Something to ponder..... [Archive]

hhmoore

08-12-2005, 09:25 PM

I put my $.02 in a while ago, but I am glad to see these responses. Somehow, I expected to see more of a response from "the other side". Once upon a time, I had a few devenomized snakes. I even used them in some educational programs (such as when I guest lectured for the Herpetology class at a local university - including a "lab" on how to work with venomous snakes. I demonstrated techniques for safely manipulating a variety of cobras, rattlesnakes, gilas, etc., including the use of tongs and hooks.) There was just no way I was going to let students I didn't know practice catching, manipulating, or containing techniques on real hots. One could argue that a kingsnake or other nonvenomous snake could have been substituted, but it certainly wouldn't have been realistic. Nothing behaves quite so much like a pi$$ed off rattlesnake as a pi$$ed off rattlesnake.
Anyway, I prefer my hots intact. Its just the way they are supposed to be. Not to come off as an adrenaline junkie or thrill seeker; but it just isn't the same when they can't fight back, so to speak. The end result is carelessness in handling, shortcuts, and unnecessary risk. (Yes, I know someone that was nearly killed by a 'void)
As to the hypothetical scenario posed (a harmless, effective, permanent way to cause the "disappearance or deactivation" of venom) - If I wanted a cornsnake, I would buy a cornsnake. When I want a cobra (rattlesnake, whatever), the same rule applies: This is what it is...if it isn't what you want, or you don't have the skills and knowledge to deal with it, DON'T BUY IT.

DragonCharm

08-15-2005, 10:54 AM

I would never change a hot. Its part of what they are. Would you like to be injected with something that made you sterile and impotent? Really it wouldn't hurt.
Sterile sure, impotent....no thanks. No kids for me please......I have enough kids with scales thanks.

crotalusadamanteus

09-05-2005, 09:40 PM

I had to say no.
I just believe they should be left natural. If you don't have the experience, or aptitude to learn safe handling of hots, you just should not own one.

Ciao,
Rick

Clay Davenport

09-06-2005, 12:17 AM

Although I'm not as adamant about the void issue as some, I still don't approve of it. I personally can condone it in an instance such as Harald described where they were used as teaching tools. In these cases they would be professionally altered as well, not some kitchen table butcher job.
I agree you just can't adequately teach someone how to handle a hot by showing them with a kingsnake.
Beyond that though, there is no reason to do it in my opinion.

I voted no on the poll. I'm not an adrenaline junkie, heck, my rattlers I've had for years and have never physically touched them. There just hasn't been any reason to. I don't have the need to interact with my snakes like that, I keep them for what they are and that's enough reason for me to have them.
I do feel the venom plays a part in other aspects of the snake's existance though, particularly digestion. Sure they can still process their meals without envenomating it, but to remove the venom from the equation is taking that additional step away for no reason.

DragonCharm

09-06-2005, 01:01 AM

After hearing about the possible issues with venomous snakes digesting food I'd have to say no myself. Hadn't really thought of that in the past and didn't know it was an issue.

Dennis1

09-07-2005, 06:07 PM

I hope i dont get ridiculed for this,
But i would use it if i had venomous snakes as long as it was FDA approved
and didnt harm the reptile any

crotalusadamanteus

09-07-2005, 06:23 PM

Nope,

We were "Barred" from ridicule, or flaming anyway. :)

Ciao,
Rick

DragonCharm

09-07-2005, 06:26 PM

No room for ridicule in an intelligent debate. :)

crotalusadamanteus

09-07-2005, 08:47 PM

true words those are.

Dennis1

09-07-2005, 09:20 PM

After hearing about the possible issues with venomous snakes digesting food I'd have to say no myself. Hadn't really thought of that in the past and didn't know it was an issue.
From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
Or maybe someone could breed a genetic flaw in them so they wouldn't be venomous if thats possible,Lets face it Man has been tampering with natures animals for Centuries and far be it for me to tell him he cant as that usually just makes him want to do it more...lol
Just about ALL pets and livestock have been altered and with that tampering there are always negative effects,So i guess its just up to us how bad the effects are and whats acceptable
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate

DragonCharm

09-07-2005, 11:48 PM

From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have
Or maybe someone could breed a genetic flaw in them so they wouldn't be venomous if thats possible,Lets face it Man has been tampering with natures animals for Centuries and far be it for me to tell him he cant as that usually just makes him want to do it more...lol
Just about ALL pets and livestock have been altered and with that tampering there are always negative effects,So i guess its just up to us how bad the effects are and whats acceptable
I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate
From what I've heard it does cause them to have trouble digesting. Trouble digesting causes problems from the undigested food being there and the poor processing of nutrients. I've heard this shortens lifespan considerably.

Morphs like albinos (in captivity) won't cause any issues to the snake, no harm unless it was in the wild and easy for preds to find. Microchipping doesn't harm the animal at all. Descenting won't cause any problems that I know of on a captive animal though it might on a wild animal.

Clay Davenport

09-08-2005, 12:21 AM

From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have

The problem is it would take a significantly large study group and many years to investigate the potential drawbacks to health in relation to digestion.
The point being it's something we're likely to never know completely.
While it's obvious that venom aids in digestion, it's only speculated that it may not be harmful. Considering that for eons venomous snakes have evolved to utilize that venom in the acquiring and digestion of prey, I feel that it's quite likely that their bodies can indeed suffer if the predigestive properties of the venom are removed.
Whether it's harmful or not to remove that factor from the equation is irrelevant to me, the fact that it is beneficial is enough reason to keep them venomous.
It might not harm the overall health of a snake to fail to provide a hidebox for instance, but many of them obviously prefer to use one, and they benefit from the available security of a retreat within the cage. The fact that being without one doesn't harm them isn't enough reason to avoid using one just to have less cage furniture to clean.
It hasn't been scientifically proven that limiting food intake to keep boas or burms at smaller sizes is directly detrimental to health or longevity, but that doesn't justify the practice just because someone wants a burm, but doesn't want an 18 foot snake.

I have long been an advocate of keeping reptiles for what they are, not what you want them to be. I would like to keep gaboon vipers, but for me personally I can't justify keeping that species in my home when compared to the relative risk associated with working with them. For this reason I admire them in other people's collections, but I have consented that I will most likely never own one.
We're not talking about declawing a house cat, or descenting a ferret to make them more enjoyable to live with. We're talking about the internal workings of an animal and it's digestive processes, something essential to life. The fact that the possibility exists that removing venom could be harmful to this, whether or not it has been demonstrated, should be enough reason not to risk doing it just so someone can own a dangerous animal without the danger part.

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 12:46 AM

From what i understand it (venom) only aids in digestion and may not be harmful to the snake if it is subtracted from its diet,I would like to see some long term studies on venomoids to see what if any negative effects they have.Venom serves 2 main purposes - 1) it subdues the prey in a manner which (usually) leaves the snake free from harm, and 2) it plays a huge role in digestion of prey, often beginning its work before the prey animal is eaten. This is especially true in viperid species with their highly cytotoxic venoms. What the venom does is literally destroy tissue by breaking down the cellular structures, making it very easy to process. Without it, the digestive process takes longer (which is not a huge issue in captivity because they aren't exposed to dangers as in the wild, but can lead to problems if the snake is handled/manipulated too soon after feeding). I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold. Aside from the digestion issue, a venomous snake without venom is unable to defend itself - this becomes an issue when some fool opts to toss in a live rat, or when (as instructed to do regularly in Venomoid Inc's certification) one is "testing" the effectiveness of the surgery.
Then, take into consideration the potential for harm in the case of a mishap. An acquaintance of mine was bitten by a "devenomized" black pakistan cobra. The onset of symptoms was fairly slow, taking place over several hours, but followed the expected course. he ended up being flown to a regional "snakebite center" and treated. I believe mechanical ventilation was necessary. He suffered longterm problems due to organ damage (liver, kidneys, and ?), not to mention motor function. These are 2 of the reasons I am opposed to 'voids. (the rest I pretty much posted earlier)

