Force Feed or Try Live?

[AGoodwin]

I am having a big problem with my male normal. He hasnt eaten anything since 12/11 and his weight loss is now dangerous. I am going to try assist feeding tonight, but if that doesnt take, I will need to try something more drastic. I know that force feeding is extremely stressful, but he has never eaten live and he is 2 years old. I dont know which would be more risky, trying to give him live, or force feeding. Here is the some information to go on.

First of all, here is information from my iherp log to show you his decline.

02/02
Refused Food 1Refused (1) Rat -Small F/T 02/02
Weight 1815g 01/30
Weight 1833g 01/16
Weight 0860g 12/28
Refused Food 1Refused (1) Rat - Small 12/28
Weight 0865g 12/24
Shed 1Shed Completed 12/24
Regurge 1Regurgitated (1) Rat - Small F/T 12/20
Refused Food 1Refused Food 12/11
Feeding 1(1) Rat - Small F/T 11/26
Feeding 1(1) Rat - Small F/T 11/19
Feeding 1(1) Rat - Small F/T 11/11
Feeding 1(1) Rat - Small F/T 11/04
Weight 0888g
As you can see the two most recent weights are very concerning. In only 3 days he has lost 15g. This is why I need to act now. As I said, I am going to attempt assist feeding tonight, but if that does not work, I need to know where to go from there.

Beau is very timid. He gets scared sometimes even with his dead food if you move it too fast twards him. That with the fact that he has never had live before make if very scary to even consider. If I did try it, I would have to use nothing bigger than fuzzies to lessen the chance of him getting hurt. I know its not the ideal size for him, but at least he would be eating something.

On the other hand, there is force feeding, which for one, I have never done, and two, I know is very stressful.

So, I need some help making this decision. If the assist feeding does not work, what should I try next?

[AGoodwin]

sorry it looks like the chart got messed up during posting.. here it is again....

02/02 Refused Food 1 small F/T Rat
02/02 Weight 815g
1/30 Weight 833g
1/16 Weight 860g
12/28 Refused Food 1 small F/T Rat
12/28 Weight 865g
12/24 Shed
12/24 Regurgitated Food 1 small F/T Rat
12/20 Refused Food 1 small F/T Rat
12/11 Feeding 1 small F/T Rat
11/26 Feeding 1 small F/T Rat
11/19 Feeding 1 small F/T Rat
11/11 Feeding 1 small F/T Rat
11/04 Weight 888g

[edf01]

Amanda,

I have had snakes fast for several months- and yes they did lose weight, but I am not sure what people would consider the drastic weight.. the snake lost 72 grams...

however, I see a regurg- so I would be thankful your snake did not eat when you offered food- if a snake regurges, you need to give the snake time to build up its stomache acids, or if the snake does eat- its just going to regurg again. Regurging is hard on their system, and if they dont have the stomache acid build up, they won't be able to digest the food, and ergo, it expels it. However, its been long enough- I just wanted to share my opinion since I see you offered food 4 days after a rewgurg.

About the eating- what gram is your small rat? In my experience, if I feed larger rodents for along time without giving them smaller ones, they can fill up, and just not eat- especially with the males. I usually pawn the smaller sized meals off on them.

In all honesty, I would try live before even assist feeding. My males I had that fasted would start back up quicker on live, and assist feeding can be stressful on the snake ( force feeding could be worse) I only have experience assist feedign a baby, and can't imagine doing it on an adult. There was a few times I was thinking something had to be done for the one male, but he always resumed eating on his last chance.

I had a snake that took f/t all its life, but then suddenly stopped eating, and tried everything, but she would only take live. The snakes still know their instincts. You can give the snake a smaller then usual rat for you to feed comfortable with- trust me, I understand how you feel and what you are saying- i hate feeding live so its just more worrisome for the 2% of snakes i have that wont take f/t. But IMHO, I would try live before assist/force feeding....

good luck

[AGoodwin]

Thank you for your reply. I am unsure if the rat was actually regurgitated. My husband fed him that night and he did not stay up to see it go down. It is possible that he never actually ate it at all, but I put down regurgitated to show that he did strike and constrict and at least start eating.

As far as the trying live. For me I am not happy about it at all as Ive had rats as pets before, but I will put my feelings aside to save my boy. I am just worried about him getting hurt, hence why I would try a young rat to lessen that chance. I will wait for at least a couple more replies, but if the consensus is that I should just try live first, then I will do that. Hopefully I can find an appropriate size live rat to use. The pet stores around here dont have live feeder bins, so live rats are small-large size. I will ask the staff if they have anything smaller outback though.

[AGoodwin]

oh, and about the size of the rats I feed. I am not sure exactly. However as far as feeding smaller, I actually tried that last night. Our newest addition did not take his fuzzy, so I figured I would offer it to Beau. I figured it couldnt hurt. He did show a little interest in it. Following it around and sniffing more than with the small rat we offered him, but he never bothered to strike. Tonight was the second time we (my husband and I) spent over an hour trying to get him to eat. We stop to warm up the rat in warm water again while giving Beau a break when it gets cold. Beau has always taken some time to eat. Typically between 5-10 minutes, but he has never refused food before this.

