The dreaded IBD [Archive] - FaunaClassifieds

deborahbroadus

03-02-2012, 04:48 PM

Who did you send the request for a necropsy to?

IMO, from the research and reading about others' experiences...it seems that all you may be able to do in the meantime is keep them all clean, make sure their environments are humid with the appropriate temps, and keep them from shows, other friends' snakes and don't allow your friends to bring any of their snakes around until you get a clean bill of health.

Also, I would make a time line (gathering evidence) and try to pinpoint which snake brought it in and from whom it was purchased... just in case.

Hope it's a false alarm. Good luck.

salottimc

03-02-2012, 05:02 PM

What symptoms were you experiencing? I noticed in another post you mentioned having a spider ball. Was it displaying any neurological symptoms?

scratchypen

03-02-2012, 05:12 PM

RIs can have similar symptoms to IBD. Please list out symptoms that you noticed so that us fellow snake keepers can help out. :) With RIs running through collections right now I would not be surprised if that is the cause. I have ever only talked to one person who had IBD before and I have contact with lots of snakey individuals. :) That person ordered a big shipment of about 20 snakes (most likely w/c) and only ended up having one survive that I guess they rehomed (which as far as I know, once you have in your collection, there is no cure and you might as well cull all your animals)...what i have read anyways.

AbsoluteApril

03-02-2012, 05:15 PM

Necropsy will only show so much, tissues must be sent in for pathology testing, usually tissues from the lung, brain, liver, etc. Sometimes it will only show in one location and not all.

I really hope the OP does not have IBD as it's a very scary thing. If tests come back positive, euthanize the collection and have all equipment and caging destroyed. I sent the OP a PM as I know someone working on IBD research that is looking for specimens if it's positive.

I'm really sorry you've having to go through this Jami.

jamiryan365

03-02-2012, 05:36 PM

Well i really hope it is RI or something that is curable.
symptoms in all three were the same- refusal to eat. Couple regurged. loss of interest. loss of coordination. Couldnt turn over when i put them on their back. They never star gazed though. each of them would show slight symptoms for a few hours. be okay and normal for a while. then suddenly die.

EXAMPLE: i had suspected one of my females was infected. i checked on her this morning at 6 she was great and normal as ever. At 730 when i was leaving for work i checked on her again. she was laying funny. i picked her up, she lifted her head for a couple seconds then went limp and was dead. in my hands.

AbsoluteApril

03-02-2012, 05:43 PM

oh that is heartbreaking :( I'm so sorry

If you haven't already seen it, this is the current limited information available on IBD:
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-requirements/microbiology-parasitology-serology/zoo-med-infections/boid-ibd/

salottimc

03-02-2012, 05:48 PM

scratchypen

03-02-2012, 06:55 PM

It sounds like IBD to me. I am very sorry about your loss..and what you will now most likely have to face. I hope that the necropsy finds something different and that it will be treatable by antibiotics, but, that does not sound like an RI to me.

jamiryan365

03-02-2012, 08:31 PM

I do feed live. no these snakes didnt come from the same source.

Thank you everyone for all of your help i really appreciate. if there are any more ideas please post!!
Ill let yall know when i get results!

RobNJ

03-02-2012, 09:09 PM

This is just disturbing to hear...I'm really sorry you're going through this Jamie and could only imagine what it feels like. I really hope things turn out for the best. I really do appreciate you coming out so openly with it as well...even though you're not sure of anything yet, that takes a good amount of courage.

jamiryan365

03-02-2012, 09:19 PM

You guys are all so awesome. thank you for the support, it means so much!

GREGORY J HALL

03-02-2012, 09:57 PM

IBD is rare could be a zoonosis type bateria to get it you have to have mites or brought in a inbfected snakes or boas have any boas??? they carry the virus & can live with the virus Balls & other pythons die after being exposed,within a few days to week or so

jamiryan365

03-02-2012, 10:04 PM

No i have no boas. just the ball pythons. im just going to stay calm.until i get the results!!

GREGORY J HALL

03-02-2012, 10:13 PM

It just dont appear,they have to have been ifected recently,got mites? new snakes with no garenteen?

scratchypen

03-03-2012, 03:37 AM

Greg, To my knowledge, you can spread IBD just as easily as an RI if I remember correctly in info I read. Checking on her other posts, it looks as if she has gotten new snakes recently enough that this very well could be IBD. You dont NEED mites in order to transfer it. Getting mucus from an infected snake on your hands/clothes and then going and dealing with another snake I think transfers it just as easily if the info I have read in the past is correct.

salottimc

03-03-2012, 10:50 AM

I'm wondering if there is some sort of parasite or protozoan which may be causing a secondary bacteria infection. It's basically conjecture at this point. I just hope you are not dealing with IBD and your other snakes can be treated. We're these three snakes housed together at any point?

jamiryan365

03-03-2012, 11:00 AM

Yes they were :( but the other babies that were with them, are still doing great. no symptoms.

Araidia

03-03-2012, 11:44 AM

Were these three snakes from the same source? The reason I ask is because I am assuming they all passed away in a fairly short time frame. If they are from different places and all died fairly close to the same time as the others, you might be looking at something else.

This might not make any difference, but do you live feed? If so, do you house these mice/rats together?

Just curious, what would you have to worry about disease wise with this? Only thing i can think of is parasites?

I hope that the test comes back negative and everyone else will be ok. Just reminds me how important a strict quarantine is, even if the snakes come from a good place and seem healthy.

jamiryan365

03-03-2012, 03:29 PM

I couldnt agree more. from now on, if my collection pulls through, im setting up a new quarantine procedure. this is miserable to go through! Im so scared to walk into my snake room just because i dony want to see anymore dead!

salottimc

03-05-2012, 05:12 PM

I asked about live feeding because of parasites and protozoa. Both (especially the latter) can cause a whole array of problems, and both can lead to a bacterial infection that can kill a snake. There are so many types with different symptoms, that I cannot find information on the rarer ones.

Some of the information doesn't add up to IBD. These snakes were from different sources, but housed together with other snakes. If I am reading correctly, these three snakes all died around the same time. Other snakes that were housed with these snakes are doing fine. This leads me to believe that these three snakes were exposed to something around the same time that didn't necessarily affect all of them. Perhaps something from a food source. If these live feeders were housed together, it becomes more likely that multiple specimens could have been infected with these parasites or protozoans. These, would then, pass to the snakes through feeding. If one got sick with an RI or something else, the infected snakes would be more susceptible. Just a thought.

jamiryan365

03-05-2012, 06:12 PM

that would be something to think about except, although these were all "babies" they were not eating the same size rodents. i had one eating fuzzies, one on hoppers, and one on mice. the only feeders that came out of my private stock is were the mice. anything smaller came from the local store. the snake eating the mice died last. and they were only housed together for a short time, due to a few females becoming aggressive. then everyone was seperated and they all went back to normal attitudes. and all of the other snakes in my collection eat out of my rodent stock- and they are still alive and healthy.... for now....!
i appreciate the thought though. =)

MrBig

03-05-2012, 07:24 PM

Why are you housing so many together in the first place?

jamiryan365

03-06-2012, 12:10 AM

They just were. whether i shouldnt have or not, i did.
at this point im just trying to figure out what killed them.

Snake-Queen

03-06-2012, 01:15 AM

I feel for you. I had something wipe out my entire collection with the exception of my Macklot's pythons many years ago. I had a necropsy done on my male ball and all they could tell me for sure that it was not IBD or crypto. :( Vet said it was something akin to rabies and aids combined.

I do hope that whatever is wrong is curable.

scratchypen

03-06-2012, 04:22 AM

Ive had to deal with protozoans from feeders before. Killed 3 snakes if I remember correctly (it was years ago) and made another sick which wouldve died probably had I not used antibiotics. Jamis problem did not sound like the protozoan symptoms I experienced or I wouldve suggested the same. Of course, like micheal suggested, I guess there could be different ones which create different problems.

Focal

03-06-2012, 08:23 AM

Sorry to hear, but serves a good reminder to all that this is possible.

jamiryan365

03-06-2012, 01:41 PM

yeah, no telling what it is.

just going to have to wait for results and go from there!

