Dan Felice - Good Guy

[Lee McMurtry]

I got two pair of cribos from Dan about two months ago. He was excellent in communication before the deal, even encouraging me to call so that he could answer questions over the phone rather than via e-mail. The animals were great-looking and arrived well packaged. Unfortunately one of the females died unexpectedly (now eight weeks after arrival). Sometimes that's the way life (and death) goes, but Dan is going out of his way to offer more info and to work out a deal for replacing her.
Excellent service before and after the sale, beautiful cribos - two thumbs up for Dan Felice!

-Lee McMurtry

[gila7150]

Agreed. I purchased a unicolor cribo that Dan produced in 2002 and it is awesome. He is growing like a weed and is perfect in every way. I can't wait till this guy is old enough to introduce to my unicolor females.

[nategodin]

In the past few weeks, I've seen a lot of messages on the KS.com Indigo forum saying that Dan has been selling Eastern/calico Unicolor crosses as Texas indigos. I have a hard time believing that a reputable breeder would do such a thing, but I don't really know the specifics of the situation. Is there any truth to these accusations or is some jerk with too much time on his hands just out to wreck Dan's reputation?

[gila7150]

The person you are referring to is the same troll that has attacked almost every person who frequents that forum. He is banned by Kingsnake on a weekly basis and comes back under a different name each time.
I know the person that the troll accused Dan of selling hybrids to. She owns Texas Indigos from other breeders and would know if she was sold a couperi/unicolor hybrid (which would probably not even resemble erebennus). I'd chalk that accusation up as BS
like everything else that comes out of that troll's mouth.

[Chris Kennard]

It is true. Dan bred his "calico" Unicolor Cribo to an Eastern Indigo and sold them as Texas Indigos. Although many people here will attack my credibility and character as they've dilligently tried to do on Indigo, it won't change the facts. I live about five minutes from Dan and at the time he was breeding those snakes I was a frequent visitor of Dan's. At the time we were on good terms and were quite friendly. Things are different now, unfortunately. In any case, he did not own Texas adults (or any Texas animals for that matter) at the time he was breeding his Eastern to his Uni. Dan has since gotten rid of his Eastern due to paranoia. He voiced concern that his house would get raided because the Eastern wasn't accompanied by a permit. Understandable. But I digress. When the offspring from the Eastern/Uni cross were hatched, Dan gave one to me which I returned shortly afterward. He sold one to my older brother who lives in N.J. which unfortunately died. He represented that one as a Uni/Eastern cross. He had sold a few to someone named Steve and voiced ALOT of concern that Steve might somehow find out that they were in fact crosses. I recently found out that it was Steve Fuller who obtained them from Dan due to a recent post on Indigo where TexIndigo Gal claimed to have been the recipient of three Texas Indigos from "Dan Felice's stock" as a result of purchasing the animals from Steve Fuller and Bobby L. I don't believe that Steve or Bobby had any idea that those animals were crosses. Dan misrepresented them, thus causing them to be unknowingly misrepresented by others. Unfortunately, it's my word against the world. I only hope that those offspring aren't used to pollute the captive Texas Indigo gene pool any further.

[Chris Kennard]

"couperi/unicolor hybrid (which would probably not even resemble erebennus). I'd chalk that accusation up as BS"

LOL! Well I guess that's it then Chris. You've solved the case. I guess if you, a pal of Dan's who frequents the Indigo forum where everyone is absolved of wrongdoing just by being a member of that country club (see "buyer beware, Fred Albury"), then whatever you say, must be true, lol. Were you there when he bred those animals Chris? Let me answer that. No, you weren't. I was. Lastly, I have seen the offspring from that cross and they not only could pass for Texans, but they DID pass for Texans, lol. So don't preach what you think. Preach what you know. Chalk my "accusation" up to whatever you want. The concern for keeping Drys pure in captive populations obviously doesn't rank very high on your list of priorities. People have a right to know they are being misled. What possible motive could you have for trying to thwart that? So let's recap shall we? Someone here inquires about those "crosses", you immediately assassinate my character, and yet know nothing about this incident other than what your pal Dan wants you to believe. Hmmm. Are you still angry about the thread regarding your pal Fred Albury?

[gila7150]

Since you seem to regard yourself as someone of high moral character, why is it that you sat back and said nothing while Dan allegedly misrepresented hybrids? You said that all of this occurred back in 2002 but you are only speaking out now because you and Dan had a falling out. Since you say that this is about protecting customers from misrepresentation and not about spite, what took you so long?

I've never met you, Fred or Dan. I only know the three of you through Internet forums. I purchased an awesome uni from Dan and I'm very happy with it. I also purchased a great looking yellowtail from someone else (this snake was in Dan's care and was shipped to me by Dan).

If your allegations were true I would find that very troubling. However, I've seen you attack too many people over the last year or two to just take your word for it without any proof.

If I trust Dan it's because he has delivered a healthy, well represented snake to me on two different occasions. He has followed up with emails to see how the snakes are doing in my care and offered husbandry/breeding advice to me on more than one occasion.
All I know about you is that you make immature, confrontational posts and rarely have anything nice to say about anyone. You're banned from Kingsnake on almost a weekly basis and return under different pseudonyms to harass someone else.
In the last year I've seen you personally attack Dan Felice, John Cherry, Fred Albury and Dean Allesandrini.

If you have proof of your allegations, I'm all ears.
...but you couldn't possibly expect me or anyone else who has witnessed your behavior over the last couple years to take your word for it, could you? Even if you were able to prove your allegations to be true (which I really doubt)...what does that say about you for keeping it quiet until just recently because your friendship with Dan has ended?

[Chris Kennard]

The answers to your questions can be found in my first post. Your first post here regarding me was vicious and slanderous and unsubstantially accusatory. Given that, why would I waist my time answering question from someone who obviously has alot of animosity toward me (as exhibited in your post about me here) and is also a pal of Dan's. You have made it clear that you regard me as a puerile troll without knowing anything about the incident. Again, you weren't there, I was.

"...but you couldn't possibly expect me or anyone else who has witnessed your behavior over the last couple years to take your word for it, could you?"

If you can find any post or accusation that I have ever made to be untrue, by all means post it.

[Anaconda Al]

Gila, you seem to have a fixation on Chris Kennard. You attacked him in the Fred Albury thread just like you have here, and look at the result of that thread. In the end, Fred Albury was evertyhing that Chris Kennard claimed he was. You, on the other hand, were the guy who stood behind Fred. What does that say about your "moral character"?

Here's one of your posts in the "Buyer Beware of Fred Albury" thread (you might want to read it to refresh your memory before you get too carried away and focus on Chris kennard, rather than what he's saying):

"Since Chris Kennard decided to make this about himself....

The people reading this should realize that he has been stalking Fred on the Kingsnake forums long before this transaction with Landon ever started. He has as many online names as he has personalities...Chris Ken, Tyranosaur, Lore, Boapit, Dingbat....and even Anti-Bury (that one should show his obsession with Fred).
He's harrassed Fred on the pituphis, boa and indigo forums before this transaction ever transpired) His issues with Fred are personal and have nothing to do with this transaction.

I honestly don't believe he has anything to do with Landon. Landon has always shown class on his forum posts (and as evidenced in his emails). It wouldn't suprise me if Chris Ken can produce an angry email....I'm sure Landon was frustrated with this deal.

Fred obviously dropped the ball on this deal and has now said he'll make it right. I believe he will.
Hopefully, him and Landon will be able to work out their differences.

Chris Kennard, what did Fred do personally to you that caused you to make it your life's mission to be his personal remora? (as another person on one of the Kingsnake forums so accurately described you)"

By the way Gila, I was "Lore", Chris wasn't. You might want to brush up on getting your facts straight before you continue with your character assassinations.

Albert Applebaum

[thomas davis]

well i dunno 'bout dans cribos, but i know he is a good guy i did a deal last year w/him and all went great,good all the way around
thomas davis;)

[Chris Kennard]

"I know the person that the troll accused Dan of selling hybrids to. She owns Texas Indigos from other breeders"

Yet another testament to Gila's lack of knowledge on this issue. I never said that Dan sold those snakes to TexIndigo Gal. Dan sold them to two other people who then sold them to her. One thing I should mention is that I find it interesting that this thread has come about the way it did. Yesterday I confronted Dan with a few simple questions on the Indigo forum at KS and was attacked by Oldherper in a thread resulting in approximately thirtyfive posts, only two of which were from Dan displaying quite a bit of slander and desperation. I have those posts copied. In any case, a post emerges here saying Dan Felice, good guy. I have no problem with that, but what seems odd is that he got the snakes from Dan two months ago and waited til one of those snake died before posting what a good guy Dan is. Am I the only one here who thinks there is something strange about that? Then someone conveniently posts about my posts on KS and Gila is right there to antagonize the issue by bashing me. Coincindence??? I have to wonder.

[Anaconda Al]

Chris Raden's role here. He has unconditionally bashed Chris Kennard whenever the opportunity arises, so don't count on him getting the facts straight. His agenda has everything to do with bashing anyone who dares to disagree with any of his fellow members of that self-appointed, elite group of Indigo fanatics on KS known as "the core". Fred Albury is a solid member of that distinguished group, and, even though Chris Kennard has exposed Fred as the fraud that he is (using facts), both on Fauna and KS, Chris Raden has always attacked Chris Kennard. If you dismiss Raden's "input" to this thread as nothing more than a personal attack on Kennard, an objective process in truth-finding will then be possible.

Albert Applebaum

[Lee McMurtry]

Wow, what a sh*tstorm...
I don't read the Indigo forum on Kingsnake regularly, but I went to it after reading the posts here. Chris K - I can't find any of your posts there that you've talked about here, leading me to believe that the KS moderator removed them.
Bottom line for me - Dan has treated me well in a deal that we did, and I, appreciating that, posted here my experience. Since the posts aren't there to be read on KS, I don't see how this could be construed as a response to that, other than to say that there seems to be an impressively high level of paranoia surrounding the whole thing. I live 3,000 miles from Dan, never met him, didn't know he existed until I saw his classified ad and talked to him on the phone, haven't talked to him about anythig other than my cribos since.
Second bottom line - if Dan really hybridized his cribos and sold them as Texans, that's wrong and should be condemned. If he did it, karma tends to come around again. But until somebody ACTUALLY INVOLVED in the whole thing wants to come forward and say that Dan sold them Texas cribos on "X" date for "Y" price, and here's the receipt, and on further inspection by people who know what they're talking about the animals seem to be hybrids rather than true Texans (and there are a lot of natural intergrades going on out there, people) - I stand by my post.
-Lee McMurtry

[Chris Kennard]

Nicely put. Nate asked a question directly pertaining to me as I am the only one qualified to answer with regard to the crosses. I answered him. Gila decided to assault me in his familiar fashion. I answered him. Had I wanted this to come to light on Fauna, I would have started my own thread. My apologies for being accusatory/paranoid with regard to your post here. As I'm sure you can understand, I do not regret my reciprocation to the other posts. Good luck with your Drys.

[Jeff Nichols]

For Chris K,

As one who has had at least 3 of these animals in my household and have taken the time to do scale counts and request observations on the photos that I had taken of the animals as well as ask expert advice with regards to their origin, I'm reasonably convinced that the story you tell is somewhat flawed.

In an effort to clarify the issue, did you actually "SEE" the Eastern and Uni hooked up during the time you and Dan were on speaking terms or are you perhaps going on what might have been told to you as you and Dan were having a falling out?

Just curious,
Jeff Nichols... Happy to be the spousal unit of TexIndigo Gal.:D

[Jeff Nichols]

For Chris K,

As one who has had at least 3 of these animals in my household and have taken the time to do scale counts and request observations on the photos that I had taken of the animals as well as ask expert advice with regards to their origin, I'm reasonably convinced that the story you tell is somewhat flawed.

In an effort to clarify the issue, did you actually "SEE" the Eastern and Uni hooked up during the time you and Dan were on speaking terms or are you perhaps going on what might have been told to you as you and Dan were having a falling out?

Just curious,
Jeff Nichols... Happy to be the spousal unit of TexIndigo Gal.:D

[Chris Kennard]

Flawed how,lol? I was a regular guest at Dan's house and saw those snakes on a regular bases. Did I take a microscope and invade the snakes' privacy to see if there was penetration? No, I didn't. Did I ever once see a Texas Indigo in his collection? No, I didn't. You do the math. Why do you suppose that Dan sold one of those offspring to my brother as a Uni/Eastern Indigo cross? I'd be happy to give you my brother's phone number privately. How do you suppose I know that one of the parents was referred to as a "calico" Uni? I myself was the recipient of one of those little gems but gave it back shortly thereafter. I jokingly called Dan's secret "Project Bluebook", a name which Dan readily adopted. As far as what I "might have been told"...didn't happen. In a recent post on the Indigo forum where I asked Dan several questions about those crosses, I was met with alot of resistance by Oldherper. The thread was about thirty-five posts strong, only two of them by Dan. In his first post which addressed none of the issues (mirrored by the second post), Dan stated that he lied to me two years ago in what I guess was a big scheme to make me think that he was breeding crosses while hiding and secretly breeding true Texans somewhere else in the tiny abode, lol. His response was nothing more than character assassination. Here is Dan's frantic response...

Posted by: dan felice at Tue Dec 9 08:50:02 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email
Message ]

"yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago precisely for
the reason you constantly demonstrate here.....YOUR A BIG MOUTH!!! you sound
like an 11 year old girl! and btw, who made you prosecutor and answerable to
anyway????? are you like an idiot or something mr. 'i'll save you guys'? WE know
what's going on, YOU don't and that's the way WE like it. too bad you weren't
born in 1929......you would've been PERFECT hitler youth material. you know, the
little snitches that ran around telling on everyone in town? you're a FREAKIN'
disgrace i swear to God!! and cunnard, that's how EVERYONE feels about you. your
word is WORTHLESS @ KS. you have succeeded in being despised and banned in every
forum there is. oh, and i guess you forgot your password again huh 'brain cell'?
that's why your on your 120th name change. gee, and all this time i thought it
was because of your loathful approach personality. now, a little refresher
course mentally challenged one: everybody's happy, you're in the dark [as usual]
and your 'services' are no longer required. OR, you can just keep fanatically
ranting like retardo boy. knock yourself out sport........."

Pretty frantic huh? I actually laughed at the "retardo boy" comment myself. Is this the "good guy" everyone here knows and loves? Even now he posts on Indigo making light of this issue with Oldherper. A sad day for captive Dry populations.

[Chris Kennard]

"WE know
what's going on, YOU don't and that's the way WE like it".


"and your 'services' are no longer required".


What do you suppose Dan meant by these statements? Who is the "we" he speaks of and the "what" that is "going on"? And how do they know "what's going on, lol? Can't I get in on this? Please?

Also, were there "services" provided by me to begin with? :confused:

[Jeff Nichols]

Frankly Mr. K.,

You are working hard to divert the original questions. What Dan might have posted and you collected in your defense is irrelevant. DID YOU WITNESS THE MATING THAT YOU ALLEGE OCCURED?
Yes, no.? Pretty simple.

I'm quite certain that most here will recognize a smoke screen when they see one.

Regards,
J.

[Jeff Nichols]

My signature above should read "Jeff Nichols" vice "J"

:D

[Chris Kennard]

Just curious redux.
Frankly Mr. K.,

You are working hard to divert the original questions. What Dan might have posted and you collected in your defense is irrelevant. DID YOU WITNESS THE MATING THAT YOU ALLEGE OCCURED?
Yes, no.? Pretty simple.

I'm quite certain that most here will recognize a smoke screen when they see one.

Regards,
J.

Yes. Frankly Mr N., if my previous responses in this thread weren't enough info for you to draw a conclusion, then perhaps your motive was not to get answers at all. I don't appreciate this response. I found it condescending to say the least. Enjoy your Drys.

Regards
C.

[Jeff Nichols]

The inferences, quite frankly, were becoming tiring. If you witnessed the mating of the animals then this is something quite different. I just wanted to get you to say that you had witnessed the Eastern and Uni hook-up. Any additional info on the incubation?

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[Chris Kennard]

I was involved in a lengthy thread here regarding Fred Albury here on this site and was subject to alot of unnecessary grilling and ridicule. I refuse to fall victim to that again. First you tell me my story is flawed. Then you tell me I'm working hard to divert the original questions after all the time I spent on that post giving you more than enough information to draw a sensible conclusion. Then you insinuate that my response was a "smokescreen". Then you say my inferences were tiring. Now you want more information? I told you there were no Texans in his house in 02. That should be ALL of the info you need. Let me remind you that I posted that for YOUR benefit, not mine. I gain NOTHING from this. Again, I found your posts insulting and arrogant, and I will not be scrutinized for being honest. It sounds to me like you had your mind made up before you ever posted here. So please, don't patronize me with any more questions in an effort to "dislodge" something that might lend creedence to Dan's ridiculous tales. There's nothing to dislodge.

Chris Kennard

[Jeff Nichols]

Chris,

My mind is most certainly not made up. However, in reading most of your posts I feel that you are making leading comments. Comments crafted to take a reader to the conclusion you wish them to draw.

Statements of fact such as... I Chris Kennard was a witness to:

1. A hook-up between an Eastern and a Uni at Dans house.
2. That hook-up produced a viable clutch that was incubated to term by Dan.
3. Dan deliberately misrepresented those offspring as Texans to his customers.

Those sort of statements go a long way towards substantiating your allegation, and putting you on record.
Anything short of that sort of account of the events is not sufficient to lay to rest other possibilities.

I would offer that you do have something to gain here. You and Dan appear to have had a falling out. Circumstances of which are none of my business, but vindictiveness can be a powerful motive.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[Chris Kennard]

"My mind is most certainly not made up. However, in reading most of your posts I feel that you are making leading comments. Comments crafted to take a reader to the conclusion you wish them to draw".

Trust me, your "mind", "most certainly" not being "made up" is not a great concern of mine. Let me remind you that I originally came here to defend myself, not to cater to you.

"1. A hook-up between an Eastern and a Uni at Dans house.
2. That hook-up produced a viable clutch that was incubated to term by Dan.
3. Dan deliberately misrepresented those offspring as Texans to his customers".

These things happened. I answered the first, have stated the third, which means the second would have to exist, lol. A child could have figured that out.


"Those sort of statements go a long way towards substantiating your allegation, and putting you on record.
Anything short of that sort of account of the events is not sufficient to lay to rest other possibilities."


Record, lol. What record? Is that why you think I'm here? I didn't come here to lay anything "to rest" or to get "on record".


"I would offer that you do have something to gain here. You and Dan appear to have had a falling out. Circumstances of which are none of my business, but vindictiveness can be a powerful motive".



I am not here to "gain" anything. There is nothing to "gain" I've lost a friend who I happen to like pal. If thinking that I am being "vindictive" makes you cozy and warm inside because you think it lends creedence to that fact that your "spousel unit" is holding pure Texans, happy herping! But don't come on here with your condescending remarks and expect me to be cooperative. Perhaps you could answer a few questions yourself. How many e-mails have you and Dan exchanged on this matter? When was the last one? What was his side of the story to you. What was his excuse for not defending himself here? What was his response to your questions to him about selling my brother one of the offspring as crosses? What was his response to you with regard to "Project Bluebook"? If you haven't exchanged e-mails regarding this matter and asked him these questions, why not? He has had visitors from the Indigo forum in 02. Why hasn't he solicited them to testify that they saw Texas Indigos at his house. Why would I make up such an elaborate story about this isolated (hopefully) incident? Can you possibly be this dense? I think I've said all that need be said. Any more questions, ask Dan. Listen, I know it's no fun realizing that you've been had, but don't "kill" the messenger. Go to the source of the problem and start demanding answers on here from Dan Felice. I have taken the time to post at length on your behalf. Dan hasn't. Enough said.

[Chris Kennard]

I really don't need or want the answers to those questions. I am simply making a point. This is totally one sided and your putting the wrong guy under the microscope. Your "spousel unit" is the recipient of those snakes, not me. Dan produced them, not me. The fact that they are in your possession doesn't concern me. I don't need the answers to those questions because I know the truth. If you think that this issue is important enough to warrant answers to those questions, fine. Ask Dan. Unless he wants to come here and debate this issue man to man without any interference, then I am considering the matter closed on my end. I am convinced because of your one-sided handling of this situation and your cloaked insults and your lack of concern for a two sided debate that you have an ulterior motive for grilling me or that perhaps Dan is helping you compose your thoughts on this matter. Maybe I'm way off base, but nevertheless, you'll have to dig elsewhere for further info. Good luck in the future.

[Jeff Nichols]

Chris,

Your replies stand on their own merit. 'nuff said.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[battaboom]

CONCERNING ALL THE HOOPLA ABOUT DAN FELICE AND HIS INDIGO'S, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU THAT DAN HAS SOLD ME A NEW BORN INDIGO WHO'S PARENTS WERE BLACK INDIGO AND UNICOLOR CRIBO. HE SAID THAT IT WAS DISGUISED UNDER A SECRET NAME CALLED PROJECT BLUE BOOK, BECAUSE ALL INDIGO PEOPLE WOULD BE UPSET WITH HIM IF THEY KNEW HE WAS CROSS BREEDING INDIGO'S AND CRIBO'S. I TRUTHFULLY DID NOT MIND THE CROSSING SO I BOUGHT ONE. UNFORTUNATELY, THE SNAKE DIED. I PERSONALLY DO NOT HAVE ANY CONFLICT WITH DAN OR ANIMOSITY TOWARDS HIM. HOWEVER, WHEN I HEAR THAT HE IS TELLING A DIFFERENT VERSION ABOUT PROJECT BLUE BOOK OR NOT ADMITTING TO THE TRUTH OF THE ORIGINS OF HIS NEW BORN CRIBO/INDIGO, I WILL ALLY MYSELF TO MY BROTHER CHRIS, IN PROJECTING THE TRUTH. AS FAR AS I KNOW, MY BROTHER IS THE ONE WHO NAMED THE PROJECT. THAT IS EVIDENCE IN HOW CLOSE THESE TWO MEN WERE AS HERPOTOLOGISTS WHEN BREEDING TOOK PLACE. HOPEFULLY, THIS WILL SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS MATTER. JOE KENNARD

[Jeff Nichols]

Wow,

Isn't that quite the statement........

Regards,
Jeff Nichols:D

[Anaconda Al]

One would think that you would have something a little more profound to say at this point. You been asking for information, ad nauseam, to prove that your wife's snakes are, in fact, what you think they are. Well it seems to me that you just got what you asked for, yet you have absolutely nothing to say about it. What's the deal Jeff? Are you concerned with how you (your wife) will represent them if they are not what you want and may have to sell them?

Albert Applebaum

PS You can't be serious that the only way for Chis Kennard to know that those snakes are, in fact, crosses is that he had to have witnessed the copulating firsthand, can you?

[Jeff Nichols]

Just what is a "Black Indigo" I wonder.....

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[Chris Kennard]

Are you serious? How much time did you spend staring at Joe's post before you found that ridiculous loophole? Your agenda is quite clear. You certainly aren't concerned with the truth. Joe has been calling Eastern Indigos "black" Indigos for as long as I can remember. There is seriously something wrong with you. Enjoy those crosses!

[Anaconda Al]

Why hasn't Dan Felice put his "two cents" in here? Chris Kennard has explained his side of the story, aren't you curious to hear Dan's side of the story? I curious as to why you, or your wife especially, are not demanding some answers from the guy who is the subject of this thread. Why are you in such a hurry to discredit Chris Kennard?

Albert Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

This is very reminiscent of the Fred Albury thread where Landon got ripped off, I exposed Fred, then Landon attacked me, LOL!

[Chris Kennard]

Here's something for you to chew on Jeff...

""yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago precisely for
the reason you constantly demonstrate here.....YOUR A BIG MOUTH!!!"


Don't you find this statement a little bizarre? Dan's logic (his lie) here is baffling. He would have everyone believe that he concocted some intricate scheme two years ago to persuade me to believe that he was breeding crosses while hiding Texas Indigos under his bed where they would secretly breed so no one on the planet would know, lol. Am I the only one who finds this ludicrous?

[Jeff Nichols]

Albert,
If that is what you go by and if I may be so presumptuous...

Jeff........
One would think that you would have something a little more profound to say at this point. You been asking for information, ad nauseam, to prove that your wife's snakes are, in fact, what you think they are.

Ummm, never said we kept them, just said we'd observed them and did scale counts. I was just asking if CK had witnessed the mating that he alleges to have occurred. FWIW the scale counts did not support CK's contention. However, in his defense, I don't know what a cross might count out as.


Well it seems to me that you just got what you asked for, yet you have absolutely nothing to say about it. What's the deal Jeff? Are you concerned with how you (your wife) will represent them if they are not what you want and may have to sell them?

See above sir, I am as interested in getting to the bottom of this as you seem to be. Let the chips fall where they may.

Albert Applebaum

PS You can't be serious that the only way for Chis Kennard to know that those snakes are, in fact, crosses is that he had to have witnessed the copulating firsthand, can you?

Actually I can. I have both sides of the pancake.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[Anaconda Al]

The following was posted by your wife on KS:


"4 Shame 4 Shame 4 Shame on Bobl & Steve F

Posted by: TexIndigo Gal at Fri Oct 3 20:56:09 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

For feeding our addiction!

Today, Jeff and I received three BEAUTIFUL Texicans, further intoxicating us and insuring that we will NEVER escape the Drymarchon web.

Two girls and a boy ’02 Tex Indigo joined us today, like clockwork!

I was told to expect delivery before 10:30 a.m., and at 10:20 a.m., the UPS truck rolled up to the curb.

These three are apparently all from Dan Felice’s stock.

I first opened the box from Bobby Lee, and found inside the knotted bag a lovely, lively, inquisitive girl there. She ate a small mouse later this evening. She also earned, almost immediately, the Dry reputation as a sh!t artist.

Then I opened the carton from Steve Fuller and found two mobile pillowcases. The male quickly soiled the cage, and made two mock-strikes at me. Later, he ate a mouse. He also “decorated” his cage almost immediately upon de-bagging. A true Drymarchon!

The female from Steve, who looked close to shedding, did not eat tonight.

They are, all three, all lovely animals. . What hope is there for us? We are smitten.

B "


Excuse me if I assumed that you"kept them"! By the way, Jeff, WHO HAS THEM NOW?

You say "I was just asking if CK had witnessed the mating that he alleges to have occurred". It seems to me that you based your entire opinion on that one question. Do you have any friends that are a married couple? If so, and if they had a baby, would you have to have been in the bedroom with them 9 months before to witness "the act" firsthand, before you formed an opinion about whether or not "they had a baby"?

Albert Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

"FWIW the scale counts did not support CK's contention. However, in his defense, I don't know what a cross might count out as."

Pick a card, any card! The second sentence you submitted here is a far cry from the first. Am I the only one who sees a serious contridiction here? If you "don't know what a cross might count out as", then how could "the scale counts not support CK's contention"?

I totally understand why you feel compelled to prove me wrong in some way, shape or form. Your campaign is a futile one. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe that Dan hasn't e-mailed everyone he knows (including you) with horror stories about me. If I am such a horrible person, why was Dan my friend for such a long time? Hmmm, makes ya' wonder doesn't it?

[Jeff Nichols]

Actually, this is not a "campaign".

I really don't know why I waste time with it. I've seen the animals, I've scale counted the animals. I'm done. Enough.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

[Anaconda Al]

Again, WHO HAS THE SNAKES NOW??????????

Albert Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

"I've scale counted the animals."

That doesn't apply here. Enjoy those crosses! Take care.

[Chris Kennard]

Well it would seem that you've left on the note that would insinuate that my statements here are fictitious. That does bother me after all the time I spent posting for your benefit. Much like you insinuated that I selectively entertained questions, I must reciprocate. You have done exactly that. Perhaps you could be so kind as to lend closier to this dilemma by answering Anaconda's question as well as the ones I submitted in a previous post. ..

"Perhaps you could answer a few questions yourself. How many e-mails have you and Dan exchanged on this matter? When was the last one? What was his side of the story to you. What was his excuse for not defending himself here? What was his response to your questions to him about selling my brother one of the offspring as crosses? What was his response to you with regard to "Project Bluebook"? If you haven't exchanged e-mails regarding this matter and asked him these questions, why not? He has had visitors from the Indigo forum in 02. Why hasn't he solicited them to testify that they saw Texas Indigos at his house. Why would I make up such an elaborate story about this isolated (hopefully) incident"?

Also why do you suppose Dan has not refuted any of the charges brought forth in this thread? Perhaps the stories he has been submitting to everyone through private e-mail are just too outlandish. As Anaconda asked, where are those offspring now? Lastly, after reading all of these posts, is it in fact your contention that I am making this all up?

Regards...

[Anaconda Al]

You seemed to have left in a huff, apparently miffed at the questions asked of you. I don't see why it's that difficult for you to say who has those snakes now. Also, the fact that you are, apparently, unwilling to answer that question gives rise to the suspicion that you have something to hide. Why would you/your wife get rid of those snakes within only 9 weeks, after all the hoopla made over them in that KS post to the Indigo forum on October 3, 2003? Something does not "add up" here, and your apparent reluctance to comment any further only adds to the mystery. What's the deal Jeff?


Albert Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

Jeff said, and I quote, "Ummm, never said we kept them, just said we'd observed them and did scale counts. I was just asking if CK had witnessed the mating that he alleges to have occurred. FWIW the scale counts did not support CK's contention. However, in his defense, I don't know what a cross might count out as".

That certaintly led me to believe he got rid of them. Why get rid of them if he was secure in his mind that these are pure? Quite the conundrum. But what I find even more provocative is this post by Jeff...

Actually, this is not a "campaign".

I really don't know why I waste time with it. I've seen the animals, I've scale counted the animals. I'm done. Enough.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

Why is it that after all of the evidence I (and my brother) submitted, which was a far cry from being adequate enough in Jeff's mind according to his posts to support my stance on this matter, why is it that "seeing" the animals and having "counted the scales" is suddenly sufficient enough for him to lay this to rest when prior to that post he would only accept my witnessing the animals copulate?

Regards,

[Chris Kennard]

"However, in his defense, I don't know what a cross might count out as".


"I've scale counted the animals. Enough, I'm done".

Hmmm, interesting Jeff.

[dan felice]

this will be my 1rst and last post ever concerning this subject. [#1] no drymarchon were EVER crossed at ANY time! kennard just 'thinks' there were and 18 months later for reasons KNOWN only to him has decided to 'come clean' and save the drymarchon community despite the fact that he loathes everyone and anything in the indigo forum. or ANY forum for that matter. he is banned on a continual daily basis from posting anywhere in KS for his complete lack of respect and decorum w/ regards to other members. you have all seen him in his different disguises/name changes whether you recognized him or not. he NEVER stops! [#2] rob, who hides behind the names 'applebaum & anaconda al' has NEVER even owned a snake and wouldn't know a garter snake from a garden hose.......chris saw the actual copulation here in my home huh rob? well, that must have been QUITE a trick as the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs. but never mind the truth, you just keep parroting whatever 'cunnard' tells you to. these 2 guys have now posted OVER 200 times straight negatively here in fauna on TWO guys ONLY. myself and fred albury. i believe the words 'fanatic obsession' would come into play nicely here. those numbers are simply not possible by regular people but apparently it's the norm for the 'dynamic duo'. the numbers speak for themselves. in the thread bearing my name, they are responsible for fully 88% of the posts there even though they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about anything and it never involved them in the least!!! how and why is that possible? it's NOT! these are 2 very unhappy individuals that go around [talking to themselves in the thread] and looking to create TROUBLE nonstop. [#3] the LEGITIMATE animals in question were sold a looong time ago, were honestly represented and the book has long since been closed. this is apparently not good enough for frick & frack however. ????????? why? who the hell knows? they have their own agenda and motives apparently, relentlessly [and idiotically] pursuing a topic that they had/have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with EVER in the first place.......now you 2 boys run along and knock yourselves out some more. i [and others] are enjoying watching your 'rant & chant' show. i know YOU TWO think you are 'owed' facts but YOU ARE OWED NOTHING!! get it? i know you both as major mouth-offs/trouble seekers for some time [20+ years in 'cunnards' case] and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning. YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED! people warned me about you years ago to present and now i see that they were right all long. THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR. it's not even close...... so run along girls and carry your tales like 2 little snitches. you both disgust me!! the case is closed. except by you 2, who know absolutely the least. you guys are pathetic and have become laugh stocks. life---you oughta try getting one! oh, and Merry Christmas...... very sincerely, dan felice

[robin d.]

ok i dont know anything about any of you however, is this a bad guy thread? or inquirey? it really seems to be in the wrong place or needs to go attached to whatever post you are refering to..... i dont know what more to say

[brucestephenson]

What?

