Touchy Subject

[homegrownherps]

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

I personally have dealt with one breeder who has been dealing in reptiles for over 30 years. I purchased some animals from him and they came covered in mites.
And his excuse was that they came from another breeder, and he didn’t see them before they were shipped.

He made good on it, but there’s no excuse for shipping out mite-infested animals. No matter who you are or how long you have been in the reptile industry.

And so for the reason I listed above, I did not go public with this info. I also purchased animals from this person on two other occasions and the quality of the animals was horrible. But he always made good on them. So does that make it OK?
It seems like as long as the breeder/dealer makes good on it, that smooths it over. But fact still remains that he/she actually has had bad dealings.

(FYI- this happened a few years ago, and will NEVER purchase animals again from him).

So it seems breeders/sellers are allowed incidents like these because they have so many satisfied customers and the unsatisfied customers really don’t matter that much to raise red flags for future buyers.

Just wondering what others think of this.

[The BoidSmith]

It seems like as long as the breeder/dealer makes good on it, that smooths it over. But fact still remains that he/she actually has had bad dealings.

That’s the personal issue I have with the phrase: “What’s important is how you react to a problem when the problem shows up”. Yes, there is some truth to that statement, but in some instances the “eraser seems to be going ahead of the pencil” if you know what I mean. A bad deal once in a while can be forgiven, but something’s not right when they become the norm, and the seller has to be fixing one mistake after another.

Regards.

[norsmis]

I agree. Just because someone "fixes" a problem that could have been prevented doesn't make it right. I see too many incidents and experienced a few myself of big and small breeders sending sick, mite infested or misrepresented animals and then "making it right" later. Why do this in the first place. I refuse to sell an animal that isn't perfect even if the buyer still wants it. I won't even offer an animal that isn't perfect. My reputation is worth more than a few quick bucks.

[homegrownherps]

I guess I was looking for more input on this matter.

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

[The BoidSmith]

I have found over the years that when people have “bad” dealings with (some not all) well-known top name breeders, that they are not so willing to announce or post it on a public forum.
I have talked to people that have had these bad dealings with well known top name breeders, and when they just mention their bad experience, others chime in with how great the breeder is and how long they have been dealing with reptiles, or how great their animals are. And on certain forums it’s almost like signing your own death warrant, you get bombarded from other people who swear that that breeder would never do such a thing.

You are right, and it has happened to a certain extent in this site. But in my opinion it's not only fear of retaliation. There's also the fact that some people feel that any problem was their fault (due to inexperience) and not that of the "highly reputable breeder". How could he be wrong when so many people back him up?

[homegrownherps]

I noticed that "beginners", being new to reptiles are really intimidated by some of the forums. Just think how much more participation there would be if they weren't so intimidated.
I see it allot ...when you see something like this;

"I know this sounds stupid..but"

They should feel the need to have to make that statement, they already feel stupid and didn't even post yet.

And I see responses like this ....

"Maybe you should buy a book"
"Don't you think you should have learned about it BEFROE you got the animals"

Those suggestins may be a good idea, but its obvious that its already past that.

Just ranting.

[The BoidSmith]

Just ranting.

Not really, you are right on target. Furthermore one of the things that some people like to do is demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that the husbandry practices of those questioned were inadequate. That puts them immediately in the defensive and or avoid posting at all. That's why I was saying earlier that they feel that posting about well-known breeders is a loose-loose situation for them.

[Skunky]

Fom reading the BOI quite a bit, I will agree with HGH...very often I read a thread in which an individual has had a negative experience with a "big-name", posts a thread, and then often gets harrassed and abused a fair deal by folks who wonder if there's "an ulterior motive to the negative post".

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.

I do agree that sometimes everyone has a bad day, and maybe a transaction doesnt go smoothly, or something else goes wrong..it's going to happen to everyone in the business once in a while. What I disagree with is the vehemency of some of the responses in retaliation to a negative (not derogatory) experience.