I would like to see opinions on the negative effects on Morphs (specifically albinos),microchipping and even decenting ferrets
I just don't understand why the big deal,Just because someone eats meat, wears fur and leather and owns a venomoid doesn't make them bad
I am glad you've made this a flame free debate
As for morphs, the negative effects are largely those caused by inbreeding. In the wild, these animals would have poor survival rates because they would stand out in their surroundings, making them easy targets. Microchipping, when properly done, does not harm the animal. I believe the biggest risk is of infection, and that is easily avoided with proper technique. And the descenting of ferrets, at least that is a surgical procedure...so at least closer to the basic idea. but the animals are anesthetized, and the surgery is done under sterile conditions. One of the major objections of adversaries of 'voids is the conditions under which the "surgery" is performed. another thread on here shows an example of one setup - it features a board, some nails and a rubber strap - I'll try to dig that up when I finish this. At one time (from what I have heard), the incision was made from the outside, but people didn't like the scarring. Now, the incision is inside the mouth. Historically, the snakes were not anesthetized, but strapped in place with a metal brace holding their mouths open. I know of at least one person that used to inject silicone to prevent the caved in head look (it was probably just silicone caulk). The mortality rate is huge, AND if you do a bit of reading on the subject, you will find that it is not a "simple" procedure. Veterinarians, that are familiar with reptiles and the anatomy/physiology of hots, that have performed the surgery on dead subjects, have commented on how difficult it was to isolate the gland (so as not to remove/damage other things) and that they would not feel comfortable performing this operation on a living subject. Yes, I understand that everything is learned, and that with practice, it may become a skill...perhaps even considered "simple" - but how many deaths are caused in the process? and why is this acceptable?
Yes, I am very against 'voids - but you will rarely see me ranting on the subject. people aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say, and I realize that. But I still say - if you don't want a venomous snake, or don't have the skills to "handle" it...DON'T BUY IT. If you want something that won't hurt you if you screw up, buy a cornsnake...or if you want more of a challenge, a redtailed ratsnake or a whitelipped python.

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 12:53 AM

the pic I referred to above can be found here http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70570 post # 12 (sorry, I'm at work, so I can't save the pics and post them)

Dennis1

09-08-2005, 03:56 AM

Venom serves 2 main purposes - 1) it subdues the prey in a manner which (usually) leaves the snake free from harm, and 2) it plays a huge role in digestion of prey, often beginning its work before the prey animal is eaten. This is especially true in viperid species with their highly cytotoxic venoms. What the venom does is literally destroy tissue by breaking down the cellular structures, making it very easy to process. Without it, the digestive process takes longer (which is not a huge issue in captivity because they aren't exposed to dangers as in the wild, but can lead to problems if the snake is handled/manipulated too soon after feeding).
Ive read the same thing,But it says Aids in digestion.
I havent read anything saying it is essential to digestion,Im not saying you are wrong im saying that it hasnt been proven to me on either thread

I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold.
That would be terrible,But couldnt it have been a number of things that caused this? Did you vet do a necropsy and tell you thats was why?

Aside from the digestion issue, a venomous snake without venom is unable to defend itself - this becomes an issue when some fool opts to toss in a live rat, or when (as instructed to do regularly in Venomoid Inc's certification) one is "testing" the effectiveness of the surgery.
Then, take into consideration the potential for harm in the case of a mishap. An acquaintance of mine was bitten by a "devenomized" black pakistan cobra. The onset of symptoms was fairly slow, taking place over several hours, but followed the expected course. he ended up being flown to a regional "snakebite center" and treated. I believe mechanical ventilation was necessary. He suffered longterm problems due to organ damage (liver, kidneys, and ?), not to mention motor function. These are 2 of the reasons I am opposed to 'voids. (the rest I pretty much posted earlier)
The best point on these threads,And is pretty much why i dont get one
Kinda defeats the purpose

As for morphs, the negative effects are largely those caused by inbreeding. In the wild, these animals would have poor survival rates because they would stand out in their surroundings, making them easy targets.
Inbreeding effects more than just color,When strengthening a desired trait its a pretty safe bet that you are strengthening an undesired one too and is not just color

Microchipping, when properly done, does not harm the animal. I believe the biggest risk is of infection, and that is easily avoided with proper technique.
Microchipping is money driven and unneccessary in my oppinion

And the descenting of ferrets, at least that is a surgical procedure...so at least closer to the basic idea. but the animals are anesthetized, and the surgery is done under sterile conditions.
The same can be said about venomoids

One of the major objections of adversaries of 'voids is the conditions under which the "surgery" is performed. another thread on here shows an example of one setup - it features a board, some nails and a rubber strap - I'll try to dig that up when I finish this. At one time (from what I have heard), the incision was made from the outside, but people didn't like the scarring. Now, the incision is inside the mouth. Historically, the snakes were not anesthetized, but strapped in place with a metal brace holding their mouths open. I know of at least one person that used to inject silicone to prevent the caved in head look (it was probably just silicone caulk). The mortality rate is huge, AND if you do a bit of reading on the subject, you will find that it is not a "simple" procedure. Veterinarians, that are familiar with reptiles and the anatomy/physiology of hots, that have performed the surgery on dead subjects, have commented on how difficult it was to isolate the gland (so as not to remove/damage other things) and that they would not feel comfortable performing this operation on a living subject. Yes, I understand that everything is learned, and that with practice, it may become a skill...perhaps even considered "simple" - but how many deaths are caused in the process? and why is this acceptable?
I have already seen the picture that someone downloaded of the internet and posted on that other thread as an attack which anyone with a lick of sense would not be a party to,And i dont beleive that to be the norm i wouldnt take any of my pets to bubba's garage to get a surgery...lol...That is what i like to call misinformation

Yes, I am very against 'voids - but you will rarely see me ranting on the subject. people aren't going to change their minds because of anything I say, and I realize that. But I still say - if you don't want a venomous snake, or don't have the skills to "handle" it...DON'T BUY IT. If you want something that won't hurt you if you screw up, buy a cornsnake...or if you want more of a challenge, a redtailed ratsnake or a whitelipped python.
I respect your oppinion as well as others on this forum and hope that i will get the same respect
I believe the best way to change peoples minds is to show them proof and i have yet to see it on either side
I want to thank all of you for being civil in this matter it makes for a better learning experience

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 04:40 AM

Inbreeding effects more than just color,When strengthening a desired trait its a pretty safe bet that you are strengthening an undesired one too and is not just color I never said inbreeding only affected color. what I said was that the negative effects in morphs are (for the most part) the ones that are caused by inbreeding. breeding within that close a gene pool, in order to reproduce a color or pattern, results in problems...results in weaker animals with genetic defects. Perhaps I should have spelled it out more clearly in my previous post. my comment on the low survival rate in the wild was more of a side note, I apologize for the confusion it caused.

Microchipping is money driven and unneccessary in my oppinion
then don't have your animals chipped. simple enough. but look at it this way - maybe it isn't "money driven"...maybe it is following the money. with the prevalence of animal theft, and microchipping being proof positive that the animal belongs to you - if you've got a snake that is worth several thousand dollars or more, don't you think it would be worth it to be able to verify ownership.

I have already seen the picture that someone downloaded of the internet and posted on that other thread as an attack which anyone with a lick of sense would not be a party to,And i dont beleive that to be the norm i wouldnt take any of my pets to bubba's garage to get a surgery...lol...That is what i like to call misinformation
regardless of what you believe, the veterinarians that perform this surgery are few and far between. The first person I knew that did this was not a vet, and he performed the procedure in his home. keep in mind this was about 15 years ago. I have since encountered one other person that I know performed the procedure in his basement, and a person that claimed he devenomized snakes himself. I don't know for certain if it was true, but it was a statement that he made TO ME when I asked who devenomized a snake he was offering for sale locally (knowing what I know about this person, and the number of 'voids he offered, I was willing to believe). As for taking your pet to bubba's garage for surgery, most people that have 'voids buy them that way. WHY? because they don't have the skills to care for an intact hot, even for as long as it would take to get it to a vet for surgery...not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway. that point made, I commend them for recognizing this; as the last thing this hobby needs is even more negative press, and stupid people being bitten by snakes they shouldn't have...that is how all the legislation starts.

