Fat, huge tail= healthy?

[ShannanD25]

I'd just like to get everyone's opinion on this...
I've started keeping my Leos a bit leaner then the huge fat tailtype you see. Now please dont misunderstand me, leaner, not skinny! I am still supplementing with vitamins and all that good stuff. I am just not feeding as much as often.

What does everyone think? Is a fatter gecko healthier, or is it better to keep them a few grams lighter then what could be considered fat? And what is considered overweight?

[o0 RYAN 0o]

Just make sure you let your female breeders and babies/juvies eat all that they want! I'm sure that's obvious though. I'll see you later...and just one more week until the show. I can't wait!

[ShannanD25]

Well of course! Babies are pigs...
Yes, one more week untill the Hamburg PA show. Can you tell we are all so excited to go?

[StinaUIUC]

I believe that overweight leos will have the same problems as overweight mammals...and that includes breeding females! An excess of fat could make it difficult to lay eggs. I see a fat tail as fine...just so long as their bodies aren't rotund...lol

[Mark and Aimee]

Could someone post a picture of an overweight Leo? I can't recall ever seeing one. :look:

[StinaUIUC]

In my opinion almost all of Cody's (www.progeckos.com) leos are obese. This is not to put Cody down or anything...his animals are gorgeous...its just my opinion that they could all stand to lose some weight!

[ShannanD25]

That is that all roach diet!
He has some BIG Leos....at least it means he takes great care of them!

[Vince]

IMO I think XXXL leos are a product of shoe box style houseing. they have little room to move around, or chase down their food. they are like those cows that stay in the pen and only the head sticks out to eat the food in front of their faces. that leos is be all means heathy but i just think pre breeding season females should be feed a little extra, and especialy while she is gravid.


A fat tail is a sighn of good heath, when they start haveing fat under arms, and fat on the belly then its getting unheathy.

[StinaUIUC]

Shannan...hehehe :) Like I said, It's nothing against him! They are beautiful animals and he obviously takes good care of them...he just feeds them too much!...lol

Vince...The problem is not "shoe box style houseing" its not adjusting the amount of food to the activity level or general body type. As far as fat under arms...I don't necessarily think that that has much to do with general body fat levels...it seems to just be in some animals genetics to store fat in that area as well as in their tails. I would look mostly at the abdomen to decide body condition...an abdomen that looks rotund (unless of course its eggs that are making it look rotund...lol) means the leo is obese in my opinion.

[o0 RYAN 0o]

I used to let my leos eat as much as they wanted. Now though, with the adults, I limit them. You can kind of guage what is enough.

I had a female get fat sacs and got really worried, so I stop them after so many crickets and feed the adults every other day. Their tails stay nice and fat but their body seems to be just right.

Laying females I would let eat normaly, but once they've laid a set, I'll let them pig out if they want.

[Vince]

My gravid females get a pinkie once a week. and waxworms twice a week. with crickets and mealies every day. but I keep them in large enclosers so they chase around crickets all night. they just dont waddle out and go to the feed bucket in their little shoe box.

[progeckos]

In my opinion almost all of Cody's (www.progeckos.com) leos are obese. This is not to put Cody down or anything...his animals are gorgeous...its just my opinion that they could all stand to lose some weight!
I do keep my breeding females a little more on the heavier side. In MHO it’s better to have females that are a little bigger than a little thinner during breeding. It makes it much easier on them. As far as the males yes I do have some that are pretty big. They are pretty lazy. LOL. It’s not just their weight though. My largest males are over 10” in total length. I definitely regulate the amount of food the males get. Now when breeding season comes around the males aren’t very interested in eating as they want the females so they loose some weight. As a general rule I’ve noticed most leos loose some weight during the winter and breeding seasons.

One thing I’ve noticed that really puts weight on leos is roaches that are properly gutloaded. All of my largest geckos (leos & fat tails) all are fed roaches with my gutload. It just shows how proper nutrition can make a difference in an animal.

