valuable to whoever might possibly win the auction.

When I got that domain name, it was treated no differently than any other of the domain names I set up as parked domains. Why should I have treated it as anything special? Heck it was just a chuckle factor event for me, but beyond that, it meant nothing. I can PROVE that very easily. JeffB has helped me out with that with his banning of those domain names because they were all linked, along with KINGSNAKES.COM, to FaunaClassifieds.com. This is all documented in a thread on this site.

Anyway, I already have a substantial offer for the domain name, no matter what the results of the auction, so I don't really care either way. And if I should have to keep it myself, well heck, domain names don't eat much and for $15 per year, I think I can bear up under the financial strain of owning it.

You know, John Organsicak did tell me that he still has kingsnakes.net to his name. Actually, there are a LOT of kingsnake (the snake, not the website) enthusiasts in the world that may be looking for a relevant domain name in the future. Maybe I should register a few more that are still available as investments.

[Roger Jolly]

No, if Jeffie could have sued he would have sued. His panties are wadded up into such a tight knot right now that I bet he squeaks when he talks. Lawsuits trigger countersuits, and from what I have seen, webslave could wind up owning kingsnake.com as well as kingsnakes.com when the dust settles. There is a definite pattern of activity that any judge will take into consideration and many people who would serve as character witnesses. Jeffie, you don't have many real friends in this business, only people that are putting up with you for what you have that they want. When the chips are down, and it looks like you are on the way out, when you are becoming irrelevant to them, watch how many of them stand beside you.

That is the real reason you try to keep your users as mushrooms. Because honest and open debate would bring down your house of cards. Even on your own site. As it is you have no other choice but to ban those people, or listen to them and admit what they are saying is true.

[Adam Block]

Rodger, GOOD POINT!!!

Jeff has found himself in a spot when his hand is forced.. Everybody would walk out on him if they could afford to.

Must suck to know the only reason people smile at you is because they're scared you're going to cancel their account.

At least Rich knows we're all here and will stick up for him because we like/respect him and think he's a good person.

[Khaman]

I would like to point out that the World Wrestling Federation before it changed its name held WWF.com and the World Wildlife Fund could not touch it. Though People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals until recently could not get PETA.com because someone snagged it and called his site People Eating Tasty Animals. He recently lost it in a court battle but the ICANN board time and time again said it was his.

Scott Petty

[Roger Jolly]

Also, by Jeff complaining the way he did and asking for a hearing, he can always sue if the hearing doesnt go in his favor. Try doing that in reverse. If he sues, and loses he can surely ask for a hearing, but who is going to side in his favor when he has already lost in a court of law. I think Jeff is going about this correctly by reserving the right to sue later.


Well this statement got my thinking cap to smoking real bad. This whole thing is nuts.

If this arbitration process is not binding to the complainant and they can ignore the ruling and file suit anyway, then what good is it? Certainly the person the complaint is filed against cannot be held bound by the arbitration ruling either, and he can sue if the abritration goes against him. So if this arbitration is not binding on both parties, why even bother with it?

If the arbitration goes against webslave, all he has to do is to sue the arbitrator for an illegal taking of his personal property. Since this is not going to be a legally binding due process, then he can most certainly do that. Both OnlineHobbyist and the arbitration panel could be named in the lawsuit equally.

How many threatened lawsuits are taking place on this site now??? Anyone keeping a scoreboard???

[longissima]

Since im the one person on the web that thinks it is illegal then put it back.
If I do run across a specific ruling/policy i will return and post the link.
I'm not a alwyer, I just play one on the world wide web. My extensive legal training has told me that opinions do NOT equal fact. Anyone else concur? If not, the defense rests.

Hey Larry, what the %#@! are you talking about? And why does Rich have to prove anything to you? Just wondering.....

[KNOBTAIL]

to have the longest pockets, and how much is this going to cost and is this worth persuing. That is what I assume Jeff has in the back of his mind. I dont know how far Rich wants to go with this ball, nor do I know if Jeff will be successful with arbitration, but I do know that he can persue it, and he may do just that .......regardless of the cost. Money is always the final arbitrator ! JERRY TRESSER

[Max Peterson]

The banner ad's still up, but the auction itself shows an error message.
What's up with that?

[WebSlave]

The auction ended at 9pm EST. That's probably what you are seeing. I just didn't have a chance to remove the banner ad from the rotation.

[JungleHabitats]

inquirying minds wanna know lol

[WebSlave]

No. That arbitration action filed by JeffB effectively ruined the auction and chased away prospective buyers, in my opinion.

[JungleHabitats]

hmm maybe you need to open that as a forum site only and let only banned ex members of kingsnake use it. theres going to be alot of them .. there banning more each day i hear ...

[dwedeking]

Rich,

Did you have bidders on that auction before the filing of Jeff that pulled out? If so I believe you may have grounds for a suit. Wouldn't that be poetic justice for JeffB to pay for damages on the auction without recieving the domain?

[WebSlave]

Hmm, since I can't do anything useful with the domain name, maybe I'll do something useless with it. Or let someone else play with it for a while. After the server switchover, though.

[WebSlave]

Dan,

I had a very firm offer of an outright buy of the domain name. The auction was to try to drum up some interest for the guy before he took over ownership, since I doubt anyone was going to meet his price, much less the reserve I had on it. Bidding went up to $7,700 before the arbitration crap hit the fan.

[Hues1]

Let me start off by saying that whatever the price......would've been well worth it.

From a business standpoint.....

Domain names are only as good as what they represent. Someone could have the absolute worst website on the net with little or no advertising and still pick up quite a bit of traffic with a target specific domain such as...kingsnakes.com, cornsnakes.com, dogs.com,cats.com,houses.com,cars.com,motorcycles. com....etc.

We've all done it before......sat at our computers and typed in "keywords" in the hopes that the site we're directed to just so happens to be one about that "keyword" we typed in.

In this day and age.....most people that register a domain do it for profit, the days of people registering a domain just to share the family album or have a gathering place for their friends is long gone.....well mostly.

I personally own/lease 18 domains with 12 having to do with reptiles and 6 having to do with my other passion for exotic sports cars. I can tell you that all of them are/will be used for some sort of financial gain.

It seems as if I'm always and continually looking for yet another domain to add in my portfolio......well it just happens I made Rich an offer on Kingsnakes.com and have also been bidding on it. I can tell you that the offer I made Rich was very substantial and if Rich wishes to disclose that here......I dont have a problem with it.

As for what I was planning to do with it ??? you will all just have to wait and see.....thats if I end up with it !

Just a little bit of info for all of the people going ooohhh and ahhhhh because they think there's a conspiracy going on or something......I currently advertise over on kingsnake.com via Jeff's classifieds and have also had one of my previous domains(chameleons-n-geckos.com) hosted over there too.....I currently have my site hosted here on Fauna with Rich....because he gave me a hell of a deal and was also willing to do the same for any other domains I could conjure up ( including non reptile/animal related sites ) which Jeff does not do. I also respect Rich's "whats right is right" attitude and thinking. No B.S. and straight to the point.

Let me finish by saying that besides the chuckle factor.....Rich never had any intention of doing something malicious with Kingsnakes.com......I offered to purchase it from him on my own accord.....heck the first time I wanted it......he turned me down !

[Adam Block]

We've all done it before......sat at our computers and typed in "keywords" in the hopes that the site we're directed to just so happens to be one about that "keyword" we typed in.

I wouldn't tell ya what I've tried for $100,000! I will say it's amazing what people have for domains! There are some odd ducks in the world, me included!

[WebSlave]

OK gang! I just set up a completely unmoderated message board on kingsnakes.com. Amazingly enough, that message board came with CPanel and ANYONE hosting a domain on my server can set one up with just about the snap of your fingers.

(I had to put a little plug in there, you understand...)

Anyway, everyone has all rights, I don't think you even have to register.

So have at it. I may check in on it once a week or so, just out of curiosity.

YOU are supposed to only talk about kingsnakes there, but it doesn't matter one bit to me if you don't. I'm kind of curious to see what happens on a completely unmoderated message board. Sorry, it's not the linear type of board, but it was free and easy to set up on that domain name, so that's what you got.

Who knows? It may even become popular?
I'll just keep this up until I think of something useful to do with the domain name while it is in limbo.

[JungleHabitats]

and so does Kingsnakes.com...lol

[rtdunham]

Hi Rich,

Looking at this in a business light and not as part of personal antagonisms, I can understand barringer's position. I published a magazine for 15 years, it was my life's business activity, and i would have taken action if someone started a mag with the same name plus or minus one letter, covering the same subject matter. Put a different way, I'd think you'd object if someone started a site named faunaclassified.com (singular instead of plural) and executed the same efforts at that site? I realize you may have protected that name, but the answer to the hypothetical may still be meaningful.

As I think you know Rich, I have friends in both places and find myself in a sort of rodney king-role, just wishing we could all get along and talk about snakes instead! I hope you don't mind my sharing a business opinion. BTW, at least in this instance there's an independent outside organization to decide who's right and wrong, where there can't be any accusations afterward of bias, I'd think.

I appreciate the hard work you do making possible the many valuable herp-related exchanges that go on here. Thanks.

peace
terry dunham
albino tricolors

[gmherps]

I agree whole heartdedly with what you're saying!

[KNOBTAIL]

Jeff looses the arbitration, I am sure he will persue it legally. Now as I indicated in my earlier post, how much money is Rich willing to shell out to keep this battle going. Jeff makes a considerable profit with Kingsnake, and Rich makes nothing with Kingsnakes. So you be the judge. I doubt that no one would even consider purchasing the site from Rich at this point, nor do I envision any amiacable solution other than Jeff causing a financial burden on Rich. As it stands their is bad blood between the two sites, and I see no easing of tensions on either side. Rich of course may be more reasonable in his approach to dealing with problems that arise, but its been shown time and time again that Jeff leaves no room for negotiations. JERRY TRESSER

[WebSlave]

I understand what you are saying, Terry, but this is not the same thing. The term "kingsnakes" is generic to this industry. It is an easily identifiable term that many people, both novices and alike would use as a search term to try to find a website related to their interest in kingsnakes. This group of snakes, by far, is one of the most popular of genera of snakes typically being bought and sold in the pet industry, and as such is valuable for that fact alone.

The term "kingsnakes" and "king snakes" is used interchangeable in the herp trade. Certainly if spaces were allowed within domain names there is no doubt that "king snakes" would be an active herp site as well. This common generic name has been in common usage for a VERY LONG TIME. I have an extensive herp library, some books dating back into the 1800s, and I can show conclusively to any court that this generic name has been in common usage for longer than any of us have been alive.

If we were talking about me having JEFFBARRINGERS.COM or ONLINEHOBBYISTS.COM, well yes, then I think there would be a definite case for contention. Quite frankly, Jeff Barringer does not own the terms KINGSNAKE or KINGSNAKES. No one can. If it takes me going to court in order to prove that, then so be it.

Those names are being used as placeholders for websites on the internet. They are much easier to remember than IP address, which is why we have domain names. And that is why domain names of an easily recognizeable generic nature are considered as being valuable.

Terry, tell me, if you had the opportunity to get MILKSNAKES.COM for yourself, would you? The idea being, wouldn't you WANT people interested in milksnakes to come to your site? I assume you read the earlier parts of this thread in how I came to get KINGSNAKES.COM. There was no cash out of my pocket, and in the process I got to do a good deed for a friend of mine. Tell me you wouldn't do the same thing.

FAUNACLASSIFIEDS.COM, like it or not, is primarily being utilized by herp enthusiasts. Any herp related domain name that could be utilized to bring that traffic to this site would be considered as an asset. But really good identifiable domain names are now few and far between. The law of supply and demand is what makes value in any commodity.

Try to find any generic name of a group of reptiles commonly kept in captivity and/or regularly bought and sold in the pet trade that is still available. Even branching out into areas where less commonly seen pet quality reptiles are indicated, a casual search on my part could only come up with RIBBONSNAKES.COM as being still available. Not exactly a hot commodity, I would say.

This whole thing is just very unfortunate. I was obviously in the process of selling off that domain name, so there is no doubt at all that I had no intention of using it in any malicious manner or in bad faith. And yes I did find the situation humorous in the fact that I was dead certain that Jeff Barringer would want that domain name. And the fact that I now had it would not set well with him. In reality, he could have bought it from John Organsicak at any time he wanted to. Things just worked out the way they did by pure chance.

KINGSNAKES.COM was not treated in any manner inconsistent in how I have treated all of my other parked herp related domain names. It was merely placed in limbo containing a referral link to this site until I could find the time to even think about what to do with it. Bear in mind that I obtained this domain name around May 29th of this year. I was at the peak of the process of having 5,500 corn snakes being laid. On May 29th ALONE, I had 19 clutches laid that needed tending to. What to do with KINGSNAKES.COM was just not top on my priority list at that time.

I have 90+ domain names to my name right at the moment. Many are being held with the intention of sometime in the future maybe setting up an active website, leasing them, or outright selling them if I have the desire and incentive to do so. Matter of fact, the only reason Alex Hue even became aware of my ownership of KINGSNAKES.COM was when he was inquiring to me about how to do domain name referral jumps and I just happened to use that as an example to show him how it was done.

And yes, when he approached me about buying the domain name, I just told him no, because I really didn't have any idea about what I wanted to do with the doman name at that time. I was comfortable with just having it. When he made me a VERY good offer, that was when I decided to sell it. It was NOT for sale until he made me an offer I could not refuse. The auction was decided on by both of us to generate some excitement about the domain name and to generate instant traffic for Alex's site when he got the domain name and made it into an active site. I purposely set the reserve price so high that NO ONE else was at all likely to win that auction. As far as I was concerned, the domain name was already sold.

In retrospect, yes, I guess I should have just sold Alex the name and been done with it, but I felt that I was doing Alex a favor and I was curious myself as well as to how many hits that auction would get on ReptiBid. One of these days I am going to have to learn to stop doing nice things and favors for people.

[Adam Block]

LOL, just for kicks I went to see if king-snake.com was taken. Some goof must have been reading this and decided to get it.

Rich and I both play around with domains, I've owned everything from my favorite presidents name.com to kyza.com...

Point is, I never deal with hyphen or number domains. They're basicly worthless! king-snake.com will be the same but point is this is bringing out some interest.

Oh wait, I own 4adam.com so I have a number domain. Wanted a slogan, "if you're looking for adam go to 4adam.com" and of course just adam was very long gone.

[Jeff Nichols]

... the Consigliere' also bears the family name.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols:D

[Mustangrde1]

Rich.

I don't know if this helps as it is OLD information. But years back well taking a bussiness class we had a Lawyer come in and speak with us. He brought up the fact that NO ONE can own a name of a specific living life form as in patend the name. A good example is in the perfume industry where they can make a generic name for their product but can not patend the flowers or spices used. I still get confused by that as I am not an attourney.

You tried to bury the Ax with Jeff awhile back and yet he still keeps trying to make your life miserable. You did the upstanding thing in my opinion. Perhaps you should think of a countersuit at this point.. From the amount of people he TOSSES from his site at will that did nothing more then state an opinion well withen his TOS and still gets the boot. I believe you would have plenty of proof to his charachter and nature and his obvious harassment.

Just a thought granted I need coffee but perhaps a counter suit would wake him up. Then again maybe it would only make him cry louder.

Scott Bice

[WebSlave]

On November 27, 2003, I sent the following email entitled "Truce" to Jeff Barringer:


Jeff,

Well it's pretty obvious that we both have hard heads, both hate to back down from a confrontation, and both have short fuses, eh? I think it's time we try to work this out between us and try to mend whatever is broken before it gets any further out of hand. I am sure we could both be spending the rest of our lives in court fighting each other, but is that what you or I really want to do? I think we both have better and more productive things to do with our time and efforts, and I am suggesting that we try to talk this out and stop butting heads continually.

It is pretty unbelievable that this has been going on for so long and I personally am tired of the conflict, tired of hearing about what you do on your site, and tired of this whole damned mess. I sincerely wish that I had not been swayed by those people who got themselves all worked up in a lather when I decided to end the warfare a while back, at least my part of it, by canning the discussions about other sites on my boards. By allowing it to continue, it just allowed this all to continue eating away at any possibility of a peaceful resolution. I positively and sincerely had intended to do exactly what I stated about eliminating such talk on my site.

People are now egging me on to sue you, probably people are egging you on to sue me. But I have to wonder how many people would be completely overjoyed if we both went down with death grips on each other's throats?

So I am asking you flat out: Do you want to try to work this out?

I don't even know if we can, maybe the gulf is too wide now, but I think it would be a good idea for everyone if we at least try.

And yes, I am apologizing for those things I have done just to tweak your nose, or get a laugh at your expense. I guess my feelings got hurt, and yes I am human. But regardless, I really should have been above all that and tried to set an example for other people to follow.

Have a fulfilling Thanksgiving, regardless. ;)


No response was received. A followup message was sent later that day from a different email account, just in case.

On November 28, 2003 I placed the following order with OnlineHobbyist.com:

Dear Rich Zuchowski
Thank you for your order!

Thank you for your purchase .
_______________________________________
Customer/Shopper ID: 17137
Date and Time: 11/28/03 22:07:10 CST
_______________________________________

Item: Details: Quantity: Each: Item Total:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Storefront Page - Breeders 1 $ 161.63 $ 161.63
- 1 Year Annual Sales Tax: +$11.63
Account http://www.SerpenCo.com
World class breeder and
provider of cutting edge
corn snakes.
- kingsnake.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sub Total: $ 161.63
Grand Total: $ 161.63 PAID

_______________________________________
These products will be shipped to:

Rich Zuchowski
SerpenCo

-- address info deleted by WebSlave --
_______________________________________

Peace offering.

Emphasis added.


To which the following response was received:


A credit for the amount of $161.63 has been applied to your credit card.
Please feel free to contact ONLINEHOBBYIST.COM,INC about any questions you might have about this
transaction or order #17137.

You can send us e-mail at receipts@onlinehobbyist.com or just reply to this message.

Thank you for your patronage.


A reply to the email requesting the reason for the rejection was not replied to:

I would like to have an official reason why my order was rejected.
SerpenCo.com has never violated any of kingsnake.com's TOS rules.


FYI.....

[JungleHabitats]

someone has SAND in there Diaper

[Monte]

. . . no matter what anyone else says - it's OK to call a truce - even if it's one-sided. It doesn't do any good to keep goading KS - it just drags you down further. If someone doesn't call it quits, it's only going to get worse.

