Aptor / Raptor Debate

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Per Tremper's site...

non-albino "het" RAPTOR x non-albino "het" RAPTOR
non-albino "het" RAPTOR x Albino "het" RAPTOR
ECLIPSE het albino x non-albino "het" for RAPTOR
ECLIPSE het for albino x Albino "het" RAPTOR

will all produce RAPTORs in one way or another...

The last two crosses, hints very strongly that the RAPTOR is not a simple recessive mutation. HOWEVER, further down on that same page, he states that RAPTOR is actually the albino version of the ECLIPSE mutation.

In all technicality, how can it be possible to be het RAPTOR? If you break down his description, it is basically a red-eyed, patternless, tangerine. Tangerine is NOT a recessive mutation. The new patternless gene very well may be...He is also unsure whether or not the "red-eye" aka ECLIPSE is recessive...Also, if a particular gecko is Albino, it cannot be het Albino too (or is this being thrown around like some individuals with cornsnakes saying their Amels are het Snow :ack2: ).

So maybe het RAPTOR is incorrect, and it should technically be het TREMPER PATTERNLESS from ECLIPSE lines (at least until the ECLIPSE mutation is proven)?

He also states "It is not known at this time if R.A.P.T.O.R. times R.A.P.T.O.R. results in 100% pure R.A.P.T.O.R.s or if you get 50% R.A.P.T.O.R.s and 50% snake-eyed R.A.P.T.O.R.s."

RAPTOR x RAPTOR must produce 100% "pure" RAPTOR to be a simple recessive mutation (thus making it possible to be het). But that line in itself contradicts itself, because he is speaking as if RAPTOR is alone a single mutation involving only the ECLIPSE/SNAKE-EYE mutations, when in fact, that's not what he states it stands for at the beginning of the page.

Pretty much all of this applies to APTORs minus the "red-eyed" or ECLIPSE mutation. :)

My main reason for bringing this up is to keep the LGR up to date. I was speaking with a member here privately, and he told me that RAPTOR has been proven recessive. I find, following the rules of genetics, that impossible.

If anyone would like to add to the discussion and enlighten me, please do so! :)

[The NY Gecko]

Before I join in I have to ask, why does Tremper not appear on these forums, the same goes for Craig from TUG. I havent seen them on here once, and yet theyre are 2 very very big names in this business. As far as RAPTORS go, well, I'm lost, c'est la vie mon ami.

[PaulSage]

I don't know, Stef... but as soon as the acronyms start including letters from non-English alphabets, I'm just going to call them yellow, orange, white, etc. :slamit:

[The NY Gecko]

I don't know, Stef... but as soon as the acronyms start including letters from non-English alphabets, I'm just going to call them yellow, orange, white, etc. :slamit: it means that is life my freind in french

[groovygeckos]

Het RAPTOR means Het Red Eyes, you are right you cant have Het Tang or CT. But noone ever said Het RAPTOR, means it is Het for each trait included in the acronym.:)

What else would APTOR Het for RAPTOR mean? Cant be Het APTOR, if it is one. Its the "R" part he is talking about. Het APTOR Het RAPTOR means nothing more than an APTOR, that is Het for Red Eyes.

[snared99]

I think part of the debate if will het RAPTOR/APTOR produce a APTOR or aRAPTOR. Like with the het act like a het. In many cases I have found this to be true, but what is everyone else finds when breeding this morph?

[groovygeckos]

About the eyes: it does not say that RAPTOR X RAPTOR will not produce 100% RAPTOR, it is IMO basically eluding to the fact not all of the RAPTORs will have solid eyes.

Snake Eyes and RAPTORs are 1 in the same. So if you breed 2 together, you should be able to get a mix of both. It is just variable, like the eyes of Blizzards. Not all RAPTORs have solid eyes, so the term "Snake Eyes" is used.

[groovygeckos]

All I know, is that many of the APTORs produced RAPTORs. I think everyone that bought females hatched them. I knew about the Red Eyed version before it was ever 'unveiled', had asked Ron if the APTORs were Hets. I was told there was a slight chance, and that the female we bought was NOT a Het. LOL

We bred our original APTOR to her, and hatched RAPTORs last year though. Go figure.

Waiting on eggs to be laid yet, from APTOR Het RAPTOR X Poss. Het RAPTOR, and Poss. Het RAPTOR X RAPTOR. So we will see.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Het RAPTOR means Het Red Eyes, you are right you cant have Het Tang or CT. But noone ever said Het RAPTOR, means it is Het for each trait included in the acronym.:)

What else would APTOR Het for RAPTOR mean? Cant be Het APTOR, if it is one. Its the "R" part he is talking about. Het APTOR Het RAPTOR means nothing more than an APTOR, that is Het for Red Eyes.

