Heterozygous traits, how much would you pay for 100% reassurance?

[The BoidSmith]

Some consider reptile morphs beautiful animals in their own right. Some view them more as an investment and are mainly interested in breeding them for a profit. The appearance in the market of recessive normal-looking animals heterozygous for a certain morph has resulted in all kinds of discussions about origins, genetics, and if they truly are what they are claimed or normal animals sold as such by unscrupulous individuals.

Buying a baby reptile, raising it to maturity, breeding it and then discovering it’s not what it was claimed it’s highly frustrating to say the least. We invest money, hope, effort, and time into a venture with total uncertainty on the outcome until most of the time it’s too late. The individual that sold us the snake will not assume responsibility of what he had done and most of the time there is little legal recourse.

Now, if there was something that could be done and that would legally protect us while at the same time reassure us that we have in effect a heterozygous for such a morph, would you utilize such a service?

How much would it be worth to you to have the peace of mind than in those 4-5 years before we produce that first anxiously awaited clutch we will produce what in fact we were told and if not you have grounds for an easy lawsuit?

No, I’m not rambling, this is for real. Please take some time to think if you might use such a service. Think of all the time, effort, and expense you are putting during those years before you answer.

How much would you be willing to pay for that peace of mind and reassurance (yes, it's kind of an insurance) as a one time payment per animal. Please bear in mind that we are talking about expensive recessive heterozygous animals here, those that the visual morph will be worth between $1,000 and your most wildest ($$$) dreams! Just remember that you, the customer would be the one to pay for this service and not the breeder.

Please keep in mind that we always want to pay as little as possible. The question is actually asking "how much would it be worth to you" rather than how much would you be willing to pay.

Best regards,

[markface]

i picked $150 . i would definately think that it would be worth it if i was going to buy a critter that i had hopes for future breeding . peace of mind is something that i can see spending a little extra money on .

[Junkyard]

So I buy an animal and pay a $150 insurance price. Would this insurance need to be purchased again by a third party if they were to buy the animal it from me?

[The BoidSmith]

So I buy an animal and pay a $150 insurance price. Would this insurance need to be purchased again by a third party if they were to buy the animal it from me?

No, it can be transfered with the animal provided there's a picture ID that can unequivocally identify the animal.

Thanks.

[starwarsdad]

Who would hold the "insurance"? Is this completely hypothetical?

I would rather buy from a trusted source and pay more than take my chances with a supposed bargain. I would not take a chance on a 66% het or 50% het period. To me, those animals are normal and would not command any premium for MY dollars.

[joepythons]

I voted for $100 because the only hets i have are a pair of 100% het albinos.Plus i trust the breeder on his guarantee that they are true hets.I also feel $100 is a fair price for insurance just in-case something does turn wrong since everyone does make mistakes.

[reptilebreeder]

When it comes to hets, "you get what you paid for", and "if it seems to good to be true......." are theories I adhere to. So I'm only going to buy hets from someone I absolutely trust 110%, these are usually well known and respected people in the business. As such you are probably paying a higher price, so the guarantee is kind of "built in" to the price. OTOH, there are a lot of unknown breeders who are as honest and ethical as some of the well known breeders, many times their prices are cheaper, because they aren't selling a [known]reputation. The problem is if this insurance is going to tack on another $150 bucks or so, it may bump the price back up to the market price, so you might as well just pay the market price the known breeder is asking.

[The BoidSmith]

I chose to label it as some sort of "insurance" although it's not strictly one. Something like I'm thinking off will favor the relatively small but yet honest breeder.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Laura Fopiano]

To be honest, I didn't pick any price.....and would never by from an unknown source. I have suffered from a major loss last year, and have only recently bought from the best and most reliable breeders available.
We really have no true standard or AKC in our little corner of the world and beauty is in the eye of the beholder so to speak...so I could possibly see the idea as a tough sell.....hence my title...In a perfect world.

[Clay Davenport]

I wouldn't use it myself. The way I look at it is if I have so little confidence in a sellers word that animals are hets that I need insurance to feel comfortable with the deal, then I'm not buying the snakes in the first place.

[Cat_72]

I wouldn't use it myself. The way I look at it is if I have so little confidence in a sellers word that animals are hets that I need insurance to feel comfortable with the deal, then I'm not buying the snakes in the first place.

My thoughts exactly.

[nicolai]

interesting concept. I think that even the lowest priced hets out there would warrent the 150.00 "insurance" just due to the fact that the animal will produce ???? offsping over the course of its life and insuring the fact that you got what you paid for more then makes the 150.00 worth it.Say you buy 2.2 hets and three years later the seller goes under and the next year you produce your first clucth and wham nothing, well there is no seller to fall back on.

[The BoidSmith]

In order to be taken seriously by the people I'm discussing this with I need to achieve a critical mass of members (or not) voting.

What's that figure? Well maybe 10% of the Fauna members...I know, I know that's being overly optimistic. So far I've got 15!

So if you know of friends, relatives, bus drivers :) , etc. that may be willing to vote and give their opinions please let them know about this thread.

Do we want to end with the uncertainty of the heterozygous/possibles plague or are we going to go on forever complaining about being ripped off and do nothing about it?

Thanks

[Lucille]

Dan,

I am intrigued. To be honest, right now I do not buy real high dollar reptiles since my education and family take up most of my spare change.

I would like details of your interesting idea, though. In my experience, insurance is something I pay for, but many times it is difficult to deal with.

I have been with the same reputable firm for over 20 years for my homeowners and car insurance and never had a problem, but one time when a car ran onto me, it was a nightmare enforcing the other insurance company to pay, and in fact they did not end up paying for some of my damage.

If you were to form a company, based on the absolute integrity I have seen in you, I would join in a heartbeat if I ever needed this kind of peace of mind.

Insurance companies are in business to make money, so they pay out as little as they can. The good firms do it as they should, but other insurance companies make a person fight hard just to get what is coming to them.
I'd like to hear more about your plans.

[shrap]

I wouldn't use it myself. The way I look at it is if I have so little confidence in a sellers word that animals are hets that I need insurance to feel comfortable with the deal, then I'm not buying the snakes in the first place.

That is exactly how I feel about it.

[coyote]

I have to bring my pet idea into this issue.

Genetic testing.

Zoos do it. And if Biologists can gather field data about bears by setting up stations where tufts of hair are snagged off of bears just passing by, then the technology already exists.

You can get your bird genetically sexed for $20. The same lab testing birds is offering genetic sexing for iguanas.

If, the only extra expense is for labwork, not only will the fee paid be reasonable but the information gained will be superior to any type of insurance. It has to cost less than investing into the insurance industry.

Testing a newly purchased hatchling will tell you at the outset whether you got what you paid for. No more investments of years and money into an animal raising it up only to find that you were duped. You would know right away. And if this option was available, just telling the seller that you are going to have the testing done is a strong incentive for him or her to be honest.

Granted, my idea is somewhat of a pipe dream right now. A data base needs to be built and proven. Laboratories and techniques need to be proven reliable. But I still think it has merit and has highly beneficial implications for the entire hobby.

[Lucille]

Marjee I like the idea!!!!

[The BoidSmith]

Lucille,

Regrettably I was asked not to disclose any more information at this point. But I can say one thing though, Marjee had an excellent idea...;)

Regards.

[A_Kendergirl]

Sexing is done on a chromosomal level, what you're talking about is verifying a certain gene....MUCH harder to find. They haven't even finished the human genome project, so I doubt they have started on the various reptile genes. It's theoretically possible, but as of right now I don't see how it's anything but a pipe dream.

(unless you were talking about verifying sex....yet another common problem)

[The BoidSmith]

Furthermore Lucille, your avatar is "enlightening"! And that's all I have to say about that (Forrest Gump)...

Best regards.

[Lucille]

Lucille,

Regrettably I was asked not to disclose any more information at this point. But I can say one thing though, Marjee had an excellent idea...;)

Regards.