I've read about a number of "herp feuds" on the BOI - and I don't see one that has ended in a good way. Sure, some one might be declared a "winner" or "loser" but in the end - you are the one who has to live with all the memories, the hassles and the anger. Life's too short - you have too many cool corn snakes to produce to be sucked into this never-ending feud. Someone HAS to be above this contant herp-slugfest.

It may not turn out the way you want, in the end - but nevertheless, you have done the right thing.

Ultimately, there has to be some solace in doing the right thing, even if it gets rejected.

Personally, I applaud your efforts!

[rtdunham]

I too applaud your efforts. Monty's right, it's always best to do the right thing regardless of the response. I liked your "truce" text. Well done.

peace
terry dunham
albino tricolors

[gila7150]

I applaud your efforts Rich. You have been the bigger man in this whole ordeal and you've tried to take the high road.

You've given him every opportunity to mend fences and come out looking like a reasonable person. The problem is that you can't make dogsh*t taste like candy no matter how much sugar you sprinkle on it.

Kingsnake has been a very successful venture for Jeff but he will eventually kill it. It will take a while but I can already see a slow decline over there during the past year.

[JungleHabitats]

I to agree with your efforts in trying to show Jeff how it takes a "Bigger man" to say sorry and try to get past somthing that IMHO Jeff should have never taken it to in thr first place. This industry is plenty big enough for the both of you to have you rightfull places in it .I like/ed Kingsnake for what it offers in the realm of classifieds and honestly i have gotten more feedback from classifieds that were / are run there then here . But over the last several weeks i think that Jeffs moderators have began takin more drastic steps in which to piss people off so that they decide to leave that site or to give them 1/2 a reason to ban and drop there accounts im not sure which of the two are true but one is i feel confident of.While i still have an account there i am feeling more & more that when april rolls around they will not be getting my renewal to there accounts. I am just fed up they way you get treated there when your not dumping several hundreds if not thousands of dollars into his site ... your basically NOTHING to them . so Rich in my eyes id rather have someone like you as a friend and someone to do buisness with then someone who doesnt appreciate your buisness

[KelliH]

Good job Rich. *KelliH pats Webslave on the back*:)

[KNOBTAIL]

I must tell you, its a little late, and as a matter of fact, I personally believe whatever little hope you may have had in attempting to ease the tensions, between you and Jeff, were thrown out the window when you antagonized Jeff with Kingsnakes. What did you think was going to happen? You understand Jeffs positon with Fauna, and yet you persued a flame by almost making a mockery of his site, and allowing others on this site to add to that flame. Now you want to be his friend! You want to let bygones be bygones. ! You have the audacity to attempt to sign up at Jeffs site thinking that all is forgiven!

Ive been watching this now for over a year. What disturbs me is your flim flopping back and forth. Jeff does not need you, probably does not like you or your site. You see what he can do and has done ,with even the mention of Fauna or anything related to you or your site. So do the right thing, put this to rest, leave this guy alone, dont antagonize him, or make a situation worse than it already is. JERRY TRESSER

[JungleHabitats]

I think if ANYONE has audacity to do anything it would be Jeff.If i am wrong was it not him that started this by banning any mention of Richs sites ?? All because someone said something about Jeff that in all likelyhood was 99% if not 100% true? See Jeff doesnt let or want ANYONE to bring attention to viewers of his site that there are people there that WILL & DO screw people out of money for nothing in return. And i honestly think more people would be less condeming of Jeff if his TOS was for any person that screws another be it not sending what was paid for or be it a sick animals that was sold as healthy.To put a immeadiate stop on the accounts and not let them post items for sale UNTILL there dispute was cleared up. and use his 3 strike rule as a source of punishing the scammer and not the buyer if they screw three people then there off the site plain & simple. I fully can understand why Jeff may have got his diaper twisted on his ass by Rich owning kingsnakes.com but as people have stated he should have had the foresight to PROTECT his site by buying that name when he did kingsnake.com . But he didnt so he was pissed at hiself for letting be available and then when he saw rich owned it he flew hot and went to what he did .. i have to ask why he did not pursue the person that owned it before rich to purchase that name ? Yeah the BOI has its many soap operas in it but when you look at the big picture id have to say thissite alone has done MORE FOR THE BUYERS then kingsnake has or could ever do. Rich knows what he is doing in respect to this site and he knows that freedom of speech is a right that EVERYONE is entitled to. Jeff on the other hand rules with a Iron fist if you dare try to warn pople there wether its against TOS or not you will be silenced and fast .. why is he so fast to protect the guilty and punish the person who is wronged ?. I think if Jeff would have allowed people to speak up for there rights and the right to confront the person that wronged them he might have gained a little more respect.But i guess it doesnt matter to people who have not been scammed ??? thats probably because they came and checked with the BOI before making a purchase .

A perfect example of someone right now that shouldnt be allowed to post ads IMHO is Jon's Jungle... because he has had someones $ since October 13th and that person has not recieved what they paid for .. and Jon even spoke up in a thread about him to say there animals were going out aprrox two weeks ago ... and that person has yet to receive his paid goods... Now is that fair???

[pcsmicro]

Well, When I bought some domains a while back prior to the dot com fallout I would buy all domains I had concern about .com .org .net etc. I don't think they have a leg to stand on. If so all the large companies would sue everybody whom had similar names. Unless they have exclusive trademarks etc. I don't see where there is a legal leg to stand on. Just my opinion. A Network geek



Douglas

[Roger Jolly]

Actually, although I hate legal mumbo jumbo, I have just spent a very entertaining hour or two reading about the issues in this thread. I have a whole file of stuff I am going to forward to webslave they he will probably find of interest to forward to an attorney.

Try this one out for size:

1209.03(m) Domain Names [R-2]
Internet domain names raise some unique trademark issues. A mark comprised of an Internet domain name is registrable as a trademark or service mark only if it functions as an identifier of the source of goods or services. Portions of the uniform resource locator (URL) including the beginning, (“http://www.”) and the top level Internet domain name (TLD) (e.g., “.com,” “.org,” “.edu,”) function to indicate an address on the World Wide Web, and therefore generally serve no source-indicating function. See TMEP §§1215 et seq. regarding marks comprising domain names. TLDs may also signify abbreviations for the type of entity for whom use of the cyberspace has been reserved. For example, the TLD “.com” signifies to the public that the user of the domain name constitutes a commercial entity. In re Martin Container, Inc., 65 USPQ2d 1058, 1060-1061 (TTAB 2002) ("[T]o the average customer seeking to buy or rent containers, "CONTAINER.COM" would immediately indicate a commercial web site on the Internet which provides containers."). See also Goodyear’s India Rubber Glove Mfg. Co. v. Goodyear Rubber Co., 128 U.S. 598, 602 (1888) (“The addition of the word ‘Company’ [to an otherwise generic mark] only indicates that parties have formed an association or partnership to deal in such goods . . . .” and does not render the generic mark registrable).

If a proposed mark includes a TLD such as “.com”, “.biz”, “.info”, the examining attorney should present evidence that the term is a TLD, and, if available, evidence of the significance of the TLD as an abbreviation (e.g. “.edu” signifies an educational institution, “.biz” signifies a business).

Because TLDs generally serve no source-indicating function, their addition to an otherwise unregistrable mark typically cannot render it registrable. In re CyberFinancial.Net, Inc., 65 USPQ2d 1789, 1792 (TTAB 2002) ("Applicant seeks to register the generic term 'bonds,' which has no source-identifying significance in connection with applicant's services, in combination with the top level domain indicator ".com," which also has no source-identifying significance. And combining the two terms does not create a term capable of identifying and distinguishing applicant's services."); In re Martin Container, 65 USPQ2d at 1061 ("[N]either the generic term nor the domain indicator has the capability of functioning as an indication of source, and combining the two does not result in a compound term that has somehow acquired this capability."). See also Goodyear, 128 U.S. at 602 (the incorporation of a term with no source-indicating function into an otherwise generic mark cannot render it registrable). For example, if a proposed mark is composed of merely descriptive term(s) combined with a TLD, the examining attorney must refuse registration on the Principal Register under Trademark Act §2(e)(1), 15 U.S.C. §1052(e)(1), on the ground that the mark is merely descriptive. See TMEP §1215.04.

Similarly, if a proposed mark is composed of generic term(s) for the applicant’s goods or services and a TLD, the examining attorney must refuse registration on the ground that the mark is generic. See TMEP §§1209.01(c)(i) and 1215.05.


The above quote is from the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Here is the link:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmep/1200.htm#_Toc2666059

Webbie, check out the application form for a registered trademark. Its passed my bedtime or I would look into it for ya. If it has anything at all on there asking the applicant whether or not the mark they are using is a generic term, then you could dispute the trademark on grounds of perjury from Jeffie and gang. He probably spent a lot of money for that trademark registration, and it would really make him mad to have it nullified.

There goes his case!!! Jeffie does not sell kingsnakes. He sells services. This generic term is listed countless times on his own website as well as hundreds of other sites. Just as countless other sites sell the same services that he does from his, which are not commonly known as kingsnake or kingsnakes.

Read the stuff I am going to PM you. It's all in black and white. I would post it here, but it would put everyone to sleep. But anyone who it did not put to sleep would be amused at Jeffies claims, for sure.

[PAUL BOLLINGER]

Christmas came early for Webslave!
Good find Roger.

[KNOBTAIL]

mentioned in your post is correct ! With regard to Jon, I am very surprised.

I also want to point out that I dont know Rich, and my dealings with Jeff are only a handshake when I see him in Daytona. I have had discussions with Jeff on several occassons, but never brought up the BOI. I can say this much with certainty. He is a nervous guy, sweats alot, is a heavy smoker, and in all likelyhood has this parinoid feeling that people are out to get him.

I also can tell you , that he has developed what he considers an empire that people respect and hate. When you see him, you can easily see why he is the way he is. His sense of insecurity becomes very evident. This is my impression of him. But I like him and think he is a good businessman. You and I both know that we would love to have the traffic he gets and probably the money that is generated from his site.

Once you hurt this guy, he never forgets. Once he is twitched the wrong way, he never forgives. He plays in his house by his rules, fair or unfair, if you venture into his domain, as right as you may be, he has people who will wipe you off the board. When you recognize this , you either play by his rules, or dont. Rich allowed people on this site to complain about Kingsnake. Rich also added some fuel by antagonizing Jeff with this Kingsnakes business. This site is the official Kingsnake, Jeff bashing site, and I think its a big mistake. People have a right to air their grievences, but maybe remarks about sites should have been placed outside of the BOI. Apparently, this did not happen, and now Rich wants to make amends. Their is so much bitterness there, poor business decisions by both, and such pettyness that this can never be resolved.

The best thing for Rich to do, at this juncture would be to stop communicating with him, let this arbitration reach its conclusion, and get away from Jeff .Otherwise, In the end it will lead to who has the deepest pockets, and as indicated before, Jeff does not negotiate, because he does not know how. JERRY TRESSER

[Blackwater Reptiles]

Personal feelings for or against Jeff Barringer and Kingsnake.com (Neither have ever "harmed" me in any way), would you not say it is possible, and perhaps even EASIER for persons to conduct business without having to resort to fear and intimidation tactics to get the job done?

I've never met Jeff Barringer. I (apparently) haven't attended any of the shows at which he has been in attendance. If I were to meet him, I wouldn't have much to say, because as I said earlier, he has never done anything to me.... and if he had, I wouldn't take it to the grave with me.....

I understand the need for rules on the forums and for classified advertisers. I understand being a monitor on a message board and how annoying it can be to deal with people on the internet. But, I also understand compassion, fairness, honesty, respect and the need for people to be able to leave a dispute with their dignity in place. If a "customer" (that's what you are if you spend your money there.... not a "subscriber" no matter how they try to depersonalize it) violates the "Terms of Service" then I believe they should be warned and coached to conform to the terms of service... the rules.... IF the "customer" repeats the behavior that is in violation of terms of service, then warn again.... this time a little stronger language is in order, and coach-advise the offending customer on the correct way to follow the rules. If the TOS violator can't conform, then REFUND the balance of the contract and move on with life. The "reason" (I like to think of it as an excuse) given for poor customer service is that they're too big, busy, and overworked to deal with people professionally, and courteously.... something I cannot and will not believe. It only takes a moment more to be polite than rude....there is no excusing rudeness....

So to come here and defend rude behavior by saying "it's his site and he can do what he wants" is feeble at best, and completely unacceptable at worst.... I know that Kingsnake.com is the most popular Herptofauna site in the world. I also know that the mighty can fall quickly. It is said in the business world that we must watch who we step on as we travel up the coporate ladder, as they're the same people we meet on the way back down. I'm not saying that Kingsnake.com is headed for a fall.... it seems that they can do anything to anyone that they please over there -FOR NOW- but someday the hand that holds others down may be looking for a hand up, or a hand-out.... and the more people in this business that are turned off by the bullying and intimidation, the less likely it is that there will be anyone left to turn to when the mighty have fallen.....

I bet that if you could get the "big breeders" that keep that site operating to discuss (honestly) how they feel about that site there'd be some heated talk going on.... It's definitely a love-hate relationship.....

Anyway, I don't know if I made my point or not... I had one, I swear.... Bottom line is that is isn't NECESSARY to treat people badly to succeed in business.... so why do it????

[JungleHabitats]

YOU hit the Nail right square dead center in the middle.While yes Kingsnake is for now a force to be reckoned with the day will come when as was stated in a Internet news article "The biggest reptile site on the net , run from there living room" will also be the loneliest has been sitting in his living room. I firmly beleive that a buisness succedsor or fails by how they treat there customers , while it may not be a overnight event it does play a large part in where the buisness ends up. I to would like for the Big names that keep kingsnake afloat to voice there opinions of his ways.... but as you said they wont for fear of loosing there accounts. Aswell if when he bannishes persons from his site if he were to refund there monies i think there would be less bad feelings but 90+% of them are done away with and he keeps right on steamrolling along over the rest.

Jerry you said This site is the official Kingsnake, Jeff bashing site, and I think its a big mistake. People have a right to air their grievences, but maybe remarks about sites should have been placed outside of the BOI

This may be true but however i dont think Rich is to blame for that as he has only done what he does for EVERYONE give them a fair and unbiased place to air/share there thoughts on person/s who have done something to be desrving of what has been said of or about them.Now how would Rich appear if he allowed people to come here and talk about people who have screwed another over over a snake, lizard or frog or some other items ... but then in the same forum NOT allow someone to talk about Jeffs & kingsnake. You know that if Jeff /Kingsnake is being talked about there is a pretty good chance that it is 99.9999% right. His actions have clearly shown that he thinks he is a GOD among us.And that if you dont play by what he calls rules and others call opression he will silence your opinions & thoughts.

[KNOBTAIL]

nowhere in my post do I defend any of his actions. My argument is that Rich has placed himself in harms way. Jeff may have reached the point where he may make it VERY FINANCIALLY UNCOMFORTABLE, for Rich. I dont put it past him. This business about Kingsnakes is just the vechicle that Jeff may need to persue litigation. Although I dont know Rich, I do know that Rich may end up having to defend himself in some kind of action. As you can see, its already beginning, and where it may lead, we dont know.

Secondly, although your statements may be correct as well as the post before you by Tom, its not an idealistic world. Ive indicated before that Jeff is motivated by money. He will take whatever steps are necessary to protect his interests. You people on the other hand are talking about whats fair and what is not, freedom of speech and everything else that really have no relevance to my complaint. Rich had no business in bringing Kingsnakes to the BOI, nor the REPTI site in flashing colors. Granted , it may be Richs domain, but The Disney people once sued the promoters of the Oscars on TV for having a scetch about Snow White. It was a harmless , 2 minute satire, but the Disney people needed to protect their image and product. They did not care if they were not going to be the "good guys", their products are worth money! And so is the name Kingsnake. Maybe you are right . In the end you may get your wish if for some reason, Jeff leaves and is taken over by a kindler, gentler business, but for sure, their are more tears shed for the answered prayers than the unanswered ones. Be aware of the fact that I have nothing against Rich as I dont know him, But I honestly believe he could have gotten bettet results had he taken a more silent approach than putting this tread on the BOI. JERRY TRESSER.

[JungleHabitats]

Ok on the page that Jolly Roger linked to i have been reading for what seems like a year now lol and came across these ...


1212.02(i) Section 2(f) Claim with Respect to Incapable Matter
If matter is generic, functional or purely ornamental, or otherwise fails to function as a mark, the matter is unregistrable. See, e.g., In re Bongrain International Corp., 894 F.2d 1316, 1317 n.4, 13 USPQ2d 1727, 1728 n.4 (Fed. Cir. 1990) (“If a mark is generic, incapable of serving as a means ‘by which the goods of the applicant may be distinguished from the goods of others’ ... it is not a trademark and can not be registered under the Lanham Act.”); H. Marvin Ginn Corp. v. International Association of Fire Chiefs, 782 F.2d 987, 989, 228 USPQ 528, 530 (Fed. Cir. 1986), and cases cited therein (“A generic term ... can never be registered as a trademark because such a term is ‘merely descriptive’ within the meaning of §2(e)(1) and is incapable of acquiring de jure distinctiveness under §2(f). The generic name of a thing is in fact the ultimate in descriptiveness.”). See also In re Melville Corp., 228 USPQ 970, 972 (TTAB 1986) (BRAND NAMES FOR LESS, for retail store services in the clothing field, “should remain available for other persons or firms to use to describe the nature of their competitive services.”).


heres the VERY interesting read


1215.05 Generic Refusals [R-2]

If a mark is composed of a generic term(s) for the applicant’s goods or services and a TLD, the examining attorney must refuse registration on the ground that the mark is generic and the TLD has no trademark significance. Marks comprised of generic terms combined with TLDs are not eligible for registration on the Supplemental Register, or on the Principal Register under Trademark Act §2(f), 15 U.S.C. §1052(f). This applies to trademarks, service marks, collective marks and certification marks. In re CyberFinancial.Net, Inc., 65 USPQ2d 1789 (TTAB 2002) (BONDS.COM held generic for providing information regarding financial products and services and electronic commerce services rendered via the Internet, where bonds was the name of one of the financial products offered under the mark); In re Martin Container, Inc., 65 USPQ2d 1058 (TTAB 2002) (CONTAINER.COM held generic for "retail store services and retail services offered via telephone featuring metal shipping containers" and "rental of metal shipping containers").

Example: TURKEY.COM for frozen turkeys is unregistrable on either the Principal or Supplemental Register.

Example: BANK.COM for banking services is unregistrable on either the Principal or Supplemental Register.

See TMEP §1209.01(c)(i) regarding the test for establishing that a term is generic.



i have to go out but will return to continue on this matter

[Roger Jolly]

Rich had no business in bringing Kingsnakes to the BOI


Oh really, Jerry???

