Todd Seadorf of Palm Beach Exotics.....

[DavidBeard]

A couple of weeks ago, Todd had advertised on KS that he had a female Borneo Blood python for sale/trade. I was looking for a female Borneo and I had some colubrids I wanted to move, so I contacted him about a possible deal....we agreed to trade the '02 Female Borneo Blood for 1.1 2003 Cal Kings and 1.1 2003 Chinese Beauty Snakes. I shipped first in the deal. He received the snakes on 11/21/03 as scheduled. They arrived in perfect condition. He shipped out the Blood on the following Monday. I had him ship the blood to a close friend of mine's house because I would not be there to receive the package. The blood arrived sometime in the AM on Tuesday. We do not know when the package arrived exactly because he used Airbourne Express, which does not have a sign-for-the-package policy. The delivery man just dropped off the snake....it was in the 30s here in Louisville, KY that day.....

Not a big problem, had the snake been packaged properly. Todd put the SMALL heat pack on the bottom of the box, where it could get no oxygen or release any heat AT ALL. The snake was WITHOUT HEAT for the whole time it was in transit from Palm Beach, FL to Louisville. Well, when my friend opened the package, she called me at work and explained there was a few problems......

1-the snake was ice cold, due to the improper shipping....still alive but COLD.
2-the snake had an obvious injury on its back due to who-knows-what.

Here are some pics of the injury and of the heat pack:

http://photo.redtailboa.net/albums/album76/Borneo_injury_2.sized.jpg

http://photo.redtailboa.net/albums/album76/Borneo_injury_1.sized.jpg

http://photo.redtailboa.net/albums/album76/Borneo_injury_heatpak_3.sized.jpg

I called and e-mailed Todd and informed him of the situation. Here is what he said in his e-mail (he said pretty much the same thing on the phone):

Tuesday, November 25, 2003 3:39 PM
From: "Todd Seadorf" <tourx3@bellsouth.net> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: Snakes on the way!
Status: Urgent New
David,
First let me apologize.......
As for the delivery, we both need to file a complaint with Airborne
express.
In the past with shipping the 1 heat pack has always been sufficient as
long as the snakes have gotten in out of the cold and not left on the
door step. This was an unforeseen issue on my part.
As for the respiratory problem, and the sore. When I shipped her she was
CLEAN, there were no visible marks on her, that I give you my word. I
can not explain how she got it. When I get any snake whether it be
import or CB I flagel and baytril them all, just to be on the safe side.
I also make sure all are eating at least twice.
If there were ANY problems I would have informed you in advance. This concerns me greatly and I am also VERY upset about this; I don't
like anyone to get shafted.
I hope we can work this out and I can keep your trust. I am in the process of packing to go out of town on vacation for the
Holiday.
Please let me know



Todd and Patrick Seadorf
561-433-8813
Palm Beach Exotics


This was the last time I heard from Todd. I have sent him several e-mails since then and he has not responded to any of them.

To top it all off, because of being exposed to the cold for so long, the Blood has developed a nasty respiratory infection that is being treated now....I am having to pay out of pocket for the vet expenses ($77.40 as of now). He has made no effort to repay me for the vet bills or make any kind of reparation for his mistakes.

I suggest that you do not do business with Todd Seadorf in the future.

[DavidBeard]

Well.....I just checked my e-mail and there was a reply from Todd. Interesting that he replies as soon as I mention posting about our deal here, isn't it? Here is the e-mail:

Wednesday, December 03, 2003 7:39 PM
From: "Todd Seadorf" <tourx3@bellsouth.net> Add to Address Book
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: Times a tickin.......
Status: Urgent New
David,
I have not been avoiding you. I have been out of town on vacation for
the holiday and just getting around to checking ALL of my email. 200
plus of them. I got your other message in reference to taking her to the
vet. You stated that your vet has you giving injections. Make sure you
do not give them in the same area, it can cause sores. I only give
Baytril orally. It is a little safer. Did he say about the sore? He have
any ideas. Again make sure you keep the heat at 100 plus. Let me know how Dec 4 goes. I will be out of town from Friday till
Monday, I have to teach a motorcycle safety course on the west coast.
Keep in touch

Todd and Patrick Seadorf
561-433-8813
Palm Beach Exotics

[gila7150]

Did the wound appear to be fresh when you received it? (kinda hard to tell from the pic).
Have you told him what you expect from him yet? (i.e. your animals back, vet expenses, or some other arrangement).
I'll agree that his shipping practices weren't very good and the snake never should have been shipped if it had an open wound.
So far, he atleast seems pleasant....maybe he'll be willing to try and fix this deal.
By the way, his statement about the Baytril injections is accurate (if that's what your vet prescribed).

[DavidBeard]

Gila, the wound did not appear to have happened in shipping. It had to have been present before he shippied out the snake, which he denies.

I have asked him to cover the vet bills, and he has refused to do so. He is blaming it on the delivery guy. I don't think he is willing to fix the deal.....if he was, he would have responded to me before today and would have agreed to cover the cost of the vet expenses for treating something that never should have happened.

[ldydrgn]

I just wanted to state for the record that it was my husband (Donnie Smith aka Morti) and myself that received the Borneo for David. David had called to ask whether or not she had arrived yet, and I told him that there has been no knock.... Donnie asked what carrier, then ran to the door when I told him. He opened the door and said, "I was afraid of that."

She was VERY cold so I had Donnie place her on my bare legs to warm her up while we looked her over. The wound wasn't real fresh, maybe a few days old. Donnie would have to clarify that point. Her breath was a little rattly and she had a small amount of fluid coming from her nostrils when she exhaled. When David came to get her, I instructed him to get her home and get her WARM! He then made a vet appointment for her shortly thereafter.

We are also the ones that are helping him adminster the Baytril injections since she is as strong as a horse and bucks like one! LOL Don't worry, we are experienced in treating sick animals and know all about Baytril. I am actually going to have David bring her here to stay for the rest of her treatment so as to lessen the stress on her. Hopefully we can get a stool sample while she is here so Donnie can check it for parasites. David was also given silver sulfadiazine cream for the wound and it seems to be helping quite a bit.