I do hope that if this project involves lab testing, that whoever is in charge of the company will make sure that the testing is high quality and does not involve error rates that plague some of the companies doing tests in people.
Great idea. If they sell stock, let me know... :hehe:

[The BoidSmith]

Again, IF this idea works out it will be done with a company with an established name in the market and whose results are accepted in a court of law. But there's nothing we can do with 19 votes at this point. There's no doubt about it that there will be people who will not want this to happen as their days of selling animals of dubious lineage could very well be over. Then of course there's always those that will not want to pay for the service and go the "inexpensive" route. That one which has provided time and again to be the most costly one!

Regards

[Clay Davenport]

I see what you're saying now, at least I think I do. You're not asking about insurance at all, you're asking what we'd be willing to pay for genetic testing to determine if in fact a gene was present. You should have just said that in the first place.
I can see how that would be a useful service. I'd consider using it as a breeder myself. Say I breed my het whatevers and want to know which female 66% hets to hold back. No breeding trials and wasted time.

I can also see how it will seriously impact the herp market. At that point someone can actually buy one male het snake and have a straight path to produce the morph with no hold ups from dealing with 50% hets.
That's not even considering the double and triple recessives that we're just starting to look at. Everything would be put on the fast track, new morph production as well as the decline of prices.

[Chameleon Company]

"Insurance", or some kind of guarantee that can be purchased so that if hets don't prove out, there is some compensation or easily available recourse. In a perfect world maybe, but from a legal and business standpoint, impractical as heck and unfortunately fraught wth the same problems a buyer now faces. The big breeders with a proven track record don't need it, and who is going to underwrite the smaller, under-capitalized breeders? I'm with Clay and Cathy and Sammy on this one.

[Lucille]

"Insurance", or some kind of guarantee that can be purchased so that if hets don't prove out, there is some compensation or easily available recourse.

The way the conversation is going though, it is not insurance at all, it is better: it sounds like it's to be an idea to test the genetics of the animal so you KNOW when you are buying it, what you have. That's an astoundingly good idea. And it will change a lot in the herp world.
What an exciting idea, and to think we heard it first, right here on Fauna!!!

[Dennis Hultman]

So what would I get for my 150 if the animal doesn’t produce? My original amount paid?

[Dennis Hultman]

Ok now I’m confused. Insurance or genetic testing? It sounds like insurance until Marjee made her post.

[The BoidSmith]

So what would I get for my 150 if the animal doesn’t produce? My original amount paid?

You have a proof that will be admisible in court. What this will do is have the bad guys think not twice but three times before even attempting to scam. In fact, except for those that are unwilling to pay the price, for the rest the "possible" animals will disappear. They will be either normal or 100% hetero, and we are closer to this than one might think! Waiting years to make your name in the herp world would also be over. It won't matter if you breed 10 or 1,000 animals or if your name is Mr. Bigsnake. Keep on voting, we need a critical mass! There is now enough topic for discussion.

Regards.

[Chameleon Company]

(Me and anyone else who wants to make a claim), are we talking about identifying a genetic marker for a recessive trait, and then being able to test a purchased animal for that trait? If do-able (it is possible that the research necessary to identify that genetic marker could be cost-prohibitive), and affordable for the buyer, it would be a wonderful option. That would be more in line with the "reassurance" that Dan mentioned early on. The phrase "kind of insurance" was also used, and I think that is what led me and others to view it as impractical, if it was similar to insurance models we all are familiar with. Not to be the party-pooper here, but the value of all the ball morphs, and het-balls, will continue to trend downward, and so will all things that flow from that value. But if an genetic test "assurance" could be done affordably, it would be a wonderful option, and I agree with you Dan and Lucille wholeheartedly on that point. It might not get money back from a scammer, but would at least save time (and money) for the new buyer-breeder. I only wish chameleons were as easy as ball pythons.

[shrap]

The more I read the more confused I get about exactly what it is you are proposing Dan.

Are we talking genetic testing?

Are we talking compiling evidence AFTER the sale to use in court to sue someone who lied about a het?

My head hurts...

[The BoidSmith]

Sammy,

Yes. ;)

[shrap]

I can see where breeders could use this to sort possible hets.

As a buyer I would still rather just buy hets from trusted sources. Problem solved.

It is doing little good after I buy when I have to pay a lawyer, travel to another state, and go through a bunch of court proceedings and eat up my personal time. Especially if the seller is a fake name that I cant sue anyway. So I really dont see how this is "insurance" at all.

[Cat_72]

I'm kind of lost here as well. Insurance is one thing....genetic proof is something totally different. When you say "insurance", I'm thinking you mean a slip of paper that you pay for saying that the animal is guaranteed to be a het.....which I don't think would be any more helpful than most folks' currently used guarantee paperwork.

If you mean the assurance of a genetic test PROVING beyond a shadow of a doubt the animal carries a certain gene, that's a whole different ball game entirely.

[Cat_72]

Another thought here......you are asking us to put a dollar amount on what we would be willing to pay.....but I think it would really depend on what kind gene we were talking. I would be willing to pay a higher dollar amount to prove that an animal was het for a more expensive morph....it's hard to say an exact figure.

[KelliH]

If you are talking about genetic testing, it is an interesting (but not new) idea. It is costly from what I have heard from others who have looked into it for geckos, and I see it only being beneficial to breeders in testing the possible hets to determine if they are gene carriers or not (hets or normals).

I only buy het animals from people I know and trust that produced the animals themselves, so if you are talking about some type of insurance, I wouldn't really need that.

[Clay Davenport]

The problem is you are asking what a service would be worth to us but you are being sufficiently vague that we have no idea what exactly the service is. Everybody's reply to the thread contains the term "if you're talking about"

WHat genetic testing would boil down to in the end iis buyers would come to expect the seller to have it done and that would open up the possibility of a seller having an actual het tested then selling normals with copies of the het's results.
I can see a real use for it within a breeders collection, like I said before, to expidite the breeding process by eliminating possible hets and telling the breeder which females to hold back etc.
This would, most certainly, speed the production rates in recessive morphs and result in even faster price decline however. The efforts of breeder males would not be wasted trying to determine the genetics of his 3 year old daughters.

From a buyers perspective, it basically after the fact information. Sure it's admissible evidence, but you still have to hire a lawyer, go to court, like Sammy said.
If the seller is providing the testing before the sale you still have to worry about fraud.
It would be a nice thing to have available, but it wouldn't make me comfortable enough to buy from someone I wouldn' tbuy from today. Buy from a breeder you trust to begin with and avoid the whole issue.

Unless adressed directly, I will refrain from posting further to this thread until something resembling details of what is being suggested are provided.

[The BoidSmith]

It is doing little good after I buy when I have to pay a lawyer, travel to another state, and go through a bunch of court proceedings and eat up my personal time. Especially if the seller is a fake name that I cant sue anyway. So I really dont see how this is "insurance" at all.

My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.

[Lucille]

My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.

If you are talking about genetic testing, no.

If your talking about insurance, maybe yes. Many jurisdictions have consumer's statutes; the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act allows for up to 3 times the damages as compensation, plus the losing side has to pay attorney's costs.

So under the consumer statute here in Texas, and more and more popular statutes elsewhere, you would get:
Attorney's fees paid by the scammer
Time value of several years wasted
Difference between the value of the fake het and a real het
and the second and third items can be tripled for you so we are talking about substantial money.

Of course there would have to be proof, but we are not talking about beyond a reasonable doubt, we are talking the more relaxed civil burden of preponderance.

I actually like this statute in Texas because it means I will be able to help even small purchasers who get scammed, and have the scammer pony up my fee. That's sweet.