[AGoodwin]

*last night, not tonight. sorry. I wish I could edit posts. lol

[MajorLeagueReptiles]

This is perfectly normal. 815g male during breeding season is off food and you are concerned about 50g weight loss? I've had snakes take 150g bowel movements and go off feed for nearly 12 months. Force feeding is not necessary and will only cause added stress. You would know if a rat was regurged, sounds like he just didn't want to eat it... That's normal for a male who wants to breed. Even slight ambient temperature drops can cause his mood to change. If you are really that concerned drop in a live mouse.... Your BP is just fine.. Force feed in a year from now... In the meantime, dont even stress about it. This is completely normal.

[GREGORY J HALL]

3 months is no bid deal even 6,feed live he will probely eat live .

[AGoodwin]

This is perfectly normal. 815g male during breeding season is off food and you are concerned about 50g weight loss? ......

Actually it is more than 50g. He was 888g in november. I didnt weigh him again until almost 2 months later when he stopped eating so I am guessing he weighed a bit more than that before he started his decline. Either way his loss was very gradual until recently when he lost 15 grams in just 3 days. Another 15 grams and he will have lost 10%. From what I read 10-15% weight loss is the danger zone. If he continues at this rate, (i.e. another 15g in just 3 days) then it wont be long before he is in trouble.

I know its quite normal for some balls to go off feed, which is why I havent bothered to ask for any advice or get worried until now. I have just been keeping track of his weight to make sure he stayed in the save zone and continuing to offer food every week.

Anyways, thanks for the reply. I am going to try to find a live rat fuzzy this weekend to offer him.

[MajorLeagueReptiles]

While in some cases 10-15% Weight loss can be potentially a problem, don't always believe everything you read. Ive learned with ball pythons there is a large number of variability. I have a male emperor pinstripe, weighed 630g at the beginning of the breeding season. He now weights 565g and is breeding about 7 females like a champ. That's 10%+ weight loss... Am I concerned, no. His weight has been constant for a while now. He will probably breed and be off feed for 3-4 more months... Another example, let's take a 1600g female who laid for me last year and after she was a merely 860g... I don't even think she began feeding right away but she came around and is about 2000g now and gonna hopefully lay again this year. It's all gooood.

[snakesRkewl]

Never seen a wild snake eat a f/t.

[AGoodwin]

While in some cases 10-15% Weight loss can be potentially a problem, don't always believe everything you read. Ive learned with ball pythons there is a large number of variability. I have a male emperor pinstripe, weighed 630g at the beginning of the breeding season. He now weights 565g and is breeding about 7 females like a champ. That's 10%+ weight loss... Am I concerned, no. His weight has been constant for a while now. He will probably breed and be off feed for 3-4 more months... Another example, let's take a 1600g female who laid for me last year and after she was a merely 860g... I don't even think she began feeding right away but she came around and is about 2000g now and gonna hopefully lay again this year. It's all gooood.

Thanks for the reply. Its good to know that its not always a problem. My husband and I have been worried about him.

Never seen a wild snake eat a f/t.

He is not wild. He was CBB.

[snakesRkewl]

He is not wild. He was CBB.my point was why would you consider force feeding over a live feeding?
They eat live naturally, it's what they do.
I see you came to that conclusion though :thumbsup:

[Willow]

that weight loss in nothing....very normal and natural and no where near dangerous....i would also suggest live before even doing assist feedings let alone forced...and please dont think you cant go bigger then fuzzys for fear of hurting him...

Ball pythons have been known for even refusing food that isnt the right size for them....so if you offer him a live fussy and he doesn't take it, that doesn't mean he wont be perfectly happy eating a small live rat....

if you watch the rat and your snake during feeding...it wont get hurt....I feed all 30 of my snakes live all the time...as long as your paying attention, your snake wont get hurt. Keep something on hand (tongs, pencil, spoon) to shove into the rats mouth if it looks like it can bite your snake while being constricted (but normally the strike makes it pretty hard for the rat to do much other then die)

[Matt2979]

I know you're worried, but please don't force-feed that snake. He's probably in breeding mode and just has no interest in food. Besides, it sounds like he got pretty full for several weeks before he lost interest. Unless there is some other contributing factor (illness or such), he'll be fine if he doesn't start back eating for a few more months. I hate when mine fast too long, but it's pretty normal with balls. He'll eat when he's hungry. :)

[KY Reptiles]

I would offer him a live rat hopper, small enough not to do damage it bites him and big enough to catch his interest!

[AGoodwin]

Thanks for the replies. This is my first experience with any of my snakes not eating, so I guess I'm just a little more worried about it than I should be.

[Matt2979]

Thanks for the replies. This is my first experience with any of my snakes not eating, so I guess I'm just a little more worried about it than I should be.