David, I hope Todd does the right thing and pays for the vet visit. Since he is out of town now, we will just have to wait and see.

[DavidBeard]

Well, it seems Todd has come to his senses. He has agreed to pay for the vet bills and is going to send me the $ via PayPal.

[DavidBeard]

Oh, and my vet echoed what Donnie said about the wound not being fresh, as in it happened during shipping, but that it more than likely happened a few days prior to shipping. This means that the animal had this injury and Todd failed to tell me about it. I saw pics of the animal before I agreed to the deal and the injury was not there.

[gila7150]

Glad to hear it....I hope the snake makes a full recovery for you.

[DavidBeard]

As do I, Chris. Thanks!

[Neil Gubitz]

Well.... to be honest.... I don't think the URI was Todd's fault.... because of this statement....

....David had called to ask whether or not she had arrived yet, and I told him that there has been no knock.... Donnie asked what carrier, then ran to the door when I told him. He opened the door and said, "I was afraid of that."....

It seems that either Donnie didn't tell Michelle or "Uncle Morti" what shipper was being used, or Michelle didn't relay that info to Morti in time.... it's obvious that as soon as Morti knew what shipper it was, he went right to the door.... at that point, it was too late....

HOWEVER.... there is NO WAY that wound happened during shipping.... it's already starting to heal over??.... It's very nice of Todd to offer to pay for the Vet's bill, but I really think PART of the Vet's bill should be incurred by David.... for the URI meds.... Am I wrong??

Neil

[DavidBeard]

Neil....the URI is without a doubt Todd's fault. He improperly packaged the box, so if the heat pack had been working, the snake would have been fine.

Also, Todd did not offer to pay for the vet bills.....he finally relented after I asked him several times and posted this thread. I think he just wanted to save face here. He only even responded to my e-mails after I told him I was going to start this thread.....too convenient if you ask me. He also did not tell me about the wound.....I have nothing to hide, but it sounds like he does. The animals I sent him arrived in perfect condition and were 100% accurately represented. Why should I not expect the same in return?

[Neil Gubitz]

I "sit" corrected!

Neil

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Originally posted by DavidBeard
Not a big problem, had the snake been packaged properly. Todd put the SMALL heat pack on the bottom of the box, where it could get no oxygen or release any heat AT ALL. The snake was WITHOUT HEAT for the whole time it was in transit from Palm Beach, FL to Louisville. Well, when my friend opened the package, she called me at work and explained there was a few problems......


David,

Not to try and justify him sending the animal with the injury but packing with a heat pack on the bottom does not mean it was not packaged properly. I package with heat packs on the bottom and sometimes on the top. There is enough oxygen to allow the heat pack to get warm when it is on the bottom. Also heat rises. I have found that shipping with the heat pack on the bottom(when they are working) tends to more evenly heat the box. Now I would say there is a possibility that the heat pack might have failed (which I have had a few fail myself) and that would not have been due to his packaging, But even if the heat pack had failed it is his responsibility to remedy the problem. Also you said the heat pack was small. Well the heat pack in the picture looks exactly like the normal 40+ hour heat packs that are sold and used all the time so there is nothing wrong with it's size. The ones that some people use for shipping that are the hand warmers are about half that size and only last about 4 hours.

[Neil Gubitz]

I knew I forgot something yesterday.... Rob is absolutely correct.... heat rises, and putting the heatpack on the bottom is usually where you SHOULD put it.... Were there airholes in the box??.... That could be the reason the box LOST all the heat.... Usually (in WINTER) you should use NO airholes in the box AT ALL and you should seal EVERY OPEN EDGE of the box, so the heat stays IN the box.... if you ship next day air, there is plenty of air in there for the trip.... I have NEVER had a problem doing it like that.... just something to consider....

Neil

[ldydrgn]

There were NO airholes in the box and the heat pack was cold! After puling it out and setting it on the table it began to warm up. How can heat rise when there is no heat?

[Neil Gubitz]

Well.... before putting the heatpack in the box, you MUST shake it up and mix the chemicals together, or it might NOT work.... or, it could have just been a "dud" heatpack, which does happen from time to time....

Neil

[Wilomn]

I have only shipped to cold states a couple of times but, I have always waited until I felt the heat from the pack before I put it in the box. I would think that a minute or two would not be too long to make sure it was working before taping the box up.

Between the old wound and the heat not working I would be very displeased myself.

I hope it all works out well.

Wes Pollock

[Neil Gubitz]

WOW!!.... It MUST be snowing "down there".... I actually AGREE with you, Wes.... ain't that a kick??.... lol

Neil

[ldydrgn]

I have a screen shot of the tracking posted below. You can see she had to go through OH to get to us in KY. She was in OH all night. According to Airborne she was dropped off at 10:40am. David called at about 11am and Donnie brought her in the house immediately following the call. So she was on our doorstop no more than 25 minutes.

David, please confirm the time you called and when I called you back if you can.

[Kevin3]

I had a Doctor's appointment that I finished up with at about 11:15 am that day and called Michelle to see if I could stop by (I was two miles away) and got to their place by 11:30am. The Borneo was still cool and I saw the wound and the box. The heat pack was still cold and Donnie was showing me how to activate it and after a few minutes it actually increased its temperature. So I am posting this as an eyewitness to the fact that the heat pack was cold.

Kevin Scott

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

We always wait at least 15 minutes before putting the heat pack into our packages to ensure they are working. There have been a few times that the heat pack has died short of the 40+ hours it was supposed to last, and also it only warms the package up about 15 degrees higher than the air in the box. So if the box was placed outside or in the back of a airborne van that had no heat and was very cold it would not warm it up.

We did experiments with our boxes last year and put a thermostat into a box with a heat pack. We then left it at room temp, put it outdoors in the cold, and then put it in the freezer to check. Well when it was at room temp the temp in the box only got to about 84 degrees, when it was outside in the cold it barely made 80 and then in the freezer it died completely until taken out of the freezer and the air in the box was allowed to warm. These boxes were all with 3/4" foam lining, plenty of packing materials and a 40+ hour heat pack.


