If you wanted to start a profitable breeding project, what would be your choice?

[The BoidSmith]

This is a tough question. It has obviously many facets (starting capital, room, personal preferences, market demand, etc.). But let’s keep it simple. Would it be boas, pythons, tortoises/turtles, lizards or colubrids (sorry if I left anyone out!)? I usually follow the ads and they seem to be dominated by boas and ball pythons. Does anyone have access to verifiable information as far as the breakdown of reptile species ownership in the US?

Regards.

[sfaoldguy]

Although my favorite herps are colubrids, I would say either boas or pythons. A driving force in purchasing decisions is pride of ownership. If people want something to cuddle with, they usually buy a cat or dog. The initial reason for many people getting into reptiles is the nostalgia and pride of ownership. Not many reptiles are cooler than a huge python or boa. I bet many sellers hear the question, "How fast will he grow?"

[The BoidSmith]

Good answer John. My next question would probably be which morph/variant? Anything you see as a preference both in boas and pythons? Are you talking large pythons or ball pythons?

Regards

[scalesnstuff]

I would say bearded dragons for me. They have a good size clutch and can lay up to 7 clutches a year.

I have a link to a website for you that might help you out a little. It shows a breakdown of ownership for dog, cat,reptile, etc.

http://www.packagedfacts.com/product/display.asp?ProductID=112816&view=toc

[The BoidSmith]

Thanks Bertram! That's exactly what I was looking for. :)

Regards.

[kmurphy]

I think whatever it is you need to like them. For example, I am not a morph person, when it comes to boas and pythons. I can't see paying the extra money for them and, often can't even see what they are talking about. I don't think I would do well with morphs yet in some species that's where the big bucks are.

So IMO you have to like the species, or morph, you're working with. So you can be excited when you are successful reproducing them and not just looking at dollar signs -although that doesn't hurt. :>poke2<:

[The BoidSmith]

Liking the species is a given. You can't do it if you don't. I'm not sure if I can honestly say if I like more one than another. It doesn't matter if they are albino, axanthic or normals. The point is that they all eat the same and they all occupy the same space regardless of their genetics. If my business/hobby is going to be sustainable in time it has to take into consideration what I'm breeding. Plain old boa constrictors are beautiful in their own right but they have the same cost of maintenance than an striped albino boa. This is just a personal issue (and that of my family!) as the money I devote to my animals should not be subsidized by the house budget but should come from the reptiles themselves. Other people might be more lucky than I am. :)

Regards

[Lucille]

Time is a factor: buying a young boa and proving it out can take quite a bit of time; but if these are long term plans, then go for it. Too, if one has extra time, one can reduce operating costs by growing rodents, etc.
The legal climate always has a bearing, if your particular jurisdiction is considering legislation, it would be good to check out how likely the legislation is to pass and how it will affect you: making a huge investment in time and money could lead to considerable disappointment if there are plans afoot to restrict the species you are working with..

[hunterjackson]

It would be chelonians (tortoises/turtles) for me. The problem is you would need to invest in an older pair, due to the fact that they usually take 15 yrs to mature.

You get a high return on your investment.

The only problem is: the problem tortoises and turtles. Ie: red ear sliders and sulcatas.

People dont realize how large they get, and usually dont take care of them correctly...they think, heck, its only $3 (RES) or $60 (baby sulcata). But those who buy radiata, aldabra etc have a higher investment and a $50 vet bill is nothing....

Hunter Jackson

[The BoidSmith]

I agree, they are very nice (in fact I have some). But turtles are a pretty "slow" return on your investment ;)

Regards

[hunterjackson]

I was stating to buy large, already fertile, chelonians. I agree, but they are my love.

The market has been steady, compared to morph bps etc, on more desireable tortoises and turtles. Ie: aldabra baby, centered around $3000 etc.

Hunter Jackson

[christopher66]

I have steered towards the higher end morphs .If the husbandry is done properly and lady luck pays a visit ,I'm going to be ok.
Making money is AFTER enjoying what I'm doing.Ive made money and lost money in breeding and selling.The bottom line is you have to like the animals you breed and enjoy working with them.
I'm happy if i can cover my purchase costs of my animals and have some left over to invest in better breeding stock.
What i have invested in are;High end Chondros that have the possibility of carrying the albino gene.
Hypo Tiger-Jaguar ,on hopes of producing Tiger-Jaguars .
And a pretty nice Woma.
All in all about 10g for animals and another 2g for proper caging.
In the long run I should be able to recoup my expenditures with my first clutch hatchlings.IF! and only IF Its done properly and i have a little luck.

Christopher Frank

[christopher66]

The Hypo Jaguar is a carpet python not a retic.
Chris Frank

[The BoidSmith]

[QUOTE]Making money is AFTER enjoying what I'm doing.Ive made money and lost money in breeding and selling.The bottom line is you have to like the animals you breed and enjoy working with them.
I'm happy if i can cover my purchase costs of my animals and have some left over to invest in better breeding stock.[/QUOTE

Well said!