"Red-Eyes" is the albino form of the ECLIPSE muation. Thus in all technicality, it would be het ECLIPSE, not Red-Eyes or RAPTOR. This is what I've found incredibly misleading. By saying "het RAPTOR" one is implying that it is het for each trait in the acronym, and each trait is proven recessive. I'm a stickler for correct termonology when it comes to mutations. I'm sure I'm also not the only one that has questioned this.

APTOR "het" RAPTOR should actually be APTOR het ECLIPSE

Like my previous anology, it's like some individuals saying their corns are Amel het Snow, which is impossible considering Snow is Amel + Anery and the Amel is already expressing that mutation.

[groovygeckos]

I know.... the 'terminology' for this morph is pretty messed up, I agree w/that. :)

A non-Albino het Eclipse, is called "Het ECLIPSE Het RAPTOR" if it is Het for Albino too. I guess since it can produce the Albino form.

The acronym is just a name to keep from typing out the same thing 500,000,000 times IMO. OR is not an acronym, and T is just for advertising his last name. LOL Just a catchy name, and nothing more really.



My 'Red Eyed Jungle Albino', is Rons 'Jungle RAPTOR', etc., etc. Well we know that a Jungle is not 'Patternless', if it is an Albino its not Het Albino, so on and so forth. If it is a normal,Het RAPTOR means Het Albino/Het Eclipse. If it is an Albino, it only means it is Het Eclipse. Its not really that big a deal to me, to get out my secret de-coder button. LOL

[diablohogs]

first off... stephanie from TME is my new hero.

what you caught on to is the fact that ron likes to call every little thing a mutation. giants were the same way. and he always talks as though they are recessive. het for this, het for that... i doubt he even knows what heterozygous means. it seems to be this catch all term he uses for "probably carries the genes for, whatever those genes might be."

i want a raptor or aptor or whatever but in my opinion the only simple recessive trait in these animals, phenotypically speaking, is tremper albino.

they still have great carrottail and nice color but carrying the solid red eyes trait to other morphs probably isnt going to happen. tremper cant even breed true the solid red eyes in his raptors, hense the snake eyes.

as far as the cornsnake thing, i see where your coming from but it makes alot more sense considering that both anery and albino are simple recessive traits in cornsnakes and snow is a double mutation consisting of both so an anery het for albino could be het for snow and an albino het for anery could as well. an albino that is het for both is "double het for snow".

it would be alot nicer if ron tremper would prove out his morphs before making claims about them because on paper his claims just don't add up.

[diablohogs]

awhile ago i posted a thread about trempers marketing. i feel it deals with the same issue.

click here (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68811) to check it out.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

first off... stephanie from TME is my new hero.

I'm very glad someone saw the point I was making. :) Thank you very much for you input!

I think it is extremely bad business practice to claim an animal to be "het" for a mutation when in fact all of the genetics behind the morph are not recessive. If the only part of the RAPTOR mutation that is recessive is the ECLIPSE and TREMPER ALBINO, it should be het ECLIPSE and TREMPER ALBINO, period. You cannot have het Tangerine; his new "Patternless" mutation is currently unproven (I'm sure that's in the works however, hopefully being done the right way by breeding a normal to RAPTOR, which Tremper should have done in the first place to prove out his mutation); their has been talk of the ECLIPSE being simple recessive (though Tremper himself says he's not sure - and considering the SNAKE-EYES is linked to the ECLIPSE, I wonder if it's not Co-Dom or incomplete Co-Dom).

A non-Albino het Eclipse, is called "Het ECLIPSE Het RAPTOR" if it is Het for Albino too.

But that would be wrong. It would be (if genetics terms were be used properly) Normal het ECLIPSE het TREMPER ALBINO.

In the end, my whole point of this is that if genetics termonology is to be used, it should be used properly.

[groovygeckos]

I know :) I saw your point too, but this has been brought up a ton. I know he is not even calling the "Patternless" recessive any longer. I have seen enough proof that no pattern, including APTOR-Patternless is recessive. As in you can breed two of the same together, and hatch out something different.

BTW "Het" does not only refer to a recessive trait. It can be used in the case of co-dominant traits also. Het Super Snow, Het Super Giant are acceptable in terms of "correct terminology". Check out "Serp widgets" webpage on corn genetics it is great.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I know who Charles is, I own both his 2005 and 2006 Cornsnake Morph Guides...However, I believe you are misinterpreting what he says.

Quoted from the CMG:

Heterozygous - Unalike alleles at a locus. It is mutually exclusive to homozygous.