Someone in the business is harrassing another in the business, attempting to cause financial harm and that is not suitable material for the BOI???

Yes, kingsnake makes a lot of money, and likely have deep pockets, but maybe not so deep as people think. What is his overhead running that joint? But whatever the financial situation over there is anyone thinking about where his money comes from? Why lo and behold, it all comes from all of you! So this bs he is starting with legal actions is being paid for with your money. And he is going to escalate it, because he has your money to play with. Are you all comfortable about that? You can go on smiling about making those sales from Jeffies site with your paid accounts and you can just brush off his power ego and now what he is trying to do against a competitor??? What do you all suspect his ultimate goal is concerning webslave and faunaclassifieds???

People go to kingsnake.com because YOU people are advertising there. Not because Jeffie is running that site. People will go to whereever you are advertising. That is not brain surgery level thinking. Jeffie sees this and other sites as direct competition for your dollars, so don't believe for a microsecond that once he gets faunaclassifieds out of the way that he will then sit back and be content about those other competing sites not also being a threat. This is now the front lines in a very ugly battle. And the winner might very well be decided by how you people vote with your pocketbooks. Cause yes, this is going to cost money on both sides. Maybe a lot of money. Who are you going to help out??? What will the results of your voting be and will you be happy about that outcome??? Or are you just going to play mister neutrality and you don't care one way or the other as long as you can still run your business???

But from webslaves side of this discussion, yeah, Jeffie has a lot of money coming in from you guys. There is a plus side to that to his advantage. That fact may really get an agressive attorneys attention. What is the standard fee in a contingency case??? One third??? Has anyone added up what they think kingsnake.com is pulling in a year? Think that might get a hungry attorneys attention if he feels he has a client with a solid case???

No offense, Jeffie, but you are leaving yourself wide open for this. If webslave decides to get an attorney to fight for ownership of kingsnakes.com, he just may not stop there with the ball. You threw the first punch, you know. You have now exposed yourself as a credible threat and strong measures may be in order to counter that threat. Are you prepared to put your business on the line in this??? Do you feel you could defend against a credible claim of damages plus many people who could be called on to provide testimony of the way you have treated them??? Judges and juries can be heavily influenced by character witnesses, Jeffie, and how do you think character witnesses will portray you???

Yeah, yeah, I've heard that song and dance about someone able to do what the heck they want with their own site, so gimme a break with that noise again. People have a right to own a baseball bat and can swing it around all they want. But if they use it to purposely and maliciously attempt to damage another person, then they run afoul of the law. If a prosecuting attorney can convince a jury that Jeffies actions were done in an attempt to inflict financial hardship on webslave, witnesses can be produced who will state that the majority of their income is based on the goodwill of Jeffie and maintaining their account on kingsnake.com, as well as character witnesses telling of the way in which they were callously treated, what do you think will be the outcome in court??? Do you seriously think a court will find against webslave when the only defense Jeffie will be able to come up with is that he allowed people the freedom to post about Jeffie on his site? Especially when the bulk of evidence from witnesses will certainly indicate that everything said was the truth???

Yeah some naysayers are going to say webslave had it coming because of his part in the conflict. But keep this in front of your eyes: this all started because webslave refused to delete a thread posted by Adam Block. Perhaps this was just a trumped up excuse so Jeffie could block a competing site from his, because he didn't have anything else to go on as a violation of his TOS. But the point remains about who and what started this open feud.

By the way, when was the last time many of you clicked on that Make a Donation button??? If webslave does need to get an attorney to defend himself and this site, do you think the money the advertisers are paying here are going to cover that? Just count the number of advertisers and multiply that times $25 per month. How far do you think that is going to go? If he decides that he is just tired of putting out the time and money to give this site to you, are you going to be happy about seeing this site just folded up and gone???

Do you seriously think that if faunaclassifieds and the BOI gets trampled into the ground that anyone else will ever attempt to do this again?

Think about it. You may have some choices to make.

Personally, I have several auctions on Ebay that I will be using that money from to make a decent donation. Christmas time is a hard time for people to look beyond providing gifts for their families, but I don't think webslave chose the playing field.

[JungleHabitats]

I will stand firmly beside Rich in any choice he makes from here on out. And yes i do have an account with KS but it ends in April 04 as of yet ( far as i know ) its still active havent tried to access it in several days since i have spoke out who knows it to might be closed now . AS i had stated earlier Rich will be receibing my hardearned money ( and trust me its hard earned ) when i am able to do so right now times are hard and work is almost NON exsistant where i moved to ( for the love of god i hope it changes soon lol) im in my last dips of the bank account so finacially im not able to contribute anything but moral support sorry Rich. YEs i will continue to use my account with KS as long as its available because i feel since i have it paid untill April i deserve that right to use my $ .I WILL NOT be sending another dime to KS thats for sure from now own when finacially available Rich will get what i can when i can. Rich knows how to be fair , and be friends with 99.9% of the people here and even the ones he is not friendly to he is IMHO still fair. He knows how to put buisness where buisness belongs and let whatever feelings he has towards a person or about a person not get between him and his buisness ways . Rich again i applaud you for everything you do & stand for here to the herp community as a whole.maybe you should run for President ? lol

[KNOBTAIL]

sooner, but you are wrong! When Rich posted his first thread, Jeff had not committed any wrongdoing. He responded to Rich because Rich was offering a domain that could potentially be a problem for Jeff. Whether you agree with that does not meet the standards for starting a thread on the BOI. Rich could have very easily put that thread into another area, but Jeff did nothing wrong. Rich also if I am not mistaken offered for sale on the BOI Kingsnakes, which really should have been placed in the "sales area of this forum.

As you are very well aware their has been a substantial amount of threads on this whole business of domains, freedom of speech, what a bad boy Jeff is, etc. This thread, most certainly brought out all the Jeff bashers especially since Rich sent Jeff an email looking to resolve matters, and received no reply. Why do this! What Rich should have done, was kept this out of the BOI, wait until some decision was made from the arbitration board, and seriously consider what his next move was going to be. Instead he just antagonized Jeff even more.

I find it ironic on the one hand Rich found it necessary to bring this to everyones attention and accept the 100 or so threads, and then send an email looking to smooth things over.

Now you must understand, I am not a Jeff croney, and I am not taking his side when he does whatever he does as this is not what we are dealing with here, but in this particular instance, where his family has legal representation, and he is potentially financially capable of making Rich s life miserable, he may just attempt to do that. THAT IS MY CONCERN. Rich, although I dont know his financial situation, does not want to enter into these legal staircases. Jeff on the other hand seems to be well oiled and has the machinery already in place for any contingency. If Ive told you once and 1000 times more, he will take whatever steps are necessary to protect his iterests, and if it means loosing some advertisers along the way, then so be it, because their are 100 more waiting in line.
And yes, the BOI is irreplaceable , and yes Rich has done a wonderful service to the Herp trade of putting people on notice about these thieves who prey on well intentioned people, and yes I love the BOI as well, and have been an outspoken critic on many occasions, but this is a little bit different, these waters can lead to some unforseen difficulties for Rich. A behind the scene approach would have been the better avenue to take, then to wear this badge of courage by letting everyone know, " look what I received in the mail"

And finally Roger, Rich cant even get the people who advertise to pay him on time, or even pay him. This does not happen with Kingsnake. Because people are running to insure that they get their spot of glory on Kingsnake. So please, if you want to really help Rich, the answer is not to go after Kingsnake, or Jeff Barringer, but to prevent friends and people whom you really care for, from hurting themselves financially in a quagmire that can lead to more than they bargained for. JERRY TRESSER

[WebSlave]

Sorry, Jerry, but the facts of the matter seem to suggest a different conclusion:

When Rich posted his first thread, Jeff had not committed any wrongdoing. He responded to Rich because Rich was offering a domain that could potentially be a problem for Jeff. Whether you agree with that does not meet the standards for starting a thread on the BOI.


JeffB does not have indisputable control over all domain names that may be a potential problem for him.


The domain name KINGSNAKES.COM was available for JeffB to reserve for nearly two years after he got kingsnake.com, which took place on February 8, 1997.
KINGSNAKES.COM was reserved by by John Organiscak on December 1, 1998, and was owned by John for the following 4.5 YEARS.
I got the domain name on May 29, 2003 in exchange for a debt. I then had it in my possession sitting in limbo as only a referral link to my own site for 5 months. In all that time, there was not a word about it at all from anyone about me having that domain name, my intentions with it, or any future plans I may have been entertaining about it.
I placed the domain name on auction at ReptiBid on November 12, 2003, which signified publicly that I was interested in giving up any title to KINGSNAKES.COM, rather than pursuing the devlopment of the domain name as an active site.
I received a copy of the ICANN complaint form which was sent from Austin, Texas on November 20, 2003. NOTE It does not take 168 days to do the paperwork and file an ICANN domain name complaint.


The details of why I used the auction board are explained elsewhere in this thread if you need to refresh your memory. Please note the detail that mentions that I had a FIRM offer for this domain name from Alex Hue, for which he made an offer for spontaneously, and without my offering it to him beforehand.

Those are the facts. You can make your own assumptions about the timing involved in the dispute filing. What was it that actually triggered the decision to file the complaint? Beats me.

As far as the suitability to my posting this situation on the BOI, I believe I am free to do what I want on my own site.

Alas, you all will have to decide for yourself, I guess, on what the definition of "wrongdoing" is.

As for JeffB able to make my life miserable? Perhaps you are right. Perhaps not.

[KNOBTAIL]

you are absolutely correct, its your site and you can do whatever you want. I guess thats what Jeff does as well. I am not here to argue about the domain but about "potential liabilities" With all due respect to you, this is exactly what Jeff is looking for, and these threads that are implicitly condoned by you are nothing but a possible prelude for further difficulties that you may encounter from him or his attorneys.

I dont know nor do you at this juncture, what lengths Jeff may persue this. Its a fight that even if you win, the cost may be substantial. I wish I were your friend to tell you , lets put an end to this right now. But their are fair minded people out their who seem to be egging you on, providing all the necessary legal mumbo jumbo, telling you about the terror of Kingsnake and in the end my friend, your on your own!

I dont doubt for a second that your original intention was honorable, and you had every legitimate right to offer for sale KINGSNAKES. No problem their. But how this gets interpeted is another story, and apparently their is a history between you and Jeff, and he just looks at this as another attempt from the owners of Fauna to cause more problems for Kingsnake. I dont know what the outcome will be , but I am a prudent man and maybe a bit overcautious in my thinking. But sometimes from good experience, and I am reflecting upon myself, these things can come back to bite you in the ass. I have the marks to prove it. I dont want that to happen to you. A loyal participant. JERRY

[JungleHabitats]

i think sometimes David needs to stand up to a " goliath" figure. With that i mean that if Rich genuinely(sp) feels he has something to go one and thinks its worth his effort to do so its worth it to him . I think i can speak for Rich in saying that NOT ONE SINGLE person here is forcing his hand or anything we say will make him pursue somthing he doesnt want to. If a person or persons back down from evey "big name out in the world the world will be a monoply driven system and that would inturn oppress all of the " smaller guys" and would cause the big name people to think with intimidation they will have no challengers. of anything that the big names want to keep us or you from having. Ithink sometimes we a humans will only take so much pushing into a corner before we decide to stand up for ourselves.And yes the arguement could be both Rich and jeff feel there in a corner and both want to be right . onething for sure SOMEONE will be right if it goes 12 rounds no doubt there Maybe rich doesnt have what you call deep enough pockets to pursue this but maybe he does .. maybe he feels that if he feels that he is right and wants to defend hiself that he may do what it takes to get himself there i dont know im not Rich's bank or advisor. But i do see it as jeff maybe ligitimely worried for something we all may not truely know.

[Adam Block]

Message deleted because of excessive profanity - WebSlave.

[JungleHabitats]

Rich theres one one to add to the censor list lol

Adam lol u kill me .. in a good way

[Adam Block]

Well, Jeff is such a fargin ID 10 T (computer nerd thing, they call things an ID 10 T error) you can't help but be blunt. I don't know what got my message deleted all together however I know it had a lot of bleeps in it.

I also know that you can talk about pussy willows and riding an ass into the grand canyon without any bleeps so maybe that's why my message is gone. Not used in that same context may have seeming added new meaning to the words.

Could also be that Rich is protecting me from something cause I like guns but I guess we'll never know...

MuuuuHahahahahaha Muuuuhahahahahaaaa

Naw just playing, need to take the BOI a little more light hearted. This thread has made two things clear to me.

1) If you say the sky is green you can find some arse to agree with you.

2) Some people just don't get it. After 15 years (well maybe one but felt like 15) of beatings here this has suddenly clicked. No matter what! Somebody isn't going to get it and typing the same thing 75 different ways isn't going to help.

New motto: Be blunt and to the point!

[WebSlave]

Thanks to some help from a friend, I have another item to add to the timeline I posted in my previous message:

June 4, 2003 - OnlineHobbyist.com applied for a trademark on "kingsnake.com". That was six (6) days after I had "kingsnakes.com" transferred to my name. As of this date, the trademark has not been granted.


http://www.kingsnakes.com/pics/trademark_app01.jpg

http://www.kingsnakes.com/pics/trademark_app_status01.jpg

Oops! Sorry about that! I had those graphics images copied over to the new server and this flip flopping of the DNS pointers still going on broke the links.

[Blackwater Reptiles]

If I understand the previous legal code stuff accurately..... is it pretty safe to say that the application to "Trade Mark" "Kingsnake.com" will in all probability be denied??? And is it also pretty safe to say that, based on the timing of all of these legal actions, that this is a case of someone filing legal application for trade mark in an effort to be a nuisance to you (Rich Z.) ?

I cannot fathom a person being so preoccupied with giving another person such a pain in the neck, for the sole purpose of revenge for some perceived wrong (failure to comply with a demand that the infamous "Adam Block thread" be removed from Fauna Classifieds).... I would say that is is borderline paranoid behavior, that is if I were qualified to make that sort of analysis....

One last point.... a clarification on my previous comments directed at Jerry.... No... I do not live in a fantasy world where everyone is "kinder and gentler" in the way that they conduct business.... I do believe, however, that is is possible to succeed in business through honesty, integrity and hard work.... Perhaps people who lie, cheat, steal, intimidate and monopolize their markets may make more money in the short term, but (and it's a big butt) I have always believed that there is only one thing that cannot be taken away from a person... and that's your integrity. You can give it away... lose it by rolling around in the gutter with the con-men and women that this hobby seems to be overrun with, but there is no way that it can be taken from you. If you refuse to be a party to these kind of actions (the list is well documented of which I speak), then at the end of the day, you can pillow your head and go to sleep with a clear conscience. If a person chooses to treat others in any other way than that which it is right to treat others, then their rewards will not only be fleeting, but I am afraid to think of the fate that is in store for them, ultimately, in the end. Life is too short to try to push your way through it and not one person will give a darn about Kingsnake.com in another twenty years..... at least that's what I believe....

Shame on those who are too self important to laugh at themselves when they make a mistake, and who are too insecure to conduct business honestly and fairly without fear of somehow "losing." Life is not a game to be won or lost at all cost. It is an experience that should be enjoyed, not endured......

I said that.

[sychoram]

Hey Jerry, when you roll over in the morning does Jeff have arse breath??

Here's the bad thing about all this, no matter who wins it makes all herpers seem like whinning crying little babies. Who the heck would want to join a group they percieve to be a bunch of immature arse holes??? I don't know Rich, talked to him once on the phone, and don't know Jeff, but who cares!!! In the long run the only ones who will win in this are the lawyers and everyone else in the "trade" loses.

Rich,
I did find one interesting point in your discussion, are you telling us that you purposely list an auction that you already had a buyer for and listed the reserve too high to let anyone else get it?? What happened if someone actually met your reserve?? Who would you have screwed it that deal?? (regardless or intentional or not???)

Now, bash me if you want, but read this with an open mind and all of you will see that even the crazies like me are sometimes right.

On a personal note: I could care less if kingsnake.com or kingsnakes.com existed or not. If Jeff folds up tomorrow I haven't lost or gained a damn thing, If Jeff makes a millon dollars tomorrow, I still haven't lost of gained a damn thing. Now if Jeff wants to kick part of that million my way, my corn collection will thank him, my family will thank him, but I still wouldn't care if his site was there of not.

Lovingly
Big Jim
:D

[WebSlave]

I did find one interesting point in your discussion, are you telling us that you purposely list an auction that you already had a buyer for and listed the reserve too high to let anyone else get it?? What happened if someone actually met your reserve?? Who would you have screwed it that deal?? (regardless or intentional or not???)


Yes, that is correct. Alex Hue and I thought it would be great advertising for his taking over ownership of the new site, yet he also fully realized that there was a possibility that someone else could outbid him for the domain name. This was all fully known to him at the time.

Matter of fact, at one point I suggested that I would prefer to not even do the auction, because of the possibility of a bunch of emails and hassles concerning details of the auction, but Alex indicated that he preferred to have the auction take place. At that point he could have bought the domain name outright and I would not have run the auction. But, I was perfectly willing to give him a hand in this and help with advertising the domain name for him in this manner.

It was a true auction. If someone had bid the reserve price, yes whoever that was would have owned the domain name. Pending this slight delay in the plans caused by JeffB, of course. No one would have gotten "screwed", as you put it. Alex and I both agreed to this plan, and we well understood the risk an auction entails.

[sychoram]

Just checkin'. The statement set kinda funny in the pit of my stomach. I may have worded it wrong, but you have cleared up that funny feeling in my stomach.

Lovingly
Big Jim

[Inside_Out]

Well Now that all is said and done. I'm wondering if the auction had not been done. Which to me seems like a bad choice at this point. Would have all the B.S. over the domain name come up.

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.

This means of traffic that if I'm not mistaken was said to pull a laugh or two. Plus, Get Jeff to do what he did seems to me in a way delayed the plans of both people involved. Was it really worth it?

[Inside_Out]

Tried to edit the above post. Forgot my full name at the end.











Grady Robinson

[gmherps]

So, Weblave, was this all some big joke at Jeff B's expense?

[JungleHabitats]

While yeah i would say Rich enjoyed the thought of owning the kingsnakes.com name for his personell reasons i think more then anything it was what he said helping a friend out of a debt owed to him that otherwise would have made a heavy burden on that person to pay off a debit. Now with the original redirect some can say yeah it was laughs i see it as that and bringing more traffic to his site , if not that why even bother having the name to begin with ? Personally if i would have had the name i to if knowing how would have it redirect to my site just the same . Would it be because Jeff had the singular version .. no just because i think there are many people that may very well NOT yet know of kingsnake.com and that when doing a search for anything snake related it would showup as a site Then with the descriptive term of Custom built cages in it it would be one more avenue for bringing potential buinsness to my site. Now with saying that lets just say i owned that domain name i am in noway in competiton with Jeff other then i have a free forums setup now but my MAIN focus is on Boas and cageing nothing more the forums are for me to have something to do when i have nothing to do plain and simple . would jeff have done the same with me ? i think he wouldnot have done it because to him he doesnt know me from a hole in the wall Rich he does know and has a great deal of animosity for .

[Hues1]

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.

Its called testing the waters......prior to taking possesion of anything, wouldnt it be nice to know the realistic potential of said item ?

I co-own a couple of auto dealerships.....and I've never met a customer who didnt want to go on a test drive before they purchased an auto from us.

banner ads and other means of advertising (especially for a domain/website) are only good as the site it was intended to advertise. Kingsnakes.com is not a operating site as of yet.

I didnt even know kingsnakes.com was available til Rich pointed it out to me and his ownership of it. I at the time was on a domain leasing/buying spree...I leased 8 or 10 more to add to my stable just in one evening and was so excited at all the possibilites with these new domains that I decided to make Rich and offer on Kingsnakes.com also.

The auction was put up with the understanding that if my offer was beaten, then Rich would've and could've sold to anyone else. But as far as we were concerned, my initial offering was not going to be beaten. Why ? because it was a very substantial amount. I will say this also......Rich's main drive behind selling this domain was because his wife WANTED a NEW TRUCK this year and he felt it his husbandly duty to oblige. The offer I made him for kingsnakes.com would've helped him purchase the truck for her. Otherwise as it has been said already, he did not have any intentions of selling it. It was NOT DONE for the sole purpose of tweaking Jeff.

I will say this clearly here.....the auction was placed as a way for me to see how many "hits" it would get and how much attention it would draw. I checked the auction DAILY to see how many page views it was receiving. The auction was never placed with the intention of doing anything but that.

As far as I'm concerned, this was a BUSINESS DEAL, Rich had something I wanted.....I made him an offer on it, he accepted it, and in doing so was obligated to show me the potential of this domain/item.

In doing so...the auction was conceived. Was it done JUST to tweak Jeff ? NOT by a long shot, it was done PRIMARILY for my benefit...and as I've said above...I dont know anyone who purchases an item prior to "test driving" it.

[WebSlave]

I mean if traffic was truly what you were after to get the domain on the up and up. Why not run a few banner ads. Post it on all your boards. Heck everytime something is posted I go check it out.


Well actually I did do just that. I had banner ads running on all of my sites and I even posted a notice here in the BOI about the domain name being for sale. Once the auction started, I linked those all to the auction itself on ReptiBid.

I also had banner ads running on other people's sites about this action as well. ReptiBid had a BIG notice on the auction site's front page about this auction.

The last time I checked the auction stats, there were well over 3,000 hits on the auction from viewers.

I kinda wish now I hadn't deleted it all from my banner software, otherwise I could quote exactly how many impressions and clicks my own banner ads got on that sale/auction.

What more did I need to do?

[Adam Block]

I co-own a couple of auto dealerships

his wife WANTED a NEW TRUCK

Sounds like a pretty odd situation, you own an auto dealerships and Rich wanted a new truck for his wife. I "co-owned" a car lot many years ago myself. Very small but even I could have gotten any car/truck somebody wanted.

So don't tell me you deal Saabs and he wants a GMC cause I've been there and know you can get any auto you want in 3-5 weeks.

Don't tell me you live too far cause Rich goes to shows up north and for a deal that fit you both I'm sure you could have even met half way.

I don't really care and I'm sure there's an easy way to explain this but it's starting to look like one of my stories.

This was meant to tweak Jeff, why else put an auction up and post it on the BOI? That didn't tell you anything, heck, I looked at the auction 10-15 times to see what it was selling for. Even my wife saw it was for sale and looked. That was no measure of traffic! Only a fool would buy it was for any other reason then to tweak Jeff.

Also, if it was already sold to Alex I think a bad guy post should be started for Rich, I find it very selfish to fool people, get their hopes up of maybe owning it and just wasting EVERYBODIES time to check the "realistic potential of said item".

Whatever, I don't care but if it looks like a fish, tastes like a fish and smells like a fish I can tell you for fact there's something fishy in this story.

Alex, the more I think of it, the less I think of you! Since you own a car lot let's make it easy for you to understand. If I came in and made you an offer on a car, then told you I wanted you to list it on eBay so I could see the "realistic potential" would you agree?

No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties. It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale.

Rich, I just think this whole thing has made you look worse then you know. Shoulda left it at you tweaking Jeff, much better then you screwing with people to get an idea of "the traffic".

Let me ask this, what was the res price set at? I bet that isn't our business right?

[Hues1]

Sounds like a pretty odd situation, you own an auto dealerships and Rich wanted a new truck for his wife. I "co-owned" a car lot many years ago myself. Very small but even I could have gotten any car/truck somebody wanted.

Let me see.....I made a cash offer, so what I really should've done was offer lets say a truck which would've been MORE than my cash offer ( even at my cost ), then have to ship it from Michigan to Florida...$1100.00 via AutoBahn Transport. Or.....oooh.....oooh......oooh.....Offered Rich "credit" in the amount of my offer towards the purchase of this truck...ands thats if I had something he wanted.

Adam....sorry to tell you this, but unlike the lot you might've co-owned, we run a No haggle No hassle lot. You are familiar with what a No Haggle No Hassle lot is...dont you ?

The truck Rich wanted for the wife was in the 30k-40k price range even at my cost.....then you tack on the $1100.00 shipping fee/out of state temp. plate fee / temp. registration fee / and temp. title fee.... you end up with a truck that would've been less expensive to purchase locally.....because the markup on those particular trucks is ALOT less than the fees would've cost purchasing it from us. You are familiar with manufacturers H/B.....correct ? Because if you are, then you would also know that most FRANCHISED dealerships will work with you on pricing according to this H/B they might receive from the manufacturer....well the H/B for Florida Franchised dealers of this particular make and model are greater than those of Michigan dealers because Florida dealers SELL MORE and are allocated more....which you should also understand....correct ???

Also, if it was already sold to Alex I think a bad guy post should be started for Rich, I find it very selfish to fool people, get their hopes up of maybe owning it and just wasting EVERYBODIES time to check the "realistic potential of said item".

Ummm....Adam, please look at my post a little closer.......
The auction was put up with the understanding that if my offer was beaten, then Rich would've and could've sold to anyone else Did you happen to miss this part of the post ?

Alex, the more I think of it, the less I think of you! Since you own a car lot let's make it easy for you to understand

Thats great to know Adam !!! considering I just received this e-mail from you......

>>>>>Subj: Fauna
Date: 12/04/2003 5:34:24 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: adamblock@comcast.net
To: alexhuereptiles@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Hey Alex, don't take any offence to my post. As I said in the IM I sent you
something just doesn't sound right there.. You seem like a good guy and
I've heard good things about you not to mention you have a great looking
site. Something however just rubbed me the wrong way with that whole deal.
I like Rich but this crap doesn't sound right so I had to get that post off
my chest.

Just wanted to let you know it wasn't personal or out of a lack of respect.

Adam Block <<<<<<

Sounds like somebody playing God and the Devil at the same time....NO ?

No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties. It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale.

You're absolutely right ! You are an idiot ! Just for clarification purposes.....if you read my post in more detail...you would've also realized that if Rich would've been offered more money via the auction or because of it....then so be it. I knew I might've lost the chance to purchase it at my offered amount, but then again...neither one of us figured anybody else was going to come close to my offer.

It's a domain name, if you want a "test drive" have it forwarded to your site, don't offer it for sale

So...okay I get it now, what I should've done was have Rich use Kingsnakes.com as a jump to my own site ? correct ?

So...all the people who might've gotten to my site via kingsnakes.com.....might've also gotten the idea that I owned that domain ? correct ? thats a great train of thought there Adam...doesnt it defeat the whole purpose of the "test drive" ? So virtually what you're saying is that I should've had people thinking it was already in my stable ? Well....that might something you might do, but its a no no for me.

If I came in and made you an offer on a car, then told you I wanted you to list it on eBay so I could see the "realistic potential" would you agree?

Adam, do you really believe that something like a domain name which is only worth as much as what a person is willing to pay for it is comparable to lets say....a car, with actual hard parts, labor, setup, tool & die, fabrication, paint, design, and production costs that can be itemized ? Get real Adam.......show me where the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price is affixed on any Domain !

By the way, I have never posted anything on any of the threads where you were the subject...why because I dont know you, but I will say this....

the more I think of it, the less I think of you!

Toodles........

[Dragondad]

In the course of a business deal when the two parties involved choose a course of action(whether everyone else in the world understands or not) it is their choice. I can understand Alex wanting to test the hits, lets face it the hits are what a web site is all about. With Rich putting up the notices and banners he did help establish Kingsnakes.com in peoples minds(whether the actual buyer ended up being Alex or someone else). And since it was and auction Alex would always have the opportunity to up the bid if he choose to really really want the name. So I see nothing strange in the request or manner of moving this to auction.

Given the timing of the move to register the trademark of Kingsnake.com I feel Jeff B must have been aware of Richs ownership if kingsnakes. My thought on this and I believe it has been expressed by others is this: if anyone else in this world(except Adam of course) had owned and put up for auction Kingsnakes. com would Jeff had pursued the actions. I dont think so, I think it has to do with the ongoing web wars.

Now for Jerry, I hate to believe that the legal system is controlled only by the people with deep pockets (sadly it may be but I am an idealist). When potential suits are determined by a fear of the legal cost not the right and wrong of the case we have become a screwed up society. But then again what other business do you have to pay up front for the service and thats whather you win or loose. Anybody for a guarantee on the legal contract "I will win or your money back". Or how about pay me in chickens, pigs, corn or any other barter because I will represent you based on the premise that justice is blind to your financial situation.

And Alex, I live in Grand Rapids, and am looking for a auto(seriously) maybe we can make a package deal buy one car and fill the back seat or bed with ball pythons...(joking). Or maybe something comes to mind about car salesmen and snakes.....

[KNOBTAIL]

this is a screwed up society. But the fact remains, money will buy the best that the best have to offer. I can appreciate your idealistic values, everybody does, but until you enter the legal system you begin to realize that its not about right or wrong. Depending upon whom you are litigating, its very easy to get brused to the bone. These things usually start out simple, but the deeper one gets , the greater the expense. The question really is how far is Jeff willing to take this? What additional persuits will he take from that starting point. ?

You can plainly see, that if Jeff were to loose in arbitration, would he drop any further persuits ? Your post certainly has merit, but ideals are left for the philosophers, and I choose not to follow that path. My approach is more Machievellian. JERRY TRESSER

[dwedeking]

Site traffic for a community based website is highly dependent upon public opinion. Both websites are community based websites. KS is more dependent upon it's traffic as there is no substantial revenue from sale of products or services other than the advertising. This site is much more cost effective to run as my impression is there is not a "staff" behind the scenes that must be supported financially.

While I agree that the legal system is skewed to those that can afford to tie up others in litigation, afford to hire more able lawyers you must at least come close on your legal arguments. Registering for a trademark after the question arises is not even close. By a long shot.

While it is impossible to determine what the true intent was with the auction (though everyone has opinions one way or the other) and the purpose of owning kingsnakes.com it did serve the purpose of goading JeffB into making a public display of himself. Rich is an advantage here in that he seems to know exactly which buttons to push on JeffB (so therefore has control of the situation) and also has the luxury of not having to win, he only has to not lose. Public opinion is an irrational creature and while people as a whole do like to back a winner everyone laughs at the joker. So while people may still support KS.com while it's on top (delivering a viable community, pushing sales for advertisers etc) the draconian actions that are laughable and silly will erode any long term support, which will be fatal if JeffB ever needs to turn the site around (for example if he were to lose the ability to deliver to advertisers).

[WebSlave]

Let me ask this, what was the res price set at? I bet that isn't our business right?


Yes, Adam, you are right. It is no one else's business. The seller of an auction can optionally disclose this figure, but it is certainly not an obligation.

I have engaged in more auctions then I can remember, and I think I am fully conversant with the rules, standards, and obligations involved. I even ran an auction board for a period of time, so this knowledge was handy to have in order to effectively manage the use of that site by the people utilizing it.

A reserve price in an auction is that price set where the seller is not obligated to sell the item to anyone whom does not meet that minimum level. It is done ALL of the time in auctions. Check Ebay and see how many of the auctions have reserve prices on them. There is nothing I did that is inconsistent with the rules of engagement in an auction. If someone had met my reserve price, heck it would have been a pleasant surprise to me, and likely an unpleasant surprise to Alex, but I would have been obligated to sell the domain to the person who won the auction. Alex knew the ground rules in this and was prepared for this eventuality.


No, you would say I was an idiot! It would be extreemly unfair to buyers and just a waste of time at the expense of all parties.


Yes, Adam, perhaps I would. You apparently believe that I put up the auction as a public service or in some other manner in which what I care what people would think about my reserve price really matters to me. Sorry, but that is not the case at all. When Alex Hue made his offer to me, I decided I wouldn't mind selling the domain name at all if I could get a decent price for it. Heck, who wouldn't? But I did not get that domain name with the intention of selling it. I got it with the intention of having it. Up until Alex made his offer, I really had no idea what I was going to ultimately do with that domain name.

Whatever....

The facts of this situation have been plainly stated and are here in black and white (or black and green, I guess), and your belief is not necessary nor required for those facts to remain facts.

Now the question is, did the advertising and exposure the auction provided work? Well I put up a play forum on there with a hit counter, and even taking into consideration that there were MANY lost hits during that abortive server move I did this past weekend, the site has gotten 1668 hits since 11/27, fully a week ago. Take a look at FaunaTopSites and determine the average number of hits per day that the majority of the sites there that have been established MUCH LONGER are getting and compare them with what KINGSNAKES.COM is getting right now. KINGSNAKES.COM would be rated around 52 out of the 258 sites listed there. Not bad, I would say, for a site that now has basically NO content at all on it. Yes, people are coming to that domain name just to see what is there.

[Darin Chappell]

I just want to address the question of the ethics of this auction:

The ONLY way that this auction could be construed as a bad deal is from the perspective of a buyer having made a bona fide offer. In other words, if Alex had made Rich an offer on the domain name, and Rich said, "Wow! That's a serious offer, but I think I want to set this up as an auction to see if I could get someone to bid against you and jack up the selling price!" then Alex MIGHT have a bone to pick with Rich . . .

BUT . . .

That's not what happened!!! Alex WANTED the auction to occur, because he was interested in drumming up interest int he site before he took it over (mission accomplished). Rich had a real auction on the offering of the site, and Alex merely put in the first private bid. If there were to be no higher bidders, no one needed to know what that sale price was. Rich stipulated the situation (that he had a previous offer) before the auction even started, and said that he had a purposefully high reserve that had to met if another buyer were to get the site.

Where is the problem??? I wouldn't have given Rich $2 for the name, but if Alex wants it, GREAT! If Rich could have gotten someone else to outbid Alex, GREAT for Rich!

No one got hurt, and no one was dishonest here. Everything else is just background noise, folks!

[Wilomn]

I have noticed an interesting, hmmmmmmmm, let's call it a phenomenon for lack of a better discription at this time.

Often times, and yes I've seen it in person, a person who cheats on a spouse or signifigant other is very quick to accuse that very spouse or signifigant other of doing the very same thing, often times when that same spouse or signifgant other has been nothing but loyal.

I have several times seen someone caught stealing accuse others of the same thing, often to the point of absuridity.

I have many times seen known liars accuse others of not telling the truth. Often times the accused were not suspected of anything even remotely related to falsehoods and yet these accusations came right out.

It seems that often times when someone is guilty of something, be it infidelity, or theft, or just plain lying, they are often times most vociferous in the accusations of others whom they THINK are acting in like manner.

Makes me go, HMMMMMMMM wonder why that cheater/thief/liar is accusing this guy of that.

Seems to be some of that happening here.

I don't see any problem with Rich or anything he did here. I don't see any problem with Alex or anythng he did here. I don't know why jerry can't just let it go with his speculations about how deep jeff's pockets are or why his OPINION on this is so much more valid than the people actually involved in the domaine and its eventual disposition.

Rich is a big boy and I'm pretty sure he can take care of himself. I don't think it will make a rat's whisker of difference to 99% of us who read at Fauna what happens with the name.

I fail to see any wrong here. Nose tweaking is not necessarily wrong. In fact if adam and jerry check their digits real carefully they may well find some Webslave snot on them. Unlike some he doesn't get quite so bent from it.

This whole thing is really out there if anyone actually thinks Rich and Alex did anything wrong or unethical. Ohhhhhh Noooooo, I used that word, ethic. Oh well, I guess it just goes back to the beginning of this post, those who think/do a certain way almost always think everyone else does too.

Consider the sourses of the disparaging comments here and you'll see what I mean.

Wes Pollock

[John Albrecht]

Seems to me, in my ignorance of course, that if Jeff B only sells services to the herp community via Kingsnake.com and Rich Z is actually in the business of selling snakes, then Rich should have a better chance of taking Kingsnake.com away from Jeff than Jeff has of taking Kingsnakes.com away from Rich.

I also think that if it's true that Jeff is the nervous type then he should be pretty much having a nervous breakdown about now considering the possibility of this backfiring on him. I also doubt he has the $$$$'s to pursue this very aggressively legally and he was probably advised to try arbitration as a safe alternative.

It truly is a shame that all this has happened. But it seems that this type of conflict is often a part of success. Jeff B and Rich Z are big boys in our herp world and the big boys have the bigger battles. At least one of those guys can't stand the thought of potential competition and I'm sure that Rich is just the largest target at the moment. But you can bet your sphincter that if Jeff somehow miraculously managed to sideline Rich that he would soon find himself at odds with the next biggest in line.

Take heart though, I seriously doubt Jeff B has any chance at all overall and I actually expect Kingsnake.com to ultimately implode.
And to help it along I have vowed I won't purchase from any ads posted on Kingsnake.com. I just can't support that kind of crap or anybody who does.

[John Albrecht]

Rich, I think that it would be a good idea if every time someone types in the word "bleep" that you substitute it with "JeffB".

[Adam Block]

we run a No haggle No hassle lot.

Yes Alex, I know the drill. You tack on $500-$1,500 and call it invoice. Then when you sell the car to some fool and say you're loosing money selling it under invoice what you really mean is with no hassle and no haggle you've just made $1,450.


The truck Rich wanted for the wife was in the 30k-40k-price range even at my cost..