BTW this is very interesting topic Shannan. :)

[KelliH]

I feed most all my geckos on pretty much the same schedule, they all get offered the same amounts of food every week. However, all leos (like people) are not built alike, and some seem to have a genetic predisposition to be more, shall we say, rotund!

Like this girl for instance. She is a short, fat leo. She is one of the few exceptions in that she is fed once, yes that's right, once a week. She usually eats either 2-3 superworms or 4-5 large crickets. She does not get pinkies or waxworms.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/7fatgirl1-med.jpg

Then I have some like these below, that are fed 3 times a week (supers and crickets, occasional pink) and they seem to maintain this same body weight, nice, fat tails, and not too fat (well the one on top is just a tad chunky I reckon).

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/7DSCN0013-med.JPG

And then there are some I have that just don't ever get fat, even though they are fed 3 times a week just like the others. They aren't skinny, but they never get hugely fat either.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/7DSCN0031-med.JPG

They are all housed pretty much the same too, so I don't think that really has much to do with it either. Leos just come in a variety of shapes and sizes. I think that only in extreme cases (like the gecko in my first pic LOL) should they be put on a diet. I love my little fatty, but she could stand to lose a few grams for sure!

[Gregg M]

For once I agree with Stina....LOL.... Big fat tails are not always a sign of good health.... The type of encloser is not a huge factor either..... They will get as much play time in a rack as they would in a 30 gallon..... Reptiles for the most part are basicly lazy animals to begin with..... They are cold blooded.....They have evolved to conserve energy instead of wasting it on running around like a warm blooded animal..... Do you honestly think that they run around and frolic in the wilderness???? Reptiles do not move at any considerable pace unless they are being chased, threatend, or they are hunting down food..... Plain and simple.... What you see your leos doing in a cage is basicly the same as what they do in the wild..... The reason why lots of captive reptiles are over weight is because they have an endless supply of food availiable to them that they normally do not get in the wild......

[Vince]

yeah ok, my leos climb all over the place at night, run around the cage chaseing food, and dig in the substrate. racks are lame. they do good for houseing geckos for professional breeding but thats about it. keeping a leo in a shoe box is like keeping a beardie in a 10 gal fish tank

[Gregg M]

Yeah ummm Well I think you are as wrong as wrong can be..... So your leos are frolicing????? LOL

[Vince]

of cource, they hold hands and skip around the cage as well.

[Gregg M]

LOL..... Funny stuff man..... It been a while since I laughed out loud from reading a post.....

[aliceinwl]

I house my leos in racks. I use the big blanket boxes for my breeding groups. There are cork bark slabs and hides in each box. They seem to enjoy it and I don't feel that they are under stimulated and the blanket boxes give tham about as much floor space as a 20 gallon.

I agree with Kelli geckos have different body types / metabolic levels. Some just seem to hold more weight.

I have certain females that won't eat while ovulating, and won't eat the last week or two before they lay. I like to let them gain all the weight they can in the off season, so that they don't lose too much during the breeding season. I also have certian males that go off feed while breeding.

I think that partly we're breeding for geckos that hold more weight too. I know that when I'm considering purchasing a gecko, I feel much more comfortable getting one with a big plump tail. Within my collection, my fastest growers are also often my fattest, they are the first to reach breeding size so they are more likely to be held back as breeders and they lay the most eggs.

-Alice

[robin d.]

every gecko is different in some form or fashon. i think cody's geckos look great!!! with experience you find what is and what is not the right amount for each individual gecko (yes i am speaking with you in mind "stina"). some are more round some more slender, some short and some long.. some get huge tails and some not... there is a difference between a big healthy gecko no matter what size shape ect. and an obese one... if you want to see an obese leo go look at the reptiles magazine that has the picture of moose.. now him and his horizontal fat rolls are obese. but like i said the fattness,size,length and tail is all relitive per each gecko

[Vince]

check out the thread i made about the subspecies thing, maybe thats a factor in why some are differnt shapes then others?