Homozygous - Identical alleles at a locus. It is mutually exclusive to heterozygous.

Codominant - a relationship between two alleles where both are expressed when they are heterozygous together. When a codominant/codominant pair of alleles are shown in all three configurations, there are three resulting phenotypes.

Heterozygous does not affect a Codom specimen as the commonly used heterozygous for recessive does. A Dominant/Codominant allele is expressed when present regardless of its paired allele; while recessive alleles are not expressed unless their are identical alleles on the same locus. In other words, the "het" would be the Snow while the Super Snow would be the "homo." Saying "het Super Snow" is redundant.

[snared99]

I think more research should go into this topic before we fly off the hook. I myself have breed RAPTOR X TA and got all extremely nice TA's and am awaiting for the eggs to hatch from the het RAPTOR X RAPTOR and RAPTOR X APTOR. And I know alot of breeders who would consider a het aptor when bred to a aptor of another het to produce APTORS OR POSSIBLE RAPTORS. I think someone should really bring RT (Ron Tremper) into this discussion before we go and acuse him of things like not even knowing what het means. I mean he did write 2 books on leopard geckos. NOT saying he is the know all to leos but someone should get his opinion on this before jumping to conclusions. No one has done more RAPTOR/APTOR breeding then him.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Who is accusing whom of anything? Maybe you're referring to the other thread on RT?

My whole point is correctly labeling the mutation(s). het RAPTOR is obviously wrong. Tangerine and "Orange" are not recessive mutations. Tremper Albino of course is recessive, the ECLIPSE is showing to be possibly recessive, the Patternless is currently unknown.

What needs to be done is a RAPTOR x Normal (no APTOR/RAPTOR genes) to prove each suspected mutation (ECLIPSE and Patternless) out in the F2 generation.

[snared99]

Actually on the previous page of this post the was people accusing RT of not knowing what het means. My point is why dont we bring him on this, or atleast have someone email him to ask.

[diablohogs]

Actually on the previous page of this post the was people accusing RT of not knowing what het means.

that was me. and i did say probably.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

as far as the cornsnake thing, i see where your coming from but it makes alot more sense considering that both anery and albino are simple recessive traits in cornsnakes and snow is a double mutation consisting of both so an anery het for albino could be het for snow and an albino het for anery could as well. an albino that is het for both is "double het for snow".

I'm was trying to decipher what you were trying to say here regarding cornsnake genetics...But you've lost me...

Amel het Anery and Anery het Amel is simply that; it is not het Snow being that it already expresses half of what makes up the Snow mutation. A double het would be Normal het Amel, Anery. Amel nor Anery can be "double het" for Snow.

[groovygeckos]

Stephanie, I understood what you are saying 100%, but you seemed to have missed the point that noone ever said Het APTOR means Het for Tangerine, or every other trait involved. APTOR, is only a catchy name for "Patternless Albino".

RAPTOR, is fancy name for the red eyed version. Thats how I think of it anyways, Ill tell you, I dont expect Ron to change a thing. My own common sense (and I hope others) tells me if it is an Albino "Het APTOR" it is Het Patternless, not Het Albino and Patternless and ORange LOL :rolleyes: If someone believes in Het Tangs, Im sorry but I have a big brown het orange bridge I can sell them too. LOL J/K

Im not saying Ron is correct in his terminology. I am however saying it just might be, could be, probably is, for simplification reasons?

Would you like to type out Jungle Albino Het Patternless Het for Ruby Eyes all day long? In short it is Jungle het APTOR het RAPTOR, and hey it still includes the somewhat catchy name, which also includes his LAST NAME. :hehe: Im sure it has something to do with marketing, y`know.

[g&mgeckos]

:hehe: Im sure it has something to do with marketing, y`know.

I think it has alot to do with just that.


Steph I think you have made a very good point. It would be interesting to see what he had to say about it all.


Pat I have seem many threads on Ron that were......Lets just say not very favorable for him and he has never responsed to any that I am aware of. I think the man has done some great work with this species but some of the things he says and writes is questionable at best.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I have no issues with RT, this thread was not meant to bash RT or the APTOR/RAPTOR mutation. However, I would appreciate his input.

The point is, be honest with what your producing and selling. How can you say het RAPTOR when the genes that make the RAPTOR are unproven (outside the Tremper Albino and possibly the ECLIPSE) and some are line bred?

that noone ever said Het APTOR means Het for Tangerine, or every other trait involved. APTOR, is only a catchy name for "Patternless Albino".

But those that use het APTOR/RAPTOR are implying that is is het for every mutation involved. That is the whole point.