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 04:55 AM

not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway.
This is another interesting factor. Just for giggles, start calling around to vets - try to find one that will devenomize a banded egyptian cobra for you. Then, if you can find one ask how much it would cost.

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 05:37 AM

Ive read the same thing,But it says Aids in digestion.
I havent read anything saying it is essential to digestion,Im not saying you are wrong im saying that it hasnt been proven to me on either thread

One last thing, please note that I said they can digest prey without venom - but it takes longer. again, with the sheltered lives they lead in captivity, the extension of the digestive process is not a huge issue, as long as the keepers are aware of it and minimize handling and other stressors during this period. from what I recall, length of the total digestive cycle increased by 2-10 days (depending on the species) just from feeding prekilled vs live prey. this was due to the lack of circulation of the venom...the fact that it could only affect tissue where it was injected. I believe that the total absence of venom was shown to extend the process just a bit longer. There have also been some studies that seem to reflect less of an impact on digestive cycles with higher temperatures SO, if one was to elevate temps to the high end of normal range and maintain them there for a week or so after feeding, it may well negate the absence of venom. And personally, I have always recommended the feeding of smaller prey items to 'voids. (if ya gotta keep 'em, at least do it right)

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by hhmoore
I mentioned earlier that i had, at one time, kept a few devenomized snakes. One of them, a gaboon viper, died at approximately 16 months of age because his digestive system failed. The rat just sat there and began to rot inside him. he looked pretty normal for about 3 days, then began to swell. The swelling increased daily, and by day 6 he began to stink of decomposing flesh (ever smelled a rat that has been shoved into the warm part of the cage and left overnite, or a 2 day post-feeding regurg? nothing in comparison to this). The stench permeated first the room, then the whole floor of the house. 2-3 days later, his color changed to a sickening greenish/grey and black fluid began to ooze out of his mouth when he moved. He died a day or two later. (my vet, who ordinarily doesn't do hots, was out of town...and I couldn't get another to even see it) It was truly an awful thing to behold.

Response by dennis
That would be terrible,But couldnt it have been a number of things that caused this? Did you vet do a necropsy and tell you thats was why?

It wasn't necessary, the putrefaction of prey due to slowed digestion is, or was at the time, known to be a problem with 'voids. I had the gaboon at low-mid normal temps when the swelling began (right where he had been since the beginning of his time with me, due to several regurges at slightly higher temps) , and increased it to mid-high normal when it was obvious what was happening (only a few hours after the swelling was noted). I was honestly hesitant to raise the temps at all, because my initial fear was that the rat would rot before he could digest it. My thoughts then turned to "oh crap, what if he tries to puke". I would happily have dealt with the consequences if it would have saved him...but as the process continued, it was obvious that if he regurged that thing, he would likely die in the process.

crotalusadamanteus

09-08-2005, 07:42 AM

This is actually getting somewhere. :)

I've only ever found one site (unfortunately, I've lost it :hot: ) that shows any "definative proof", that venomous snakes "need" that venom. Speaking primarily of Hemotoxic venoms here. It has been shown that some of your highly Neurotoxic venoms contain little or no evidence of the phospholipase A2 enzymes (pla2). I have however, found more sites to support this belief, than sites that discount it.

Was talking with Brian Smith over the weekend just past, (trying to find that lost article :hot: ) and he is co-authoring an article on this very same subject. It will be out soon, and I'm sure He will let it be known on the forums when it is finalized.

Here is My theory on this subject..........
Ever since time the animal world has "evolved" to adapt for specific needs. Fish grew lungs, snakes lost their legs, chameleons are able to camoflauge, some venoms travel faster than your blood does,(via nerve cells) Etc, Etc, Etc.
I believe the PLA2 enzyme (the main part of this necrosis) is part of this evolution. Evolved to help "aid" in digestion (for whatever reasons). Knowing that most evolution occurs do to "necessity" for survival, I would tend to believe that it is a necessity. I don't believe the animal world evolves for NO reason. Nature is just that way.

But as suggested, it would take many long term studies to prove this. Like two litter mates, one voided, and one natural, and study them intently in order to prove this. I believe the voided one will not live as long a life, nor reach it's maximum potential size, maybe even some health problems depending on idividual species.

There are many things that support that other side also. Most of that so called proof has involved snakes that are primarily neurotoxic. IMO the ones who carry primarily neuro's never had a need to evolve those necrotic properties in their venom. Else they would adapt, or evolve, to overcome the problem.

But hey, I COULD be wrong. I'm no doctor. Not a scientist either. I'm just a dumb OPHIOPHILIAC who has been interested in venom, and venomous things for a long time. I've read as much as I could about them.
But someone would have to "prove" me wrong, and by so doing, will answer all of our questions. LOL

Micro chipping..........No harm done. My albino has one. had it for 4 years. I paid alot for her in 99, and thought it worth the extra $120. She never did show any ill effects. My last two Pitts had them also, and me Mastino that my X managed to steal in the divorce.

hhmoore,
Great post's. Spoken with intelligence, and some unfortunate experience. I enjoyed reading those.

Ciao,
Rick

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 08:58 AM

hhmoore,
Great post's. Spoken with intelligence, and some unfortunate experience. I enjoyed reading those.
Ciao,
Rick
Thanks, it's been awhile since I actually seriously got into that discussion. But once the button was pushed :>poke2<: it started coming back to me. :rofl: Where's Gregg when we need him? (I think I'll drop him a line, invite him to the party)

Dennis1

09-08-2005, 10:43 AM

I never said inbreeding only affected color. what I said was that the negative effects in morphs are (for the most part) the ones that are caused by inbreeding. breeding within that close a gene pool, in order to reproduce a color or pattern, results in problems...results in weaker animals with genetic defects. Perhaps I should have spelled it out more clearly in my previous post. my comment on the low survival rate in the wild was more of a side note, I apologize for the confusion it caused.
I was just trying to make the similarities

then don't have your animals chipped. simple enough. but look at it this way - maybe it isn't "money driven"...maybe it is following the money. with the prevalence of animal theft, and microchipping being proof positive that the animal belongs to you - if you've got a snake that is worth several thousand dollars or more, don't you think it would be worth it to be able to verify ownership.
I wont do it and i wouldnt mind if others do

regardless of what you believe, the veterinarians that perform this surgery are few and far between. The first person I knew that did this was not a vet, and he performed the procedure in his home. keep in mind this was about 15 years ago. I have since encountered one other person that I know performed the procedure in his basement, and a person that claimed he devenomized snakes himself. I don't know for certain if it was true, but it was a statement that he made TO ME when I asked who devenomized a snake he was offering for sale locally (knowing what I know about this person, and the number of 'voids he offered, I was willing to believe).
I cant argue with your logic
If someone is doing this in their garage or basment or just unsanitary conditions then they are wrong if its a trained professonal in sanitary conditions then who knows

As for taking your pet to bubba's garage for surgery, most people that have 'voids buy them that way. WHY? because they don't have the skills to care for an intact hot, even for as long as it would take to get it to a vet for surgery...not that most people could find a vet in their area to perform the surgery anyway. that point made, I commend them for recognizing this; as the last thing this hobby needs is even more negative press, and stupid people being bitten by snakes they shouldn't have...that is how all the legislation starts.
I was thinking about getting an albino monocled and if i were to get it devenomized (Not saying i will...lol)then i wouldn't be because of lacking skill it would be an extra precaution for those unforeseen circumstances
When they breed what happens to the babies?