Please don't think I am trying to shift blame on him in the least as that is not the case. That wound was not a fresh wound and if he did not see that when packing the animal when he must have had his eyes closed. All I am saying is that the heat packs are not 100% reliable to keep the inside of the box warm. Also depending on what the temps are and the size of the box I use multiple heat packs. That way if one should fail the other will be a back up.

[colubridman88]

I don't usually post on the BOI, and tried to obtain my own screen name but never recieved a conformation email. So i am posting under my room mates.
First of all, Todd is a good buddy of mine(As he is to many people). Every deal i have ever done with todd has been straight. Never sent me sick animals, or lied about anything. His job(don't know that i am at liberty to state exactlly what that job is), requires him to have the highest integrity. If he said the wound wasn't there before he shipped, i believe him. And David, you are very mistaken about the heat pack issue. I have shipped several hundered packages over the past several years. AND EVERY TIME, I put the heat packs on the bottom. For one simple scientific fact, HEAT RISES. I put mine right under the bag.
One more thing, when i am waiting for packages, especially ones containing live animals, i am looking out the window, listening for the sound of a truck. Maybe you friend should have been paying a little closer attention.
I think you are wrong about the airborne thing also. Every time todd has sent me a package it has been for guaranteed 10:30 AM delivery. Why did you even have the package shipped if you weren't going to be there. Do you always pass things off to you friends? If you want to make sure something is taken care of you should do it yourself. Don't blame todd because your friend wasn't looking for the package. Todd is a nicer guy than i am, i would have told you to shove those vet bills where the sun don't shine. Lets see a vet report that states the wound looks a couple of days old, looked fresh to me.
Tom Teasdale

[colubridman88]

K, i didn't read the whole thread. So the package was delivered at 10:40, how cold was it there? 25 minutes if it was cold enogh could be a death sentence. So the package was brought in AFTER a phone call to you was made? Thats kinda stupid. I still stand by todd. I think your friend should have been looking closer.
Tom Teasdale

[DavidBeard]

Yes, Michelle is correct that I called at 11am to see if the package had arrive. Also, I see what you're saying about the placement of the package, but every package I have ever recieved from anyone had the heat pack taped to the top of the insulated box. Also, like Michelle said, how can heat rise if there IS NONE? LOL.....He obviously does not ship much or if he does, he is going about it the wrong way. He had the blood for about a month, so unless he was blind there is NO WAY he did not see the wound on its back. The fact that he never mentioned it to me suggests that he was not totally honest.

We are also not "wrong" about the delivery time.....you saw the screen shot, didn't you, Tom? LOL, there really is no debating it....I was lied to and received a flawed animal due to negligence on the shipper's part.

Donnie and Michelle are VERY alert and I have no doubt there were listening for the package to arrive. The fact that they live in an apartment and have no windows does not allow them to watch for the delivery.

I find it very funny that you, Yom, are trying to relieve Todd of any and all blame for this. HE LIED to me about the wound....if it had happened in shipping, there would have been blood on the bag the snake was in and it would not have looked the way it did. I do not have a vet report stating this because I did not get one...the vet merely offered her opinion. You obviously do not see that many fresh wounds, Tom.

The fact that this is being debated greatly disturbs me.

[colubridman88]

Well, If todd says the wound wasn't there then i believe him. He doesn't lie. Especially about things as trivial as snakes. He is a very respectable person. His job requires that he is very honest. Did he happen to mention to you what his day job is? I bet he did and you are not mentoning it because it might throw a few credibility points his way. I suggest you take care of your own buisness, don't pass it off to your friends. If you can't pick up the package, ask the person to ship at a later date.
Tom Teasdale

[DavidBeard]

Yes, I know of his occupation. Just because he is an officer of the law, that does not exclude him from accountability. The fact is that it matters not who received the package, but the state the animal was in before he shipped it out and how the animal was packaged. The fact is that I was an unsatisfied customer who had to nag him into even considering doing the right thing. That is not how good business should be done.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Tom If you look at the picture of the injury it is NOT a fresh injury. It has already started healing. If it appeared to be a fresh injury then I would say ok maybe it happened in transit but the fact remains that injury is not fresh and did not happen in shipping.
David maybe you can post the Vet report where they state the injury was not a fresh injury. I am sure the Vet would agree that injury is from at least 5 days earlier by the way the healing has started.

[DavidBeard]

Rob, like I said earlier, there is no vet report. The vet merely offered her opinion and I did not receive it as a written statement. All I got was an invoice.

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

David,

Most Vet's can and will write down their findings on a letter head for a customer. Yes you might have to pay for it but it will be more proof of the injury's status. Just a thought.

[DavidBeard]

I will definitely keep that in mind, Rob. I don't really think it would matter much in this matter though, because the vet even said there is no way of proving how old the wound is, it really just lies on conjecture and estimations. The only thing that is for sure is that it did not happen in shipping.

[Asuncion7]

I know it was said on here earlier that Airborne doesn't require a sig, but the tracking slip says get signature on the top right, and someones name or something was blacked out where it says signed for by, just curious about that.

[Asuncion7]

Forgot to finish what I was saying...

Is it possible Todd requested a sig and airborne didn't do it, because I do see how it also states that it was left at the door.

[DavidBeard]

No, Todd did not request a signature because when I talked to him on the phone, he was not aware that they did not require a sig, nor was I until the snake was already shipped out.

[colubridman88]

First of all there is no way of knowing what date you took those pictures. Why did you wait so long to post on the BOI?HUH? Second, i just got off the phone with todd. He said he never refused to pay for vet bills. He kept all his emails. That was a lie told by you. HE TOLD YOU THE ANIMAL WAS SET FOR 10:30 DELIVERY. You need to stop contridciting yourself. You said you emailed him several times??!!!??? Does three email constitute using the word "several"??!!!??!?!??! Plus this happened on the week of thanksgiving. I am not suprised he didn't get back to you right away. He didn't get back to me until that sunday.
Just because you go into paint and write the date on the picture doesnt mean thats when you took it. Todd is not just an "officer of the law", he is an inspector and has been on the "job" for 20 years. I tend to believe someone like that instead of a guy like you. You are just trying to cause problems. Todd is a stand up guy with lots of friends in this buisness, whom he has dealt with on numerous occasions without problems. This little bitch fit won't hurt his reputation one bit.
Tom Teasdale

[cka]

Really try to stay out of these, but.........


May I play devil's advocate here and ask David to post pic of both the snakes?....and/or Todd a pic of the snake when he had it?


I've shipped like that in the dead of winter with no problems exactly the way todd packed the borneo...Just not with hurting Airborne Express....the wound is what jumped out at me here...kinda hard to miss, but it COULD happen....I'd just pay the remainder of the vet bill and move on if I were in Todd's shoes...Good luck to you guys; hope ya get it squared away

The Devil
:dgrin:

[ldydrgn]

First off, I told David to have her shipped here since no one would be home at his place to receive the package. I and my husband would be able to open and inspect her right away. I had expected a knock at the door and to sign for her.. I don't care who the shipper is. The blacked out bit on the tracking info is my address only... and none of you need to know exactly where I live, now do you?

Second, I took those pictures 2 minutes after unpacking her. The wound was noticeable right away so I grabbed my camera. I am sorry if we can't afford a camera that has a time/date stamp.

Third, TRIVIAL? The snake's life is trivial? That's a new one on me...

Fourth, not to accuse Todd of being crooked or anything, however, just because a man is a priest it never stopped them from raping young boys. In other words, a person's occupation does not absolve them.

I have NO reason To lie, I get nothing from it. Tell me something... could someone on here please tell me exactly how long it takes for an RI to set in to the point where mucous comes from the nose upon exhalation? She had it when she arrived...

You may know Todd personally, fine, but were you there when the snake shipped? I have two witnesses other than my husband (Kevin Scott that posted and his s/o) that can tell you the heat pack was cold and that it began to warm up after being shook up. What else do I need?

[DavidBeard]

Tom, you are really only making things look worse for Todd. You are totally derailing this thread and are serving no purpose other than to flame me.

I don't know how much you consider 'several', but in my book it means 3 or more times, lol. I have kept all of my e-mails as well. Todd said he would not pay the vet bill at first, then AFTER this thread was started he relented. You think Michelle has faked the dates on the pics? LMAO....there are 3 (4 if Donnie gets around to posting) that were EYE WITNESSES and can attest to everything I have said. You weren't here, so I think your claims hold no ground whatsoever. I waited this long to post on the BOI because I am not hasty in doing this sort of thing. I wanted to give Todd the benefit of the doubt and give him some more time.....I think a week is more than substantial time. Like I've said before....his occupation has nothing to do with this, so stop bringing it up. Its just a tactic to switch the focus on the real issue at hand. Do you think because he is a cop, he can do no wrong? LMAO! There are crooked cops all over the world and you sound like a naieve child to say something like that. Even though Todd has "many friends" that will not stop me from pursuing what I believe is the right thing to do.

[DavidBeard]

Since Tom says I am lying, here is the e-mail where Todd says he won't pay the vet bill:

Wednesday, December 03, 2003 8:09 PM
From: "Todd Seadorf" <tourx3@bellsouth.net>
To: dcbear01
Subject: RE: Times a tickin.......
Urgent New
Well yes, in the process of answering other emails from friends, family
and others, you were on the pile to be answered when I received your
second message. So I responded right away. If you feel that you must
make that post, then fine. I sure we can work out something. I will not
pay the full bill. Remember the snake was left out in the cold as you
said, which is out of my hands. I have filled a complaint with airborne,
but do to no lost at time of shipping there is nothing they will do. So
I am canceling my account with them and going to UPS.

Todd and Patrick Seadorf
561-433-8813
Palm Beach Exotics

[Ken Harbart]

Tom, you definitely are doing Todd a great disservice.

[DavidBeard]

I forgot something....Michelle pointed out to me today that the degree of RI the snake had when it arrived was bad enough that it was not something that being cold during shipping would have caused (exascerbated, but not caused).....it was set in for a few days before the snake was sent out. So, not only did the snake have the wound befoire shipping, it also had an RI. I am frankly surprised the snake did not die during shipping. Todd mentioned that he knows nothing about bloods and was even keeping the snake on aspen bedding.....My take is that if you have no idea on how to care for an animal, you have no business owning it, LET ALONE sending it to another in the condition the snake I got was in.

Go ahead and ask Todd how the snakes he got from me are doing.....I don't think you'll hear one word of complaint.

[colubridman88]

Hey David, This is really over, right? Todd agreed to pay the vet bill, right? And you have only proved that you told a half lie. He said he wouldn't pay it all, right? And he shouldn't, the snake should not have been out in 20 degree weather for 30 minutes(YOUR FAULT). Even if the heat pack was working(as you claim it was not), the ambient temp inside the box would have only been 35 degrees. So maybe you should get YOUR OWN PACKAGES SHIPPED TO YOU. I SUGGEST IF YOU CAN'T BE THERE WHEN A PACKAGE IS DELIVERED...........USE DELTA. You should work on your competence, it seems to be lacking. I am not going to monitor this post anymore, so if you have anything useful to say, Davey boy, email me. BTW thanks for the response Ken, But todd thanked me for everything i said on this thread.Especially because he knows i don't post here.
Hoping Dave Feels better and hoping he will use his brain the next time he gets a snake shipped to HIM(NOT HIS FRIENDS),
Tom Teasdale

[DavidBeard]

LOL...well, I hope for yours and Todd's sake that that was truly your last post, because you are definitely not helping anything and are only showing how incompetent you really are. With friends like Tom, who needs enemies?