[robin d.]

yes the reason why we have all these different sizes and shape is due to the fact the geckos we work with now are basically very pretty mutts... many many many years of subspecies crosses, crosses crosses and then even more crosses..look at different geckos... look at the shapoe of the body, the shape of the head , eye placcement and size... the feet and toes. two animals can come from the same parents and exibit totally different traits, one may be long and lean while the other is short and squaty, one may have a long head while the others have smaller, rounder heads (since our geckos have been so crossed subspecies wise)

[wahberee]

fatter is better.
I want a gecko so fat that itll roll quicker then it runs.

[StinaUIUC]

every gecko is different in some form or fashon. i think cody's geckos look great!!! with experience you find what is and what is not the right amount for each individual gecko (yes i am speaking with you in mind "stina"). some are more round some more slender, some short and some long.. some get huge tails and some not... there is a difference between a big healthy gecko no matter what size shape ect. and an obese one... if you want to see an obese leo go look at the reptiles magazine that has the picture of moose.. now him and his horizontal fat rolls are obese. but like i said the fattness,size,length and tail is all relitive per each gecko
I agree that every leo is unique...and yes there is a difference between a big healthy leo and an obese one...same thing with humans. And yes there are different body types...however body type has nothing to do with fat. There are cases in which an animal to be obese no matter what they eat (Kelli's leo for example...lol...wow)...however that generally means that there is something wrong with it. Look at humans...being overweight has health effects no matter what the cause is, be it imbalanced hormones, overeating...whatever. There is no reason for it to be any different with leopard geckos even though they are reptiles. Like I said...people need to take into account activity level and general body type (or metabolism or however you want to look at it) when feeding individual leos. In my opinion a leo that stays very rotund even when fed very little (like Kelli's girl) should not be bred...because there is probably a condition that could be genetic.

[Gregg M]

Oh no Stina, dont got with the "not breeding it because it might be genetic" thing....LOL.... I think we had enough of that talk for atleast the next month or two.....LOL

[StinaUIUC]

oh no...I'm sorry! pretend that sentence isn't there!!!!! lol

[montezuma]

That is that all roach diet!
He has some BIG Leos....at least it means he takes great care of them!

Am I a blind or is this contradictory to the whole reason you decided to restart this topic as a new thread? You can't have it both ways!

[robin d.]

In my opinion a leo that stays very rotund even when fed very little (like Kelli's girl) should not be bred...because there is probably a condition that could be genetic.

this coming from the person whom think non detrimental defects are fine to breed (ie. kink tails and dwarfs) and detrimental ones arent. puhlease!!!!!
reptiles work completely different than mammals... warm and hot months they gourge themselves, breeding or not and if you think they travel miles of even 100's of yards you are just kiding yourself. the cooler months they slow down to minimal eating and less moving around... come spring the warmth hits they begin to eat again and soon start mating. fat is detrimental in reptiles. this is what they live off durring the cooler months and while they are gravid and producing egg or with males so darn horney they wont even eat because they want to breed.
it is quite a bit easier to understand especially if you have ever kept snake... live bearers are the best ones though... once you see the reprpoductive cycle of a boa you will see why they need that extra weight. but in boas from sub species to sub species.. that amount of weight is different, it's relive....all we can call out geckos are leopard geckos.. all or most of the subspecies have been crossed and crossed... i wish marcia or kelli would come on here and tell you the size of adult leopard geckos 10 years back... you would be very suprised... only reciently have we had larger geckos with the introduction of a few large lines, one being the ray hines hypo

[ShannanD25]

Gene,
What I meant is Cody takes the time to hand feed each gecko...their weight indicates he spends alot of time with them which to me means he cares a great deal about them thus he takes good care of them. I should have explained that a bit better.
But on this topic, is feeding your gecko so he/she is that plump healthy or not? I'm just trying to get everyone's opinion, because I really don't know.