I hope I'm not going to be misunderstood in this matter
I just want to make it clear that i am not a Genius ..lol and never had a venomoid, I am still undecided as no one gave me proof that it is detrimental to the snakes health and if someone gave me definite proof i would then be decided against it!

hhmoore

09-08-2005, 01:42 PM

When they breed what happens to the babies?

I hope I'm not going to be misunderstood in this matter
I just want to make it clear that i am not a Genius ..lol and never had a venomoid, I am still undecided as no one gave me proof that it is detrimental to the snakes health and if someone gave me definite proof i would then be decided against it!
I'm not misunderstanding, but I obviously don't have the "proof" you seek. Admittedly, I have been out of the venomous sector for some time now, and haven't kept up with the research and who's doing what...but my feelings on the subject are obviously unchanged. You are obviously free to do what you like. If you opt for a 'void, do some research on the seller...particularly who does the surgery. Get paperwork signed by the vet that performed the procedure (that clearly states they performed the procedure...not just that the snake is devenomized), but treat it as if it was hot anyway. Keep it well, and keep it safely. Don't let either of you become statistics.

As for what happens to the babies - you either keep them and raise them, or you sell them. Seriously, If you are asking what I think you are asking :no01:, the babies WILL be venomous...the change to the animals is physical, not genetic, so their offspring will be intact (think of dogs with cropped ears...the babies come out with big floppies)

Dennis1

09-08-2005, 07:05 PM

I'm not misunderstanding, but I obviously don't have the "proof" you seek. Admittedly, I have been out of the venomous sector for some time now, and haven't kept up with the research and who's doing what...but my feelings on the subject are obviously unchanged. You are obviously free to do what you like. If you opt for a 'void, do some research on the seller...particularly who does the surgery. Get paperwork signed by the vet that performed the procedure (that clearly states they performed the procedure...not just that the snake is devenomized), but treat it as if it was hot anyway. Keep it well, and keep it safely. Don't let either of you become statistics.
I dont want one untill they get that hypothetical medicine...lol
But that doesnt make me against them

As for what happens to the babies - you either keep them and raise them, or you sell them. Seriously, If you are asking what I think you are asking :no01:, the babies WILL be venomous...the change to the animals is physical, not genetic, so their offspring will be intact (think of dogs with cropped ears...the babies come out with big floppies)
LOL... that was real funny^^^
If the venomoids have babies it would make sense to go look for a vet to perform the surgery if they dont have the "skills" necessary to handle hots?

cthulhu77

09-08-2005, 09:17 PM

No, no, and NO again !!! It seems horribly irresponsible to me to have animals that have to be surgically altered, just to maintain them.
Perhaps we should draw out the teeth of Lions in the zoo ??? Cut off the arms of the Orang-Utans ? Ridiculous.
When you learn how to handle a venomous snake, it is no longer a danger...just don't slip up. (or down, as the case may be.)

greg

Gregg M

09-10-2005, 11:59 AM

Hello everyone....

To answer the original question, I ofcorse have to say NO!!! For me, there is nothing to ponder..... When I got into keeping hots, I never even thought about ever altering them to make them "safe"..... The way to keep them safely is to aquire knowledge and experiance in safe handling and housing..... No need to rip into an animals head if you follow proper protocol..... Apparently, people who are into voids are too lazy and are lacking the knowledge and experiance to keep these animals safely.... I have been keeping venomous species for 12 years and have not been bitten.... I dont plan on getting bitten but I plan for it...... Meaning I have the proper protocol and AV on hand just incase.....

I do not believe in that old saying "its not if you get tagged, its when you get tagged".... I happen to believe if you are careful enough and experianced enough you can keep these creatures relatively safely.....

On to few thing I read in the thread.....

First thing I want to touch on is the de-scenting thing..... I will not keep ferrets because I think they stink..... If you cant deal with them the way they are, you should not keep them.....

I would never de-claw a cat or crop a dogs ears.... I have a cat and she is full of claws.... If I was not able to deal with her clawing the sofa, I would have never gotten her....

So what I am saying is, if you cant keep a fully intact venomous species, you should stick to the naturally non-venomous species.....

I am not too sure what micro chipping or morphs have to do with this thread..... But here are my thoughts....

Microchipping is fine with me..... Nothing wrong with protecting you investments.....

Morphs are a part of nature.... Like it or not, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in wild populations.... Especially isolated ones..... There are even such things as locality spacific recessive morphs..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant morph in a spacific local..... Inbreeding is tabboo in human populations..... Nature does not follow our religions or go by our ethics.... Venomous snakes do not have their venom glands ripped out of their head in nature.... The few venomous snakes that might be born without the proper delivery system will die from starvation.....

It has also been proven that venomous snakes need their venom to properly digest their food to a certain extent.... It is not need to digest the food, but it is need to advance the process especially in vipers.... Ever wonder why some venomous snakes venom is so necrotic??? If you are bitten by a gaboon or puff, you will lose a massive amout of tissue in a very short period of time....

Take gaboons for example.... They have very slow motabolisms and live in cool, humid jungles.... In the wild, I am certain that their venom plays a big roll in their digestion.... Sure, you can void one and turn up the heat in its enclosure, but you will be doing damage to the animal in two ways.... First you are cutting its head open to take out the glands.... Second you are seriously stressing the snake out by turning up the heat.... They evolved to live and thrive in a certain temp range (high 70s low 80s) and you would be taking that from them as well.... That in itself is enough to shorten their life span considerably..... So is heating up the voided snake the answer or is not voiding them in the first place the answer???? I will go with not voiding them....

You can see what type of people are into voids just by looking on this BOI....

Uneducated
Ignorant
Inexperianced
Untrustworthy
And a few other choice words that I cant say here....LOL

There are only about two or three vets around that I know of that will do a void job.....

90% of what you see for sale on the classifieds are done by inexperiance, unlicensed individuals that could care less about the animals.... They just want the cash.... It does not matter to them how many snakes the kill in order to get one void to live.....

Jim O

09-10-2005, 01:49 PM

Gregg,

Once again you did an excellent job of posting your opinion which is consistent with my thoughts and feelings as well.

A few questions come to mind and by no means am I trying to dispute what you said, but more to provide food for thought.

To sum up, you say you are opposed to altering animals to suit a keeper's needs. Is your cat spayed/neutered? Are you opposed to such procedures? The real reason most keepers neuter male cats is not so they will not reproduce, at least not indoor cats, but rather so they will not pick up the annoying habit of spraying the house. Similarly, most keepers of indoor cats do not want their kitties going into heat and crying out all night looking for a male. Now I know there are some potential health benefits to such procedures, but for that argument to hold, we should all get "neutered" after having any children that we want to have so as to avoid prostate enlargement and cancer, and reduce our risk of coronary disease. Any takers? :rofl: Similarly, maybe we should have out wives and girlfriends "spayed" to prevent ovarian and uterine cancer, and to reduce the risks of breast cancer. Given a choice between my salivary glands and my gonads, I know which I'd choose to keep.

All that said, I am opposed to creating venomoids for most of the same reasons that you are. The procedures are generally performed by unqualified individuals and have terrible results. And keeping a venomoid is like keeping a gun that is unloaded...or so you think it is. I don't *play* with unloaded guns, and I don't *play* with venomous animals.

My other questions concern Helodermatidae. These are the only venomous animals that I keep, and they would never be voided, but the best science that I have read is that their venom is only used for defensive purposes. So the biological need is not there in captivity. They are easy to handle safely with proper precautions and so if someone wanted to risk putting a $1000 animal through unnecessary surgery, crazy as it might be, it likely would have no adverse biological effect. I would never expose an animal to that risk. Nor would I want my animals disfigured just for that purpose.