[Chameleon Company]

Lucille,
I can't disagree with the provisions of the law, but think a certain dose of added detail is in order.
On just the headache side of things, Sammy pointed out some of the "costs" to the complainant bringing the suit.
In many cases, we would be talking a het valued at $1500 or less. Small claims would likely not hear the case, and would only be valid on assets in the state where the case was brought if it did. I say "not hear it", for as soon as the judge realized there were many instances of one word against another ( I bred this to it .... where's your proof that you bred that?) and genetic probabilities, he's not going to rule. So, to bring the suit to full court, with base damages of $1500-3000 or so, the complainant would have to commit $10-15Gs. If he defendent can't afford to fight it, then he can't pay up if you win. If he/she can afford to fight it, then the liability could go over $20-30K, as he may countersue. Surely, a few letters could be written for under $1000, but to get all the damages and fees, its only remedied in a full court. The burden of proof would still be quite high, even with a civil jury, as its still one word against another for the most part. And what is at stake? The complainant may be seeking a net award of under $5000, but have to put up 2-3 times that amount easily with no guaranteee of recovery. On top of it all, you are going after a "scammer", and you can't get the proverbial "blood out of a turnip". Bottom line, IMHO, it just ain't gonna happen.

[shrap]

My question is, do we have a better protection right now?

Regards.

Dan, in my mind, yes. You buy from reputable people to begin with.


Lucille,

That is great what they are doing in Texas, but that still dont mean you can get blood from a turnip. If the person in question is broke or hiding their money then you still dont see a dime. Sadly that happens all the time in civil cases. You cant take from people what they dont have.

[Lucille]

Lucille,

That is great what they are doing in Texas, but that still dont mean you can get blood from a turnip. If the person in question is broke or hiding their money then you still dont see a dime. Sadly that happens all the time in civil cases. You cant take from people what they dont have.

Sammy

Do me a favor and put this conversation somewhere, where you won't forget it. I will never forget Fauna, and the people here, and what they have done for me.
Someday, I'll take a picture of my study, and you'll see the hides of Texas scammers nailed to the wall by the new Texas Hammer..... :)
I promise you, the turnip will bleed.......

[The BoidSmith]

The problem is you are asking what a service would be worth to us but you are being sufficiently vague that we have no idea what exactly the service is.

Clay,

You are right, and I shouldn't have opened my mouth in the first place. But when you are asked "do you think there's a need for something like this", and at the same time "please don't disclose details", you are put between a rock and a hard place. So far I had "other" expectations as far as the type of replies. These are more than likely from what you are very well pointing out, not enough information. Forgive me for a while, OK?

Regards

[shrap]

Someday, I'll take a picture of my study, and you'll see the hides of Texas scammers nailed to the wall by the new Texas Hammer..... :)

Is it legal to do that down there? :)

[Lucille]

Is it legal to do that down there? :)

Shhhhh, no honey but we're just tryin' to scare 'em. Same with the tarrin' and featherin'

But it IS legal to charge $30,000 for a case and send the bill to them after I win a DTPA case, and have a judgment so their future earnings are mine.......
mmmmm, turnip blood...... :hehe:

[Chameleon Company]

But it IS legal to charge $30,000 for a case and send the bill to them after I win a DTPA case, and have a judgment so their future earnings are mine.......

But you will have fronted and risked the $30K, and be waiting to recover via garnishment from a scammer. If and when it happens, it will be fun to read about here. But until then, I would recommend a "Plan B" to all buyers of hets. :)

[The BoidSmith]

Jim

Yes, "plan B" as in Lee Marvin's "Ballinger"; yes, I'm that old...

[Chameleon Company]

Well, you only got me by a year, and I loved Lee Marvin, but I can't recall his "Plan B". I doubt it was nice?

[chondrogal]

I would probably not pay for any sort of insurance program. I would do as others suggest, know my breeder and buy only from reputable sources.

As a breeder of high end morphs involving possible hets, I like the idea very much about having genetic testing available. In my species, perhaps others, it would be difficult to issue a certificate with a picture verification as the babys change completely in appearance as they grow up. Some of them continue to change for many years.

As a holder of several possible hets though, I would gladly pay a lab fee to determine which of my snakes were hets... and for that matter, sexing would be a very nice thing to determine in babies too. Mis-sexing can happen to anyone accidentally.

[The BoidSmith]

As a holder of several possible hets though, I would gladly pay a lab fee to determine which of my snakes were hets... and for that matter, sexing would be a very nice thing to determine in babies too. Mis-sexing can happen to anyone accidentally.

Cathy,

This is exactly what we are trying to do here. But unless we find an interest in the industry that justifies the involvement of a serious company it's not going to happen.

Regards.

[Chameleon Company]

This does not give the appearance of being a near-term solution, but maybe in time. Seems cost-prohibitive in the foreseeable future, but I would thoroughly enjoy being wrong there.

Straying a bit off-topic, I did some reading. Lee Marvin as "Ballinger". TV show which ran from '57-60 (you were about six, and I five, when it ended). Chicago detective, and Paul Newman was his captain boss (imagine a TV show with those two before their tremendous movie careers). 100 episodes filmed. Not likely to happen, but I would find tremendous comfort in sending a Lee Marvin-type after some scammer who was selling normals as hets ! Of course, we do have Lucille with her skinning and tanning aspirations in Texas !

[Cat_72]

Well, I don't know exactly what you're saying would be done, but I know in dogs, it's quite simple to get a DNA test to prove paternity, costs about $35 to get it done. If you're talking testing for the actual gene that makes the animal het for whatever trait...now that could take some doing.

[Chameleon Company]

Cathy and Others,
Since the issue of paternity has been raised as a possible avenue to explore, and you mention that it only costs $35 to do it in dogs, I have to assume that that form of paternal proof is not based on DNA identificaton. My belief is that a DNA analysis cannot be had for less than $600, but I am not very knowledgable there. And that would be just for a comparative DNA analysis, such as establishing kinship, not the identification of a specific gene or two, if we had any idea what we were looking for. If anyone has a little more solid info on some of the costs for different procedures and tests at this point in time, whether for dogs, humans, reptiles, etc, please share it if you have a moment. Thanks in advance.

[Cat_72]

Cathy and Others,
Since the issue of paternity has been raised as a possible avenue to explore, and you mention that it only costs $35 to do it in dogs, I have to assume that that form of paternal proof is not based on DNA identificaton. My belief is that a DNA analysis cannot be had for less than $600, but I am not very knowledgable there. And that would be just for a comparative DNA analysis, such as establishing kinship, not the identification of a specific gene or two, if we had any idea what we were looking for. If anyone has a little more solid info on some of the costs for different procedures and tests at this point in time, whether for dogs, humans, reptiles, etc, please share it if you have a moment. Thanks in advance.

Well, you take a swab from the inside of the male dogs' mouth, send it in, and the AKC has a "profile" made, and they charge you $35 (or right in that ballpark) to do it, and they call it DNA testing. Maybe I'm just dumb as a box of rocks, but that's what made me assume it was based on DNA identification.

[Cat_72]

Is this "solid" enough info?

http://www.akc.org/dna/index.cfm

DNA and the AKC
Making the Science Work for You

The AKC offers a comprehensive set of voluntary and mandatory programs to ensure the integrity of the AKC registry: voluntary DNA Profiling; the Frequently Used Sires requirement; the Fresh-Extended/Frozen Semen requirement; the Multiple-Sired Litter Registration Policy; and the Kennel Inspections/Compliance Audit Program. The AKC has built the world's largest database of canine DNA profiles for parentage verification and genetic identity purposes.

The Science Behind AKC DNA Profiles

AKC DNA Profiles are generated using the same technology used by law enforcement agencies throughout the world. How does this work? In humans and dogs alike, each gene is present as two copies (displayed as letters). Offspring receive one copy of each gene from each parent in a random process.

This technology does not use actual genes, but other DNA sequences that are also inherited one copy from each parent. For this reason, your dog's AKC DNA Profile does not provide any information about the conformation of the dog or the presence/absence of genetic diseases. Furthermore, AKC DNA Profiles cannot determine the breed of a dog.

Voluntary DNA Profile

This voluntary program has resulted from significant input from the fancy. The DNA Profile Program is for owners and breeders electing to add value to their breeding programs by eliminating concerns or questions about identification and parentage.