[darkbloodwyvern]

I think everyone has a bad day, but shipping out multiple animals that have to be "fixed" is definately something that should be posted on the BOI. I know it is hard to go up against a big name, but just having pictures and not sounding like a jerk seems to help. But yeah, i see too mnay people's experiences downplayed when we should be considering what we would think if we recieved the same poor quality animal or item, especially from someone we trust.
I also think that most of the threads i have read recently seem to be somewhat split both ways, with some berating the seller, and othere berating the buyer, and some more reasonable people trying to consider both sides of the fence. I think there are a lot of suspicious people here, mostly because we all get a lot of crud from sellers buyers and random idiots online and in real life. It is difficult to be a responsible owner and recieve a badly shipped or managed animal, and it is difficult if not impossible to determine whether the buyer or seller is 100% trustworthy and honest, because people are not perfect.
I think a lot more people should post their actual expereinces on the BOI whether or not they feel they are "stupid" or going to have to defend themselves (which i don't think they should have to do if they are clear, honest and just trying to fix the problem rather than whine) against other's accusations. I have not yet had a bad experience directly, but I would certainly reconsider doing a deal with someone who is putting the eraser before the pencil as is were. It is not worth my time to deal with someone who I have to anticipate wasting my time with that kind of behavior.
If I feel the need to ask someone if they are a beginner, i would rather ask them to describe what happened more in detail, the rest of the forums are for helping new owners, the BOI is for bussiness, and should take seriously those who are seriously trying to help out other buyers and sellers.

[Dennis Hultman]

Fom reading the BOI quite a bit, I will agree with HGH...very often I read a thread in which an individual has had a negative experience with a "big-name", posts a thread, and then often gets harrassed and abused a fair deal by folks who wonder if there's "an ulterior motive to the negative post".

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.


While I agree to some extent, Anyone posting on the BOI also needs to present evidence or they will be taken to task. "Big Breeder" or not. I can't tell you how many times that a thread starter ended up being the person in the wrong or just as culpable as the accused. Unwarranted posts happen all the time but have slowed considerably since membership was required to post.

I believe if someone feels that their experience is worthy of BOI post ( bad or good), they should make the post regardless of the person/business they are reporting on. Just have your facts in-hand.


I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one. If you feel it necessary to included the mistake that was corrected but in a good way, others will take note and also post. This way you can see a pattern in someones business without making unnecessary enemies over a one time honest mistake. You see it all the time.

-John Doe sent be a beautiful snake but it turned out to be a male and I ordered a female. He handled the situation great and refunded my money or sent me an extra snake.-


Then their are those who post but are too much a pacifist. I was reading a trader rating for someone while I was researching making a purchase. I hadn't decided yet and received negative feedback for this person privately from another source. So, I emailed someone that left the person a positive trader rating to ask them " How did the transaction go?" He said "OK". I then asked, "You stated in your positive post that he sent you something extra that you didn't expect?" He said, " yeah mites". :ack2: Not a good way to let people know you had a problem.

[Skunky]

I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one.

I agree with this Dennis. I think the problem though is that folks have different interpretations of what constitutes a Bad Guy thread. For some folks, this means a snake arriving a day late, while for others it means that the service and treatment have been unacceptable, or the quality of the snakes have been misrepresented.

Without any hard and fast rules for the BOI, it's pretty subjective as to how folks use the BOI.

[The BoidSmith]

On the other hand there have been individuals who were literally ripped off and came over for help and ended being the ones labeled bad guys. Sometimes the only mistake they made was being inexperienced and trying to tip the scale towards their side way too soon. Some made the mistake of trying to frame the guilty party with things that were not exactly 100% accurate. That was enough incentive for some to put them in the frying pan because of their failed attempt to exaggerate the issue. Going back to the initial topic I remember one vividly that happened not so long ago. The individual complained because he couldn’t get a timely reply from a well-known breeder. The tables turned around so fast he never knew what hit him. The “accused” party never even had to post in this site, and the “accuser” complaints were rapidly dismissed. It so happens that this person could’ve been a future asset for this site (anyone potentially is) but he was completely discouraged from ever posting again.

Regards

[Dennis Hultman]

On the other hand there have been individuals who were literally ripped off and came over for help and ended being the ones labeled bad guys. Sometimes the only mistake they made was being inexperienced and trying to tip the scale towards their side way too soon. Some made the mistake of trying to frame the guilty party with things that were not exactly 100% accurate. That was enough incentive for some to put them in the frying pan because of their failed attempt to exaggerate the issue. Going back to the initial topic I remember one vividly that happened not so long ago. The individual complained because he couldn’t get a timely reply from a well-known breeder. The tables turned around so fast he never knew what hit him. The “accused” party never even had to post in this site, and the “accuser” complaints were rapidly dismissed. It so happens that this person could’ve been a future asset for this site (anyone potentially is) but he was completely discouraged from ever posting again.

Regards
Maybe, I am reading wrong here. That should be enough incentive to ignore anything the person making false statements has to say. If you come to the BOI and try to deceive "framing" someone with misinformation and exaggerating details, you should be cooked to a crisp in the frying pan.

[The BoidSmith]

Maybe, I am reading wrong here. That should be enough incentive to ignore anything the person making false statements has to say. If you come to the BOI and try to deceive "framing" someone with misinformation and exaggerating details, you should be cooked to a crisp in the frying pan.

No, Dennis you are reading it exactly right. Yes, some people have exaggerated “details” as you say. In our zeal to look for those details we loose sight of the forest and let go the real person to blame. One example that comes to mind is one person that had received an animal “plagued” with mites when in reality it was only a few. But there are other examples that I can probably look through. Does it matter if there was one, two, or a thousand mites? No, the animal had mites, period. We then are hung up in the details of asking for pictures of the bag to do a “head count” of mites. We end up deciding that it was an exaggeration. Another case was the one of a sick python, the animal had been sent sick, there was no doubt about it, but we later discovered that the individual who received it was not that experienced and had not kept him at the required higher temperatures. In both cases WE lost sight of the main issue which was that the animals were no fit to be sold in the first place. That fact was diluted in a zillion other comments about how the “buyer” had tried to deceive the BOI members. Yes, sometimes the crime (exaggeration) and the subsequent punishment is not proportional to the original fault but still we process the victim and let go the criminal. No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

[homegrownherps]

Personally, I wouldnt be suprised if people didnt post for fear of being taken to task by steadfast believers in said breeder.

I have spoke w/ several people that chose not to post due to some of the reactions by other members here. Some of them do not even want to post on the discussion forum for the same reason. ( a beginner feeling intimidated).
Although I think Fauna is really not that bad, (discussion forum) compared to the “other” forum.



I also think that most of the threads i have read recently seem to be somewhat split both ways, with some berating the seller, and othere berating the buyer, and some more reasonable people trying to consider both sides of the fence.

When a thread is “split” both ways, does that mean since the seller, as a good guy - hasn’t done anything wrong? I have seen this in threads. Because he/she is a known good guy it seems it is MUCH harder to post about a bad deal.


It is difficult to be a responsible owner and recieve a badly shipped or managed animal, and it is difficult if not impossible to determine whether the buyer or seller is 100% trustworthy and honest, because people are not perfect.

True…even the experienced buyers get duped on occasion. And even known good guys have fallen by the wayside.

I think a lot more people should post their actual expereinces on the BOI whether or not they feel they are "stupid" or going to have to defend themselves (which i don't think they should have to do if they are clear, honest and just trying to fix the problem rather than whine) against other's accusations.

Unfortunately more times than not, the situation gets dissected rather than trying to get the problem “fixed”. Once this starts then the person reporting the bad deal or what have you, then finds he has to defend himself when he was the one who was wronged.



I also believe that an honest mistake that is corrected shouldn't warrant a bad guy thread. If anything, it should provoke a good one.

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”
I know when I pay for something; I want what I pay for, not something in place of.
I also want it in a timely manner; I shouldn’t have to wait more than two weeks for anything. (Unless special reasons apply). And I don’t want a sick animal or one with mites … whether its infested or it has one mite.
I got some rosy boas covered in mites from a very reputable breeder, and his excuse was “that they weren’t his and came from a friends house”
Hmmmm…first off, I thought I was buying from him – not his friend.
He didn’t even check the snakes before shipping; they were packed & shipped from the friend’s house. Why should any buyer have to deal with that nonsense?
I purchased from him because of his reputation.

[Dennis Hultman]

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”
I know when I pay for something; I want what I pay for, not something in place of.
I also want it in a timely manner; I shouldn’t have to wait more than two weeks for anything. (Unless special reasons apply). And I don’t want a sick animal or one with mites … whether its infested or it has one mite.
I got some rosy boas covered in mites from a very reputable breeder, and his excuse was “that they weren’t his and came from a friends house”
Hmmmm…first off, I thought I was buying from him – not his friend.
He didn’t even check the snakes before shipping; they were packed & shipped from the friend’s house. Why should any buyer have to deal with that nonsense?
I purchased from him because of his reputation.

It's a matter of degree. People are all different when it comes to reactions to problems. I don't believe I would have purchased a third time from someone that messed up my previous two orders. I also don't believe the scenario of sending snakes from someone else's collection is an "honest mistake". Sending mites to someone is not cool anyway you look at it.

When it comes to orders that I have placed with known "good guys", A shipping delay with merit is OK for me as long as the communication is there. I would like to think I am a reasonable person when it comes to some matters. Now, a shipping delay that has really no merit or that is prolonged to a unreasonable amount of time is another story.

[Dennis Hultman]

How many “mistakes” would you consider from a single seller before thinking …”jeez this is the third time I bought something from this guy and there’s yet another problem.”
Even though he “made it right”

Like I said in my first post. There is away to post it to see if it's a simple mistake or a pattern.

[Dennis Hultman]

In both cases WE lost sight of the main issue which was that the animals were no fit to be sold in the first place. That fact was diluted in a zillion other comments about how the “buyer” had tried to deceive the BOI members. Yes, sometimes the crime (exaggeration) and the subsequent punishment is not proportional to the original fault but still we process the victim and let go the criminal. No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

I disagree, Only because I know this thread you speak of. If in fact it was only a few not a "zillion", The buyer admitted to knowing that the snake had a few mites mites before the purchase. That fact alone or that 'exaggeration" was the whole case the buyer presented. "The snake had more mites than I thought."

I believe that both parties were addressed fairly in that thread.

[Dennis Hultman]

No system is perfect, we know that, but think about it and you will remember several similar instances.

Regards

I agree, and there have been many threads that my personal opinion was not that of the majority. I also know that when we are dealing with the reputations of people its much easier for a known person to have a little more leeway from their peers. I agree you can find many cases that support your statements. BUT, you can also find many cases that support the opposite. It can sometimes take 50 or more pages before the truth comes out. This only happens because people pay attention to the details.

[Dennis Hultman]

I disagree, Only because I know this thread you speak of. If in fact it was only a few not a "zillion", The buyer admitted to knowing that the snake had a few mites mites before the purchase. That fact alone or that 'exaggeration" was the whole case the buyer presented. "The snake had more mites than I thought."

I believe that both parties were addressed fairly in that thread.

Let me add a little here. I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thread. There have been several regarding mites. But if we are

If you agree to purchase an animal with mites. The animal arrives and you are unhappy because the animal has more mites than you thought. You as the buyer, In my opinion, have no reasonable expectation to believe that people will be sympathetic to your story. Both parties made mistakes in that situation. Both parties were addressed for their individual actions.

[The BoidSmith]

I disagree, Only because I know this thread you speak of. If in fact it was only a few not a "zillion", The buyer admitted to knowing that the snake had a few mites mites before the purchase. That fact alone or that 'exaggeration" was the whole case the buyer presented. "The snake had more mites than I thought."

And you have every right to disagree! ;) Maybe not the best example but we got hanged up on the fact that he willingly accepted a snake that had mites. The point being the snake should not have been shipped no matter how insistent the buyer was. The fault was not his for accepting the snake, it was shipping a snake with mites in the first place. Anyways, sometimes I do get tired of fighting the same fights over and over again, it's been too many years. Enough rambling for a couple of days, need a break!

Regards.

[kmurphy]

Often times I am very impressed with how some of the posters on the BOI weed through the crap and get to the meat of the matter.
Often the first few posts either blindly support the accuser or the accused, then relatively quickly, more pointed questions are asked and we get into it.
I remember one thread where a well thought of individual blasted a no-name because she had the gall to question him. In the end she was the one supported and her accuser just slinked away.
By the time the thread has winded its way down I feel that, most often, it ends right on target.

[Dennis Hultman]

Anyways, sometimes I do get tired of fighting the same fights over and over again, it's been too many years. Enough rambling for a couple of days, need a break!
Regards.


Dan, It's a good topic to discuss. I think you know, I value your opinion. We just see this topic a little differently.

[Dennis Hultman]

Unfortunately more times than not, the situation gets dissected rather than trying to get the problem “fixed”. Once this starts then the person reporting the bad deal or what have you, then finds he has to defend himself when he was the one who was wronged.


Yes, this is true. But let me ask you something. How are any of us suppose to know that the complaint is true without dissecting the post? If someone comes to the BOI and makes a statement like, Home Grown Herps has ripped them off! Should we immediately assume that everything they posted is true? Because if we do, by the time you actually address the thread there could be thirty posts saying that you treated that person so horrible that your reputation is shot and nobody should do business with you.

Sometimes, it's obvious who is being honest and sometimes not. That is why there needs to be someone probing for the truth. Eventually the truth finds its way out.
Are mistakes made? All the time! Is there a better system? I don't think so. Not in our community.

Just a hypothetical based in some reality.
Pretend this is a Bad Guy post on the BOI. It shouldn't be to hard because there have been several close to it.


- Dear BOI,
I just wanted to report that this guy is a very bad person to deal with. I know he has a good reputation with some of the people here and they have posted good transactions with him, but mine was horrible! I purchased a snake from him and it arrived dead! I first contacted him last week and we agreed on terms which included shipping. I waited with excitement for the driver to arrive. I was looking forward to seeing my new addition. The FedEx driver knocked on the door and when I opened the door I could already smell the stench from the box. Sure enough the snake was dead. I emailed him right away to tell him. I even took pictures and sent them. He told me he doesn't have a guarantee and will not replace my snake or give me a refund. This is a horrible person to do business with. Don't buy from him. Anyway, I found someone else to buy a sidewinder from but still need my refund.-


More than likely the first couple of responses would be.

1. That's horrible, You should receive a replacement or your money back right away!
2. That's bad business. Nobody should buy from this guy. I hope you get justice.
3. Hey, I had a good transaction with him. I don't know why he will not make good on your deal but I will contact him and let him know this thread is here.
4. Something must be wrong here. I have done business with him before and he is a great guy.

Then someone who is observing and looking at the actual details of the transactions will drop this point.

5. The FedEx driver knocked on your door? You didn't agree to ship Delta Dash? You mean to tell me that your here complaining about receiving a dead venomous snake that you illegally had shipped by ground? You endangered the lives of many and you also threatened to hurt the hobby we all enjoy. The media attention alone and the reaction from FedEx could
hurt the hobby/business for all of us.

Now this is a post I would make. It doesn't have anything do with the exact crime or bad business practice that the buyer is wanting us to address. The buyer maybe new to the forum or the hobby and will be put on the defensive until the seller joins the thread. If he ever does. Some people may see this as sidetracking the issue and the specific complaint. I do not. This is exactly what it means to self-police in this hobby. While it is true, that this seller not offering a replacement animal is wrong, the other issues in the post have a greater since of importance. At least to me. We don't reward or consider people who grossly commit a crime in everyday life.

Why should this hobby be any different?

[homegrownherps]

When some one comes to the BOI to report a bad deal they shouldn’t have to be “put on the defensive”. I agree that the truth should be the ultimate goal, but there also should be a limit as to how some people get treated.

And too many times the issue gets side tracked; I really don’t see the purpose of bringing up issues that have no relevance to the original issue.
If there are other issues than they should be addressed in another thread, one specifically for the “other issue”.

And I don’t think anyone should be treated differently if they commit a crime in this business as opposed to another business…. A crime is a crime, no matter what business your in, and should be treated accordingly.

[Scott Ashton]

When some one comes to the BOI to report a bad deal they shouldn’t have to be “put on the defensive”. I agree that the truth should be the ultimate goal, but there also should be a limit as to how some people get treated.

No, but they should be able to defend their accusation by providing details, pertinent communications/documentation, etc.

Once you make your case on the BOI it is open to scrutiny just as it would be in a court of law.

I agree with the premise that the stature of a breeder/business is a factor in discouraging some from coming forward, the TSE thread is proof, especially with some of the more recent activity. Moreover, I think that posting a "bad Guy" thread on the BOI is generally an angst evoking event. And that is NOT necessarily a bad thing. I'm not saying a breeder/business' stature should make a difference in whether or not someone comes forward with a negative experience. Rather, anyone contemplating posting a negative event on the BOI must carefully consider their case before bringing it forth.

That said, I think the TSE situation may actually be a catalyst for how people handle future problems with the "Big Guys".

[homegrownherps]

I am by no means knocking the BOI, I just think some people get a little to extreme. I think the truth can and should be found out.

And I think that Fauna/BOI is an asset, I would much rather see it the way it is now than not at all.

[Scott Ashton]

I am by no means knocking the BOI, I just think some people get a little to extreme. I think the truth can and should be found out.

And I think that Fauna/BOI is an asset, I would much rather see it the way it is now than not at all.

Indeed, things can get "hairy" sometimes.

But I think in the end it has a tendency (sometimes with a gentle nudge from management) to right itself.