[Chris Kennard]

Why didn't you add this where it belongs Dannio? Hopefully the forum bosses will move this to the thread that has already been addressing this issue. In any case, let's break it down, shall we?

"this will be my 1rst and last post ever concerning this subject."

Of course it will. Once again you refuse to refute even one statement made in the other thread which is exactly why you started a new one, lol.

"[#1] no drymarchon were EVER crossed at ANY time! kennard just 'thinks' there were and 18 months later for reasons KNOWN only to him has decided to 'come clean' and save the drymarchon community despite the fact that he loathes everyone and anything in the indigo forum."

"You're lying. I know it and you know it. Perhaps you could elaborate on why I "think" (lol) there were.This is all spelled out in the thread about you which you have managed to avoid like the plague. Care to explain why you were a no-show while your buddies once again stuck up for you. How I feel about the Indigo patrons is irrelevant here, but I will go on record to say that I certainly don't loath them as you would have everyone believe. With the acception of Fred Albury, I have never pursued anyone who didn't attack me first. The only reason I pursued Fred was because of you Dan. Remember? We'll discuss that shortly.


"he is banned on a continual daily basis from posting anywhere in KS for his complete lack of respect and decorum w/ regards to other members. you have all seen him in his different disguises/name changes whether you recognized him or not. he NEVER stops!"

Let me remind you that this is not a popularity contest, your attempt at character assassination doesn't hurt my credibility. You often mistake credibility for popularity. Truth is, I have a clean slate, you don't. And you're right. When it comes to the truth, I "never stop".

"[#2] rob, who hides behind the names 'applebaum & anaconda al' has NEVER even owned a snake and wouldn't know a garter snake from a garden hose."

LOL! Yet another diversionary topic. Let's stick to the issue here, you crossing Drys and misrepresenting them.

"chris saw the actual copulation here in my home huh rob? well, that must have been QUITE a trick as the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs."

Is that the story you've been telling everyone, lol? Hmmm. Why did TexIndigo Gal say in a post on KS that they were from "Dan Felice's" stock? But let's pretend for a moment that your not lying (lol), that still doesn't explain where the crosses went and why you voiced such concern to me that Steve might find out that the animals you sold him were in fact crosses. And where are the unaccounted for crosses Dan? But I digress, this is one hell of a fish story you got goin' on here pal!

"these 2 guys have now posted OVER 200 times straight negatively here in fauna on TWO guys ONLY. myself and fred albury."

I'm sooo glad YOU brought this up. First of all, YOU are the reason both of us even know about these forums. Let me remind you that YOU started the campaign to "get" Fred Albury. Before I even got my computer you constantly bitched and moaned about your hatred for him and his posts, and just like you've demonstrated here for two years now, you solicited someone else (Antibury) to do your bidding! You orchestrated it all and now you have the audacity to come on here and act JUST LIKE HIM, LOL! How many times did you call me and say"Fred just posted, go get him"? How many times did you feed me with ammo such as information about Fred that you collected from Doug Taylor? Much like Fred, it seems your MO is to sit back and watch while others take your heat. But again I digress. The fact that we have only pursued you and Fred Albury speaks volumes and I'm glad you brought it up. If we were here for the "sport", surely you would see us in every other thread here attacking people. Not the case.

"i believe the words 'fanatic obsession' would come into play nicely here. those numbers are simply not possible by regular people but apparently it's the norm for the 'dynamic duo'. the numbers speak for themselves. in the thread bearing my name, they are responsible for fully 88% of the posts there even though they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about anything and it never involved them in the least!!! how and why is that possible? it's NOT! these are 2 very unhappy individuals that go around [talking to themselves in the thread] and looking to create TROUBLE nonstop."

You can translate the threads to fit your agenda all you want, it won't help you. Chances are, had you or Fred made any attempt to refute the charges brought against you, these threads would be much shorter. Let me also remind you that I did not start the two threads you are making reference to. The "trouble" you refer to was "created" by you. Let's stay focused Dannio.

"[#3] the LEGITIMATE animals in question were sold a looong time ago, were honestly represented and the book has long since been closed. this is apparently not good enough for frick & frack however. ????????? why? who the hell knows? they have their own agenda and motives apparently, relentlessly [and idiotically] pursuing a topic that they had/have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with EVER in the first place.......now you 2 boys run along and knock yourselves out some more. i [and others] are enjoying watching your 'rant & chant' show."

Legitimate, LOL! Huh-whu? What "legitimate animals in question" are you referring to if you claim to have hatched the Texans for someone else? This gets to the heart of the matter. And what were those "legitimate animals (lol) "honestly represented" as? Who got them? This would truly close the book on this matter and lay ALL of this to rest while making us look foolish. Why would you not post this information??? My only "agenda" here is to bring to truth to light. Yours, once again, is to resort to character assassination while completely avoiding answers or closure to this matter.

"i know YOU TWO think you are 'owed' facts but YOU ARE OWED NOTHING!! get it? i know you both as major mouth-offs/trouble seekers for some time [20+ years in 'cunnards' case] and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning. "

But I was told ALOT from the beginning by YOU! Is it your contention that 20+ years ago, people who were mutual friends warned you that I was a trouble maker and that's why you became such a close buddy and then cooked up some ludicrous scheme "in the beginning" to make me think you were breeding crosses, lol? Come on Dan, you can do better than that. As far as owing us facts...not so. Why would I seek "facts" from someone that has none?

"YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED!"

By who, you, or are you speaking for the masses? I can be trusted to tell the truth unlike you, and that's the issue here. Again, you confuse popularity with credibility. And again I remind you, I have a clean slate pal. YOU DON'T! I never sold an animal as something it wasn't.

" people warned me about you years ago to present and now i see that they were right all long"

Really! Name those people and please relay what they said. And why would you befriend someone you were "warned about" ,lol?

" THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR. it's not even close...... so run along girls and carry your tales like 2 little snitches. you both disgust me!!

Take a good look at yourself before calling us girls Dannio. You've hidden behind anyone and everyone you could pursuade to do your bidding, including me. You let Dean, Oldherper, Jeff etc. defend your lies while you sit back and do NOTHING. I am happy to "disgust" a dishonest person like yourself.

"the case is closed. "

Hmmm, let's see. You come on here and start a new thread to avoid the charges in the original thread, once again completely avoid any attempt to refute anything in it, do nothing more than assault our character while lending nothing substantial and say "case closed"? LMAO!!! I don't think so.

"except by you 2, who know absolutely the least. "

Quite the contrary! It is your victims (buyers) who know the least.

"you guys are pathetic and have become laugh stocks. life---you oughta try getting one! oh, and Merry Christmas...... very sincerely, dan felice"

Your "opinions" are niether here nor there. I have a life, and I'm sure my Christmas will be a pleasant (and honest) one. "Very sincerely"? That will be a first, lol.

All in all, your post speaks for itself pally. Why don't you go back to the original thread and answer the questions? Here's a few...let's start with the questions above...

1) What "legitimate animals in question" are you referring to if you claim to have hatched the Texans for someone else? This gets to the heart of the matter. And what were those "legitimate animals (lol) "honestly represented" as? Who got them? This would truly close the book on this matter and lay ALL of this to rest while making us look foolish. Why would you not post this information???

2) Why did you sell my brother one of those offspring representing it as a Uni/Eastern cross?

3) What did "Project Bluebook" refer to and why did you readily adopt that name yourself with regard to the offspring in question?

4) Why have you never once said emphatically that YOU did not cross those snakes?

5)Who did you "supposedly" hatch the alleged "real" Texas Indigo eggs for? How many eggs were there in that supposed clutch and who got the offspring. Surely this would lay this mess to rest.


6) Why did you say ""this will be my 1rst and last post ever concerning this subject." Is it because you knew your post would come under fire and you knew you wouldn't be able to "honestly" refute anything in our posts? Once again you have managed to assault my character while adding nothing of creedence to substantiate your claim that you are not lying.

My apologies for the long post people, but it's amazing that Dan even showed up here and I wanted to give him a chance to respond to these issues and lend closure to this mess right away.

Lastly... YOU'RE LYING DAN. FESS UP! NEXT!!!

[brucestephenson]

What?

[Chris Kennard]

In case anyone is wondering, Dan has decided to disregard the tos and start his own little threadypoo on this topic to avoid the facts presented here. Hopefully the mods will move it here? In any case, here's your big chance Dannio! Answer those questions and PROVE ME WRONG!

[Chris Kennard]

Sorry Bruce, I know how confusing this seems. Check out the thread entitled "Dan Felice, good guy". It will explain everything.

[Chris Kennard]

you said...

""[#3] the LEGITIMATE animals in question were sold a looong time ago, were honestly represented and the book has long since been closed."


Are you refering to the supposed "Texans" that you incubated for someone else and are those the ones that TexIndigo Gal was the recipient of that she claims are from "Dan Felice's" stock or are you refering to snakes YOU personally bred and sold? Certainly you represented your own line of Texas Indigos to someone (Steve and Bobby) if they are being referred to as "Dan Felice's" stock. That would mean that you would have to have had your own Texas Indigos in 02. So are you saying that the "Texas indigos" that TexIndigo Gal recieved from "Dan Felice's" stock are the same one's you hatched for someone else??? Did you sell them to Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee as YOUR stock or did you tell them you were hatching them for someone else? And please don't solicit anyone else to answer these questions for you. YOU ANSWER THEM!

[Chris Kennard]

before someone else comes along to ruin your day, lol. You said...

""so run along girls".

Hey Dan. Who's acting like a "girl" here (no offense ladies of the forum, just making a point)? Like you've always done in the past, you hide just like Fred and let others speak for you while offering nothing yourself! For years you've had a habit of soliciting other people to be your "muscle" on the forums because you are too much of a coward to speak your own mind. Are you still angry that I declined when you practically begged me to go after that guy you hate on the "racer" forum at KS? Did it ever occur to you that I got tired of being under fire by YOUR pals in the KS forums who were unaware that I was representing YOUR thoughts? You are a sneaky little weakling and you should be ashamed of yourself. Next time you want to attack someone with these types of insults (girl), make sure you reminisce about your own past and think twice before posting. Otherwise, fasten your seatbelt wiseass! NEXT!!!

[Chris Kennard]

In Dan's new thread (which hopefully will appear here soon enough) he states...

"chris saw the actual copulation here in my home huh rob? well, that must have been QUITE a trick as the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs."

So finally he admits to having no Texans at his house (I already knew this). Or would you like to edit that statement Dan? I never said I saw Texans copulating at Dan's house. I said he never had Texans there. The "adults" I was refering to are the Eastern Indigo and the "calico" Unicolor Cribo. Be careful Dannio. You don't want to mix your stories up. Focus!

[Anaconda Al]

It's a shame that your little thread was just moved to where it belongs! I guess your "complete lack of respect and decorum w/regards to other members" worked against you here.

I see that you've FINALLY mustered up the courage (after 45 posts) to speak on your own behalf. But, truthfully, after reading your comical "defense", I think that you were better off saying absolutely nothing.

First of all, let's take Chris Kennard and myself out of the picture, for a second. Chris's brother Joe Kennard posted a clear-cut example of how YOU HAVE CROSSED AN INDIGO SNAKE WITH SOME OTHER TYPE OF SNAKE, and you had nothing to say about it. You didn't contest what Joe had to say, and you didn't call him a liar. Why is that Dannio? I guess you have at least a little common sense?

If found it highly amusing the way you made the GENERAL statement that "no drymarchon were EVER crossed at ANY time!" An emphatic and absolute statement, indeed. But BY WHO Dannio? You certainly sound appalled, as though you were falsely accused of something, but why is it that you didn't say "I NEVER crossed any drymarchon........" ?????? Afraid to really "stick your neck out", are ya Dannio? Covering your a$$, are ya?

You'd love for this whole issue to be based on the simple question of whether or not "chris saw the actual copulation here in my home huh rob?" , wouldn't ya Dannio? Unfortunately for you, I'm the guy who chastized Jeff Nichols for trying to make that the issue, so you look pretty silly pretending that you thought that that's my reason for knowing that you are guilty as charged here. I have a much better, and much simpler reason for knowing that you are in the habit of crossing Indigos. Being a close friend of Chris Kennard's, I knew the details of "Project Blue Book" long before this thread ever came to life. I happen to know Chris like a book, and, although he may be a "pain in the a$$ at times", HE IS NOT A LIAR, and he certainly had no motive to lie to me about how Dan Felice secretly crossed Indigos. You assume that, because Chris might not be "popular" in your pathetic little circle on the KS Indigo forum, that he has no credibility here. Bad judgement Dannio!

You rant about how I can't possibly have any credibility here because of a string of "negative posts". I've only posted once, prior to this thread, and that was in regards to what a scoundrel Fred Albury is. Please excuse me Dannio if you thought I was "negative" in that thread. I was disgusted by the way Fred treated three differnt people, as shown in his emails to them. (If you have something positive to say about Fred, by all means, please do so now????????) For your information Dannio, some people actually do talk about scoundrels in a negative way. Why does that bother you? The best part about you bringing up Fred Albury, as though both of you are victims, is the ironic FACT that I wouldn't be here on this forum right now if it wasn't for you recruiting Chris Kennard, who, in turn, recruited myself, solely for the purpose of voicing your negative opinions about Fred Albury. You didn't have the balls to bash Fred yourself! Your email that Chris posted above says it best when you tell Chris that "his services" are no longer required. At the time you said that, Fred had already been exposed as a scoundrel and was no longer in competiton with you over Dean Alessandria's attention. (Brown nose!) At least do Fred a favor and don't pretend you give a crap about him.

You say that I "NEVER even owned a snake and wouldn't know a garter snake from a garden hose". Well I beg to differ little man! I probably caught, and kept, more garter snakes, by the age 8, than you have in your life. It's true, today I have Red Eared Slider Turtles and African Clawed Frogs, but even that dirty little secret doesn't prevent me from knowing your dirty little secret. Fess up Dannio, the truth will set you free! And, by the way, you shouldn't be mad at Chris Kennard for saying that you crossed Indigos, you should be mad at the "BIG MOUTH" who told him in the first place. Is this what you meant in your "YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED" comment? You should be very angry with yourself over this whole mess Dannio!

Thanks your the Christmas greeting and Happy Holidays to you! What coal mine will Santa be tapping to fill your stocking this year?

Albert "Rob" Applebaum

PS What was the girlie name you were hiding behind recently on KS to bash Chris Kennard ? Was it "Tash 234" or "Alice 657" or something else? It was funny to see how fast you hit the forum abuse button to have it deleted the second Chris exposed you. You are not in any position to talk trash about anonynymity on the web!

[Anaconda Al]

As for your claim that I do nothing but "parrot" whatever Chris Kennard wants me to say, guess again. Unlike you, Chris has no problem speaking for himself, and neither do I. You on the other hand (for 45 posts) used Jeff Nichols to "parrot" whatever it was that you wanted to say, and he/you didn't make a very good case.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, I had nothing disparaging to say about you until you opened your big mouth about me. I was content to play a limited role and question the guys that you were hiding behind until you crossed (no pun intended) the line. When you live in a "glass house" be careful who you "throw rocks" at.

Albert "Rob" Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

"[20+ years in 'cunnards' case] and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning.

""yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago".


Pick a card, any card. So which is it Dan? I was never told anything? Or I was told a fib? These are two completely different stories. Come on Dan. Let's debate! You didn't mind mouthing off on KS when you knew you could have my posts erased with a snap of your (or your spokesperson Oldherper"s) finger. Here you have to face the music. What on earth could possibly be stopping you from sharing the name of the person who you supposedly hatched Texas Indigos for, how many offspring were produced and who got them? Also why did TexIndigo Gal claim that the "supposed" Texans she got were from "Dan Felice's stock"? Are you willing to publically announce that you did in fact owned your own adult Texas Indigos in 02 that you bred? You could easily end this right now by answering those simple questions.

Happy Holidays!

[Chris Kennard]

On page four I posted the first of the only two posts submitted by Dan in the thirty-five post thread at KS where I asked some of the same questions I asked here. The following is the second post...



RE: p.s. & VERY LAST WORD EVER......

[ Logout ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: dan felice at Tue Dec 9 12:51:01 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email
Message ]

no cunnard, i don't know what you mean. i haven't a clue......you are beyond
hope at this point. i feel very, very sorry for you. LAST WORD SMOOTH: you were
never in the loop. EVER! you only have yourself to blame for that. for Christ's
sake, leslie warned me about your 'mentalness' the day she introduced us in '85
in john's grill. i don't know where your living but it's not in the present and
your knowledge of reptiles and their husbandry is sketchy at best. the next
snake you breed will be your first......for one example. you HIGHLY OVERVALUE
your own opinions that more often than not are unsubstantiated. in other words,
you deal in a fantasy world......a longtime habit of yours. i'm not dealing w/
it any longer......i have bigger problems to deal with. YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL
OUT OF YOURSELF YET AGAIN!!!!!! even the people in the pit forum [your alleged
forte] avoid you like the plague. what about that dn't you understand?......
btw, thanks OH, but please don't waste your time anymore on this buffon. i'm not
ever, ever again......


That opening statement sound kind of familiar Dannio, lol. In any case, I figured since Danny boy had this kicked off of KS before I had a chance to respond (just like the first post I submiited on page four?) that perhaps I would do so here. Thanks again Fauna for all of the opportunities that KS robbed me of to defend myself and respond to these accusations! So, without further ado...


"no cunnard, i don't know what you mean. i haven't a clue......you are beyond
hope at this point. i feel very, very sorry for you. LAST WORD SMOOTH: you were
never in the loop. you only have yourself to blame for that."

Why would I EVER want to be part of a "loop" that condones your actions? I'm happy to blame myself for disassociating myself with fraudulant behavior.

"for Christ's
sake, leslie warned me about your 'mentalness' the day she introduced us in '85
in john's grill."

LOL, this is precious! Who is this "Leslie" you refer to and was she there when you produced the snakes in question? Also since you hold "Leslie's" opinion of me in such high regard, you must be better friend's than we were. Therefore why not have her come on here and explain all of this mess you've created and explain how she knows anything about me and while she's at it, explain this alleged "warning", lol?

"your knowledge of reptiles and their husbandry is sketchy at best. the next
snake you breed will be your first......for one example."

That wouldn't explain why there exists an article in the Philadelphia Herpetological Society Bulletin archives that I wrote about a specific breeding that took place as a result of my "husbandry skills", lol. That happened long before you knew what a "husbandry skill" was, lol. What are your other "examples"?

"HIGHLY OVERVALUE
your own opinions that more often than not are unsubstantiated. in other words,
you deal in a fantasy world......a longtime habit of yours. i'm not dealing w/
it any longer."

Wrong! I don't highly overvalue "opinions". I do however "overvalue" the truth as the weight of the word "value" exists in your world. If those opinions are unsubstantiated, then why haven't you taken the opportunities you've been given to prove me wrong???

" YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL
OUT OF YOURSELF YET AGAIN!!!!!!"

How so?

"even the people in the pit forum [your alleged
forte] avoid you like the plague. what about that dn't you understand?...... "

Not the one's with integrity Dannio. The ones who avoid me do so for a reason. The same reason you are. What about that don't YOU understand?

"thanks OH, but please don't waste your time anymore on this buffon. i'm not
ever, ever again......"

Yeah, thanks Oldherper, lol! Great job! Hey Dan, what's a "buffon?

NEXT!

[Anaconda Al]

Dan felice has apparently "taken the fifth" in order to dodge some simple questions that might clear this matter up. "Mum is the word"! You are, no doubt, a "behind the scenes" kind of guy Dannio, and I wonder if you've run out of "parrots" to present your side of the story. What's the reason for being so secretive? Did you end up having to buy those snakes back from Jeff Nichols because they he realized that they were tainted? Why doesn't he speak on your behalf anymore? Is he pissed off at you? Why so secretive Dannio? Why are the "powers that be" on the KS Indigo forum not rising up to vouch for you here? Do they have nothing to support the comical "Dan Felice - Good Guy" assertion made here? What's the deal Dannio? Your silence only makes you look bad.

Albert "Rob" Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

I am bewildered that even as I write this, Dan's name appears under the heading "users browsing this forum". I've seen him lurking several times yet no response to questions that would surely put this matter to rest. Since you are watching Dannio, let me make this even simpler than I already have. You said, and I quote...

"the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs."

Fair enough Dannio. If that is true, then the offspring actually belonged to someone else. Why then did that someone else not sell the offspring? Why hasn't that person appeared here and why won't you divulge the name of the person you supposedly hatched those crosses for? Perhaps that person's vocal chords are still operational, lol. Lastly, what is a yip-yope? Is that anything like a buffon? Perhaps Anaconda is absolutely correct and the case is closed.

NEXT!

[Anaconda Al]

I don't know but, given Dannio's fondness for hybrids, my guess would be that it's a CROSS between a "yip" and a "yope", whatever they may be. I see no reason why Dannio can't answer that question himself, but apparently he, like Fred Albury, he has become the 'invisible man" in regards to his very own thread.

Albert "Rob" Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

I think the fact that Jeff Nichols and Dan have elected to be "no-shows" with regard to answering such difficult (LOL) questions speaks volumes here. The case is obviously closed. Anyone with common sense can deduce that Dan and Jeff are hiding something. Perhaps they just need more time to concoct a new angle, who knows? The heading of this thread should read appropriately...

BUYER BEWARE, DAN FELICE...BAD GUY

Enough said.
Regards,

[Anaconda Al]

It's very easy to deduce that Dan Felice and Jeff Nichols share a dirty little secret here. It would be easier to break into Fort Knox, than it would to get either one of them to explain WHY Jeff Nichols unloaded those crosses and/or WHO has them now. Both of these guys volunteered NOTHING about the transaction in question, and Jeff Nichols was as vague as possible when pressed for information. Dan couldn't seem to commit to saying that HE himself never crossed any Drymarchon at any time. The best he could do was to make a general statement that no Drymarchon were ever crossed. He seemed to have much difficulty finding and using the pronoun "I". We get the picture Dannio!

Dannio did a great job trying to explain how Chris and I are bad guys, but that did nothing to rebut the claim that he crossed Indigos. At this point I have to seriously question why Lee McMurtry posted in the first place. Why did he wait until eight weeks after the purchase, and why did he wait until one of the snakes died, and is it just coincidental that this same "volcano" had just "erupted" on KS? Knowing how Dannio likes to get other people so say things for him, was Lee's post a pre-emptive strike on Dannio's behalf?

After just eight weeks, one out of four of the snakes that Dannio sold Lee was dead. In other words, only 75% had survived (that's a "C" in my book), and at the time that Lee started this thread, Dannio had not replaced the snake. Why didn't you wait to post until you received the replacement snake Lee? Was Dannio's "communication, packaging, and delivery" that impressive to overshadow the fact that one of your snakes was dead after only eight weeks?

There's way to much mystery shrouding Dan Felice and too little participation on his part to shed some light on the matter for me to think that he isn't hiding some dirty little secret. Dan Felice - Bad Guy!

Albert "Rob" Applebaum

[Chris Kennard]

Since Dannio refuses to speak up (bad move D), I would like to ask one last question to Gila, Lee, Thomas and Jeff. How were your animals sent to you by the silent one? Was it by any chance USPS?

[Chris Kennard]

On a lighter note, I thought I would clarify one issue in my own defense. Dan stated, and again I quote, lol...

" these 2 guys have now posted OVER 200 times straight negatively here in fauna on TWO guys ONLY. myself and fred albury."

Not so. I'm suprised that Dannio forgot to mention the "negative" post on Rick Krumrine which Dan couldn't wait to "alert" me to in the hope that I would "go get him". I would not have known that thread existed had it not been for Dan. Dan was often my "alerter" and "cheerleader". Also Dan didn't do enough research to know that I did post a well deserved "positive" post in the thread regarding Terry Parks, who will always get a thumbs up from me and probably anyone who has ever dealt with him at any capacity. Sorry to rain on your parade Dan. Did I mention that those "other" posts were made before you posted your ONE post here?

These are not my opinions. They are fact.

[Chris Kennard]

While frolicking through the photo gallery at KS, I happened upon a photo of a supposed Texas Indigo by Steve Fuller. To recap, Steve is one of the unsuspecting recipients of Dan Felice's 02 Eastern Indigo/Unicolor Cribos which Dan sold as Texas Indigos. The date of the photo was labeled 7/20/2003. The photo is of a YEAR OLD Texas Indigo. The photo depicts what appears to be an obvious cross between the snakes in question. I have never seen a Texan with the head color of a Uni. I defy anyone to look at that photo and tell me they have seen Texans that look like that and share the head color of what is obviously indicative of a Unicolor Cribo, NOT A TEXAS INDIGO. The photo can be found by simply going to KS photo gallery, half way down the page in the search engine fill in the word Indigo, and go to the pic of the Texas Indigo by Steve Fuller. Or...
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=87642
Subsequently, I have recieved five anonymous threatening cards in the mail since this thread came about. Most, if not all, were sent by Rearfang (Frank). Frank is Dan's buddy. The connection is obvious. The first two were sent from S.Florida, where Frank happens to live. The third from N.Carolina. The forurth and fifth from Memphis and Newark, N.J. By his own admission in a post on KS, Frank was in Memphis the weekend the card was sent. Coincedence, lol? You do the math.
Enough said. If anyone can look at that pic and say that it represents a Texas animal, then the Texan you are compairing the photo to was probably created by Dan.

[Chris Kennard]

I would like to state for the record that I emphatically aver that that photo is in fact a pic of one of the crosses Dan produced by breeding an Eastern Indigo with his "calico" Unicolor Cribo. I saw the offspring, including that one. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that the snake in the photo is none other than one of the crosses produced by Dan. Also, if anyone claims that the snake in the photo is representative of what a Texas Indigo resembles, by all means, please posts pics of TRUE, VERIFIABLE Texans that are comparable.
Also, I forgot to mention that the death threats, which all came from different post offices, all donned the exact same postage stamp. Du-uh!

[Spilotes]

That pic certainly looks like the cross you describe. Ethics aside, its pretty interesting. I don't think anything should be sold misrepresented, I wonder why they weren't just sold "as is" with a description of where they came from and what they were?

As long as its out in the open, I don't see why its such a big deal. When people put a lot of pressure on mythical "purity" they surpress these sorts of harmless experiments.

Joe Monahan

[gila7150]

Chris, I'm just curious if you've ever seen an erebennus from the southern part of their range? I really don't think you realize how variable they can be. I've seen them as dark as couperi and almost as light as melanurus. I've seen them salmon colored on their venter and I've seen them almost white underneath. Have you seen erebennus from Mexico?
The photo in your link does not show couperi influence at all.

This is from the HERPETOLOGICAL JOURNAL, Vol. 11, pp. 157-165 (2001):
In Central America, Smith (1941) noted the existence
of hybrid zones between melanurus on one hand and
the taxa erebennus, orizabensis and rubidus on the
other. Additionally, juveniles and some adults of
erebennus, rubidus and unicolor display oblique dark
bars on the sides of the neck, which appear to be ho-mologous
with the marks seen in D. melanurus (no
orizabensis were examined). Although the sister taxon
to Drymarchon is unresolved, these dark marks appear
to be unique to these taxa, and can therefore be regarded
as a synapomorphy for these populations.

You asked for someone to show you a "verifiable" erebennus photo that is similar in appearance. I'm not sure how I can prove any erebennus photo to be verifiable in your eyes but here's a link to a very similar erebennus from a German Drymarchon website.
http://rubidus.bei.t-online.de/drym...%20erebenus.htm

I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this and that's ok ....but I really think you're wrong on this one.

[gila7150]

sorry, that link isn't working...try this one:
http://biology.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/Taxa/Drymar.htm
Scroll down and click on the second link under Resources.
Then click on the word erebennus.

[Chris Kennard]

Of course you think I'm "wrong on this one". Why wouldn't you? You're a friend of Dan's who has made it publically obvious that you despise me as per this post composed by near the beginning of this thread...

"The person you are referring to is the same troll that has attacked almost every person who frequents that forum. He is banned by Kingsnake on a weekly basis and comes back under a different name each time.
I know the person that the troll accused Dan of selling hybrids to. She owns Texas Indigos from other breeders and would know if she was sold a couperi/unicolor hybrid (which would probably not even resemble erebennus). I'd chalk that accusation up as BS
like everything else that comes out of that troll's mouth".

Now, given that you believe that everything that comes out of this troll's (my) mouth is BS, why would you entertain my post other than to attempt to lend credence to Dan's fish stories in an effort to discredit me? Never mind, I just answered my own question, lol.


"Chris, I'm just curious if you've ever seen an erebennus from the southern part of their range? I really don't think you realize how variable they can be. I've seen them as dark as couperi and almost as light as melanurus".

We're not talking about "dark" or "light" or how "variable" they "can" be. Those are crosses...period.

"I've seen them salmon colored on their venter and I've seen them almost white underneath".

Funny, I didn't see "salmon" or "white" in the photo of Dan's cross.

"Have you seen erebennus from Mexico?
The photo in your link does not show couperi influence at all".

I beg to differ.

"This is from the HERPETOLOGICAL JOURNAL, Vol. 11, pp. 157-165 (2001):
In Central America, Smith (1941) noted the existence
of hybrid zones between melanurus on one hand and
the taxa erebennus, orizabensis and rubidus on the
other. Additionally, juveniles and some adults of
erebennus, rubidus and unicolor display oblique dark
bars on the sides of the neck, which appear to be ho-mologous
with the marks seen in D. melanurus (no
orizabensis were examined). Although the sister taxon
to Drymarchon is unresolved, these dark marks appear
to be unique to these taxa, and can therefore be regarded
as a synapomorphy for these populations".

Post all the journals you want. It won't change the fact that the snake in the photo is a cross. Does the journal say that crossing an Eastern Indigo with a Unicolor Cribo cannot produce anything that resembles the snake in the photo? Of course not. But now the writer of your fancy journal can use the photo as a reference for what a true cross looks like. How cool is that?

"You asked for someone to show you a "verifiable" erebennus photo that is similar in appearance. I'm not sure how I can prove any erebennus photo to be verifiable in your eyes but here's a link to a very similar erebennus from a German Drymarchon website".

I couldn't access the pic, not that it matters. You just don't get it Gila. Nothing you post here will magically turn Dan's crosses into pure Texas animals.

"I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this and that's ok ....but I really think you're wrong on this one".

You can't change my mind because I know for a fact that they are crosses and have known it since the thread started and it is YOU who are "wrong on this one" (the difference being that I don't "think" so, I know so). I posted the pic because I know it's a cross and RECOGNIZED IT IMMEDIATELY! So answer just two questions Chris, although I doubt you'll answer directly or honestly.
After viewing this whole thread and the photo of Dan's offspring that I submitted here, is it your contention that after weighing the pros and cons of this thread, that you would buy any of those 02 offspring that Dan produced and sold as Texans and would you represent them as Texas Indigos with regard to future breeding and sale of further offspring from this lineage??? Perhaps you should re-read this thread and the testimony of my brother as well before answering the questions.

I know how much you want me to be wrong Chris because of your dislike for me, but I'm not wrong...you are. So sorry.

[gila7150]

After viewing this whole thread and the photo of Dan's offspring that I submitted here, is it your contention that after weighing the pros and cons of this thread, that you would buy any of those 02 offspring that Dan produced and sold as Texans and would you represent them as Texas Indigos with regard to future breeding and sale of further offspring from this lineage??? Perhaps you should re-read this thread and the testimony of my brother as well before answering the questions.
Would I buy them? Probably not because I prefer darker colored erebennus w/ salmon coloration underneath. I wouldn't have any concern of them being hybrids though, they're just kinda ugly IMO. That's like asking you if you'd buy an ugly boa....you probably wouldn't just because there are better looking ones available. I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are.
I couldn't access the pic, not that it matters. You just don't get it Gila. Nothing you post here will magically turn Dan's crosses into pure Texas animals.
I thought you asked for a photo...sorry to distract you from your ranting with facts. Here's the photo you can't seem to access:
http://rubidus.bei.t-online.de/drymar3.jpg
Anyway, I'll let you get back to your witchhunt Chris. I just thought I'd share some info in case anyone reading this was as unfamiliar with erebennus as you seem to be. Have fun.