A dog owner may contact AKC for a DNA Test Kit which includes a swab that the owner uses to collect loose cells from inside the dog's cheek. An AKC DNA Profile containing the dog's registration information, genotype, and a unique DNA Profile number is issued for each dog sampled. This DNA Profile number will appear on subsequently issued Registration Certificates and Pedigrees.

DNA Requirements

AKC DNA Profiling is required for: Frequently Used Sires (dogs having the greatest impact on the AKC Stud Book); imported breeding stock; dogs whose semen is collected for fresh-extended or frozen use; and for the sires, dam and puppies for Multiple-Sired Litter Registration.

Kennel Inspections/Compliance Audit Program

AKC Representatives take DNA samples at randomly selected kennels to verify identification and parentage of litters. AKC litter registration and privileges will be withdrawn when the parentage of the litters is determined to be incorrect. The dogs sampled through the Compliance Audit Program are not considered AKC DNA Profiled, and DNA Profiles are not issued.

The AKC DNA Database and Parentage Verification

Comparison of the DNA profiles of a dam, sire, and pup(s) will determine, with greater than 99% confidence, whether the pups are from the tested dam and sire. The AKC DNA database examines the parentage of all AKC DNA Profiled registered dogs and litters whelped on or after January 1, 2000. When problems are discovered, the DNA staff works with breeders to determine correct parentage at the breeder's expense.

AKC Parentage Evaluation Service

For a fee, an AKC DNA Analyst will issue a Parentage Evaluation of a litter in the form of an easy to read table listing each dog's genotype and a written report.

Parentage Evaluation can be used to ensure accuracy when breeding has been done offsite, for cases of artificial insemination, or to add to extra measure of confidence to your pedigrees.

AKC Parentage Profile

For AKC registered dogs born on/after January 1, 2000, dog owners may purchase a handsome profile displaying the registration information and genotypes for the dog and its AKC registered sire and dam. All three dogs must be AKC DNA Profiled to purchase this profile.

[Lucille]

Wow Cathy, great piece of research. I had no idea the AKC did all that, and I can see where it would come in handy.

[Chameleon Company]

Cathy,
Thanks for hunting up the info. I guess it all comes down to degree of accuracy. While that test claims a 99% degree of accuracy, and would be acceptable to probably 99% of all, my confusion probably stems from the testing that takes it out to about a 99.9999% degree of accuracy, which is more than most would ever have need of except in certain legal situations where much more was at stake. Thanks !

[The BoidSmith]

Bingo Cathy! :)

Regards

[Cat_72]

:hurray:

[Serpwidgets]

I think that genetic testing would be handy, as long as it can determine the actual genotype at specific loci. The biggest value in that would be eliminating possible hets, which especially would greatly accelerate the production of new genetic combinations. Establishing paternity, etc, would not be very useful IMO.

This would still need to be done by the purchaser, since (as I think was mentioned) there's no way to guarantee that the seller didn't just send in a bunch of samples from one individual and say "these are from all these different animals."

The biggest hurdle would be the up-front expense of the original effort to map out the loci in question. And each time a new gene is discovered, this expense would need to be paid out by the business providing that service, in order to map out the new locus, or determine if it's an allele at a previously known locus. You would also likely need samples from a decent number of specimens of already-known genotypes in order to find those loci, too, so testing for a new gene might not be possible until there are already several of them in existence (and two generations have been produced) and the price has already dropped quite a bit.

As for cost, it really depends... I don't work with the high priced stuff, only cornsnakes. But I think I might be willing to pay $50-100 to determine the actual genotypes of certain cornsnakes.

[Cat_72]

If you, as a purchaser, can prove for $50 that the baby het you have purchased is indeed sired by a particular father, how would that not be helpful? It could mean the difference between a $25 normal snake and a $1000 het.

I think it would be particularly helpful for folks like me just getting a start in the world of high-dollar snakes, there seems to be so much apprehension about buying from "new, unheard of" breeders.....if I can offer genetic proof that my babies are indeed what I say they are, it will help me to GET established as one of those folks that people will buy hets from with confidence.

[A_Kendergirl]

I could see what Cathy is talking about as being very useful to a buyer, especially one who is a little wary about who they are buying from (for whatever reason...newbie, money, etc.). The only usefulness to a seller is if it helps seal the deal more often.

[coyote]

An example of what is available for horses.
http://www.avianbiotech.co.uk/EquineEN.htm

[Clay Davenport]

I know I was going to hold off posting until some sort of information was forthcoming, but now we have yet another possibility.
I have to say it, this thread blew right past pointless a long time ago. It's just forcing speculation in attempt to guess what the original post was even about.
This is like asking if you would be willing to pay someone $1000 to come work on your house without revealing what the job would be. Perhaps they're going to pull one weed from the flower bed, or maybe they're going to install an in ground pool.

Point blank question:
1. Are you talking about merely determining parentage?
2. Are you talking about actually identifying the presence of a recessive gene? (meaning we send in a sample of one snake marked "test for albino gene")
3. Is it a third and as of yet unguessed possibility?

IF you are just talking about determining parentage, like in the AKC example, then I personally would have no use for the service. It brings you right back to the original point of if you don't trust who you're buying from any more than that, why are you buying anything from them?
It would be useless to a breeder or anyone else in determining which possible hets were actual hets. If I bred my two het whatevers, I would know the parents, just not which of the offspring had the gene.

IF you ate talking about identifying whether a specific gene is present then that would be useful. However the latest hint in this scavenger hunt seems to suggest this is not the case at all. Which doesn't surprise me since I thought to begin with that this would require mapping of the snake genome which is probably fairly low on any scientists priority list.

I still haven't voted in the poll. Kind of hard to cast a vote when you don't know what it is you're voting on.
If it's number one, then I just don't forsee my ever using the service. If it's number 2 then I would be willing to pay for that.

[Cat_72]

IF you are just talking about determining parentage, like in the AKC example, then I personally would have no use for the service. It brings you right back to the original point of if you don't trust who you're buying from any more than that, why are you buying anything from them?

Maybe you've been around long enough to know exactly who you can buy from and who you can't, but not everyone has. (And not everyone has discovered the BOI!) And there are plenty of folks out there who may very well be selling genuine 100% hets, but people are leery of buying from them.

Pretend for a moment that you are shopping for 100% het pied Ball Pythons. Remember, this is PURELY hypothetical. You have 2 choices......buy them from "well known big breeder" for $1000, or buy them from me, with a genetic guarantee that they are indeed the offspring of my homozygous pied male, for $600. Both animals are equally healthy, and of equal value.
Saving $400 would be of no use to you?

[Clay Davenport]

Maybe you've been around long enough to know exactly who you can buy from and who you can't, but not everyone has. (And not everyone has discovered the BOI!) And there are plenty of folks out there who may very well be selling genuine 100% hets, but people are leery of buying from them.

Pretend for a moment that you are shopping for 100% het pied Ball Pythons. Remember, this is PURELY hypothetical. You have 2 choices......buy them from "well known big breeder" for $1000, or buy them from me, with a genetic guarantee that they are indeed the offspring of my homozygous pied male, for $600. Both animals are equally healthy, and of equal value.
Saving $400 would be of no use to you?

It still boils down to trust. How would I know the pied male you claim provided the DNA sample for the paternity test was actually the snake it came from? If we didn't know each other at all and were on opposite ends of the country, how would I know you actually had a pied male and not just a picture of one? Unless the company doing the testing took the sample and notorized it as being taken from a visually pied snake, and also took the samples from the offspring to certify everything with photographic certificates, the possibility of fraud still exists. The certificate itself would even have to be copyproof by using a notary imprint or something to prevent photo editing and using the same certificate to sell numerous snakes.
Perhaps this is how it would work, I don't know, we are still just speculating after all.