[ldydrgn]

Had the snake been shipped to David it would have sat on the doorstep for quite a while longer.. where is the sense in that? The life of the animal is not "trivial" to us which is why I had David request her to be shipped to our apartment . Todd chose Airborne, not David. David shipped via UPS and the snakes arrived to Todd just fine, yes? He also shipped them under MY instruction. You are doing your best to deflect the blame to others. I have witnesses and David arrived here not long after the snake did. So, again, show me YOUR proof that we are to blame. Also, I uploaded the pics to my photo album shortly after David left with the snake, she was here maybe one whole hour TOTAL. The wound was not draining, was not shiney, therefore it had healed over somewhat, not a fresh wound. We have rehabbed a few snakes, we know what a fresh wound looks like. There are no holes in my story. There are no holes in David's. I have done my best to cover it all honestly and truthfully. Todd admits to not knowing that Airborne did not request a sig. Todd is now canceling his Airborne account. Doesn't that say to you that he accepts responsibility for the bad choice he made?

[sychoram]

Originally posted by DavidBeard
and was even keeping the snake on aspen bedding.....
.

ok someone tell me when aspen was put on the nono list for snakes. Did i miss that or is it only bad for bloods

[Wilomn]

Maybe I missed something here, are jesse and tom the same person?

I find it highly unlikely that a snake would develop a URI to the point that mucous(sp) was coming out its nose in 30 minutes. The fact that David had it sent to a place where people were waiting for it to arrive instead of his home where there was no one also speaks well for him. I can't find anyplace where David lied, perhaps you could point it out tom/jesse.

I can see where todd lied. He not only shipped a snake that obviously had an active URI but one that had a wound that only a blind man could miss.

tom/jesse, if I ever need help, PLEASE, PLEASE do not try to help me.

It really seems that todd is not to be held accountable for the delivery man not knocking/ringing but it is at that point his innocense comes to an end. The snake was sick and wounded when it was shipped.

Wes Pollock

[colubridman88]

I am posting on more thing at jesses request. He loves this site and doesnt want me to get him in trouble with the moderator. Wes, read the first reply i posted. That will answer your question.Thanks. And in regards to the trivial issue, Michelle if you bothered to READ the post, i said that todd would never lie about something so trivial. Never did i say that the snakes life was trivial, READ THE POST. Dont twist words.
Tom Teasdale

[Wilomn]

It's not really important who you are though if you're not jesse and you are using his account to post you are violating the TOS here.

The simple facts are todd lied. Then he got caught. Then he seems to willing to make it better. So far so good, so far.......

Bottom line is he, todd, lied and you don't seem to see or want to admit that.

History seems to repeat itself fairly often here. todd wasn't willing to do anything until he found out that it was being posted on the BOI. Then his "friend" helps him kill his reputation.

I think the next step is finding god and appologizing to all the nice people for being such a jerk.

Did I miss anything?

Wes Pollock

[sychoram]

Originally posted by wilomn

History seems to repeat itself fairly often here. Did I miss anything?

Wes Pollock yes and when he decides who is winning Good Ole Wes jumps right on the band wagon and becomes a major player.

[Wilomn]

Let me quote a famous carrot muncher for ya

"he don't know me vewy well, do he?"

Wes Pollock

[Donnie Smith]

Hi!

Most everyone here knows who I am even though most of you know me as "Your Sick Uncle Morti." If anyone would like to doubt my expertise in snakes, please post here so you can be scoffed at openly.

Michelle (ldydrgn) is my wife, and it was our place that the snake was delivered to. David (bless his trusting little soul) told us that he was getting this snake and we volunteered to accept shipment for him. I was happy to do this as I know I could make a pretty good inspection of the snake upon arrival.

I have never had a good experience with airborne express. I was not aware that this was the method of shipping, or I would have advised David to request a change of shipper or back out of the deal. All that has already been hashed out.

When I did open the package, the temperatures in the box were close to the temps outside... High 30s. In retospect, I suppose I should have grabbed my temp gun and gotten an exact reading, but I was FAR more concerned about the well being of the animal.

I had to dig through a giant mound of shredded paper to even get to the heat pack. It was putting out precisely NO heat. It was cold to the touch. I should know. I touched it. There is no other way to describe or debate it... either due to ignorance or negligence on the part of the shipper, the heat pack had failed. That, to me, is just sad.

The wound is unlike any wound I had ever seen on snakes, and with the rescues I have seen, I've seen all kinds. It is perfectly circular, about 1/2 inch diameter. it sits about 2 inches anterier of mid body and about half an inch left of dorsal. I would not even begin to speculate on what caused it. It looks like a very small cookie cutter hole. While it was still raw looking when I unpacked the snake, it had begun to scab over and the edges looked especially crusty as though it had been there for a while. with the size of the wound, had this occured in shipping, there would have been blood and scale tissue in the bag. This was absent.

As has also been mentioned, the snake sprayed a fair amount of mucus on my wife's legs when we were attempting to warm her up. That doesn't happen from being at cold temps for 30 minutes either.

I know many people who would have sent this snake back and demanded their trade returned. I personally think that David was very fair and resonable in how he suggested that the situation be handled. I am glad that Todd agreed to the terms and when I hear that the situation has been resolved, it will be a happy day. All that having been said, I am not pleased with people who get on the BOI and spout things about which they have no knowledge purely in defense of a friend.

I am posting in defense of noone. Just stating facts. Speaking of Facts, Tom, You said,
Well, If todd says the wound wasn't there then i believe him. He doesn't lie. Especially about things as trivial as snakes. He is a very respectable person. His job requires that he is very honest.
So why don't you practice what you preach wen you say things like:
READ THE POST. Dont twist words.

Thanks for your time.
-Donnie "morti" Smith

[sychoram]

So anyway, Whats up with the aspen thing?? I'm sure Wes knows the answer

[Wilomn]

Hey jr., you're finally right. I do know the answer.

You however, are such a pantload, that I'm not going to tell you.

Wes Pollock

[ldydrgn]

Aspen can be very dusty and it isn't the best substrate to use for animals that require high humidity. Bloods are tricky to keep. They need humidity and yet a dry substrate. They are very prone to skin problems and RI's because of this. ANY snake prone to RI's should never be kept on aspen. Boas and cornsnakes are fine on aspen, but snakes like Rainbow boas, any in the genus Liasis, or any other snake requiring high humidity should be kept on cypress (those that aren't prone to skin problems) or newspaper and have a humid hide for the snake.