Daily update though- no more dead, and none showing symptoms of illness!

salottimc

03-06-2012, 01:50 PM

That is very good news! Losing any pet is tough enough, but thinking the rest might succumb to this illness is absolute torture.

jamiryan365

03-08-2012, 02:57 PM

UPDATE**
still no dead snakes, still no results, and still no symptoms from the other snakes....

things are looking up??

salottimc

03-08-2012, 03:26 PM

When are you expecting the results?

jamiryan365

03-08-2012, 03:28 PM

she said 10-14 days and they were sent out on wednesday last week. just a few more grueling days!

SpitZu

03-17-2012, 02:40 AM

What's the word?

Pink Lady Exotics

03-17-2012, 03:28 AM

Have you seen any respiratory symptoms? Take a look at the thread that is linked in my signature. I've been through a situation like this with an unidentified Paramyxovirus and I'd be curious if it's in any way related.

Melissa, how long ago did you lose your collection? What were the symptoms?

jamiryan365

03-17-2012, 01:34 PM

Got results- NOT IBD. Intestinal bacterial infection that spread to the liver and kidneys.
any idea how that happens?

AGoodwin

03-17-2012, 01:39 PM

Great news! Not that theres an infection, but that its not IBD at least. Is it looking like the rest of your collection is going to be okay?

jamiryan365

03-17-2012, 01:42 PM

Everyone is still doing great. nothing abnormal! So i have hopes for the rest of em!

salottimc

03-17-2012, 01:45 PM

I still think a protozoan could have been the root cause that allowed the infections to take hold.

dumje

03-17-2012, 05:44 PM

Bacterial....were they exposed to a period of cold....dirty water....dirty cage?

jamiryan365

03-17-2012, 05:46 PM

No they werent. i did change water in my babies just to work on the factors. everyone else is still alive. im not sure. im going to get the report on monday and see more details

dumje

03-17-2012, 07:03 PM

it could of just been bad luck...dirty rats...the bacteria was in something...and they died from it unfortunatly

Snake-Queen

03-18-2012, 08:35 AM

Melissa, how long ago did you lose your collection? What were the symptoms?

Sorry for the delayed response, busy with shows and babies.

It has been about 5 years since I lost my collection.

The only ones that showed symptoms before dying were 2 ball pythons, the boas just died. :(
The balls wouldn't move & would flip over on their back. When they started this, it was a matter of days before they expired. I had my male ball euthanized because I couldn't watch him die like I did the female. A necropsy was done and samples sent to the University of Florida (I think so, if not, somewhere in FL)

This all happened because of improper quarantine (fairly new keepers of more than one species of snake).

jamiryan365

03-19-2012, 11:37 AM

i got the results report today. i am going to try to attach a copy of it for you guys to check out. i am not sure what any of it means!!!

salottimc

03-19-2012, 11:50 AM

It appears they died of a bacterial infection that spread to their organs. The root cause of their suppressed immune system was not listed, but it could have been stress. Some of the snakes might have been more stressed than others allowing this infection to take hold.

Pink Lady Exotics

03-20-2012, 01:26 PM

Sorry for the delayed response, busy with shows and babies.

It has been about 5 years since I lost my collection.

The only ones that showed symptoms before dying were 2 ball pythons, the boas just died. :(
The balls wouldn't move & would flip over on their back. When they started this, it was a matter of days before they expired. I had my male ball euthanized because I couldn't watch him die like I did the female. A necropsy was done and samples sent to the University of Florida (I think so, if not, somewhere in FL)

This all happened because of improper quarantine (fairly new keepers of more than one species of snake).

Sounds extremely familiar, right down to not being able to stand seeing them die. Did Dr. Jacobson at UF Veterinary School work on your necropsies?

Jami -- According to that necropsy report, your snake died of coccidia infection that necrotized (killed tissue) in the intestine and then spread the protozoa to the liver via blood circulation. Macrophages are members of the immune system that destroy invading cells and try to repair damaged cells, but they weren't in high enough numbers to halt the infection. Coccidia is nasty and is easily spread to other animals. I would highly recommend getting all of your snakes treated with a round of Albon in case it spread. Deaths from it are rare, and the female ball python that died sounds like she likely had a weakened immune system and/or injury in the intestine that allowed it to migrate. Many animals carry coccidia with little symptoms, especially snakes that don't defecate daily. Coccidia infects dogs, cats, ferrets, reptiles, etc. and is zoonotic -- meaning it also infects humans. Try to get some fecal samples from your snakes and have your vet test them for Coccidia. Same if you have any dogs/cats in the house. Luckily it's easily treated in the majority of cases so your collection should be just fine. :)

JordanAng420

03-20-2012, 10:47 PM

Jennifer,

I believe you're mixing up the intestinal parasite Coccidia and the type of bacteria called Coccobacillus. The snake didn't have Coccidia.