I suppose I do view the situation somewhat differently that some would have to. I do know someone who is working with pretty much anything I'd be interested in keeping. People who are really no more well known than myself but known to me to the point I have complete trust in anything I get from them.
There are many people who in all probability are selling genuine hets that I would not buy from because they are complete unknowns to me. However I do not have to worry about resorting to buying hets from someone I've never heard of so that peobably does color my opinion to a point.
Regardless, details of the procedure would have to be provided to determine if indeed it can prevent fraud. If the breeder is responsible for taking the samples of the parents and offspring then sending them to a lab, then the scammers can still sell fake hets but have the added bonus of having them certified as genuine.

[shrap]

Exactly Clay....

This in no way, at least in Cat's scenario, that this prevents fraud. People can make fake "genetic guarantees" from a lab just as easily as they make fake guarantees now on hets. It all comes full circle again... do you trust the person selling the hets or not.

[Cat_72]

I guess I can just hang up my business now, huh? If no one wants to buy hets from an unknown, and even something like this isn't going to help, perhaps it's pointless.

[Chameleon Company]

Wouldn't be so quick with that Cathy. I agree completely with Sammy and Clay. BUT !! While you may be unable to produce references of folks who have proven you to be a trustworthy seller of hets, who bought from you in years past and have proven your bloodlines, you still have references to be a quality person in other representations. Most of these scammers do not. Everyone starts at the bottom and moves up. If you are on the up-and-up, you can develop known and respected references (to include NO "bad-gal" threads here or elsewhere) quick enough, and your $600 het may have more appeal than a large breeder's $1000 het. If a genetic marker test ever becomes available and affordable, all will benefit, but until then, you may just have to compete a little harder.

[shrap]

I guess I can just hang up my business now, huh? If no one wants to buy hets from an unknown, and even something like this isn't going to help, perhaps it's pointless.

I would not call you an unknown Cathy. While you may not have a long track record selling animals you do have a long track record displaying what type of person you are. As Jim pointed out you have never had any type of "bad gal" posts about you as a buyer or seller and your rep is flawless. Just because you have yet to make an impact on the community with a sales history dont mean you have not made an impact with your knowledge, willingness to help others and the integrity you have shown through your posts. So dont sell yourself short, Cat.

[Lucille]

Cathy, I would have complete faith buying anything from you. I would need no fancy tests if you were the vendor of an animal I wanted to purchase.

[Clay Davenport]

They're right Cathy. I composed my response as if I didn't know you at all, and had never heard your name until I saw your ad for het pieds.
Based on the way in which you present yourself on this forum I personally wouldn't have a problem buying hets from you, and I'm sure that's true for many who are familiar with you here.
If you're breeding your visual to a het female then you'll have visual offspring for sale as well which will also add to your credibility to those who don't know you at all.

[The BoidSmith]

We all know that the paternity proof is pretty straight forward, right?

What would happen if a breeder sold his heterzygous animals with the DNA profile of either sire or dam (either one or both visual morphs)?

If the father is a male he can use copies of the same DNA profile to sell all the offspring of that male. All a buyer has to do is run a DNA profile on his animal and check with the DNA profile supplied by the seller.

What makes it even easier in reptiles is that sheds or scutes can be used as samples for DNA testing.

Not fool proof but nevertheless interesting. Good discussion!

Regards.

[Serpwidgets]

Well, there are two problems with a paternity/maternity test:

1- If I find out after the fact that it's not from the father they say it is, and they know that they could be "busted" by such a test, don't care, and still sell fraudulently, it is a ridiculous amount effort involved in trying to rectify things, and I would not trust that I'd ever see the money back even with all the effort having been expended. I appreciate Lucille's optimism in these matters, but you cannot (legally) physically force someone to pay even with a judgement against them.

2- In order to be able to run a paternity/maternity test, the seller already has to be a participant in the process, since they are (presumably) in possession of the parents. This is still easy enough for scammers to scam, since the people running the testing lab will never have physical access to the specimens in question. In cornsnakes there is a much simpler solution that is no more open to fraud, and doesn't cost $50 per animal... here's an example: http://www.herpregistry.com/acr/Registry.php?idnum=81

-----

As far as a genotype test, that would be many many times more valuable for breeders than a paternity test could ever be for buyers. At this point it would be stupid for me to cross a quintuple het for amel, anery, motley, hypo, and lavender to, say, a triple het for diffused motley charcoal, because I would get a bunch of hatchlings that were basically "normals and motleys, plus you gotta try to figure out which, if any, of the other 6 genes they're het for before you could even plan anything, plus you'd have to keep a bunch of them for 3 years just to figure out if any of them are even worthwhile."

(Yes, these are real-life examples, and most of my snakes are het or homo for 3-5 mutants.)

I also have a snow motley that is possible het for lavender, and possible het or homo hypo. I would like to make hypo lavender motleys with her, but I don't even know if she carries the right genes. It would be worth at least $50 to know her genotype today, so I can decide whether or not to invest another 2 years into raising her up.

It would be a great advantage to be able to use hets as breeders with the knowledge of the genotypes of their offspring. You could produce morphs based on recessive traits with the same breeding strategies used for dominant genes. That's a huge deal.

[Cat_72]

I apologize for seeming a bit thin-skinned in my last post, and thank those of you who left kind words. It just gets discouraging some days...the rotten scammers out there who make it difficult for someone trying to get started as a completely honest person. I guess I still have a hard time believing what lengths some of these scammers will go to just to make a few bucks.

That said, I still believe that if done properly, this could be of some aid in weeding out some of the bad guys at least, it's just a matter of closing the loopholes....which I suppose is easier said than done. And as Coyote posted, they DO have some testing already in horses for certain color genes, etc...I think it's something worth developing and working toward in the future.

[Eden's Exotic Haven]

This is a very interesting topic! I am a bit confused about what exactly I am supposed to be placing my vote on.

I agree with some of you though, I'd pay $100 to $150 to be sure my hets really carried the gene they're het for, but I'm not sure if that's actually what's being proposed. I'm very new to ball pythons (bought my first about a year ago) and I do plan on breeding morphs. I have two hets, I bought them from a well known breeder, but I prefer to build friendly relationships with people I buy my animals from, which is why I prefer to buy from the little guys. With all the scammers that are out there it's very hard to trust anyone, so some kind of genetic proof would be great, if that is what's being proposed.

If we're talking about parental testing, I see no real use for it with breeders, and since nonbreeders probably aren't buying hets, I doubt that's what's being proposed.




Jennifer and Dereck

[The BoidSmith]

In my opinion we are not that far away from having something like this being a reality. It's only a matter of getting the right testing company involved, and an interest by a few progressive breeders. The picture ID was proposed for the first time right here in Faunaclassifieds. Although it started slowly it's use is now widespread. It was a huge step forward in the right direction but, as we have seen lately, far from being fool proof. Again the paternity would not be fool proof either, but I would feel far more confident in purchasing an heterozygous animal that comes with a picture ID, its DNA profile and that of the sire and/or dam.

Regards.

[crotalusadamanteus]

I voted $150. I feel if you are just not 100% sure, but want it, and the $150 makes you feel more secure than do it.

I personally agree with clays point. if i don't trust, i don't buy.

[AmariPhotography]

If you get a judgement in court, the court gives you a piece of paper that states Mr/Mrs. X owes you $$$ My friend was recently embezzled from by her bookkeeper. over 40k over one yr. it took her TWO more years and disgustingly large amounts of her personal time to recover just 25k ( the amt of the bond) and she pd the lawyer about 8k...net recovery 17k....when we figured her hrs spent on this....22 dollars an hr....thats what she recovered of her own money that she earned. bleeping sick(and the person is still free)....