Too dusty and too dry conditions can easily initiate an RI.

[Kevin3]

Tom posted saying he had difficulties getting his own Fauna account and was using his room mate's account (so that is where the Jesse Smith came from) That sounds like a violation of the BOI in itself but he did state right up front that it was him. Since the two warning's on the Jesse Smith account were both on 20th of November for about the same type of posts that Tom Teasdale has been making on this thread. So even if a Moderator decides to give a warning point or two it really won't affect Tom here.

I really would like to see Todd reply to this thread because Tom you really aren't helping him a bit.

This thread isn't over until some issues are settled.

Issue #1) The heat pack wasn't properly activiated and/or failed.

Good discussion posted on how to properly activate the heat pack (or use two) and views on the shipping container. I doubt Todd will ever make this mistake again or will ensure that he verifies a good heat pack before shipping. Other people will learn from this.

Issue #2) Who Todd used as a shipper (Airborne Express) and why that can be bad.

Airborne Express doesn't knock on doors and with the heat pack not working that didn't help on a cold day (30-40 degrees)
What also didn't help was that the snake was in Ohio during the night and we don't know what the temperature status was.

Tom ranted about this in his post:

"...the snake should not have been out in 20 degree weather for 30 minutes(YOUR FAULT). Even if the heat pack was working(as you claim it was not), the ambient temp inside the box would have only been 35 degrees."

Heat pack discussion about only a 15 degree rise in temperature for a properly operating heatpack and suitable container. Now let's assume (best case) that the temperature in the Airborne Express truck was 70 degrees and the heat pack was working then the internal temperature would have been about 85 degrees. Now take the package out and set it in front of Michelle's door. Do you really think that the internal temperature of the sealed box with no air holes and I believe about 3/8"s to 1/2" of styrofoam inside the package sides will cause ambient internal temperature to drop that fast? If so why bother to insulate?
SInce the heatpack was not working then we can assume 70 degrees internal ambient temperature which would drop faster but not to outside ambient in 30 minutes.

Use Delta? Did you suggest that to Todd since he picked Airborne?

Results are that Todd said he would not use Airborne Express again. Other people now know that Airborne Express isn't the way to ship.

Issue #3) Respiratory Infection: Was it there before being shipped? Yes, it could have been. (someone want to add to the discussion about the length of time before mucus will be present during an RI?) Did the failed cold pack cause it to get worse? Sounds like it to me.

Results: One sick snake that David had to take to the vet and is now having to give shots to help the RI. Todd said he would pay this initial vet bill. I now know the proper way to give a shot to a snake.

Just as an aside, the email where Todd stated "I will not
pay the full bill. Remember the snake was left out in the cold as you said, which is out of my hands." was before Todd found out that the package was only outside the door for about 30 minutes base upon the tracking data that was posted. David did post at one point that Todd said he would now pay the complete vet bill.

This portion of the issue will not be completed until Todd actually pays David after seeing a copy of the Vet's bill for the snake.

Issue #4) Not so fresh injury to the snake as documented on pictures taken right after the package was opened.

Michelle and Morti know their snakes and how to take care of them. They stated it wasn't fresh, and others on here have stated the same. I'm just an EMT-B and my expertise is for human injuries or animal injuries growing up on a farm. So even if I say it didn't look fresh (it did not look fresh to me) to me I'm not the snake expert.

Results: When Todd pays the vet bill then this issue will be settled unless Todd and David decide otherwise or agree to some other settlement.

The vet bill was for the RI and the Injury care.

Did this hurt Todd's reputation? Maybe or Yes. That's up to how Todd handles the rest of this. So let's give Todd a chance to answer here on the BOI. (that's meansgive him a few days)

The Aspen question?
I may be wrong and other's may have their own opinion but my understanding is that aspen has a tendency to have dust (which can be breathed in) and doesn't maintain humidity well. So dry and dusty leads to a possible RI? Borneo's need a humid type hide and have pickier husbandry issues than other snakes that may be fine on aspen.

The last comment is again to Tom. Telling David that you won't monitor this thread any more and invite him to PM you at Jesse's address? (since you didn't give out your e-mail address) In my opinion that's in poor taste.

Hopefully this issue will be resolved in that the snake survives and has a healthy long life. That David and Todd work things out to some sort of mutual satisfaction.

My opinion is that Todd made some mistakes. How he corrects them is what matters now.

Kevin Scott

[DavidBeard]

Thank you, Donnie & Kevin, for putting this chaos to a little bit of order ;) ! I just want it to be known that it was not my intent to flame Todd or deface his reputation when I started this thread. I merely wish to be treated as I treat others.....he got a good deal from me (the trade was heavily in his favor, money worth-wise) and all I wanted was a nice healthy female blood. I did not get what I wanted, so I was unhappy. Put youself in my shoes....what would you have done? I suppose we can all learn several (yes, Tom, meaning MORE than 3, lol!) valuable lessons from all this, which Kevin mentioned.....thats what matters the most to me personally-that we learn from our mistakes.

In retrospect, I would not have completed the deal had I known EVERYTHING about the snake, but I am glad she is here with me. She has endeared me with her plight and I believe all this happened for a reason-so Wilma (the blood's name) could have a second chance at a good life. I will give Michelle the Vet bill for her to scan and it will posted sometime soon. I thank all of those who have participated in a positive way and I cannot thank enough the friends of mine who have given me so much help throughout this ordeal (Kevin, Donnie, Michelle).

Happy Holidays everyone!

[Darin Chappell]

Tom wrote:

"Do you always pass things off to you friends? If you want to make sure something is taken care of you should do it yourself.

Anyone else find that more than slightly amusing coming from the guy posting on his FRIEND'S account??? :laugh:

That wound cannot have been fresh when the picture was taken. If you look closely at it, you can see that the scales surrounding the wound are already reorienting themselves in their alignment toward the center of the wound. This happens when the skin starts to tighten as it regenerates as a scar. It was likely not mroe than a few days old, but it has definitely started to HEAL, and that simply cannot have taken place in the amount of time during shipping.