Internet communication tends to go off the deep end, I believe largely due to the fact that characteristics of interpersonal communication like intonation, facial expressions, and gestures are absent. Also, with such a large distribution, the Internet provides exposure to many personalities, some of which appear not to get out much. :hehe:

[Skunky]

When some one comes to the BOI to report a bad deal they shouldn’t have to be “put on the defensive”. I agree that the truth should be the ultimate goal, but there also should be a limit as to how some people get treated.

I definitely agree with this, if I have a genuine complaint or concern, I shouldn't have to defend myself and look like the troublemaker. I understand that you need to get the facts straight, but often that treads a fine line of accusation against the thread starter.

Ultimately, what I intended as being a thread warning others about my poor experience ends up in me looking like an idiot. This I disagree vehemently with.

[shrap]

Most often people get scrutinized when they do not give complete facts or their story is just not adding up.

People who come and make a complaint with detailed and accurate information are rarely attacked. They may have questions asked of them, but that is only right and fair. Otherwise one could come and make false claims about anyone and not have to provide any proof what so ever. The burden of proof is on the accuser. That is why it is so important to handle as much communication as possible via email. So you have proof.

[Dennis Hultman]

I am by no means knocking the BOI, I just think some people get a little to extreme. I think the truth can and should be found out.

And I think that Fauna/BOI is an asset, I would much rather see it the way it is now than not at all.


We are all in agreement on that.

[homegrownherps]

What about when your dealing with a well known breeder and you don't save your emails because the LAST thing you expect from a top/well known breeder is to be taken, use TSE as an example.

I let (one breeder in particular) take a pair of, at the time high end corns. Agreed to wait on payment until after his eggs started hatching (the wait was to be about 2 months).....well, 6 months later I practically had to threaten to come to his home and do what it took to get paid. He paid a little here and a little there, and eventually got paid..but why should we sometimes have to go to those extremes. Not to mention I would see this breeder at most of the Florida Expos.

Our transaction was 100% over the phone, how does one prove "phone calls" on the BOI? Since theres no proof - am I now the bad guy because I have no proof to offer ?

[shrap]

It dont make you the bad guy at all. It just helps to have as much proof as possible. Just like in a court of law, if you have no proof to back up your claims it is hard to decide who is telling the truth. It is purely relying on each persons word.

[homegrownherps]

It dont make you the bad guy at all. It just helps to have as much proof as possible. Just like in a court of law, if you have no proof to back up your claims it is hard to decide who is telling the truth. It is purely relying on each persons word.

Ok, so me not being that well known, and certainly not a "Top" breeder - if I were to make a claim on not getting paid by a top breeder for animals given to him on good faith just because he was a top breeder as well as someone whom I have dealt with in the past with no problems, and also know of many others who have done so w/o any complications.

Would I get the benefit of the doubt w/ no proof to offer, or will the breeder have the benefit because he is well known as a good guy?

I know there are a few people here that would vouch for me and there are many other that do not come here that would as well. But I am certain that the top breeder knows more people than I do in this hobby/industry.

So would it come down to who knows who ?

[shrap]

People really dont care what the bystanders have to say as far as them cheer leading one side or the other. It really dont mean anything.

Well you BOTH would be listened to. And people would try to draw the truth out. Way more often than not the liar is going to trip himself up somewhere along the line. The Bill Leverton thread is a perfect example. Bill tripped himself up so many times it was laughable. And Bill was a "Good Guy" and well respected up until that point.

[Dennis Hultman]

Ok, so me not being that well known, and certainly not a "Top" breeder - if I were to make a claim on not getting paid by a top breeder for animals given to him on good faith just because he was a top breeder as well as someone whom I have dealt with in the past with no problems, and also know of many others who have done so w/o any complications.

Would I get the benefit of the doubt w/ no proof to offer, or will the breeder have the benefit because he is well known as a good guy?

I know there are a few people here that would vouch for me and there are many other that do not come here that would as well. But I am certain that the top breeder knows more people than I do in this hobby/industry.

So would it come down to who knows who ?

Jim, I understand your concern here. I think it only lends credibility for the need sometimes to examine posts and ask the necessary questions. You see its human nature for those to trust the word of those they know or have had good experiences with. So when you see a thread like the one you are describing and the accused is denying the claims, that's when some questions that are a little provoking come in.

More often than not, as Sammy stated, those questions will draw out the truth.