[Chris Kennard]

"Would I buy them? Probably not because I prefer darker colored erebennus w/ salmon coloration underneath".

Probably not, lol? Because...blah, blah, blah...now you're just blowing smoke. You're too predictable.

" I wouldn't have any concern of them being hybrids though, they're just kinda ugly IMO. That's like asking you if you'd buy an ugly boa....you probably wouldn't just because there are better looking ones available".

Huh-whu? Let's stay focused, shall we? I didn't ask if you would buy them because of appearance, but with regard to the info submitted in this thread. Your drivel is suffocating.

"I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are".

Wrong. That's exactly what they are NOT, and you have nothing to support your little campaign to defend a creep who has a habit of getting others to speak in his defense while he clams up. Why does he remain silent? Glad you asked. Because he knows that anything he might add to this thread will be self incriminating. But by all means, please continue to speak on his behalf. But I digress. The fact that you are so wrecklessly willing to promote those offspring as pure speaks volumes about you character (or lack thereof) and business ethics. The fact that you "wouldn't have any trouble representing those as Erebennus" shows your lack of concern for the proper representation of snakes within the herp community, but more importantly, your lack of concern with regard to the purity of snakes in captive populations. Way to go pal. There's no turnin' back now, lol.

"I thought you asked for a photo...sorry to distract you from your ranting with facts. Here's the photo you can't seem to access:"

Thank you for finally admitting that my submissions are "fact"! That means alot to me. Thanks for the photo, which is totally irrelevant. Did you investigate the origination of that snake or the parents? Don't bother. It doesn't matter, lol.

"Anyway, I'll let you get back to your witchhunt Chris. I just thought I'd share some info in case anyone reading this was as unfamiliar with erebennus as you seem to be. Have fun".

Hmmm, lol. Almost Dan's exact words on KS, LOL. Perhaps he's dictating what you are submitting here. He seems to love the word "witchhunt". But where is the hunt??? I would liken your campaign to prove me wrong to a "witchhunt". Good luck!

[gila7150]

Did you investigate the origination of that snake or the parents?
No, I didn't figure that this conspiracy had reached Germany....but since this has gone international, it's a good thing we have you assigned to the case.
...Go get him tiger! ;)

[Chris Kennard]

LOL! Yeah, that's the only thing out of my last post that I would have attacked if I were in your shoes. Enough said. NEXT!

[Chris Kennard]

"Where is Jeff Nichols when Felice needs him? Since Nichols says he has pictures of the snakes that Felice sold him, why wouldn't he post them so that we can compare those snakes to the snake in Steve Fuller's picture"?

Heck with the pictures. I'd like to know why Jeff got rid of those "Texas" Indigos that his wife raved about upon their arrival as illustrated on her post on KS and where are they now? And perhaps Dannio can shed some light as to where the rest went. Perhaps the recipients of those offspring could shed some light on how Dan explained my presence on this matter since Dan himself will not.

[Chris Kennard]

" I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are".

I would like to lay down the sword, so to speak, and just ask that you answer one simple question.

How do you know that "that's exactly what they are"? In the interest of the herp community, I would hope that your statement wasn't based on the notion..."because Dan told me so". So...

HOW DO YOU KNOW???

[gila7150]

One more question you forgot....

Why does Anaconda Al (who's real name is Rob) get banned by Webslave and then come back on the BOI posting under another alias rather than paying the fine that was imposed on him?

I'll answer your question when you pay Webslave what you owe him;)

[gila7150]

Rob, like I said before....you lose credibility when you pose as a woman to bypass Webslave's $10 fine.

As far as Dan and I being friends....I've never met him so I don't know if I'd consider us friends. I've talked about indigos and Drymarchon husbandry with him on an internet forum and a couple emails. I purchased a unicolor cribo from him and I purchased a YT cribo from someone else that was in Dan's care. Dan was honest and shipped me healthy, quality animals in both transactions. He's always been helpful and friendly on the forums.
In other words, I don't have any reason not to trust him except for allegations from you and Chris. Neither of you have supplied any proof of these allegations and that picture just doesn't look like a couperi / unicolor cross to me by any stretch of the imagination.
If you were able to prove that Dan misrepresented hybrids I would have a different opinion of him but you haven't. I've seen Chris go after very reputable people in the hobby before without proof (and I'm not referring to Fred Albury). If I have a negative opinion about Chris it's because of the way he has trolled the KS indigo and pit forums for over a year using fake aliases and attacking anyone who doesn't agree with him....even going so far as to attack individuals for their efforts at indigo habitat conservation. It just gets old after a while guys.

[gila7150]

You're laughable Rob. Since you're pretending to be a woman on this forum, do you dress the part too?
Seriously, if you can't come up with the $10 for Webslave, you can mow my lawn and work it off.
Just a thought....when you're coming up with your next alias, try growing some balls and posting under your real name.

[Dr Owens]

Rob,
If you want to continue to post on the BOI, then just pay the fine. After all, you brought this situation upon yourself in the first place. Returning under false names and continuing to post will only increase the amount of your fine.

[Chris Kennard]

I didn't get kicked off, yet you avoid my last question to you like the plague. So lets just bypass your BS excuses and get right to the heart of the matter. I'll entertain a few of your thoughts and then perhaps you could extend the same courtesy to me...finally. First of all, I never attacked anyone on KS who didn't pursue me first or lie about an issue in question and I defy you to produce and display proof of any allegations set forth by myself that anything I have ever said is untrue. Furthermore, this is not a popularity contest as has been stated here many times. This is about protecting people from the likes of deceptive and dishonest guys like Fred and Dan. So far you have failed miserably at proving me wrong with regard to anything I've said and quite frankly don't belong here as you know absolutely nothing other than what Dan has dictated to you. You think Dan is a good guy? Fine. I don't want or need to take that away from you. You just go right ahead and keep thinking that in light of everything posted here, but if you are going to be part of the campaign to discredit me based solely on your hatred for me than at least have the balls to answer some real questions directly related to this thread. I tried to be civil in my last post to you and although I have seen you lurking several times here, you have evaded my simple question and attacked "Elbird" instead. Who's the troll? Wouldn't you agree that simply coming to a thread to attack and slander people's character without addressing the subject matter or questions is what defines trolling. I think yes! In any case, with all that painful "handling you with kid gloves" being out of the way, let's try this again shall we?..


" I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are".

I would like to lay down the sword, so to speak, and just ask that you answer one simple question.

How do you know that "that's exactly what they are"? In the interest of the herp community, I would hope that your statement wasn't based on the notion..."because Dan told me so". So...

HOW DO YOU KNOW???

[Chris Kennard]

You've had ample opportunity to prove me wrong. You have not. You could have ended this thread a long time ago by answering a few simple questions. I'll extend you the courtesy of giving you another shot at the title...

Where are all the offspring now?

Who did you supposedly hatch the eggs for?

Do you actually deny breeding your Unicolor Cribo to the Eastern Indigo?

In the past, you have at least admitted to the existence of "Project Bluebook". Care to elaborate on what it represented and why you so readily adopted the title for your "pet project" (no pun intended)?

Lastly, what was your excuse to all of the recipients of those offspring with regard to my presence on this matter? In other words, how did you explain this mess privately to them?

[Chris Kennard]

"I'll answer your question when you pay Webslave what you owe him".

It'll be interesting to see if you're a "man of your word" with regard to that statement. I mean let's face it, you really have no answers and refuse to answer my simple question, and I haven't even been kicked off! If I get myself kicked off and then pay a fine, will you then answer my question??? The bottom line is this...

I was there, you weren't.
I've provided evidence to support my charges, you haven't.
I am not posting here out of personal dislike or hatred, you are.
I am providing information in an effort to keep innocents from being misled in the future, you obviously are trying to thwart that, and could care less about anyone but yourself...and Dan.

Perhaps you have something to hide, who knows. Maybe you know more than you are willing to admit but you are in too deep at this point and must "save face", who knows. In any case, your efforts to win a popularity contest are irrelevant here. This isn't about popularity or about what the folks over at KS think of me. Chances are, if I am disliked by someone, they are either dishonest or they support someone who is. Enough said. Put up or shut up.


" I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are".

I would like to lay down the sword, so to speak, and just ask that you answer one simple question.

How do you know that "that's exactly what they are"? In the interest of the herp community, I would hope that your statement wasn't based on the notion..."because Dan told me so". So...

HOW DO YOU KNOW???

[Dr Owens]

Originally posted by ElBird
[B]I'd be more than happy to give you $10! As a matter of fact, I'll give you $20. However, I have no idea how to go about getting it to you. Please let me know how.


Quoted from the the warning which resulted in your suspension:
You will have to PayPal my account at webmaster@faunaclassifieds.com to lift the suspension.

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I obviously missed some drama in this one. Who is the "Rob" you are referring to?

[Chris Kennard]

"I obviously missed some drama in this one. Who is the "Rob" you are referring to"?


__________________
John Schmitt


Well that's the important thing isn't it? Forget about the people who were misled, which is why this board exists. Let's just focus on "who Rob is" and not attack the real issue at all. After all, Gila and Dan aren't going to answer the pertinent questions, so let's just talk about what's really important. Okay, so we know that Elbird is in fact Anaconda Al, who is Rob. Now where do we go from here fellas? Take the ball and run with it! Oh, and don't worry about the people who really matter here (possible future victims of Dan's misrepresentations). I think they've gotten the real picture. Dan Felice-bad guy. And Gila, don't beat yourself up trying to come up with an answer for my ONE question. I already know the answer because I know the truth. I just wanted to see you struggle with your response so that people could see what you are really about. At this point I think they know. Take care.

[Chris Kennard]

I noticed that you are once again browsing the forum. I also noticed that you took the time to respond to a post on KS made by Rob which was directed at Gila, not you, yet you still remain silent here. How provocative! In any case, once again you have resorted to slander and defamation instead of refuting anything as exhibited in the following post made by you...

uh rob, 'pantywaste' is spelled.....

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Pine/Bull/Gopher Snakes ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: dan felice at Mon Feb 2 18:27:29 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

like this, pantywaist and 'albirdy' should read albury. i think maybe you and kennard should try hooked on phonics for awhile for a fresh approach......you 2 have become TIRESOME and BORING! maybe if you concentrated as much on your OWN lives, you guys wouldn't be 40something year olds still living in apts? just a thought....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Reply To This Message ] [ Show Entire Thread ]


Now why would you mention me in that post when I had nothing to do with it? Why would you even respond to either of us over there and not here??? I have not been posting on KS lately. In any case, Rob and his girl CHOOSE to live in an apartment because they prefer the "low maintenence" aspect of living in a nice apartment (the rent is probably double what you can afford) as they have no plans for kids. What you forgot to mention is that you are around fifty years old and are a renter as well living in a tiny one bedroom house that is so small that your snakeroom is the living room, lol. Many of the fellas on the Indigo forum at KS can verify that. As for me, you are lying again as usual. I am a renter here, true enough. But I live in a five bedroom, three bath rowhome and own a house on Collings lake in N.J. that I rent to a GREAT family. You own NOTHING WITH REGARD TO REAL ESTATE! So before you try to smear how myself and others live, make sure you move into a palace. Also, regarding your "hooked on phonics" statement, you better brush up on your atrocious grammar skills before bashing ANYONE ELSES reading or writing skills. I've seen better writing skills in "grammar" school. How much dust has the "Caps Lock" key on your computer board collected?

Lastly, if we have become so "tiresome and boring", why won't you take advantage of this thread and put an end to this by proving us wrong? It would be sooo easy for you to do. Just reveal who you supposedly "hatched the eggs for" and where all of the offspring ended up. Please, I invite you to embarrass us. Take it away buddy! Just a thought...

[W.Wedeking]

Well that's the important thing isn't it? Forget about the people who were misled, which is why this board exists.

The credibility of one of the main accusers/attackers is very important to this and any other thread. This clearly shows the deceitful nature of "Rob" aka Anaconda Al (Albert Applebaum) aka Elbird (Eleanor Golden) and makes any and all of "his" posts worthless. No credibility...non. Not a way to gain the respect of anyone, including this board.

That fact that this doesn't bother Mr. Kennard just increases the lack of credibility and respect he has already earned.

Inshort, Dan Felice doesn't have to post here as his accusers/attackers have managed to discredit themselves.

[Chris Kennard]

Wendy, Wendy, Wendy. I knew you wouldn't be able to resist. I'm actually ecstatic that you are here on Dan's behalf. In any case, your agenda is so obviously the same as Gilas. What? No comments on the implications that Dan crossed Drys and misrepresented them? And what about...

"quote: by Chris Kennard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that's the important thing isn't it? Forget about the people who were misled, which is why this board exists.

You forgot to mention those "misled" people. What about them?

"The credibility of one of the main accusers/attackers is very important to this and any other thread. This clearly shows the deceitful nature of "Rob" aka Anaconda Al (Albert Applebaum) aka Elbird (Eleanor Golden) and makes any and all of "his" posts worthless. No credibility...non. Not a way to gain the respect of anyone, including this board".

If you say so, lol, it must be true. But was Rob being deceitful? I don't think there is one person here who didn't know who Elbird was. I know for a fact that if they didn't make it so difficult to pay the fine, he would have payed more than he owed. Isn't it funny how you waited to spew until after he was dismissed? And how much credibility do you credit Felice with? And please use references to answer that. Lastly, Rob and I aren't here for YOUR approval or to "gain the respect of anyone. We are here for something far more important, which is to keep people from being future victims of a dishonest person who who has no problems misrepresenting animals if he can make a few extra bucks doing so. Obviously that doesn't rank too high in your diary of ethics.

"That fact that this doesn't bother Mr. Kennard just increases the lack of credibility and respect he has already earned".

It doesn't bother me because we know the truth, unlike you. I think its funny that you, Gila, and Dan can't refute anything. Your only weapon is character assassination. What credibility have you earned with regard to this thread (not that it matters)? Let me remind you in case you forgot already. I'm not here to "earn" credibility and respect. I am here to alert the public and help newbies avoid being ripped off. What's your story. Never mind, I'm not interested.

"Inshort, Dan Felice doesn't have to post here as his accusers/attackers have managed to discredit themselves".

We finally agree on one thing. Dan doesn't have to post here. And to be perfectly honest with you, I am HAPPY to discredit myself to someone (you who sticks up for the bad guy...in short.

One last thing...

"yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago"

"and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning".

Hmmm. two statements made by Dan to me. Kind of contradictory, don't ya' think. How does that fit into your "credibility" agenda.

[Chris Kennard]

By the way, Rob (Anaconda Al) was one of the "main accusers" in the Fred Albury thread. Was his credibility an issue there. Even if Charlie Manson said the things that Rob said, it would still be just as accurate had the pope said it. Now does anyone care to sink there teeth into some of the many specific unanswered questions regarding Dan crossing Drymarchon?

[Dr Owens]

All posts made by ElBird were made in violation of the TOS and rules of this site. They have been subsequently deleted.

[W.Wedeking]

My post wasn't on anyones "behalf" unless you want to attribute it to being on the BOI's behalf.

It is a shame that you just don't get it Chris. You may very well be right, but both you and "Rob" have gone out of your way to discredit yourselves so bad that no one here would put any credence into anything you say.

Just because the majority of us had a pretty good idea that Elbird was "Rob"doesn't make it any less deceitful. Circumventing his fine is deceitful as well and if using Paypal is difficult for "Rob" then maybe he should take some remedial internet/reading courses. Unless of course, his real name isn't "Rob" either.

Your excuses are lousy, your accusations not credible and your lack of respect shows with every post. It's becoming pathetic really. But then, maybe that is your goal.

[Chris Kennard]

"My post wasn't on anyones "behalf" unless you want to attribute it to being on the BOI's behalf".

I emphatically beg to differ! Not that your post matters. To the people who count on this thread to avoid being ripped off, my posts do matter.

"It is a shame that you just don't get it Chris. You may very well be right, but both you and "Rob" have gone out of your way to discredit yourselves so bad that no one here would put any credence into anything you say".

No, you don't get it, and I am right! Your statement that myself and Rob have gone out of our way...blah, blah, blah is ludicrous and nothing more than your opinion, which I might add, is totally biassed and based on your personal feelings (anger and dislike), while my posts are based on personal first hand knowledge and experience on this matter. All you have are opinions. Like I told Gila, I was there, you weren't. If you think I'm lying, then you think Dan is honest. If you believe that, after carefully reading his posts that I have submitted as well as his own submission here (his one and only post), then I have to question your motive, agenda and credibility here. Perhaps you can share what you see in this thread that lends "credence" to the claim that Dan did not cross Drymarchon and misrepresent them. Isn't that the important thing here. You're so hung up on defaming us that you seem to have lost sight of what's important. That is protecting people from being ripped off and misled, in case you've forgotten.

"Just because the majority of us had a pretty good idea that Elbird was "Rob"doesn't make it any less deceitful. Circumventing his fine is deceitful as well and if using Paypal is difficult for "Rob" then maybe he should take some remedial internet/reading courses. Unless of course, his real name isn't "Rob" either".

We get it already. You hate Rob (yes that's his real name), blah blah blah. Get over it. You can discuss that with Rob. Since you seem to be so passionate about your cause, how bout explaining to the people, who this board is dedicated to protecting, why they should trust Dannio.

"Your excuses are lousy, your accusations not credible and your lack of respect shows with every post. It's becoming pathetic really. But then, maybe that is your goal".

Be careful, your anger is showing. Did I strike a nerve? Again all you have is slander. What does that say about you? In any case, I'm sorry if my "lack of respect" for people who scam and lie and for people who support scammers doesn't suit you. I wonder why. My goal is obvious, and much like the thread on Fred Albury, is to expose a creep for lying and misleading buyers. What exactly is your goal? Never mind, it doesn't matter. What do ya' say we get right to the heart of the matter and perhaps you can answer the question that Gila would not.

How do you know the snakes in question are Texas Indigos and not crosses?

[Chris Kennard]

I have seen Dan "browsing" the forums everyday here without lending a single thought here and without refuting anything. I have endured suffocating posts from a few of Dan's spokespersons who have spewed their condescending views about my "credibility", yet Dan remains a no-show. Then I find out that he submitted this post on KS...

RE: Breeders speak up...who's got what gravid??

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: dan felice at Thu Feb 5 17:04:32 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

nothing here dean, i took the year off so i could concentrate on other species particularly pituophis......gonna have a ton of bulls, sonorans and pines this summer instead.......oh! i almost forgot, i did cross a yt w/ a rubidus in hopes of producing what i'm gonna market as a 'christmas cribo'. place your order quickly cause they're gonna go like hotcakes!! whatever you do though, don't tell kennard or his sweetie rob'erta' because i don't think i'm gonna have enough to go around.....mums the word. tia!


WHAT GIVES DANNIO??? Is this the image you want to portray after the lengths that people here have gone to discredit me while trying to protect whatever image they think you have? You owe them better then this! So please, stop hiding behind your bodyguard (KS) and let's debate this and let the people decide who's right and who's wrong. You obviously have the energy to be quite vocal about me, so let's rock bro!

[Anaconda Al]

Hello everybody! It's nice to be back! I'd have been back sooner, but I couldn't move any faster than the cumbersome Paypal registration and confirmation process would allow me. If Wendy Wedeking was the type of person who spoke only when she "HAD A CLUE", she would know that Paypal deposited two amounts in my personal bank account, which I had to wait three business days to verify in order to activate my Paypal account. She would know that I then had to wait four more business days for the funds to be transfered from my checking account to my Paypal account. So, WRONG AGAIN WENDY (!), "computer literacy" had nothing to do with the delay! But, CONGRATULATIONS anyway, you've managed, yet again, to expose yourself as the childish and irrelevant troll that you are! Even if I were not "computer literate", that wouldn't change the fact that Dan Felice is still a Fraud! It's still true that Steve Fuller and Jeff Nichols were swindled into thinking that they bought Texas Indigos from Felice, REGARDLESS OF WHO I HAPPEN TO BE.

So, now that I'm here under my true name, I'd like to note that the following facts, of course, remain true, and have yet to be refuted, whether I am "Albert Applebaum", Eleanor Golden" or "Rob Dunleavy" (or the Pope for that matter):

1) Felice crossed an Eastern Indigo with a Unicolored Cribo.

2) Felice sold two of the offspring, and did in fact represent them as the crosses that they were to Chris Kennard and his brother Joe.

3) Chris Kennard and Dan Felice were friends, and Felice laughed when Kennard named Felice's dirty little secret of crossing Indigos "Project Blue Book".

4) Felice sold and misrepresented some of the offspring to Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee. He lied, saying that the offspring were Texas Indigos. He told Chris Kennard that he hoped Steve Fuller would not find out (How's that for "DECEPTION" Wendy?).

5) Steve Fuller, in turn, sold, and, most likely, unknowingly misrepresented, two of those offspring to Jeff Nichols and his wife.

6) After Nichol's wife bragged on the KS Indigo forum the day they received what they thought were "Texas indigos" from Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee, Jeff Nichols refuses to say whether or not he still has those snakes. Nichols also refuses to post pictures of the snakes.

7) Chris Kennard received five death threats in the mail following his comments on this thread about Felice.

So it's plain to see that Dan Felice remains deceptive and a "Bad Guy" who misrepresents what he sells, and the silence coming from the Felice Defense Team (Dream Team), aka Raden and Wedeking, remains deafening IN REGARDS TO THE ABOVE FACTS! How can you defend the guy without asking questions about those facts? My guess is that the Dream Team, having no morals of their own, know more about Felice's seedy ways than they care to admit, and they accept Felice for the guilty scoundrel that he is, and have NO interest in the facts, judging by their zealous and lame efforts to focus ONLY on attacking the character of Felice's accuser's while ignoring the "nuts and bolts" of the matter (ie: the accusations).

Notice how they show no concern for potential unsuspecting buyers who may eventually find themselves in a mess, resulting from a deal made with Dan felice, as Jeff Nichols and Steve Fuller have. Eventually, someone who is thinking about buying a snake from Dan Felice will consult this thread, and they might wonder why Felice couldn't get Steve Fuller and/or Bobby Lee to come here and say what a "great guy" he is (LOL!) and prove that Felice didn't deceive them. They might wonder why Felice mysteriously "took the 5th" (although he has been quite the "lurker") and conclude that he obviously has something to hide. Sorry Felice, but Raden and Wedeking (your mouthpieces) are certainly no substitute for Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee. A potential customer of Felice's might check this thread out and wonder why Raden and Wedeking have done nothing except rally to get information, that might prevent a potential customer from getting screwed, removed from this thread. He/she might wonder why Raden and Wedeking focused only on attacking the credibility of Felice's accusers (we are not liked on KS, we post under different names, blah, blah, blah), instead of trying to get to the bottom of the actual allegations ("Project Blue Book", what Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee think of Felice now, where the Crosses are now, whether or not Felice was behind the death threats, etc.). Hopefully he/she will take a look at Raden's attempt to discredit the accusers in the Fred Albury thread, rather than address the issues. Gee, what a coincidence Raden! Oh, and by the way, how do you like me now? Have you noticed that absolutely nothing has changed in my posts except my name? If I was deceptive and I hurt your feelings, I'm very sorry! Maybe you could "show up" and answer some questions like you promised now that I'm using my real name ?????????????????????????????????????

[Anaconda Al]

Rob Dunleavy

[Anaconda Al]

You made an appearance on the Fred Albury thread just so say that you thought Chris Kennard and I were "a disgrace to this site". Fred Albury turned out to be exactly what we said he was/is. In other words Wendy, our CREDIBILITY was and is as good as it gets, and YOU looked pretty bad by attacking some of Fred's "main accusers".

In this thread you came on to attack Felice's "main accusers". So far, none of the facts listed in my previous post have been refuted. Felice ran away, making him look as guilty as it gets, and the only thing that you managed to comment on was the CREDIBILITY OF FELICE'S ACCUSERS. What a shocker!

You Say:

"The credibility of one of the main accusers/attackers is very important to this and any other thread. This clearly shows the deceitful nature of "Rob" aka Anaconda Al (Albert Applebaum) aka Elbird (Eleanor Golden) and makes any and all of "his" posts worthless. No credibility...non. Not a way to gain the respect of anyone, including this board.

That fact that this doesn't bother Mr. Kennard just increases the lack of credibility and respect he has already earned.

Inshort, Dan Felice doesn't have to post here as his accusers/attackers have managed to discredit themselves"

I say: You need to understand that Chris and I are members of "this board", just like you. You need to understand that we were right in the Fred Albury thread and you were wrong. And you need to understand that we are right about Felice and you are, well I don't know. You came on here without showing the slightest concern for whether or not someone is ripping people off. What do you think about Dan Felice Wendy????????????

[Chris Kennard]

Nice to see ya' back Rob! This paticular thread seems to lack the level-headedness that you bring. That being said, lets, as you so adequately put it, "focus on the facts". Here are a few...

1) I was a frequent visitor and friend of Dan's at the time he was breeding those snakes and incubating the eggs.

2) I never once saw a Texas Indigo at his house and neither did his buddies from the Indigo forum who visited his house that year.

3) Dan never claimed to be incubating Texas Indigo eggs for anyone else at the time.

4) Dan himself announced (to me) the successful crossing of the Eastern Indigo with his "calico" Unicolor Cribo upon the laying of the eggs.

5) I saw the parents, I saw the eggs. Still never saw a Texas animal at his house and still no mention of those eggs being the product of someone else's efforts. Quite the contrary! The name Project Bluebook is born. Dan heartily agrees.

6) Dan hatches the babies that he now claims were hatched for someone else, yet labels them as "Dan Felice's" stock. I aquired one from him represented properly as the cross it was and at the same time Dan sells one to my brother...as a cross. I gave Dan back the one I got, which was the smallest of the litter. My brother's died.

7) Dan sold some babies to "Steve" and on several occasions expressed (to me) concern that "Steve" might suspect that they were crosses and reveals to me that "Steve" wanted to buy the whole batch. Hmmm, how would I know that? Any comments from Steve on that issue would be interesting.

Now those are facts...period! I challenge anyone to refute them!!! As for Wendy and Gila, you have made your agenda obvious. Why did you both disappear without answering any questions? I know they were toughies, but since you consider yourselves to be such pillars of the community here (even though your venomous posts display otherwise), perhaps you could share your thoughts with those who would view this thread in the future in an effort to gain FACTUAL information from your side as well as ours. Surely the unfounded slander isn't all you have to submit here. I don't want to argue with either of you, so let's debate and do so civily.

[Wilomn]

Is this a pissing match between an-al and kennard vs. anyone who, while agreeing with them in total disagrees with their methods or is a thread about dan's mis-representation of his stock? It's really getting hard to tell.

You two, an-al and kennard, seem to think that just because you were behind the outing of albury that you are some sort of detective gods here. You ain't. You may be members but, that does not give you the right to jump all over anyone who questions your methods. In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice but, why are you such arrogant antagonistic jerks all the time?

Lighten up boys.

Wes Pollock

[Anaconda Al]

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice "


Thank you Wes!

[Anaconda Al]

Steve Fuller recently made the following two posts on KS Indigo forum. In these posts, he displays an obvious uneasiness about whether or not his Texas Indigos are, indeed, Texas Indigos. If you read Steve Fuller's posts, keeping in mind the 14 facts (some overlap) that Chris Kennard and I have recently posted here, you will probably conclude that Dan Felice is the root of Steve Fuller's apparent uneasiness.



Origin of Texas indigos purchased from Mark Butterfield

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: steve fuller at Sat Jan 24 10:34:01 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I have an adult pair of Texas indigos purchased from Mark Butterfield, Cicero, NY, last June. Because the female appears to be gravid, I'm interested in their origin. Mark remembers purchasing them as an unrelated pair of hatchlings, but can't recall from whom. Help? Thanks.



"RE: Breeders speak up...who's got what gravid??

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: steve fuller at Thu Feb 5 20:42:38 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The excitement is building. Hope this doesn't jinx things. Winter in New England sucks and it's a pleasure to care for the snakes. Texas indigo from Mark Butterfield (I know it came from somewhere before Mark - someone tell me!) is gravid"

[Chris Kennard]

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice..."


Thank you Wes.

[Wilomn]

I'm glad you guys can paraphrase my statements to pat yourselves on the back but how about answering the rest of the sentence? You know the part where I ask you why you have to be such arrogant atagonistic jerks. It would be nice to see you mellow out a little if not everyone uses your methods of "ferreting" since you tend(read that as always) to go overboard.

So boys, gonna answer or just keep patting yourselves on the back?

Wes Pollock

[Chris Kennard]

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice..."


Again, thanks Wes!

[Wilomn]

I'm glad you guys can paraphrase my statements to pat yourselves on the back but how about answering the rest of the sentence? You know the part where I ask you why you have to be such arrogant atagonistic jerks. It would be nice to see you mellow out a little if not everyone uses your methods of "ferreting" since you tend(read that as always) to go overboard.

So boys, gonna answer or just keep patting yourselves on the back?

Wes Pollock

[Chris Kennard]

When I saw Steve's posts on KS, I felt bad that not one person was willing to even entertain his quest for an answer to the question of his Texan's origin. I was glad to see his concern for the proper representation of future offspring of his Texan. I truly believe he is an innocent in this mess and this is why this thread is so important. Let's keep it from happening again folks. It would be nice if Dan would reveal the names of those who acquired those 02 "Texans" from Dan Felice's stock so that, through process of elimination, people can rule out whether or not they wound up with snakes from that lineage.

[DISCERN]

that these two tend to go overboard. If Dan Felice has done the things they say, then that is wrong and he needs to be exposed. There are more mature ways though than going on Kingsnake under false names ( ooooo...whasssa madder.....can't give your real name? ), making posts that use swear words ( this is an all ages site, kiddos! ), and just being on an elementary school level.

If you guys have proof about all of this, then fine. People actually might start listening to you if you decide to be honest in your presentations. Maybe you can learn from this. :)

Take care!

Billy Fraser

[Anaconda Al]

Keep in mind, Chris, that Steve Fuller is appealing to the KS Indigo forum, which is made up of Felice's buddies. Mum seems to be the word over there right now and it looks like Steve Fuller is getting stonewalled as far as that question goes.

Based on his questions alone, Steve Fuller sounds like he's a responsible guy, and knowing that Felice sold him those crosses as Texas Indigos, hoping that Steve wouldn't find out, Steve was obviously an innocent guy who found himself in the middle of a mess.

We've see that Felice isn't the type of guy who's going to suddenly come clean just because Steve Fuller might be in a mess. I can understand why someone else who bought and subsequently sold Felice's crosses might be reluctant to even want to know at this point what exactly Felice sold them. Felice created quite the mess when he decided to secretly pollute the Indigo gene pool, and he'd be the last guy to make the effort to clean up that mess.

The only thing Felice seems to want to do at this point is recruit new blood to come onto this thread to bash us, while those 14 facts remain unanswered. (Yeah, I know you think I'm a "Bad Guy" Dannio, but this thread isn't about me. You tried to start your own "Bad Guy" thread about me on Fauna, but the Webslave combined it with this thread. I don't rip people off - you do.)

Again, why don't you get Steve Fuller to come over here and defend you Dannio? You just posted under him on the Indigo forum, has he not responded to you? Is there a communication breakdown?

[Anaconda Al]

You say:

"I'm glad you guys can paraphrase my statements to pat yourselves on the back but how about answering the rest of the sentence?"

You are wrong! We quoted you word for word. There was no need to "paraphrase" when you so eloquently acknowledged Felice's guilt. Again, THANK YOU!

You say:

"You know the part where I ask you why you have to be such arrogant atagonistic jerks."

Potential snake buyers who steer clear of Dan Felice in the future certainly won't see Chris and I as 'arrogant antagonistic jerks". That's only YOUR opinion.

You say:

"It would be nice to see you mellow out a little if not everyone uses your methods of "ferreting" since you tend(read that as always) to go overboard."

Excercise your rights Wes! Don't read my posts if you don't like my "methods".


Finally, I get a kick out of the thought that someone with 31 warning points is attempting to tell me how to behave. I do applaud you however for the fact that you referred to me twice in your above post as "an-al" and the Webslave apparently somehow found it to be within the "TOS".

[DISCERN]

why did you just go over to kingsnake and throw some tantrum about me calling you and your buddy on some things that you need some help in?

On the pit forum, you just called me some names! LOL! :) How funny!!!!!!!!!!!!