[Pennebaker]

Just as a side note...
Switching shippers may not make a difference. I have had every shipper leave packages on my doorstep in all kinds of weather--UPS, Airborne, Fed-ex--without knocking or ringing. Even when it says "live harmless reptile, keep at room temps". And even with some of them "requiring" a signature. I do believe airborne has a $3 option of making sure to get a signature--a special tag that gets scanned. But, be looking out for the trucks with any of these shippers.

Dana

[DavidBeard]

Good point, Dana. The box that Todd used was the same box that I shipped his snake to him in, and it was clearly labeled 'perishable' and 'keep at room temps' or something of that nature. I have not had any problems with UPS or FedEx however. They always knock, in my experience.

[Jim Lanier]

Originally posted by DavidBeard
I will give Michelle the Vet bill for her to scan and it will posted sometime soon.


While you are at it David, why don't you get Michelle to scan and post a copy of your import permit. You know, the one that was <b>required</b> in order to bring this animal into the state of Kentucky legally. I'd be interested to see it along with your vet bill.

[DavidBeard]

I do not have an import permit, Jim. I am unaware of any such permit. If you have any additional info, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Donnie Smith]

Unless I misunderstood when i went to the meeting in Frankfort about the new herp laws in kentucky, the only reptiles that are covered under the "Transportation Permit" legislation as I think you will find it is called are native species of animals. As Blood Pythons do not now nor ever have they existed in the state of Kentucky, it is a non issue.

[DavidBeard]

Thanks for the clarification, Donnie! :D

[WebSlave]

Just a side note here about using heat packs.

It is recommended that you actually use TWO heat packs when shipping to cold climates, rather than just one. Shake them both vigorously to mix the chemical material inside. If the material feels like a solid block, rather than loose powder, discard it. If you don't feel them becoming warm to the touch within 15 minutes after opening the plastic wrapper, discard them as well.

Wrap them both loosely in newspaper, not necessarily touching together, but both should be wrapped together in the same "package". We have recently started placing some shedded paper between the red air line and the newspaper to give a better air gap. This will allow the heat packs to work more efficiently, plus the heat from one pack will help to keep the other heat pack operating, even if the box is subjected to low temperatures during transit.

Place the heat pack FLAT on the BOTTOM of the box, so the heat will rise and help heat the entire box. TAPE it to the bottom of the box so it won't shift around during transit. Try to keep the animals from coming in direct contact with the heat pack itself.

Another side benefit of using two heat packs, is if you do get one that has a premature failure, you would still likely have the other one providing heat regardless.

As has been mentioned elsewhere. NO airholes in the box if you are shipping to colder climates. The box WILL NOT run out of air!
But it CAN run out of heat because of airflow through the box.

Use new boxes in good shape with at least 3/4 inch styrofoam insulation top and bottom, and all sides. Do NOT cut corners when it comes to shipping live animals.

[ldydrgn]

Yes, Rich... the heat pack was solid when we pulled it out. :(

[sychoram]

Michelle,
Thank you for setting me straight on the aspen issue. I haven't dealt with bloods in a very long time and was unaware of this. Quess we all learn something here.

P.s. if I'd been winning wes would have answered!!!
:nuts:
:wavey:

[sychoram]

sorry spelled guess wrong. Please forgive me, got in a hurry

[Jim Lanier]

Well this thread certainly sunk to the bottom of the pile once the fact came to light that Donnie, Michelle, and David were guilty of breaking the law and imported this animal without a permit.

Originally posted by Donnie Smith
Unless I misunderstood when i went to the meeting in Frankfort about the new herp laws in kentucky, the only reptiles that are covered under the "Transportation Permit" legislation as I think you will find it is called are native species of animals. As Blood Pythons do not now nor ever have they existed in the state of Kentucky, it is a non issue.

Oh but it is an issue 'oh one that knows it all.' Maybe you should call the fish and wildlife department at 800-858-1549 and get the inside scoop. Or you can check it out yourself at their site here. (http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/kar/301/002/082.htm) Be sure and pay particular attention to section 4 of 301 KAR 2:082. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, especially if you were at the meeting in Frankfort.

So... let's see that vet report and import permit!!

[Donnie Smith]

I invite you to report me to Kentucky Fish and Wildlife.

Send me an e-mail and I will provide you with my personal address and phone number so the Fish and Wildlife people know where to find me. I think you will find that they already know who I am... Heck, my exact words appear in a different part of that legislation.

morti@redtailboa.net.

If you do not wish to do that, then that's up to you... But feel free to make all the accusations you like as they don't hurt anything here in this forum.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a stake in this deal? Or are you just a concerned citizen? It would be really funny if you ended up getting a whole bunch of people arrested because you like to bring up off topic issues.

Just my oppinion.

-Donnie "Morti" Smith

[herpetological]

A portion of the regulation 301KAR 2:081 states: A non commercial Pet and Propagation Permit is required to possess,purchase, or propagate wildlife for non-commercial purposes. Transportation permits are required to import, transport,or recieve any live wildlife.....*Reptiles are specifically excluded from the definition of "wildlife" in regulation 301KAR 2:081, and are presumably exempt from permit requirements. Permits are required, however, to possess and/or propagate amphibians. These laws may have changed but, that was what I was quoted recently. If there is a violation keep in mind that BOTH parties could be charged.

[markwebb]

David -

Who is Jim Lanier?

Is he in the KYHerpSoc?

Why is he so hateful to you and Donnie? What is his problem?

Doe he post on the KyHerpSoc message board?

Does he know what a nice young man you are? I don't think so !

What is his interest in this - does he have "a dog in this fight?" I don't understand his motivation or why he is so mean.

It sounds like Donnie and Raymond both produced statue provisions that exclude non-native species and were very adament that Jim is plain wrong. Donnie even basically said "put up or shut up".