Here's what I got out of the report:

The report said that the snake most likely passed away from necrotizing enteritis, which is basically necrotic lesions in the intestine, caused by an overgrowth of bacteria, which I guess in this case are the Coccobacilli.

It also said the snake had mild hepatic lipidosis, and hepatic necrosis (fatty liver, and death of some parts of the liver), believed to be caused by bacteria from the intestine that "ascends" to the liver. The pathologist mentioned that a lot of snakes (in his experience) tend to have fat accumulation in the liver, which may or may not be significant in the final diagnosis.

Pink Lady Exotics

03-21-2012, 03:29 AM

Good catch. I did mix them up. Just finished Hematology and Parasitology this quarter, have Advanced Clinical Skills and Advanced Hematology the quarter after next. Sooooooo much info, too little grey matter space. :D

What is it that would cause fatty liver in snakes? Poorly fed feeder rodents resulting n high fat content? Just wondering if this is a chronic thing in captive snakes or all snakes. We're doing basic exotics and pocket pets this coming quarter so it might make a perfect topic for my paper.

Also, what is the risk of transmission to the OP's other snakes?

AGoodwin

03-21-2012, 03:37 AM

.....

What is it that would cause fatty liver in snakes? Poorly fed feeder rodents resulting n high fat content? Just wondering if this is a chronic thing in captive snakes or all snakes.......

I have read that over feeding can cause fatty liver disease in snakes.

R. Eventide

03-21-2012, 06:49 AM

I've seen hepatic lipidosis in leopard geckos that don't re-absorb follicles/eggs properly. I assume this is possible in snakes too...? Could that be an issue?

jamiryan365

03-21-2012, 09:56 AM

*sigh*
i very well could be quilty of over-feeding. if my babies eat and seem like they want more, i give it to them (i tend to feed smaller rodents than my snakes can handle, i hate seeing my babies struggle to get something down, so they get two if they want it)- they are all healthy body weights.

as far as my feeders go, they are on a high protein diet. top quality feed is all they get- healthy rats make for healthy snakes!

....except in this case i suppose lol!

JordanAng420

03-21-2012, 03:10 PM

FWIW...In my opinion, most reptiles in general have issues with hepatic lipidosis. A lot of the necropsies I have seen or assisted with, there have been issues with fatty liver. Unfortunately, I now work at a clinic that only sees cats and dogs, so it's been a little while since i've been involved with reptilian internal medicine, but I do know Mader has a good section on it in his Reptile Medicine book. I'll have to look it over at some point.

reticguy76

03-21-2012, 05:01 PM

ive been in the understanding that although fatty liver disease has been considered "common" in reptiles, particularly reptiles that that go days between feedings (ie, snakes), that the liver and other digestive organs have adapted to this over the years of their being around. everyday eating reptilel (ie, lizards, tortoises, etc) can be subjected to fatty liver disease if they are not eating when/how they are supposed to (excluding hibernation for those species).
in my experience in reptile/amphibian medicine, snakes generally do not get fatty liver disease unless they are predisposed to an underlying issue causing them not to eat, when their bodies need to. since hepatic lipidosis is the result of animals not eating regularly (as we see tons and tons of cats in emergency and internal medicine that get fatty liver as a result of an underlying issue causing them not to eat (ie, fiv, felv, infection, etc), the only way i can really see snakes getting fatty liver is if they have underlying issues and the snakes arent eating the way their bodies need and require them to.
keep in mind also, there is still a lot unknown about ibd. did it miss it, was the snakes organs actually submitted for ibd analysis ??

i have also heard of some lizards that have re-absorption of yolks leading to fatty live, i suppose that could be an issue in pythons and colubrids, however, not in this case as they are 2012 babies

jamiryan365

03-21-2012, 05:49 PM

ryan- you say it has to do with them not eating as they are supposed to- could that mean eating too much as well? because all three of these snakes were fantastic eaters. never had a problem with them refusing meals. so if it could mean over-eating, that very well could have been a helping factor. BUT- they were fed every four to five days.

i dont know. just throwing around ideas!

reticguy76

03-21-2012, 08:32 PM

fatty liver is the result of not eating normally or regulary, what your body requires

fatty liver disease is usually the result of an underlying disease causing the animal not to eat.

for example, its more prevelent in cats than dogs in small animals. usually because of an underlying disease or behavior issue, the animal stops eating, and stored fat from the peripheral areas of the body are sent to the live and stopped and stored there and the liver becomes "infected" with excess fat and then that continues the animal to not want to eat and its a downword spiral. animals that eat as infrequently as snakes, true hepatic lipidosis is unlikely here

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 08:22 AM

So is this the 'bacteria' that the report is talking about?

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 10:31 AM

well, i lost another snake last night. same exact way the others went. i got him out to feed, he was moving around and acting normal, i put him in the tub with a feeder, left him for about 30 mins with it, and he was dead when i came back.

this snake was especially devastating to lose, he was the first one i bought when i decided to start a collection. if anybody has any insight as to what is REALLY going on here, please let me know. or even if there is a way to save the others. i have TWO babies left out of everything i bought.

help :(

hhmoore

03-22-2012, 10:55 AM

I was about to respond, but I see that Dr Porcher is viewing this thread....no sense in me trying to deal with it, when the DVM is in :)

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 11:00 AM

Haha, well maybe he can provide some insight!

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 11:17 AM

what was the recommendation based on the pathology report of the other snakes that died ??

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 11:20 AM

also, i hate to sound morbid and all negative, but this may be a situation that either you need to find and treat aggressively, or let the rest of your collection go, and do a HUGE HUGE disinfection and just restart everything, with better and proper quarantine as you increase your collection.

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 11:27 AM

what was the recommendation based on the pathology report of the other snakes that died ??

what do you mean??

and as far as starting over- if i lose everything due to whatever is causing this, i dont think i am going to start over. ill start raising tadpoles or something instead -.-

cant stand seeing this happen!

but your right, and if i could find out HOW to treat it, or what to do to prevent spread, i would be doing it as we speak.

:shrug01:

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 11:30 AM

meaning, maybe i missed it, was it recommended to treat the remaining collection with antibiotics, or other type if treatment/therapy, given that all seem to have the same sypmtoms and death occurrance

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 11:32 AM

no, and the vet that i went through was not at all interested in answering any of my questions about it. i have a couple of friends that are taking copies of the report to their vets and such, to try to get a better understanding of the whole thing.

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 12:06 PM

good. is your vet a reptile and amphibian vet or small animal that will deal with exotics when needed ??

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 12:16 PM

small animal that will deal with exotics when needed. there are no reptile specialists in my area.

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 12:49 PM

ahhhh, that explains it. i have 3 excellent reptile/amphibian medicine vets, that only do exotics and one specializes in reptiles specifically.

i do relief work for them on occasion.

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 12:54 PM

yeahh, and the friends that are trying their vets, all have reptile specialists and what not. so we will see if we can get any better of an explanation from them

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 01:03 PM

good luck with everything. any further progress with the remaining snakes ??

jamiryan365

03-22-2012, 01:17 PM

well i thought that everything was going good, then my little guy up and died last night.. so im back to square one!

and now im questioning the accuracy of the necropsy report.

everyone is still seperated and what not. seems to be doing good, but apparently that means nothing in this case!!

reticguy76

03-22-2012, 01:41 PM

do you have an inkling as to which snake had this to start with and where it came from ??

what are the snakes living conditions (humidity, temps, type of cage, feeder source, etc) ??

Snake-Queen

03-24-2012, 02:13 AM

do you have an inkling as to which snake had this to start with and where it came from ??

Wouldn't the first one to die, be the one to suspect as the transmitter?

reticguy76

03-24-2012, 05:28 PM

not at all. the third one (lets say for instance) that was brought into the collection, could have been an asymptomatic carrier of whatever is actually is going on in that collection, and the first one that died could have had a congenital immune system defect (for example), which caused the signs and symptoms and then that one died.

all sorts of scenarios for how and why for the spread of contagious disease withing a colony of animals.

that being said, is the first one to die be the highest suspect, sure, but doesnt mean that its the culprit