Morphs with Genetic Health Issues

[lilgreenbee]

I'm collecting information on ball python morphs that might carry harmful or lethal genetics. Given that there are so many different morphs out there today, I think it would be easy for somebody who is uneducated to buy one and not know what they are getting into, which is why I'd like to spread as much info as possible, and ask for some expert opinions.

The ones that I know are:
Wobble: Spider, HGW, Woma, Powerball, Champagne, and super Sable
Lethal: Super HGW, HGWxSpider, ?super Champagne?
Egg binding: Desert/tiger (rly well documented threat here)
Please add more that you know. I'm a leo person so BP's are not my strong point.

I have a bit of a breeder's survey:
1. Which of these morphs do you work with?
2. Do some have more severe symptoms than others? Which ones? Are they of the same morph? Are they a combo of two or more morphs with genetic issues? Are they related?
3. When did they first start showing symptoms?
4. What is the quality of life for them? Are they able to eat, shed, and breed on their own?
5. Has one ever died or had to be euthanized because of their health issues?
6. Have you ever bred a lethal combo before? If so, did the snake hatch or die in its egg? If it hatched, how long did it live?
7. Have you ever produced a chimera from a lethal combo? If so, did it hatch or die in its egg? How long did it live?
8. Are you very selective about which individuals get to breed? Do you keep some, or sell some, as pet only?
9. When you first got your snakes, were you aware of its genetic health problems? Have you educated others?
10. Do you have a thread/Facebook page/Youtube channel etc documenting working with these morphs?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. :)

[SPJ]

kinking = caramels
duck bill = super black pastel, super cinnamon, cinnamon/black pastel cross
bug eyes = super lesser, super butter

Out of the ones you listed, I work with spider and black pastel. Very low wobble with the breeders I have. Offspring have shown very minimal wobble. I won't go for a super with the black pastels/pewters I have.

Desert, is the only pet animal here due to the gene.

[bcr229]

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

[lilgreenbee]

kinking = caramels
duck bill = super black pastel, super cinnamon, cinnamon/black pastel cross
bug eyes = super lesser, super butter

Out of the ones you listed, I work with spider and black pastel. Very low wobble with the breeders I have. Offspring have shown very minimal wobble. I won't go for a super with the black pastels/pewters I have.

Desert, is the only pet animal here due to the gene.

Thank you for your information. I hadn't heard of defects in some of these morphs before. I'm a bit surprised I haven't, given of how readily available these are. I'm just speculating, but I wonder if it's a co-dominant/incomplete dominant thing in general.

Glad to see your snakes are thriving I hope they continue to do well.

[lilgreenbee]

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Perfect! Thanks for the list.

[Dbz4246]

Since your main question was answered via the link, I'll skip to the Survey:

1. Which of these morphs do you work with?
I own spider, HGW, and champagnes. No supers, but also have cinnamon, black pastel, and spotnose

2. Do some have more severe symptoms than others? Which ones? Are they of the same morph? Are they a combo of two or more morphs with genetic issues? Are they related?
I have a Pastel HGWG, and she has severe wobble and corkscrewing. That's how she was sold to me, but I was not made aware of this till I got home and was actually able to watch her. My spider HRA has a slight wobble during feeding, but her hit ratio on the first strike is about 80%.

3. When did they first start showing symptoms?
When I first got her/birth

4. What is the quality of life for them? Are they able to eat, shed, and breed on their own?
The spider isn't really affected except missing her meal on the first strike 20% of the time. The pastel HGWG, I had to assist feed for a while, and now she is starting to able to strike-ish on her own and has eaten on her own 3 times now.

5. Has one ever died or had to be euthanized because of their health issues?
I euthanized a normal baby I had that was severely kinked, and had a deformed jaw. Reason for the issues was unknown.

6. Have you ever bred a lethal combo before? If so, did the snake hatch or die in its egg? If it hatched, how long did it live?
N/A

7. Have you ever produced a chimera from a lethal combo? If so, did it hatch or die in its egg? How long did it live?
N/A

8. Are you very selective about which individuals get to breed? Do you keep some, or sell some, as pet only?
Yes?

9. When you first got your snakes, were you aware of its genetic health problems? Have you educated others?
I knew of all the potential issues with all my snakes and combos, but I was not made aware of the severity of my PHGWG.

10. Do you have a thread/Facebook page/Youtube channel etc documenting working with these morphs?
No

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Pretty much any combos of morphs that are lethal in their super are also lethal. So super spider is lethal, super hgw is lethal, and super champagne is lethal, and so are any combination of those genes (spider champagne, champagne hgw, hgw spider).

I hatched out two clutches of hidden gene woma combo babies this year. The dad shows very minimal signs of wobble and all of the offspring showed almost no wobble as well, except one female pastel hgw who has it very noticeably. The siblings in these clutches that did not have HGW in them were perfectly normal.

I would argue that it's random how much it expresses but I haven't done hundreds of clutches of these like some people. As far as I know spiders and champagnes are the same way.

[ElexisC]

Can anyone prove the super spider? I have seen people say they have never lost eggs with spider to spider breeding, and they're all just spider when they hatch. Someone claimed a super spider is white but wouldn't at least half the clutch be super if that was the case?

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[bks2100]

Can anyone prove the super spider? I have seen people say they have never lost eggs with spider to spider breeding, and they're all just spider when they hatch. Someone claimed a super spider is white but wouldn't at least half the clutch be super if that was the case?

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25% would be white. The people I've seen say that the super spider was white was an egg that went bad during incubation and they cut open the egg and the snake was all white, which I've also heard is typical if an egg dies in the middle of incubation. Something about pattern is the last thing to develop.

[ElexisC]

But at a 25% chance and how many people breeding them you'd think a lot more people would have hit those odds. Couldn't the white snake just be a normal one that the egg just died?

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[AbsoluteApril]

There may not be a super form of spider. Could just be a dom morph, not co-dom (co-dom has a super version). White snakes in the egg could be super or could be an underdeveloped whatever baby since pattern/color is usually the last to develop. I don't have proof about spider one way or the other just some thoughts.

[bks2100]

But at a 25% chance and how many people breeding them you'd think a lot more people would have hit those odds. Couldn't the white snake just be a normal one that the egg just died?

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Yea that's what I was getting at. The "evidence" for super spider being lethal is very spotty. But at the same time, I would have thought someone would have found a spider so far that was cranking out 100% spider offspring, so the evidence that a homozygous spider snake (or lack of really) is also spotty.

I personally believe something else is happening here but I couldn't begin to figure it out, especially without a lot of clutch records for spider x spider pairings.

[peacelover28]

I personally don't have any experience breeding bp's but I do have a super spider male and a spider female. Could that end badly if I bred them?

[Dbz4246]

I personally don't have any experience breeding bp's but I do have a super spider male and a spider female. Could that end badly if I bred them?

How do you know it's a super spider?

[peacelover28]

He's a super pastel killer bee spider but I'm not well versed in genes yet so I'm unsure if that qualifies as a super spider

[Dbz4246]

He's a super pastel killer bee spider but I'm not well versed in genes yet so I'm unsure if that qualifies as a super spider

No, the "Super Sider" that is being discussed is a snake that has 2 spider genes in it, which in theory either doesn't exist, can't exist because the combo may be lethal, or can exist but would take many breedings to be definative. And your snake that you have sounds like a Killer Bee, which is a Super Pastel Spider. No need to mention the other names :thumbsup:

[peacelover28]

Thanks for the clarification. A super spider... sounds intriguing. I love the spider gene myself so it would be interesting to try. But with all the colors available it would be interesting to actually get a pair of pure spider.