Sooooo... if i scrape and save and invest 3 5 or even 10k to get started breeding some cool high dollar morphs and get taken by some corrupt breeder.... i as an average ( or even above average) hobbyist/breeder/enthusiast am not going to be able to afford to goto court. even with concrete evidence....oh and by the way the $$$ recovered by my friend was from the bond...not the free crook...ponder that and think about self regulation....document EVERYTHING you purchase...and if you get taken by someone...tell the world so that person goes belly up...but back it up w/copies of the ad, all correspondence etc etc...we don't need slandering...we need to regulate our own industry and the joke courts be damned

[The BoidSmith]

Aaron,

Point well taken. Every now and then we hear people saying they are going to sue someone over $500. Caution is still the best approach and if in spite of it you become the victim of a scam juts let the rest know. You may not recover what you lost, but at least you will be helping others. As far as the topic of this thread goes there was not much interest of the company to work on this. We are probably just a drop in the bucket compared to other, more traditional, pets.

Regards.

[bcherps]

Hi All,

I wish I had gotten in on this thread earlier.

I work at the University of Florida as a Biological Scientist in the Molecular Genetics Department. Genotyping is 50-60 percent of my job. I am tinkering with some genotyping of reptiles now. I am working with several species of snakes, and I will be working with a couple of large scale producers that have multiple generations of the same mutation plus het and wildtype siblings available. Of course we will be ball focused in the end, but I am looking at corns as the template becuase it is easier to ask for a scale clip from an albino motley corn than it is from a snow spider ball.

I am also working out if sheds are viable instead of scale clips.

Genotyping is a very easy procedure and I could teach a ten year old to do it, and it only takes a couple of minutes of work and a few hours in a cycler. What is difficult is locating the location, and dna sequence of the mutation. Also is it a single mutation in one spot, or is it a shift over lots of modifier genes-and if modifier genes which ones are needed and which ones are not for the mutation to be expressed. All these need to be worked out before we can say that what we see on the agorose gel at the end of the day is indeed what we were really looking for.

We are a ways away and like I said I am just tinkering with it in my spare time. However, there are other services that require genotyping over at the vet school and I believe the charge is right in the $130 range.

However, the problem, still lies with the validity of the seller.

For example, I could genotype 10 balls for someone and come out with 5 hets. What is there to say that he doesn't take the results, duplicate the het documents and fabricate the norms into het documents? Or if I am recieving packages of sheds or scale clips, how do I know that breeder x has not sent me 10 clips from the same het whatever snake, and then uses the documents to represent 10 ch norms?

If people can forge drivers licenses, money, and paintings, they sure as heck can forge a validation certificate from a lab.

Thanks
ben

[The BoidSmith]

I am also working out if sheds are viable instead of scale clips.

Ben, that was my initial thought. I agree with you that it might be easy to forge. The only way that I had though around it was that the seller should provide a sample of the shed of the sire and/or dam with the offspring he sells, and then the buyer could run a DNA sequence on the shed of the animal he received if he wants to confirm if it came from that animal. Again it all boils down to the credibility of the seller.

Regards.

[bcherps]

Yeap, the seller could send you an different shed if you were testing for a secondary mutation het on a ghosts, ivories, lucies, background and would never know if the shed was the same animal, also the new owner is unlikely to pay a $100-150 fee, plus the pain in the butt of getting the same to and from the testing company. People aren't going to it for het albinos, or het ghosts, and if you are out there spending 10-20 grand on a morph you are usually getting it from a longtime breeder-not a reseller-which is unfortunately where the most scamming is.

Where I saw the biggest gain was I could offer services to big producers who then could make decisions on what animals to keep for grow outs and which ones not to bother with when making poss double hets and whatnot.

Thanks
ben cole

[crotalusadamanteus]

Even though the forgery mentioned is a definate probability, in a lot of ways it could be used for good still. Example would be "possible" hets. Being Het, DH, or TH all would sell for more money, it would eliminate the "possibilties" and give you the "knowns". Especially if planning a certain project. You simply keep the "known" mutant carriers. In the case of "possible" TH's, it would show exactly which mutant gene they are or aren't het for, and the animals could be priced accordingly, instead of trying to barter more on the gamble.

It could certainly reduce the time somewhat, on special gene combos, various people may be thinking of.

Still need to depend on the integrity of the seller no matter what, but the service could still be useful in other ways. To me it would be worth a $150 to know if this one or that one have the genes I hope they have.


Rick

[The BoidSmith]

Where I saw the biggest gain was I could offer services to big producers who then could make decisions on what animals to keep for grow outs and which ones not to bother with when making poss double hets and whatnot.

That's exactly right. Imagine a breeder being able to know if he is raising or not a 100% hetero. Investing $150 or even $500 in testing is pocket change compared with what he would save in time and money by not having to raise and prove out a "normal" for a couple of generations!

Regards

[bcherps]

There is one arguement that a little guy put forth about it thought that I thought was kinda funny. Showed me he was thinking but not in a good way.

It seems that most of us would be very gung-ho about getting these testing procedures worked out for each morph but look at a clutch of clown poss het ghost balls you just produced. They are really pricey you get the test done and you figure out which ones to keep for yourself, but now the rest of your "poss hets' are proven to be just clowns. Still a good payday but you have knocked of several grand off each one that turned out to not be poss het. So instead of tellling the public you had them tested, you sell them as poss hets anyway to get the extra cash, the breeding was there to make poss hets, the parental lineage is there to produce hets, but you are skimming them before they hit the public.

This scenario and the scenario we talked to before about forging documents is just a drop in the bucket in scams around this. Also a breeder could sell true hets, then a scummy buyer, sends a clip in from a normal, gets a normal result and trashes the original seller or wants a refund when in fact he has the real het tucked away in the corner.

If there is a system someone will find a way around it. So to use this as a public selling point it would be difficult, for in house purposes it would be invaluable. Also it could help on the legal end of cases like TSE and his het scam. We have had to wait years and let people have mutliple clutches to proven TSE was selling crap. Well if we had this technology right now, I could test all TSE derived animals and hand the judge a portfolio of 200-300-400 proofs that he was selling fakes, instead of a 1/2 dozen in a clutch here and 9 in a clutch over there as we wait for them to be produced.

And as morphs get cheaper the price gets prohibitive to the public, and then will get so that it would be cheaper just to pay the extra 30 bucks from a true blue breeder who has been in the game for 20 years than getting that super buy from joe bloe flea market guy.

Anyone interested in my progress can keep in touch with me through my email bcherps@yahoo.com.

Thanks
ben

[The BoidSmith]

Anyone interested in my progress can keep in touch with me through my email bcherps@yahoo.com.

Ben,

I'm really interested. The more we "play around" with this, the closer we will be to a fool proof solution. Of course, and as you say, there are people who are not interested in such a test as it would ruin the "possible heterozygous market". But in my opinion this is what the future holds, unless of course something happens with the market, and the overall value of reptiles drops to what it used to be in the pre-mutant era.

Regards.

[bcherps]

Well, many of the ball morphs have gone from 5k last fall, to 2500 after the 06 production, and are now 500-900 without the 07's out yet. So who knows what they will be. Also, we are looking for several dozen mutations on a couple of different genes anyhow. Things that seem similiar to our eyes may be vastly different on the genetic level and somethings that are very different may have common areas where the genome is not normal.

Pied, ringer, calico/sugar all may be the gene, same mutation with different amounts of code messed up. But something like albino and caramel albino may be completely different genes


Also some of the designers where the actual animals that produce them may have look alikes is going to be a problem. I.e granites. I have an enitre rack of granites that I got in 03, they are all different than the granites I see on the web and at every show. Then I hear people say that a granite has to have this and that, but this mark over hear doesn't matter if this one here is present-but in all actuality how many of them have produced ebonies, and how many people proffessing about granites have produced ebonies at home? It may turn out that what is responsible for combining with the yellow belly may be something completely different than what is causing in a granite ball having a granite pattern

We'll see, but usually science turns a few "commo knowledge ideals" upside down as new things are discovered.

thanks
ben

[Paul Fisher]

How about the question of sperm retention?
In ball pythons there have been a few reports along the lines of breeding a pastel male to normal female one year, then breeding her to a Mojave the next year and getting a few mojaves and a pastel in the clutch. Sperm retention seems to be a reality based on these anecdotal reports.
There was some speculation that a paternity-type test would be cheaper-easier than actually checking the genotype.
So, I bred several het piebald females to het males for the past few years… Hatched out some pieds and everything is moving along nicely. Now I’ve raised up a few male pieds for breeders. How can I absolutely, 100% guarantee that the normal-looking offspring from this breeding season will be 100% het? With the possibility of sperm retention, it would seem a bit of a risk to make such a guarantee.
Sure, if about half of the offspring are piebalds I will know my pied males did their job, but I won’t necessarily know that all the other hatchlings are 100% het. To me, the option of a paternity test would be of significant value. Please let us know if there is anything new to report on this topic.
Paul Fisher

[bcherps]

Your questions/concerns are valid. A paternity is simpler, and has been currently available technology wise for a couple of years. I don't know any company offering it as a standard service though.

Quick and dirty answer-if you are breeding the females to a homozygous male(and the morph is well documented, proven to be viable, and has had no suprises elsewhere), then the paternity test is accurate

this post is very long winded and comes back to point at the end.

However, if you are dealing with a new morph, undocumented/low produced doubles-triples-or more, mutations with other effects to the body other than pattern or color. The only way to absolutely confirm is to breed it and produce living proof. The next statements are very very very broad as you could write several text books, college classes, and several Ph D. worthy projects out of what is really needed to prove the following or at least outline it correctly.

There are all sorts of other things at play into genetics, and embrionic development that are not cut and dry. So you could produce a het, that tests positive as being a het genotypically, but due to other factors(such as embryonic lethality, floxed genes, down regulation, sympathetic factors, secondary mutation) you never see a mutant/visual morph produced from it. We have a few lines of mice like this that the lab I am in works with. We have to bring the gene in through the male side or it is embryonically lethal. We also have other lines of mice that when we breed het to het, we only see the mutation if a second and different gene mutation is there that allows the first mutation to express.

Or (broad generalization here) in pied, you have a 90% and a 10% white-whats the difference? They are both the same genotype, however, one animals ability to produce normal coloration and pattern was severely reduced and the other wasn't. This could(broad speculations here) be due to how early in development that the cells/hormones/chemicals that derive normal color are blocked. Also some pieds the "normal" areas are normal, other pieds have "normal areas" coloration and pattern that are really aberrant. Is this(broad speculation) the area of epithelial tissue that was effected genetically and going to be white, but then surrounding epithelial cells had a sympathetic effect in embryonic development and tried to "fix" the area?

In embryology the parents genes are a starting point, and external factors can shift/effect what happens next until the point of birth. In animals that carry the babies full term things like diet and the toxins contained within, inhaled pollutants, depression-which effects hormones, micronutrients all can affect the outcome a baby. Well in reptiles that lay eggs we see all of the above but also then through in temperature, humidity of the eggs environment, co2/o2 saturation in the eggs environment can also shift the outcome of a baby.

Also in ball pythons, corns, and leopard geckos there is a lot of mutations that have names that are super similiar, and may be the same mutation but with a slightly varied set of background dna or modifier genes. So our human definitions/names may be causing us to unduly put things into wrong categories, or incorrectly relate some animals. Like pied and calico, both have something that causes scales to be white, it is organized in pied and dispersed in calico. It may be the same mechanism with a different secondary change , or it may be completely different mechanism that shows up as similiar phenotypes

Also random mutation can pop up at anytime that does who knows what, and isn't always visable/phenotypic so we can never rule that out. So you may have a cut and dry breeding that suddenly turns out new looking offspring, or suddenly blocks the mutation that has been passed down unchanged for 10 generations.
For example: I have a massive but young female boa that has this great big old head that reminds me of a bulldog. I breed her every year to a male albino that has very thin and refined features, but yet most of the babies come out with block heads. So I cannot say whether the animals will produce block headed babies 2 or 10 or 40 generations from now-only that I bet I get a bunch of block heads this year.(new co-dom right LOL) Although rattlesnake guys have well documented that a baby EBD head will grow proportionally to what you are feeding it. Lots of little meals equals a little head, infrequent large meals and you get a big head.

So just becuase you breed a pied to a normal does not Absolutely 100% guarantee that you will have het offspring that can in turn produce pieds. However, being a snake person, and a person of odds, I would be shocked if any of the above variables happened and you didn't produce 100% hets. Pieds have been bred enough and in enough species(people, horses, several species of birds, a couple species of snake, lots of rodents) that we are almost guaranteed that a pied x normal breeding will result in hets that can eventually produce pieds.

Back to the retained sperm issue. In my opinion a mixed litter is very rare on the whole. Yes, we have heard about it, we have also heard about parthenogenisis for a long time, and bicephalic snakes. I have seen multiple examples of both. However, between my own colony and 3 of my closests friends I see almost 600 clutches per year. But if you figure the number of clutches intentionally produced, accidentally produced, and gravid females that are imported and drop of all the species we see. The number of each of these aberrancies is very very small.

However, an easier, and probably less expensive way to go about it is to
stand behind your animals. Keep good records, know what you bred(don't get to the fall of 07 and go what did I breed this girl to last year), keep photos of your babies and sales record so in three years you don't get a reverse scam on you.

Sorry that there is about a million topics in here, I went to the coffee shop just before logging on.LOL

Thanks
ben cole

[Paul Fisher]

Thanks Ben, high octane coffee there but lots of interesting information! I enjoyed the read!
It may be worthwhile to kick the idea around with some horse & dog people about actually getting the test done with snakes. I imagine we would need a good baseline sample group to verify accuracy of a paternity test for snakes. That would cost some $ and may get back to Dan's original inquiry about what would it be worth to us. Interesting topic though...
BTW, I keep lots of pictures and documentation!
Paul

[bcherps]

Many of the genes currently worked with show good conservation(similiar dna strands no matter the species, or very similiar in a group of species). However, color and patterning of the skin has not been looked at a lot becuase it is not a major problem in people that cuases early death or has been linked to other traits.

Say you found that a pied mouse of such and such line proved to also have a heart defect, and that the pied coloration could not be seperated away from the heart defect then you betcha there would be some funding.

Thanks
ben cole

[akaangela]

Did this go any where? Are we closer to genetic testing? I know this is an old thread but it really interests me. It would be worth it to me to be able to tell if my "poss het" was or was not as I have very limited space and don't want to loose 2-4 years with an animal that is not what I think it is. So sorry to bring up an old thread but I was just wondering.

[bcherps]

I have not done anything recently. I am not spending as much time in the lab as I used to and have been so busy outside of work I have not gone in after hours to do anything.


the simple deal is to buy from credible breeders with a track record of producing the animals you are looking for.


Thanks
ben

[Kaiyudsai]

Before you can consider genetic testing.... research need to be done to map the genomes and identify all of these markers.... this would be more expensive than the human genome project....it will never be possible

there is only one way to avoid being ripped off.... Buy from people you trust 150 %.... I would never buy from a random person through an add.... because they wont have to answer for anything for 5 years


Also keep in mind that even 100 % hets can be bred together and still produce only normals...... if the odds go that way......

As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......

[crotalusadamanteus]

As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......

Well, I agree with most of your statement, but, retarded sounding or not, that's a legitimate term for offspring coming from two parents that are 100% het. Each offspring has that 66% chance of being 100% het.

[Paul Fisher]

All of my albinos originate from 50% possible hets I bought...
This year I hatched out 17 pieds from 66% possible het females that proved out for me. If an honest person is advertising possible het animals, I would question the intelligence of those who won't consider them...
Paul Fisher
Pied Peddler

[ReptileJay]

Before you can consider genetic testing.... research need to be done to map the genomes and identify all of these markers.... this would be more expensive than the human genome project....it will never be possible

there is only one way to avoid being ripped off.... Buy from people you trust 150 %.... I would never buy from a random person through an add.... because they wont have to answer for anything for 5 years


Also keep in mind that even 100 % hets can be bred together and still produce only normals...... if the odds go that way......

