A rather disturbing though

[LisaC]

I don't normally start threads, but I came across a rather disturbing discussion on another site. As we all know the price of leopard geckos has dropped drastically in the last few years. You can pretty much get them anywhere, and pretty much anyone can breed them. It was mentioned on this other site that, with prices dropping even lower than the $10-$20 range, for many other reptiles, leos will end up make good feeders. My heart sank just thinking about it. I have often shuttered at the thought of my pacman eating my leos with one big chomp. These cute friendly little creatures we have all come to love being sold as feeders, it makes me want to cry. I personally could never feed anything besides insects, but for those that do, would it really be any different than feeding (for example) pinkies? I know pinkies can often be nasty little buggers, but I'd imagine leos would be as well if their soul purpose was to be fed. They would never really interact with humans.

With this drop in price, it seems like leos have become very disposable to some. I don't know which is worse, being bred and sold as a feeder for $5 as opposed to being bred and sold to an uneducated kid with his lunch money.

It just makes me sad, disgusted, angry,... that so many people consider animals disposable. Did you know many animal shelters will sell dogs to labs for only $6? These animals (even once loved ones) live the rest of their life suffering. This is legal in many states even provinces. I really hate the world right now. I would rather die from AIDS, cancer… then have a poor, helpless, abandoned animal tortured until its miserable death (which is usually caused by all of the testing). Not to mention the labs that test completely unnecessary things like make-up, skin cream… Sorry to get off topic, I just needed to vent.

Lisa

[mizar66]

I dont like the idea of leo's for feeder but at least it's "natural"...it's the natural food chain. I prefer to know that a leo is sold for a feeder than to a kid that have no idea of their need. I too often see friends of my kids showing me their diyng lizards asking whats wrong , when they just have no idea of their needs. Feeder leo, at least its a swift death....

[Manhattan Herps]

i dont know what i'd do if i ever saw leos being sold as feeders..all i know is that petstore would stop selling them in a mater of days, if i alone can shut a whole petstore down for selling sick snakes..imagine what i could do MUAHAHHA...LOL
..but it seems leos are getting more popular every year, i know a few people who keep hots(venomous snakes) and feed some of them anoles, i like anoles and think it's horrible that they're sold as feeders for some people, i've asked them more than once if they'd ever feed baby leos to they're snakes and they say " not a chance", honestly i dont think leos will ever become feeders unless someone hatches out a deformed leo and has to euthanize it, they dont want to waste it so they feed them to their larger geckos snakes etc...i know robin does this,

anyways, with all the people that actually know how to care for them and give them good lives like us i seriously doubt they'll ever become feeder lizards, gotta remember..leos are not anoles :P

[Snarks]

she does have a heart of gold doens't she :D

That is sad though, whats the comparative price of rats to leos?

I don't have anything that would come near to eating rats so i have no idea. As long as that rats stay cheaper the leos will be safe... for a while...

[Manhattan Herps]

Originally posted by Snarks


That is sad though, whats the comparative price of rats to leos?
[/B]

rats cost about 3-5$ leos here are 30$ still a big difference but the pricees have dropped

[LisaC]

Mizar, I agree with you, at least it would be a quick death.

Dan, I'm blushing again, I don't normally blush but I did yesterday as well. Thank you, but if you all knew me other than my love for animals, you'd probably just think I'm crazy :). I love all animals so much, but when it comes to the human race I really think the world could do without it. I know were not all bad, but there are enough bad ones to ruin the world. Wow, I can't belive I just said that, opps.

Hey Dan, I know leos average about $30, but we've all seen the bulk leos for sale on the internet that end up being $7 each :(.

Great it's hailing millions of golfballs and my mutts are on a walk with my boyfriend.

Thanks for all of your replies,
Lisa

[robin d.]

unfortunatly, if the market becomes too saturated leos might be sold as feeders (if they already arent being)..... like you said there are lots sold by wholesalers for very cheap prices and i would imagine the animals that arent being sold have a good chance at being feeders for some animals........
i know alot of other breeders, like me, whom only feed deformed babies off to lizard eaters but this is not a very common occurance. the animals being fed these are insectivorious and herpbovours and will only eat an occasional lizard (nutritionally they do not need it), but when i hatch out a deformed leo that naturally would be part of the animals diet... i do sacrifice it (only had to do it twice).

do you also realize that out of the thousands of ball pythons imported every year many are sold off as feeders for snakes that eat other snakes like the king cobra and also corn snakes are sold in lots as feeders... it would not suprise me at all if the market becomes too saturated leos being offered up for feeders .... with alot of these people it just comes down to dollars and cents... or to say it better the "almighty dollar"

[Seamus Haley]

Why exactly is this an unfortunate thing?

A cheap, readily avaliable source of captive bred parasite free (or low levels of the really nasty stuff) feeder lizards?! Sign me up, I want a box of four hundred here tomorrow morning.

Do your geckos eat crickets?

Are crickets alive?

Are crickets animals?

Do some snakes and larger predator lizards instinctively go after lizard prey? Have many of these evolved to utilize the nutritional contents of lizards and does a steady diet of rodents cause health problems?

This is an all or nothing subject...

Either there's nothing whatsoever wrong with using an animal to feed another animal- you can give mice, rats, crickets, roaches, mealworms, leopard geckos, quail and anything else to whatever needs to eat... This also means you can continue wearing leather shoes and enjoying hamburgers...

Or it's unacceptable on an ethical level to feed any animal to any other and I'm going to found the "Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Insects" and take your precious little geckos away from you, after all you can't keep them fed and healthy without prey items.

To the original poster... I have four words to describe your post-

Pure... sentimental... anthropomorphic... CRAP.

What's worse is that you were hypocritical in your application of it. Just because you happen to *like* a species as a pet doesn't somehow make it more worthwhile as a living entity or exempt from (captive) predation.

[riverjop]

They would most likley have to be Adult Leo's as I doubt that leo's will get as low as house geckos & anoles wich sell for about $2.50 each! And I don't think it would be "profitable" to raise them up to adults to be sold as feeders!.....Ahhh but you never know?

I would rather die from AIDS, cancer… then have a poor, helpless, abandoned animal tortured until its miserable death
And Lisa I comind you on your feelings about animals, BUT!...I think that your statement on animals used for medical purposes is way off track. I don't appreciate you saying that my sister should have died because she had cancer, or that both my mother & my Father in law should have died because we "wouldnt" learn more about these things with out the use of animals!

My sister and both inlaws are all in remission now and Im sure if we would have (years ago) decided not to "learn" what causes these and other medical problems they would all be dead right now!!!...and just the thought of that statement you said PISSES THE HELL OUT OF ME!
It's ignorant and short sighted!

Just remember there are many people that YOU know, right now! that probably would not be here now, if it weren't for the medical breakthroughs that have been made in the last fifty years alone!

And obviously you have never known someone who was suffering from Aids or Cancer!
Lastly, be very careful what you wish for in your life, to die from aids is a living hell, and you never know what dreams may come true for you!!!

[riverjop]

Also Lisa!
don't let me (or anyone else) dissuade you from adding posts here on fauna, discussion of any type is always interesting and informative. And any thing I write, or anyone else write's is only there opinion. Im glad you posted this "thought" and I didn't want to scare you off!
have a great day!

[LisaC]

First off, I in no way meant to offend anyone, I am very sorry that I did.


Seamus to answer your questions,

“Do your geckos eat crickets?”

Yes

”Are crickets alive?”

Yes

”Are cricket’s animals?”

Yes

“What's worse is that you were hypocritical in your application of it.”

This was my main point of the Thread. “Would it really be any different than feeding (for example) pinkies?” I suppose crickets could be used in place of pinkies.

You do have a point when saying this, “just because you happen to *like* a species as a pet doesn't somehow make it more worthwhile as a living entity or exempt from (captive) predation.” I am very guilty of this. I *personally* consider insects different than reptiles, I place them below reptiles in fact. I never said I was perfect.

“This also means you can continue wearing leather shoes and enjoying hamburgers...”

Again, something I have been guilty of in the past. I recently gave up meat all together; however, I still eat fish, drink milk and eat eggs. It’s a matter of what’s ethical for me. My reasons for this are, I figure if I can’t kill it, I won’t eat it.

“Or it's unacceptable on an ethical level to feed any animal to any other and I'm going to found the "Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Insects" and take your precious little geckos away from you, after all you can't keep them fed and healthy without prey items.”

I never said I disagree with feeding animals to other animals. In fact I don’t even disagree with the rest of the world eating meat.

Anthropomorphic, I like it. I haven’t learned a new word in a long time, thanks :)


Riverjop, I am sorry that you took my post the wrong way.

“I think that your statement on animals used for medical purposes is way off track.”

I respect you opinion.

“I don't appreciate you saying that my sister should have died because she had cancer, or that both my mother & my Father in law should have died because we "wouldn’t" learn more about these things with out the use of animals!”

I said *I* would rather die from AIDS, cancer… then have a poor, helpless, abandoned animal tortured until its miserable death. I never mentioned anything about the rest of the world. I also recognize the amazing achievements that have come from animal testing in the past. With all of the technology we have now is there really much need left for animal testing? Many believe there isn’t.

Think about it this way, do you really want to cure all the diseases in the world? I sure as hell hope it never happens. If it does happen, *I* don’t think the world will last very long. Look at what we’ve already done to it. There sure isn’t much left of our rainforests. I haven’t heard of the effects we have had on the ozone layer lately, but I would imagine it’s not looking as good as it once was. Humans are the world’s largest predator. We are like a plague.

“Just remember there are many people that YOU know, right now! That probably would not be here now, if it weren't for the medical breakthroughs that have been made in the last fifty years alone!”

I do realize this. Most of my family wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for these medical breakthroughs.

“And obviously you have never known someone who was suffering from Aids or Cancer!”

Have I known someone personally who was suffering from AIDS? No. Have I met someone who was suffering from AIDS, heard their story, and seen the pain in their eyes? Yes.

Have I been touched close to home by cancer? Yes… a few times. Cancer is very prevalent in my family. For example, my mother came inches from dying from it.

“Lastly, be very careful what you wish for in your life, to die from aids is a living hell, and you never know what dreams may come true for you!!!”

I do realize this. I can’t even being to imagine how terrible it would be to suffer with AIDS. However, here in North America it is nowhere near as terrible to suffer from AIDS as in some other places. There are 40 million people suffering from AIDS/HIV world wide. Did you know 30 million of those are in Africa, most with absolutely no treatment at all? Why should our life expectancy be around 70 (a guess), while the life expectancy in Africa is only 38?

Call me ignorant, tell me this is “CRAP”, these are just my own thoughts and opinion. Seamus, I apologize as I have probably been hypocritical again. I can’t help it, like I said, I’m crazy :crazy03:

“Also Lisa! don't let me (or anyone else) dissuade you from adding posts here on fauna,”

You didn’t :)

“discussion of any type is always interesting and informative.”

I agree.

“And any thing I write, or anyone else write's is only there opinion.”

I as well

“Im glad you posted this "thought" and I didn't want to scare you off!

"have a great day!”

Thank you, you have a good day as well.


P.S. sorry for quoting you both so much. Also, sorry for the lengthy reply.

Lisa

[robin d.]

all i want is a thick new york strip............

[LisaC]

Aw don't, steak was my favorite food.

[lostkauze]

Robin, I think you should order two steaks. You gotta put some meat on those skinny cowboy body you;ve got. --check your email.

Michael

[riverjop]

Ya know, I think that having a opinion is what makes this "free" world great. It's when peoples opinions turn into "causes" and there causes turn into "laws" which affect the way My family & I live, thats what irks me. I know there are people out their that eat only this or that, or think that we should treat all animals like India s Cows and I don't give a rats ass, let them! It just makes me angry when they "push" it on other people! I'm not saying you are (Lisa), I'm saying live your life to what ever you think is the fullest! Don't expect everyone else to follow you!

About 15 years ago I found out how we get VEAL, and I truly don't approve! So I have my own little "protest" and I've never knowingly ordered or eaten VEAL! Thats just me, but I would never impose my beliefs onto someone else, hell!!! people order VEAL around me all the time!.....and they have no idea about my little "cause".

Look!.... I lost my Father a few years back, he was in his mid-seventy's when they found out his heart was failing. He had a triple bypass and a "PIGS" valve put in him. He ended up living another eight years................... I would trade anything I have, drop anything I'm doing just to have another day with him! Those "extra" years made a huge difference in my whole family's life .

I think that, No we will never "cure all the diseases in the world". Diseases and Virus's are always changing developing and mutating. But there is so much to be learned about all the things in life! To say "let stop now" would be foolish and extremely short sighted. Some day a new Disease or virus may appear and it might be your kids or grandkids lying there on that table looking up at you!!!!
Could you look them in the eye and say, sorry!....back in 2004 Me and a group of people banned certain medical procedures......and .....well....they stopped research on this Disease, but hey!....Reasus monkeys are sure making a comeback in the wild!
Think about it!

[robin d.]

personally i think veal tatse gross however russell thinks its mighty tasty... he says veal, leg of lamb, rack of lamb, lamb chops, veal scallopini and veal marsala... he says "iy all good"

do you know what "barabacoa" is? or sweetbreads or tripe?

only thing i cant eat meat wise because of what it is (rather than taste) is tounge... my neighbirs used to eat tounge samiches YUCK

[josh06]

my neighbirs used to eat tounge samiches

Robin, are you sure that wasn't just code for something????:p

[riverjop]

ROBIN!.....your gonna get it! :hot:

Now where the heck did I put that gecko?
Barney's hungrey!


Now which one do you think is Barney?

[robin d.]

josh,
Robin, are you sure that wasn't just code for something????

thats just sick.......




watch it or ill sick my fat tabby on you overton... you know she is so large when sits around the house she SIT AROUND the house.... she even has her own gravitational pull.... other cats and dogs and objects...... gravitate around her in some sorta orbit

[riverjop]

Dang!....girl!!! you are talkin in some sorta code?:alien:

[Glenn Bartley]

Somebody mention veal, just had it tonight. It was the first time in years that my wife had decided to cook it, and I had to describe to my son at the dinner table how they get veal to be veal. I think my wife won't be cooking it again for another few years. Darn, me and my big mouth! Now if only I could get her to cook up some turtle soup (Snapper soup is wonderful) or maybe some frogs legs that would be wonderful. Heck my mouth is watering.

And now back to the original point, more or less:
I love all animals so much, but when it comes to the human race I really think the world could do without it. I know were not all bad, but there are enough bad ones to ruin the world. Wow, I can't belive I just said that, opps.
Come now are you for real? Please don't ever get a job in our military with an attitude like that, I can just imagine the whole scenario of Dr. Strangelove coming true!

You know as to the whole thing about someone believing it is bad to be using animals for medical research, isn't it funny that PETA is opposed to such? I say isn't it funny because the a founder of PETA (I believe the current president) reportedly uses a drug made from animal products for a medical condition according to a recent report I saw on the tube. She also reportedly is totally against any type of medical research using animals, but takes her medication, made from animals, on a daily basis.

Now more to the point of the original post: I have to agree with almost all of what Seamus said about feeders. As it is now though I would use whatever it took to feed a herp I chose to keep. I have no qualms with feeding them other herps if need be. Heck as seen above I have no qualms eatting most of these things myself. About the only time I ever fed an animal to one of my herps that I should not have fed to them was when our pet Zebra Finch of many years (about 7 or 8 years old, maybe even 9 or 10 he was old) died of old age. The Gopher Snake loved it. When everyone asked where the finch was, well maybe I at least should not have admitted that I decided not to let him go to waste.


All the best,
Glenn B

[LisaC]

Riverjop I have never heard of animal parts being used in humans, that's pretty amazing.

"Diseases and Virus's are always changing developing and mutating."

You are definately right on this one.

"But there is so much to be learned about all the things in life! To say "let stop now" would be foolish and extremely short sighted."

I didn't say I want us to stop, only that many people believe, with all of the technology we have available today, there is no use for animal testing anymore.

Veal was actually my first favorite food untill I found out where it came from. Absolutely disgusting I think. I have heard of a couple of different ways they get it so tender. One way is by keeping the calf in a box, never alowing it to move so it never develops any muscle. Another way is by keeping a calf strung up in the air, although I don't understand how it would be able to live very long like this. Are these the ways you all know of as well?

"Come now are you for real? Please don't ever get a job in our military with an attitude like that, I can just imagine the whole scenario of Dr. Strangelove coming true!"

Yes and no Glenn. In any case don't even get me started on the military and war. I wish guns had never been invented. Dr. Strangelove? I've never heard of him.

That is pretty funny about PETAs president. I do support PETA to a point, but even I think they sometimes go a bit to far.

Wow, did this thread get a bit off topic or what? Sorry,

Lisa

[mizar66]

I work in the medical field. And i can tell you that a lot less testing on animal is done these years than in the past. It now exist software that can reproduce these testing at a lower cost. There is still some testing done. The industry that do the most testing is the cosmetic one...just check how they do most and you'll never wear make up again...(maybe i shouldnt say this,lol).

I work in a pathology lab, doing macroscopy and autopsy, so i wont start on the meat subject....lol.

[Mayo]

Really what is the difference than feeding insects, some people keep them as pets. Or feeding rabbits, rats, mice, pigs, goats etc. I feed anoles and worms to my fish. You are looking at a perspective because you keep leopards...as I do. But in all actuality there is no difference than any other feeder animal. You are simply biased in their favor. Back away and see there is no difference. In Hawaii it was no uncommon to feed baby Jackson Chams to my adults.

Matt

[riverjop]

I agree!!!.....but YIKES! send me your baby jacksons I'll trade you anoles or something! LOL

[LisaC]

Mizar, that is reassuring to hear. The cosmetic industry is pretty discussing.

Mayo, I agree as well, yes I am biased in their favor.

I'm going to go throw out all of my old make-up now. Have a good day all :)

Lisa

[ShannanD25]

I tried being a veggitarian but it lasted a day.....I accepted the fact that god, or the goddess, or space aliens, or whoever, gave me pointy fang teeth for a reason....to rip into steaks....

Here is my thoughts on animal testing in labs....
Why not take death row convicts, rapists, pedifiles, and everyother lowlife, and test on them. Then we would truly know what effects it has on a human.....

And while it saddens me to think that Leos could be used as feeders one day I accept the food chain. After all I dangle pinkies in front of them and have no problem gutting wax worms for picky eaters....I have two wonderful siamese rats yet have no problem when my sister and her husband tell me about feeding rats to their huge 7ft snake (have no idea what it is not a snake person)....

I think that if I had a larger lizard that ate other lizards and had a deformed hatchling I would use it as lunch. It would be hard to do but it is as it would be in nature. Of course I say that now...I'd probably actually be found in a corner bawling and holding it muttering how unfair life can be:) I can be such a sap.

Take care all!

Shannan

[robin d.]

my large constrictors love bunnies!!

[LisaC]

"Here is my thoughts on animal testing in labs....
Why not take death row convicts, rapists, pedifiles, and everyother lowlife, and test on them. Then we would truly know what effects it has on a human....."

Sounds good to me. Lol, I sure wouldn't mind testing out cosmetics on the real dirt bags of this world.

[riverjop]

Robin?........wanna feed'em my kitty?

[robin d.]

no, cuz i like cats

[riverjop]

Meeoooow

made ya look!

[Glenn Bartley]

Here is my thoughts on animal testing in labs....
Why not take death row convicts, rapists, pedifiles, and everyother lowlife, and test on them. Then we would truly know what effects it has on a human......... Not a bad idea but impractical because it would take up to 50 years or more for the results. A mouse's life cysle is over within about 2 years at most, much quicker results.

[riverjop]

Yea but wouldn't that clean up the streets?

The Daily Crimminal Post
The word on the street today is [I think there working on a new sterilization this week] guess what thier cuttin off?

[mizar66]

Using criminal...not a so good idea...i work in a hosptal lab and in the last few years, i've been punched , kick, bite and scatch...and they werent criminal...makes me wonder what it will be like WITH criminal !