This issue is quite controversial. I hear one person say you need the permits, and others quote provisions that exclude non-native species. What is the KyHerpSoc position on it? What's the real answer? I find it hard to believe that the legislations intent is to require a permit everytime one brings a lizard or snake into KY. What if you buy a snake at a show out of state - an unplanned purchase when you find just the female you have been looking for, for that love-starved male you have at home? Do you need to get a pre-emptive permit everytime you THINK you May purchase a snake at an out-of-state show? I don't think that's the intent.

Does anyone really know?

Anyway, since joining the herp society and surfing the 'web I have been amazed at how mean some people are. At the shows and at meetings I find only super nice people willing to go waaaaay outta their way to help fellow herpers. But on these boards I find people that wanna go waaaay outta their way to make people feel miserable. Why are there so many people out there like that? Why don't people like Jim just keep to themselves instead of being so accusatory and mean spirited?

'Tis the season to be merry and spread happiness. Jeez - no wonder we still have wars and international disagreements that lead to bloodshed and loss of life and property - we can't even get along on these boards and be happy as a herpin' community.

Thank goodness the KyHerpSoc has so many really really truly genuine nice folks as members.

This thread started with you posting info on the breeder who sent you the wounded animal. from what I saw you have been doing a great job nursing the snake back to health. That shows what a true kind and compassionate animal person that you are - working with the wounded snake. I don't think Jim realizes how great a young man you are - if he did he would not be so critical.

I like to look for the good out there - not the bad.

To Jim and other folks like him out there - relax, enjoy the company and fellowship of fellow herpers - - - and happy holidays.

[Ken Harbart]

The argument regarding the statute iis a red herring, nothing more. It has no bearing whatsoever on the mistakes made by Todd.

[HerpVenue]

A: "Do you always pass things off to you friends? If you want to make sure something is taken care of you should do it yourself. Kinda funny how he says the above but he is the one posting for his friend.

Anyway. I receive a LOT of packages for my friends around town who own snakes. They all work and not always have the luxury to be home. I too work but the fact that work is 30 seconds away by car and 3 minutes away by walking gives me the luxury to come home for lunch and recieve everyones packages.

B: the snake should not have been out in 20 degree weather for 30 minutes(YOUR FAULT). Someone does not know too much about their snakes.
Let me know if you all want me to put one of my snakes out in 30 degree weather for 40 minutes....
But I can already tell you the result. It will not get RI in that short of a time. At least not to the point that mucus comes out of its mouth.

C: So maybe you should get YOUR OWN PACKAGES SHIPPED TO YOU.
See answer for A above.

D: I SUGGEST IF YOU CAN'T BE THERE WHEN A PACKAGE IS DELIVERED...........USE DELTA.
I believe it was your buddy who chose the delivery method.

E: You should work on your competence, it seems to be lacking.

Kinda funny...... But I was going to tell you the same thing.
Davey Boy here has not attacked your buddy. Just about everyone on this thread has been mature. I wonder what your hang up is.

While you are at it David, why don't you get Michelle to scan and post a copy of your import permit. You know, the one that was required in order to bring this animal into the state of Kentucky legally. I'd be interested to see it along with your vet bill.

And while your at it. Who do you propose was responsible for making sure the animal came with a vet certificate that says the animal does not show signs of disease. clearly it had to be a vet from Todd's end. Because if you are right and an import/transportation license is needed...a vet certificate was also needed. How can Davey get the animal to a vet without first importing the animal into the state?

How many shipments of animals have gone into kentucky without this so called transportation license?

Then again what does all this have to do with the fact that the snake was sick and had an injury.

it seems someone is just trying to detract from the thread. Like Ken said. Red herring

Hey Lanier
By the way. I know you got some snakes from David Evans.
Do YOU have the transportation permit for them?

P.S. Someone says Todd is a cop and therefore is of outstanding whatever whatever implying he would never lie.
I just wanted to take this time to remind everyone that there have been cops posting on the BOI whose integrity were rather questionable....I will not name names. But they have had bad guy threads about them.....and rightfully so.

[DavidBeard]

I have no idea what Jim's benefit would be for starting this sort of crap. I don't think he is involved in this situation whatsoever, so why is he posting on this thread at all? It seems there have been numerous attempts to derail this thread and get away from the main point(s) here. I do not know why Jim harbors such ill feelings towards myself or Donnie. All I can do is present the truth and let others make thier own judgments about it that way.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread in a positive way. I appreciate your help in this matter greatly.

[DavidBeard]

I have some bad news concerning the Blood Python......she went into blue about 10 days ago and shed last night. That went ok, but upon inspection, I found her to have ANOTHER FRESH wound on her......this wound was NOT there yesterday when I checked her in the morning......I think she may have some sort of skin disorder. To top it all off, I thought she had gotten over her RI, but now she is wheexing with every breath and her brething is very labored and sharp, as if she just did something strenuous.......I will be taking her to vet as soon as I can get the $ together. Here is a pic of her newest wound:

http://novogate.com/forums/1647/user/23319/9812.jpg

On a side note.......I apologize for never having posted the vet bill for the last vet visit......I just never got around to it, despite my friends trying to remind me often, lol. As of now I am not concerned about the $ or anything, just getting this snake healthy.......it looks as though I have quite a task ahead of me.

Once again.......thank you Todd Seadorf for SUCH a wonderful animal!!!

[The BoidSmith]

David,

In MHO that kind of lesion cannot happen from one day to the next. It is possible that it was right under the skin and was not easily observed upon inspection. Uppon shedding, that part of the skin sloughed off with the old skin. The other odd thing is that they are perfectly symetric, round-shaped and very clean. Reminds me more of fungal infection rather than bacterial infections althoughs these can be secondary invaders. I guess your vet will be able to give you a diagnosis.

[DavidBeard]

Yes, I found the nature of the wounds to be very unusual as well. Her other 2 wounds are healing nicely though. She still has a healthy appetite, as she ate a medium rat a couple hours ago. I hope that we can find out what is the matter with her and fix the problem if possible.

[The BoidSmith]

Has anyone dealt with him recently? How did it go?

Thanks

[The BoidSmith]

Nobody has dealt with Todd recently?

Thanks