As far as 66% hets....... THat is the most retarted crap ever.... If you can't guarantee it, don't advertise it......


WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?

[Kaiyudsai]

WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?

I left you an IM. ReptileJay... because this sort of crap should be kept that way. Isn't there enough drama in the forums


I stand by my views

[Kaiyudsai]

Well, I agree with most of your statement, but, retarded sounding or not, that's a legitimate term for offspring coming from two parents that are 100% het. Each offspring has that 66% chance of being 100% het.

Let me rephrase that....... To sell an animal for an exorbent price because it has a chance of being something......... thats retarded

[Kaiyudsai]

WOW... to be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to start with this post...
How exactly do you figure that it would "be more expensive than the human genome project" to map the genome of a snake? You are aware that there have been quite a few MAJOR advancements in genetics research since the HGP was "completed" right? To say that it will "Never be Possible" to use genome mapping to determine whether a snake contains a gene or not is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've heard in quite a long time. In reality it would be VERY possible to do such a thing. They can map an individual's (human) genome these days for around $5000 - $10000 per genome, and that cost just goes down yearly.
Yes there would have to be a great deal of research done, and MANY genomes would have to be mapped in order to compile an accurate database from which mutations could be compared and studied, but to say that it would cost more than the human genome project is an ABSURD over-exaggeration of cost.

As far as advertising 50% or 66% POS HET animals, that is the ONLY way to accurately describe animals produced from 100% HET x Normal or 100% HET x 100% HET parents respectively. There is no way to determine outside of breeding to determine whether the offspring are HET or not (at this point at least). But there is either a 50% or 66% chance that EVERY one of those babies are in fact HET for the given trait. The odds that a baby is normal from a clutch produced from breeding 2 100% HET animals together is only 33%, so although it is possible to get all "Normal" babies, it is not likely. HOWEVER, you cannot physically SEE if the babies are HET or not, therefor they are considered 66% POS HET.
Before you go on a forum calling things "retarded", perhaps a little BASIC research is in order?


Screw it.. I will explain myself..

1 more expensive than human genome mapping ---- why

you would have to map a huge sample size of each genus, species and subspecies to get some sort of reference standard for each species. humans are 1 species...and look how much work that took

after that you would have to sample individual animals within each species, subspecies etc to locate markers for traits(morphs etc)

you would have to keep this testing to date with the rapidly moving morph industry for any of this to actually have value for this purpose(which produces hundreds of new morphs each year)

you would have to find money to perform all of this testing to establish the basic gene maps..... which would probably cost millions or more..... and all that the expense before you can sell a service(say charging a person in the reptile industry to test their snake) which wouldn't be a little 20-30- dollar test. Simple genetic tests in a hospital laboratory say for Down's syndrome cost's 500-3000(according to Acadiana Reference Laboratories and depends on the sequencing method used)..... and that is on an established genome

WHY??? because we cant read the genes until we've figured out how they are arranged, what chromosomes are carrying what alleles.. etc... there has been some testing , mainly on the University level... but this information is not at all consolidated.......Permission would have to be given to use this research for such a purpose

GENETICS ARE MORE ADVANCED YES,,,,but you cant just take a sample....plug it into the snake morph database like they do in CSI... LOL

Analytical science and quantitative genetic analysis take vast research, huge sample sizes, and hours of tedious manual labor.......

OK so why would a genetic company take on this project???? there is certainly not much return...... there may be a few high end breeders that might benefit from this sort of service, but in most cases the test would cost more than the snake itself..

It's safe to say there are more pressing medical issues with a far better return I might add.....

[crotalusadamanteus]

Actually, I just saw a special on the science channel, where they have new techniques for this stuff, basically exploding the chromosomes into fragments with certain enzymes or whatever, and letting the new computing power we have these days, reassemble the pieces into the proper order, and it's is taking a fraction of the time that it once did. If we have come that far in this field, it stands to reason, that isolating a given trait is the very next step, and certain to not be nearly as expensive as it once was.

And actually, they are already isolating certain traits in some animals, removing them, and implanting these traits into other species. One of Japans best sellers are glowing fish, that have been genetically altered to be a bright neon glowing color. They can even make it be the color they want.

Personally, with all the technological advancements we've had the last decade, I see this sort of testing as a distinct possibility, and maybe even becoming quite affordable before long.

[deborahbroadus]

Sammy

Do me a favor and put this conversation somewhere, where you won't forget it. I will never forget Fauna, and the people here, and what they have done for me.
Someday, I'll take a picture of my study, and you'll see the hides of Texas scammers nailed to the wall by the new Texas Hammer..... :)
I promise you, the turnip will bleed.......


Lawyers aren't licensed to work outside of their states are they? Will you be? I would certainly hire you!:)

[ReptileJay]

Actually, I just saw a special on the science channel, where they have new techniques for this stuff, basically exploding the chromosomes into fragments with certain enzymes or whatever, and letting the new computing power we have these days, reassemble the pieces into the proper order, and it's is taking a fraction of the time that it once did. If we have come that far in this field, it stands to reason, that isolating a given trait is the very next step, and certain to not be nearly as expensive as it once was.

And actually, they are already isolating certain traits in some animals, removing them, and implanting these traits into other species. One of Japans best sellers are glowing fish, that have been genetically altered to be a bright neon glowing color. They can even make it be the color they want.

Personally, with all the technological advancements we've had the last decade, I see this sort of testing as a distinct possibility, and maybe even becoming quite affordable before long.


The new technique you're referring to is commonly referred to as the "Shotgun Approach" and was developed by J.Craig Venter while the HGP was underway. Unfortunately it took quite a while for this method of sequencing to catch on, since it went against what was "popular" at the time. Eventually, other scientists realized that there was no way they could compete with Venter's company without adapting his approach as their own as well. Sequencing is now pretty much limited by the speed at which computers can arrange the fragments.

I agree that it would be easy (albeit a lot of work) to develop a database in order to determine mutations in almost any animal.

[Tuxus]

Lawyers aren't licensed to work outside of their states are they? Will you be? I would certainly hire you!:)

Lawyers in some cases can practice out of state, it depends on state law, some require them to take the state's bar where as others permit licensed out of state lawyers to practice law if they have done so in another state for several years and the new state's highest court approves them. Another way this may happen I know of is in some states an out of state lawyer can represent a client with a motion to appear pro hac vice.

As for paying more for 100% reassurance on a 100% het....$0, why should I need such a thing if the selling is already guaranteeing 100%, if I needed such than I'm obviously buying from some shady character I shouldn't be.

[crotalusadamanteus]

The new technique you're referring to is commonly referred to as the "Shotgun Approach" and was developed by J.Craig Venter while the HGP was underway. Unfortunately it took quite a while for this method of sequencing to catch on, since it went against what was "popular" at the time. Eventually, other scientists realized that there was no way they could compete with Venter's company without adapting his approach as their own as well. Sequencing is now pretty much limited by the speed at which computers can arrange the fragments.

Yup, sounds just about what they said on the show too.


As for paying more for 100% reassurance on a 100% het....$0, why should I need such a thing if the selling is already guaranteeing 100%, if I needed such than I'm obviously buying from some shady character I shouldn't be.

I think it was meant for possible hets. Face it, they are either het, or they ain't. And if the testing was available and affordable, there would be no more possible hets, because the test would say either they are, or are not.

[Tuxus]

crotalusadamanteus, about the testing, that was my thought as well.

[Kaiyudsai]

Yup, sounds just about what they said on the show too.




I think it was meant for possible hets. Face it, they are either het, or they ain't. And if the testing was available and affordable, there would be no more possible hets, because the test would say either they are, or are not.

Yeah you're right....I guess we got off track a little...... thankfully I'm not a morph breeder so I never have to worry about this issue... I have this crazy idea that Locality bcc boas will be really hard to get one day, with the morph market diluting bloodlines.