First, I don't know Dan Felice. You need to get that through your head.

Second, your credibility to others is being wasted by doing such childish things as what you just did. Bro....you don't know me. Nothing I have said is in any way not factual. Embarrasement doesn't feel good, I know, but you need to consider acting out your frustrations in a different way.

I will say this again. If Felice has done the things you say, fine. There are better ways to try to convince the " public" then going over to kingsnake, posting under false names, cussing in your posts, and then of course , being deleted.

It's like you say and try to promote an image of being serious about exposing Dan, but then you guys go and do what I just described. That is not a serious act of someone who really is being credible, believable, and mature. See what I am saying? People will not believe you!!!!!!!!!!! All of this is being wasted acting out in an immature way.

Take some time, calm down, read a book, relax, and if Felice did all this, ( which I have no clue on nor care to ), then figure out a way to present your thoughts rationally.

Take care!

Billy Fraser

[Anaconda Al]

you say:

"If Dan Felice has done the things they say, then that is wrong and he needs to be exposed.

If you guys have proof about all of this, then fine. People actually might start listening to you if you decide to be honest in your presentations. Maybe you can learn from this."

Next time Felice drags you over from the KS "Pit" forum to bash Chris and I, take some time to read the entire thread first. You would have read the facts that we've posted that show that Felice HAS "done the things that we say"! You might have figured out that, after 4,000 views without Dannio refuting ANYTHING, he really does "need to be exposed". You would have realized that this thread is past the question of "IF".

You Say:

"There are more mature ways though than going on Kingsnake under false names ( ooooo...whasssa madder.....can't give your real name? ), making posts that use swear words ( this is an all ages site, kiddos! ), and just being on an elementary school level."

Why don't you go cry about this to Jeff Barringer? And, by the way, my name is "ROB DUNLEAVY" in case you can't read the name at the of my posts.

Take Care

[Anaconda Al]

Sorry

[Anaconda Al]

You say:

"if Felice did all this, ( which I have no clue on nor care to ), then figure out a way to present your thoughts rationally."

This is a forum that is designed to separate the "Good Guys" from the "Bad Guys" Billy. It has nothing to do with exposing me for using multiple names to post on Kingsnake (LOL!). Again, please go run and tell Jeff Barringer on me IMMEDIATELY!

Let's see if I can present this thought "rationally", shall we? This thread is about determining whether or not Dan Felice is a "Good Guy" or a "Bad Guy". You just admitted that you "have no clue", nor to you "care to" find out the answer to that question. Therefore, is there a "rational" explanation for why you are here at all????????????

Take Care

[DISCERN]

Like I have stated over and over.....let's do this slowly, shall we?

I don't know Dan. Never met him and most likely never will. How could he have dragged me from the pit forum if I have never met him. How could I have stuck up for him if I have never met him? I haven't even talked about anything regarding him or this situation. I can't defend him if I haven't even posted anything pertaining to defending him to begin with. Do you not get that? I have read this whole post and do know what the subject matter is about.

If what you are saying is true, and I say IF due to a few things.

a) I don't know you, him, or anyone involved in this.
b) Just because this story is being told on the internet doesn't warrant proof.

if what you are saying is true, then by all means do expose him. I don't like it when people misrepresent animals, etc.

The thing you are failing to realize is acting like 8 year olds, by putting posts on kingsnake EVERY TIME he posts something, whether it is to help someone with a question regarding husbandry, etc., does yourself no good. People are not seeing you expose Dan with facts. They are seeing you cuss, swear, and say things that only someone with inside knowledge would understand. Then your post gets deleted all in a matter of minutes. Gee..........does that show your exposure of Dan? What do you honestly think?

I think you are upset that someone wasn't going to tolerate your immature behaviour over on kingsnake. Plain and simple, my friend.

In all, act responsibly, think before you type, and do the best job showing proof with facts ( which I am not saying you haven't here on this thread, just on kingsnake ). That way..people will take you seriously. Then, you may get what you set out to do.

Take care!
Billy Fraser

[Anaconda Al]

You sound like a nice enough guy, and you may not be here in defense of Dan Felice. But then again, neither was Raden, Wedeking, Pollock, or Nichols (LOL!). You might want to read the thread while you are here though in case Dan Felice mentions, on the KS "Pit" forum in the future that he has just hatched baby XYZ snakes for so and so is ready to sell. You could save yourself a lot of aggravation! In return, I'll try my best to avoid the "Pit" forum in the future. That, however depends on whether Dannio decides to continue to "feed the fire"!

Take Care

[DISCERN]

I will keep my eye out and thanks to this thread, I know about this situation. I am not impressed that he has not gotten back on here and refuted a lot of things being said.

I have seen many of my friends get misrepresented animals by various breeders and this is one subject that pisses me off. I can't stand it that there are people out there that knowlingly do that. If Felice is another one, then with tedious work and proper management of factual presentation, he will be exposed.

Take care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Billy Fraser

[Anaconda Al]

Chris Kennard received five death threads in the mail following his comments on this thread about Felice. We have no doubts about who is behind these threats. And, we'd like to see Felice over here putting his "two cents'in on his own thread. Hence, you see us every now and again on KS to let him know that we know what he's been up to and to remind him that he is more than welcome to take a stab at refuting the facts we've posted here.

The only "defense" of Felice that we've seen so far on this thread has been the bashing of Chris and I to (magically) prove that Felice hasn't ripped anyone off. In other words:

Rob wasn't using his real name
Chris is arrogant
Both of us are disruptive on KS

Therefore......................Dan Felice couldn't be a "Bad Guy"




Your post appeared to fall right in line with the above pretzel "logic" of Felice's other defenders here. I'm sorry if I truely misunderstood you.

[DISCERN]

I read about those death threats and has he contacted the police about that? What actions have been taken concerning those threats? I ask cause I don't remember if anything was said concerning that exactly.

Billy Fraser

[Anaconda Al]

Billy, I just woke Chris up (I thought he was awake - his name was still in the browser section because his computer was still on). I think he should field your question, and thanks for asking. Surprisingly, you are the first to ask!

[Chris Kennard]

First of all let me say that I have not been posting on KS for some time now and if you can find a post where I cursed, you are a magician. I have not done so on KS or here. That being said, I will not elaborate on the threats other than that I have not decided on what action will be taken. I am not the type of guy who complains to moderators and tattles etc. I do like to handle things myself in private. Perhaps that will apply here and if the guilty parties confess, no actions will be taken. But I know that I am dealing with spineless people as they didn't even have the coconuts to sign a name and there is no way they will ever admit to doing anything wrong. The first card even had a clipping pasted to it, lol. Puh-lease! In any case, I know who was behind it, and much like the behaviour that is displayed constantly by the perp in all walks of life, he got someone else(Rearfang) to do his dirty work. Billy, you seem like a good dude, even though you abhor me, lol (to know me is to love me), do yourself a favor and never align yourself with people like this...ever.

[Chris Kennard]

Since I'm awake now, no thanks to my esteemed colleague (grunt), I am curious as to why Gila has gone back on his word. He said that he would answer Rob's question when he paid his dues. Rob Paid, Gila was present (browsing) today while Rob was posting, then Gila disappeared. How provocative. He conveniently ignored the question when I asked it, and said he would answer Rob when he came back (when it was convenient to say so). Time to step up to bat Radin! How do you know "that's exactly what they are"?

Lastly, two questions, if answered by Dan, would put an end to this thread and this controversy.

1) Who did you supposedly hatch the eggs for?

2) Who were the recipients of any and all of those hatchlings?

[DISCERN]

Believe me, I am very careful on who I align myself with! LOL!
I am priveleged to know the best and most honest breeders I have ever met in my experience in this wonderful hobby. My closest friends in this hobby are such an example of what all breeders should strive to be like.

Thanks for elaborating as much as you can on this subject!

Take care!

Pits rule!!!!!!

Billy Fraser

[Chris Kennard]

"I'll answer your question when you pay Webslave what you owe him"


__________________
Chris Raden


He payed. Answer the question.

[gila7150]

Alright Chris...I'll do my best to answer your question and then I'm done with this thread. I don't have the desire or time to keep playing this back and forth with you every five minutes.
The reason I wouldn't have a problem representing those snakes as erebennus is because:
1) They don't show any characteristics of couperi and look exactly like Texans that I've seen from the southern part of their range.
2) I have absolutely no reason not to trust Dan.
Here's what I know about Dan:
1) He has shipped me healthy, properly represented animals on two different occasions
2) He's been helpful with husbandry/breeding advice whenever I've requested it.

Here's what I know about you:
1. You troll the KS forums under a new name every other day. Usually it's not to expose a "bad guy" but rather to disrupt the forum and draw attention to yourself with names like turdball and dingleberry.
2. You attack good people such as John Cherry and Dean Allesandrini for no good reason other than to amuse yourself.
3. You never offer anything even remotely constructive to the forums but I've seen you attack newbies when they ask simple husbandry questions.

When you make allegations against someone with no proof other than "because I know it's true".....it comes down to credibility, and you don't have any. If you could prove your allegations my opinion of Dan would change but I'm certainly not going to just take your word for it.
Even if your allegations were true....you say that Steve Fuller was an innocent victim and you were completely aware that he had been sold misrepresented snakes yet you said nothing for two years until your friendship with Dan ended. If you're statements are true...wouldn't that make you just as guilty as Dan?

Ok, I'm done....so offer up proof or just drag this thread out for 100 more pages saying nothing....it doesn't really matter to me. Obviously we have negative opinions of eachother and neither of us is like to change the other's opinion. I'm not interested in continuing a flame war with you so have fun and good luck in your quest.

[Anaconda Al]

Bugged out! Just like Felice and Nichols. But of course he did, as "birds of a feather flock together". Obviously. none of them care to explain why Steve Fuller won't come on here and vouch for Felice. It would be such a simple matter IF DANNIO HAD NOTHING TO HIDE. I'm sure that Steve Fuller would be happy to say what a great breeder/hatcher of Texas Indigos (LOL!) Felice was if he thought that Felice was, in fact, a breeder/hatcher of Texas Indigos.

I'm sure that Jeff Nichols would be here vouching for Felice, right now, saying what a great guy Felice is, IF he truely believed Felice's BS story.

Lastly, thank you Billy for your unbiased input on this thread. I apologize for initially regarding you as a friend of Felice's, and I apologize for trolling on your "Pit" forum. (Out of respect for you, I've banned myself from that forum in the future.) Thanks again!

[Wraith]

Originally posted by Boapit
First of all let me say that I have not been posting on KS for some time now and if you can find a post where I cursed, you are a magician. I have not done so on KS or here. That being said, I will not elaborate on the threats other than that I have not decided on what action will be taken. I am not the type of guy who complains to moderators and tattles etc. I do like to handle things myself in private.

Chris,

Far as I can tell, unlike your so-called friend, you may have kept your language 'clean' in regards to using profanity, but you are still a liar and a troll not only on kingsnake but this site as well (I'm surprised you haven't hit up at least one other site with your vendetta). You created two names and used them on kingsnake as recently as February 6, 2004. You posted under those troll names to mock not only OldHerper, but also one of the kingsnake moderators. And in one of the posts you posted against OldHerper you specifically stated in that post that you reported him for deletion which was the entire purpose of that post.


Author: Oldtwirpys [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Logout ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]
Date: Fri Feb 6 13:47:21 2004
Subject: Reported for deletion!

Twirp...



--------------


Author: PHWysnheimer [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Logout ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ] [ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]
Date: Fri Feb 6 13:39:49 2004
Subject: RE: Breeders speak up...who's got what gravid??

Folks -

PLEASE: For the love of god! Do Not Feed the wesident twolls.

It is all too appawent that their names and their behaviaw give them away.

Attention is what they want - don't give them that satisfaction.

Do not engage them.

Weport the posts made by them and move on.



The weport abuse link can be found on evewy post next to the name of the posta' of that message.


Thank You.
______

PHWysnheimer





Adrian

[Wraith]

Originally posted by Boapit
"I'll answer your question when you pay Webslave what you owe him"


__________________
Chris Raden


He payed. Answer the question.


No I believe Albert Applebaum didn't pay to have An-al's account reinstated. I believe it was Rob Dunleavy who paid if the change in the name in An-al's profile is to be believed. I think that, in my opinion, that alone would absolve Gila from his agreement.


The rules for the BOI are clear:


This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.
YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post.


So which is the real "full name" here? If it's the later then that means An-al has been falsely mis-representing himself all this time on the BOI and is only now posting under his real full name.

I should think, in my opinion, that anything he posted under a false name is totally suspect now. If he lied about his own name then why not some of the information he was posting in those messages?

I do not know how others would view this, but I think, in my opinion, that since he got caught posting under another false name Eleanor Golden (elbird) to get around his problem of a little $10 fine and had those posts deleted then perhaps the same consideration is warranted here for all the posts he made as "Albert Applebaum"?



Adrian

[Anaconda Al]

but I think that we already have a moderator here. Whether you like it or not, I'M BACK!

Do you realize that you keep repeating a pattern that only makes your buddy Felice look guilty?

Your only efforts are to have information deleted that portrays the real Dan Felice.

Gila isn't "absolved" from answering anything here. He's attempting to dance, saying great things about an obvious Fraud, while trying to avoid looking like a Fraud himself. WE ALREADY KNOW THAT HE'S LOOKING FOR ANY AND EVERY REASON WHY HE SHOULD'T ANSWER QUESTIONS HONESTLY HERE.

Chris Raden had a GGGGGRRRRREEEEEEAAAAAATTTTTTT experience when dealing personally with Felice. Good for him! So did Chris Kennard's brother Joe, when Felice sold him those crosses (except that they later died)! BUT WHAT ABOUT STEVE FULLER? Do you think that HE wants to hear Raden's wonderful endorsement of Felice right now? Give it a rest! Just because Raden says Felice is a good guy, does that mean that the "tough questions" (actually, they are very simple) should not be answered by your buddy Raden?

And lastly, don't come crying here about how your wonderful little Indigo forum has been disrupted by Chris Kennard and myself. Nobody cares!

[Chris Kennard]

"Alright Chris...I'll do my best to answer your question and then I'm done with this thread. I don't have the desire or time to keep playing this back and forth with you every five minutes".

Puh-lease, let's drop the melodramatics. And you once again completely avoided the question that I knew you would dodge. Again, how do you know "that's exactly what they are"? That is a pretty concrete statement that you should be held accountable for. Unfortunately for you, you can't be accountable for something you have no bases for and ZERO knowledge of. Perhaps I should remind you one last time that I WAS THERE, YOU WEREN'T! I know the truth, you don't. If you want people to believe that Dan is a great guy, good for you. I prefer you stay on that side of the fence.

The reason I wouldn't have a problem representing those snakes as erebennus is because:

1) "They don't show any characteristics of couperi and look exactly like Texans that I've seen from the southern part of their range".

Of course they look like Texans to a degree. That's why Dan got away with it. They look like Texans you've seen, and look like (and are) the crosses I've seen. What's your point? You yourself stated that they look like some natural intergrades (crosses) that you've seen. Hmmm, interesting. Let's move on.

2) "I have absolutely no reason not to trust Dan".

This just shows your defiance to accept and/or admit that you might be wrong.


"Here's what I know about Dan:
1) He has shipped me healthy, properly represented animals on two different occasions
2) He's been helpful with husbandry/breeding advice whenever I've requested it".

That's great! I'm happy for ya', really! I bet every scoundrel who's been exposed on this thread had some deals that went smooth and are regarded by some as a "great guy" just because Joe Schmoe didn't have a problem with a sale...blah, blah, blah.

"Here's what I know about you:
1. You troll the KS forums under a new name every other day'.

Not true.

"Usually it's not to expose a "bad guy" but rather to disrupt the forum and draw attention to yourself with names like turdball and dingleberry".

I never posted under the name "Dingleberry".

2. "You attack good people such as John Cherry and Dean Allesandrini for no good reason other than to amuse yourself".

Do you have any facts to share with this forum? First of all, as much as you would like me to, I will not bash either of those guys. And go find one post where I "ATTACKED" either one of them. Just because John Cherry is a "big-gun" in the eyes of people like yourself and most others at KS, doesn't mean that I am obligated to agree with them and everything they say. The fact is, I DISAGREED with John Cherry and that is that. I do not dislike John or Dean for that matter and have NEVER claimed that they are not "good people". Get your facts straight and again, stop with the melodramatics.

3." You never offer anything even remotely constructive to the forums but I've seen you attack newbies when they ask simple husbandry questions".

PROVE THIS!!! I have NEVER attacked a newbie. As a matter of fact, show me where I've ever pursued anyone who didn't pursue me first, with the exception of Albury thanks to Dan Felice's hatred for him.

"When you make allegations against someone with no proof other than "because I know it's true".....it comes down to credibility, and you don't have any. If you could prove your allegations my opinion of Dan would change but I'm certainly not going to just take your word for it".

Good! Don't take my word for it. I never asked YOU to! Buy all of the supposed 02 Texans up that Dan sold to those people and start your own line. We'll see how many you sell, lol. The only reason I'm even entertaining your posts is because you claimed that "because that's exactly what they are". Again, how do you know that? I already know the answer because I know the truth. I really want to here your explanation for such a bold statement. Please share.

"Even if your allegations were true....you say that Steve Fuller was an innocent victim and you were completely aware that he had been sold misrepresented snakes yet you said nothing for two years until your friendship with Dan ended. If you're statements are true...wouldn't that make you just as guilty as Dan"?

Actually, I knew that they were sold to a "Steve" and Dan mentioned his last name maybe once. I forgot it having never heard of him before. It wasn't until TexIndigo Gal's post on KS that I finally had the evidence that it was Steve "Fuller" and Bobby L. that were the recipients of the crosses. Of course we still don't know where the rest ended up. If witholding that info at the time because I didn't have enough information and wanting to avoid the scrutiny I am being subject to even with all the evidence I have now is being "guilty", then yes. I am. Also I didn't know this board existed then.

"Ok, I'm done....so offer up proof or just drag this thread out for 100 more pages saying nothing....it doesn't really matter to me. Obviously we have negative opinions of eachother and neither of us is like to change the other's opinion. I'm not interested in continuing a flame war with you so have fun and good luck in your quest".

I beg to differ Chris. I didn't have a negative opinion of you at first and please don't mistake me for someone who puts ANY stock in your opinions. I was never interested in a flame war. You were. Let me remind you since your memory is not serving you well that YOU ATTACKED ME here before I even posted! So let's recap, shall we?...

1) Gila is Dan's friend.
2) Gila blatantly assaulted me without provocation from the onset of this thread and has continued to do so.
3) Gila avered that "that is exactly what they are"...because Dan said so???
4) Gila has not been able to REFUTE any of the charges here.
5) Gila's only defense is that I'm a troublemaker and Dan sold him a nice snake, therefore Dan is a good guy and I'm lying regardless of any and all evidence, overwhelmingly circumstantial or not.

One last time Gila...

How do you know that "that's exactly what they are"?

[Chris Kennard]

"I think that, in my opinion, that alone would absolve Gila from his agreement".

Interesting statement, but not very sensible. Gila made the statement that "that is exactly what they are", with regard to the crosses being Texans and I asked for evidence of how he knew that BEFORE Rob did. Gila ignored it. He was a big man with big words when Rob got booted temporarily, then clammed up when he came back. Excuses, excuses. Should I refrain from answering questions on this site because the answers are pending on "agreements" (oooh, I only have to answer if...lol)? Give me a break. That's ridiculous and you know it! So what's your take??? Dan Felice= ? guy.

[Chris Kennard]

What do you suppose a cross between a Unicolor Cribo and an Eastern Indigo should look like? You yourself have stated that they (Dan's offspring) show no signs of Couperi, yet according to some of the biggest guns on the Indigo forum at KS, Texans look very similar to Couperi. Also, have you ever seen an Eastern/Uni cross? I have.

[Anaconda Al]

"I'll do my best to answer your question and then I'm done with this thread. I don't have the desire or time to keep playing this back and forth with you every five minutes."

It took a whole day to finally say something. You were lurking up until 3:00AM last night and you still said nothing until this morning. I guess it's getting tougher for you to find good things to say about Felicewhen the evidence against him is still mounting? WHY DOESN"T FELICE SAY SOMETHING GILA? You are obviously his most loyal spokesman, HAVE YOU SUGGESTED TO HIM THAT HE'D HAVE A SHOT AT, AT LEAST, APPEARING SOMEWHAT CREDIBLE IF HE STOPPED THE COWARDLY LURKING AND SAID SOMETHING ON HIS OWN BEHALF HERE? You look pretty bad right now Raden, are you getting tired of "taking the beating" for him?

You say to Chris Kennard:

"Here's what I know about you:
1. You troll the KS forums under a new name every other day. Usually it's not to expose a "bad guy" but rather to disrupt the forum and draw attention to yourself with names like turdball and dingleberry.
2. You attack good people such as John Cherry and Dean Allesandrini for no good reason other than to amuse yourself.
3. You never offer anything even remotely constructive to the forums but I've seen you attack newbies when they ask simple husbandry questions."

I say: Go do what you do best and complain to Jeff Barringer. Nobody cares here!

You say to Kennard:

"When you make allegations against someone with no proof other than "because I know it's true".....it comes down to credibility, and you don't have any. If you could prove your allegations my opinion of Dan would change but I'm certainly not going to just take your word for it."

I say: Kennard has offered facts that you've yet to refute. Your words of wisdom above are more applicable to your quest to defend Felice by trashing Kennard.

You say:

"Even if your allegations were true....you say that Steve Fuller was an innocent victim and you were completely aware that he had been sold misrepresented snakes yet you said nothing for two years until your friendship with Dan ended. If you're statements are true...wouldn't that make you just as guilty as Dan? "

I say: What if YOU "WERE COMPLTETELY AWARE" of the fact that Felice ripped Fuller off, WOULD THAT MAKE FELICE ANY LESS GUILTY? Notice the ridiculous "logic" that goes on in your head to divert the attention away from your good buddy Felice! Get a clue Gila!

You say:

"Ok, I'm done....so offer up proof or just drag this thread out for 100 more pages saying nothing....it doesn't really matter to me. Obviously we have negative opinions of eachother and neither of us is like to change the other's opinion. I'm not interested in continuing a flame war with you so have fun and good luck in your quest."

I Say: Of course you are done Raden! You were "done" on page one of this thread. Felice was getting exposed on Indigo as being a Fraud, and he managed to manipulate McMurtry and yourself to post a pre-emptive "Good Guy" post on his behalf (LOL!). The problem for Felice and his "dream team" of defenders is that you didn't have the truth on your side. That's why you are, once again, running away from a debate here. Good luck in your quest!

By the way Raden, Frank ("rearfang"), a good buddy of Felice's who was bashing Kennard on KS when Kennard exposed Felice for ripping off Steve Fuller, lives "3 miles from the Pompano, Fla. landfill". Kennard received death threats that were mailed from Fort Lauderdale and West Palm. He also received on from Memphis, Tenn. Felice's good buddy Frank happened to mention on KS that he was at the Memphis zoo JUST THREE DAYS BEFORE THE DEATH THREAT FROM MEMPHIS ARRIVED. What is your opinion about whether Felice and his good buddy Frank might have something to do with those death threats? Or is this exactly the type of discussion that you are running away from here for reasons that you'd rather not explain????????????????????? Now do what you do best and run away Raden!

[Anaconda Al]

Take notice of how Felice get's Raden to speak for him. Likewise, take notice of how Raden got you to speak for Raden. Then take a good look at the ridiculous quote from you below and ask yourself if the things you say sound any less ridicuous coming from you rather than Raden? Why can't any of you guys seem to speak on your own behalf?


"No I believe Albert Applebaum didn't pay to have An-al's account reinstated. I believe it was Rob Dunleavy who paid if the change in the name in An-al's profile is to be believed. I think that, in my opinion, that alone would absolve Gila from his agreement.


The rules for the BOI are clear:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.
YOUR FULL NAME is required for each message you post."



Here's a breakdown of the "pretzel logic" used above:

Raden shouldn't have to say anything that might refute the facts presented in this thread about Felice's guilt, BECAUSE ROB WASN"T USING HIS REAL NAME EARLIER?

You see Ms. Forrester, it's typical for those who have something to hide to want to say as little as possible. Does it strike you as odd that Felice has posted only once in a thread ABOUT HIMSELF that is over 100 posts long, especially in light of the fact that you obviously think he is innocent?

And don't worry, Ms. Forrester, the "rules of the BOI" are working just fine here. Felice is emerging as the CREEP that he is, whether I poster my real name or not (LOL!).

[WebSlave]

When the $10 fine was paid, this is the statement that was made in the email in reference to that fine payment:


My user name is "Anaconda Al" and my real name is Rob Dunleavy.

[Anaconda Al]

1) Felice crossed an Eastern Indigo with a Unicolored Cribo.

2) Felice sold two of the offspring, and did in fact represent them as the crosses that they were to Chris Kennard and his brother Joe.

3) Chris Kennard and Dan Felice were friends, and Felice laughed when Kennard named Felice's dirty little secret of crossing Indigos "Project Blue Book".

4) Felice sold and misrepresented some of the offspring to Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee. He lied, saying that the offspring were Texas Indigos. He told Chris Kennard that he hoped Steve Fuller would not find out (How's that for "DECEPTION" Wendy?).

5) Steve Fuller, in turn, sold, and, most likely, unknowingly misrepresented, two of those offspring to Jeff Nichols and his wife.

6) After Nichol's wife bragged on the KS Indigo forum the day they received what they thought were "Texas indigos" from Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee, Jeff Nichols refuses to say whether or not he still has those snakes. Nichols also refuses to post pictures of the snakes.

7) Chris Kennard received five death threats in the mail following his comments on this thread about Felice.


Why is it that Felice and his defenders have completely avoided these seven issues in favor of making an issue out of how I signed my posts? Let me answer that, they are hoping to DIVERT THE ATTENTION AWAY FROM DAN FELICE. If Felice had nothing to hide, he'd be totally available to take us on with regard to the seven issues listed above.

WHERE ARE YOU FELICE????????????????????

[Anaconda Al]

Below is the post that shows how the consequenses of "Project Blue Book" put you at odds with Steve Fuller and Jeff Nichols. You were a complete "no show" on this thread until I posted this earlier. Jeff Nichols disappeared from this thread shortly after this was originally posted, and Steve Fuller and/or Bobby Lee haven't shown up here in your defense. Maybe if you read this post again you might show up ONCE again to comment. How about it?


"4 Shame 4 Shame 4 Shame on Bobl & Steve F

Posted by: TexIndigo Gal at Fri Oct 3 20:56:09 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

For feeding our addiction!

Today, Jeff and I received three BEAUTIFUL Texicans, further intoxicating us and insuring that we will NEVER escape the Drymarchon web.

Two girls and a boy ’02 Tex Indigo joined us today, like clockwork!

I was told to expect delivery before 10:30 a.m., and at 10:20 a.m., the UPS truck rolled up to the curb.

These three are apparently all from Dan Felice’s stock.

I first opened the box from Bobby Lee, and found inside the knotted bag a lovely, lively, inquisitive girl there. She ate a small mouse later this evening. She also earned, almost immediately, the Dry reputation as a sh!t artist.

Then I opened the carton from Steve Fuller and found two mobile pillowcases. The male quickly soiled the cage, and made two mock-strikes at me. Later, he ate a mouse. He also “decorated” his cage almost immediately upon de-bagging. A true Drymarchon!

The female from Steve, who looked close to shedding, did not eat tonight.

They are, all three, all lovely animals. . What hope is there for us? We are smitten.

B "

[Anaconda Al]

You Say:

"I should think, in my opinion, that anything he posted under a false name is totally suspect now. If he lied about his own name then why not some of the information he was posting in those messages?"

Since it is YOUR opinion that the content of my posts are now "totally suspect", do you care to give ANY examples of specific posts where you think that I posted "information" that is "suspect"?

Do you realize that NOTHING is stopping you from taking those seven issues/facts, that I've listed in my post above, and picking them apart with your own information, or don't you have any information. Walk the talk at show us WHY my facts are wrong!

Otherwise you look like someone who wants to avoid the issues. But then again, obviously, that IS who you are, and guess what? It has nothing to do with whether you are using your real name or not.

[Chris Kennard]

to get back on track, perhaps a recap is necessary.

After the birth of this thread, Nate Godin inquires about the crosses in question after seeing the fuss on KS. Gila responds without provocation with a venomous assault on myself before I even got a chance to respond. Enter Jeff Nichols who states, "I'm reasonably convinced that the story you tell is somewhat flawed", yet later contradicts himself (just prior to disappearing) with these two statements...

"However, in his defense, I don't know what a cross might count out as".

"I've scale counted the animals. Enough, I'm done".

On page four I submitted a post that Dan composed at KS where his first line states, "yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago". Of course this was a direct contradiction to his statement on his only post to this thread where he states, "and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning". Interesting. Back to Jeff Nichols on page eight where he suprisingly states with regard to the offspring he recieve from "Dan Felice's"stock, "Ummm, never said we kept them". This being a shock after this post on KS submitted by his wife...

"4 Shame 4 Shame 4 Shame on Bobl & Steve F

Posted by: TexIndigo Gal at Fri Oct 3 20:56:09 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

For feeding our addiction!

Today, Jeff and I received three BEAUTIFUL Texicans, further intoxicating us and insuring that we will NEVER escape the Drymarchon web.

Two girls and a boy ’02 Tex Indigo joined us today, like clockwork!

I was told to expect delivery before 10:30 a.m., and at 10:20 a.m., the UPS truck rolled up to the curb.

These three are apparently all from Dan Felice’s stock.

I first opened the box from Bobby Lee, and found inside the knotted bag a lovely, lively, inquisitive girl there. She ate a small mouse later this evening. She also earned, almost immediately, the Dry reputation as a sh!t artist.

Then I opened the carton from Steve Fuller and found two mobile pillowcases. The male quickly soiled the cage, and made two mock-strikes at me. Later, he ate a mouse. He also “decorated” his cage almost immediately upon de-bagging. A true Drymarchon!

The female from Steve, who looked close to shedding, did not eat tonight.

They are, all three, all lovely animals. . What hope is there for us? We are smitten.

B "

Why get rid of animals after such a rave review? In any case, Jeff was then asked "who has those snakes now"? Jeff disappears from this thread entirely.

Cut to page ten. Enter Dan Felice, who disregards the tos and starts a seperate threat on this topic in an effort to rally support by smearing his accusers and keep this thread on a "good guy" note...

chris kennard & rob aka 'applebaum', 200+ NEGATIVE posts straight and counting.....]
this will be my 1rst and last post ever concerning this subject. [#1] no drymarchon were EVER crossed at ANY time! kennard just 'thinks' there were and 18 months later for reasons KNOWN only to him has decided to 'come clean' and save the drymarchon community despite the fact that he loathes everyone and anything in the indigo forum. or ANY forum for that matter. he is banned on a continual daily basis from posting anywhere in KS for his complete lack of respect and decorum w/ regards to other members. you have all seen him in his different disguises/name changes whether you recognized him or not. he NEVER stops! [#2] rob, who hides behind the names 'applebaum & anaconda al' has NEVER even owned a snake and wouldn't know a garter snake from a garden hose.......chris saw the actual copulation here in my home huh rob? well, that must have been QUITE a trick as the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs. but never mind the truth, you just keep parroting whatever 'cunnard' tells you to. these 2 guys have now posted OVER 200 times straight negatively here in fauna on TWO guys ONLY. myself and fred albury. i believe the words 'fanatic obsession' would come into play nicely here. those numbers are simply not possible by regular people but apparently it's the norm for the 'dynamic duo'. the numbers speak for themselves. in the thread bearing my name, they are responsible for fully 88% of the posts there even though they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about anything and it never involved them in the least!!! how and why is that possible? it's NOT! these are 2 very unhappy individuals that go around [talking to themselves in the thread] and looking to create TROUBLE nonstop. [#3] the LEGITIMATE animals in question were sold a looong time ago, were honestly represented and the book has long since been closed. this is apparently not good enough for frick & frack however. ????????? why? who the hell knows? they have their own agenda and motives apparently, relentlessly [and idiotically] pursuing a topic that they had/have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with EVER in the first place.......now you 2 boys run along and knock yourselves out some more. i [and others] are enjoying watching your 'rant & chant' show. i know YOU TWO think you are 'owed' facts but YOU ARE OWED NOTHING!! get it? i know you both as major mouth-offs/trouble seekers for some time [20+ years in 'cunnards' case] and that is PRECISELY why you were never told anything in the beginning. YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED! people warned me about you years ago to present and now i see that they were right all long. THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR. it's not even close...... so run along girls and carry your tales like 2 little snitches. you both disgust me!! the case is closed. except by you 2, who know absolutely the least. you guys are pathetic and have become laugh stocks. life---you oughta try getting one! oh, and Merry Christmas...... very sincerely, dan felice

The obvious rantings of a desperate person. Nothing refuted. Only slander is displayed.

Page twelve. I submitted a second post of Dan's from KS showing the exact same pattern and content of his previous posts and that of his "spokespeople" here...

RE: p.s. & VERY LAST WORD EVER......

[ Logout ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: dan felice at Tue Dec 9 12:51:01 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email
Message ]

no cunnard, i don't know what you mean. i haven't a clue......you are beyond
hope at this point. i feel very, very sorry for you. LAST WORD SMOOTH: you were
never in the loop. EVER! you only have yourself to blame for that. for Christ's
sake, leslie warned me about your 'mentalness' the day she introduced us in '85
in john's grill. i don't know where your living but it's not in the present and
your knowledge of reptiles and their husbandry is sketchy at best. the next
snake you breed will be your first......for one example. you HIGHLY OVERVALUE
your own opinions that more often than not are unsubstantiated. in other words,
you deal in a fantasy world......a longtime habit of yours. i'm not dealing w/
it any longer......i have bigger problems to deal with. YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL
OUT OF YOURSELF YET AGAIN!!!!!! even the people in the pit forum [your alleged
forte] avoid you like the plague. what about that dn't you understand?......
btw, thanks OH, but please don't waste your time anymore on this buffon. i'm not
ever, ever again......

Cut to page fourteen where I posted new evidence...

While frolicking through the photo gallery at KS, I happened upon a photo of a supposed Texas Indigo by Steve Fuller. To recap, Steve is one of the unsuspecting recipients of Dan Felice's 02 Eastern Indigo/Unicolor Cribos which Dan sold as Texas Indigos. The date of the photo was labeled 7/20/2003. The photo is of a YEAR OLD Texas Indigo. The photo depicts what appears to be an obvious cross between the snakes in question. I have never seen a Texan with the head color of a Uni. I defy anyone to look at that photo and tell me they have seen Texans that look like that and share the head color of what is obviously indicative of a Unicolor Cribo, NOT A TEXAS INDIGO. The photo can be found by simply going to KS photo gallery, half way down the page in the search engine fill in the word Indigo, and go to the pic of the Texas Indigo by Steve Fuller. Or...
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=87642
Subsequently, I have recieved five anonymous threatening cards in the mail since this thread came about. Most, if not all, were sent by Rearfang (Frank). Frank is Dan's buddy. The connection is obvious. The first two were sent from S.Florida, where Frank happens to live. The third from N.Carolina. The forurth and fifth from Memphis and Newark, N.J. By his own admission in a post on KS, Frank was in Memphis the weekend the card was sent. Coincedence, lol? You do the math.
Enough said. If anyone can look at that pic and say that it represents a Texas animal, then the Texan you are compairing the photo to was probably created by Dan.

Now enter Gila, who as usual is reaching for anything to discredit us while again refuting nothing and resorting to slander. When asked a compromising question (how do you Know that's 'exactly what they are'?), Gila disappears...again. When the goin' gets tough, the wrong get goin', lol.

Page eighteen, enter Wendy, who once again can't resist being on the wrong side of the fence just because she hates us for stealing any attention that is rightfully hers and her sidekick Wes', who also follows in her footsteps with unsubstantial arrogant slander and baby talk. Suprisingly no warning points for being discourteous and using inappropriate language. A star on the bulletinboard for you guys. Savor that for it's the only claim to fame you'll have to tell your grandkids about regarding this thread. In any case, after the smoke settles and after Wes admits that it looks like we're right on this one, another disappearing act ensues. Wise choice.

Enter Discern, a guy with a legitimate bone to pick and the level headedness to constuct rational thoughts. Enough said. Billy Fraser...good guy.

Finally Gila comes back to answer the question we've been waiting for...but doesn't. A smooth ballet of words from Chris Raden leaves us where we started with him. Then comes Wraith, LOL! A carbon copy of Dan/Gila/Wendy/Wes. Refute nothing, attack our "popularity", and send the message to future victims that they think Dan is a good guy and therefore they would buy those "Texans" and so should you. A sad day for the herp community. All in all, if you read this thread start to finish, the trouble always starts with the "dream team" (Gila/Wendy/Wes) due to there abrasive introductions of themselves while resorting to slander and defamation. The proof is in the puddin'.

But the real issue here is simple. If Dan is innocent, he could have ended this thread a long time ago by answering just a few simple questions. In his post on page ten where the birth of this fish story came into play... "well, that must have been QUITE a trick as the adults were never here in the first place yip-yope!! i only hatched the eggs"...it struck me that this would solve everything, but only if Dan elaborates. Who did he "hatch" the eggs for? Who, aside from Steve and Bobby, were the recipients of those offspring. Why, if they belonged to someone else, was Dan selling them and why represent them as "Dan Felice's" stock? The answers to these questions would lay this all to rest. If anyone here was in any position to prove their accusers wrong, what would stop you? What is really scary though is the fact that those offspring are probably large enough to produce offspring of their own. I'm sure glad I'm not on any lists to recieve Texans this year!

[Anaconda Al]

I believe that the KS Indigo forum is a breeding ground for scammers like Dan Felice. There exists a group of "core members" who align themselves with each other in order to give the appearance that they are an elite group of experts with stellar reputations. Although I do acknowledge that these guys know their stuff when it comes to snakes, I have a real problem with "Good Old Boys" attitude that drives their unconditional defense of their own "Bad Apples" without any concern for those who get ripped off.

For example, Felice responded directly to two of Steve Fuller's posts on that forum in the past week. I found the thought to be stomach-turning, as I have no doubt that the Indigo forum is where Felice found Fuller in the first place. Fuller is probably disgusted with Felice by now, yet Felice seems to be trying to "blend in" by posting directly under him to give the appearance that everything is fine (LOL!). The problem is, the rest of "the core" will play along acting as if Felice is a "Good Guy", and some "newbie" will come into contact with Felice via the KS Indigo forum, and they might conclude that Felice is just as reputable as Dean Alessandrini, for instance. The process will then probably repeat itself.

Like Felice, Fred Albury is once again posting in the Indigo forum as if he is a pillar of the snake community. No doubt, he and Felice are trolling for unsuspecting "suckers" to rip off, and with the help of "the cores" cooperation and support, I'm sure they will unfortunately have some success.

Felice and all of his defenders here have attempted to discredit Kennard and myself on this thread because we are "disruptive" on the KS Indigo forum. The truth is, the aim of our "disruption" has been to alert potential victims of Felice and Albury, and to discredit defenders of these scoundrels. No different than we've done here. So the next time Chis Raden refers to Kennard and/or I as "trolls", you'll have the real story.

[Chris Kennard]

"I believe that the KS Indigo forum is a breeding ground for scammers like Dan Felice. There exists a group of "core members" who align themselves with each other in order to give the appearance that they are an elite group of experts with stellar reputations".

I think KS in general is a breeding ground for scammers, not just the "Core". But the country club ("core") just has a nasty habit of condoning the wrongful acts of some of their "elitist" members by sweeping the dirt under the rug and acting as if nothing happened. Professionals call that "enabling". "Oh, don't you dare cross Drymarchon you heathen. Oops, I didn't realize you were one of us. Shhh, mums the word". "Oh, and don't go rippin' people off, unless you're one of us". I think that many of the self proclaimed "big-guns" at KS use their name as a crutch to absolve them of having to answer to anyone, thus getting away with alot more than the average Joe. Don't disagree with the big guns or you'll get your head chopped off. Didn't you know that you're not supposed to think for yourself or make judgements that don't coincide with the well respected herpers of the community? But I digress. I have seen the "core" invite themselves many times into the hybrid discussion forum and "shoot first, ask questions later" with regard to their condescending arrogance towards other herpers that frequent that forum. Hmmm, kinda' troll-like, wouldn't you say? Keeping Drymarchon pure seems to be the most important aspect of the hobby/business. Even now there is discussion on Indigo@KS. Of course that thread is completely devoid of even a whisper regarding this thread, lol. In any case, as this may seem off topic, I believe it is relevant, since everyone who bashes us seems to bring up KS, to paint an accurate picture of a not-so-perfect world that exists outside of this one. I was banned from KS for disagreeing with people and for trying to expose scoundrels who were, and still are, wrongfully taking advantage of people. So...what's the problem? For those who think that the "core" is beyond "playing games" or acting in a puerile nature, hop on over and take a look at the stabs they continue to take at us (Oldherper and Felice) without uttering a word over here. The only reason they won't come here is because they don't have the same power to get our posts deleted that they have over there. PROOF'S IN THE PUDDIN'! What does that tell you? It tells me they have alot to hide.

[Anaconda Al]

Wes Pollock, a senior and extremely vocal member of the BOI who, no doubt, shares your venom for Chis Kennard and I made the following comment on page 21 of this thread:

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice"


In this statement, Wes, despite his animosity, implies that we have CREDIBILITY.

You have claimed that we have no CREDIBILITY (because we disrupt KS, post using different names, etc.), and therefore none of the things we've said could possibly prove that Felice is a "Bad Guy". Well what if it were Wes, not Kennard and I, who posted the things we've said about Felice? Would you then at least acknowledege common sense observations like:

1) Felice's refusal to comment directly on the many specific issues, that underlie his "Bad Guy" reputation, is a strong indication that he is guilty?

2) Felice's inability to bring Steve Fuller here to prove Felice's accusers wrong combined with the fact that Steve Fuller is now ignoring Felice on the Indigo forum shows that Steve Fuller obviously has a problem with Felice.

3) Jeff Nichols wife didn't come on this forum to defend Felice, and her Jeff Nichols disappeared after acknowledging that he had no idea how to do a scale count to prove that his snakes were not Hybrids.

Obviously Wes, although reluctantly, was able to acknowledge the obvious. Why can't you?

[Anaconda Al]

Dan Felice hasn't shown up here to defend himself, although he's been lurking since day one of this thread. You are obviously his "mouth piece". I would ask Felice if I thought he had the backbone to say something himself, but he's committed to his strategy to say noyhing in order to avoid digging a deeper hole. Unfortunalety, for you, your friendship with Felice and your repeated attempts to divert this thread from the real issues, has put you in the hotseat as well. That's what aligning yourself with the "wrong crowd" (felice and Albury) will do.

[Chris Kennard]

Why hasn't Dannio brought the person he supposedly "hatched the eggs for" and the recipients of the "unaccounted for" hatchlings to this thread??? That would wrap this whole thread up. And the latter would save many folks the aggrivation of having to worry about whether or not Dan's polluted creations have infected the lineages of snakes in other people's collections.

"Jeff Nichols disappeared after acknowledging that he had no idea how to do a scale count to prove that his snakes were not Hybrids".

Actually Rob, if you go back and read the thread with your good eye, you will realize that Jeff scrammed as soon as you asked him where the supposed Texans are now, following his comment that he never said he kept them. Perhaps we'll never know why Jeff is pleading the fifth. I will say this...it is sad for the herp community that people's silence and defiance on this matter due to their hatred for us is more important than the future success of not only keeping people from being scammed or misled, but also the future success of preserving the purity of some snakes in captive populations. Granted some people aren't so concerned with that, and that is fine, but for those who are concerned, do they not have the right to buy properly represented snakes to further their campaign to keep the lineages clean within their own collections? This is difficult to do when someone deemed as "reputable" pulls a stunt like this. It makes it impossible to trust anyone anymore and could be detrimental to everyone's business...even the big-guns. Just my opinion.

[Wilomn]

an-al you continue to misquote me. The entire quote also asked why you and your pal kennard are so arrogantly antagonistic. You keep leaving that out. How come.

I was not reluctant to say you were right about albury. I simply stated it. Unless you are one of those little voices I carry around with me, which I doubt, please do not ASSume to know what I think or why I think it.

As far as your question about the reaction if I had been the one to question felice there are some important things about us that are different. Let me explain:

While I am outspoken I am not anywhere near as antagonistic as you. If someone disagrees with me and has a good reason to do so I don't beat them over the head with the same facts over and over and over and over again as you seem to relish doing.

I don't have it out for you or kennard. I just don't like the way you act here. So I guess I don't really like you that much either. However, I do not let it get personal or my feelings hurt the way you seem to. You sure do seem to care a whole lot what I and a few others here think about you and your pal kennard. You've made some good points and also made an ass out of yourselves more than once.

The true telling point in the difference between us is that you have lied. You have blown much of the little credibility you got for outing albury with your methods and willingness to lie eleanor, er an-al.

I can completely understand you using me to measure yourself against but, don't you think it's a little severe for you to try such a high standard right off? On the scale of some floridians you're a great guy but, you really don't make the grade, as yet, with some of us west coasters.

If you leave me alone I'll pretty much leave you alone. And you really should try not to be so arrogant or antagonistic. You're not that good. Look at Brian Oakley, now there's a good role model. Cool calm and collected. And honest. You know that's a stickler with me. You really blew it there an-al. Lighten up a tad and be honest and maybe you'll measure up someday. Maybe.

Hey, how is it you only got charged $10.00 for being banned when you came back under a false name too? Talk about playing favorites.

Wes Pollock

[herphobbyist]

Had to put his name in the subject line so I wouldn't get spanked by the gatekeeper. I have read this thread and check daily for updates. Guess I need a life, lol. It seems like a stalemate to me. Personally I'm gonna wait until the owners of those babies finally breed them. I suppose they could resemble the parents but then again they may not. I'm not sure what exactly happened Dan but you should address the simple question. Like who owned the parents the eggs came from. I would think you'll lose alot of customers if you don't. I have bought snakes from Dan with no problems, met Fred Albury at a show in CA long ago. I have no problems with Chris, actually I like chatting with him. That said I don't want anyone thinking I'm taking sides. I just wanted to show how someone like myself would be suspicious if someone didn't respond to a post that would harm their reputation. It doesn't matter what you have to sell if your reputation is shot. A snake is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Hopefully this will all come out when those babies produce. Ron Radloff

[Chris Kennard]

"an-al you continue to misquote me. The entire quote also asked why you and your pal kennard are so arrogantly antagonistic. You keep leaving that out. How come".

I'd be happy to answer your silly question Wes. First of all, what you call antagonistic, I call trying dilligently to make sure there are no misunderstandings about the fact that Dan misled people. I do so for the benefit of future purchasers of Texas Indigos. What's your excuse for being here other than to pick a fight? I haven't seen you address even one topic here. So far I've read several threads on these forums and have seen NO ONE as puerile and antagonistic (an-al, jerk etc.) as you. Funny, no one called you any names here. What would possess you to do so other than your hatred for someone who is stealing attention from you? Or perhaps this thread gave you yet another opportunity to snatch a handful of attention. Your attitude tells me that you are angry because someone you loath is right and you HATE THAT!

"I was not reluctant to say you were right about albury. I simply stated it. Unless you are one of those little voices I carry around with me, which I doubt, please do not ASSume to know what I think or why I think it".

The "ASSume" reference is just yet another perfect example of your "arrogantly antagonistic" and might I add, childish, behaviour.

"While I am outspoken I am not anywhere near as antagonistic as you. If someone disagrees with me and has a good reason to do so I don't beat them over the head with the same facts over and over and over and over again as you seem to relish doing".

I'd be willing to bet that many people here would agree that you are far more than "anywhere near as antagonistic" than anyone here. Your self appointed arrogance is suffocating! I don't think I've ever read a post of yours that wasn't cloaking an insult or being rude and arrogant or that didn't contain inappropriate language as this one. I personally believe you act that way because you are trying to impress people here with that "I'm a toughguy BS, but that's just my opinion. As far as stating facts over and over, it's because we have to keep defending those facts to people like you who continue to "arrogantly antagonize" us in an effort to get us kicked off instead of trying to find the truth and also because no one seems to want to refute anything we say with something substantial. All we here from you and your pals is "credibility this" and KS troll that". Have you any "facts" to contribute to the topic here? I didn't think so. The only reason you are here is to TRY to "show off" for your little Dream Team.

"I don't have it out for you or kennard. I just don't like the way you act here. So I guess I don't really like you that much either. However, I do not let it get personal or my feelings hurt the way you seem to. You sure do seem to care a whole lot what I and a few others here think about you and your pal kennard. You've made some good points and also made an ass out of yourselves more than once".

More "arrogantly antagonistic" opinions. Be careful, your anger is showing. And please don't patronize. You do have it out for us. I thought you were somewhat honest until you made that comment. Oh, and trust me, we put no stock in your opinions! So please, don't flatter yourself.

"The true telling point in the difference between us is that you have lied. You have blown much of the little credibility you got for outing albury with your methods and willingness to lie eleanor, er an-al".

Another testament to your "arrogant antagonism". What's the matter Wes? Can't you make a statement without the condescention and name calling? I can see why people hold you in such high regard here, lol. Or is that just self proclaimed? I'll go with the latter. In any case, I find it interesting that you admit that Dan looks wrong here, but since our "credibility" is in question, would you buy those "Texas" Indigos?

"I can completely understand you using me to measure yourself against but, don't you think it's a little severe for you to try such a high standard right off? On the scale of some floridians you're a great guy but, you really don't make the grade, as yet, with some of us west coasters".

Don't make the grade with West Coasters??? OH DEAR GOD, NO! ANYTHING BUT THAT! HOW WILL WE SLEEP TONIGHT?

"If you leave me alone I'll pretty much leave you alone. And you really should try not to be so arrogant or antagonistic. You're not that good. Look at Brian Oakley, now there's a good role model. Cool calm and collected. And honest. You know that's a stickler with me. You really blew it there an-al. Lighten up a tad and be honest and maybe you'll measure up someday. Maybe".

This is my favorite!!! First of all, since you hold yourself to have such "high standards", why use Oakley as an exaple instead of yourself? Oh yeah, the word role model threw that out the window, lol. By the way, if gaining acceptance here or anywhere on the planet means that I have to measure up to you, I'd rather be hated.But I digress. You said, "if you leave me alone I'll pretty much leave you alone". How do you explain your presence here??? No one bothered you, and all of a sudden voila! Here you come with your ARROGANTLY ANTAGONISTIC post......

"Is this a pissing match between an-al and kennard vs. anyone who, while agreeing with them in total disagrees with their methods or is a thread about dan's mis-representation of his stock? It's really getting hard to tell.

You two, an-al and kennard, seem to think that just because you were behind the outing of albury that you are some sort of detective gods here. You ain't. You may be members but, that does not give you the right to jump all over anyone who questions your methods. In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice but, why are you such arrogant antagonistic jerks all the time?

Lighten up boys.

Wes Pollock


__________________
I may not be very smart but, I can lift heavy things.


Hmmm, what possibly could have possessed you to fly off the handle in a thread that has nothing to do with you and that no one MADE you read? And the language...pshaw. In any case...

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice..."

THANKS AGAIN WES, BUDDY!

[Chris Kennard]

"Had to put his name in the subject line so I wouldn't get spanked by the gatekeeper".

LOL! This thread needed that!

Nicely put. Thanks for getting us back on track here. Those are the questions that I feel would wrap this mess up.

[Chris Kennard]

"Personally I'm gonna wait until the owners of those babies finally breed them".

The problem is, we don't know who the owners of those babies are.

[Anaconda Al]

so here's a clue. This thread is about warning others about a "Bad Guy". I commend you for voicing your opinion that Chris Kennard and I are right when we say that Dan Felice is a "Bad Guy". However, rather than stating HOW and WHY you have arrived at that conclusion (which might help others to "see the light" about Felice), you chose to blather about your irrelevant dislike of my "methods". Nobody cares and you've only make yourself look small.

Now here's a chance for you, Wes, to engage is some constructive discussion about the RELEVANT facts of this thread. So far only "Discern" and "Herphobbyist" have 'weighed in" on the actual issues. If you have a LEGITIMATE concern for what the BOI was designed to achieve, you will restrict your comments to what are your thoughts on the following seven issues. Otherwise, all that pontificating that you do regarding your interpretation of the TOS has only made a HYPOCRITE out of you!

The issues..............................
1) Felice crossed an Eastern Indigo with a Unicolored Cribo.

2) Felice sold two of the offspring, and did in fact represent them as the crosses that they were to Chris Kennard and his brother Joe.

3) Chris Kennard and Dan Felice were friends, and Felice laughed when Kennard named Felice's dirty little secret of crossing Indigos "Project Blue Book".

4) Felice sold and misrepresented some of the offspring to Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee. He lied, saying that the offspring were Texas Indigos. He told Chris Kennard that he hoped Steve Fuller would not find out (How's that for "DECEPTION" Wendy?).

5) Steve Fuller, in turn, sold, and, most likely, unknowingly misrepresented, two of those offspring to Jeff Nichols and his wife.

6) After Nichol's wife bragged on the KS Indigo forum the day they received what they thought were "Texas indigos" from Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee, Jeff Nichols refuses to say whether or not he still has those snakes. Nichols also refuses to post pictures of the snakes.

7) Chris Kennard received five death threats in the mail following his comments on this thread about Felice.

Any constructive thoughts Wes?

[Wilomn]

Yup an-al I've got a couple of thoughts. There was a discussion aobut what to do with a horse once you've beaten it so much that it is tenerized beyond recognition. BBQ was the general consensus.

How many times do you have to make a point before you believe someone believes you? 100? 200? 1000?

Even though I do agree with you guys on this one as well as the albury one you seem to miss that time and time again. How can such clever guys as you and kennard keep missing that? Something got your dander up?

felice has dug himself a pretty deep hole here. Anyone that you think disagrees with you, even when they don't, is treated pretty poorly by you. THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT.

kennard, I don't feel I'm all that great a measuring stick and that Brian would be a better one. Was it really that hard to figure out? After all I have managed to get myself booted here. Then again, maybe I'm just the right measuring stick for you two.

Seems the two of you waste an awful lot of time with me if I'm so inconsequential.

No, I would not buy anything from felice.

I think that covers everything. If you're not sure, take a deep breath and read it again. You two seem to think that I'm on felice's side. Then again, it sometimes seems that saying you two think is a bit of a stretch. I suspect most of us got your points about the hundreth time you pounded them out. The subsequent nine hundred repetitions have just been tedious.

Wes Pollock

[Anaconda Al]

You say:

"Felice has dug himself a pretty deep hole here."

and

"No, I would not buy anything from Felice"

Again, THANK YOU WES!



I've quoted your above comments here to spare the innocent from having to wade though your endless diatribes just to get to the only relevant comments.

As far as your endless droning about my "methods", your ridiculous opinions do not concern me in the least. Wes, you are DISMISSED!

[herphobbyist]

Chris,
We may not know who bought the babies from Dan.. BUT they know who they are. I would be very surprised if something other than a Texan hatched out and they didn't say something! I know I'd be screaming my butt off. I just don't understand why someone would risk a hard earned reputation when a simple answer can fix it. I can honestly say when I chat with you or Dan it is strictly about our snakes. Never do we chat about this topic in private. I hope to purchase from all involved here if its something I want. I already have texans so I won't be needing them. Well good luck to everyone with the babies. I am surprised you don't come here and express your thoughts. Ron Radloff

[Chris Kennard]

I've considered the possibility that not everyone who has those babies knows that the BOI exists. That's why I think it's important for Dan to step up to bat and disclose who got them and who he supposedly hatched the eggs for. I already know he hatched the crosses himself for himself, but since he has a contradicting story, you would think he'd be gung-ho to prove me wrong. Perhaps your right in that time will tell, unless of course someone discovers this thread and has something provocative to add. Good luck with your Texans and your Pits! Take care...

[Chris Kennard]

"Anyone that you think disagrees with you, even when they don't, is treated pretty poorly by you".

Nobody was treated poorly by us unless they treated us poorly from the start. If you want proof, go find the posts you are referring to where we treated someone poorly and I'll show you a post where they started with an "arrogantly antagonistic" post. Shall we start with the first thread from you, Wendy, Gila or Wraith??? Oh wait a sec, you guys are the only ones we "treated poorly", lol. Go figure. Diddums we hurt your wittle feewings? Shall I post the first post you each submitted or do you get the picture? You guys brought the real venom to this thread with your condescending wisecracks and your inappropriate language. The ONLY reason you showed up here is because you don't like us and are starving for attention. I personally will not entertain your frivolous, irrelevant posts any longer as your agenda is clear, unless of course you have a question or comment directly related to proving anything pertaining to the topic of this thread. Boy that'll make things quiet here, lol. So long Wes.

[Wilomn]

You know kennard, I re-read the last few pages of this thread. Go to page 28 and read what I believe is your three hundredth recap of the facts.

You and an-al made some good points but the two of you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown. Santimonious ego-inflated windbags also comes to mind when thinking of you two.

You and your pal an-al have continually brought my name up in this thread, much like any other where someone, mostly me I admit but I am hardly alone, has questioned your heavyhandedness with your tactics. YOU GUYS keep referring to me. You ask why, I answer, you play dumb(or maybe you're not playing, I'll have to consider that more) and then go on in the same bulldozer manner.

Let me sum up for the final, I hope, time:

you did find out some facts about felice. The question that has really been bugging me chris is WHY didn't you tell anyone about it two years ago. Do you lie for all your buddies or was it just felice? How do we know that you are telling the truth? You knew, according to you that he sold/bred/hatched cross bred indigos AND YOU DID NOT DO A SINGLE THING TO BRING IT TO ANYONES ATTENTION. YOU ARE GUILTY OF CONSPIRACY IN THIS DEAL BECAUSE YOU KNEW IT WAS HAPPENING.

Right? If you knew a crime was being comitted and did nothing to stop it you are as guilty of it as felice is. But he was your buddy so it was ok. Gotcha, I understand. As long as you OK it there is not a problem with cross breeding and selling the offspring as pure.

Whatever. You two have beat this thing to death and then some. I don't know of anyone who thinks felice is innocent. I know a lot of us would like him to come here and say he is or prove it. Doesn't look likely at this point. There, I've said it AGAIN. Did it sink in this time???

I do question your morales kunnard. You lied for him so long as he was your friend. Then you had a falling out and "told the truth." Yup, you're the man to be trusted. An-al if you've got any secrets you don't want out that kunnard knows you better NEVER piss him off.

Quite the tag team you guys are. It's no wonder pro wrestling is known for having such an intelligent audiance with wonders like you two in starring roles.

Wes Pollock

[Anaconda Al]

You say:

"I don't know of anyone who thinks felice is innocent. I know a lot of us would like him to come here and say he is or prove it. Doesn't look likely at this point."

ONCE AGAIN, THANK YOU WES!


You say:

"It's no wonder pro wrestling is known for having such an intelligent audiance with wonders like you two in starring roles."


"Audiance" is spelled wrong Wes (s/b audience)! And what did you say about intelligence?


Regarding your effort to portray Chris Kennard as though he were just as culpable as Felice, because Kennard knew about Felice's seedy ways, yet said nothing: GO AHEAD AND START YOUR OWN THREAD ABOUT CHRIS KENNARD SINCE YOU SEEM TO BE SO OUTRAGED! (LOL!) By the way, you might want to read this thread again before you, yet again, end up looking like an idiot, as Kennard has already addressed your irrelevant observation. Chris Raden already made the same mistake.

Finally Wes, your repeated attempts to get attention in this thread, the same way that you bounce from thread to thread on this site looking to stir up trouble, reminds me of "a penny waiting for change".

[Chris Kennard]

Care to elaborate on this statement?...

"I do question your morales kunnard. You lied for him so long as he was your friend".

What do you base this statement on??? Who did I lie to? And exactly what lie did I tell? I never told anyone anything because I had no evidence, thus not lying about anything. I didn't have the evidence I needed to say anything until TexIndigo Gal posted a revealing account of who those offspring were originally sold to and at the time I didn't know about the BOI. At the time we joked about "Project Bluebook", the snakes were all in Dan's possession with the exception of the one he properly represented to my brother as a cross, thus none being sold and misrepresented as Texas Indigos...yet. I did not know he would sell them as Texans at first and when I found out, I returned the one he gave to me. From now on, perhaps you could just ask me your questions without being a pompous and arrogant, immature, accusatory child with little knowledge of the facts. How many e-mails did you recieve before putting that fictitious little ditty together, lol. Stick to drawing your own conclusions without the counsel of the idiots who coached you on that post. At least you finally brought something "on topic" to the table. Sorry you've been misinformed though. Who was that you said I lied to? What exactly did I say when "said" lie was told by me? Please quote me word for word, lol. By the way, as I've said before, I have a clean slate. I've never misrepresented an animal or had a deal gone bad. Nice try though. But if you want to start a "bad guy" thread on me, lol, by all means, quote away. Surely you have alot of dirt on me. Make sure you start with...

"Chris is a terrible guy because he wants people here to be protected from being misled and ripped off. I hate him for that"!

[Anaconda Al]

Maybe I can save you some embarassment Wes.................
Obviously, you've completely missed the boat! Chris Raden went down the same dead end as you are now, and looked pretty bad for doing so. At least he, apparently, realized this and disappeared with his tail between his legs. I don't think that you have the capacity to know when you are making a fool of yourself, so here's some more clues just for you Wes:

1) There's nothing wrong with crossing Indigo's, so even if Chris Kennard, not Felice, were the one who bred an Eastern Indigo to a Unicolored Cribo HE WOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

2) "Project Blue Book" was coined to represent the fact that Felice didn't want the "core" members of the KS Indigo forum to know that he was committing the biggest "no-no" possible within that circle. It was very important to Felice to deceive the "Good Ol' Boys' there into thinking that he was a solid "core" member who was appalled at the though of crossing the most elite snake on the planet! So, initially, "Project Blue Book" had nothing to do with SELLING snakes. (Am I going slow enough for you so far?)

3) Later, Felice mentioned to his friend at the time, Chris Kennard, that he was misrepresenting his crosses as "Texans" to a guy named Steve, and he "hoped that Steve wouldn't find out the truth". This is where Felice committed a "crime", as you so eloquently put it.

4) At this point, Kennard didn't know who "Steve" was, nor did he care. In addition, he knew nothing about Fauna Classifieds and he was friends with Felice, so why would he be obligated to say anything, and to whom?

5) As Kennard already spelled out on this thread (learn how to read Wes), he found out who "Steve" was when Jeff Nichol's wife posted on KS in 10/03. That's when kennard "spilled the beans" on KS, and yes, he and Felice were no longer friends.

6) Kennard did not start this thread on Fauna. Felice, in response to the negative publicity on KS about his reputation, obviously manipulated Lee McMurtry into posting a pre-emptive "Good Guy" thread about Felice (LOL!).

7) Kennard didn't post here until Chris Raden bashed him on the first page of this thread.

So you see Wes, it's all very simple. Felice is a "Bad Guy" because he ripped Steve Fuller off. Chris kennard is a "Good Guy" because he exposed Felice.

Now if you want to continue to somehow turn this thread into a "Bad Guy" thread about Kennard, I have a some simple question for you:

You've indicated many times on this thread that you believe Felice is guilty, so, knowing what you know now, WHY HAVEN'T YOU REPORTED FELICE TO THE POLICE???????


You now know what Kennard knows about Felice and you've accused Kennard of being just as guilty as Felice (LOL!). Wouldn't your pretzel logic also make YOU just as guilty as Felice?

Give up Wes, your rap is very tired!

[Wilomn]

Just in case anyone was wondering what an-al is referring to here is the thread that is pertinant.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33165

[Anaconda Al]

Wes Pollock, in his zest to protect the herp community from a guy who has never ripped anyone off, just created his own "Bad-Guy" thread on Chris Kennard!

At least it appears as though the massive waste that Wes brings to any thread that he intrudes will be limited to that thread for the time being.

Bye Bye Wes!

[Wilomn]

Oh al/elenor/rob or whatever your name is today, I NEVER said he was a bad guy. I merely questioned his morals.

But if you think he's a bad guy then, surely he MUST be. So be it and thank you very much.

Oh and by the way this is not a bad guy thread about your pal kennard or even you al/elenor/rob, it's about felice. Try to remember that.

Wes Pollock

[Anaconda Al]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I




Wes, I'm done addressing your mindless, infantile gibberish. Good luck in your quest to expose Chris Kennard as a "Bad Guy"!

