Vince, selling leopard geckos

[MikeF]

He is a fraud, and I wouldnt do any buisiness with this guy. He doesnt even know the meanings of the supposed morphs he is trying to sell the leopard geckos as. He was asked about it, and said " i dont know the defenition". How can he be selling reptiles he cant even classify???? I wouldnt personally trust this guy. I wouldnt even believe any pics you saw, from talking to him, it seems like he doesnt know anything about them, and he probably just took the pics from a website.
Mike.

[Vince]

He was going nuts in some chat room claiming I was over chargeing. I have done bussiness on this site befor buddy and have traded geckos and have feed back to prove it. my photos are genuine and there is no need for you to post this false slander against me. I do not false advertise and have pictures to back up every thing I am trying to sell. and please everyone take his post for what its worth , he is childishly badmouthing me. becuse he was upset about the price I am trying to sell my geckos for. im sorry he had to waste space on the BOI. and please show some proof that I am stealing pictures off of websites or proof of anything else that you wrongfuly accused me of, people like you give the herp bussiness a bad name.

[MikeF]

4 OF THE 5 GECKOS HAVE SKINNY TAILS, MEANING THEY ARE UNDERFED. ONE HAS A STUB TAIL, WHICH YOU CLAIM IS FULLY REGENERATED, YOU ARE SUCH A LIAR, ALL THOSE GECKOS ARE UNDERWEIGHT, AND PLAIN NORMAL, EXCEPT FOR ONE PATTERNLESS. DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT BUY FROM THIS CREEP!!!!

[Vince]

these geckos are heatly and eating like crazy , they are comeing out of a hibernation period. to stimulate breeding. I have over 30 geckos and none are under feed or sick. I have pictures to back all of this up, email for pics as there are to big to post. and please check out my feedback and the compliments about my leopard geckos. your attempts to claim me as a fraud and creep are baseless. i beg you show some proof. come on why would you try to tarnish the little reputation i have. I am just a small breeder/hobbyist , trying to make a little extra christmas money by selling off a few of my breeders. this is un called for.

[MikeF]

Also, he is advertising as jungles, they are normals, I have seen the pics, and have shown them to many fellow herpers, who all agree, there are 2 that are underweight, and they are not jungles, they are purely normals, not a luecistic either, as you described the patternless to me. This guy was a barrell full of lies. He told me the tail was fully regenerated, it is halfway there tops. He hasnt told me one straight, or turthful answer, Id steer clear.

[Vince]

dude end this, i have pics to back up my posts. my geckos arent sick or under weight to the point that it would affect there heath. come on everything your saying means nothing with no proof. some one let me know how to modify a picture so that it will fit and everyone can see they geckos in question.

[DThomas]

Mike,

You need to post your FULL name or this post is just going to get deleted by the Webslave.

Also, since you have seen the pics of these geckos, could you post the pics so we can see them?

[MikeF]

The Pics are to big to post,
Mike Fortier.

[BurmesePythonPA]

Here's one

[Vince]

geckos where sold to a happy buyer that is not a part of the fauna community at the price of 175.00. I will have another breeding group up for sale in a few weeks that way there is no gawkers claiming under weight. as many people told me in the aol chat room for reptiles that these are not jungles rather they are high yellow a mistake on my part as i did not know the rule of the jungle phase that the tail has to have a pattern. this info has been passed on to the buyer. and i hope all of this none sence does not affect any future bussiness. like i said befor i am jus a hobbyst not a big time jobber. sorry for the jungle/highyellow mix up. ill make sure to request the rules from tremper or one of those big breeders.

[KelliH]

4 OF THE 5 GECKOS HAVE SKINNY TAILS, MEANING THEY ARE UNDERFED. ONE HAS A STUB TAIL, WHICH YOU CLAIM IS FULLY REGENERATED, YOU ARE SUCH A LIAR, ALL THOSE GECKOS ARE UNDERWEIGHT, AND PLAIN NORMAL, EXCEPT FOR ONE PATTERNLESS. DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT BUY FROM THIS CREEP!!!!

Although the geckos in question don't look as fat as mine do (I feed mine a lot:-), they do not look skinny to the point of being diseased or anything. They look like geckos that have been in brumation for a couple of months. Also, the patternless shown in the picture does have a fully regenerated tail, they just look funky like that when there is no pattern on the tail. Just my 2 cents.;)

[Ken Foose]

I agree with you Kelli. I am also always amazed when people get mad at you for the prices you charge on YOUR property. If you don't like the price, then don't buy it. But to openly complain about a guys prices is just plain rude. I say get what you can for the animal, it's yours to sell for goodness sake.