Maybe you should read what Rich said. He said he had hopes the bid amount would get high so he could buy his wife a nicer truck. That left us thinking we were looking at a $8,000-$14,000 truck. Rich said nothing about kicking in another $30,000 of his own.


The auction was put up with the understanding that if my offer was beaten

Just because I owned a car lot doesn't make me stupid Alex! This applies given we know the res price Rich set on the auction. I assumed he wouldn't tell us because it was set at say $150,000! That fact would shed a different light on the auction and your above statement as Rich I'm sure made it so nobody else could even have a chance of winning.


Yes, Adam, you are right. It is no one else's business.

You started this post Rich, kind of funny you don't want to be forthcoming with the details. But heck, as you've said so many times, it is your site right. I mean, why should you have to follow the same rules the rest of us do?

Hell, fact is that if this is your site and you can have a set of rules for yourself and one for everybody else then why can't Jeff?

Rich, anytime somebody points that out you gripe about how the BOI isn't worth the trouble so if you can do this or that to help offset that you will. Well, honestly, either shut up with that garbage or stop whining and shut it down! Because honestly, a lot of people give you their time and you seem to have lost respect for that time.

<b>1) Somebody may have REALLY wanted that domain and started selling their reptiles or even a car to bid higher on it.

2) If you already had it sold you had no respect for any of our time!</b>

Here's your ad for the auction, doesn't really match any of what you're saying!

KINGSNAKES.COM - on the auction block! <p>
Yeah, I think I have gotten enough laugh mileage at this, but <b>when someone made me a very attractive offer for the domain name</b>, it got me thinking that maybe I should turn it loose and <b>let someone else</b> really DO something with that domain name.

<b>No telling what someone could do with it if they really put their mind to it</b>, and I'm way too busy with this other stuff to even think about it myself.

So I put it up on ReptiBid yesterday to see what would happen. The reserve price is REAL stiff, but <b>I'm not at all inclined to sell KINGSNAKES.COM</b> unless I can get some real money for it. One of the few things I have of value that doesn't need to be fed.

Anyway, take a look, and if you have the money, think about it. Could be a very fast track to getting your website on the radar that would take you a LOT of time and money to do otherwise.


Yeah okay that really fits what you're telling us. You let the world know in a of topic post because it's your site and you don't have to follow the rules cause the BOI doesn't make you enough money that you're not inclined to sell it even though it's already sold?

You won't tell us the res price cause I'm sure it'll make you look stupid and this wasn't done to tweak Jeff.

RIGHT!!!

[Roger Jolly]

Adam, my brain boggles at the thought that you have managed to live this long without someone tracking you down and strangling the life out of you. That is all I will say on this matter, as many people probably understand what I am talking about.

John, in some ways I think you are correct. Once you get into court, there is a lot of jeopardy involved in a claim that is completely baseless and filed in bad faith. JeffB would have a tough time proving against an aggressive defending attorney retained by Rich that this was not all done with the intent to harrass and to have no other purpose but place a financial loss and burden upon him. I think the term is punitive damages, is it not???

Look at the damages that could be listed as having accumulated against webslave.

1) Attempt to eliminate this site as competition by not allowing people to discuss this site on his ks.

2) Damage webslaves corn snake selling business by refusing to carry his link (wasn't it stated in another thread somewhere here that in order to be legitimate you have to be listed on kingsnake.com???)

3) Damage the value of domain names being reserved as investments. Lets face it, would you buy or lease a domain name that could not be typed into the forums at ks???

4) Damage of the reputation of webslaves serpenco business by implication of wrongdoing by being banned from ks. Look at it this way. If someone Joe asks who the best corn snake breeders around are, and someone replies with 'Check out abc.com, def.com and ghi.com', only to see 'Check out abc.com, [bleep], and ghi.com', how many people are going to assume bad implications in relation to that business??? Isn't Jeffie generating a lot of bad will with this type of action? And the justification for him doing this was what again??? Oh yeah. He wouldn't delete Adam's thread on this site. Wow.

5) Damage to webslave in the loss of the sale of kingsnakes.com. I think he could make a case claiming he reserve amount, since the auction was killed prematurely by the action that Jeffie filed.

6) Any expenses associated with the defense of the arbitration action trying to protect his legal and righful ownership of kingsnakes.com.

Question is, will Rich (webslave) pursue this? What sort of collateral damage will ensue? Remember when JoeP filed that lawsuit against Jeffie??? What did Jeffie do? Why he shut down all of his forums and displayed the lawsuit instead. This was a blatant attempt to get people mad at Joe Polanco. What do you think he would do if he got served with a lawsuit from Rich??? I suspect he might shut his entire site down and do the same thing to try to generate a storm of protest against what Rich had initiated. What happens if your business completely relies on Jeffie to survive? Rumor has it that Jeffie has offered kingsnake.com for sale for years. There were no takers. Maybe he is taking the suicidal way out, but first salting the fields before the new owner takes over. Are the wholesale bannings still taking place over there??? What's the purpose for that? Is Jeffie so emotional over this feud that he does not realize what he is doing and the legal quagmire he may have stepped into???

What would Rich have to spend in order to file his own lawsuit? Jeffie would have no real defense. And just what is kingsnake.com worth??? Minus all the overhead on people that would no longer be needed to work there if a new owner only wanted to use it for a cash cow. The money spent on filing the lawsuit would probably be a real good investment. My guess is that the lawsuit is probably being withheld as a defensive weapon. There is probably some reluctance on Richs part to appear to be the bad guy by initiating something like this. But you know what? I don't remember ever really seeing webslave get really angry. Maybe this is all still just a game to him. He may not even be going to dispute that kingsnakes.com thing at all, for all we know. I mean, why bother??? Jeffies having it would be like Jeffie having a syphilis chancre on his nose. People will always be talking about it behind his back thinking about how ugly the whole thing was. But it was fun dancing with that whore that night, wasn't it Jeffie???

Hmmm, maybe I should open up my own website like this and hope like hell that Jeffie pulls the same thing on me. I like the odds that would be in the court room, and I am not worried about appearing to be a bad guy. Not when it comes to money, eh guys??? I mean, business is business. Right???

Oh yeah, these are all my speculations and opinions. Wouldn't want Jeffie to sic his brother on me too.

[jenn_jeffery]

Originally posted by TheGhost
Maybe you should read what Rich said. He said he had hopes the bid amount would get high so he could buy his wife a nicer truck. That left us thinking we were looking at a $8,000-$14,000 truck. Rich said nothing about kicking in another $30,000 of his own.

Umm, no, not really Adam, not if you can read.....

I have been promising my wife a Chevy Silverado pickup truck for years now. Anything I get on that auction will be going towards my fulfilling that promise to her. So I am just trying to use a joke and an unusual turn of events, to make one good deed pay for another. posted by Webslave earlier, in the first couple of pages somewhere...

[Darin Chappell]

Adam, you wrote:

"...He said he had hopes the bid amount would get high so he could buy his wife a nicer truck."

OK, Adam, try to follow along with me here. I have 30K I have set aside to buy a truck for my wife. I would LIKE to be able to get her a 45K truck, but I haven't the funds. :idea: I know! I'll auction off a domain name I have laying around to raise the other 15K! Then I'll write to everyone, "I hope the bids get high so I can buy my wife a nicer truck," implying that, with the help of the auction proceeds, I can then buy her a nicer truck than I could without the proceeds.

Sound reasonable???? Yep, it does to me.

You are intelligent enough to know that you cannot flatly accuse someone who is known for telling you what he thinks (whether you want to hear it or not) of being deceitful, unless you have a rock-solid set of proofs to support your assertions, Adam. Really, how were you hurt by any of this? If you were not, and neither was any one else? Why bother with your tirades?

Finally, you wrote:

"That left us thinking ..."

Unless you have a mouse in your pocket, Adam, you really ought to lay of the "us" talk. Some of us understood what was going on from the very beginning of the auction. I thought it was rather clear what Rich intended to do with the auction. In fact, the only part I didn't understand was who it was, exactly that was the initial high bidder.

This is truly a tempest in a teapot, Adam. Not terribly Machiavellian of you, Sir.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

It makes no difference what the reserve price was. That is Rich's prerogative. I just had an auction the same time period for one of my domains www.ballpythonmorphs.net I have for sale. I did not get a winner on it probably because I had a high reserve price on it. When people would e-mail and ask I would tell them which probably made them not Bid. I had a reserve price of $5000.00 on it. Rich could have put a $1 million reserve on it and it would not make a difference. If someone had bid higher than the $7700.00 high bid he could have chose to sell it to that person at the end of the auction no matter what his reserve was. It was his Auction and he chose to keep the reserve high as to not loose anything and there is nothing wrong with that thinking.

[Chris Eaton]

i dont normally post on here unless it really gets to me so once again, im gonna say what everyone wants to say :

Adam, you're a dick.

[WebSlave]

LOL! Adam, you kill me. Where do you come up with your ideas? And when did you turn into Ms Cleo and feel you have the power to read my own mind?

And who exactly appointed you as the middle man in any of my financial affairs?

Do you want to know how much in trade value for those animals I paid for KINGSNAKES.COM?? Nearly $10K. Why do you think I was real reluctant to just forgive the debt without getting at least something in return? Even at that, John Organiscak was still reluctant to give up the domain name. Would I have paid that amount outright to get that domain name? Hell NO!! But things just worked out the way they did. But if I can turn that doman name into cash in the pocket, even at a profit, since when is this something that is unAmerican or contrary to what any business person on this site would do as well? Ours is a society based on Capitalism. So IF I could have gotten more for that domain name, with Alex Hue's approval and agreement about all this, then what exactly is it to you? As far as I knew when I started that auction I had nothing to lose, but possibly everything to gain from it. Alex felt the risk of losing out to a higher bidder was worth the advertising and exposure it would get if no one matched the price he already offered for it.

So I am supposed to purposely make the reserve price low enough so that someone could buy the domain name at a price they wanted to pay for it? Says who? As far as I know, the world just doesn't work like that. At least not in the one I live in.

If I come over to your world, can I call the local Humvee dealer and tell him he HAS to lower the price to what I want to pay? Bcause it's not fair nor honest of him otherwise? I walked onto the showroom floor not realizing how much those things cost! How grossly unfair.......

As far as the fact that Alex is part owner in car dealerships, so what? I'm not driving up to Michigan in the Winter for anyone or any reason. Even meeting him halfway would mean about a 12 hour drive. So why would this be preferrable to my just getting the cash, buying a vehicle here in north Florida where I could look over the options at my leisure?

On one hand I am laughing my arse off at your statements, but on the other hand I am at risk of having to give myself warning points.......

[rtdunham]

I don't know how to email you personally, Darin, so i have to let you know in this way:

after a poster wrote,

""That left us thinking ..."

you wrote,

"Unless you have a mouse in your pocket,...you really ought to lay of the "us" talk"

Darin, in the sea of emotion that's flooding this thread, that was a welcome respite. Not because it addressed adam: it was just one of the cleverest retorts i've run across period. Maybe it's a well-known one, but i'd not run across it before. Trust that I'll be keeping it in MY pocket for the right time to use...

thanks!
terry

[rtdunham]

so right after i award the "funniest" prize, rich comes up with:

"I am at risk of having to give myself warning points......."

this is better than a robin williams concert! cut the crap out of these threads, leave in the humor, and i'd pay to view!

peace
terry

[Darin Chappell]

Terry,

Well, the saying certainly is not original to me, and I'm sure that most folks have heard it used over the last several years, but I appreciate the kind words. Bonus points to you for using the term "respite" correctly in a sentence!

;)

[rtdunham]

hey, what about "retort"? I was on a real high-falutin roll there...
terry dunham

[Hues1]

you truly show your ignorance...although this has nothing to do with this thread in particular and I do apologize.....

Yes Alex, I know the drill. You tack on $500-$1,500 and call it invoice. Then when you sell the car to some fool and say you're loosing money selling it under invoice what you really mean is with no hassle and no haggle you've just made $1,450.

Apparently you dont know "the drill", when operating a No Haggle No Hassle dealership.....we disclose everyone and give copies of the actual INVOICE.
And when I say everything...I mean Mfgr's rebates, dealer cash,H/B, and any other incentives.
In another words...we disclose the dead nuts cost of our autos and set the pricing across the board for everyone based on the above programs.

Adam.....dont bother trying to think up something to reply with as I am done with converting this to yet another Adam Block is a.....(name calling).....thread as its pretty obvious that you're either very illiterate, have a very wild imagination, thinks everyone else in the world cant see in black white what you see in beautiful shades of the rainbow, and last but not least...if you can think it up.....then it must be true.

[HerpVenue]

Yes Alex, I know the drill. You tack on $500-$1,500 and call it invoice. Then when you sell the car to some fool and say you're loosing money selling it under invoice what you really mean is with no hassle and no haggle you've just made $1,450.
. Apperantly Mister know it all Adam who knows everything and NEVER EVER lies about anything.....he knows it all. NOT !!!

Adam, a normal car dealership operates the way you stated.
A no hassle no haggle lot does not operate that way.
Perhaps you should visit one someday. There is one right there in Columbia south Carolina if my memory serves me correctly.

1) Somebody may have REALLY wanted that domain and started selling their reptiles or even a car to bid higher on it.

That is great adam. Your powers of observation are really sharp.
And if the person would have met or beat the reserve price........they would have won the auction...they would have owned kingsnakes.com

2) If you already had it sold you had no respect for any of our time!

perhaps you should read again adam......it was not totally sold. They already agreed that it would go to the person who met or beat the reserve price. And if no one won. It would go to Alex.
aA little reading before you reply would be in order.

You won't tell us the res price cause I'm sure it'll make you look stupid and this wasn't done to tweak Jeff.

RIGHT!!!

OOOOHHHH OOOHHH I got a beautiful response for this.
You won't tell us what really happened to that albino ball python that you TOTALLY LIED about. Because it will make you look STUPID


all of a sudden adam wants everyone to disclose things they really do not have to disclose.......But yet he does not disclose things himself.



I weas gonna stay out of this thread......
But I see adam is once again doing the old......Do as he says but not as he does.

KINGSNAKES.COM - on the auction block!

Yeah, I think I have gotten enough laugh mileage at this, but when someone made me a very attractive offer for the domain name, it got me thinking that maybe I should turn it loose and let someone else really DO something with that domain name.

No telling what someone could do with it if they really put their mind to it, and I'm way too busy with this other stuff to even think about it myself.

So I put it up on ReptiBid yesterday to see what would happen. The reserve price is REAL stiff, but I'm not at all inclined to sell KINGSNAKES.COM unless I can get some real money for it. One of the few things I have of value that doesn't need to be fed.

Anyway, take a look, and if you have the money, think about it. Could be a very fast track to getting your website on the radar that would take you a LOT of time and money to do otherwise.


Hey adam,
what part of that post is hard for you to understand?
Like the man said......he is not inclined to sell it unless he can get some money for it? I can't believe you can't understand that part.
English is my second language and it made perfect sense to me.


Go away BLOCKHEAD liars are not wanted around here.

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Yes...Adam is a true "legend in his own mind". A Machiavelian puppetmaster extrordinaire who only manages to consistently outwit himself.

It's always amusing to see people like him confuse the fact that they can put a cogent sentance together with the fact that they are actually intelligent enough to have anything worthwhile to say.

In the words of a particularly wise and erudite man who posted a pearl of wisdom earlier... Adam...you are a D***!

[RichH]

After somewhat following this thread off and on over the past few days I have come to realize that Jeff Barringer has truely developed quite a site. Jeff's business has not only become his personal success but one that apparently has led many others toward some nice monetary gains as well.

Not only do I believe Jeff has every right to run his business the way he so chooses but Rich Z as well in asking whatever he wants for the domain Kingsnakes.com. If Kingsnake.com was not doing very well this domain issue would never have raised an eyebrow. The market will always justify demand which in turn dictates what one will pay for goods or services.

Get what you can for the domain as Jeff should not worry much at all. This thread has become free advertisement for Kingsnake.com. Looks like a win/win for everybody.

Things like this should never get so personal. Its just business, something that has made this country so great. The freedom to run your business the way you want.

Rich Hebron

[Dragondad]

This may have been covered previously or Rich and Alex can say none of your business..


Has the web site been sold? Since the deal was basically struck prior to the auction have the actions of Jeff B stopped it totally or is it now transfered to Alexs stable of sites.

And still waiting Alex for that car deal, have to buy one this weekend anyway might as well see what you have??

[Hues1]

"Has the web site been sold? Since the deal was basically struck prior to the auction have the actions of Jeff B stopped it totally or is it now transfered to Alexs stable of sites"


Everything is currently at a halt because if the arbitration.

as for cars....call me or shoot me over a e-mail

[aimee_s]

sorry if i'm getting this information wrong from what i've read so far....

but... did JeffB ban WebSlave from Kingsnake? And then WebSlave ended up having a kingsnakes.com address? and then JeffB got paranoid and complained?

how did you get banned from Kingsnake?

i'm still new to both websites so i don't even know what's going on - but i'm so curious! :D

[aimEe]

[Adam Block]

Adam, my brain boggles at the thought that you have managed to live this long without someone tracking you down and strangling the life out of you.

I welcome you to be the first:) It would be nice to get some of my stress out on the Jolly man, to be within the law doing it would be all that much sweeter. If you need the address shoot me an email.

And who exactly appointed you as the middle man in any of my financial affairs?

Um Rich, I asked what the res was. Don't really care about the rest of your money issues.

So I am supposed to purposely make the reserve price low enough so that someone could buy the domain name at a price they wanted to pay for it? Says who?

I have to side with Rich here, who says? I think he can ask whatever he wants personally! Rich, who said you couldn't ask what you wanted?

If I come over to your world, can I call the local Humvee dealer and tell him he HAS to lower the price to what I want to pay?

Who's world are you talking about Rich? It almost sounds like me but I didn't have an issue with your price so I know it isn't me. I asked what the res was set at... As a side note H2's are for soccer moms, if you own one, you're a dork!

I had a reserve price of $5000.00 on it.

For a .net domain name? Are you INSANE!!!! LOL, I think you'll be hanging onto that for awhile!

Ritchie Luna

Go funk yourself! You know, you're a coward, never have the balls to do anything proactive if you can't do it behind a keyboard so funk off!

Adam, you're a dick.

I've been called a lot of things here. FINALLY, somebody seems to know me! Nice call Chris! I see you've been talking to my friends. However, I'm also a huge @$$ hole, Prick, Rude, Talk too much and a few other choice words I can't really say in here.

<b>Conclusions I've come to</b>

1) Jeff B is doing fine, nothing anybody else in his shoes wouldn't do and I was an idiot for acting as childish as I did about my dealing with him. If I could do it over, I would but I can't so I'll just tell you now Jeff, I'm sorry. You're going to need good luck in getting that domain from Rich but I wish it to you!

My thoughts are that he's been funking with you this whole time and I'd get a kick out of seeing you enjoy that site after Rich pulled what I feel like he just did.

2) Jason, I'm sorry for giving you so much crap. Seems few people have the guts it takes to step off the line and you have them. I don't much like you or agree with you on many things but I'm starting to think you had some valid points so I'm sorry to you as well. You're one of the only other guys I know who will come he and say what he wants even if he's getting blasted!

3) People love to have their ears tickled! Love to be part of the majority! Well, I guess 50,000 years of evoloution keeps people from being an individual!


Flame on, not like a give a chit anymore.

PS Maybe I have finally lost it.. I knew I was close, I feel more sain now then ever but maybe that's cause I fell off. LOL Ahhhhhh how nice to be crazy, sorta has a freeing effect you know. Oh, no, I guess you wouldn't.

[WebSlave]

Yeah, Adam, tell aimee how I got banned over at kingsnake.com. Maybe this thread will help refresh your memory:

Having Trouble with kingsnake.com thread... (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10740)

To be perfectly frank, if I had had a crystal ball the day JeffB called me on the phone about that thread, and I could have foreseen all of the trouble you have caused for me and on this site since then, I have SERIOUS doubts I could have followed the same path I did that day.

[sychoram]

Originally posted by WebSlave
LOL! I come over to your world, can I call the local Humvee dealer and tell him he HAS to lower the price to what I want to pay?

No but atleast when you go to negotiate with the Humvee dealer you know what his asking price is.

Here goes, I have a buyer for my pet store, nice price, he agrees to let me list it on the auction, gonna set the reserve so I can make sure he wins.... sounds ethical to me.

P.s Adam is still a moron

[aimee_s]

Originally posted by WebSlave
Yeah, Adam, tell aimee how I got banned over at kingsnake.com. Maybe this thread will help refresh your memory:

Having Trouble with kingsnake.com thread... (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10740)

To be perfectly frank, if I had had a crystal ball the day JeffB called me on the phone about that thread, and I could have foreseen all of the trouble you have caused for me and on this site since then, I have SERIOUS doubts I could have followed the same path I did that day.

so you got banned because you were in a similar situation as adam? or he asked for help? hehe... i'm still reading through the 1st page.

it's interesting stuff i never thought of before.

[aimEe]

[WebSlave]

No Aimee. I think that thread will be pretty clear as to what happened, but honestly it has been a long time since I read it.

Adam - sorry that you have gotten so upset with me for deleting that foul mouthed post you made against JeffB. Amazing how quickly you can polarize from one side to another at the drop of a hat.

But remember a while back you were all concerned about trying to come up with a way to help me make some money off of this site? Charging that flat fee you suggested wouldn't work, as I explained them. Anyway I think I may have come up with a workable plan. It is not appropriate for this thread, but I want to catch your attention here and direct you on over the the FaunaClassieds Feedback Forum so you can participate in the discussion I hope to start up there. You can participate at least for a little while..

[DThomas]

Originally posted by TheGhost
You won't tell us the res price cause I'm sure it'll make you look stupid and this wasn't done to tweak Jeff.


Maybe if you re-read the posts its not really that hard to figure out. Maybe Rich set the reserve price at the amount Alex offered him. That way if the reserve was meet it was sold, for atleast the price Alex had offered, to the high bidder. Rich still gets the generous amount of money for the domain and anyone could have won it. Sounds very ethical to me.

[Adam Block]

<b>Yeah, Adam, tell aimee how I got banned over at kingsnake.com.</b>

To be perfectly frank, if I had had a crystal ball the day JeffB called me on the phone about that thread, and <b>I could have foreseen all of the trouble you have caused for me</b> and on this site since then, I have SERIOUS doubts I could have followed the same path I did that day.


Seemed to me you made a choice based on your own morals and the stance with the BOI that you weren't going to be bullied by lawsuits or threats into removing threads.

Your above post really undermines what you always say about the BOI. Are you telling us now that you would delete bad guy posts but only if it suited you from a money standpoint?

But hey, why be held accountable when you can say you got in this spot with Jeff for me right? Human nature is a beach sometimes.

Rich, I've watched you and this site for years. I went from not liking you as a snake breeder to having a lot of respect for you and your views as a person.

I HAVE NEVER, seen a poorly written post from you, I have MAYBE seen two mis-spelled words and many times have ONLY read your posts in a thread. They have always made me think or see something I didn't see before. So when you say:

Amazing how quickly you can polarize from one side to another at the drop of a hat.

This is untrue, if you emailed me asking for help with something, it would be done provided I could do it. Anything you've said to me in the last 6-9 months via email or PM I would NEVER go so low as to post in here.

I have respect for you however:

1) I felt what you did with Ritchie was out of line. I don't know the workings of your relationship with him but I don't think you kept your pet on a close enough leash. As he said with Neil, his gut was wrong and that wasn't the only time by any means. He's caused honest people a lot of trouble when his gut's been wrong and it's something YOU allowed.

2) I don't think because you own this site you can do as you please just as I don't think Jeff can. I think at this point you have a responsibility to the users of this site to toe the line just as you expect us to.

3) I don't know what's going on here with Alex and you and this auction but I don't like it. Your actions effect others, I find it very selfish to post an auction that others may or may not have a chance to win depending on the res you put on it so Alex could take it for a "test drive" at the expence of others.

I don't live my life based on money; sometimes it's about what's right and standing up for that. That's what you seemingly had done with Jeff and that's just what we all need to do sometimes.

sorry that you have gotten so upset with me for deleting that foul-mouthed post you made against JeffB

Nothing could be further from my mind. I thought it would be full of bleeps, didn't know the words that got through would and I'm sorry for that post. I keep hard feelings until I go to bed, that was a few days ago and it was forgotten before morning. If you recall the post even said I was willing to take the points from it.

As for the money, I think you should charge for this site. The time, work and energy you put into it is worth a lot. Screw helping people, first and foremost you have a wife, if you're going to take time away from her to run this site you should make money. If people don't wanna pay to use it, FUNK them!

My honest feeling, is that you are being played like a fool with this site! You have maybe 20-30 people here that are your true friends and would pay to use the site. I think the others would blow away in the wind if you charged. I get the feeling you already know this though.

Sometimes, life just sucks. The only thing I can tell you all to make us both feel better, is that I have to live my own life. That should be punishment enough in your minds to feel a little better about me and that's freedom enough in mine to be overjoyed I'm nobody else.

As a person, I'm a total prick and extreemly blunt. I guess the time for me to take off that mask is long overdue.

[WebSlave]

3) I don't know what's going on here with Alex and you and this auction but I don't like it. Your actions effect others, I find it very selfish to post an auction that others may or may not have a chance to win depending on the res you put on it so Alex could take it for a "test drive" at the expence of others.


Quite frankly, I didn't put that auction up with the intention of anyone liking or disliking it. I put it up there to get INTEREST and ATTENTION.

Affect others? In what way? If someone had illusions of getting KINGSNAKES.COM for $1,500 then they were living in a fantasy world anyway. I have stated in a previous message what the trade value on those animals for the domain name was. Do you really think the reserve price was less than that? So even at $10K, just how many people do you think would have bid even that high for it? Auctions priced outside the reach of most people happen all of the time. Lord, I have bid on more guns than I could ever remember that I never reached the reserve price. It's just part of the way the system works. You bid as high as you can afford, then if you still haven't reached the reserve price, you stop. It's not rocket science. And you don't lose sleep over it either. Did the seller already have it sold to someone? How the hell do I know? And why should I care? I didn't meet the price, so that was that.

Anyway, in my opinion, the auction was entirely reasonable based on all of the facts I had available concerning it. And I have absolutely no regrets over my choice in how to run it. Anyone else that does have problems with it will just have to get over it.

[HerpVenue]

My thoughts are that he's been funking with you this whole time and I'd get a kick out of seeing you enjoy that site after Rich pulled what I feel like he just did.
Who is funking with whom?
Last time I checked.....Webslave got banned from kingsnake because of Adam. I guess Adam has a short term memory. Wonder what really happened to that ball python. We will never know.....his short term memory has short circuits in it.

Flame on, not like a give a chit anymore.
Okay see you later......you WILL be back. After all we know you do give a "chit". So I am sure we will be reading somemore of your "chit".



Aimee let me tell you how webslave got banned in a real short and sweet story.

Adam block broke kingsnake TOS ON PUPOSE. Adam block decided to post about kingsnake here and whine. Jeff B did not like it and DEMANDED that Rich erase it. Rich would not erase it and he stood up for the (insert name here) adam . And so Jeff, after some back and forth stuff, proceeded to ban rich and all his sites. Then hid behind his "oh he is competition"
Adam to show his appreciation to Rich decided to make some wonderful posts to help the site along and give it some hits by making up a story. Well he was either helping the site get some hits....or he was trying to help his pockets by extorting an animal or two from NERD.
Adam Block made up a story about NERD. He made up a story about owning a ball python from Nerd. Back then we thought he might have been truthful. But something in his story did not make sense. It was not until recently that we learned the whole thing was made up. He did have a ball python die.......But everything else was made up.

[HerpVenue]

Your above post really undermines what you always say about the BOI. Are you telling us now that you would delete bad guy posts but only if it suited you from a money standpoint?
Actually what he is saying is he should have erased the bad guy thread you made about kingsnake. He should have erased the way you whined about getting banned.
After all it was YOU who admitted to purposefully breaking kingsnake TOS.

1) I felt what you did with Ritchie was out of line. I don't know the workings of your relationship with him but I don't think you kept your pet on a close enough leash. As he said with Neil, his gut was wrong and that wasn't the only time by any means. He's caused honest people a lot of trouble when his gut's been wrong and it's something YOU allowed.
What is it that he did with me was out of line? Maybe I missed it. Exactly what did he or I do? he gave me a warning point for calling you a blockhead. So what are you whinning about? Yeah I was wrong with Neil. In his case I followed more on what the detective said rather than my gut. If you look at the thread.....there is a part were I practically did a 180. The is the exact instance I went from following my gut to leaning more towards what the detective said.
So what is your point with the neal thing? There were two other times. And I hope you do not start insinuating I was wrong about you. Because I was 100% right. Your ball python story is a complete lie.

I don't know what's going on here with Alex and you and this auction but I don't like it. Your actions effect others, I find it very selfish to post an auction that others may or may not have a chance to win depending on the res you put on it so Alex could take it for a "test drive" at the expence of others.
I guess you still can't understand. He and the other party agreed to put it on auction. Rich put a reserve price of what he thinks would be fair. If someone won the auction it goes to them. If no one won it goes to Alex. Read adam. you either need to learn how to read......or you need to chose a different arguement. Because this one is weak

[HerpVenue]

PS
Go funk yourself! You know, you're a coward, never have the balls to do anything proactive if you can't do it behind a keyboard so funk off!

I love the way you could not come up with an arguement to what I said. So the above quote is all you can come up with. I do not need to go and buy a mop. At least not while you are around.

[John Albrecht]

Rich, I thought your gut instincts concerning Neil turned out to be true. I was leaning toward supporting him and later came to regret it. Did we ultimately find out Neil was not a liar and a thief?

Also, why does every major thread around here turn into the "Adam Block" comedy show?

:(

[Darin Chappell]

"Jeff B is doing fine, nothing anybody else in his shoes wouldn't do and I was an idiot for acting as childish as I did about my dealing with him. If I could do it over, I would but I can't so I'll just tell you now Jeff, I'm sorry. You're going to need good luck in getting that domain from Rich but I wish it to you!"

I find the above quotation to be extremely ironic in a sad, dissfunctional sort of way, considering that it was over Adam and his big mouth that the whole trouble between Rich and Jeff even started!

I have to say that I find the whole "I'm the smartest guy in the world; no I'm a jerk, please forgive me; I'm the smartest guy in world; no I'm a jerk, please forgiveme; ..." two-step that Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Block does very tiring indeed! The people who cannot decide if they want to be a good guy or a bad guy, a productive member of the herp community or a jerk are REALLY wearing on my patience!

You think that you're smarter than everyone here, so why waste you time with us? Why post here at all? Oh, that's right ... Rich has adopted his "no banning" policy on Fauna, and you've burned your bridges over at KS. Now it makes sense!

Just take off, Adam! No one will miss your inane ramblings or "oh-so-cute" observations anyway.

And, for those who think that everyone ought to be given a second chance to be a good guy ... This was Adam's third, if memory serves me right! Sometimes, whether we like to admit it or not, some people are just not happy unless they are stirring up junk for everyone else, and we would ALL be better off without them around!

:bluegrab:

[HerpVenue]

1) I felt what you did with Ritchie was out of line. I don't know the workings of your relationship with him but I don't think you kept your pet on a close enough leash. As he said with Neil, his gut was wrong and that wasn't the only time by any means. He's caused honest people a lot of trouble when his gut's been wrong and it's something YOU allowed.


What was it that webslave did with me? I don't know about it...apperantly you do. So please tell me.



He's caused honest people a lot of trouble when his gut's been wrong and it's something YOU allowed
Can you name who these honest people are?

Matthew Martin- I just showed that he and the other guy were posting from the same IP. They had the same pictures. Then Matt unknowingly responded under the other guys account. But they have been proven to be different people. And I was wrong.
Was there anyone else? He understands that I just pointed out to people the obvious. He understands that he has made mistakes in the past and was under my watchful eye.

Gabriel Finch.- way to go on giving a bad guy a way out. Now he is going around pretending someone stole his identity and ripped off other people. The money just accidentally got sent to him.

anyone else adam?

then there is Neil. - That whole story is not even over yet I do not think. They have not found the guy yet. So me saying I was wrong could be a bit premature.

Anyone else Adam?
Jesse Underhill - And his other five personalities. shoot he does not count.....because I was right.

anyone else Adam?
Adam Block - oh wait he does not count. He is ABSOLUTELY NOT "innocent".


Come on Adam name these so called honest people that I have harmed.

[carl3]

I can NOT believe how long this thread is...I only read the 1st few pages and WOW. Does the guy that owns kingsnake (Jeff B) sell anything on his website? If so, what is his screen name? I never even knew who he was. Also, I never see stuff for sale by him, just others selling...just curious.

I use both sites equally and have done so for awhile. BUT this site offers far more freedom of speech. I had posts on kingsnake.com deleted for no other reason than mentioning Rich's site. I thought it was a fad that would pass...but now its just a pain in the butt.

One final thought, website aside, I have 3 corns from Rich AND I will gladly buy from him again without second thought since the corns are simply awesome quality. I have been screwed over many times by many people in the 10 years + I have been into herps (even by some that have 'good guy' posts on here) BUT the fact is that I would probably have been screwed over even more had I not read posts on this site about bad people.

JM2cents
carl3, jason

[JungleHabitats]

Jeff B sells a "service"

Im not even sure if he even owns a reptile or not ( i could be wrong)

KS is more/less a online herp show he allows "vendors" to set up for afee to sell there goods and nothing more and alot less

[carl3]

I just got a warning for 'not posting my full name'
BUT I DID?!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT THE ?@$@#($*~

Is it just b/c I posted it last name, first name

carl, jason....here it goes again...will I get another warning?

After all the nice things I posted, maybe I was wrong about this site?!?!?!

oh well, guess its the last time i post here unless my warning is removed.

[meretseger]

Jeff B will once in a blue moon post on kingsnake under the name 'JeffB'. I don't think he concerns himself with the forums much anymore now that he has 'moderators'.

Erin B.

[rtdunham]

jeff was a big grayband kingsnake fan (not that he liked BIG graybands, you know what i mean) :)

He started kingsnake.com originally as a forum for the grayband community he was an active part of. The site grew and spread, to other kinds of snakes and then in a quest to be self supporting, to other kinds of animals.

I don't know whether Jeff has snakes any more, I did hear from him that his interest in marine fish was increasing. (I'm in florida and can catch them in the ditch near my home--mollies--or when we go to the beach--puffers, etc.).

I find considerable value on the kingsnake forums and don't always enjoy the non-snake-related emoting that occurs sometimes in an un-moderated forum. My impression is that these forums have become moderated too, and i commend rich for that. The issue, it seems to me, evolved from moderated/no moderation ("free speech!!!!!) to different versions of moderation, and that's reasonable progress.

The hard part is having friends in both communities and having this strange wall between them, a wall built in part because some people chose to see how far they could go, even to boast that they were going to see what it wouild take to get themselves kicked off ks. I don't want someone coming to my home to see how much it will take to get kicked out of my yard, and i don't want people with that attitude in the movie theatre I visit or the restaurant I'm eating in. So I guess the next step is that at least a few of them took their whining to this forum instead, and went beyond that to arguably slandering their opponents (you've seen the posts here, it's not THAT hard to imagine that could have happened, is it?) :)

Anyway, if the guys I wished thrown out of my yard, or out of the theatre, then wanted to gather in my friend's yard to badmouth/slander me, I guess I'd consider that neighbor wasn't my friend any more, and I might say, "well, then you're not welcome in my yard any more." Sometimes relationships are broken by what seem like inconsequential first steps that grow more and more out of control, and i think that may be as good an explanation as any other of what happened here. Rich, am i way off base? I certainly don't mean to be.

peace,out
terry

[JungleHabitats]

Dont sweat the small stuff

however i might be wrong but i doubt the point will be removed . But from your previous post it did appear that the person posting had signed the name of Carl3 , Jason casuing it to appear as two names in the ending.

also your above post still didnt have the full name in it
its easy goto your profile and in the signature just type in Jason Carl ... it will updat all posts from you and all is solved .

The rules or TOS stated the use of full name is required in the BOI i am pretty sure .
Just chill out have a coke & a smile no ones going to kill you for havining a point or two ESP when your post wasnt a flame / or anything and the points can be viewed to see what they were for
look i have points ... and yep one was for no name once ... i had changed my signature and forgot to add name back OPPPS but no harm no foul ....

[carl3]

Its really not a big deal...I really don't care BUT I read in the rules: "Identification is NOT required for someone making an inquiry or posting innocent INFO." I made inquiries and posted innocent info AND I still posted my name anyway (Carl3, Jason). It just doesn't make sense how/why I got a warning literally 2 seconds after I posted.
Jason Carl 3rd (do I need to post my MIDDLE NAME too?)
J/K ... LOL!

[JungleHabitats]

I know a lot of you probably are used to using initials or nicknames or such to identify yourself to the internet world. I use it myself much of the time (Rich Z). But for THIS forum please include your full name, assuming that not everyone is going to know you. As an example of what I would consider appropriate would be something like Rich Zuchowski (Rich Z), or something equivalent.
that is listed right below the info you stated in your post found in the 3rd topic of the BOI

also from your points view you were given the same point back in april i think for the same reason knowing then why didnt you just fix the name in the signature ? dont rub the cats fur the wrong way just because its fun sooner or later you will get scratched or bit by doing so

not to be on your arse lol so to speak wouldnt it be easier to fix/ammend your signature to include your name rather then using up bandwidth by complaining about whats posted already ?
Rich's job is time consuming enough as it is w/o having to try to satisfy each and everyone of our needs here . Take the points , fix your signature and let move on

[WebSlave]

Jason, your post was not neutral. You posted some very flattering comments about me in it. (Thank you, btw!) How would it appear if I let you slide with what appeared to be a post with no full name just because you said nice things about me in it? It would look very biased, I would think.

It was nothing personal. The warning system in most cases is not so much a *warning* system as it is a *help* system. If gives me a very easy way to remind posters about the rules when they may inadvertently trip over one of them. And as mentioned, the point history is available for all to see, so as long as you don't have a long list of profanity, SPAM, threats, or the like, everyone understands that new members are certainly likely to not know all the rules here.

It is NOT intended to offend and threaten. It is intended to help everyone here to use this resource to it's fullest potential.

Does this explain the system somewhat?

Thanks.

[carl3]

its no big deal...alan is right..i'll simply add my name in the profile/signature section. sorry to take up web space. AND sorry to those for taking away from the theme of this thread.

Rich, feel free to delete these posts if you'd like.

Sincerely,
Jason Carl

ps...no need for anyone to reply since I am un-subscribing to this particular thread...thanks

[HerpVenue]

Jason don'tsweat it man.
I do not think of my warnings as warnings.
I think of them as a friendly reminder to either post my name or behave myself.
It is not personal.

[aimee_s]

wow a lot of funk happened with kingsnake. i never really knew about it until a few days before signing up for this forum.

i actually feel kinda bad for asking because it looks like a couple people may have gotten heated by my question :p but, thank you to everyone for filling me in and letting me know what's going on. and it really is a long thread! i'm gonna keep checking back to pick up other details that may have not been included. but thanks again and i'm sorry you guys got banned :erm:

[aimEe]

[Adam Block]

Webslave got banned from kingsnake because of Adam.

Rich, is this true? If so I would have to say that was stupid! You didn't know me from, well, from Adam! I was left thinking you were deffending this site and your rights and freedoms to do as you wanted with it? To listen to Ritchie would have you thinking Jason was right in saying you delete posts for me cause I like guns. Insane how little people understand sometimes.


Rich would not erase it and he stood up for the (insert name here) adam .

So he wasn't standing up for the integrity of the BOI? It was a personal thing he did for me?

If someone had illusions of getting KINGSNAKES.COM for $1,500 then they were living in a fantasy world anyway.

I think you're mistaking something, you're the only one bringing up the amount you were asking. I don't really care what it's worth! I just don't understand why you keep mentioning the value. The price has nothing to do with it. If I had an auction for anything listed I surely would end it if I'd sold it already and never listed it if it was sold and not mine to list.

I love the way you could not come up with an arguement to what I said.

I don't know what Country you come from Ritchie, but I don't have arguements, I'll let you keep those to yourself. You don't have an open mind, you're very much like a <b>Idiot Savant (An intellectually disabled person who exhibits extraordinary ability in a highly specialized area, such as going with his "gut" on the BOI)</b>, you're excellent at that one thing but it's not possible to get you to think or see anything any differently. So I'm not having an "arguement" with you.

Heck, Me, Nerd, Jason, my Partner and everybody else have dropped the Ball issue and I honestly think you may still be loosing sleep over it. Buddy, work on a little control!

[Wilomn]

adam, in regards to the nerd ball python, unless you've spoken to them I don't think you have any right to speak for them. As far as myself and I suspect several others, we just quit worrying about it. You have flip-flopped several times, and then wound up lying about it and getting caught.

It matters but not enough to worry over. You are the one who keeps reassuring all of us that all is well with everyone involved.

Maybe you should take your own advice and move on.

Or, maybe, tell that story in writing that you are so willing to speak. Write it in a word document and make it perfect before you post it. Then it will say EXACTLY what you want to say with no possibility of mis-communication.

Wes Pollock

[Adam Block]

in regards to the nerd ball python, unless you've spoken to them I don't think you have any right to speak for them.

Here's the issue with this site and it's "clicks", the above of course only applys to me right, none of the others doing the same thing? Or am I just the easy one to pick on?

Wes, you get off my stick too! Takes a real man to only prey on the ones he thinks are weak. I'd be more upset if you weren't just following the guy in front of you.

Hey Ritchie, when you emailed them what email did you use?

[HerpVenue]

you're excellent at that one thing but it's not possible to get you to think or see anything any differently.
How can I see anything differently. The only story you told was a LIE. Up till now you have not told the real story or put up your "proof" . So yes you are right. I do only see one thing.
And that one thing is your a LIAR.

And LIARS should not try to impose their "integrity" on other people.

I think you're mistaking something, you're the only one bringing up the amount you were asking. I don't really care what it's worth! I just don't understand why you keep mentioning the value.
Wow that is weird.
I could have sworn adam was the one asking what the reserve price was.
Now he is saying he does not care about the price.
Anyone else here think adam has multiple personalities?
I wonder if this is the personality that bought the ball python. Or maybe it is the other one. Who knows?

Hey Ritchie, when you emailed them what email did you use?
If they are not answering you......maybe because they do not like you. No one does. except you your wife and all your little buddies involved with your "get a free ball python scheme".
Maybe because they NEVER EVER sold you an animal but you tried to get a free one from them.
Maybe they do not want you to have their e-mail.
And if you are just trying to trap me.........it won't work.
Want to know why? No one can trap you if you tell the truth.

[Wilomn]

adam, if you pull your head out of your a$$ you'll see that I am closer to walking BESIDE Ritchie than behind him.

I've got to admit that I am rather tired of EVERY SINGLE THREAD somehow relating to you. If you've got soooooo many answers and sooooooo much good advice why are you posting it here where it is not appreciated? You got problems at home or something? You have now deteriorated, once again, to personal attacks. Seems that your past has caught up to you again and you just don't want to face the simple facts the Ritchie is so good at pointing out. The fact that I agree with him and have pointed it out to you a time or two, and shudder at this thought, without Ritchie even knowing, really seems to be bothering you.

I'm not on your stick, dimglow, I'm just sick and tired of your whining. Grow the heck up.

Wes Pollock

[HerpVenue]

If you've got soooooo many answers and sooooooo much good advice why are you posting it here where it is not appreciated? You got problems at home or something? You have now deteriorated, once again, to personal attacks.

I too was wondering about that.
He started picking on my home life.
But yet here he is posting away.

Maybe I should get that quote from adam.

The one that says he only comes here to post when he is depressed because it makes him feel better.

anyone know which thread that was in?



oh wait a second. This thread is about kingsnake.... darn

[WebSlave]

OK, this stops HERE and it stops NOW.

There are a couple of people on this site who feel they can drag any thread they want off topic about an ongoing battle between themselves. I am not mentioning any names, and not accusing anyone in particular. But if you even THINK this refers to you, then I suggest you STOP IMMEDIATELY.

Anyone who continues such an argument in THIS thread, or any other thread where an offtopic argument will be STARTED or CONTINUED will get to try out an ENFORCED suspension from this site. That includes anyone who may even REPLY to such a post being made.

Enough is enough. And I really do not care WHO is involved or WHO I have to suspend in order to get it to STOP RIGHT NOW!!

If the person you have a gripe with or about is not either the person in the topic line, nor the person who originally STARTED the thread, then you will be walking on extremely thin ice.

I don't care if it turns out that when the dust all settles, that I am the only one remaining on this site.

AM I CLEAR ABOUT THIS? :angry: :angry: :angry:

[HerpVenue]

loud and clear.

although I may have posted something somewhere else before I saw your warning

[sychoram]

yes jeff

[JungleHabitats]

All webslave is trying to get across to some people is that there constant fighting is doing nothing to reslove the issues between them and doing nothing to resolve the outlook of the forums in general.So from what i see he is going to solve there problems for them if they cant seem to do it thereself which I for one commend . NO one likes to come to read topics of relivance that always seem to take a hard left turn and involve a few persons. after a while it get to the point when you read a thread of interest and you see one post by a person you can almost bet the house on where its going from there out a pissing match .

The meat of this thread is arbritration between Fauna & Kingsnake over kingsnakes.com and was rapidly heading down a old familar road. So i for one would like to be able to come here to read NEW POSTS on the topic header that are relivant and interest me .(personally your snide remark would deserve a point)

[JungleHabitats]

n.p

[sychoram]

The point was that noone can resolve this problem except Rich and Jeff. All that anyone else is doing at this point is antogonizing the situation. It is my opinion that Rich and Jeff both know where they are going with this and really doesn't need our help. And yes it is always the same old fight between the same old people why because when you antagonize a situation, you tend to inflame those who were the object of antagonism somewhere else. And by the way, it got me 6.

[Inside_Out]

Well I can see where enough is enough. Webslave I can honestly say before I would let this topic get to the point of upsetting me like it has you or appears to have you with the off track disputes.
I would lock it up. Then there ia also the removal of the off topic posts. Then again that would probbably eat up most of your day. But thats My own Opinion. We all know what opinions are compared to also.

[sychoram]

Originally posted by JungleHabitats
The meat of this thread is arbritration between Fauna & Kingsnake over kingsnakes.com

The meat of this thread in my opinion was for Rich ((1)not webslave, please remember the two hat statement from earlier)to burn Jeffies Shorts. Otherwise Rich (1) would have posted this thread where it belongs, in the General Business section. That's the same reason Rich (1) placed the auction, posted the arbitration, posted the patent info. To top it all off I believe Rich (1) even stated he did this for a few laughs.

Where you see the (1) please insert the original statement marked as such.

[sychoram]

Originally posted by Inside_Out
. Then there ia also the removal of the off topic posts. Then again that would probbably eat up most of your day.

Yup and almost all of the thread

[John Albrecht]

The problem is not just between Jeff and Rich.

The problem with KS is between a very large number of people and Jeff. The problem between Jeff and Rich just happens to be more visible because of the enhanced visibility of their websites.

Even if Rich and Jeff were able to make up and start over that doesn't resolve the intense censorship and arbitrary enforcement of TOS over on KS. There was a huge flap over on KS when they started banning people for criticizing the new format, or has everyone forgotten that? They have on numerous occassions shut down forums because people questioned the fairness of screening posts and classified ads. The list really does go on.

Adam, Rich did not go out of his way to defend you personally from Jeff as it appears you stated. Rich was defending the principle of freedom of speech which you happen to enjoy here. If he had caved in to Jeff regarding your posts then he might have found himself in the same position again later regarding somebody elses posts. Rich would have done for anybody what he did for you out of principle alone.

[WebSlave]

Quote from Terry Dunham:

Anyway, if the guys I wished thrown out of my yard, or out of the theatre, then wanted to gather in my friend's yard to badmouth/slander me, I guess I'd consider that neighbor wasn't my friend any more, and I might say, "well, then you're not welcome in my yard any more." Sometimes relationships are broken by what seem like inconsequential first steps that grow more and more out of control, and i think that may be as good an explanation as any other of what happened here. Rich, am i way off base? I certainly don't mean to be.


Well let's look at this from a different perspective, Terry. Suppose those guys were over at your friend's house, got thrown out of there forcibly, and feeling your friend had done them wrong, came over to your house to talk about it. You have an open door policy along with your own rules for being there. Then your friend caught wind of them being over in YOUR house, and called you on the phone DEMANDING that you throw them out too. Or else YOU will no longer be welcome at your friend's house. You didn't have any personal gripes with these guys, and they were obeying the rules of being in your house. So you get placed in a very awkward position. You have to choose between upholding your own house rules for those guests, or siding with your friend based solely on his demand and his side of the argument. Basically he demanded you choose one or the other.

How would that sit with you?

[BallKingdom]

I hate to kick a dead horse here, but microsoft is suing a 17 year old web designer from Canada over his domain name. The kid's real name is Mike Rowe, pronounced micro is said fast. So he thought it'd be so cool to name his design company mikerowesoft.com

Microsoft busted a nut and e-mailed him demanding he hand over the domain immediately. The kid said no because of the time he spent on it.
so much time and effort into establishing my name, getting my business cards out and posting my services on the Internet. If I were to give up my domain, I would lose all the time and effort I had put into it.

So microsoft said they'd pay for all out of pocket expenses, 10$... He said 10,000, the wanna sue because they're claiming he bout the domain in hopes of getting cash out of microsoft.

Cehck his site, really funny. While I was reading about it, it stirred my memory back to this thread and I thought it was kinda similiar. A tyrant of a business, kingsnake of the online herp community, and someone innocent about to get screwed.

[WebSlave]

Interesting. I left the name of my attorney on his message board. I hired a specialist in this sort of thing.

Microsoft couldn't possibly win even one of the three points needed to be proven in arbitration, much less all of them (which is necessary to prevail).

Mike Rowe should hope it goes to court. He could make some serious money out of this that way. Punitive damages and full attorneys fees can be filed for in a case of abuse of process in situations like this. A good attorney would likely defend him on a contingency basis, knowing it was like money in the bank eventually.

Yes, I have learned a LOT about this stuff in the last couple of months. :dgrin:

[Roger Jolly]

Hm, interesting.

But what is going on with this arbitration thing???

I checked back on the status of the trademark application Jeffie has applied for and see this....

(words only): KINGSNAKE.COM

Standard Character claim: No

Current Status: A non-final action has been mailed. This is a letter from the examining attorney requesting additional information and/or making an initial refusal. However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has been made.

Date of Status: 2003-12-29

Filing Date: 2003-06-04

Transformed into a National Application: No


If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like to me that the trademark application has initially been refused.

Further....

PROSECUTION HISTORY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004-01-07 - Communication received from applicant

2004-01-07 - PAPER RECEIVED

2003-12-29 - Non-final action e-mailed

2003-12-29 - Case file assigned to examining attorney


It looks like the inspecting attorney took one look at the application and immediately tossed it back.

So Jeffie has filed an arbitration claiming a trademark that he really doesn't even have yet??? And maybe never will???

[JungleHabitats]

Thats the exact inormation i had found when this all started .From the laws posted on trademark and whats a "trademarkable" name Kingsnakes itself was a non registerable name as it was a "generic" description. Jeff was hoping to "STRONGarm Rich into giving him the name and hoping it would have worked. And the circumstances he cant say he did and then stopped because of any circumstances surrounding the actions of Rich using the name Kingsnakes as he did because the application was filed prior ... none the less it was a failed attempt to bully what he wanted to himself ... Thanks for the posting of that info Roger its rather amusing to see :2gunsfiri

[WebSlave]

http://kingsnakes.com/forum/pics/decision01.jpg
http://kingsnakes.com/forum/pics/decision02.jpg
http://kingsnakes.com/forum/pics/decision03.jpg
http://kingsnakes.com/forum/pics/decision04.jpg
http://kingsnakes.com/forum/pics/decision05.jpg

[JungleHabitats]

Congrats Rich ....... i figured that would happen once i found that he had applied and the terms of his name were .. welll shallow lol
none the less congrats again glad you didnt buckle to his threats

[WebSlave]

You know, funny how things work out. My attorney in this issue turns out to be a fellow gun enthusiast as well as a photography buff. He says that if I need any more help I can pay for his services with guns.... :) Just so happens that he likes Colt Pythons just as much as I do.

[robin d.]

now all ya need to do is get him hooked on corn snakes :D

[WebSlave]

Finding an expert on domain name arbitration, trademarks, AND interested in corn snakes would have been a pretty tall order. Two out of three ain't bad, I guess.

[W.Wedeking]

I guess it will be champagne and strawberries in the hottub this month instead of milk and oreo cookies ;)

Congratulations Rich (as if there was any doubt) :beer:

[Gordon c. Snelling]

Congratulations Rich

[WebSlave]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit001.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit005.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit006.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit007.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit008.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit009.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit010.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit011.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit012.jpg
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/lawsuit/suit013.jpg

[Ken Harbart]

And so, Jeff Barringer, in an egomaniacal fit, seeks to further divide the herpetocultural community with his petty foolishness.

Any shred of respect I once had for that self-centered #### is now completely gone.

[dwedeking]

Can we say "Counter Suit"? Time to take out those aggressions Rich and get that new SUV!

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I'm confused. I admit my entire legal education consists of Law & Order re-runs, so maybe this is normal in litigation and I don't know it~

But does page 8 and 9 offer a "Prayer" that Rich will will give Jeff $175 grand??

[Sasheena]

I thought one of the conditions of the arbitration was that they abide by the findings of the board of arbitration (or whatevertheheck they are called). I would think that if he made an arbitration board do their thing, then spat in their faces like this, they would not feel very much goodwill towards him.

[Sasheena]

Hey Rich, if you still have copies of those adverts for the kingsnakes.com auction could you post them. I would sure love to see how you used the SAME FONT (what were their terms... exactly similar?) as kingsnake.com's font. IF you could post it here that would be enlightening!

[Copperheadman]

Wow Rich,,I never had you figured for a cyber-pirate...sounds kinda cool!!!

[HerpVenue]

let me get this straight.
I can NEVER use the same font they do in my e-mails and private letters because it is against some law.

I can NEVER buy a kingsnake because the snake has the same name as their business.

Is he gonna sue all the kingsnakes in the world?

Do people who own kingsnakes have to change their animal's name to queen snakes or give them up?

[John Albrecht]

Someone should post these very "public" documents over on Kingsnake so everyone over there can also see what a moron he is.

[Intense Herpetoculture]

Goodness, and I was just about to to get another classified account on Kingsnake.com, well forget that. I am not going to have my money going to Jeff after this. Instead I think I'll put some banners on here and maybe some ads in Reptile magazine as well. I will continue to help develope this site in any way I can, and I think I'l just give up on Kingsnake.com as of now. Another sad day in the herp world, I just wish Jeff would get off his high horse and open his eyes before he sets himself up for a steep fall. Well, if you have to end up coming to Texas to settle this one Rich, let me know and maybe I'll take you out for dinner, it is the least I can do to say thank you for all your kindness and help you have showed all of us.

[Mustangrde1]

John.

Posting Public info over on KS gets you banned as a number of hot keepers just found out while trying to discuss the laws and venomoids. Then again KS has a long standing habit of banning so it was no suprise. I need one of those banned shirts now.

Webslave. Keep up the good fight I would hate to rename my kingsnakes to Queensnakes. Possibly a new name for a sight for you to look in to QUEENSNAKES.COM lol

Scott Bice

[John Albrecht]

I wish I had the resources to help.
I'd start by obtaining kngsnake.com, kingsnak.com kingshake.com and they all would have a link to this thread.

[Mercer Don]

Got this email from Jeff tonight. Guess he is sending it to all Kingsnake account holders. Glad mine expires in a month. He wont be getting my money again.






Below is a link to the lawsuit in Adobe Acrobat format.

http://www.kingsnake.com/lawsuit.pdf

We will have a prepared statement and a press release available
tomorrow and they will be posted on our kingsnake.com web site.
You may distribute this as widely as you wish.

[JungleHabitats]

Well i have to say that Jeff has the balls of a large baboon, it is totally ashame that he is so self centered to try this now , i would DEFINAETLY sue him back . i think that there would be something that could be derived up due to him not allowing you or your name mentioned and im sure it has cost you a few $100k's right ? well i would be happy to very soon start donating some funds into the fuana lawsuit account if you so choose one ? we all know you are a man we can trust with these funds to go towrads a very good cause !!!!!! I will be willing to donate a % of cage sales to the fund if you so choose to start one ( which i think would be a good idea since we all use this great site for FREE!!!!!)

[Randy T.]

Holy freakin CRAP!.. Jeff aka the kingsnake cry baby is a greedy self serving worthless sack of crap and I for one will not sign up for a kingsnake account unless he changes his tune drastically.

What gives him the right to try and trademark the name kingsnake in the first place? This is disgustingly pathetic.

Later

[Stardust]

If Rich decides to go ahead and fight this, and I hope you do Rich, perhaps this is a good time to really show our appreciation of this site. T-shirts are not a bad idea. Perhaps starting a fund raiser, sell an animal and donate some proceeds to the fund.
Anyone think this is feasable???? Up for it????

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I'm up to raise funds if we have too.

[Randy T.]

I am willing to contribute what I can as well... The only thing that would tick me off is that the funds, although helping Rich would be going into Jeff's pocket, that is, if Jeff won...what a jerk

[Stardust]

It's up to Rich on how far he wants to go, for now he has to do something, it is ordered he respond.
I look at it this way, in essence everyone who subscribes to kingsnake and pays their fees, which I understand has gone up, are paying for his fight against Rich.
Rich on the other hand charges nothing to come here and sell and next to nothing for banners.
I see some problems in what Barringer said for Rich but I can also see a counter suit as I believe Wendy mentioned earlier.
Although I do not post as often I still do read and appreciate what Rich has done here. I personally want to more than to just say thank you.
He will have to pay an attorney, travelling expenses, hotel, food ect. all that adds up.
IMHO we all owe Rich our support in anyway we can give it, win or lose, though I do not believe it will be a lose situation.
We should stand together on this.

[Snakebyt]

here is what you do...
wait till the 19th day you have, sell the domain to me for $1, when they find me, and i get the 20 day letter, i wait till the 19th day, and sell it to another member for $1, then he will have to find out who i sold it to and then go after them, give them a 20 day letter, on the 19th day they sell.... well i guess you get the point... there is nothign lillegal about it what so ever.. once you sell it , he can no longer give you any grief.. and eventually he will get tired of chasing people down... instead of sueing for stupid stuff he needs to work on those servers and get some more bandwidth so speed up that site...

[Double "D" Reptiles]

First, this is just too obscene and far-fetched to be funny.

Second, I like the idea of selling around the US as each new transfer would require re-filing and would cost him money. Of course, sales would need to be handled very carefully so as to not risk the off chance that Jeff could snatch up the URL for $1 himself.

I remember 6 years ago and various communications with Jeff at that time. It was during the period when TX was re-writing it's herp laws and Jeff had some hand in getting TX herpers to give input which resulted in what, at the time at least, seemed like much better herp laws there (was living in E. TX at the time.) This newest bunch of garbage doesn't sound like the same person. This sounds like it came from some slimy, odorous, dripping, syphillitic hemipene that needs to be surgically removed by a highly qualified vet. Perhaps a good lawyer will have to do the job on this one, but sounds about the same.

An idea for Rich...why not take the kingsnakes.com site and use to direct visitors to any and all sites with known classified ads where snakes of the Lampropeltis genus are known to be advertised for sale. Free to use sites could be directed with script or banners for no charge while any and all sites which charge users who post on their site would be required to pay a fee to have their script/banner added to your site. Imagine the e-mail letters you could send out stating this (Yep, Jeffy could pay to have his banner on the site to re-direct traffic there) and the reaction in the herp community. Heck, could even put Fauna 2nd or 3rd down on the list so that he couldn't scream that you putting it first was an obvious ruse to redirect your site to Fauna only. Would love to see/hear his reaction to this.

Anyway, not enough coffee yet for any more ideas or whammies. Later.

David

[Mustangrde1]

1st to all site name owners if he is successful in this lawsuit against Rich my fear is he would then go for Patent and Trademarks on other names like say REDTAILBOA, CHONDROPYTHON, CONSTRICTOR, SNAKES, etc etc. What will you do then he would theoretically be able to go after you. His Greed shows no end so do not discount this.

2nd Can his price increases be do to people being sick and tired of him and his sites obvious totalitarian and dictatorship views of its own members having voices and thoughts hence the amount of banning. People are sick of it.

When he started that site it was at a perfect time to do so and he had so to speak a monopoly over the sales of online of reptiles.

It used to be pre-heavy Internet access abilities you had to go to 1 to 3 pet stores to buy animals. Most people new little more then they liked the pretty animal and so bought on color or whatever without being fully informed of the species requirements. Now we have the Internet in full swing with some of the worlds best scientist and herpiculturist and herpetologist writing how too's and easily accessible through e-mail. Now people are more educated before purchasing a herp they have the ability to shop around and thus causes the sellers to try and be more competitive. In being more competitive vendors look for sites who charge nothing or lower rates for sales its only good business to list on a cheaper costing site then pay higher cost.

Now with so many sites out there that offer the same services if not better then KS is it a wonder Jeff is crying a lot and looking for more money and lawsuits to gain more money. He is watching his empire crumble and who does he have to blame certainly not himself {lol ego to big}. So of course his natural reaction is to take it out on such a vocal site with an owner who runs it with full knowledge that people have hearts and compassion and emotion and lets people air it out.

For myself I would rather go to sites where they are easier to navigate through and when on a forum/forums its simple to see postings and not have to go to every {re} to have to read them. I also would rather be on a site where my views an expressions can be made without worry of banning because I speak my mind. I would rather go to a site where people hold business and ethics higher then the dollar and when someone screws up has to face the scrutiny of their peers it makes them and all better in the long run. I would rather go to a sight where frauds are exposed and people are saved money before they spend it and get burned. GEE ALL THESE RATTERS SEEM VERY CONSPICUOUS ON 1 SITE. Damn im describing FAUNACLASSIFIEDS.COM

Rich Has done great things with this site not only is it informative and has a classified but it brings people together and introduces not just new members but creates friends. RICH THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART.

[John Albrecht]

Can't Rich delay this the way you delay appearing or paying a fine for a traffic ticket? Seems that the timing especially sucks for him to be distracted with something like this.

In regards to selling the domain name I think it would be especially helpful if he sold it for $1 to someone he knows that resides overseas.

[Sasheena]

Kingsnake has the following posted on their site now:

OnlineHobbyist.com, Inc., owner and operator of the popular Austin-based kingsnake.com online community, has filed a lawsuit in US District Court in Austin Texas, citing trademark infringement, dilution, and cyberpiracy, regarding the use of the domain name kingsnakes.com.

To review the complaint as filed please go to:

http://www.kingsnake.com/lawsuit.pdf
this requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader

OnlineHobbyist will issue both a press release and a statement on Thursday March 4, 2004, on the kingsnake.com web site.

While we appreciate and welcome input from our users, sponsors, and advertisers, we ask that if you want to discuss this issue publicly, you do so on the public USENET group rec.pets.herp. This is a message system that is not owned, operated, or moderated by any commercial entity, and is free of owner/operator-induced bias, moderation, or editing. We ask that you do not discuss this issue on private boards such as kingsnake.com or others, so that other web community owners and operators do not incur a legal liability from messages posted by users.

We hope that the public will withold their judgement until all the issues and facts are presented by both sides to the court.

Court documents are a matter of public record and will be available as they are accepted by the court.

rec.pets.herp may be accessed using Google's Groups interface at http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rec.pets.herp

Thank You
The Management
OnlineHobbyist.com, Inc.
--

Thank you for your patronage!


--------------------------
I find the part in bold funny.... they now have a link to this posted on their main page, but they don't want anyone talking about it on ANY public board, since of course they have such compassion and care for the legal good will of the owners of those boards.

So basically I read from this... "if you talk about this on any public message system, chances are you are going to get the owner in legal hot water"

Sorry Rich, for talking about it on a public message board. ;)

[thomas davis]

man what a jerk!hang in there webslave,i beleive i speak for all board members here"WE BACK YOU"if he wants to divide the herp community and not help it, let him dig his own grave then WHEN you win the case go fullout BIGTIME w/kingsnakes.com dont sell it build a site that does blow his away same fonts,layouts,everything excepet "mo better"im sure LOTS of folks(paying folks) are looking for another"portal" as they put it,to advertise in ,its called FREE ENTERPRIZE JEFFB!get a grip! for instance walmart-Kmart,,macdonalds,jack in the box,both clowns, sued,,who won?is jack the clown back?are there any other marts,besides WAL?,also JEFFB so you were the first to profit of off the herp community,call it united hobbiest thru the internet portal if ya want,but bottom line is you do it for self-profit,do you really think that you are the only one allowed to profit from reptile internet websites?,,get real,,,,and i LOVE "boi" and faunaclassifieds.com,webslave BUT it is not as catchy a name as KINGSNAKES.com,,,man i wish i had the funds i would get lampropeltis.com,kngsnake.com,etc,as many as possible and build lots of "portals"i would LOVE to be taken to court over a situation like this,ohyeah,,power to the people,,if you do come to texas webslave please let me know im in houston and would love to take ya out for dinner,,,,,,thomas davis ;)

[Seamus Haley]

Out of curiosity, is the fact that his initial, non-civil complaint was tossed out of any value in a civil case?

Meaning... logically most civil cases WILL agree with the rulings of other courts or the decisions of organizations with legal standing... One would think just showing up with the papers which stated that there wasn't sufficient evidence of copyright infringement from his last attempt would be enough to have the entire thing decided in Rich's favor.

If you are going to file a countersuit... do so for the cost of the plane ticket required to attend. There is a minimum amount of money that can be requested though, as this is clearly NOT small claims court. Since you incurred costs in having to defend yourself against what is clearly frivilous and vindictive, file for the minimum amount the court will allow if you file at all. I suspect that countersuing for an equal amount will not foster a reasonable view of the situation in the minds of the judge... better to handle it as if it was not Judge Judy. If you are serious about proving the suit is absurd, I don't think there's much that Jeffy can do.

I also think he's made a major mistake here... By TALKING big, he may have alienated a few people. By being proven to be a fool in court, the damage to his reputation and that of his website will spread faster.

The responses on the rec.pets.herp thread as of my posting here are kind of amusing too... Essentially they consist of people unhappy that their forum was chosen and viewing the issue as being the petty nonsense that it is.

[Double "D" Reptiles]

Rich (and others),

I've got an idea and will pitch the more complete version to Rich via e-mail. In a nutshell, it revolves around the precept that General Business Models are not individually owned/protected as intellectual property but rather are based upon general knowledge of business and thus public domain.

Kingsnakes.com, named after the most common name of reptiles found in the Lampropeltis genus, should become an "Information Gateway" for all things related to kingsnakes and the genus to which they belong. (Please note that Jeff B's catch-phrase of "information portal" is avoided by calling it a "gateway.")

Some parts of this model might cost a small nominal fee to users of specific aspects, such as script/banner advertising, but I think that everyone concerned who has ANY connection to kingsnakes/milksnakes and is concerned about the issue on Rich's side would gladly pay to support a site like I'm suggesting and, to make it even more hilarious, because of the nature of Jeff B's site and content available on it, a business letter could be sent inviting him to pay to have his Kingsnake.com site advertised and linked to from this "Lampropeltis ssp. information Gateway." Don't you know he'd just "shift" in his pants to get a nice, polite business letter like that.

David

p.s. Rich, give me a bit longer and I'll send you my concept(s) on this.

[Wraith]

Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Out of curiosity, is the fact that his initial, non-civil complaint was tossed out of any value in a civil case?


The arbitration was not a court of law so it's not like the courts would be required to consider or uphold that ruling.

Adrian

[dwedeking]

I would think that since it was by overseers of the domain name system and the main contention involves the domain name then it would carry some weight with a judge (but your always rolling the dice when in court). Didn't he process the trademark paperwork after the domain was aquired by Rich?

[Ken Harbart]

I think it's about time to contest Jeff's trademark application with the USPTO.

[KNOBTAIL]

in the drivers seat in this type of litigation, remains to be seen. The problem as I see it, is the wearing down of the finances involved. Who is willing to put up more money and how long is this going to take?

Apparently Jeff is looking to set an example. Not only in causing a major financial drain on Rich, but on anyone else who shakes the Kingsnake tree. Having to hire an attorney that specializes in these matters, having to be present and having to participate in federal court is not to be taken lightly. Aside from the punitive damages that could be rewarded, this may depending on how the wind blows, put an end to the BOI and all the other Fauna related sites by Rich.

It would be better for those interested in continued postings to refrain from attacking Jeff and find more constructive methods for helping Rich.

[JungleHabitats]

Just wondering here ?

[odatria]

I'm willing to keep my opinions of Jeff to myself. There is no doubt at all that much of this thread is going to end up being used in court. As much as we admire the fact that we have a place like Fauna to come and speak our minds, I think it would be in our best interest to keep a low profile in this. The reason Jeff doesnt want it mentioned ofer at KS is he doesnt want to give Rich any ammo to use against him. Right now Jeff benefits from each and every remark posted in this thread whether it is in favor of him or against him! The way I see it is Im not the one getting sued and Im not going to give the other guy anything he can use against Rich. This is not going to be a popular opinion, but it is my opinion. There are some people who cannot refrain from posting every day in a controversial thread like this. I would just ask that if that is the case, use common sense and refrain from calling Jeff some of the names I have seen in the last 2 days. Like I said we are not the ones getting sued. The livelihood of a great man is at stake here, lets try not to forget that.

Respectfully,

Michael Durbin.

[John Albrecht]

My speculation is that Jeff is doing this out of desperation. I think he has seen a decline in advertising as of lately and that is why he felt it necessary to dramatically raise the fees. He might feel that he needs to do this not just to enhance the growth potential of his site but to insure his very survival. I remember reading something in the trades about how Jeff's site was basically managed out of his house which is the only way that they could actually afford to do it. That doesn't sound like commercial success to me.

[Sasheena]

I do agree that coming up with all sorts of "schemes" to poke JeffB in the face can only backfire. I see it now:

"Mr. JeffB, how is RichZ deliberately trying to hurt your business?" says the laywer in court.

"Well you see," says JeffB, "here on his forum he incites people to dream up thousands of way to hurt me, hurt my business, and otherwise pull every penny out of my pocket" He points to the transcript of this forum "See here how they are planning to use KingSnakes.com to mimic my business and steal my income."

Judge/Jury think to themselves, "This case is screwy, but he does have a point."

As far as declining revenue, etc for JeffB, in a way he could say that RichZ is responsible... Because Rich has a site where the name kingsnake.com is NOT CENSORED, I prefer his site to kingsnake.com. It is JeffB's fault that his advertising dollar is dropping. The more he persists in ridiculously punitive censoring, the less desireable his site is. I was saving up money to pay for advertising on his site, increased photohosting, etc. Once he started [bleep]ing things, I realized my dollar was better spent on a company that is more mature AND that has a better ability/desire to grant freedom of speech.

[Double "D" Reptiles]

The real issue is based upon percieved loss of revenue from the URL, which was legally obtained and the lost arbitration. The 2 sites have nothing in common other than the close similarity in names and now being owned by individuals who operate somewhat similar sites, whether for profit or non-profit use.

First of all, regardless of how the one party may have registered the business in the state of TX, where the current suit has been filed, the name derives from the common name of a large segment of an even larger genus of wild and captive animals. This common name was first used by the scientific and lay communities long before either site owner registered their claims. While a business may register it's name and block all other persons/businesses from using that name, it does not, even in the state of TX disavow other parties from using similar looking/sounding/misspelled versions of said business name.

2nd, the never ending possibilities of this suit being found in favor of the plantiff opens up a lot of issues that the courts will never want to face in the future and opens up a plantiffs verdict for never-ending review and appeals. That said, I am not certain, but feel positive that similar suits have been filed before with or without appeals that have already been settled in the past. If a suit such as this landed in the US Supreme Court, it wouldn't get a favorable hearing due to the bad precidence it would set. Recent court rulings have shied from favorable outcomes on these things because they try to firm up the laws and not make them more open-ended to interpetation.

3rd, I firmly believe that by showing the already documented malicious behavior by the plantiff towards the defendent and anything/anyone associated with him and his businesses will have any halfway competent judge tossing the case fairly quick or have him/her listening to the plantiff dig himself deeper and deeper before handing down a ruling that will be nothing short of a tombstone on the grave. Read (and process) the entire chain of events and postings by both parties in regards to how things have been handled and you can see why I state these possibilities. Regardless of what is and is not allowed to be entered into evidence at the beginning, once the entire chain of events and correspondence is brought up in court, the whole mess will have to be admitted and, to be honest, while the views of outsiders (and their opinions) may not be favorable at all times to the plantiff, his own actions and reactions overshadow the defendents. Once this flow of information is allowed, it's over.

So relax. Censorship is the death of civilized society and the owner of this site has chosen to avoid censorship except where specifically called for by current laws as best he can. Opinions of others not under his control, provided they do not breech current standards of morality as defined by law, should be perfectly admissible, even in a conversational thread such as this one. The owner of the other site has shown himself, through past actions, to censor without cause in such a manner as to appear tyrannical to some (their words.)

If nothing else, this thread has allowed the positive exchange of ideas and caused individuals to engage in thought-provoking debate. There is nothing wrong with this. Besides, I've never paid for the other service but have used it for reference and once purchased from somebody selling there. I've used this site's services as well. Do I think one is currently better than another...sure. But it's just my opinion.

David