[aliceinwl]

I think that leopard geckos have clearly evolved to cope with feast and famine periods. In the spring, insects are usually very abundant getting progressively scarcer as the dry season wares on. I think leopard geckos are adapted to be "fat" at least part of ther year. I think that the question is, is it okay if they are fat all year? Does anyone know what the leading cause of natural death in captive leos is? The answer to this question would probably shed a lot of light on the subject.
-Alice

[StinaUIUC]

this coming from the person whom think non detrimental defects are fine to breed (ie. kink tails and dwarfs) and detrimental ones arent. puhlease!!!!!
OK...1. I never said the were fine to breed...maybe you should go back and read that thread... 2. That has nothing to do with this topic so just drop it.
reptiles work completely different than mammals... warm and hot months they gourge themselves, breeding or not and if you think they travel miles of even 100's of yards you are just kiding yourself. the cooler months they slow down to minimal eating and less moving around... come spring the warmth hits they begin to eat again and soon start mating. fat is detrimental in reptiles. this is what they live off durring the cooler months and while they are gravid and producing egg or with males so darn horney they wont even eat because they want to breed.
Reptiles and mammals are not THAT different...There is basic physiology that is the same across ALL vertebrates. BTW...have you ever heard of hibernating mammals??...yes, hibernation is different than what reptiles do...but it is a similar behavior. Bears in the wild eat all summer and especially in the fall to gain body fat to hibernate...however they aren't "rolly polly" spring, summer, fall, and winter...they actually lose some of that weight in the winter! There is a difference between being fat year round and having weight fluctuations. I realize some leos lose a lot of weight during the breeding season, and yes, they should be fed more in the off season to gain back sufficient weight to keep them healthy during the breeding season (as I said...activity level and body type or whatever should be taken into consideration when feeding leos!)...but a LOT of leopard geckos are obese year round, and that is NOT healthy...I don't care if we're talking about fish, geckos, frogs, snakes, bears, humans, whatever...being obese is unhealthy!

[leaftail]

.... What you see your leos doing in a cage is basicly the same as what they do in the wild.....

That's right, at least if they have the room to. My leos spend the day comatose in their hides, and as soon as the lights go out, they wake up and cruise around. By morning they've covered every inch of their enclosures multiple times. I have the unique (as far as I know) perspective of being in the same room all night as my adult leos and believe me they are active. All night long. Just, I assume, as they do in the wild - they hunt all night long, and they do a whole lot of walking.

None of my leos has ever had those armpit fat thingys. for a long time I had no idea what people were talking about. Now I think mine are just in better shape.

in other words, my geckos can kick the crap outa yours!

[StinaUIUC]

hmm...I sleep in the same room as my leos as well...but I find that mine are actually crepuscular (don't know if I spelled that right...), and are most active just after it gets dark and just before it becomes light and sleep during the day and middle of the night. (I know this because I'm up and around frequently until 5 am...lol)

[robin d.]

Reptiles and mammals are not THAT different
other than the similarity that they both have a spine. cold blod v warm blood... how the retain heat, metbolize food and these two interact with each other... there is so much different in them... why do you think REAL cat and dog verts have so much problems diagnosing any problems its because they are thinking on a warm blooded level... some of the best avian vets though are fantastic reptile vets

[StinaUIUC]

They have most of the same organs...and the organs have mostly the same cell types, which means the same functions. While they do not have the homeostasis of mammals, simple cellular biology shows that they are not as different as you seem to think. Vets that do not specialize in exotics do not do well with reptiles mostly because they have completely different diseases and do have different metabolisms (which can make medication dosing difficult if it is a disease that can affect non-exotics). Most avian vets have recieved a more diverse exotic education than just birds, and had to learn about reptiles in vet school.

[geckogrl6]

Ok, this post is gonna turn into another doozy, so I just have two pertinent questions,

1. Who posted about fatty liver disease? Please re-enlighten us, or at least me. I'm seeing a possible connection here.

2. Aren't birds warm-blooded? I'm not being fecicious, I'm NOT a bird person, I genuinely don't know!

[leaftail]

1) The fatty liver disease didnt have anything to do with overweight leos.
and 2) um.... now that ya mention it.... yeah, I think birds are warm blooded... lol

[aliceinwl]

Yes birds are warm blooded, but, they are much closer to reptiles than mammals.
-Alice

[geckogrl6]

this is how I gauge when to back off the feeding a little. This girl was just bred, but I'm still not giving her any waxworms. But I think when the spine starts to "sink" into the rolls, as in this pic, it's time for a diet. I think a gecko of a good size (read:healthy, not obese) should NOT have a channel like this running from skull to tail. Although i do find in cute!

[StinaUIUC]

Yes, birds are warm blooded...but they are believed to have developed from dinosaurs similar dinosaurs to those that reptiles evolved from. At any rate...they are considered exotics, and in vet school you basically have 3 choices, large animal (mostly horses and cows), small animal (mostly cats and dogs), and exotics (pretty much everything else).

[StinaUIUC]

oops... **dinosaurs similar to those that reptiles evolved from**

[progeckos]

Gene,
What I meant is Cody takes the time to hand feed each gecko...their weight indicates he spends alot of time with them which to me means he cares a great deal about them thus he takes good care of them. I should have explained that a bit better.
But on this topic, is feeding your gecko so he/she is that plump healthy or not? I'm just trying to get everyone's opinion, because I really don't know.
Thanks for the kind words Shannan! I used to hand feed all my geckos but I started getting too many. I still hand feed some of them but the majority are now dish fed. I do spend a lot of time with my geckos and care a great deal about them. :)

the cooler months they slow down to minimal eating and less moving around... come spring the warmth hits they begin to eat again and soon start mating. fat is detrimental in reptiles. this is what they live off durring the cooler months and while they are gravid and producing egg or with males so darn horney they wont even eat because they want to breed.
I agree. They have to be fat enough to make it through the winter and breeding seasons. Now if their eating never slowed down or didn’t loose weight during breeding they would be obese. But since they do go through those cycles it shouldn’t hurt. Most reptiles seem to have weights like a roller coaster that go up and down with the seasons.

[KelliH]

Well, personally I feed my females (for the most part) a lot because I don't want them to get skinny during the breeding season, which can be really hard on them. I hand feed mine (well, off feeding tongs) supers a lot but do give them crickets that they have to put forth some effort to catch as well LOL.

One of things I miss about keeping my geckos in cages with glass fronts is being able to observe their behaviour at night. They are fascinating to watch, and do move around the cage a lot.

[robin d.]

they may have some of the same organs stina but that doesnt mean squat. Hey they have a brain to but that does not make them intellegent. snakes for instance have lungs yes like we go however one is much smaller than the other and they basically sustain themselves on this "lone lung", the liver is almost as long as the right lung, the lower 2/3rds of the snakes body is mainly the digestive tract and the reproductive organs and the end part of the right lung (its long and very elongated).... we do not have a jacobsons organ nor do we have a glottis [well we do but it is not used in the same way as reptiles with the exception of frogs... in that case it has to do with the vocal cords and larynx]and not to mention the difference in how the renal system fuctions as well as the certral nervous system,,, these things differ greatly in reptiles. to compare mamillian biology to reptilian biology is like comparing apples to oranges
i have preformed disections on snakes and geckos, frogs, rats and pigs you would be amazed at the differences in just a snake and a gecko....
did you know that you can drown a snake or gecko by filling its glottis with water? the water does not even have to go down the esophogus ... whats why you must tube in fluids or any slurry to avoid the glottis
sometimes we pick up fresh roadkill snakes just to disect them just to get a better understanding of the internals. So we can better understand our own animals

[StinaUIUC]

ummm...just because an organ has a different shape or is in a different location, doesn't mean it doesn't do the same thing...lungs for example...so what if a snake only has one functional lung and its enlarged and elongated...its still a lung it functions basically the same way ours do! Do you know what homology is? All of those organs started out as the exact same thing in one animal and have devoloped and diverged to todays form....sure there are some things that are very different, but most of it is actually quite similar. If you look at bones for example...all vertebrates have basically the same skeletal structures, some bones may have dissapeared or shrunk, or changed shape slightly, but the ones that are there, are the same through any animal you look at...the same goes for organs...though there are more differences there. Some organs have developed different functions or lost function, but generally the functions are the same. Doing a disection tells you jack squat about what organs do...it just shows you what they look like.

[StinaUIUC]

Oh, and to add...lets say you look at like a cow vs. a human...there is a very different digestive system at work...but that doesn't mean the cells and functions aren't the same. A cow has 4 stomach compartments and uses bacterial fermentation...humans have a single simple stomach and do not use bacterial fermentation. That doesn't mean that a cow can't be obese or you can't compare anything about thier digestion. Just because there are differences doesn't mean there aren't similarities. All of the organs developed from the same thing...and no, humans don't have a jacobson's organ...but horses and dogs and cats do...and they use them! Ours just became obsolete at some point and eventually disappeared.

[Gregg M]

Just a side note for stina.... At some point in the evolution of man, we did infact use bacteria as a means of digestion..... That is what our apendix was for.....

[StinaUIUC]

We don't use bacterial fermentation now...that was the point...like I said, everything started the same somewhere in the past.

[robin d.]

stina, you just have an answer for everything... your COMPLETELY right mammals and reptiles are exactly the same no if's and's or but's about it
(you really have no clue)

[robin d.]

i ferment from time to time... especially now since i have no gal bladder :erm: least thats what my husband says.... that and when in hittin the booze :blush: i can be a lush :eek3:
but really we do have intestinal bacteria why do you think farts stink... partially because of the sulfer that is in the food in our diet but also because of the bacteria, when they "interact" with certain types of foods they in turn produce a stinky smell <~~~ discovery channel factoid :D

[SPJ]

Does this mean I should put this one on a diet now?

[Golden Gate Geckos]

In my opinion almost all of Cody's (www.progeckos.com) leos are obese.Stina, you just don't know how to be diplomatic, do you?I know that when I'm considering purchasing a gecko, I feel much more comfortable getting one with a big plump tail. Within my collection, my fastest growers are also often my fattest, they are the first to reach breeding size so they are more likely to be held back as breeders and they lay the most eggs.I find this to be 100% true with mine as well. And yes there are different body types...however body type has nothing to do with fat.What??? This is absolute hogwash! Everyone knows that certain body types have tendencies toward being lean and others to be fat. Shorter, squattier geckos tend to be chubbier than very long ones. i wish marcia or kelli would come on here and tell you the size of adult leopard geckos 10 years back... you would be very suprised... only reciently have we had larger geckos with the introduction of a few large lines, one being the ray hines hypo.It is true that we are breeding larger geckos now. Up until about 4-5 years ago, the average overall length for an adult female leo was around 6", and full adult body weight was around 40 grams. My very first male gecko was about 7" and never exceeded 50 grams. With the introduction of wild-caught sub-species into our present day leopard geckos, and the fact that we know so much more about their nutrition and husbandry, has started a trend toward more robust geckos. Who posted about fatty liver disease? Please re-enlighten us, or at least me. I'm seeing a possible connection here.It was most likely me. Hepatic Lipidosis, or fatty-liver disease in Leopard Geckos is usually due to a rapid loss of stored body/tail fat that clogs up the liver so it cannot function properly. This is usually due to anorexia, and not from being fat. I think that leopard geckos have clearly evolved to cope with feast and famine periods. In the spring, insects are usually very abundant getting progressively scarcer as the dry season wares on. I think leopard geckos are adapted to be "fat" at least part of ther year.This is correct. Leos brumate for about 3 months in the wild, and just like any other species that 'hybernate', they need the extra fat storage to keep them alive for the winter. Also, their metabolic rate slows way down during this time, so when they wake up in the early spring when breeding season begins, they have plenty of stored fat for egg production.

This brings me to a discussion I had awhile back with Dr. Theodore Papenfuss, a Professor of Herpetology here at U.C. Berkeley who specializes in the reptiles of Asia. It is a common belief that stored fat, nutrients, and water in the tails is key to yolk production in the developing eggs. This does not mean an obese gecko is better fit to produce eggs, it means that geckos that have a more efficient metabolism will have plenty of extra nutrients stored in their tails. They tend to lay more eggs, and the quality of the yolk is much richer... which in turn produces bigger, chubbier hatchlings.

[Vince]

We don't use bacterial fermentation now...that was the point...like I said, everything started the same somewhere in the past.

yes we do silly, when you fart the smell is from sulfer, and the sulfer is the waste product of the bacteria. silly gooose. If your body didnt have natural flora you would be in big trouble.

[Vince]

I ferment orange jucie under the ratiator

[StinaUIUC]

When I said we don't use bacterial fermentation I meant that it is not a main mode of digestion for us...where it is in cows. I do know what I'm talking about...Robin I think you need to go take a few bio and anatomy classes and stop picking fights with me just to fight with me.

[QUOTE]And yes there are different body types...however body type has nothing to do with fat.

What??? This is absolute hogwash! Everyone knows that certain body types have tendencies toward being lean and others to be fat. Shorter, squattier geckos tend to be chubbier than very long ones. [QUOTE]
Body type is simply the genetics leading to muscle/bone development...it doesn't have anything to do with fat. Some geckos will have different metabolisms yes...but that doesn't mean that they have to be fat or will be (unless they have a disease or are fed too much).

[Vince]

are we still talking about geckos?

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Body type is simply the genetics leading to muscle/bone development...it doesn't have anything to do with fat. Some geckos will have different metabolisms yes...but that doesn't mean that they have to be fat or will be (unless they have a disease or are fed too much).Christina, I am going to respond to you this way:

1.) You are 21 years old, and I am 50. This means I know a LOT more than you do.
2.) You are a second or third year student. I have a Master's Degree in Organic Chemistry from U.C. Berkeley.
3.) You have had leopard geckos for about a year. I have been breeding them for 10 years.
4.) You have an arrogant need to always be right in your posts without facts other than what you claim to have learned in school. I try not to post unless I actually have the facts.

Plain and simple, I think you are in the wrong field of study. You should either be a lawyer or a politician.

[Gregg M]

OMG, an all female pissing contest..... I think they have separate websites for this sort of activity....LOL LOL LOL...... I crack me up sometimes....

[StinaUIUC]

1. Being older than me doesn't mean you know more than me...
2. I am a 3rd year. Fine you have a Masters...I can respect that...
3. How long I've had leos has nothing to do with thier anatomy and physiology...
4. I post what I know, I may be a little fuzzy on some details, but I try to only post things I'm sure about. I only have a need to be right when I know I am and others are aguing pointlessly...I've seen nothing to prove me wrong... If I'm proved wrong or see something to make me question what I'm saying, I'll admit it.

Please do not tell me that I am in the wrong field of study...I find that EXTEMELY insulting, rude, and hurtful.

[Vince]

Master's Degree in Organic Chemistry from U.C. Berkeley.

Nuff said.

[StinaUIUC]

Like I said...I can respect the masters degree in organic chem...but Marcia has not said anything to contradict what I've said (other than the body type thing), and organic chem is not anatomy/physiology.

[Vince]

stina what point are you trying to make? im lost, i aint got no learnin.

[Vince]

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/7fatgirl1-med.jpg

!

Fat Girls need love too!

[robin d.]

stina, you need to go into the kitchen and go cut yourself a piece of humble pie and sit down eat it and think.
then you should go and get some more experiencee... go do some research... i would suggest works done by dr. elliot jacobson, dr. roger klingenberg , dr. douglas mader, dr. richard ross, dave barker, david crews, s.c. anderson OH and the list goes on... go study up on those peoples research and findings and until you are done with that go back and give your misinformation to the people on kingsnake and come back when you have anything significant to add because you surely do not hold any credibility here. m'kay?

[StinaUIUC]

Ok yeah...whatever you say robin...throw a bunch of names out there to make it sound like you know everything. I still think you need to go take a few comparative anatomy/physiology classes... Why don't you just go ahead and tell me what's wrong and why?...because all I'm seeing is you picking on me just to pick on me without anything actually intelligent to add.

[robin d.]

go take a few comparative anatomy/physiology classes
been there done that... prolly back when you were in middle school

throw a bunch of names out there to make it sound like you know everything.
i do not throw names out like i know everything... shoot i really do not know anything (relitively speaking i'm a newbie)... i learn from the people whom have been doing it for many many years even before i was born... shoot i learn something new everyday... i have been only been keeping reptiles for seven or eight years... but in that time i have learned who to listen to and where to find the best info and if you want the best info you go to the best and the best are among the names in which i have listed

because all I'm seeing is you picking on me just to pick on me without anything actually intelligent to add.
and yes i am picking at you not because i can but because you have to realize there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more out there than your boi/physiology/anatomy classes.
I can tell you what a text book tells you about this and that but until you get down to the nitty ggritty read some more comprehensive reptile related books (more than the leo manual) articles, research findings and the ARAV (great info here) and crews laboratory, and CAS Herpetolody Findings and Research and by ALL mean get more hands on experience
hey it's not just me who thinks you are clueless.. allot of people do... but i am the one who will TELL you, so be thankful for that otherwise you would be walking around clueless and not even know as opposed to now being clueless and having been told... so now it's no ones fault but your own
like i said earlier go back and play on KS where they believe what you say and most do not know anybetter, because they are new.. spout your misinformation there but it's not wanted here
..because you have no credibility here

[StinaUIUC]

been there done that... prolly back when you were in middle school Well you need to take some more...

[QUOTE]and yes i am picking at you not because i can but because you have to realize there is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more out there than your boi/physiology/anatomy classes.[QUOTE] I am completely aware that there is so much more out there than I've learned already...but that doesn't make what I've learned wrong...which is what you keep telling me...even though you haven't shown why a single thing I said was wrong... I am NOT clueless...heck yes there is tons of stuff I don't know, I don't think I know everything...I just want you to tell me why saying that reptiles have some of the same basic physiology/anatomy as mammals is wrong...seriously...show me why that's wrong! All that I have said in this entire thread...is that its bad for leos to be overweight 24/7/365, that all vertebrates have some of the same basic physiology/anatomy, and what isn't the same developed and diverged from something that was there at some point in some species in the past. Please show me what's wrong about that!!!

[StinaUIUC]

As far as what you said in my reputation thing Robin....DUH...I know that, and I've said that in this very thread!!! I know they're all different!

I agree that every leo is unique...and yes there is a difference between a big healthy leo and an obese one...same thing with humans. And yes there are different body types...however body type has nothing to do with fat.Body type is simply the genetics leading to muscle/bone development...it doesn't have anything to do with fat. Some geckos will have different metabolisms yes...but that doesn't mean that they have to be fat or will be (unless they have a disease or are fed too much).

[robin d.]

nevermind... you just don't get it... and i am tired of trying... i think Marcia pegged you correctly and explained why. end of discussion

[StinaUIUC]

Yeah...still not seeing anything to prove what I said is incorrect...and I don't think marcia pegged anything.