My main objections to removing the venom system in any reptile is the same as yours. If you are not qualified to handle a "hot" animal then there are other choices. If zoos kept a few voids around for teaching purposes (that is to teach safe handling of venomous animals to prospective owners) I could see that as a legitimate use of such animals. Of course that assumes that they acquired the animals as rescues and did not create them solely for that purpose. In order to get a CWP in Virginia one has to take a handgun safety course. We were "taught" with unloaded weapons until we went into the firing range. My pistol, however, is always loaded except when I have just been shooting (at the range) or when I am cleaning it.

Gregg M

09-10-2005, 02:44 PM

Jim I wish I had the answer for everything but I am only human....LOL I will try to answer your questions the best I can....

My cat is fixed or broken.... How ever you want to look at it.... She was fixed before I got her but I do believe in that particular operation....

1) it is alway done by a licensed vet....
2) it keeps a bunch of kittens or puppies from being born that can not get homes and are either let loose on the streets or killed because there is no more room at the shelters....
3) it does lengthen the animals life span and cats and dogs that are fixed are healthier....

As far as Heloderms go, they are not my forte but I do know a little about them and have read that their venom is used primarily for defence.... No matter what the venom is used for, I cant see cutting one open to lower the risk factor..... You lower the risk factor considerably by getting proper training, knowledge, and experience.... I would still be opposed to the operation even if they do not use venom for digestion..... Just think how funny a gila would look without is venom glands....LOL Look at what venomoid gaboons look like.... It kind of reminds me of a deflated balloon....

Like you Jim, my 9mm is always loaded.... The only time it cant be loaded is on the way to and from the range.... I don't have a carriers permit....LOL Which is a good thing because there are a lot of a-holes on the road where I live....LOL

My snakes however, are loaded 24/7 and I would not have it any other way....

Dennis1

09-10-2005, 09:25 PM

I am not too sure what micro chipping or morphs have to do with this thread.....

I brought that up because they are both surgeries(microchipping & devenom..)

Morphs are a part of nature.... Like it or not, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in wild populations.... Especially isolated ones..... There are even such things as locality spacific recessive morphs..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant morph in a spacific local..... Inbreeding is tabboo in human populations..... Nature does not follow our religions or go by our ethics.... Venomous snakes do not have their venom glands ripped out of their head in nature.... The few venomous snakes that might be born without the proper delivery system will die from starvation.....
Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol
Seriously though im sure there is inbreeding in nature somewhere but We can probably contribute that to man or major catastrophy

It has also been proven that venomous snakes need their venom to properly digest their food to a certain extent.... It is not need to digest the food, but it is need to advance the process especially in vipers.... Ever wonder why some venomous snakes venom is so necrotic??? If you are bitten by a gaboon or puff, you will lose a massive amout of tissue in a very short period of time....
I am not saying you are wrong but where can i find the proof?

You can see what type of people are into voids just by looking on this BOI....

Uneducated
Ignorant
Inexperianced
Untrustworthy
And a few other choice words that I cant say here....LOL
Im not sure if this is directed at me? But if it is i would like to keep this civil
I came here looking for information but have yet to find it

Gregg M

09-10-2005, 10:35 PM

Dennis, nothing in either of my post was directed at you.... If you do not produce or keep voids I have no problem with you.... LOL

Microchipping is not an evasive surgery like void operations.... Microchips are injected under the skin..... There is a HUGE difference....

There is plenty of proof out there for you to find about snake venom aiding in digestion.... Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom??? Tell you what, I will do a bit of digging for you and post the info even though you should be doing it yourself.....

As far as inbreeding goes in reptile populations goes, it has been going on before man and continues to this day..... Man has nothing to do with inbreeding in reptile populations..... Populations are separated by natural causes..... There are small island populations, populations in valleys, populations separated by other land formations and so on.... How do you think subspecies are formed??? Tell me something.... How do you think all of these recessive morphs came about??? These are genetics that are from wild caught animals..... For example Tremper albino leos cam from wild caught animals that were 100% het for albino.... How do you think 100% hets come about??? There are obviously albinos in the wild that are thriving at least to breeding age..... There are many examples of adult albino reptiles caught in the wild.....

Inbreeding in nature happens alot more than you obviously think.... Infact, in some areas it is quite common..... There are many examples of recessive genetics taking over the wild type genetics in isolated populations..... For whatever reason the recessive morph worked out better than the wild type..... In order for this to happen, there has to be more than just a little bit of inbreeding going on..... Like I said, nature does not go by our moral code or our religions.....

I have a question, do you believe in evolution or creation???? If you believe in evolution, you must know that there had to be alot of inbreeding going on in order for us to have evolved the way we did.... And if you believe in creation, than you must know that there had to be inbreeding going on if our existence started with only one man and one woman..... I happen to lean on the evolution side of things... Inbreeding is a natural part of nature wether you like it or not......

hhmoore

09-10-2005, 10:40 PM

I brought that up because they are both surgeries(microchipping & devenom..)
comparing microchipping to getting one's ears pierced would be much closer.

Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lol
Seriously though im sure there is inbreeding in nature somewhere but We can probably contribute that to man or major catastrophy
exactly where do you think the majority of morphs come from?? wild populations. you think that breeders tossed in some magic dust to make the first albinos - they were imported. yes, some of the "designer" morphs came by mixing and matching various traits...something unlikely to have the time to occur in nature because of the way they stand out (see one of my first posts on this thread).

I came here looking for information but have yet to find it
with all due respect, you've been given a lot of information...just because it isn't in the form you seek, doesn't negate the facts. you can discount it all because all the scientific studies were not quoted and linked - that is your choice. I did a lot of investigation on this subject years ago, the information is out there. I managed to find it; I'm sure you could to. If you are really interested.
I'm done here.

Clay Davenport

09-10-2005, 10:49 PM

Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom???

This is an excellent point. necrotic venom serves only to break down the tissue. To cause death solely from the breaking down of cell structure would either require large amounts of venom or extremely potent versions of it.
Neurotoxic venom is an extremely effecient killer, but causing death is it's purpose whereas hemotoxic venom serves as a pre-digestive component.
If the only benefit venom offered to the snake was to procure the prey effeciently, then neurotoxic venom would be all that is needed. The existance of hemotoxic venom and it's primary purpose being cell destruction is significant evidence in itself that it is a definate benefit to the snake.

You can want deifnitive studies on the effects of devenomizing on longevity and health but they simply aren't there, and in all probability there will never be anything beyond anecdotal evidence on the subject.
At some point you just have to look at the whole picture and add some common sense and make an educated assumption.
If you approach the topic with an unbiased point of view, then it becomes obvious that there's much more probability that they need their venom than there is that they operate equally as well without it.

Dennis1

09-10-2005, 11:17 PM

Dennis, nothing in either of my post was directed at you.... If you do not produce or keep voids I have no problem with you.... LOL
Cool but i would like to get one geneticly engineered to be venomless...j/k

Microchipping is not an evasive surgery like void operations.... Microchips are injected under the skin..... There is a HUGE difference....
Im not a doctor so i will have to take your word for it, I was just curious if there is any rejection going on?

There is plenty of proof out there for you to find about snake venom aiding in digestion.... Plus all you need to do is use a little common sense.... Why else would most vipers have such necrotic venom??? Tell you what, I will do a bit of digging for you and post the info even though you should be doing it yourself.....
I definetly would if i knew where to look

As far as inbreeding goes in reptile populations goes, it has been going on before man and continues to this day..... Man has nothing to do with inbreeding in reptile populations..... Populations are separated by natural causes..... There are small island populations, populations in valleys, populations separated by other land formations and so on.... Tell me something.... How do you think all of these recessive morphs can about??? These are genetics that are from wild caught animals..... For example Tremper albino leos cam from wild caught animals that were 100% het for albino.... How do you think 100% hets come about??? There are obviously albinos in the wild that are thriving at least to breeding age..... There are many examples of adult albino reptiles caught in the wild.....
Im not sure but i would say that a morph is a mutation?
Yeah im sure there are albinos born in the wild Which makes my point
Most dont survive to adulthood in the wild because they are inferior if they werent then you would see populations of them.