My own common sense (and I hope others) tells me if it is an Albino "Het APTOR" it is Het Patternless, not Het Albino and Patternless and ORange

What of someone new to the Leopard Gecko hobby? They would feel slighted that their "het RAPTOR" really isn't het for the mutations that are presented in the acronyum.

Im not saying Ron is correct in his terminology.

Then why not make it right? Their is no reason everyone has to follow what he does.

Would you like to type out Jungle Albino Het Patternless Het for Ruby Eyes all day long? In short it is Jungle het APTOR het RAPTOR, and hey it still includes the somewhat catchy name, which also includes his LAST NAME.

No, I would expect Jungle Tremper Albino het Patternless, ECLIPSE (IF each mutation were PROVEN recessive). It's really not that difficult.

[Ian S.]

Well here is something I have been trying to put together for years now. Can someone kindly explain what in the heck this means LMAO!!! or how it works for that matter?? please reffer to the link posted. I'd love to hear what people have to say and or some incite regaurding the purple eyed albino and all that color mumbo jumbo. Can we really apply the color spectrum chart into genetics?? In some cases I coould suppose it's possible, but eye color effecting body color???? lol
http://www.leopardgecko.com/pictorial.html

[groovygeckos]

I wish I had a copy of one of my "Het APTOR" ads. They would clearly state something like, " Carrothead/Tail Tangerine Jungle Giant Albino Het APTOR Possible het RAPTOR". I would go on to explain, "Het for Patternless, possible het for Eclipse/RAPTOR", and I will clearly state what the animal is "het" for, possibly "het" for, and even which traits are obviously expressed. Nowhere will I make misleading "het for Tremper Orange" statements and everything is out in the open. So no by saying Het APTOR I (personally)am not implying anything.

I say "het" because this is all that is known since they were sold as "hets". Until someone or myself can claim otherwise, most (including myself) will say 'Het Patternless' , 'Het RAPTOR' 'APTOR-Patternless gene carrier' or something to that effect. Ill even explain how patterning traits(to the customer) are polygenic, but act recessive, the very same reason Ron tells me he calls them recessive. Definitely trying my best to educate people, that is how I am making it better.

Trust me Ide like to be able to guarantee genetics on the APTOR/RAPTOR line but Im working on proving it out just like everyone else. It has not been done yet, so until there is something to base it on... I have some 'ideas'.

I prefer saying het APTOR-Patternless or het Red Eyes myself. Because I dont agree that an APTOR Het Eclipse (correct term), should be called a APTOR Het RAPTOR either. If it is "Patternless" why is it Het RAPTOR, having the "P" included? LOL I know it doesnt make sense, but thats not the point of the name to make sense. IMO the point of the name is to be catchy, sell HIS name, and to be more keyboard-friendly. :)

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Taken from one of RT's pages...

Since red + blue makes purple - this means it is possible to make an albino with a blue body!!!

It's kinda funny his reasoning here, considering what produces color in most animals are melanin (browns/blacks), erythrin (reds/oranges) and xanthin (yellows). The purple that is seen in lavender cornsnakes is not really a red+blue purple, but shades of melanin and erythrin that appear purple.

Ill even explain how patterning traits(to the customer) are polygenic, but act recessive, the very same reason Ron tells me he calls them recessive.

Just because it acts recessive doesn't mean it is recessive. Which is why I think it's wrong.

[groovygeckos]

Yea I never got that red + blue thing in school either. :raspberry LOL

I think its wrong if it is for the purpose of misleading. Maybe not, if it is for the purpose of not explaining to hundreds of people what the difference is between the two (polygenic and recessive) when you can get the same results. Me fence rider. :hehe:

Sometimes it is hard enough just explaining 'simple' things.

Jerry is on the radio right now... I gotta run :bolt01: Peace!

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Um, you did understand what I posted, right?

It's kinda funny his reasoning here, considering what produces color in most animals are melanin (browns/blacks), erythrin (reds/oranges) and xanthin (yellows). The purple that is seen in lavender cornsnakes is not really a red+blue purple, but shades of melanin and erythrin that appear purple.

See any word for BLUE in there?

I think its wrong if it is for the purpose of misleading. Maybe not, if it is for the purpose of not explaining to hundreds of people what the difference is between the two (polygenic and recessive) when you can get the same results.

It's misleading whether it's deliberate or not.

POLYGENIC = relating to a characteristic controlled by the interaction of genes at more than one locus.

(added in case an individual is reading this and does not know what that means)

[groovygeckos]

Um, yep. ThisYea I never got that red + blue thing in school either. LOL was a joke anyways, not directed at you. :reddevil: