Returned Snake at Herp Show

[homegrownherps]

Here a issue that I have had to deal with recently, and I have not seen it discussed here yet.

What to do in the situation when a customer purchases a reptile (snake) from you at a show, and returns later with it dead or near dead.

And they tell you "its just died" !

I would like some input on what others would do or suggest in this instance.

[shrap]

Jim,

Exactly when is "later"? Later in the day at the show? A month later? How much time are we actually talking from the time the person took the animal and brought it back?

[homegrownherps]

The snake was purchased between 10:00 A.M & 11:00 A.M. - and was brought back about 3:45 P.M. same day.

[Serpwidgets]

I would at least consider refunding their money, but there's no way I'd give them another snake to kill. (I wonder what the odds are that they left it in the car to cook...) :ack2:

[kmurphy]

It must be a little awkward to have someone bring a dead snake to your table.
It depends upon the situation. If the person is a newbie and the animal not too expensive I would just replace it along with some very detailed instructions.
I guess there is some assumption that the people who buy at shows are somewhat experienced and certainly, if things are busy, there isn't a lot of time to talk. To me that's a risk you take at shows. Sometimes the buyer has absolutely no clue what they are doing. If we didn't pass on a little care advice are we to blame the purchaser?? In a perfect world people wouldn't buy a live animal without knowing how to take care of it but, as we all know, that don't hold true with reptiles.

[homegrownherps]

I would at least consider refunding their money, but there's no way I'd give them another snake to kill. (I wonder what the odds are that they left it in the car to cook...) :ack2:

Well in this situation , I would have offered them an 2006 baby for free or another 2005 baby for half the price. But when they came back they were rude, screaming and yelling at us and did nothing but make threats.
With that I told them take off.

It was a classic case of over heating the snake.

[reptilebreeder]

I wouldn't have given them a refund. There is no way a snake is going to die that fast unless they killed it. Idiots probably left it in the car. I would have told them that my refund policy doesn't have an idiot waver, and that they have no business being here(expo), as they should not have any living animals under their care. I know accidents happen, I accidently killed a $50 shrimp that I had gotten for my reef tank, but the difference is I know by no standard of business ethics, morality, or common sense, was it anybody's fault but my own, and to even think one should get a refund or replacement when that happens is beyond idiotic.

I know "we" need to educate people, represent the industry, etc. which I would do if they came back and said something like "we accidently killed this" or "what happened?", I would explain what probably happened, and depending on their attitude would have probably given them a replacement, but when peope do it in the manner as described.........I'll tell them to pack sand.

[kmurphy]

I know "we" need to educate people, represent the industry, etc. which I would do if they came back and said something like "we accidently killed this" or "what happened?", I would explain what probably happened, and depending on their attitude would have probably given them a replacement, but when peope do it in the manner as described.........I'll tell them to pack sand.

Actually I agree with this more than my own post. If they had an attitude then I would have told them to take a hike.

[reptilebreeder]

and to even think one should get a refund or replacement when that happens is beyond idiotic.Just want to clarify this part of my statement, especially for the ones who have a 100% refund policy or "the customer is always right" policy. When I say to "even think one should get a refund, is beyond idiotic", I'm not talking about other posters who say they would give one, or recommend that one be given, I'm talking about the person who killed the animal, thinking and demanding that "this needs to be taken care of".

[The BoidSmith]

I agree with Charles. The only prerrequisite for a live animal to die is just to be alive in the first place. Things happen and reptiles can die anytime. But if the animal was doing OK while in the show something odd happened between then and a few hours later. Considering it's summer, temperature could've very well been the culprit.

Regards.

[homegrownherps]

I guess I should elaborate on the whole story.



On Sat. 6/24/06 we attended the Jacksonville, FL show held by Repticon for
the first time. The traffic was steady and we did pretty well. Our first sale
was to a woman, her son and her mother. The woman was in a Motorized wheel
chair but got out of it often while her son drove around in it through out
the show. The group came back several times, trying to make a decision
between two snakes, one was a $15 Anerythristic (black) 2006 corn and a
$50.00 Motley X Creamsicle OK 2005 corn. They finally decided to purchase
both animals. Side note the Anery came with a small plastic carrying
container.

Throughout the show we were very busy and all seemed to be going well. As
we were packing up, the woman's son comes up to our table with the yearling
in the container that came with the Anery and said we sold him a dead/sick snake.
He was very accusatory and immediately put us on the defensive. I explained it looked
like the animal had been cooked, left out in the heat.... The boys mother
comes storming in (no longer in need of the wheelchair) and begins to
threaten, scream, accuse and make a scene.

I've been working with reptiles for quite some time and can tell when a snake has been
affected by heat. This animal had been left somewhere hot. After arguing
with the woman and her threatening me I did not offer her anything but her
snake back. She said she just wanted the container that came with the other
snake, so we gave it to her. She promptly opened the container and
viciously slammed it down - upside down onto the table leaving the snake and gravel in a
pile. After she stormed back out, we began cleaning up the mess she left
behind and discovered in great horror that the poor animal was still alive!

With no hopes or expectations we gathered the animal up and put it in a
container to take it home. When we arrived home, amazed to see she was still
alive, we promptly put her in some water to soak. Within in an hour she began
to react and move around again.

Since the show the woman emailed up apologizing for her attitude. She was
very polite,
if she had only been that way when she came back we probably would have
offered a 2006 corn with similar coloration or another 2005 at half price, but she didn’t.

So since she was attempting to be diplomatic we responded in the same way
and explained to her that the "dead" snake she so viciously slammed on the
table was in fact alive and doing as well as can be expected, we even sent
her pictures. For the next couple of days the pleasantry emails went back
and forth and we had come to an arrangement that she would p/u the snake at
the Daytona Show in August.

Since she had made such a big scene and the show and lodged a complaint with
the promoter we asked that she contact the promoter to advise them of the
resolution.

Throughout all of her emails she did not once admit she left the snake in
the heat, or did anything to cause the snakes condition. We thought it was
odd she did not bring the animal back in it's original deli cup could it
have been the cup was warped from the heat?

A bit peeved she still hadn't owned up to what she did and still implied we
were at fault. In one of the emails I said, we both know what happened to
the animal from the time you purchased it to the time you brought it back.

This opened a flood gate and she began her ranting again and went as far as
to say that the snake we took a picture of was not the same snake.

~~~~~~

Since then the snake has accepted a small meal w/o hesitation, but it did regurgitate it today.
It is still sluggish and a bit thin from dehydration, I have talked to several others and fear that its
just a matter of time before it finally does die.

[The BoidSmith]

If she is not showing neurological signs typical of overheating (twitching, unable to right herself) she might be able to make it. I would recommend to continue to hydrate her and if you attempt to feed her just one small a pinky as she will take and not more than two in a week (for at least a couple of weeks).

Good luck!

[Serpwidgets]

Heh. I don't subscribe to "the customer is always right" either.

However, I don't believe that whether or not someone is rude is really relevant to whether or not they deserve a refund. (You are selling a snake in exchange for money, not in exchange for a polite attitude. ;) ) So for me that is not part of the equation.

The reason I would "consider" refunding (instead of outright refunding) is that given the circumstances it appeared that they killed the snake, and they probably should not be entrusted with any living thing until they grow some common sense. My concern would be centered on the person taking the refunded money and using it to purchase yet another victim, knowing that if they kill that one, they can again expect a refund from the next vendor for their disposable pet...

I think that as a vendor it's a losing situation no matter what you do. I hope this one does OK for you and maybe they've learned that living things actually have to be treated as such. :)

[homegrownherps]

Heh. I don't subscribe to "the customer is always right" either.

However, I don't believe that whether or not someone is rude is really relevant to whether or not they deserve a refund. (You are selling a snake in exchange for money, not in exchange for a polite attitude. ;) ) So for me that is not part of the equation.



Rude is most definitely part of the equation, first off... if someone is rude to me, especially a potential customer... I will tell them to take a hike. Just because they are giving me money for a product , does not give them the right to be rude and disrespectful. I don't care how much money I turn away because of it.

Secondly, if your rude with me expect only the same in return, because at that point I wouldn't care if I was right or wrong. People get from me exactly what they give.

If they had a better attitude from the beginning things would have most likely turn out allot differently.

[akaangela]

What is really sad is the poor snake. The poor thing was being cooked to death. Thank God she came back with it and you where able to save it, hopefully. No animal deserves to be treated like that. Even if the poor thing was dead to slam it down was uncalled for! The only thing I would offer her is the advice "dont let the door hit you in the hind end on the way out"

[reptilebreeder]

Rude is most definitely part of the equation, first off... if someone is rude to me, especially a potential customer... I will tell them to take a hike. Just because they are giving me money for a product , does not give them the right to be rude and disrespectful. I don't care how much money I turn away because of it.I think the way people act and treat others, is always a part of the equation.

[Serpwidgets]

Rude is most definitely part of the equation, first off... if someone is rude to me, especially a potential customer... I will tell them to take a hike. Just because they are giving me money for a product , does not give them the right to be rude and disrespectful. I don't care how much money I turn away because of it.

Secondly, if your rude with me expect only the same in return, because at that point I wouldn't care if I was right or wrong. People get from me exactly what they give.

If they had a better attitude from the beginning things would have most likely turn out allot differently.I think we're talking about two different things. If someone is rude before a transaction is completed, I can (and will) choose not to do business with them. What I mean is this:

A purchase involves the exchange of money for goods. If I sell someone a defective product, for example, and then they come back wanting a refund because it is defective, they deserve a refund, end of story. If they are rude to me, that does not negate the fact that they paid me for goods I did not deliver. In effect, this is saying "you owe me money for being rude to me."

I have seen a lot of this on the BOI, where someone takes money and then does not deliver the goods because the buyer was rude to them, as if that justifies keeping someone's money. IMO that is nothing more than theft. If you want to not do business with someone, that also includes not taking their money (or returning it if you've already received it.)

Does this also work the other way, that if I'm holding the snake while getting my money out and you are rude to me, I get to walk away with the snake without paying? ;)

Anyway, the above is a generic statement and not aimed at this exact situation. I am not saying that in this case you owed them a refund. I don't think you gave them a defective product, I think they "destroyed" it after it was purchased. I agree with your handling of the situation. :)

But, again, what I don't agree with is the seemingly popular sentiment (expressed by many, in many threads) that if someone is rude to the seller, the seller gets to keep their money without holding up their side of the contract.

[chondrogal]

I would not refund this customer. If I was in your shoes that bridge would have been burned the moment she slammed the snake back on the table no matter what the rest of the outcome is.

What I would do is make a file with all emails, and statement from you exactly what happened at the show and forward it to the show promoter. I think you were much more than reasonable by offering the same snake to her at the Daytona show in August.

I believe the law provides that you can charge "reasonable fees" for daily board and care too. Not that you asked for it, but it would be a way to prevent them from reaquiring this snake from you should it wind up making it back to good healthy status after 2 months. I'd hate to see them get a second chance to kill that snake!!

[homegrownherps]

I would not refund this customer. If I was in your shoes that bridge would have been burned the moment she slammed the snake back on the table no matter what the rest of the outcome is.

What I would do is make a file with all emails, and statement from you exactly what happened at the show and forward it to the show promoter. I think you were much more than reasonable by offering the same snake to her at the Daytona show in August.

I believe the law provides that you can charge "reasonable fees" for daily board and care too. Not that you asked for it, but it would be a way to prevent them from reaquiring this snake from you should it wind up making it back to good healthy status after 2 months. I'd hate to see them get a second chance to kill that snake!!

I have kept all the email concerning this matter , I don't think she is willing to let it go. I think this will again surface when we meet in Daytona. I fully expect her to show her attitude once again.

As for the snake , (if it recovers) I will either keep it or just give it to some one who can care for it. Yes for FREE.

I have taken photos of this snake eating and sent it to the customer, she doesn't believe its the same snake anyway.

I have also called the promoter to talk about this matter and they are not concerned with this at all, they know me and the quality of my animals.
And the people that know me personally , know very well I would not sell some one an animal that is sick.

[reptilebreeder]

A purchase involves the exchange of money for goods. If I sell someone a defective product, for example, and then they come back wanting a refund because it is defective, they deserve a refund, end of story. If they are rude to me, that does not negate the fact that they paid me for goods I did not deliver. In effect, this is saying "you owe me money for being rude to me.".The difference is they got their product and it was not defective. End of story. Sure you might say well it died so it should be refunded, but as mentioned earlier, the consensus, and symptoms appear to be that they cooked it. If I buy a computer part or electrical item, go home, hook it up backwords, because I'm a moron, and it fry's the item, it's my fault. That's why most places don't guarantee electrical products, unless it is defective workmanship, or something.

I have seen a lot of this on the BOI, where someone takes money and then does not deliver the goods because the buyer was rude to them, as if that justifies keeping someone's money. IMO that is nothing more than theft. If you want to not do business with someone, that also includes not taking their money (or returning it if you've already received it.)Really? Could you show me at least one, preferably a lot of these threads? Because I agree with you there, that would be outright theft. Keep in mind I'm not talking about threads where a seller said "well I was going to refund you, even though you vioded the warranty, but I changed my mind, as you are being an A :censored: " Because in that case I think it is justified, and is not the same thing as outright taking someone's money and then not delivering a product.

[KathyLove]

Yes, as far as attitude and refunds, I think we are talking about two different things. If a customer has paid and not yet received the goods, then they are entitled to their purchase, or a refund, no matter how disgusting they act.

But if there is a question of whether they deserve any refund at all, or maybe there is very little question and most think they DON'T deserve one, then attitude and good will certainly come into play. I (and many breeders, I am sure) will likely offer a replacement or 1/2 off on a replacement, depending on the situation, even when it is clear that the guarantee period is past, or when no reasonable person would expect a refund. It is just good business, in MOST cases. But if somebody acts in such a way that I never want them as a customer in the future, that certainly will impact my generosity in going "above and beyond" in offering a refund or replacement when it is not actually required.

[WebSlave]

This sort of thing does happen every once in a while to someone at every show that takes place in the summer months. People will buy a snake, thinking all reptiles need to be warm, so they will put it in their car, go get a bite to eat, then come back to a dead snake. Or else Junior plays with it to death in the back seat. They are not going to just throw away the price of the animal, so they hatch a plan to try to get it back. Some may admit what they did, but VERY few of them will.

A similar situation happened to us with a leopard gecko at a South Carolina show. A woman buys a leopard gecko for her son, and a couple of hours later brings back an animal obviously killed by trauma. As soon as she walked up to the table, she just lays into us (particularly Connie) saying we sold her a defective and unhealthy lizard. It just died and didn't look right as soon as they got out of the building. Blah, blah, blah... Connie was about to jump her about that time, so I had to step in. You don't talk about Connie's babies that way. After taking some screaming for a bit, I told her to take the lizard she killed and get away from my table. She then threatened to go to the promoter and file a complaint, and I just pointed him out to her and said to have at it. Yes, attitude DOES count. If she or her son had come back in with the dead lizard and admitted they screwed up somehow, maybe with even some tears in their eyes, well yes, we would have replaced it immediately. But once someone starts with the accusatory screaming and carrying on, then the money is not an issue. I would burn in hell before I would help them in any way.

I would suggest that everyone put a simple "ALL SALES ARE FINAL" on your invoices at shows. If anyone asks about it, simply tell them to look over the animals FULLY and COMPLETELY before walking away from the table with it. Because once you do, it is YOURS. If you kill it, it is STILL yours. I have had kids buy a snake then come back a hour later wanting a refund saying "My mom won't let me keep it." Yeah, right. Junior here saw something else he wanted instead and has just changed his mind. For all I know that animal was handled by him and 10 of his friends in the meantime, and now they want a new toy. So I just point to the disclaimer on the receipt and look apologetic.

Doing shows is just tough. You will have everyone from people who have never grasped the idea that all snakes are NOT "poisonous", to people who will ask you "Do all snakes have the same number of chromosomes?" And you have to field them all. The first time you do a show, you will get a crash course in salesmanship, both what TO do and what NOT to do, but always in retrospect. If you have not had someone bring back a dead animal to you yet, you probably will sooner or later. You might as well address how you will react beforehand rather then being caught flat footed without a reasonable policy in mind. Make the policy hard line, because you can always soften it on the fly if you feel the specific situation warrants it.

Jim, personally, I would have just dropped all ideas of contact with her once she slammed the container on the table and walked away. She is just bad news, and now you have to run into her again. She is probably STILL going to be bad news. Sometimes you just have to tell someone to take their business elsewhere because you don't want it under ANY circumstances.

[Serpwidgets]

The difference is they got their product and it was not defective. End of story.John, you're preaching to the choir here:
· Anyway, the above is a generic statement and not aimed at this exact situation.

· I am not saying that in this case you owed them a refund.

· I don't think you gave them a defective product,

· I think they "destroyed" it after it was purchased.

· I agree with your handling of the situation.




Really? Could you show me at least one, preferably a lot of these threads?
This thread is still active and these were posted within the last week: I would say that Don threatening me and telling me he is going to come to my house and kick my @#! before the conversations even began to heat up is enough for me to not give Don a replacement gecko.I would have kept my end of the bargain until you decided to threaten me.


Here's one from several months ago:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72663


I really don't have time to root through the BOI trying to find a pile of explicit quotes, but I think you get the idea. The attitude is expressed in many threads, especially the general sense of, "now that you have brought this to the BOI you won't get your money back/side of the trade/replacement shipped/etc."

I agree with what has been stated in this thread... I will go above and beyond normal expectations for a good customer, and I will choose to not make exceptions for rude or otherwise unpleasant customers. What I was talking about is not crossing the line into doing something that is outright wrong just because a customer is rude to you. Again, I am not saying that anyone in this thread has done so, but that such an attitude seems much more prevalent than it should be in the reptile hobby/industry as a whole. :eatpointe

[homegrownherps]

If I were to carry on (arrogant-rude-screaming stupidity) in a store such as Wal-mart or you local grocery store, I would either be escorted out the door by management or by the local police dept.

If I threaten some ones life, or made threats to beat someone’s @$$, chances are I would be escorted out in a pair of matching chrome bracelets.

If some one made threats to physically harm me or my better half when I am at a show or to come to my home, it would be certain that I would not have further contact with that person until he/she can conduct themselves professionally. I don’t care if I owed them money or a reptile.

People think because they give us money that we are below them and act like they’re doing us a favor.

Customers get bent out of shape when vendors are rude to them, what makes them think we don’t get pissed when they act the same way?

Fortunately there are only those few customers that are like that... I do allot of shows and for the most part customers are respectful and courteous. But there’s always that one moron that gets under your skin.

[Amspoet67]

Jim, personally, I would have just dropped all ideas of contact with her once she slammed the container on the table and walked away. She is just bad news, and now you have to run into her again. She is probably STILL going to be bad news. Sometimes you just have to tell someone to take their business elsewhere because you don't want it under ANY circumstances.

Rich,

I must admit Jim wanted to handle it differently, but I convinced him to do the "diplomatic thing" and to give her another chance since she was being so apologetic. You think I would learn by now, that his instincts about people are usually right. Lesson learned. :bow01:

Anna
(For those of you who don't know me from the shows, I'm the other half of Home Grown Herps :wavey: )

[WebSlave]

Rich,

I must admit Jim wanted to handle it differently, but I convinced him to do the "diplomatic thing" and to give her another chance since she was being so apologetic. You think I would learn by now, that his instincts about people are usually right. Lesson learned. :bow01:

Anna
(For those of you who don't know me from the shows, I'm the other half of Home Grown Herps :wavey: )

Anna, I have NO DOUBT whatsoever who is the cool, calm and collected one between you two. I just wish I had been at that show and had the ability to read Jim's mind when all that was going on. :rolleyes:

Amazing isn't it? You can have an excellent show all except for one incident like that to just put the whole weekend in the red emotionally.

[Amspoet67]

Amazing isn't it? You can have an excellent show all except for one incident like that to just put the whole weekend in the red emotionally.

Rich,

Yes, it is.
It helps a little bit when you know you're right.
It doesn't hurt either, knowing that
being stupid cost her the snake
being rude cost her $50.00
knowing she's out both and looked like a :ack2: -- priceless. :rofl:

Anna
www.homegrownherps.com

[reptilebreeder]

Rich,

being stupid cost her the snake
being rude cost her $50.00
knowing she's out both and looked like a :ack2: -- priceless. :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl:

[The BoidSmith]

It deals with gogs and cats but applies to reptiles as well:


HOT CARS CAN KILL...SOONER THAN YOU THINK
Tuesday, June 20, 2006
By: Gina Browning, Public Relations Director, 716-629-3505

Keep Pets Happy and Healthy This Summer By Leaving Them at Home

Most pet owners realize that keeping pets in hot cars can kill them…but not many realize just how quickly the effects of heatstroke can set in for a dog or cat.

Heatstroke is a condition animals begin to suffer gradually, but it accelerates quickly; it’s easy for early signs of heatstroke to go unrecognized, and for the pet to be in an emergency situation within mere minutes.

On warm days, a vehicle acts like an oven. It holds the heat inside, and that heat becomes very intense even on days that don’t seem too warm. On an 85-degree day, for example, even with the windows open, the temperature inside a car can climb to 102 degrees in 10 minutes, and to 120 degrees in 30 minutes. With the humidity we experience here in Buffalo, it may go even higher. Because a dog’s normal body temperature is 101-102.5 degrees Fahrenheit, he can withstand a body temperature of 107-108 degrees for only a very short time before suffering irreparable brain damage…or death.

The typical signs of heatstroke are:
-Panting
-High body temperature
-Dehydration
-Red mouth/eye membranes
-Rapid, irregular heart rate
-Diarrhea
-Weakness, looking dazed
-Coma

When you’re away from the house for any extended period of time this summer, ensure the pets are healthy and happy by leaving them home. Keep watching SPCAEC.com for seasonal reminders designed to help you make it a safe summer for your pets.

[The BoidSmith]

[QUOTE]It deals with gogs and cats but applies to reptiles as well:

Sorry for the typo; not sure what a "gog" is, but a dog also known as canis familiaris is a popular companion animal. ;)