[gmherps]

I'm not a Gecko man, and I was wondering why the tail looks the way it does.

[Vince]

thank you ken and kelli, i cant belive someone tryd to bad mouth me like this. and greg when a leopard gecko losses its tail it usely grows back abnormaly and the tail kind of looks like that of a fat tail gecko. its totaly natural.


I am glad i am getting support on this, i think The guy who started this thread was just in the mood for some good old fashioned bad mouthing.

I would never try to sell something without a photo to back it up
and I would never buy something with out a photo.

and its sad that the level of trust is gone, but the internet can be a dangerous place and you should always make sure you are getting what you have payd for. and this bord does a good job of weeding out some of the bad guys. and im happy to see that those of you who are honest and not shooting off false aligations havent labled me as a bad guy.

I am holding off posting my other gecko breeeding groups in order to get them to the peak of heath I do not want this to happen again.

and as far as price goes. this guy was saying up and down that he buys geckos like the ones i have for sale for 10 a peice off of kingsnake.com If i ever seen breeders like mine for 10 a peice I would be sure to buy a few and please send me a link to that breeders site, or give me an email adress I am interested in purchasing some.

[DaveyFig]

I really dont think the issue is the price. I think the big problem was the misrepresentation. They were sold as jungles, which they clearly are not. I understand Ken when he says to get what you can for the animal, but Ken is not the type to sell something as something it is not. If it were in fact a group of jungles then it would have been fine to get that price for them, however they are not. It is possible that the buyer bought at the price because they thought that they were getting a deal on some jungles, not an average price on plain jane normals. I am not saying there is a big price difference between normals and jungles, but that they might not have been so eager to buy if the ad stated that they were normals.

The one below the regen does apear to be sickly thin, and most of them apear to have skin still attatched to their feet from bad sheds. There is also what looks like very runny stool in the picture. These are some of the things that were brought up in the AOL reptile chat that was mentioned earlier.

[Vince]

"There is also what looks like very runny stool in the picture"

that is a dead chricket. and the buyer has seen pictures of all the animals he has purchased. there was no missleading or false advertisement. and you should stop pointing fingers , these geckos are 100% heathy. if you dont like my "plane jane" geckos then dont buy them, simpal as that , just becuse you would not pay the asking price does not give you the right to bad mouth me or my geckos. im not comeing to this thread any more, and i hope if someone attacks me on here to the point i need to defend my self please email me and let me know about it. this is getting out of control.

[Vince]

i just have to say i do have another pictures of the geckos we are all talking about. and other views and better angles , they are to large to post but if you email i would be more then happy to show that these geckos are not and never had been in poor condition. if you think i am a bad guy or a scam artist please check my feedback. what is better then the actual statments mad by people who i have done bussiness with.

[DaveyFig]

There you go with the price thing. I did not say the price was unfair, nor did I comment on whether or not the buyer was ok with the pictures once the truth came out about them not being jungles. I think this thread was started because of misrepresentation in the ad. You said yourself that you didn't know they were not jungles, and they are right in front of you. Maybe other potential buyers couldnt tell by the pics either, just by your word that they are jungles. Clearly that was a misstake, which is fine. I think you have done the right thing by sharing your side, and getting it out in the open, but I dont think that makes the original post less valid. Had the red flag not been seen by someone like Mike, then the buyer never would have been informed that they are not jungles. I look at it this way...If I can't sell it a year from now as what I bought it as only bigger, then its not something I need to buy. The buyer could not turn around later and sell them as jungles, and your ad did call them jungles. I am done for now.

[John Albrecht]

I've seen WC Leopard geckos before and in comparison to that the geckos in the picture looked mighty healthy to me. Exactly what I've seen in many peoples collections that cool down there geckos real well. If you think about it, those geckos might actually be healthier than a lot of the obviously overwieght geckos that are out there that we've gotten accustomed to seeing.

[KelliH]

those geckos might actually be healthier than a lot of the obviously overwieght geckos that are out there that we've gotten accustomed to seeing.

Great point John.

[Monte]

. . . on the weight issue. Too many leopard gecko breeders think that a huge kiester tail is healthy. I don't know if I agree at all. If anything, they are just fat tubs of goo.

Health is a lot more than just weight. And although I didn't take a real close look at those animals, they didn't look that bad to me either. Granted, the females didn't need a fork-lift to carry their tails, but it wasn't that bad.