Inbreeding in nature happens alot more than you obviously think.... Infact, in some areas it is quite common..... There are many examples of recessive genetics taking over the wild type genetics in isolated populations..... For whatever reason the recessive morph worked out better than the wild type..... In order for this to happen, there has to be more than just a little bit of inbreeding going on..... Like I said, nature does not go by our moral code or our religions.....
Dont get me wrong, I dont think all morphs are inferior but the one that we breed in our aquariums cages and in sweater boxes nor their offspring are never going to survive in the wild for long they will either be assimilated or killed.

I have a question, do you believe in evolution or creation???? If you believe in evolution, you must know that there had to be alot of inbreeding going on in order for us to have evolved the way we did.... And if you believe in creation, than you must know that there had to be inbreeding going on if our existence started with only one man and one woman..... I happen to lean on the evolution side of things... Inbreeding is a natural part of nature wether you like it or not......
Inbreeding in populations is not the same as inbreeding in family's
Hey its legal to marry your second cousin...lol
I was brought up a southern Baptist so i guess i would fall under the creationist catergory
I believe there is a higher power at work and when we try to mimic it we fall just a little short... But it is so much fun...lol

I'm glad we can have a pleasent conversation without anyone attacking eachother,As sometimes i have a hard time writing what i mean
I could talk all the time about genetics,I find it very interesting to say the least
I wish spellcheck could arrange my sentences and place all the . , ' " in the right places...lol

Dennis1

09-10-2005, 11:27 PM

This is an excellent point. necrotic venom serves only to break down the tissue. To cause death solely from the breaking down of cell structure would either require large amounts of venom or extremely potent versions of it.
Neurotoxic venom is an extremely effecient killer, but causing death is it's purpose whereas hemotoxic venom serves as a pre-digestive component.
If the only benefit venom offered to the snake was to procure the prey effeciently, then neurotoxic venom would be all that is needed. The existance of hemotoxic venom and it's primary purpose being cell destruction is significant evidence in itself that it is a definate benefit to the snake.

You can want deifnitive studies on the effects of devenomizing on longevity and health but they simply aren't there, and in all probability there will never be anything beyond anecdotal evidence on the subject.
At some point you just have to look at the whole picture and add some common sense and make an educated assumption.
If you approach the topic with an unbiased point of view, then it becomes obvious that there's much more probability that they need their venom than there is that they operate equally as well without it.
Why?
And what kind of venom does a monacled cobra have?
I havent heard any facts either way how can i make an educated oppinion without any education on the subject?

Dennis1

09-10-2005, 11:38 PM

comparing microchipping to getting one's ears pierced would be much closer.
I wasnt sure if it was good for the snake or not

exactly where do you think the majority of morphs come from?? wild populations. you think that breeders tossed in some magic dust to make the first albinos - they were imported. yes, some of the "designer" morphs came by mixing and matching various traits...something unlikely to have the time to occur in nature because of the way they stand out (see one of my first posts on this thread).
I'll take a pound of magic dust...lol
the point is not where they come from whether it be random mutations or some exceptions to the rule the point is they are inferior and the more we breed the desired traits the more we breed undesired traits which has been proven time and again in dogs, cats, fish,etc...

Clay Davenport

09-10-2005, 11:51 PM

And what kind of venom does a monacled cobra have?

Monocled cobras as with virtually if not all hots posess a combination venom. Their venom is comprised of both neurotoxic and hemotoxic compounds and a bit does cause necrosis.
Venom is an extremely complex substance, and no venom is exclusively any one thing, it is a mixture of various proteins with varying effects.
The elapid family has venom which is primarily neurotoxic, but it is far from without hemotoxic compounds. The reverse can be said of many viperids which have a primarily hemotoxic venom, with additional neurotoxic properties..

hhmoore

09-10-2005, 11:54 PM

Gregg - looks like you were finishing your post as I was starting mine...thanks for joining the party.
Dennis, you keep saying that you are here looking for information; but when you are given information, you say that you keep hearing it, but noone has shown you proof. The first step to acquiring knowledge is being open to information. Now, do you want to be taught? Or do you want to learn? If you want to be taught, again, you must be open to receiving information...AND you must make the decision to accept some of what you are told. If, instead, you want to learn, you must take on some of the responsibility. You have been given a good platform to start from - pick the pieces you want more information on and do some looking.

As far as morphs being mutations - some are are. others would be closer related to varying skin pigmentation. are the various races of humans "mutations" because they have different colored skin?? Also, the fact that there are fewer adult morphs in the wild is not due largely to an inherent weakness, as you suggest. Think about the reason that snakes have the cryptic patterns and concealing colors - so they can blend in with their environments. A bright white and yellow BP would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb on the jungle floor. This not only enables predators to locate them, but makes them more visible to potential prey animals also. Another piece of that puzzle is that they are more visible to collectors. Abberant colored specimens bring more money so they will be snatched up.
If, in fact, they were too weak to mature and reproduce (as you have implied), why does it happen in captivity. Sure there are some problems in some of the populations, but look at how they happen...most often, a single specimen starts everything. it is raised and bred, then its offspring are raised and bred back to it (and to each other). when a specific morph is in demand, those that are focused on the money are less concerned with outbreeding to keep the bloodlines strong - that takes too much time and planning. to maximize their return, they get a pair (siblings are fine for their purpose) and start breeding. They hold a few of the babies back, and throw them into the breeding pool. After the first few generations, the problematic mutations start popping up (eye problems are very common - from the bug-eyed leucistic texas ratsnakes to eyeless albino burms and boas).
guess you got lucky - duty calls, so i have to stop here

Dennis1

09-11-2005, 02:17 AM

Gregg - looks like you were finishing your post as I was starting mine...thanks for joining the party.
Dennis, you keep saying that you are here looking for information; but when you are given information, you say that you keep hearing it, but noone has shown you proof. The first step to acquiring knowledge is being open to information. Now, do you want to be taught? Or do you want to learn? If you want to be taught, again, you must be open to receiving information...AND you must make the decision to accept some of what you are told. If, instead, you want to learn, you must take on some of the responsibility. You have been given a good platform to start from - pick the pieces you want more information on and do some looking.
I would like to learn
I have a hard time putting my thoughts on screen evidentialy
Im pretty much saying where do i look? If and when i find the info i would gladly post it here for the others who may be asking the same question

As far as morphs being mutations - some are are. others would be closer related to varying skin pigmentation. are the various races of humans "mutations" because they have different colored skin?? Also, the fact that there are fewer adult morphs in the wild is not due largely to an inherent weakness, as you suggest. Think about the reason that snakes have the cryptic patterns and concealing colors - so they can blend in with their environments. A bright white and yellow BP would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb on the jungle floor. This not only enables predators to locate them, but makes them more visible to potential prey animals also. Another piece of that puzzle is that they are more visible to collectors. Abberant colored specimens bring more money so they will be snatched up.
If, in fact, they were too weak to mature and reproduce (as you have implied), why does it happen in captivity. Sure there are some problems in some of the populations, but look at how they happen...most often, a single specimen starts everything. it is raised and bred, then its offspring are raised and bred back to it (and to each other). when a specific morph is in demand, those that are focused on the money are less concerned with outbreeding to keep the bloodlines strong - that takes too much time and planning. to maximize their return, they get a pair (siblings are fine for their purpose) and start breeding. They hold a few of the babies back, and throw them into the breeding pool. After the first few generations, the problematic mutations start popping up (eye problems are very common - from the bug-eyed leucistic texas ratsnakes to eyeless albino burms and boas).
guess you got lucky - duty calls, so i have to stop here
Im just saying that when we strenghten the good traits we are most likely strengthening the bad as well, Doing this blindly and when money is involved is not going to help the snakes i have seen this happen in fish also

Its comes down to Whats an acceptable practice on snakes and whats not and alot of the time money is the deciding vote
We can descent,declaw,denut...lol, microchip, inbreed keep them in drawers for most of their lives send them in the mail import them and watch them die by the dozens if not hundreds subject them to all kinds of stress that they would never be subjected to in the wild
But cant devonomize them?
Makes me wonder

hhmoore

09-11-2005, 02:47 AM

It seems like you need basic info first, so I'll toss you a few links. Keep in mind this is just the tip of the iceberg - there is ALOT of info available
http://reptilis.net/serpentes/venom.html
http://faculty.etsu.edu/currie/venom.htm
http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_713.html
http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pngsmc/Chapter%203%20Composition%20of%20PNG%20Snake%20Ven oms.pdf#search='venom%20digestion'
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/agcomm/magazine/winter02/zero.htm

That should be enough to get you started

Karen Hulvey

09-11-2005, 03:06 AM

Tell me where to find an Albino or Pied population I'll be on the next plane...lolHere ya go. Please send us a postcard and take lots of pictures from your trip. :dgrin:
Historically, piebald ball pythons have been recorded as early as 1966. Approximately 100 miles inland from Accra, Ghana, villagers found and killed a large male specimen measuring 118 centimeters. Further findings of piebalds could not be found until the early 1980s when Tyron Dillon of California Zoological Supply brought in two adult animals, also from Ghana.
Text from THIS SITE (http://www.pkreptiles.com/informationterms/articles/piebaldballpythons.asp)

A WC albino is also from Ghana.
In 1989, I became aware of the possibility of the existence of an amelanistic ball python (Python regius). My friend Olaf Pronk, then of The Hague, Netherlands, had received word via Telex, that the snake had been captured in Ghana. In May of that year, I received the snake, a young male about 26 inches long. It was bright lemon yellow and clean white.
Text from This SITE (http://www.bobclark.com/d_learn.asp?id=39&cat=learn)

I only visited two well known ball breeders' sites to get this information. I wonder how many more WC albinos & pieds there are from all the other huge breeders out there???

Dennis1

09-11-2005, 04:54 AM

Here ya go. Please send us a postcard and take lots of pictures from your trip. :dgrin:
Historically, piebald ball pythons have been recorded as early as 1966. Approximately 100 miles inland from Accra, Ghana, villagers found and killed a large male specimen measuring 118 centimeters. Further findings of piebalds could not be found until the early 1980s when Tyron Dillon of California Zoological Supply brought in two adult animals, also from Ghana.
Text from THIS SITE (http://www.pkreptiles.com/informationterms/articles/piebaldballpythons.asp)

A WC albino is also from Ghana.
In 1989, I became aware of the possibility of the existence of an amelanistic ball python (Python regius). My friend Olaf Pronk, then of The Hague, Netherlands, had received word via Telex, that the snake had been captured in Ghana. In May of that year, I received the snake, a young male about 26 inches long. It was bright lemon yellow and clean white.
Text from This SITE (http://www.bobclark.com/d_learn.asp?id=39&cat=learn)

I only visited two well known ball breeders' sites to get this information. I wonder how many more WC albinos & pieds there are from all the other huge breeders out there???
Not very many
Anyhow i asked for populations,It would be pretty stupid of me to spend all that money to travel to africa and pay for the permits(if i could even get 1)
Airfare and acomodations for 1 or 2 if i could even find one that when i can just get one from a breeder
good try though
There are no pied or albino populations in africa
very very few of them reach adulthood in the wild
I wish there were i could take a vacation and make some money at the same time

crotalusadamanteus

09-11-2005, 05:32 AM

Gregg M

09-11-2005, 08:37 AM

Dennis, just like you I need proof for alot of things in order to "buy" into it, but some things can just be put together with bits of info from various places.... I dont think you need to have one page of info to say exactly what you want to hear.... Thats the fun of doing research....

You are a cool dude Dennis, and your scentence structure is just fine and I understand what you are getting at with your posts.... You are just looking for answers to good questions..... Thats why this has stayed as civil as it has.... Plus we are all adults and frankly, I am sick of fighting about stuff that can be talked out in a good convo..... I used to like the fighting but I am now reformed....LOL

Thank you hhmoore for letting me know about this thread.... It is a very interesting one indeed....

Dennis1

09-11-2005, 12:04 PM

Dennis, just like you I need proof for alot of things in order to "buy" into it, but some things can just be put together with bits of info from various places.... I dont think you need to have one page of info to say exactly what you want to hear.... Thats the fun of doing research....
Thats just it i dont even know where to look to get factual information on this subject

You are a cool dude Dennis, and your scentence structure is just fine and I understand what you are getting at with your posts.... You are just looking for answers to good questions..... Thats why this has stayed as civil as it has.... Plus we are all adults and frankly, I am sick of fighting about stuff that can be talked out in a good convo..... I used to like the fighting but I am now reformed....LOL
LOL.. not many would agree with you at this moment
Like you i am a fighter and have a hard time running from a fight And i feel the need to keep it civil in most cases

crotalusadamanteus

09-11-2005, 12:54 PM

For me, used key words like "venom structure" "tissue destruction by venom" "purpose venomous enzyms" ect. ect. etc......A lot of links, if you look at the path below, will take you to Universities, where in some cases, students have published their thesus on this subject, or one closely related. Alot of stuff written by Post doctoral students, professors, etc.

You can usually tell if the site is worth the time to read it thoroughly. My problem is remembering to SAVE THE LINKS. LOL Then I get to search all over when the question arises again. :rolleyes:

Ciao,
Rick

Dennis1

09-19-2005, 07:56 PM

I don't really think you can accurately say there are no albino, or pied poulations in africa. Hets count in that population also. they look normal.
The ones that are here, came from there originally. I've been to C. Amer jungles, and S. Amer jungles, and finding Normal snakes, let alone morphs, is a lot more of a task than you might think. LOL Of corse, BP's don't come from jungles, but the savanahs, and wide open plains, and brushland that they do inhabit are so vast, that any number of morphs could go undetected by man for years and years.

Take a look at the Hogg Island boa. A very "locality specific" natural hypo type, (maybe not a morph literally) but an isolated population of a BCI that looks other than normal. As another example.
Sounds good

But back to venom.
I think you may be looking for that burning bush. Like proof there is a god. All you can really do is read as much as you can on the subject, with an open mind, and use the best evidence at hand for your conclusions. Like I said earlier, I don't think things evolve for "no reason". Venom is an evolutionary creation.
Ciao,
Rick
You will have no argument with me there
I always thought that the venom's main purpose is to incapacitate its prey
To say it that its has another function Like to aidin digestion could be correct
But that doesn't necessarily mean that the lack of venom is detrimental in a controlled environment
In this respect the only thing that could be wrong with a venomoid would be the complications due to surgery
So if there were a medicine that didnt have any side effects i would buy it...as long as it worked...lol
And they could charge Hundreds of dollars and get it...lol

crotalusadamanteus

09-19-2005, 09:05 PM

Well, Your right. It's MAIN purpose is to kill the prey. :)

If there was a medicine for such a thing, I would support it over the ductectomy, and removal of glands. But I do still say that safe handling of venomous reptiles can be learned. And even if it is a void, this same safe handling should be put into practice.

O.T. Have you been to one of the "round ups"? They get a few bites every year it seems. These guys call themselves pro's. I've never seen so much careless handling of rattlers before I went to one in clearwater TX.

BTW, how do you do two quotes in one response? I've had need of that before. LOL

Ciao,
Rick

Karen Hulvey

09-19-2005, 10:00 PM

That didn't work so well.

Trying again.

Type [/QUOTE] at the end of the text you wish to quote. Type [QUOTE=Karen] at the beginning of the text you wish to quote. You can leave off the = and the name of the person if you wish.