[Anaconda Al]

You are the guy who started this thread as a result of a deal you made with Dan Felice. You said that one of the four snakes that he sold you died and that felice talked about replacing that snake.

Has he "walked the talk" and sent you another snake or money since your post?

Even though you obviously felt that your deal with Felice warrented a "Good Guy" thread about Felice, has your opinion changed at all after reading this entire thread?

[Chris Kennard]

I too found it odd that Lee waited (four weeks after recieving the snakes from Dan) until one died before posting a "good guy" post on Felice. Dan has had plenty of time to replace the snake, which in light of this thread I'm sure he was speedy to do the right thing. Funny how Lee hasn't followed up on this.

[Chris Kennard]

Are the seventy-five percent of the snakes that Dan sent you that survived doing well?

[Lee McMurtry]

I've been reading this thread intermittently, but not posting because most (all) of it seemed unrelated to the subject at hand. There seem to be several people (or a couple with assorted handles) determined to keep this thread going, though it has long since degenerated. I'm reluctant to encourage this any further, but feel compelled to due to Mr.(?) Kennard (again) questioning my role in posting.
In the interim, and despite assist feeding, the second unicolor died. After waiting several weeks to be sure that there wasn't a problem in my snake room, Dan sent me a replacement pair at a very reasonable cost - they are feeding well and thriving. As far as I am concerned as a customer, Dan has been everything that I could ask for in a seller - excellent communication before, during, and after the deal, nice animals, and a willingness to work through solutions to problems.
I'm still waiting for someone to post that THEY PERSONALLY were wronged/misled/cheated/mistreated by Dan.
Chris, Al - I would suggest that you've made your points and stated your case - its all there in black and white for someone to read and to weigh your arguments against others. Shakespeare once wrote (something like) "Methinks he doth protest too much." Why do you care so deeply about whether Dan hybridized his snakes? As I've said before, if he did it, and misrepresented the offspring, that's wrong; but it seems to me that there are a million other people in this hobby/business perpetrating far sleazier crimes against reptiles and customers that you could crusade against if you were really outraged about the behavior and not the man.
This will be my last post on the matter. I continue to be happy with the outcome of my dealing with Dan Felice. If you have further questions about my integrity, please ask them in a separate post, and I will respond. I encourage you to use the free time you gain by walking away from this for something productive (read the BOI for an extensive list of reptile cheats/scammers/thieves that you can go after next).

-Lee McMurtry

[Chris Kennard]

The final word? For you...perhaps. I feel that as long as Dan continues to put on this facade as though nothing has happened and continues to "pretend" that he has done nothing wrong as he is doing right now on KS while ignoring this thread, people will continue to fall victim to his deceptions, thus the need for this thread to exist until Dan supplies some form of closure. If he continues to ignore this thread in the hopes that those he solicits will discredit my charges without refuting anything, then it is up to me to defend my charges since I am continually put under scrutiny. You would do the same as would anyone here whether they admit it or not. Dan wants people to think I'm lying. I want people to know the truth. That being said, permit me to answer your thoughts, civily of course.

"I've been reading this thread intermittently, but not posting because most (all) of it seemed unrelated to the subject at hand".

I disagree with both the reason you haven't been posting and the relation of the subject at hand. Given Dan's habit of soliciting people to do his bidding, it seems funny that just when things got heated on KS about those crosses, you waited eight weeks, until one of the four snakes Dan sent you died, to post a good guy post before even getting a replacement. Forgive me if I'm the only one who sees something fishy about that.

"There seem to be several people (or a couple with assorted handles) determined to keep this thread going, though it has long since degenerated".

See my opening statement.

"I'm reluctant to encourage this any further, but feel compelled to due to Mr.(?) Kennard (again) questioning my role in posting".

Please, call me Chris. And don't think for a second that I don't appreciate your taking the time to entertain our curiosity. And please don't mistake my disagreeing with you for dislike. Not so.

"In the interim, and despite assist feeding, the second unicolor died".

Now this would be a much more reasonable explanation for your reluctance to post throughout this threads existance. So it's fair to say that half of the snakes that Dan sent you died.

[Chris Kennard]

Hit submit reply too fast. Allow me to continue.

"After waiting several weeks to be sure that there wasn't a problem in my snake room, Dan sent me a replacement pair at a very reasonable cost - they are feeding well and thriving".

Hmmm, I'm suprised that he made you pay at all. That doesnt sound like a fair deal to me, but that's just my opinion and I suppose only relevant if you shared that opinion, which you obviously don't. Personally, I would have GIVEN you the replacement animals. Just good business ethics. But Dan is about the almighty dollar.

" As far as I am concerned as a customer, Dan has been everything that I could ask for in a seller - excellent communication before, during, and after the deal, nice animals, and a willingness to work through solutions to problems".

I wonder had this thread existed, would he have served you the same way? Doubt it.

"I'm still waiting for someone to post that THEY PERSONALLY were wronged/misled/cheated/mistreated by Dan".

Now that is a VERY interesting statement! After reading this thread, if you are not convinced that Dan "wronged, misled, cheated or mistreated anyone, than you are a perfect example of why it is important that this thread continue in an effort to find closure to any confusion people may have about whether or not this guy can be trusted. Either you are genuinely not convinced that Dan did this, or you are in fact posting on Dan's behalf. Of course that is my opinion, but I'm sure I'm not alone here.

"Chris, Al - I would suggest that you've made your points and stated your case - its all there in black and white for someone to read and to weigh your arguments against others".

I beg to differ. Apparently, it wasn't enough for you to form an opinion ("I'm still waiting for someone to post that THEY PERSONALLY were wronged/misled/cheated/mistreated by Dan").

"Shakespeare once wrote (something like) "Methinks he doth protest too much."

Perhaps you should save ridiculousness that for the next person who is misled or wronged.

"Why do you care so deeply about whether Dan hybridized his snakes"?

I never said I cared that he hybridized those snakes. Please try to stay focused. This is about him misrepresenting them to make a buck. If that doesn't concern you, than you must not regard this board as a useful tool.

"As I've said before, if he did it, and misrepresented the offspring, that's wrong; but it seems to me that there are a million other people in this hobby/business perpetrating far sleazier crimes against reptiles and customers that you could crusade against if you were really outraged about the behavior and not the man".

I see your point Lee. As long as people are doing worse things than what Dan did, then why should I bother going after a guy who I KNOW did what Dan did when I could go after people who I know nothing of? You can't be serious Lee.

"This will be my last post on the matter. I continue to be happy with the outcome of my dealing with Dan Felice. If you have further questions about my integrity, please ask them in a separate post, and I will respond. I encourage you to use the free time you gain by walking away from this for something productive (read the BOI for an extensive list of reptile cheats/scammers/thieves that you can go after next)".

Thank you for posting. As far as your comment about walking away from this for something productive, that pretty much solidifies my perception of your agenda. Maybe you don't think it's important that your new found buddy be exposed for his wrongdoing, but I do. As far as your cheap shot about seeing who I "can go after next", take a good look at all of the threads here. I don't "scout" for people to "go after". You'll find Wes, Wendy and Gila sticking their noses in alot more posts than myself without provocation (including this one). I don't crave that kind of attention. I am here because I know for a fact that Dan did what I said he did...period. I have read quite a few "bad guy" posts on this site and did not entertain them. Why? Glad you asked. Because I had no reason to. You do the math pal.

[Chris Kennard]

If you don't mind. In the interest of future prospective buyers of Dan's who will be using this board to make a decision, is it your contention, after reading this thread, that Dan is a "good guy" and that people should not hesitate to buy from him?

"excellent communication before, during, and after the deal,..."

Was there no discussion about this thread throughout your communications? Surely Dan would have asked that you follow up with a "job well done" post. What was his excuse to you regarding the existence of negativity in his supposed "good guy" thtread? Since he won't speak up himself, perhaps you could help to lend closure to this mess. Thanks in advance.

[Lee McMurtry]

Again against my better judgement...
Chris - I re-read the entire thread - all 170 posts to date. Of those posts 105 were from you or Rob Dunleavy, and doesn't include posts that Rob submitted under an alias that were removed by moderators. Now, many of those posts were your responses to people posting about you (28 posts), and I can see why you would want to defend yourself, but I do think that I can safely say that these were, for the most part, off topic. The thread, entitled "Dan Felice - Good Guy" was about my experience with Dan - other topics are, by definition, off topic. And lest you feel singled out, I felt that ALL of those posts back and forth between you and Jeff, Chris R, Wendy, Wes etc. were off topic, which is why I quit reading the thread.
Rob - I failed to find a way in which you contributed to the thread except to say, in essence "I believe what Chris has told me". Do you have any first hand knowledge of Dan and previous dealings to support the things that you allege? And why post under different names?
For both Chris and Rob - you may not like what Wes had to say, but he has a point. Especially in a forum like this, how you say things can be as important as what you say. The personal issues back and forth, the cross posting, posting under aliases - it all undermines your credibility, even if your message carries the truth. You clearly want people to believe you, to the extent of posting repeatedly about the issue, so let your actions support your words, not detract from them.
As far as the truth goes, I have no idea what the truth is in the matter of Dan and the hybrid cribos. I've heard your version, I've heard Dan's version, and there's been a lot of extraneous supposition along the way. The opportunity to PROVE that Dan hybridized the snakes and knowingly misrepresented them is probably long gone - it would require DNA testing of the parents and babies, and proof that the snakes being tested were in fact the snakes alleged to be involved. Until then, its your word against his, and people can interpret his silence as they wish.
The things that I do know to be true are that Dan treated me well, and that I'm happy with our interaction. For the record, Dan offered to replace the cribo that died for free (I pay shipping) PRIOR to this thread being started - and was, in fact, the impetus for the thread. I asked him to wait, because I was concerned about the other snake, which did in fact go on to die. Don't know why the snakes died - they were in the same room and similar rack environment as my other 50+ snakes, but they did. I've been a reptile hobbyist for more than 10 years, and this isn't the first time that I've had baby snakes just not do well - it happens - not often, but it does. When that happened, I asked Dan to honor the offer of a replacement, and offered to pay for another snake to pair them up, which he accepted - at a cost below what I've seen these snakes go for. Now Chris - I have a question for you. You said in one of your posts that had you been the seller, you would have replaced both snakes for free. Really? Eight and twelve weeks after I received them? If so, you have more generous terms than any seller I have seen on Fauna, KS, or individual websites. What do you produce, and do you have a website or ads containing your terms of service?
Let's for a moment stipulate that Chris is right. Dan Felice DID knowingly misrepresent hybrid cribos as Texans. Now what? Should I return my snakes and ask for a refund? Badmouth Dan on an internet forum? Picket his house with a sign? As I've said before, what goes around tends to come around - I'm not sure that I need to be the Karma Police on this one.
Both Chris and Rob have insinuated that Dan and I are somehow in collusion, or that he has put me up to posting my experience. I've spoken to Dan once on the phone prior to the sale, and several times by e-mail before, during, and after. Obviously we discussed this thread in the wake of everything, but he has never asked that I post (or not post, for that matter) about him, and honestly probably wishes I never had. Since I KNOW that Chris and Rob have jumped to conclusions about me, you can see how I might suspect they've jumped to conclusions elsewhere as well.
As for another buyer asking me about Dan, I would tell him honestly that Dan treated me well despite not all going smoothly. I would also tell him that there have been third party allegations of misleading buyers on the internet stemming from one incident a couple of years ago, but that to the best of my knowledge none of those buyers has actually surfaced.
Chris - I think you've made your point about what you believe to be true about Dan. Please restrain yourself from making assumptions about me. They detract from your credibility on other issues. I look forward to having civilized discussions on other topics elsewhere on the board.

-Lee McMurtry

[Wilomn]

Holy slippery snake scales batman, a short, succint and lucid post in this thread.

Is that allowed?

Well said Lee.

If those babies you got ever breed to eachother would not that have REAL good chances of producing some unusual babies if what kennard postulates is true? If they produced anything that did not appear to be pure Texan then it would lend credance to what he has said felice did.

It will be interesting to see just what comes out of them. Please let us know when and if you breed them together.

Wes Pollock

[DISCERN]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for your great post!

Take care!

Billy Fraser

[Chris Kennard]

I would just like to entertain a few points you made in the interest of not boring you too much.

"The thread, entitled "Dan Felice - Good Guy" was about my experience with Dan - other topics are, by definition, off topic".

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Lee. The fact that your thread turned into a "bad guy" thread doesn't make it off topic. The absence of my submissions to this thread would lead people to believe Dan honestly represents all of his animals. That's simply not true and people have a right to know.

"I felt that ALL of those posts back and forth between you and Jeff, Chris R, Wendy, Wes etc. were off topic, which is why I quit reading the thread".

Fair enough. I would agree that SOME of those posts were unnecessary. But would you not defend yourself against the venom brought here by a few of those you mentioned?

"you may not like what Wes had to say, but he has a point. Especially in a forum like this, how you say things can be as important as what you say".

You're right. I don't like what Wes has to say. It's funny how you guys accuse me of being like Wes and portray him as an innocent here. He is the most obnoxious and condescending troublemaker here. Of course that's just my opinion and doesn't sit well with the "regulars" here who can't see through his facade. No biggie.

"The personal issues back and forth, the cross posting, posting under aliases - it all undermines your credibility, even if your message carries the truth".

You guys just love throwing that "credibility" thing in my face as if I have none, lol. I beg to differ and the e-mails I've been getting suggest otherwise. You'd be suprised who the minority really is here. It isn't me.

"Now Chris - I have a question for you. You said in one of your posts that had you been the seller, you would have replaced both snakes for free. Really? Eight and twelve weeks after I received them"?

Really!

"I've heard your version, I've heard Dan's version,..."

I didn't know Dan had a version!!! What is it Lee! Let's put this to rest right now! Let's see if his "version" to you matches his versions to everyone or anyone else! Of course he doesn't want anyone to post his version to them because he knows he'll get caught in the lie. What say you Lee? What is Dan's story?

"Chris - I think you've made your point about what you believe to be true about Dan".

I don't "believe" anything to be true. I "KNOW" it to be true.

"They detract from your credibility on other issues. I look forward to having civilized discussions on other topics elsewhere on the board".

Fair enough guy! I know that since the appearance of certain people here that I have become abrasive and callous. My apologies. But I stand by my convictions.

[Chris Kennard]

"If those babies you got ever breed to eachother would not that have REAL good chances of producing some unusual babies if what kennard postulates is true? If they produced anything that did not appear to be pure Texan then it would lend credance to what he has said felice did.

It will be interesting to see just what comes out of them. Please let us know when and if you breed them together".

Wes Pollock

This is a testament to your lack of concern for facts or knowledge and your agenda here. Perhaps you should go back to the beginning of this thread and read Lee's first post where he says he got "Cribos" from Dan, not Texans. Nice try though. But I digress. It wouldn't matter what the offspring from those crosses look like. They will still be the product of crosses...period!

[Wilomn]

"It is true. Dan bred his "calico" Unicolor Cribo to an Eastern Indigo and sold them as Texas Indigos."

I guess I really shouldn't have taken you at your word, eh kennard. The above quote is from you.

I have it right in my signiture line that I may not be very smart and occsionally, not all the time like some here, I prove it.

The plain and simple is that if felice sold them as PURE anything and they start throwing out mutts your contentions will be proven.

This, as you obviously missed, was what I meant to convey.

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I am curious..I actually gritted my teeth and managed to wade through this entire thread again earlier this evening.

Please let me preface this by saying I know none of the principals in this discussion in the slightest and have no strong opinions either way.

My question, after digesting this entire discourse is, are their any supporting statements or direct eveidence anywhere here that support the allegations made by Mr. Kennard? I am certainly not discounting his statements out of hand at all. This is not an attack on his credibility. I just have failed to find a second individual anywhere in this thread with first hand direct knowledge of this supposed situation with Mr. Felice.

I find it odd that in 36 pages of posts and over a two month time period no one else has stepped forward.

Please don't interpret this question as an attack or an invitation to attack, I just find it odd

[Suncoast Herpetological]

BTW...if I missed something, please point it out.

[Chris Kennard]

""It is true. Dan bred his "calico" Unicolor Cribo to an Eastern Indigo and sold them as Texas Indigos."

That's what I said alright. What does that have to do with the fact that you just stuck your foot in your mouth because, once again, you stuck your nose where it doesn't belong without knowing relevant facts of the post in question.

"I guess I really shouldn't have taken you at your word, eh kennard. The above quote is from you".

I don't think anyone cares at this point whether or not you are or aren't taking my word for anything. I certainly could care less. But doesn't that sort of contradict your statements...

"Even though I do agree with you guys on this one as well as the albury one you seem to miss that time and time again. How can such clever guys as you and kennard keep missing that? Something got your dander up?

felice has dug himself a pretty deep hole here".

Wouldn't that be construed as "taking my word for it", lol?

"I have it right in my signiture line that I may not be very smart and occsionally, not all the time like some here, I prove it".

Was that a gift, lol? Normally I would take that ammo and run with it. Nah. Too easy. Thanks anyway!

"The plain and simple is that if felice sold them as PURE anything and they start throwing out mutts your contentions will be proven".

I think anyone with common sense knows I'm telling the truth, but okay. Have it your way. Who's got the offspring Wes??? How will anyone know?

"This, as you obviously missed, was what I meant to convey".

If that is so, than the true meaning of your post wasn't there for me to "miss" Wes. But good enough. I get the picture now.

[Chris Kennard]

" I just have failed to find a second individual anywhere in this thread with first hand direct knowledge of this supposed situation with Mr. Felice".

Perhaps you missed the post submitted by my brother Joe Kennard who was one of the recipients of one of those crosses. It was represented as a cross just like the one given to me by Dan. Does Joe's testimony not count for some reason? Battaboom...page six of this thread.

"Please don't interpret this question as an attack or an invitation to attack, I just find it odd"

Not at all. I appreciate the civility. I find it odd that no one is coming forward as well. Jeff Nichols disappeared when asked where his offspring went. Dan won't say a word about them. Lee has gotten a "side" of the story privately from Dan and it'll be interesting to see if he will share that story. I see no reason not to. Everyone is hush-hush about the whereabouts of those offspring and about who Dan supposedly "hatched" those eggs for. Why do you suppose that is?

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I did miss that post...sorry. However your brother's comments only support the statement by you that the crosses exist. That particular point does not seem to be of particular concern to any of the dry aficionados who have posted (yourself included).

The real question I was asking, and I apologize for not being clear in my first post, is that all allusions and accusations of Mr. Felice misrepresenting the animals as pure have been made by you and you alone with no supporting direct evidence or corroboration from anyone else?

That was the point I found somewhat odd after the exposure this thread has gotten in it's two month plus existance.

[Chris Kennard]

"The real question I was asking, and I apologize for not being clear in my first post, is that all allusions and accusations of Mr. Felice misrepresenting the animals as pure have been made by you and you alone with no supporting direct evidence or corroboration from anyone else"?

Correct. Why would anyone come forward and admit that they have those offspring knowing that they are crosses? No one wants us to know where they are. What does that tell you? Do you know where they are? Do you know who Dan supposedly "hatched" those eggs for? Just for the record, I don't refer to anything I've stated as "allusions" or "accusations". They are truths, plain and simple. Is it your contention that my brothers submission to this thread is not "supporting direct evidence or corroboration from anyone else"? I beg to differ! Dan took money from Joe and told him he was buying a cross between his Eastern and his Uni. That was an honest and accurate representation. He had no choice. We knew what they were!

[Chris Kennard]

"That particular point does not seem to be of particular concern to any of the dry aficionados who have posted (yourself included)".

The "Dry" "aficionados" would sooner cut off their testes before admitting that I'm right and one of their boys is wrong. They've proven that before. God forbid the "Core" be made to look anything less than infallible. Please don't mistake me for someone who needs endorsement or support or even acceptance from the "aficionados" here or anywhere else. As I've said before, this is not a popularity contest and I am not wrong here. So many times the truth is unpopular. But that's a good thing. It weeds out the scoundrels. :)

[Chris Kennard]

You and an-al made some good points but the two of you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown. Santimonious ego-inflated windbags also comes to mind when thinking of you two.


Let's do a little recap of some of Wes' quotes, shall we? And then compare them to the most "slanderous" thing I've said, and you can tell me if those statements were "called for" and necessary and if how he says things is as important as what he says...

"Is this a pissing match between an-al and kennard vs. anyone..."

" In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice but, why are you such arrogant antagonistic jerks all the time"?

" You know the part where I ask you why you have to be such arrogant atagonistic jerks".

"an-al...you and your pal kennard are so arrogantly antagonistic...ASSume..."

I get it now! If I talk like that, I'll be accepted here as a mature adult and have more credibility, lol. Let's continue, shall we...

"You've made some good points and also made an ass out of yourselves more than once".

"If you leave me alone I'll pretty much leave you alone".

LOL! That's precious! Definately my favorite. No one ever instigates Wes into entertaining any thread including this one. He shows up and spouts off on his own merit unprovoked.

" And you really should try not to be so arrogant or antagonistic. You're not that good".

More instigating. Hmmm.

"maybe you'll measure up someday..."

Called for? Relevant to this thread...how?

"After all I have managed to get myself booted here".

Ya' don't say. Really? Wonder why?

"You and an-al made some good points but the two of you are so full of crap your eyes must be brown. Santimonious ego-inflated windbags also comes to mind when thinking of you two".

Interesting! I don't remember talking that way to anyone here. Is that how I should "say things" John? Will that help me prove my "point"?

[Chris Kennard]

That quote was from Lee and that post was directed at Lee, not you. My apologies.

Why is it that when an important question comes up, people disappear? Lee, you said...

" I've heard your version, I've heard Dan's version,..."

WHAT IS DAN'S VERSION???

Who did he say has the babies now?

Who did he say he "hatched" the eggs for?

Why would you hold back important information like that"

[Lee McMurtry]

Dan's version is his to tell.

My interpretation of Dan's version would be more third-hand "evidence" and unlikely to make any difference in the minds of those who have managed to put up with this thread thus far. I will say that his version explains why Chris perceives things as he does (I am NOT saying its the truth, because I can't possibly know that. His story isn't any more or less implausible than Chris'.) He didn't say who gave him the eggs or where the hatchlings went, and I didn't ask. I don't think its any of my business, and I do know that I would prefer than people I buy from not discuss our transactions with a third party, other than in very general terms (and I recognize the irony that this board is, in fact, a third party with which to discuss transactions!).
Chris, I've never tried to dissuade you from your viewpoint. I have no evidence to add to or subtract from your case against Dan. As to how you and Rob conduct yourselves on this board, this is hardly my opinion alone - moderators have warned you nine times and Rob FIFTY-FOUR times about inappropriate behavior. Other than that its free advice and you can take it for what its worth.
This really is my last post on the subject. I have nothing to add, and no more patience for those who would drag it out further. If anyone out there other than Chris has FIRST HAND knowledge of what went on, start a new thread with it.

-Lee McMurtry

[Anaconda Al]

Good Bye Lee!

You've checked out on your own free will.

So did Dan Felice!
So did Chris Raden!
So did Jeff Nichols!

Is it just coincidental that you all ran away rather than ANSWER the simple questions that would prove that Felice has nothing to hide?

By the way Felice, I guess it's still obvious that Steve Fuller is still pissed at you for ripping him off?

God forbid you say something YOURSELF, that might make you look like you aren't hiding something!

[Anaconda Al]

You actually had the audacity to say this:




"As I've said before, if he did it, and misrepresented the offspring, that's wrong; but it seems to me that there are a million other people in this hobby/business perpetrating far sleazier crimes against reptiles and customers that you could crusade against if you were really outraged about the behavior and not the man."


Sure "it seems to" YOU that what Felice did to Steve Fuller was something so insignificant that it doesn't warrent mention on the BOI! Nice guy!

What do you suppose Steve Fuller "seems to" think about what Felice did to him?

Insignificant you say?

[Chris Kennard]

That's just the predictable cop-out I expected! You are concealing a relevant piece of the puzzle here.

"I have nothing to add, and no more patience for those who would drag it out further".

You mean you have nothing that you "want" to add. If you and all the others that Dan has privately e-mailed with his BS fish stories would step up to bat like honest people would, this thread would be much shorter in all likelyhood. So long Lee. Sorry you've joined the ranks of the suspicious. I guess at this point I shouldn't be suprised. That hush-hush disease seems to be contagious.

[Anaconda Al]

You said the following to Chris Kennard:

"The plain and simple is that if felice sold them as PURE anything and they start throwing out mutts your contentions will be proven"

Are we all supposed to suddenly forget that YOU have expressed, many times on this thread, your unequivocal opinion that Kennard's "contentions" HAVE ALREADY BEEN "proven"?

Or should we help you pretent that you didn't need a wait and see attitude before you barreled ahead to start your very own ridiculous thread about what bad guys Kennard and myself are, simply because we knew what Felice had done?

How do you explain this glaring contradiction Wes? "Morals of convenience"?

Felice's guilt here is not based on some future event. What's done is done. He already ripped Steve Fuller off. Are you now going to attempt to throw some confusion into the mix because you are so miffed that Kennard and I have successfully turned McMurtry's "Good Guy" thread (LOL) into a "Bad Guy" thread, where it belongs? If you are having trouble keeping track of what side of the fence you are on Wes (LOL), go back and read what YOU have said earlier regarding how Felice is OBVIOUSLY guilty.

[Anaconda Al]

You say to Chris kennard:



"Until then, its your word against his, and people can interpret his silence as they wish."


And what exactly is Felice's "word" Lee? We haven't heard anything from Felice on this thread regarding the specifics. Why in the world would he be "silent" about the specifics if he had nothing to hide. In the real world innocent people have lots to say to those who are falsely accusing them (LOL) of something they didn't do. In the real world those who speak up to defend someone who they think is being falsely accused can't wait to engage in discussion about the specific allegations, because it's so easy to make idiots of the accusers when you KNOW that the truth is on YOUR side.

You, Lee, don't seem to have ANYTHING to say that would point to Felice's innocence here. Instead you are making ludicrous comments that trivialize what Felice is accused of, IF it were true (LOL).

It's obvious that you really don't want to know the truth Lee. Why do you think Felice hasn't been able to get Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee to come on here and say great things about him like you have. Here's a clue Lee: THEY ARE FELICE'S VICTIMS!

[Anaconda Al]

You ask:



"My question, after digesting this entire discourse is, are their any supporting statements or direct eveidence anywhere here that support the allegations made by Mr. Kennard?"

How's this for a "statement" John: Steve Fuller refused to respond to Felice's repeated attempts to strike up a conversation on KS recently.

Here's another: Steve Fuller hasn't shown up here to defend Felice.

Here's another: Bobby Lee hasn't shown up here to defend Felice.

Here's another: Jeff Nichols is no longer posting to this thread after it became clear that he didn't really want to find out what exactly Steve Fuller and Bobby Lee had sold to him.

There's quite a few "statements' that have been made here that defenders of Felice choose to ignore.

You see John, when guilty guys like Felice clam-up in an effort to hide the truth, the smart guy has to read between the lines in order to interpret the truth correctly.

Now John, if you want to get to the bottom of this 'mystery" (LOL) why don't you ask Felice WHY he can't get Steve Fuller to give his side of the story?

Why don't you post some questions for Jeff Nichols to answer here? Did you find his sudden disappearance at least a little questionable John?

[Anaconda Al]

Your quote again:



"My question, after digesting this entire discourse is, are their any supporting statements or direct eveidence anywhere here that support the allegations made by Mr. Kennard?"


What's a good number for you John? 1,000? 1,000,000? Or would 10,000,000 people besides Kennard also have had to know about Felice's dirty little secret before you decided it was time to ask an intelligent question about whether or not Felice ripped Steve Fuller off? In general, John, scammers don't tell too many people their dirty little secrets. Why would you think that there should be others that knew what Kennard knew?

You are doing the same old, tired routine that Felice and his band of defenders have done before you: AVOID the facts and attack Kennard's credibility. Are you claiming that Felice didn't express concern to Kennard that he hopes "Steve" wouldn't find out about the crosses?

When are you going to learn the lesson that Felice is and still looks guilty as hell here because you guys keep repeating the same mistake. None of you, especially Felice, have shown any interest in discussing the facts, and that in itself makes Felice look like a scoundrel. When you add the undisputed facts that Kennard and I have stated, Felice doesn't have a chance!

[Chris Kennard]

"I will say that his version explains why Chris perceives things as he does (I am NOT saying its the truth, because I can't possibly know that. His story isn't any more or less implausible than Chris'.)"...

Lee, I have been taxing my brain trying to figure out exactly what it is that you are trying to say or trying not to say here. First of all, you are saying here that my story is implausible (not worthy of belief). Can you find where I've shown evidence of being deceptive? What really bothers me is your use of the word "perceives" in your statement. This would imply that there was manipulation, by Dan, with regard to what I saw and heard in an effort to make me think I was witnessing something that I was not as Dan has already insinuated when he said, and I quote, ""yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago precisely for
the reason you constantly demonstrate here.....YOUR A BIG MOUTH"!!!
Page four of this thread.

Hmmm. Fib=Lie. Thus, Dan is a proven liar. How do you feel about that Lee?

Is that the "version" you heard, lol? I can see why you would be too embarrassed to share with us that you would even entertain such a story. Perhaps he explained to you why he supposedly "manipulated" the truth in 02 to make me think he was doing something bad while hiding the "good" thing he was doing. That's some covert operation he's got going there, lol. I'm suprised he didn't say something like "if I tell ya', I'll have to kill ya'.
Actually, that story would explain why everyone is so hush-hush. If Dan is telling you all that he lied to me back then for some odd reason, then you all would have to admit he lies and admit that the guy you all loath (me) is right. God forbid.

[Anaconda Al]

"I will say that his version explains why Chris perceives things as he does (I am NOT saying its the truth, because I can't possibly know that. His story isn't any more or less implausible than Chris'.)"...


LOL Lee!

According to you, there's no way possible for anyone to figure out if Felice is a scoundrel? How convenient that would be for Felice IF his friend Lee McMurtry were right here! "Implausable" is a strange way to put it Lee. After all Wes Pollock was able to read this thread like I'm sure everyone else has, including you, and figured out very easily that Felice is guilty as charged. You obviously don't want to jeapordize your GREAT relationship with Felice so you wouldn't want to say anything that might make him look bad. I guess that's why we aren't going to hear anymore from you Lee?

Fortunately, this thread doesn't need guys like you Jeff Nichols to state the obvious here. Felice's disappearing act tells it all! Nice strategy Dannio!

[Wilomn]

It's nice to see that you lend my opinion such credence an-al/elenor/rob. However, I never did say that I was sure felice cross bred his snakes. I have stated that I thought he did and perhaps that I was pretty sure he did and maybe even that it sure looks like he did but, nowhere in there did I ever state conclusively that I KNEW he did. He may have he may not have. If anyone who has his babies breeds them together that should let you know if he did or not.

kennard, I am not saying I don't believe what you are saying here. I have a feeling you're right but I don't know that for sure. I will clue you two into something here. It's not a contest to see who's right or wrong. Your coming on here time and time again is not helping your case. Save it an-al/elenor/rob, I don't want to hear why I'm wrong and you're right YET again. Been there, done that. You an-al/elenor/rob I would not believe if it was only you as you have proven yourself as unable to be trusted. kennard has a slight bit of credibility even now but the two of you are SO DAMN OLD with this thing that I haven't even read it in the last two days.

Please, if you're going to quote me use the entire line and quit taking things out of context to suit your needs. I'm sort of tired of this coming back to explain what I REALLY said game you keep playing.

Oh, and an-al/elenor/rob thanks for stopping the filthy emails, they were getting tiresome as well. Did you and your life partner work things out?

If you really want to prove that felice did this heinous deed find some of the offspring and breed them.

Wes Pollock

[Anaconda Al]

"However, I never did say that I was sure felice cross bred his snakes. I have stated that I thought he did and perhaps that I was pretty sure he did and maybe even that it sure looks like he did but, nowhere in there did I ever state conclusively that I KNEW he did." He may have he may not have. "


Wow Wes, you sure fooled me into thinking that you had no doubt that Felice was cross-breeding his snakes. Who in their right mind would start their own "bad guy" thread on Chris Kennard BASED SOLELY ON HIS KNOWING THAT FELICE CROSSED HIS INDIGO and then afterward claim that "nowhere in there did I ever state conclusively that I KNEW he did." In order to regard Kennard as guilty, isn't it IMPLIED that you have to, first, be CONVINCED of Felice's guilt?


"If anyone who has his babies breeds them together that should let you know if he did or not."

We already KNOW that "he did" Wes! The damage is done. Why don't you make an appeal here for Steve Fuller to come on and say what he thinks about Felice now? Or would that be too constructive for you?

"kennard, I am not saying I don't believe what you are saying here. I have a feeling you're right but I don't know that for sure. I will clue you two into something here."

Don't worry Wes, we know what you believe. All of your back-peddaling here is comical. You were sure enough to try and bash Kennard, but you are suddenly skeptical now that your little Thready Poo has been closed.


"Oh, and an-al/elenor/rob thanks for stopping the filthy emails, they were getting tiresome as well. Did you and your life partner work things out?"

Gee Wes, I wonder if the moderator will be clever enough to catch your subtle insult here? At least you've realized that your decision to send me a private email wasn't such a good idea for you.

"If you really want to prove that felice did this heinous deed find some of the offspring and breed them"

Sorry MR INDECISION, but we've already proved it. Felice ripping Steve Fuller WAS something that happened IN THE PAST! Felice ripping off Jeff Nichols WAS something that happened IN THE PAST! And, most important, it is now IN THE PAST that you accused Kennard as being guilty like Felice just for knowing about Felice's dirty little secret.

[Anaconda Al]

"He may have he may not have. "

So what do you think the chances are that Felice misrepresented his crosses Wes?

50/50? 75/25?

OJ "may have, may not have" killed two people. Did you CONCLUDE that HE was guilty? Did you have "conclusive" evidence? You know, "absolute proof"?

Did you have or need "absolute proof" that Kennard knew about Felice's crosses before you started a thread on him? Did you CONCLUDE that he was guilty without that proof?

YOUR "morals of inconvenience" are blinding!

[Anaconda Al]

"I don't know of anyone who thinks felice is innocent. I know a lot of us would like him to come here and say he is or prove it. Doesn't look likely at this point. There, I've said it AGAIN. Did it sink in this time???"


These are YOUR words Wes - see page 32 if you have any doubt!

Pretty strong statement of your belief in his guilt, wouldn't you say?

It's certainly a far cry from your current position that "maybe his is, maybe he isn't".

Keep it real Wes!

[Chris Kennard]

"If anyone who has his babies breeds them together that should let you know if he did or not"

Totally irrelevant Wes and you know it. A moot point to say the least. There might be some odd looking babies, there might not. Maybe they'll all look just the parents. The "oddballs" may not show up for a generation or two and please don't pretend that you don't know this snakeman. I know that you would like everyone here to believe that fallacy that the babies will be the "tell-all" with regard to proving whether I'm right or wrong, but you are way off base. In any case, that's not even an issue here. Rob and I don't need to see babies to "let us know" if he did or not. He did it, I know it, now so do you.

kennard, I am not saying I don't believe what you are saying here. I have a feeling you're right but I don't know that for sure. I will clue you two into something here. It's not a contest to see who's right or wrong. Your coming on here time and time again is not helping your case.

Please don't confuse me for someone who needs your endorsement Wes. While I appreciate your opinion with regard to me being "right", I don't think that your even remotely being on my side will help my case in light of your posts here. I certainly don't need someone like you to "clue" me into anything here. Perhaps I should clue you in on something here. Your coming on here time and time again is not contributing a thing to this topic. Who has the babies Wes? Who is the guy who Dan supposedly "hatched" the eggs for? What is Dan's "version" to Lee? What did Jeff Nichols do with his offspring? Why are you here???

"Save it an-al/elenor/rob, I don't want to hear why I'm wrong and you're right YET again. Been there, done that. You an-al/elenor/rob I would not believe if it was only you as you have proven yourself as unable to be trusted. kennard has a slight bit of credibility even now but the two of you are SO DAMN OLD with this thing that I haven't even read it in the last two days".

What's your role in this exactly other than to disagree with us and our methods? You invited yourself to this thread and have been voluntarily reading and posting here. So please, stop with the melodramatics as if it is painful for you to post here or read this thread. You're fooling no one. Judging from your participation in so many threads here that don't concern you, one would have to conclude that you live for this. In other words Wes, you enjoy this.

Please, if you're going to quote me use the entire line and quit taking things out of context to suit your needs. I'm sort of tired of this coming back to explain what I REALLY said game you keep playing.

A testament to the fact that you are enjoying this since you continue to entertain the "game" he keeps "playing". It takes two to play a game. If you're so tired of coming back, then don't. Trust me, your tiring bullying tactics and suffocating arrogance won't be missed!

"If you really want to prove that felice did this heinous deed find some of the offspring and breed them".

If I find some of the offspring, I would have to buy them to breed them. I don't buy crosses. Nice try Wes!

[Chris Kennard]

" I will clue you two into something here. It's not a contest to see who's right or wrong.

That's right, it's not a contest! It's a campaign to prove a wrongful act was commited. So long as people like yourself keep questioning the veracity of my posts, I will defend them without prejudice for the benefit of people who don't want to be misled in the future.

" Your coming on here time and time again is not helping your case".

That's nothing more to me than an opinion from a guy who is frustrated from taking so many beatings from two guys he hates. You will say almost anything in a desperate attempt to discredit us whether you believe us or not just because you "don't like us". Never mind what this board is here for Wes. You are the furthest thing from a selfless person that I've ever had the pleasure of engaging. If anyone is turning this into a "wrong/right" contest, it's YOU! Your opinions on this matter are weak at best. Give it up.

[Anaconda Al]

In a new development in the Felice case, Wes Pollock has revealed in the "Hell" forum (Pollock/Gubitz) thread that he no longer knows whether he believes that Felice is Guilty or not. This new position of We's is in stark contrast to the many comments made by Wes on this thread that state that it is OBVIOUS that Felice is guilty. What is it that changed Wes's position so drastically? An email that Wes claims Felice sent him, that's what. But there's a snag! Wes refuses to post the email that he claims has information that led him to re-evaluate his own position on Felice. I'm sure that if he were to post that email on this thread, where it belongs, maybe "Newbies", or others making serious inquiries about Felice, will have a much better basis for assessing the risk of dealing with someone who has been given a bad reputation as a result of Wes derogatory comments about Felice on this thread. Since Wes has now "changed his tune", I believe that he should come on here and explain his new attitude about Felice.


The following is post, mad in "hell", by Davey Fig. I believe that Davey sums the situation up rather nicely:

The following is an excellent post by Davey Fig:

"posted on both hell threads
I apologize to you now Wes. I see now that your"180" was more of a 90° turn. However, you were very hardcore in your persuit of truth in the Felice thread, even a little over the top. All of the bad things that you said were public, all of the stuff you based those things on were public.

Now, you are not so sure, and that is fine. I often read threads where I feel very strongly about something, and am enlightened by something within the thread and have a change of heart. If you think that a lot of the things that were said in that thread could be wrong, and have information that would lead the common reader into rethinking his stance on the issue, are you not doing a disservice by holding that information?

That thread makes Felice look pretty bad, and you have something that could neutralize the publics view of him. Why not share?

Its basically like running into a bar yealling "This guy [**censored**]ed my wife, beat my kids and ate my big piece of chicken", and getting the whole place riled up, and then talking to him in the parking lot, findidng out it wasn't him, saying sorry, and NOT going back to tell everyone that there is something else they should know.

It seems like you are hiding this information only to keep yourself from being embarassed, but we know you had a change of opinion, I just think it needs to be shared, so that maybe it would help others see the light"

For starters Wes, would you please post that email that Felice sent you?

[Anaconda Al]

here is Wes's stance:

"If anyone other that kunny or an-al wants to see the email felice sent me, email me and if you’ve been a member more than six months, I don’t trust those two not to try to get it with an alias, I will forward it to you. I do not want the tweedletwins to read it. I am just being vindictive here because I really don’t like them and I REALLY think they’d like to know what felice had to say. It’s sort of like the playground bully holding the ball just out of reach of the little kids and telling them to JUMP"


I believe that Wes should put his petty "playground bully" tactics aside in "the interest of truth", which is a phrase that Wes has attributed to himself many times over. Let "the interest of truth" guide you to do the right thing here Wes!

[Chris Kennard]

These are some of the very strong quotes by Wes Pollock in this thread...

" I don't know of anyone who thinks felice is innocent. I know a lot of us would like him to come here and say he is or prove it. Doesn't look likely at this point. There, I've said it AGAIN. Did it sink in this time???"

"In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice"

"How many times do you have to make a point before you believe someone believes you?"

" Even though I do agree with you guys on this one as well as the albury one you seem to miss that time and time again. How can such clever guys as you and kennard keep missing that?"

"felice has dug himself a pretty deep hole here."

" No, I would not buy anything from felice."

"kennard, I am not saying I don't believe what you are saying here. I have a feeling you're right "


In speaking with felice myself, well by email in the interest of truth, and hearing/reading some points about kennard and an-al that he did not make on the thread about him, I must say that I do indeed have my doubts and reservations whereas before those doubts were scant".

Enter the new information that Wes supposedly has that would absolve Dan of some of the suspicion he is subject to. By Wes...

"In speaking with felice myself, well by email in the interest of truth, and hearing/reading some points about kennard and an-al that he did not make on the thread about him, I must say that I do indeed have my doubts and reservations whereas before those doubts were scant".

I felt this this was open to interpretation leaving him the benefit of the doubt until I read another statement by Wes...

"I have excercised my right as a thinking reasoning being to take into account information to which I was not previously privy and publicly state that I can no longer state with the conviction I previously posessed that felice crossed those drymarchons".

Pretty strong words Wes. Don't you owe it to Dan to post something that would soften the blow you gave him previously? After all, by your own admission, you need proof of your accusations. You said it yourself in a post to Sal...

"As you know from previous dealings with the BOI, you really need to provide proof of your accusations".
A list written by you with amounts of what YOU say you paid for the animals is simply NOT good enough.
Let's see some invoices. Let's see some reciepts".

"Have you made good an ALL the bad deals you had out and uncompleted? All the cages that were never shipped or broken during shipping have been made good on? All the animals you sold to people have been shipped and were honestly represented"?

"Please post proof that what you say is true. Verifiable proof that can be checked for veracity by readers here. If that proof is not forthcoming or is for ANY reason unavailable.......... well someone said Karma was going to get you someday. Is it today or do you have the proof"?
Wes Pollock

[Chris Kennard]

"I can no longer state with the conviction I previously posessed that felice crossed those drymarchons".

That must have been an incredibly convincing e-mail. That would imply that I have lied about something regarding this matter. You have expressed your hatred for me many times. Why would you suppress something that would make me look bad?

[Wilomn]

Nice try kunnard but, like I said previously I WILL NOT post that email where you can read it.

I will gladly send out 8,000+ emails to fauna readers who ARE NOT you or your parntner in slime an-al.

Anyone who wants to see it and has been a member here at least 6 months, as both of these crybabies are known for using multiple personalities, I will gladly forward you a copy of the email felice sent to me, completely unsolicited and unexpectedly. He just figured a little background on kennard would be useful and I think he was right.

Just like I will continue the saga of my upbringing in the trailor that my uncle owns with my eleventy six or eleventy seven, never did get an accurate count, brothers and sisters and our adventures with that big ol' wolf looking dog that used to give the littleuns rides on her back.

You SURE were interested in the FIRST chapter of that one weren't you kennard. In fact if I recall CORRECTLY, you BELIEVED the whole thing was TRUE, lock stock and barrel.

It was because of that belief that I through out the little quip that has chapped your hide ever since.

I had the audacity to wonder if someone with the mental fortitude, or lack thereof, to believe my bit of MAKE BELIEVE might not have the HABIT of believing EVERYTHING he's told, be it true or not.

It's not MY FAULT you can't tell good writing/story telling from reality. Nor is it my fault that, having SO BLATANTLY fallen for it once, that I wonder if it is within the realm of possibility that maybe, just perhaps, it was NOT THE FIRST time you had done that.

Wes Pollock

[Chris Kennard]

Your childish excuses and personal vendettas are unacceptable and unequivocally detrimental to the success of the BOI that you have the PRIVILEGE of using. You are making a mockery of this board. Your unacceptable use of language should be left in the "Hell" forum where it belongs.

[Anaconda Al]

"Nice try kunnard but, like I said previously I WILL NOT post that email where you can read it.

I will gladly send out 8,000+ emails to fauna readers who ARE NOT you or your parntner in slime an-al.

Anyone who wants to see it and has been a member here at least 6 months, as both of these crybabies are known for using multiple personalities, I will gladly forward you a copy of the email felice sent to me, completely unsolicited and unexpectedly. He just figured a little background on kennard would be useful and I think he was right"


Why are you so suddenly committed a "behind-the-scenes" Modus Operandi? You vow to go to great lengths (Privately sending 8,000 emails) to keep vital information off the BOI. Why? Are you afraid that, as Davey Fig suggested, you will be embarassed that the email contains absolutely nothing that would change a reasonable man's mind regarding Felice? Will that email show that you are now making a mockery of the BOI by flip-flopping on a matter that involves someone's reputation solely for the attempt to show that Kennard beilived a "story" by Felice. Do you have any respect for the BOI? If so, stand behind your opinions and post that email if you have nothing to hide!

[Chris Kennard]

"He just figured a little background on kennard would be useful and I think he was right".

That's interesting that you got information that would make me look bad and are afraid to expose me to the opportunity to refute it. Perhaps your interest in keeping it concealed is more selfish than I had originally thought.

[Wilomn]

Webslave, sorry Hell is leaking all over today. Some of its members really SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to post anywhere BUT hell, and yes I mean an-al and kennard.

In the interest of truth I am posting IN TOTAL a post I put in hell.

an-al and his ponypal kennard take quotes from different threads about different issues and try to use them to mean things different from that which the original authors meant.

They insert words NEVER said by the author, words said ONLY by an-al and kennard, and try to pass them off as having been said by the original author. They do not attribute the quotes they use to either the thread they come from or even to the author often enough to keep track of who said what. Both an-al and kennard have lied about things I have said and not said to TRY and convince readers that what THEY say is the truth.

They are desparate to see the email felice sent me and I will not let them get their grubby little paws on it and they are FURIOUS about that. That fury has resulted in the tantrum that has now spilled over into the BOI.

My appologies as it is, if you look at it just crooked enough, my fault. Not since kennyboy yates has anyone been so easy to infuriate.

Originally posted by wilomn
The below quote is from page 5 of the felice thread located here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30174&perpage=5&pagenumber=5 and here is the quote from kunnard


Jeff (sigh)
"My mind is most certainly not made up. However, in reading most of your posts I feel that you are making leading comments. Comments crafted to take a reader to the conclusion you wish them to draw".

Trust me, your "mind", "most certainly" not being "made up" is not a great concern of mine. Let me remind you that I originally came here to defend myself, not to cater to you.

"1. A hook-up between an Eastern and a Uni at Dans house.
2. That hook-up produced a viable clutch that was incubated to term by Dan.
3. Dan deliberately misrepresented those offspring as Texans to his customers".

These things happened. I answered the first, have stated the third, which means the second would have to exist, lol. A child could have figured that out.


"Those sort of statements go a long way towards substantiating your allegation, and putting you on record.
Anything short of that sort of account of the events is not sufficient to lay to rest other possibilities."


Record, lol. What record? Is that why you think I'm here? I didn't come here to lay anything "to rest" or to get "on record".


"I would offer that you do have something to gain here. You and Dan appear to have had a falling out. Circumstances of which are none of my business, but vindictiveness can be a powerful motive".



I am not here to "gain" anything. There is nothing to "gain" I've lost a friend who I happen to like pal. If thinking that I am being "vindictive" makes you cozy and warm inside because you think it lends creedence to that fact that your "spousel unit" is holding pure Texans, happy herping! But don't come on here with your condescending remarks and expect me to be cooperative. Perhaps you could answer a few questions yourself. How many e-mails have you and Dan exchanged on this matter? When was the last one? What was his side of the story to you. What was his excuse for not defending himself here? What was his response to your questions to him about selling my brother one of the offspring as crosses? What was his response to you with regard to "Project Bluebook"? If you haven't exchanged e-mails regarding this matter and asked him these questions, why not? He has had visitors from the Indigo forum in 02. Why hasn't he solicited them to testify that they saw Texas Indigos at his house. Why would I make up such an elaborate story about this isolated (hopefully) incident? Can you possibly be this dense? I think I've said all that need be said. Any more questions, ask Dan. Listen, I know it's no fun realizing that you've been had, but don't "kill" the messenger. Go to the source of the problem and start demanding answers on here from Dan Felice. I have taken the time to post at length on your behalf. Dan hasn't. Enough said.
__________________
Chris Kennard



This next quote is also from kunnard in the same thread. It’s VERY interesting. This post is on page 4 of that thread.

So it appears that having never seen ACTUAL copulation, and from what kunnard says he was there to see but did not actually VERIFY, he has now come to the conclusion that there was not only a fertile breeding but that eggs were laid, hatched and sold. All this based on pure speculation. Something smells fishy here.

“I was a regular guest at Dan's house and saw those snakes on a regular bases. Did I take a microscope and invade the snakes' privacy to see if there was penetration? No, I didn't.”

Once again, kunnard DID NOT VERIFY that ANY SNAKES bred. OK, gotcha.



The next quote is from felice. Knowing kunnard as I now do and having had my turn as recipiant of his ceaseless posts I can FULLY understand the desire to simply f#ck with his mind. Hmmmmm, didn’t I unintentionally do that myself? Seems it’s not that hard to do and little kunnard doesn’t like it being known too much. Poor gullible kunny.


"yeah stupid, there was a fib told......to you about 2 years ago precisely for
the reason you constantly demonstrate here.....YOUR A BIG MOUTH!!! you sound
like an 11 year old girl! and btw, who made you prosecutor and answerable to
anyway????? are you like an idiot or something mr. 'i'll save you guys'? WE know
what's going on, YOU don't and that's the way WE like it. too bad you weren't
born in 1929......you would've been PERFECT hitler youth material. you know, the
little snitches that ran around telling on everyone in town? you're a FREAKIN'
disgrace i swear to God!! and cunnard, that's how EVERYONE feels about you. your
word is WORTHLESS @ KS. you have succeeded in being despised and banned in every
forum there is. oh, and i guess you forgot your password again huh 'brain cell'?
that's why your on your 120th name change. gee, and all this time i thought it
was because of your loathful approach personality. now, a little refresher
course mentally challenged one: everybody's happy, you're in the dark [as usual]
and your 'services' are no longer required. OR, you can just keep fanatically
ranting like retardo boy. knock yourself out sport........."


Now, this next little tidbit was posted by kunny. The first bit is felice and then kunny comes in. Very interesting to say the least. It’s on page 12 of the felice thread.

"no cunnard, i don't know what you mean. i haven't a clue......you are beyond
hope at this point. i feel very, very sorry for you. LAST WORD SMOOTH: you were
never in the loop. you only have yourself to blame for that."

”Why would I EVER want to be part of a "loop" that condones your actions? I'm happy to blame myself for disassociating myself with fraudulant behavior.”


So, apparently, if kunny is to be believed, he KNEW that felice was engaging in fraudulent behavior and condoned it.



I now suspect that I may, just may have backed the wrong horse in backing little kunny against felice. However, felice is not coming off all sweetness either. I still have my doubts about both of them.

This is my FIRST post in this thread and appears on page 21

Is this a pissing match between an-al and kennard vs. anyone who, while agreeing with them in total disagrees with their methods or is a thread about dan's mis-representation of his stock? It's really getting hard to tell.

You two, an-al and kennard, seem to think that just because you were behind the outing of albury that you are some sort of detective gods here. You ain't. You may be members but, that does not give you the right to jump all over anyone who questions your methods. In the end you were right with albury and it sure seems you are with felice but, why are you such arrogant antagonistic jerks all the time?

Lighten up boys.

Wes Pollock


I believe the following is my 4th or 5th post on this thread.
an-al you continue to misquote me. The entire quote also asked why you and your pal kennard are so arrogantly antagonistic. You keep leaving that out. How come.

I was not reluctant to say you were right about albury. I simply stated it. Unless you are one of those little voices I carry around with me, which I doubt, please do not ASSume to know what I think or why I think it.

As far as your question about the reaction if I had been the one to question felice there are some important things about us that are different. Let me explain:

While I am outspoken I am not anywhere near as antagonistic as you. If someone disagrees with me and has a good reason to do so I don't beat them over the head with the same facts over and over and over and over again as you seem to relish doing.

I don't have it out for you or kennard. I just don't like the way you act here. So I guess I don't really like you that much either. However, I do not let it get personal or my feelings hurt the way you seem to. You sure do seem to care a whole lot what I and a few others here think about you and your pal kennard. You've made some good points and also made an ass out of yourselves more than once.

The true telling point in the difference between us is that you have lied. You have blown much of the little credibility you got for outing albury with your methods and willingness to lie eleanor, er an-al.

I can completely understand you using me to measure yourself against but, don't you think it's a little severe for you to try such a high standard right off? On the scale of some floridians you're a great guy but, you really don't make the grade, as yet, with some of us west coasters.

If you leave me alone I'll pretty much leave you alone. And you really should try not to be so arrogant or antagonistic. You're not that good. Look at Brian Oakley, now there's a good role model. Cool calm and collected. And honest. You know that's a stickler with me. You really blew it there an-al. Lighten up a tad and be honest and maybe you'll measure up someday. Maybe.

Hey, how is it you only got charged $10.00 for being banned when you came back under a false name too? Talk about playing favorites.

Wes Pollock

this one is from page 32 by an-al



”Regarding your effort to portray Chris Kennard as though he were just as culpable as Felice, because Kennard knew about Felice's seedy ways, yet said nothing: GO AHEAD AND START YOUR OWN THREAD ABOUT CHRIS KENNARD SINCE YOU SEEM TO BE SO OUTRAGED! (LOL!) By the way, you might want to read this thread again before you, yet again, end up looking like an idiot, as Kennard has already addressed your irrelevant observation. Chris Raden already made the same mistake.”


Then there is this gem from kunny himself. Note how HE has put in quotes a sentence at the end. Who here thinks he may have meant others to think that I, spelled with a capitol letter I, wrote that line? I didn’t. Just another of his efforts to PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH THAT I NEVER SAID. It is also on page 32.

But if you want to start a "bad guy" thread on me, lol, by all means, quote away. Surely you have alot of dirt on me. Make sure you start with...

"Chris is a terrible guy because he wants people here to be protected from being misled and ripped off. I hate him for that"! THIS IS THE LINE THAT kunny SEEMINGLY WANTS ATTRIBUTED TO ME, I NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT.


I believe that kunny has, at least 30 or 40 times asked someone to post proof of an-al speaking for him. I have already done so a time or two but this next one really brings it home. It is also on page 32 of the felice thread.

1) There's nothing wrong with crossing Indigo's, so even if Chris Kennard, not Felice, were the one who bred an Eastern Indigo to a Unicolored Cribo HE WOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

2) "Project Blue Book" was coined to represent the fact that Felice didn't want the "core" members of the KS Indigo forum to know that he was committing the biggest "no-no" possible within that circle. It was very important to Felice to deceive the "Good Ol' Boys' there into thinking that he was a solid "core" member who was appalled at the though of crossing the most elite snake on the planet! So, initially, "Project Blue Book" had nothing to do with SELLING snakes. (Am I going slow enough for you so far?)

3) Later, Felice mentioned to his friend at the time, Chris Kennard, that he was misrepresenting his crosses as "Texans" to a guy named Steve, and he "hoped that Steve wouldn't find out the truth". This is where Felice committed a "crime", as you so eloquently put it.

4) At this point, Kennard didn't know who "Steve" was, nor did he care. In addition, he knew nothing about Fauna Classifieds and he was friends with Felice, so why would he be obligated to say anything, and to whom?

5) As Kennard already spelled out on this thread (learn how to read Wes), he found out who "Steve" was when Jeff Nichol's wife posted on KS in 10/03. That's when kennard "spilled the beans" on KS, and yes, he and Felice were no longer friends.

6) Kennard did not start this thread on Fauna. Felice, in response to the negative publicity on KS about his reputation, obviously manipulated Lee McMurtry into posting a pre-emptive "Good Guy" thread about Felice (LOL!).

7) Kennard didn't post here until Chris Raden bashed him on the first page of this thread.


There is yet another thread about the LACK of morals in regards to kennard. It’s only about 7 pages and was started, as have all the threads I’ve started about these two, at THEIR request.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33165&perpage=5&pagenumber=2

This is from page 2 on that thread. Seamus pretty well sums things up here.

I haven't read the other thread, but there doesn't seem to be much debate here about the actions Chris took... if I recap them, can Wes and Al both verify that the impression I have formed from this thread is accurate?

Chris was friends with Dan.

Dan wanted to become considered an elite keeper on the KS forums.

Dan was creating hybrid animals and selling them as pure indigos.

Chris said nothing about this, despite his knowledge of the situation, until he and Dan had a falling out for other, undisclosed, reasons.

There is something very wrong with creating hybrid animals and representing them as being a pure species the same goes for breeding intergrades and representing them as a pure subspecies or crossing locales and forgetting to mention it. It's fraudulent and it misrepresents the product in a manner which could potentially contaminate a larger population. Without getting into my personal views about hybridization... misrepresenting an animal is clearly not ethical.

The question then becomes... is there some guilt ascribed to someone who was aware of a misrepresentation but chose not to speak up at the time because it was a friend who was commiting the act?

This is something everyone will have to answer for themselves but I beleieve that many people would see this as being wrong. By allowing a friend to do something unethical, it condones the actions and adds some guilt to anyone who knew that the misrepresentation was happening. While it can be said that Chris was unaware of who the specific cross(es?) were sold to, he still chose not to make the information public that such a sale had happened- allowing it to potentially happen to others. While it's nowhere near as bad as the original action, it's still aiding and abetting (I've been watching Law and Order and the term sounds appropriate) and while there would be no legal recourse, such an action (or inaction as the case may be) can certainly have an impact in the court of public opinion.
Seamus Haley

"Genes, like Leibnitz's monads, have no windows; the higher properties of life are emergent... And once assembled, organisms have no windows."
- Edward Wilson, Sociobiology

"Trust me, Randy knows what he's talking about." -Ian



OK, back to the felice thread, page 35. Lee McMurty wrote
Again against my better judgement...

Chris - I re-read the entire thread - all 170 posts to date. Of those posts 105 were from you or Rob Dunleavy, and doesn't include posts that Rob submitted under an alias that were removed by moderators. Now, many of those posts were your responses to people posting about you (28 posts), and I can see why you would want to defend yourself, but I do think that I can safely say that these were, for the most part, off topic. The thread, entitled "Dan Felice - Good Guy" was about my experience with Dan - other topics are, by definition, off topic. And lest you feel singled out, I felt that ALL of those posts back and forth between you and Jeff, Chris R, Wendy, Wes etc. were off topic, which is why I quit reading the thread.
Rob - I failed to find a way in which you contributed to the thread except to say, in essence "I believe what Chris has told me". Do you have any first hand knowledge of Dan and previous dealings to support the things that you allege? And why post under different names?
For both Chris and Rob - you may not like what Wes had to say, but he has a point. Especially in a forum like this, how you say things can be as important as what you say. The personal issues back and forth, the cross posting, posting under aliases - it all undermines your credibility, even if your message carries the truth. You clearly want people to believe you, to the extent of posting repeatedly about the issue, so let your actions support your words, not detract from them.
As far as the truth goes, I have no idea what the truth is in the matter of Dan and the hybrid cribos. I've heard your version, I've heard Dan's version, and there's been a lot of extraneous supposition along the way.

My my my, how interesting was that post????


Then we have this little tidbit from an-al on page 40. It seems that if I, honorary mayor of hell that I am, even IMPLY something then it must, in fact, be truth. I had no idea I was so powerful. An implication the same as fact. I must admit, I had no idea those two words meant the same thing.

Who in their right mind would start their own "bad guy" thread on Chris Kennard BASED SOLELY ON HIS KNOWING THAT FELICE CROSSED HIS INDIGO and then afterward claim that "nowhere in there did I ever state conclusively that I KNEW he did." In order to regard Kennard as guilty, isn't it IMPLIED that you have to, first, be CONVINCED of Felice's guilt?



The next bit in quotes are my words quoted by an-al in the same post as above on page 40 of the felice thread. The words following are all an-al’s. It seems that no one who he, an-al, says was ripped off by felice either was or cares enough to come here and talk about it.

"If you really want to prove that felice did this heinous deed find some of the offspring and breed them"

Sorry MR INDECISION, but we've already proved it. Felice ripping Steve Fuller WAS something that happened IN THE PAST! Felice ripping off Jeff Nichols WAS something that happened IN THE PAST! And, most important, it is now IN THE PAST that you accused Kennard as being guilty like Felice just for knowing about Felice's dirty little secret.
__________________
Rob Dunleavy



In the interest of honesty I include the following post by an-al on page 40 of the felice thread. I did, when I stated the words quoted, believe that felice looked good for having crossed and sold hybrids. Needless to say I have since changed my mind and now have no idea whether or not he did. Note that I also did not say that I know of anyone who thinks felice is guilty. Of course I knew that an-al and his ponypal kunny thought he was but, I had just fertilized the roses and had no use for their comments. They simply CANNOT be trusted.

Wes
"I don't know of anyone who thinks felice is innocent. I know a lot of us would like him to come here and say he is or prove it. Doesn't look likely at this point. There, I've said it AGAIN. Did it sink in this time???"


These are YOUR words Wes - see page 32 if you have any doubt!

Pretty strong statement of your belief in his guilt, wouldn't you say?

It's certainly a far cry from your current position that "maybe his is, maybe he isn't".

Keep it real Wes!
__________________
Rob Dunleavy



This next one, and sorry for sooooooooo many quotes but I want to be thorough and not have to do this again, is from kunny on page 41 of the felice thread. Somehow he has gotten into my mind and now knows what I think BETTER THAN I DO!!!!! I though only a woman could do that to a man……

"Judging from your participation in so many threads here that don't concern you, one would have to conclude that you live for this. In other words Wes, you enjoy this."

Yup ponypal, you’re right. I am here soley for the joy I derive by interaction with the likes of you and an-al.
Bugs bunny said it before and he still has it right:

WHAT A MAROON!!!

If anyone other that kunny or an-al wants to see the email felice sent me, email me and if you’ve been a member more than six months, I don’t trust those two not to try to get it with an alias, I will forward it to you. I do not want the tweedletwins to read it. I am just being vindictive here because I really don’t like them and I REALLY think they’d like to know what felice had to say. It’s sort of like the playground bully holding the ball just out of reach of the little kids and telling them to JUMP.

JUMP an-al
JUMP kunny

Wes Pollock

Perhaps this thread should be closed with a re-direct back to hell.

[Anaconda Al]

If that email has a revelation that is so earth-shattering, given the fact that Felice's reputation was ruined once you initially voiced your opinion of his guilt on this thread, WHY DIDN"T?DOESN"T HE POST THAT REVELATION HIMSELF RIGHT ON THIS THREAD, WHERE IT COUNTS, TO SAVE HIS OWN BUTT?

I think that you are lying about having anything convincing that would have changed your mind about Felice. I think that you were so hellbent on being able to say that Kennard is capable of believing phony stories that you abandoned your true beliefs, which were expressed pretty strongly on this forum, at the expense of the BOI. You now find yourself caught in a lie, and you don't seem to know how to get out of the hole you dug. Here's a suggestion: Come clean! Either post that email or admit that your petty desire to trash Kennard got the best of you. Until you do either of those two things, I'm embarassed for you! Good luck!

[Anaconda Al]

but dumping all that garbage from "Hell" onto this thread won't divert anyone's attention away from the fact that you have flip-flopped about Felice AND YOU DIDN"T HAVE THE DECENCY TO POST YOUR CHANGE OF HEART ON THIS THREAD. FELICE'S REPUTATION IS ON THE LINE. YOU BURIED HIM AND LOUDLY PROCLAIMED HOW OBVIOUS IT WAS THAT HE IS GUILTY. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND AND DIDN"T THINK IT WAS WORTH MENTIONING HERE??????????? WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU? IF YOU NO LONGER THINK THAT FELICE IS GUILTY, THEN SAY SO! IF YOU THINK THAT THAT EMAIL VINDICATES FELICE, THEN, BY ALL MEANS, POST IT HERE. ANYTHING SHORT OF THAT IS CHILDISH BEHAVIOR ON YOUR PART!