I don't think that the negative post was warranted. In retrospect, it might have been better to not let your AOL chat Fight spill over onto the BOI.

Makes me have second thoughts about going on those sites. Yikes . . .

[Vince]

I am requesting that this thread be deleted, it was started becuse of one persons person dis like for me, he started this thread befor even seeing pictures of the animals in question , and that thread doesnt represent how i keep my animals or the condition of the animals i sell. I did no such false advertiseing and really think this guys name calling will hurt future bussiness or herp trades. the two deals i have done on fauna have went smooth and i couldnt of asked for better experanes. but this boi post was not calld for. i have done everything i can to defend my self against mud slingers. but if there is anything more i can do to make sure this whole thread gets trashed please i would like to know. and thanks for all the people in my support. the only people here bad mouthing me are the AOL chat room buddys. its pathetic guys really its getting you no where.

[Wilomn]

You've had a couple of respected names back you up. That speaks well for you. I wouldn't worry too much about this thread especially if you continue to do business as you say you have so far. Your name will get out there as someone who cares and keeps his animals well.

I don't think I've ever heard of anything good coming out of an aol chatroom.

Keep your cool and do right by your customers and this too will be known, making this thread pretty irrelevant.

You can't please everyone and to try is an exercise in futility.

Wes Pollock

[Vince]

thanks for the good advice, wes.

[DaveyFig]

I agree that this thread will not hurt you. As long as you do make people aware of anything that was wrong with the ads and they go through with it then there shouldnt be a problem. You have handled the situation well and that speaks volumes. Good luck with future sales.

[Vince]

thanks alot dave, i was upset at first but i am happy how all of this has turned out.

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

Looks like this strayed off topic a bit. I believe the original poster was well within his rights to post IMO. The question at hand wasn't the health of Vince's geckos, but the misrepresentation of said geckos.

Link to Vince's ad in TRADE section of Fauna (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30042)

*note the date of the ad, and the date this thread started*

I have a few problems with the ad, first and formost just with the title. Now I suppose 'high end' is in the eye of the beholder, but a 1.4 group of geckos for $200 surely can't be considered 'high end'. I wouldn't really consider a single gecko at $200 'high end', but again I suppose that can be relative to the person. Next, if the pic posted here in this BOI thread is of the same group advertised in the Trade section, it's obvious there is some degree of 'mislabeling'. Although, the one Patternless does have some nice color, the rest of the geckos are no more than some nice high yellow/ normals. Now of course the trade ad could be an advertisment for a different 1.4 group of geckos, that also consists of 4 yellows and one Patternless than was shown in the pic, but sounds kind of the same to me.

As for the geckos in the picture and the health of, it is somewhat difficult to really get a good idea form just the one pic. It does seem some have some shed stuck to thier toes and a couple have thinner tails, but are by no means knocking on death's door. It is very true that just because a Leopard gecko has a super fat tail it doesn't nessacarily mean it's in perfect health. On the flip side of that coin, of course it also means that a Leopard with a thinner tail doesn't have to be sick. I think though everyone here would agree that if you were purchasing a Leopard from someone over the phone, sight unseen and the dealer says, ' I have one with a pretty fat tail and one with a pretty thin tail', I think we all know which one we would all choose. Not trying to stir things up just adding a few cents.....
Mike B.

[KelliH]

Hmmm..

How about this, Vince? Email me pictures of the geckos you advertised yesterday? The rainbows het albino, patternless het albino etc.

I'd like to see them.:)

kelli@hisss.net

[W.Wedeking]

Mike B,
I think Vince stated that the geckos in the pic had already been sold and that he had another set up for sale.


He is a fraud,
I do believe this statement right here is libel though. There is nothing here to suggest that Vince intentionally mislead anyone and I do believe he said he would or has informed the buyers of the mistake.

[DaveyFig]

Vince stated that they had been sold, but this is an ad from the day that this was brought to the BOI. Vince has also stated that he wont be selling more until they are ready in a few weeks.

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

The 'Fraud" comment by the original poster was both wrong and uncalled for, I agree with that wholeheartedly. However the original poster wasn't far off base stating that Vince misrepresented the animals in the least. The ad in the trade section posted one day prior to this BOI thread coming up is interesting to some degree or another...

Mike B.

[Vince]

Hey everyone, I have removed all posts refuring to the phases of these geckos. I am just stateing these are leopard geckos up for sale. and i will send pictures to interested people and they can decided these geckos are what they are looking for.