LOL...you're not the first to feel like that! I had boas for years before I got my first ball. "Fasting" was extremely rare...'til really got into BP's, that is. :ack2:

[Randy F]

I believe the 10-15% weight loss is regarding a immediate weight loss, not that over a 3 month period off feed. Where I have never experianced a snake go off feed greater than 5 months, I know of a collection that did not eat for 8 months. The guy was getting out of the business and did not feed his snakes for 8 months. A friend of mine got most of the collection which were also infected with mites. It took him awhile to get all the mites gone but after 9 or 10 months off food, they all started eating and made a comeback. These are very hearty of a species. Try a smaller live rat and if he does not eat, try again next week, and so on until he eats it. I know I was very freaked out the first time I had a snake not eat for a couple months, now it only annoys me that they are not gaining size!

[JustChad04]

Amanda,

This is actually is common in male BP's. I have had my males go 5-6 months on fast before, especially around breeding season. Dont get stressed out as long as the python is showing signs of good health it is ok. Janet nailed it earlier that males sometimes after a big meal will go a long time before eating again. I also see that you said he is a little timid, So he might be scared of how you are feeding him his F/T rat. I would recommend feeding him a live mouse next time. It is smaller and less intiminating than a rat can be. Plus it is a good confidence booster for him. If he doesnt take it dont get stressed out like said before it is normal. Just watch for the warning signs during his fast (laziness, sluggish, weak when climbing, hanging on your arm, etc). and after all other options have failed then you can consider assist feeding.

Also, if he refuses a meal, dont feed him again for another week. Dont feed him the next day give him time to build his hunger.

Just let him get comfy he should eat eventually.

[hhmoore]

As others have said, the relatively short fast & small weight loss are not really of concern with a 2 yr old male.
First step is always to double check husbandry.
If you can't bring yourself to leave him alone, please consider assist/force feeding him a last resort (and one that doesn't need to happen for a few more months). There are too many alternatives to pursue with a snake of that age/size. If you don't want to feed a live rat, offer a f/t mouse...a lot of BPs that go off f/t rats will take f/t mice. If you don't have an emotional connection with mice, you could always offer a live mouse (even more will take those); but I've had too many decide that they like live mice to offer that suggestion lightly.

[R. Eventide]

I believe the 10-15% weight loss is regarding a immediate weight loss, not that over a 3 month period off feed.

This. While ballpark numbers are good to have in your head, ya need to make sure you have a point of reference. Ten to 15% weight loss over a couple weeks is a completely different issue than 10 to 15% over a year. :)

I just had my male G-stripe start eating again after a nine-month fast. Over those months, he only lost 15% of his body weight. I'm finally used to BP fasting, so I wasn't worried.

As others have said, force-feeding should be a last resort.

Also, if you're worried about weight loss and/or when to consider force- or assist-feeding, my vet said to check muscle tone. If you run your finger from dorsal to ventral scales, you should be able to feel a couple ridges of muscle running parallel to the length of the snake. Another way to check muscle tone is to test how well the snake can grip things. See if he can grip your fingers with the end of his tail and if he will wrap around your arm if laid across it--things like that. If you don't feel the muscles and/or he seems to have trouble gripping, then it's time to consider assist- or force-feeding. But as long as the snake's muscle tone seems good and as long as he hasn't had an extreme, sudden drop in weight, he's probably just being a pill. ;)

[hhmoore]

I mean no disrespect, but waiting too long to assist/force is just as bad (if not worse) than not waiting long enough - IMO, of course. The difference is that too soon is unnecessary; while too late is....well....too late.

[Double B Reptiles]

LOL...you're not the first to feel like that! I had boas for years before I got my first ball. "Fasting" was extremely rare...'til really got into BP's, that is. :ack2:

Hahahaha Same here man. I had some big boas that would eat regardless of the size of food. If they could take it down, they were eating it. Now that I have switched completely to ball pythons, I have a much smaller feeding bill to say the least. A lot less bite marks on my hands as well. :thumbsup:

[AGoodwin]

..... If you don't want to feed a live rat, offer a f/t mouse...a lot of BPs that go off f/t rats will take f/t mice.......


Thanks so much! We wound up buying a fuzzy rat but before we even got home we decided that we couldn't go through with feeding it, so we stopped and picked up a frozen mouse. Sure enough, he took it! We will continue to feed him mice for a few weeks to get his weight back up and then try and switch him back to rats.

So long story short, Beau finally ate, and we now have a pet rat that we have named Lucky. We will just have to make sure we wash our hands before handling the snakes now.

[Matt2979]

I guess "Lucky" really is lucky!!! :rofl:

Congrats on getting your boy to eat! But rather than waiting a few weeks to try to switch him back, you might try following a mouse with a rat. I've had some success doing this (4 BP's in the last few months) so I'd say it's worth a shot. Either way, glad to hear that he's eating and not stressing you out so badly!! :D

[AGoodwin]

Great news. This week Beau ate a FT rat! No hesitation! So glad he is eating again! More great news. The new mojave male we got on the 29th ate for us for the first time. He was on live before we got him so we were worried it would be hard to switch him to F/T. Just a little more than two weeks and he took one!

[Focal]

Congrats!!

[Helenthereef]

"Hunger" - the greatest appetiser! :thumbsup: