Customer service

[Randy F]

So I bought a snake from another vendor at a show as a orange dream pin female. I ended up deciding that I would put it in a open display at a show and if it sold it sold. Well it did sell for $500. A month goes by and I get a call from the buyer who says a couple people told him that its a desert enchi pin. After a little research I find out he is right. We had a little heated discussion because of mention of ruining my reputation before I even told him what I was going to. Ultimately I bought it back, drove over an hour to him because he did nothing wrong, I gave him a 700-800g Fire yb female for free because of the mix up. The guy I bought it from is buying her back for what I paid. I believe that is a stand up way of doing business.

Now anyone that's been on here for awhile knows I like getting everyone to talk and give opinions. Take either side in this one and give your input, or both.

I have a snake listed let's say a orange dream clown. You contact me and decide you want it to replace your clown.....males. I sell it to you for $1500. You get it and it looks brighter than clowns so you sell yours and prepar to breed him that season. You breed him and produce no orange dreams. You contact me, we discuss that it was sold to me as that and that the guy you got it from says that's what it is. After a little more talking you agree to try one more season. Fast forward a year and you breed it and again no orange dreams. You contact me and I say I will get ahold of the guy I got it from but I will make it right.

Now what is right? Do I give you your money back? Do I give you credit for the amount on other snakes I have? Do you ship the snake back, or keep because of the problems? Do you expect something for the lost clutches? What makes this right and fair? What's expecting too much or what's doing too little? Do we handle it first hand, or wait for the other guy?

Speak up people, this helps people understand each other and how to solve sitsuations before they happen. I know after my mix up, I look at what I sell way differently. If there is any doubt it is sold as not having that gene and being a possible. Anytime There is a 4 or greater gene animal where it looks like it is there, the gene in question is "presumed" due to visual differences on examples where it is not present. This was weird to me when I bought a multigene snake four or five years ago and was told a gene was presumed. It ended up being there, and now I understand why it's done that way.

[Lucille]

Do we handle it first hand, or wait for the other guy?


If you sold a critter as an orange dream clown, you are warranting that is what it is, if it is not, you must take care of the situation with your buyer, and then if you want you can go after the person that sold the snake to you.
Your buyer, in my opinion, may ask at the very least for the difference in value of what he has, and what he would have had if the snake was really an orange dream clown, and for a measure of lost profits.
However, since I am not acquainted with the genetics of orange dreams, is there any substantial possibility that your customer 's snake is what you sold it as, and he is simply the victim of bad luck?

[Pasodama]

In your actual transaction, I think you more than made up for the error.:thumbsup:
....

In the example you give, there is always the chance that the buyer simply had terrible luck, at hitting the odds, but I would go ahead and treat it as the buyer not getting what he/she paid for.

The seller needs to make things right, with the buyer, first. It also needs to be made right, with the buyer, regardless of whether, or not, the person, who sold you (the seller) the misidentified snake, makes things right with you.
After (or even during) taking care of the buyer, you (the seller) can contact the person, who sold you the misidentified snake, to seek remedy for yourself.
These are two separate transactions where one does not affect the other.

Personally, I wouldn't go too overboard. At the least end, the buyer should be made "whole", from time of sale/purchase, by giving a full refund and getting the snake back.
Other options could be a refund of price difference (between what the snake is vs. what it was supposed to be) if buyer wishes to keep the snake, or giving the buyer a snake of higher value in exchange for the return of the snake, or giving another snake (free of charge) while allowing the buyer to keep the snake he/she purchased (should he/she wish to keep it), or some other recompense. Perhaps do as you did, with the actual transaction that you had with the person who purchased what you thought to be an Orange Dream Pin, by giving a refund and a gift snake in exchange for the return of the snake originally purchased (the gift snake, of course, for the buyer's troubles).
Give some options and allow the buyer to choose which offer, at making things right, he/she prefers.

I wouldn't worry about any offspring that the buyer produced with the snake purchased from you (the seller). This is because, regardless of what was produced, the offspring would have some sort of monetary value on top of having been made "whole", on original transaction, by you. Plus, the buyer agreed to try one more breeding.

[CwnAnnwn]

I agree with the above. You where fair in this case. But...

You need to tell them that you did not produce the animal. That you bought the animal as X and trust that person. I know that makes selling it harder, but it is good to warn the customer.

The customer, when they figure out it is not what it was sold as, will figure you where taken too. It would help defuse anger later.

But I know that a lot of dealers will not tell you resold animals unless you force it out of them.

[Randy F]

In the example you give, there is always the chance that the buyer simply had terrible luck, at hitting the odds, but I would go ahead and treat it as the buyer not getting what he/she paid for.



so in this case I used orange dream because not dealing with this gene I missed it in my mix up, so someone else could too. so in any dom/codom case, what is bad odds? in het to het it is possible to miss in a 8 egg clutch, but in a visual to het or dom/codom? breed a pastel to a normal and get 8 normals? a buddy bought a pinstripe het vpi axanthic and asked if I would breed it to one of my visual vpi axanthic spiders....9 eggs (4 spinners, 2 spiders, 1 pinstripe, 2 het vpi axanthics). bad odds....9 eggs that 5 times the female passed pinstripe but not 1 axanthic? Possible? Mix ups/sexed wrong happen but at what point do you call it "your bad?"

[Dbz4246]

Personally I'd just say screw it, and really can't blame anyone when something doesnt prove. Snakes move hands and breeders so often it's hard to put blame on any one person in my opinion. Unless you believe that person was purposely trying to swindle you. When it comes to multigene animals and hets, it's always a gamble.

[Randy F]

Ok first you know I like you Jessie:D

So by what I am reading it clears a lot up for me. I have a bunch of super pastel butter het ghosts, super pastel lessers, goldblush mojaves, and such but have not wanted to pair them with my 4 gene males because if I make a bel I don't know what's in it. So your saying it's cool if I breed one and sell you a pastel lesser butter enchi pin calico female and in a few years you breed it and it's a lesser butter only?

I think with as many people will try and sell their animals as hets knowing they aren't even 50% hets, there has to be some accountability. If not I have a bunch of snakes that are het pied, het clown, het vpi axanthic, het albino, het puzzle, het desert ghost because I threw all my snakes in one big orgy and I assume they are good so start bidding at $40,000 for pastel oh (octohets, some are mean so they are het for hermaphrodite so they can go f**k themselves:D). Now where everyone is hopefully laughing, it is still serious because without accountability and standards you will get a boi with a bunch of angry people......crap too late!

[Dbz4246]

Lol I see what your saying Randy.
BUT I still think your accountable for your own purchase, if you don't do the research on the morph, or have any doubts then ask questions. If I dont know a gene (lots of one's I haven't heard of are popping up lately) then I usually ask a good amount of questions if I'm interested, but that's usually me. But if you buy a Het, there is always a chance that a mix up could have happened, or someone somewhere was lying about the exact genetics. But personally I think, maybe, I can tell the difference between a pastel butter and a pastel butter calico vector nanny clown camel toe ball python, just saiyan lol
All in good fun Randy lol. But I can say, how you ended up handling the situation, was fantastic

[Randy F]

no man, this isn't my situation....that's handled. I am using orange dream because I goofed on that. I always use me because no one can get hurt feelings if I use someone that could be assumed is them.

ok new snake that will make it a bit easier.......a orange dream axanthic. Since there is no yellow pigment all you can do is take the sellers word....now you have made zero orange dreams when bred to spiders. it is obvious when a spider is a orange dream spider but you make none.

[bcr229]

I have a bunch of super pastel butter het ghosts, super pastel lessers, goldblush mojaves, and such but have not wanted to pair them with my 4 gene males because if I make a bel I don't know what's in it. So your saying it's cool if I breed one and sell you a pastel lesser butter enchi pin calico female and in a few years you breed it and it's a lesser butter only?
No, you sell it as a BEL but let the buyer know that it could possibly have the other genes in it. A friend of mine had a BEL from a lesser x pastave pairing, he called it a BEL possible pastel since he couldn't tell if it had pastel or not.

[Randy F]

No, you sell it as a BEL but let the buyer know that it could possibly have the other genes in it. A friend of mine had a BEL from a lesser x pastave pairing, he called it a BEL possible pastel since he couldn't tell if it had pastel or not.

Exactly. I had one that was listed as a black eye Lucy possible cinnamon at the asking price of regular super fires. If you can't tell then it's sold as not being there. If you buy it as a possible and it doesn't have it then that's your bad. But I said it IS a orange dream axanthic (or camel toe if Jessie prefers). I tell you when you first contact me saying when you bred it the gene wasn't there. I tell you the guy I bought it from said "there's no way it's not." Now what?

[Dbz4246]

Dang it with all these morality issues lol. Alright, I would be able to do what I can if that happened to me. If I was contacted about a snake that didn't prove, I honestly couldn't make up for the years of raising that snake, the possibility of what babies could have been made, what money was lost or what may be lost. I couldn't make up for that, it's really hard to say exactly how you could. But, personally, I would try to offer the buyer 1 or 2 babies to help with the loss, but I probably couldn't do much more than that, except saying I'm extremely sorry and it was not intentional.

[Pasodama]

so in this case I used orange dream because not dealing with this gene I missed it in my mix up, so someone else could too. so in any dom/codom case, what is bad odds? in het to het it is possible to miss in a 8 egg clutch, but in a visual to het or dom/codom? breed a pastel to a normal and get 8 normals? a buddy bought a pinstripe het vpi axanthic and asked if I would breed it to one of my visual vpi axanthic spiders....9 eggs (4 spinners, 2 spiders, 1 pinstripe, 2 het vpi axanthics). bad odds....9 eggs that 5 times the female passed pinstripe but not 1 axanthic? Possible? Mix ups/sexed wrong happen but at what point do you call it "your bad?"

I wouldn't consider it "my bad" on a first breeding/clutch. Bad odds can, and do, happen. I know of cases, and did have one case myself, where a het did not prove out in a cornsnake clutch. Cornsnakes lay quite a few more eggs than balls. These snakes went on to prove out the het with a clutch in the following year (with one case not proving out until a 3rd clutch!).
This has more of a chance, of occurring, when breeding het to het, but can occur, with less frequency, when het to visual.
This can occur with dom & co-dom as well.

Problem is that there has to be a cut off point. For me, I would consider it "my bad" if the gene does not prove out in a second clutch. Whether that truly is the case or not.

....

[nickolasanastasiou]

I wouldn't consider it "my bad" on a first breeding/clutch. Bad odds can, and do, happen. I know of cases, and did have one case myself, where a het did not prove out in a cornsnake clutch. Cornsnakes lay quite a few more eggs than balls. These snakes went on to prove out the het with a clutch in the following year (with one case not proving out until a 3rd clutch!).
This has more of a chance, of occurring, when breeding het to het, but can occur, with less frequency, when het to visual.
This can occur with dom & co-dom as well.

Problem is that there has to be a cut off point. For me, I would consider it "my bad" if the gene does not prove out in a second clutch. Whether that truly is the case or not.

....

It is very frustrating when people who decide to work with hets do not take the time to understand this and feel they are owed an immediate winning ticket.

It is very gratifying when people who decide to work with hets do take the time to understand.

[Randy F]

ok so in this case the recessive was a visual and the gene in question was a dom/codom. This should be a 50/50 as would be the het recessive to a visual. So at what point do you say its not there in either case?

me personally I would say if it is a dom/codom second clutch I am refunding. If it is a het to visual, same thing. If it is a het to het, second clutch I ask to breed it to a visual. If to a visual it does not produce, I buy it back. Even if I produced it from one of my visuals and know it to be het, I sell it off as a proven normal and explain the circumstances. I look at the whole transaction from day 1 and decide what to do about their lost time in growing it up. If I have a proven like animal, its theirs. I cannot offer anything on lost clutches because results are unknown and they sold off whatever they produced.

I once bought a snake from Michael Steiner back 10 years ago or so. He talked to me one day and asked how it was doing. When I told him how big it was, he told me he was replacing it for another because it should have been way bigger. I had a guy who shipped me a super pastel female and it died in shipping because he put the heating pack right on top of the delicup and cooked it. He could have refunded my money....he paid shipping and gave me his holdback. Customer service is critical and I hold those instances in mind when I have sitsuations.

[nickolasanastasiou]

It is not the number of clutches for me, but the number of eggs that result in hatchlings where I make my call. Since I have had a series of ten hatchlings going all one way (heterozygous hatchlings) or all another (homozygous) from different homozygous X heterozygous breedings, I typically call it for my personal decisions at ~20 consecutive hatchlings with no visuals as long as paternity is assured. Our personal lines will be drawn at different points as different keepers.

There are also points at which I will never concede to drawing any line. If a homozygous female gives rise to a heterozygous hatchling, it does not matter if that hatchling goes on to produce a hundred non-visual babies with a trait-carrying (heterozygous or homozygous) mate. It would still be a het. Just with an improbably long string of poor luck. Such an example is pretty specific (and extreme), though, and of low likelihood.

[axeman]

Good info here. I have been trying to figure out how to handle something along these lines. I bred a Quake ph Black Lace to a genetic reduced normal. She laid 7 eggs, 1 male and 6 females. I can't tell what I have for sure. I am pretty sure one of the females is a Quake but the rest I can't tell. I have sent pictures to a couple of others that work with Quakes. They have said that a couple others could be. They did pick the same animals, but couldn't say for certain that they were Quakes. I think I am going to offer the whole clutch up as having the potential to be Quakes. Also plan on letting them grow a bit to see if I can tell as they age.

[sschind]

Personally I'd just say screw it, and really can't blame anyone when something doesnt prove. Snakes move hands and breeders so often it's hard to put blame on any one person in my opinion. Unless you believe that person was purposely trying to swindle you. When it comes to multigene animals and hets, it's always a gamble.

There is a difference between blame and responsibility. Is a seller to blame if the snake turns out not to be what it was represented as? Maybe not but he is responsible for making it right.

[Dbz4246]

Maybe not but he is responsible for making it right.

This I can agree with... I had a really thoughtful response but got distracted... Anyway, yes.

[Randy F]

There are also points at which I will never concede to drawing any line. If a homozygous female gives rise to a heterozygous hatchling, it does not matter if that hatchling goes on to produce a hundred non-visual babies with a trait-carrying (heterozygous or homozygous) mate. It would still be a het. Just with an improbably long string of poor luck. Such an example is pretty specific (and extreme), though, and of low likelihood.

I understand completely, but you want people to buy from you because of quality. People are buying hets because they want to make visuals but can't afford them. At this point it is more of a quality issue. I replaced a snake that died over a month after it sold. They guy never got it to eat and didn't contact me until it died. I could have said "sorry dude" and done. One snake here and there is good business and standing up for your quality.

[nickolasanastasiou]

I understand completely, but you want people to buy from you because of quality. People are buying hets because they want to make visuals but can't afford them. At this point it is more of a quality issue. I replaced a snake that died over a month after it sold. They guy never got it to eat and didn't contact me until it died. I could have said "sorry dude" and done. One snake here and there is good business and standing up for your quality.

That is a different scenario than the genetic assurance topic my paragraph you quoted spoke to. While there are other reasons to buy hets than cost (I buy hets and homozygous animals and not for lack of budget when I buy hets), I do agree with you regarding why most people purchase heterozygotes instead of homozygotes.

[Randy F]

This whole topic was brought up not about hets but about a Dom/codom gene that is not there. Then it went to what would be called enough to say it wasn't there. Once we start talking about hets that don't produce it becomes a quality issue. We can do a completely different thread on that. Just as this, it will be dependent on people's ethics. I myself believe my animals are halite enough to stand by them. If I can't stand by what I sell, why should anyone buy from me?

[nickolasanastasiou]

This whole topic was brought up not about hets but about a Dom/codom gene that is not there. Then it went to what would be called enough to say it wasn't there. Once we start talking about hets that don't produce it becomes a quality issue. We can do a completely different thread on that. Just as this, it will be dependent on people's ethics. I myself believe my animals are halite enough to stand by them. If I can't stand by what I sell, why should anyone buy from me?

A single copy of a dom/codom gene is a het.

[Randy F]

I am sure you completely know for this example we are separating Dom/codom to show it is not recessive. This is a discussion on where people take responsibility. So we get your facts, you stand behind everything you sell no matter what anyone says it is, cool.

[nickolasanastasiou]

I am sure you completely know for this example we are separating Dom/codom to show it is not recessive. This is a discussion on where people take responsibility. So we get your facts, you stand behind everything you sell no matter what anyone says it is, cool.

Just going by what you said. Anything with a pair of dissimilar alleles at the same locus is a het regardless of the mode of inheritance. Not about hets, but instead about...hets. The genetic discussion is still unrelated to a scenario of a non-feeder all the same.

I do not disagree with your non-feeder response as a nice practice.

Still, as a matter of quality, any buyer is capable of extinguishing the life of an animal of the utmost quality. I am not immune to this potential, either. I do not know of any buyer that is. That is why so many only cover things to a point. Where that point lies is up to the seller and that should be made clear to prospective buyers in the seller's terms. It is a stroke of generosity to go beyond one's terms. I have from time to time, but that is at my discretion and I am not obligated to do so. Having had a customer who cooked a very expensive baby right after receipt by sticking it in a shoebox right under an MVB placed directly above the box at the height of the shoebox's sides, I know all too well that an animal of the highest quality can be "returned to dust" in short order by zero fault of the seller and for which the seller need not express anything beyond polite condolences to the buyer. If you as a seller decide to sacrifice more than your fair share in response to my explained scenario, you would fully be within your right to do so, but you would be equally within your right not to do so. Neither makes you a better person. Simply a different person.

[Randy F]

I agree completely. That's why when the guy contacted me and asked about the snake not eating after the second day and I asked if he put it in a bag or box with the pinky? He said he laid the snake on the bed and put the pinky there......I bought it back. Eats great in its tub where it's comfortable! If I know I am not responsible then I try and help them out but do not have an obligation. The guy where the baby died and I actually gave him the purchase price in credit, bought about 6 more from me. I approach every deal as though I was the buyer as well and try and make sense of it.

I actually am in the middle of a sitsuations where someone sold me a leopard pied that after 5 clutches and 2 years gave me no leopards. I am talking to him but it does not look like it's going anywhere. It made me wonder what people think. Like I said, I try and see what people think and not just react. I was not sure if what I offered was reasonable or not. I did not want to put names or actual facts because he could always make good and I cant stand it when people run right out to talk bad about someone.