You say:

"Perhaps this thread should be closed with a re-direct back to hell."

Why Wes? You are a major party to the Felice matter and that email that you claim he sent you could significantly change what people think of his reputation. Why are you in such a rush to stifle a legitimate discussion? What are YOU hiding Wes???????????????????????????????????? Let's have that email!

[Chris Kennard]

"Perhaps this thread should be closed with a re-direct back to hell".

Of course you do! Forget about the people who this board is trying to protect. Let's just take every thread where someone exposes you for being a hypocrite and get it out of the BOI before anyone sees you for who you really are. Why do you think that you should be exempt from being placed under the same scrutiny as anyone else here? We are certainly not denying you or Dan of your ability to participate here and so far we have been quite civil, unlike you.

This thread did not originate in "Hell" Wes, thus making your statement to "redirect" it quite inacurate. This is where it belongs. If you try to turn it into a chaotic one to suit your campaign to get it out of the public eye, I hope the mods will recognize your posts as such and suspend or ban you altogether. Let's talk business Wes.

[Anaconda Al]

"Let's talk business Wes."

In light of Wes's following comments:

"If anyone other that kunny or an-al wants to see the email felice sent me, email me and if you’ve been a member more than six months, I don’t trust those two not to try to get it with an alias, I will forward it to you. I do not want the tweedletwins to read it. I am just being vindictive here because I really don’t like them and I REALLY think they’d like to know what felice had to say. It’s sort of like the playground bully holding the ball just out of reach of the little kids and telling them to JUMP"

I don't think that Wes has any interest in "talking business" here.

He comes right out and says: "I am just being vindictive here"! "The interest of truth" that the BOI exists for has been overshadowed and dwarfed by Wes's desire to behave like the "playground bully"! Whatever happened to his description of himself as the "guard dog" that protects other Fauna members from none other than - "the playground bully"? Wes, you go ahead with your juvenile agenda to satisfy your childish desires, but remember that your refusal to post Felice's email pretty much seals your fate as someone who frequents the BOI to unleash your "schoolyard-bully" desires, AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BOI! You've shown that you have no respect for the legitimate fact-finding process that is going to take place on the BOI - WITH OR WITH OUT YOU! Whatever you do, don't let the world see that email! LOL!

[Dr Owens]

The personal vendetta between you three needs to go back to "Hell" where it belongs. Stop dragging your bickering from that forum back to the BOI.

[Chris Kennard]

Lee Mcmurtry wrote-
"Dan's version is his to tell.
My interpretation of Dan's version would be more third-hand "evidence" and unlikely to make any difference in the minds of those who have managed to put up with this thread thus far. I will say that his version explains why Chris perceives things as he does (I am NOT saying its the truth, because I can't possibly know that. His story isn't any more or less implausible than Chris'.) He didn't say who gave him the eggs or where the hatchlings went, and I didn't ask".

Wes Pollock wrote-
"In speaking with felice myself, well by email in the interest of truth, and hearing/reading some points about kennard and an-al that he did not make on the thread about him, I must say that I do indeed have my doubts and reservations whereas before those doubts were scant".

Very telling, yet at the same time evasive, similar posts. What obligation to Dan could possibly keep you guys from exposing the excuses that Dan is relaying privately? If it was important enough to mention here and was convincing enough to you to make the readers wonder whether or not Dan is to be trusted, then why would you be so afraid to expose me to the opportunity to refute the "alibis" that Dan is dishing out privately. You guys decided to make it known that there is a possibility that I could be wrong based on private correspondance. Prove it.

[Wilomn]

kunnard, you and your pal an-al brought it to the BOI.

felice sent me an email. One I did not expect to recieve as I had never corresponded with him. It brought to light an interesting fact or two which DID cause me to doubt you.

Combine that with the fact that you SO READILY confuse OBVIOUS fiction like the story I wrote with reality and you have the basis for my no longer being POSITIVE that felice did as you AND YOU ALONE have claimed he did.

You and your pal an-al are sooooooooo very desparate to see that email, the one I will not post here where you can see it but will supply to anyone who is a long time member of Fauna, that you have ONCE AGAIN disregarded the DIRECT instructions to keep your mess in Hell.

I will not respond again on this thread.

I do not have to post that email JUST BECAUSE YOU AND YOUR PAL an-al want to read it. I've said that several times.

If ANYONE else would like to see it they have only to email me and ask.

That's as good as it gets.

Wes Pollock

[Chris Kennard]

"felice sent me an email. One I did not expect to recieve as I had never corresponded with him. It brought to light an interesting fact or two which DID cause me to doubt you".

So long as you refuse to post the e-mail,any relevance to your comments is non-existent. Being such a stickler for proof and all yourself, you should know that's how it works here. You've staed as such yourself.

"Combine that with the fact that you SO READILY confuse OBVIOUS fiction like the story I wrote with reality and you have the basis for my no longer being POSITIVE that felice did as you AND YOU ALONE have claimed he did".

Explain that, please. What exactly does my entertaining a few paragraphs of a supposed "story" that you told, have to do with this matter? Dan wanted you to believe (he apparently was successful) that " there was a fib told" to me two years ago. I do not ackowledge that a "fib" or "story" existed. Your argument here is without basis and irrelevant.

Now unless you and Lee would like to submit anything that is refutable, I suggest you stop waisting time here and defying the purpose of this board with these childish games (I'm not gonna' show it, cause I don't like him bebebe). Please Wes. Let's do this right or not at all. This is the BOI. Let's use it wisely. I'm happy, and always have been, to answer and refute anything asked of me which I have proven time and time again. Once again, what say you cut the crap and let's talk business? I'm not asking anyone to re-hash. You have info not posted here yet that directly relates to this thread (e-mail from Dan)? Post it or forever hold your peace.

[battaboom]

Should these threads not be combined? They show a pattern that reflects the true Felice. Over and out.

[battaboom]

Thought this was an important tid-bit of info and warranted an update.
Posted by Steve Fuller on KS...

Unicolors have hatched

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: steve fuller at Thu Jul 21 16:19:42 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Unicolors hatched this week. Out of eleven eggs 4.2 were normal. Other five were aberrant: more slender than normal, different shaped head, and much more patterned. Of those five three were dead in the egg. Photo doesn't really show what abnormal hatchling looks like. Last year only one hatchling in the clutch was like this.

What's going on? I kept eggs cooler this year. Fat Bastard and mate are siblings. Obtained them as hatchlings from Dan Felice three years ago.
You do the math.

[Chris Kennard]

For those who may be interested in buying any Texans, beware. Felice's crosses are still at large....

http://indigosnakes.com/images/DO_TI1.jpg

This, as well as the link submitted in this thread of another cross produced by Felice...,

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=87642


....is from Felice's stock and has been viewed by many legitimate big guns in the herp industry (not the "core") who have identified it as the obvious cross that it is. The Eastern/Uni crosses Felice misrepresented as Texas Indigos are still polluting the gene pool. Make sure you get credible lineage info on future purchases. I have decided that in the best interest of the herp community and the closure of this issue, I am willing to pay for a polygraph test submitted to myself AND Felice by local authorities, which would be easily accomplished since Dan and I live only five minutes apart. I would of course submit the outcome publicly on this forum. WHAT SAY YOU, FELICE??? I would be glad to solicit questions from others who feel they have been scammed by Felice to be asked by the tester. Simple solution to a simple problem. Dan should be gung-ho to lay this to rest. Let me know when your available, Dan!

[Justin Mitcham]

If anyone would like to see what type of person Dan is go here... http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69650&highlight=Felice
..you can see how he behaves, lies , impersonating a cop to harrass and manipulate people, extortion the works... This guy is as bad as bad gets...pure 100% scum infested dirtbag...it doesn't surprise me in the least that he screwed people by selling them hybrids.He tried screwing me on a scam, I didn't put up with it in the least nor did the Detective that gave him a little visit. If you have problems with this guy call his area Police Department, they know who he is and will help.

[Chris Kennard]

Is he still under investigation? If not, can you post those e-mails here so people can see first hand the type of guy their dealing with?

[Chris Kennard]

It seems Dan has stirred up the hornets nest again, many people are accusing him for selling "hybrids" as pure's etc... In the midst of this turmoil many have asked me to post the emails that he sent me in the past. Some have made accusations that it seems "fishy" that I haven't and hint at some underlining motive. Since it has been made clear by a member that this bickering and rumors may have a negative impact on my character if I don't post(kinda like a veiled threat) I have decided to go ahead and post these emails.
Apparently it was not enough that the detective asked me not to do so, nor is it enough that several well known and respected members have seen these emails and have backed what I said up 100%. It seems peoples curiosity in the matter out ways any benefits that could be gained from keeping silent. I do not know if there are any ongoing investigations concerning Felice.It is my opinion that for every bad post on the BOI several go un posted. So I hope this doesn't affect anything they may have that is ongoing. Personally I believe the matter between Felice and I is considered closed by them.
So here goes....


He inquired to the availability of some subadult bulls I had for sale

Quote:
Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/6/2005 5:12:39 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net
CC:
BCC:
Sent on:


Sent from the Internet (Details)
Internet Address Card Attached

yes she is still available, if you like to pay by paypal, you can send it to this email address.
Justin
817-654-0650



I sent him my address and the total the next day.That's the last I heard from him till the 15th. No word on payment sent etc..
Below is the email I received from him..



Quote:
Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/15/2005 9:52:18 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

justin, you wanna let me know what's going on? i sent you the money a week ago by priority mail. it has been confirmed as delivered. please contact me. thanks.......dan



Not receiving anything from this guy and being a little confused this is the email I replied to him with..



Quote:
Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/15/2005 10:24:20 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net


Sorry , I don't understand what are you talking about, I vaguely remember sending you this email several days ago but I didn't hear back from you. Those snakes are no longer available, also I believe you are mistaken, I have not received anything from you.Who signed for it? And when? I just double checked and haven't cashed any extra money orders, what's your full name and is it the same that was on the MO?
Regards,
Justin



And this is where the fun begins...


Quote:
Subject: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 1:26:40 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

nice try justin. btw, i'm in dallas next month on business. remember who i am yet? I WANT MY MONEY BACK BUD or you're gonna get a very long, unpleasant visit. know what i'm talking about? you don't want me looking you up, believe me junior! cya real soon sweetie............:>]



I may have been out of line and a bit unprofessional in my reply..This guy went from 0 to straight under my skin in about the time it took me to read that 1st bad email..



Quote:
Subject: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 1:26:40 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

kiss my ass..I do not have your money, and I am not going to tolerate threats. Call whoever you bought the MO from they will tell you it wasn't cashed BY ME OR MY BANK. NOR DID I GET ANYTHING VIA USPS , I DID NOT SIGN FOR ANYTHING JERK,NOTHING WAS LEFT AT MY HOUSE PERIOD.This is your own damn problem not mine. I tried to help you in my 1st email to see what the hell you are talking about, but since you want to make stupid accusations , threats etc... you figure this problem out yourself. BTW.. I love to rumble, ask around, I am 240lbs of solid Texan, drop by anytime, I can handle myself well. And after I teach you some respect, I will then press charges on you just for kicks. By the way I want your full name so I know who this is. I do not remember you nor do I really care to at this point.
And when you send it..send it with evidence that the MO was CASHED BY ME (stupid ass probably lost it in the mail or it was misdelivered).
And I want to see my signature on something showing I did indeed receive this MO.
If you can't send me those details then it is obvious you are seriously mistaken...
...Sweetie!!!



This is where he claims to be a cop...


Quote:
Subject: Re: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 2:42:57 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

have it your way then youngblood.........i'm a cop. cya in july [unless you try to move by then] either way................:>]



I then called his bluff,was able to track down his name and address etc..and I called his local PD, there were ticked that he was claiming to be a cop to extort cash from me. They gave me a case # and i sent it to him informing him that he was now under investigation..he also tried slandering me on Kingsnake, luckily some friends saw the post and set him straight..


Quote:
Subject: Re: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 3:35:46 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net

hey,
here's the case # 05071471
nice try on the forums bud!!!
keep it up, post more stuff , that just digs you a deeper hole



This is his response..

Quote:

Subject: case #05071492 huh?
Date: 6/16/2005 4:50:05 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

is that right junior? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! are you an idiot or something??????????? justin, you're not talking to one of your smacked assed friends, get a grip! i just got off duty and was printed out your rather spastic messages for all to enjoy and for future use. uh, does your mommy know we're coming over to see you yet hotstuff? 'cause we are. you gotta ask yourself one question numbnuts, is $130 really worth what you're about to receive? arrest, detention, fines, record, probation, etc. snap out of it or pay the piper pipsqueak! ball's in your court, i ain't gonna mess w/ you!!! got my drift????????? see you soon unless i get my money back. oh and btw dense-one, this is not a threat, it's a promise. you can count on it!!! :>] see ya soon!!!!!!!!...............



Shortly after I forwarded that email to the Detective, Dan had a knock on the door...Guess Who???? one ticked off Detective.
After a little chat with Dan the Detective then contacted me and informed me that Dan will never bother me again and if he does he is going to be prosecuted.
That's it.... end of story!!!

[kmurphy]

This is like deja vu all over again. Same post by two different posters?

[WebSlave]

I would like an explanation of this one as well......

It seems Dan has stirred up the hornets nest again, many people are accusing him for selling "hybrids" as pure's etc... In the midst of this turmoil many have asked me to post the emails that he sent me in the past. Some have made accusations that it seems "fishy" that I haven't and hint at some underlining motive. Since it has been made clear by a member that this bickering and rumors may have a negative impact on my character if I don't post(kinda like a veiled threat) I have decided to go ahead and post these emails.
Apparently it was not enough that the detective asked me not to do so, nor is it enough that several well known and respected members have seen these emails and have backed what I said up 100%. It seems peoples curiosity in the matter out ways any benefits that could be gained from keeping silent. I do not know if there are any ongoing investigations concerning Felice.It is my opinion that for every bad post on the BOI several go un posted. So I hope this doesn't affect anything they may have that is ongoing. Personally I believe the matter between Felice and I is considered closed by them.
So here goes....


He inquired to the availability of some subadult bulls I had for sale
Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/6/2005 5:12:39 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net
CC:
BCC:
Sent on:


Sent from the Internet (Details)
Internet Address Card Attached

yes she is still available, if you like to pay by paypal, you can send it to this email address.
Justin
817-654-0650

I sent him my address and the total the next day.That's the last I heard from him till the 15th. No word on payment sent etc..
Below is the email I received from him..


Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/15/2005 9:52:18 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

justin, you wanna let me know what's going on? i sent you the money a week ago by priority mail. it has been confirmed as delivered. please contact me. thanks.......dan

Not receiving anything from this guy and being a little confused this is the email I replied to him with..


Subject: Re: Message about: ~SUB ADULT FEMALE HET BULLS~
Date: 6/15/2005 10:24:20 A.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net


Sorry , I don't understand what are you talking about, I vaguely remember sending you this email several days ago but I didn't hear back from you. Those snakes are no longer available, also I believe you are mistaken, I have not received anything from you.Who signed for it? And when? I just double checked and haven't cashed any extra money orders, what's your full name and is it the same that was on the MO?
Regards,
Justin

And this is where the fun begins...

Subject: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 1:26:40 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

nice try justin. btw, i'm in dallas next month on business. remember who i am yet? I WANT MY MONEY BACK BUD or you're gonna get a very long, unpleasant visit. know what i'm talking about? you don't want me looking you up, believe me junior! cya real soon sweetie............:>]

I may have been out of line and a bit unprofessional in my reply..This guy went from 0 to straight under my skin in about the time it took me to read that 1st bad email..


Subject: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 1:26:40 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

kiss my ass..I do not have your money, and I am not going to tolerate threats. Call whoever you bought the MO from they will tell you it wasn't cashed BY ME OR MY BANK. NOR DID I GET ANYTHING VIA USPS , I DID NOT SIGN FOR ANYTHING JERK,NOTHING WAS LEFT AT MY HOUSE PERIOD.This is your own damn problem not mine. I tried to help you in my 1st email to see what the hell you are talking about, but since you want to make stupid accusations , threats etc... you figure this problem out yourself. BTW.. I love to rumble, ask around, I am 240lbs of solid Texan, drop by anytime, I can handle myself well. And after I teach you some respect, I will then press charges on you just for kicks. By the way I want your full name so I know who this is. I do not remember you nor do I really care to at this point.
And when you send it..send it with evidence that the MO was CASHED BY ME (stupid ass probably lost it in the mail or it was misdelivered).
And I want to see my signature on something showing I did indeed receive this MO.
If you can't send me those details then it is obvious you are seriously mistaken...
...Sweetie!!!

This is where he claims to be a cop...

Subject: Re: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 2:42:57 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

have it your way then youngblood.........i'm a cop. cya in july [unless you try to move by then] either way................:>]

I then called his bluff,was able to track down his name and address etc..and I called his local PD, there were ticked that he was claiming to be a cop to extort cash from me. They gave me a case # and i sent it to him informing him that he was now under investigation..he also tried slandering me on Kingsnake, luckily some friends saw the post and set him straight..

Subject: Re: YO RIPOFF BOY!!!!!!!!!
Date: 6/15/2005 3:35:46 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: Asnakemann
Reply To:
To: dannio04@webtv.net

hey,
here's the case # 05071471
nice try on the forums bud!!!
keep it up, post more stuff , that just digs you a deeper hole

This is his response..


Subject: case #05071492 huh?
Date: 6/16/2005 4:50:05 P.M. Central Standard Time
From: dannio04@webtv.net
Reply To:
To: Asnakemann@aol.com

is that right junior? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! are you an idiot or something??????????? justin, you're not talking to one of your smacked assed friends, get a grip! i just got off duty and was printed out your rather spastic messages for all to enjoy and for future use. uh, does your mommy know we're coming over to see you yet hotstuff? 'cause we are. you gotta ask yourself one question numbnuts, is $130 really worth what you're about to receive? arrest, detention, fines, record, probation, etc. snap out of it or pay the piper pipsqueak! ball's in your court, i ain't gonna mess w/ you!!! got my drift????????? see you soon unless i get my money back. oh and btw dense-one, this is not a threat, it's a promise. you can count on it!!! :>] see ya soon!!!!!!!!...............

Shortly after I forwarded that email to the Detective, Dan had a knock on the door...Guess Who???? one ticked off Detective.
After a little chat with Dan the Detective then contacted me and informed me that Dan will never bother me again and if he does he is going to be prosecuted.
That's it.... end of story!!!

The above quote is from post #169 in this thread: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69650&page=34&pp=5

It appears that BOTH Chris Kennard and Justin Mitcham are posting the same thing? :toetap05:

I THINK I know what happened, but not everyone may figure it out.

[Chris Kennard]

I thought the post belonged here as well, since the threads were not merged and the e-mails show a side of Felice that would lend credence to my charges against Felice and his ability to be dishonest.

[WebSlave]

Maybe so, Chris, but the manner in which you posted that reply has it appearing that it is an ORIGINAL post made by you, and not a quote from someone else. This will most certainly confuse people. If you are QUOTING someone, you really need to indicate that it is actually a quote.

[Chris Kennard]

my mistake. Sorry Justin. I assumed people would know that post was originally from Justin.

[Chris Kennard]

Quotes by Dan Felice....

nice try justin. btw, i'm in dallas next month on business.
What business, lol. He's a roofer, and doesn't even have a good reputation for that. Did he have a roof to do in Texas? That must have been one high paying job!

have it your way then youngblood.........i'm a cop.
This couldn't be sadder. When Felice and I were on good terms, way back when, I got a call from him asking me to pick him up at the police station. When I did, he bragged about how much the cops hated him and they also couldn't keep handcuffs on him because his wrists were too small. I'm sure a background check would reveal many more interesting things about Felice.

i just got off duty and was printed out your rather spastic messages for all to enjoy and for future use.
Poetic "justice", Officer Felice, lol? Now Felice's "spastic messages" are here for all to enjoy and for future use.

After a little chat with Dan the Detective then contacted me and informed me that Dan will never bother me again and if he does he is going to be prosecuted.
Another dodged bullet by Felice! Another slap on the wrist.
My offer still stands Felice. Let's get that polygraph under way so people will know the truth about your crosses and can get them out of circulation asap. I know you are aware of these posts through your new spokesperson, Brett. So again, what say you Felice. I'll pay, we can do it at your leisure, and it won't take much time at all as only a small handfull of questions need be asked. You want to get rid of me for good? Fess up or take the test.

[Chris Kennard]

There has been talk of Uni, Blacktail crosses and browntails and some speculation as to the lack of purity in many captive Unicolor lines of Cribos. As Felice likes to consider himself the go-to guy for Unis, I would advise caution. There is an ongoing discussion on the Indigo forum at KS labled "Who's who" which addresses the topic of breeder lineages. When Felice was asked about his breeder's lineage, his answer was as follows....

RE: Dan, Locality Data?

[ Login ] [ User Prefs ] [ Search Forums ] [ Back to Main Page ]
[ Back to Indigo Forum ] [ Reply To This Message ]



Posted by: dan felice at Mon Jan 23 18:01:35 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

none that i know of bill, the people i got mine from didn't even know what they had really much less where they came from......


That's a RED FLAG in my book. How do you represent something as "pure" if you don't know where they came from??? Buyer beware!!!

[Chris Kennard]

I guess Felice viewed this thread and went back to KS to do his dance....


Posted by: dan felice at Mon Jan 23 18:49:10 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

i should add that my original breeders are wc imports, not somebody else's offspring......


So which is it Felice? How do you know they are wild caught when the sellers don't even know where they came from or what they had??? You're dancing!

[Chris Kennard]

Posted by: Sighthunter at Mon Jan 23 17:54:05 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
Is there any locality data or origin history on any of the adult breeders floating around out there?

Posted by: dan felice at Mon Jan 23 18:01:35 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
none that i know of bill, the people i got mine from didn't even know what they had really much less where they came from......

Posted by: dan felice at Mon Jan 23 18:49:10 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
i should add that my original breeders are wc imports, not somebody else's offspring......

[Chameleon Company]

But out of curiosity, and to refresh my memory, I went back to re-read the first few pages of this "Good Guy" post, that is in that category of BOI threads that started out good, but then took a quick turn for the worse. It is running concurrently with the "Dan Felice .... Lies Extortion, etc" thread which is also bouncing around here, with many of the same contibutors, posts etc. I was more familiar with the other thread, in which Dan's own emails to Justin paint him as someone with a few issues beyond rational, or certainly in need of some sound thought and maybe a year or two of just trying to do the right thing. While the threads have become intertwined, this thread began over two years ago as a "Good Guy" thread, but due to the candidness of Chris K., quickly revealed Dan as having problems misrepresenting hybrid Cribo's, etc. That's two major negative issues involving Dan in two concurrent threads, again with some inter-mixing. I would have to say that both threads illustrate voluntary stupidity where there was no legitimate expectation of anything to be gained .. just self-destruction and a quick buck which cost more than it paid. Kind of enlightening to once again be reminded that the messenger (Chris) is often attacked because of the message as well. I would like to think that Dan can go forward, and not repeat this deception and impulsive destruction of his reputation. So much for what I think !! This thread still has legs, and its about 26 months old. Like I said, I had nothing new to add.

[Chris Kennard]

But one loose end still infects this thread, and it's time to lift up the rug and sweep away the dirt. First off, I came to this site with a clean slate and a record of NEVER having scammed, ripped off, misrepresented animals or pursued someone who wasn't guilty of exactly the charges I submitted, and have maintaine that "good guy" "status". I'd say that gives me credibility, which is what most here have tried dilligently to falsely strip me of. My first agenda on this site was to weigh in on the "Fred Albury, buyer beware" thread where I was met with the first wave of resistance and slander, right out of the gates, namely by Felice's most staunch supporter and enabler....Gila (Chris Radon)....http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20265&page=8&pp=5&highlight=albury....Fred was proven to be everything I said, Gila disappeared. Cut to the "Felice, good guy" turned "bad guy" thread (this thread) where Gila again comes right out of the gates spewing what venom he could afford....
The person you are referring to is the same troll that has attacked almost every person who frequents that forum. He is banned by Kingsnake on a weekly basis and comes back under a different name each time. I know the person that the troll accused Dan of selling hybrids to. She owns Texas Indigos from other breeders and would know if she was sold a couperi/unicolor hybrid (which would probably not even resemble erebennus). I'd chalk that accusation up as BS
like everything else that comes out of that troll's mouth.
This speculative and weak post speaks for itself. Another unprovoked attack on Felice's behalf and more throughout this thread, trying to cast doubt every step along the way. But who's credibility and motives should be in question here really in light of the recent evidence SUPPORTING my charges that Felice is dishonest and deceptive?....quotes by Radon....
So you stole a boa because you had put yourself into debt from buying too many boas? Someone check this man into boa rehab. Did it ever occur to you to sell some of your boas to get yourself out of debt?

Why was this antagonistic phrase not submitted in the "Albury" thread to your friend?
You're getting off pretty easy considering that you really should be arrested for this. With all the "good guy", "bad guy" stuff we tend to forget that this was really no different than the burglar who breaks into your home and steals your property. I wonder if people who steal because of financial reasons ever consider the financial position of their victims.
Wow! Why was that post not applied to the "Albury" AND "Felice" threads???
I'm coming to the conclusion that if Neil comes to your defense it's like the kiss of death....He seems to have a soft spot for thiefs."
The above three quotes are taken from the Bill Leverton "Bad Guy" thread, where Chris Raden/"Gila" weighs in to make the profound statement that, if Neil Gubitz "comes to your defense it's like the kiss of death" (Raden made this comment around the time Felice was busy trying to scam Justin Mitchum, as illustrated on the "Felice-Extortion, lies, etc" thread). Because Felice, as usual, is virtually a "no show" in this thread, Raden, in effect, happens to be Felice's biggest "defender/mouthpiece". As a matter of fact, Raden basically dismissed anything that I claimed to be true about Felice's dirty little secret, based solely on Raden's claim that I have no credibility. Well, Raden, like a broken record, forever claims that Neil Gubitz has no credibility, and that he has a "soft spot for theives". I now refer you to the following link to witness the zealous defense that Neil Gubitz provided for Dan Felice, when Felice was caught in another one of Felice's scams....http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1734&highlight=felice
I wonder if Chris Raden cares to come on here and comment on the fact that, according to Chris Raden's own logic, Chris Raden would have to believe that Felice is "really no different than the burglar who breaks into your home and steals your property". After all, Neil Gubitz (the "kiss of death"), just like you, Raden, came to Felice's defense.
Also, being that you, Raden, campaigned to protect Felice in this thread, similar to how Lucille campaigned to protect Felice in the Justin Mitchum thread, now that new evidence has come to light (Justin & Bluerosies emails) that go straight to the heart of Felice's rotten character, have you changed your tune about Felice? Apparently, Lucille did the right thing and sent Little Dannio the message that he needs to stop soliciting others to bail him out and start speaking on his own behalve. Are you willing to abandon your stance that I, unlike your friend Felice, have no credibility and acknowledge the obvious fact that Felice is in fact a lying scammer as portrayed in the "extortion" thread? Or would you rather continue to align yourself , like neil Gubitz has, with someone who is "really no different than the burglar who breaks into your home and steals your property".
I ask this of you (Felice's enabler/defender) only because Felice will probably hide forever from this thread, and you, by your own choice (just like Neil Gubitz) chose to tell the world that your friend "Dannio" didn't do anything wrong. I think that potential customers (victims) of Felice, who read this thread, have every reason to want to know if YOU still endorse Felice the why you have throughout this thread. What say you Chris Raden?

[Chris Kennard]

http://indigosnakes.com/images/DO_TI1.jpg
This, as well as the link submitted in this thread of another cross produced by Felice...,
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=87642
....is from Felice's stock and has been viewed by many legitimate big guns in the herp industry (not the "core") who have identified it as the obvious cross that it is. You, Gila, are the ONLY person I know, as of yet, to endorse that as a real Texan, obviously to suit your own agenda....quotes by Chris Radon (Gila)....
Chris, I'm just curious if you've ever seen an erebennus from the southern part of their range? I really don't think you realize how variable they can be. I've seen them as dark as couperi and almost as light as melanurus. I've seen them salmon colored on their venter and I've seen them almost white underneath. Have you seen erebennus from Mexico?
It would appear that you are the only one who's "seen" so many different varieties. Aren't Erebennus from Mexico illegal?

I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this and that's ok ....but I really think you're wrong on this one.
Ditto! Then the Radon-dance ensues....
Would I buy them? Probably not because I prefer darker colored erebennus w/ salmon coloration underneath. I wouldn't have any concern of them being hybrids though, they're just kinda ugly IMO. That's like asking you if you'd buy an ugly boa....you probably wouldn't just because there are better looking ones available. I wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are.
If everyone in the industry shares you belief, then eventually no one will have pure Texans.

Anyway, I'll let you get back to your witchhunt Chris. I just thought I'd share some info in case anyone reading this was as unfamiliar with erebennus as you seem to be. Have fun.
I don't have any reason not to trust him except for allegations from you and Chris. Neither of you have supplied any proof of these allegations and that picture just doesn't look like a couperi / unicolor cross to me by any stretch of the imagination.
Perhaps now that Felice's "credibility" is no longer a factor, and mine remains clean, do you still dismiss the "allegations" and "trust him"? Funny, everyone else I've gotten feedback from (including acquaintances of yours) says that those pics look nothing like a pure Texan " by any stretch of the imagination".

If you were able to prove that Dan misrepresented hybrids I would have a different opinion of him but you haven't.
Would you have a different opinion of him if the Unis you bought from him turned out to be mutts???....Quote from Felice....
Posted by: Sighthunter at Mon Jan 23 17:54:05 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
Is there any locality data or origin history on any of the adult breeders floating around out there?

Posted by: dan felice at Mon Jan 23 18:01:35 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]
none that i know of bill, the people i got mine from didn't even know what they had really much less where they came from......

Just as I'm sure, as displayed in your own testimony here, you "wouldn't have any trouble representing those as erebennus though because that's exactly what they are", you will most likely be representing those Unis as pure?
What are your thoughts on Dixon's photo?

[Laura Fopiano]

We all know how you feel about Dan, however honey, you need to step away from the keyboard.............unless you're ready to start treading water my dear............you've stated your case...........please just let it go!!

[Chris Kennard]

I have stated my case, and apparently the truth hurts you as well as whoever you are speaking on behalf of. You are obviously miffed by my posts. Since you decided to weigh in, what is your opinion of the TOPIC that you are avoiding. Or would you rather just fess up as to why you wasted a post saying nothing? Do you think the pics represent pure Texas Indigos? Do you think Felice is a "good guy" based on Gila's testimony? If you say yes to either, that is why I am here. I am posting to ensure that the purpose of the BOI is not a failure with regard to this thread. Muddy the waters all you want. I am onto the tactics you and your posse have successfully pulled off in the other thread, you know, make it look like I'm off topic so Owens or whoever will suspend me again. So perhaps you could answer for Gila, or just go infect another thread where someone cares about your opinion, if you even have a valid one.

[Laura Fopiano]

I have stated my case, and apparently the truth hurts you as well as whoever you are speaking on behalf of. You are obviously miffed by my posts. Since you decided to weigh in, what is your opinion of the TOPIC that you are avoiding. Or would you rather just fess up as to why you wasted a post saying nothing? Do you think the pics represent pure Texas Indigos? Do you think Felice is a "good guy" based on Gila's testimony? If you say yes to either, that is why I am here. I am posting to ensure that the purpose of the BOI is not a failure with regard to this thread. Muddy the waters all you want. I am onto the tactics you and your posse have successfully pulled off in the other thread, you know, make it look like I'm off topic so Owens or whoever will suspend me again. So perhaps you could answer for Gila, or just go infect another thread where someone cares about your opinion, if you even have a valid one.

I'm not attacking or even trying to bait you at all, in fact I agree with you!! Misrepresenting animals and crossing species is a deplorable act!! I'm actually trying to lighten the mood..........I believe that we all spoke our minds in another forum, for I represent no one but myself and my own oppinion.

That being said, I've kept cribo's, indigo's, and now FWC's and the idea of not having pure blood lines makes me sick!! I will not sling insults at you, I have no reason too, I was only trying to gently say, enough is enough, we are relatively intelligent folks here, just let it go. Dan Felice is a pig, end of story!!

[Chris Kennard]

And point taken! Sorry for the abrasiveness. Perhaps Gila could save himself alot of time and just quote your last comment.