Dennis1

09-19-2005, 10:25 PM

*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus]Well, Your right. It's MAIN purpose is to kill the prey. :)

If there was a medicine for such a thing, I would support it over the ductectomy, and removal of glands. But I do still say that safe handling of venomous reptiles can be learned. And even if it is a void, this same safe handling should be put into practice.[/QUOTE]
I agree...That is to say i would definetly treat a venomoid as if it were hot

*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus]O.T. Have you been to one of the "round ups"? They get a few bites every year it seems. These guys call themselves pro's. I've never seen so much careless handling of rattlers before I went to one in clearwater TX.[/QUOTE]
Yeah But just goes to show Accidents can happen

*QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus] [BTW, how do you do two quotes in one response? I've had need of that before. LOL
Ciao,
Rick[/QUOTE]

I replaced "[" with"*" in this *QUOTE=crotalusadamanteus] to demonstrate

Dennis1

09-19-2005, 11:00 PM

I do this most of the time so the quotes arent taken out of Context

crotalusadamanteus

09-20-2005, 06:36 PM

Thanks Dennis, and Karen for that bit of info. Basically, you manually give it the command, insert the text, and end command.

As for them "pro's" (that was sarcasm BTW) that I saw in Clearwater, TX. I would call their careless handling the only reason I saw any bites. They had a race to see how many rattlers they could "speed/hand" capture and put into a bag, in X amount of time. In a plexi enclosure, on the their knees. Just plain STUPIDITY IMHO. That's the only time I can say I was glad that a person got tagged. But I doubt they learned anything from it. :rofl:

Ciao,
Rick

Dennis1

09-20-2005, 06:48 PM

Skunky

01-25-2006, 11:03 PM

I'm an absolute newbie to herping, so my $0.02 really isn't even worth that though. I must say, honestly, that some of the most beautiful snakes out there are hots (eg. Gaboon vipers, green mambas, copperheads). If these snakes were non-venomous, I know I'd look to have them in my collection any day..they're gorgeous -- and I'm sure some folk out there may or may not agree?

Not that I'm condoning anything, just my perspective. Take it for what it is.

Vinny D

04-27-2006, 11:08 PM

I would never use it. In my own opinion, i think if your going to have a venomous snake it should be venomous. If people have viods, they are going to hold them. And that is not respecting the animals. A venomous snake's natural history is their venom, why do people want to take that away? I dont know, but this was a very intresting thread. Thanks for reading.

Vinny

Vinny D

04-27-2006, 11:17 PM

DENNIS1, When i started on fauna it wasent pretty. A lot of back and fourth fighting, but why it all started was because i came off wrong to these guys. But they are really cool people with a lot of GREAT information to share and receive. So, dont worry about it. Beleve me i took a lot of hard core posts that i DID deserve. And so far everything has calmed down. And thats the way it should be, just simple herp talk lol.

ChuckHurd

05-11-2007, 07:37 PM

sometime back, i posed the questions, what is we could "breed" voids. for example a cane drops a littler and some of the off spring are born without venom glands. then from those we could breed a line of natural voids using line breeding, just as we do with albinos. seems most were opposed to that idea as well. seems that most who choose to work with venomous, do not want to alter their nature by any means.

devenomized

06-12-2007, 01:53 PM

After hearing about the possible issues with venomous snakes digesting food I'd have to say no myself. Hadn't really thought of that in the past and didn't know it was an issue.

It's not an issue on all snakes. Gaboons, Cobras, Crotalids, Mambas, and a much more have no issues. Those that "might" have issues, you will not see them sold as venomoids for two reasons A) they will die or B) 0 return on investment.

devenomized

06-12-2007, 02:09 PM

I've been too busy to keep track of what some adults and kids are saying about this topic here at Fauna. The discussion never seems to end, but the fact is simple. Venomoids will continue until nobody buys them.

There isn't a drug out there that will render a venomous snake nonvenomous and there isn't a venomoid gene. Nice way to start a flame fest about venomoids by introducing the hypothetical stuff.... very clever!

But i'll make you happy and respond: If there was such drug, the company behind its distribution will make a lot money. If this drug is available to any DVM and no law prohibits its application as a cosmetic procedure, people will begin scheduling visits to have their venomous snakes treated with this "drug". Now, if this drug becomes affordable, forget about it. You won't have hundreds of venomous reptile owners and herp enthusiasts interest in this new phenomenum, but THOUSANDS of people. Of course, you will always have the PETA lovers, the Animal activists, the Darwins and others as we've seen here that will debate this issue until there is no tomorrow, but the bottom line is that the drug will be a huge success assuming it does NOT get banned for "ethical issues".

Another interesting point will be to consider the cost of venomoids vs hots. Assuming you have a group of DVMs with several years of experience performing adenectomies and ductectomies to venomous snakes and they now would like to offer their services to reptile owners at no cost. How many venomous reptile owners or reptile enthusiasts WILL schedule the time to have their animals surgically altered if it won't cost anything to have this done by a licensed DVM? The known fact is that a venomous Gaboon will cost $85 at a reptile table, but the venomoid twin will cost about 3 to 4 times that amount. A $400 price tag may seem irrational for some people who were considering a venomoid, but if that price tags drops to only 100 bucks, what do you think will happen? What do you think will happen if venomoids are available at a reptile show for the same cost of venomous? Do you think other venomous reptile vendors will see a negative impact in their gross sales of venomous snakes? Think about it? Trust me. Here at fauna it may give the impression that reptile enthusiasts are all together and fighting against the minority of people who would consider venomoids, but the reality is that the real minority can only be found here discussing hyphotetical stuff.

Have a good day!

DEVENOMIZED.COM
... but we still got fangs!

devenomized

06-12-2007, 02:15 PM

If you are interested in debating or discussing this issue in person assuming you are an adult willing to accept different subjective opinions, I'm looking forwarding to meeting you at the next Hamburg show. Until then, feel free to contact me. Don't worry I don't bite, I've been devenomized.

DEVENOMIZED.COM
... but we still got fangs!

GQMedic

08-05-2007, 09:53 PM

Firstly, in the spirit of keeping things light, I will spell out my personal opinions and feelings about the subject.

1. I am not opposed to venomoids. The have their place.

2. I don't have any dislike for vets performing the procedure.

3. This hypothetical drug certainly bears it's merits.

4. I don't keep venomoids, I like my hots as hots.

5. I am not concerned about being envenomed as I do not (free)handle my hots AT ALL. I don't pet them, touch them, kiss them or sing silly love songs to them. If I go into any of my hots domiciles, I use a snake shield and a hook and I have a forceps and furniture tongs handy for any enclosure work and I keep a clear barrier between me and my hots. I shall not be bitten period, ever, that is my resolution and I'll do all things to prevent that.

6. I do not keep hots that I can not by my ability keep safely, utterly. I do not over-estimate my ability or under-estimate my hots ability to reach any part of me.

With number 5 in mind, I have no use for a venomoid or a hypothetical drug that will eliminate a snake's venom. My hots live in secure enclosures that offer me complete visibility so I can do what I like to do, watch "Hot snake TV".

I have pondered and this is what I've come up with. A part of my attraction to hot snakes is because they ARE hot. They are unique in the fact that you can't pick them up like a kitten, that they command a great level of respect, that such an animal is a small percentage of snakes that are kept by herpetoculturists / amateur herpetologists. A thing of beauty that is a rarity to be kept and observed closely. Why would I want to change that? It wouldn't have the luster and allure if rendered "safe".

I am fascinated to watch the venom work on a prey item before it is eaten by my hots. It really is something to be in awe of and difficult to describe to the point that "Not" keepers can't truly understand without becoming "Hot" keepers, and that limits learning. I am resolved to keep these magnificent animals whole that in keeping them, I grow to better understand them as time goes on, to sensibly manage inherent risk associated in doing so that I may enjoy them as they are.