Breeding female question

[skirtinthedirt]

Hey more experienced breeders than I,

I have a female that has 5 follicles I can easily palpate and who has been off feed since 12/18. I had to stop pairing her in early February because the male I had her with developed bacterial enteritis and had to be pulled from breeding. She's currently in quarantine.

My question is this: She herself has lost about 400g since her top weight of 1747g on 12/29. She's now down to 1325g. The follicles are getting larger and of course she is not interested in food, but this weight loss concerns me. Should I just let her do her thing, or is it time to think about tube feeding her? She doesn't look sick. If it wasn't for the weight loss I wouldn't be considering it but I have never had experience with a female developing follicles that loses that much weight while doing it (my 4 other breeding females are all gaining still). My vet is inclined have me start feeding her, but both he and I have done extensive research over the past few weeks and still can't come up with an answer as to whether this can be normal or not. Tube feeding her won't be easy as she is still really feisty, so I'd rather not unless it's necessary.

Please, if someone who has been breeding forever could tell me I'm worrying about nothing, that would be nice. I could care less about the clutch at this point, as long as she's healthy.....

[skirtinthedirt]

I should also mention her blood work, ultrasound, and fecal culture were all normal.

[Amelanistic Orca]

The weight loss screams Parasite Overload... Have you done a fecal exam on her lately?

[skirtinthedirt]

Yes, a couple of weeks ago along with the fecal culture. I've done probably 3 on her in the past 6 months (I'm a vet tech so can basically do unlimited fecals). She's never tested positive. I know that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't have something and we are missing it, so I'm next considering testing for crypto. I just don't want to stress her unnecessarily if females losing weight during breeding season happens and isn't a big deal.

Tom, you were the exact person I had in mind when I was hoping for responses. You tend to give really level-headed advice. Why-oh-why couldn't you have said that this is perfectly normal and I had nothing to worry about?????

[Amelanistic Orca]

I like the sound of all that... Big shout out for being 'connected'... AKA: Vet Tech. I got good news for you then... You're in luck!

You should be fine, but try all types of rodents to see if she is tired of one type of rodent, and will readily 'pop' a different kind. Ie; Gerbil, ASF, Field Mouse, Spiney Mouse etc etc. Go shopping on Craigslist! Lol. Just don't say why! Just promise you will give t a great home!

You definitely want them feeding until they stop, they're blown up, upside down and u comfy looking. Good luck! You have got to be in the 'safe zone' doing he feek exams. Good work on that again!

[Amelanistic Orca]

i5 sucks, grammar errors galore. Nite nite folks...

[mgoblue347]

[QUOTE=Go shopping on Craigslist! Lol. Just don't say why! Just promise you will give t a great home! [/QUOTE]

LOLOL

[snowgyre]

i5 sucks, grammar errors galore. Nite nite folks...

I'm disappointed that the autocorrect didn't give us any decent blackmail material. ;-)

I agree with everything that's been said. That weight loss is concerning. The most my females have lost from being off feed for four months, breeding, and ovulating has been 200 grams. My one female weighed 1543 grams on February 3rd and now weighs 1095 grams after laying four eggs (so a loss of 448 grams)! Good luck with her and keep us posted on her progress.

[Focal]

Was she lean before she was bred? Did she drop any deuces between 12/29 and now? When they go off feed, they clear everything out of them and can drop a couple hundred grams between feces and urates. Combined with a snake that is bred with little fat reserves and she could potentially lose something in that ballpark, but I guess that would be a best case scenario. Has she ovulated yet or how big are the follicles?

[snakesRkewl]

You say she's been off feed since 12/18, are you or have you been offering food to her since then?
It sounds like she's absorbing her follicles given the amount of weight loss.

[skirtinthedirt]

Thanks for the input so far guys. This is really stressing me out!
She hasn't defecated since early february. We had to do a cloacal wash to get the sample for culture. The follicles I do feel are definately getting larger. They are ping pong ball sized now. I feel like I'm feeling fewer than I did originally, but it is hard to say. I do know that she has passed some follicle tissue a few times with her urine. I have tried to get a sample for the lab but she tends to do it when I'm not around and by the time I see it it's all dry and smelly and no good for analysis. So I'm thinking she's absorbing the unfertilized follicles and maybe that's why she's losing weight? I had to pull her male quite earlybin the season and.didn't put her with anyone else so I was suprised to have developing follicles at all. I have experience with aborted follicles from patients at work so I'm 99% positive that is what she's doing. Little spongy bits surrounded by blood vessels. If it were her own tissue sloughing she would either be bleeding with the events or the tissue would be dead and therefore not have it's own blood supply and healthy appearance.

So far I have offered her rats and mice, both live and f/t. She has always.been a little bit of a picky eater, but this is ridiculous. I'm certainly willing to branch out to other food types. I'm thinking I will try some other prey items and if she still refuses and goes below 1300 grams I will have no choice but to force feed her. I don't want to but I'm feeling like I'm running out of options before this pregnancy puts her at risk.

I never thought I would say this but rescue work is so much easier!

[RoyalPythonPros]

I would try to find ASF's or maybe a gerbil. A little bit more expensive but it's worth the try to see if she'll take one of them.

[Shadera]

I wouldn't assist or force unless it's life or death. What's her body shape look like? If her spine isn't noticeably pronounced, I'd let her work this out on her own since you've had some testing done already. It isn't unusual for breeding females to go off feed this time of year, and she may not produce eggs at all if she doesn't have the fat reserves built up for her body to make them.

[john33]

If the follicles are that big she's soon to ovulate. She will lay eggs, slug out, or reabsorb, then she will feed. I'd put a male on her before i shoved anything down her throat.

[skirtinthedirt]

Agreed. I looked at her again today and decided that the 400g weight loss is just a number, and she actually looks pretty darn good. She's not getting a male, as she's in QT because her boyfriend was SO sick (which is mostly why I'm so concerned, but her tests are negative and she doesn't have raging diarrhea). I have started giving her fluids because she is urinating a ton and her last mini bloodwork showed mild dehydration and she looks a titch dry and though her kidney values are good her urates are a little "weak", but she's getting fluids via intracoelomic injection and barely notices those.

My boyfriend noted that she passed some more follicle tissue today. He cleaned it up before I saw so I dunno how much, but I swear tonight I could only feel 2 big follicles, when a few days ago I felt 5.

She's still as feisty as ever. I couldn't tube feed her by myself safely even if I wanted to, so if you veteran breeders aren't concerned with a 400g weight loss in an otherwise healthy female, neither am I.

I will let you know how she does. Fingers crossed.

[Focal]

Good luck. Hopefully that feisty attitude means she'll ovulate soon :)