[Vince]

i take full responsabilty if i miss represented this geckos as something they are not. but i did belive they where jungles and i did have a picture of ever singal gecko. it was not my intention to try and trick someone into buying normal leopard geckos by saying they where jungle or rainbow or whatever else . when putting these geckos up against the others i have there are some that are more "jungle" looking and there are more who are closer to normal looking. I also am happy to say i informed the buyer of this group about this board and he checked it out. i asked him to register and post on here. but he declind saying he has no interest in message bordes. and only looks threw classifieds to try and find good deals. but again sorry if i offend anyone buy calling these geckos by the wrong name. these kind of patterns dont meen much to me as a healthy gecko. but again sorry for the missunderstandings , i am new to this selling over the internet thing and im glad this firt guy started the thread, i will never make this mistake again. thank you to everyone who posted , i can learn alot from you guys who have been doing this for a long time. thanks. and i hope you all have a happy holiday.

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

I just want to state that I have nothing personal against you Vince, and only posted the link and my opinion as just that. The big issue here as the original poster pointed out, not so gracefully might I add, is the misrepresentation. The bigger issue would be wether the misrepresentation was intentional or not. If you posted them by mistake, then the 'phase names' must have come from somewhere, maybe the person who sold them to you labled them as such, and you just passed it on. Possibly you just thought that's what they were and it was purely a mistake. None of the above makes you a "bad guy" or a "fraud" at all, maybe a little uninformed but certainly not a fraud. On the other hand, if you came up with the names to 'spice up' the ad using words like 'high end', 'rainbow jungle', or 'het this or het that' then there is definitely a bigger issue...

Also now your last post reads....(sorry not so good with the quote thing).

"""""" I have removed all posts refuring to the phases of these geckos. I am just stateing these are leopard geckos up for sale. and i will send pictures to interested people and they can decided these geckos are what they are looking for.""""""""""

Yet just yesterday, you stated that they were sold and the buyer was notified of the mistake???

I'm not quite sure what to think at this point.....

Mike B.

[Vince]

hey sorry for the confusion. I currently have 4 breeding groups that i am trying to sell off.

the first of witch , the ones that are pictured are sold. I do have others and i have 1 other patternless het albino with a regentail.

[Vince]

Hey i found this ad on kingsnake.com classifieds.

these geckos are being sold as jungle. I see no differnce from these to mine witch i thought where also jungle

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=10&de=169230 .

[Vince]

look at the 2nd picture. the caption says 1.4 jungle group. these look exactly like mine as far as pattern and color.

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

Vince,
The geckos in those pictures are not true Jungles either. Attached is a pic of a Jungle, note the unringed tail and neck bands.

Mike B.

[Vince]

LoL i was wayyyyyyyyy off, that is a pretty damn good looking gecko. see i was just compairing my geckos with other that where for sale on kingsnake and fauna. i thought what i had where jungles and well they arent. but i still stand by that no part of anything i said was a scam or sceem to sucker people into buying normals. by the way what is the price tag on the gecko in the picture you posted. just for refrance. i have mine for sale at 45 each. but i shoot high on the price that way i have room for counter offers.

[Vince]

hey , i just finished checking out all the other posts on the BOI and i am amazed, it is so great how all you guys watch out for each other , and share all these experances. i hope in the future maybe i could get a nice email explaining what the problem is instead of getting slanderd on the message bordes, but what i was doing needed to be adressed , i hate to missrepresent my self . one of you big gecko guys should put together something explaing the "Standers" on all these morphs and phases. it seems like there are way to many differnt ones. and somepeople might need a more exact explanation of what exactly makes a phase a phase.

[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

That particular gecko was sold about 2 or 3 years ago for $115 or so if I remember correctly. I kept the pic as the gecko had a awesome smiley face on it's head. When you look at the 'text book' definition for Junlge, a unringed neck and tail bands could mean a lot of things, like could a Hypo Baldy Carrot tail be a Junlge?, by the 'text book' definition it is, but some things are better labled as different things. Pick yourself up a copy of the Herpetocultural Libraries Leopard Gecko Manual and it explains a good bit of the phases and genetics. It is a tad older with some of the newer morphs not included, but it is an excellent referrence book and is relatively cheap. Also feel free to email me diectly with any questions regarding the matter and I will try to help all I can. Mike B.

[Sasheena]

Just thought I would post the advertisement that Vince compared his own geckos to so that the comparison would be here always... much more helpful that way!

[Sasheena]

here's one of the two photos from the ad

[Sasheena]

and the other one