Regards.

[John Cherry]

Over the years I have seen many fads and hyped markets come and go. Additionally I have seen a large number of breeders come and go also. The sucessful/profitable ones that I have observed over the years seem to be the ones that have diversity in the animals they breed and produce quality over a long period of time.

It really has not depended on the type of the animal ie: tortise, turtle, lizard or snake. But rather is a function of desire, commitment and quality.

I personally know tortise breeders that make 6 fiqure profits every year, the same can be said of colubrids, boas, pythons and several of the varieties of lizards.

Markets change and so do a lot of other variables that are beyond a breeders control. So the guy that is vested in a wide variety of species and/or types of breeders stands over the long run have a profitable breeding program with minor adjustments in emphasis and numbers of animals pruduced in any one area.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms :>poke2<:

[The BoidSmith]

Couldn't agree more John. Excellent reply. Now, 6 figure profits with tortoises!? I wouldn't even have dreamed about it. :)

Regards.

[John Cherry]

I was amazed also when I saw the numbers he was producing of pancakes, greeks, two types of leopards and a couple of other smaller ones like egyptians. He also has a pretty good collection of rosy boas and Mt. Kings he works with. The most impressive part is I know he has been doing it for over 15 years now as a full time deal.

Take Care,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms :slamit:

[The BoidSmith]

So he is quite diversified too. That might be the key to it. Specialization is nice but...

[FunkyRes]

I would try to get ahold of some of the milksnake subspecies that are extremely hard to find. I believe Ecuadorian milksnakes, for example, only have a couple breeders - with the young fetching around $750 apiece.

The other thing I would (and will) try - producing tripple and quadruple HETs.
People who want the excitement of breeding may be more attracted to pairs that are HET for a lot of different things, because they can buy just a few snakes and produce snakes with all kinds of pattern morphs and combinations of morphs.

For example, a pair of Cal King that are 100% for albino, lavender, melanism, and ghost would be very attractive to a lot of people, just to see what the hatchlings come out as.

[ChadOsborne]

#1 albino burms. small investiment 2 year turn around. there's never enough.

#2 Star Torts $300 each stay under 12 inches. 4-5 years there breeding. there's never enough.

#3 pancake torts although inital investiment might be high who knows you might get luck buying adults.

[sschind]

#1 albino burms. small investiment 2 year turn around. there's never enough.



Profitable perhaps, but judging from the numbers of people looking to get rid of large burms I wonder if it is ethical? Just my opinion, you have the right to breed and sell any animal you want as long as it is legal to do so. One of my favorite sayings however is "just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean its the right thing to do"

[ChadOsborne]

"just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean its the right thing to do"

I've never worked with them myself. I agree 100% with you.

[The BoidSmith]

Yes, I would probably choose the stars' or the woods' myself.

Regards.

[hhmoore]

#1 albino burms. small investiment 2 year turn around. there's never enough.
Not exactly true. Many people are getting away from burms because a) they aren't particularly profitable (unless you are somebody like Bob Clark or Mike Wilbanks). b) babies can be difficult to get rid of, unless you wholesale them (and there goes the profit you might have had) c) many areas are creating legislation that bans or regulates possession of large constrictors...and burms are almost always on the list. Also, since the effects/dangers of powerfeeding were learned, the days of a 2 year return on a burm investment are long gone. Even if you breed them young (2.5 years), they are 3 years old before you get babies...but 4 years is more common.

I tried to "focus" my efforts, when I got back into reptiles...I think that lasted about 3-4 weeks, lol. Historically, I have always had a pretty diverse collection - no reason to stop now. I have tried to keep a portion of my breeding efforts in what I consider the pet/hobbiest zone: $100-400. You can sell snakes in that range all day long. Bump the price to $500, and you are suddenly looking at a different, much smaller consumer base. Break $1000, and you have a smaller market again.

[FunkyRes]

Profitable perhaps, but judging from the numbers of people looking to get rid of large burms I wonder if it is ethical? Just my opinion, you have the right to breed and sell any animal you want as long as it is legal to do so. One of my favorite sayings however is "just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean its the right thing to do"

When I was about 12 or so, mom and dad bought me a pair of captive bred burmese pythons. When it was time for me to go to college, they were huge and I could not take them with me. Mom and Dad wanted to become foster parents, and the state would not license them with large snakes in the house.

Even with free caging, they were incredibly difficult to find homes for.

There are more captive bred burmese pythons every year than there are people who have the ability to raise and keep them when they are big. Large snakes really belong in the realm of the specialist, and do not make good pets for the general public, albino or not.

[The BoidSmith]

Harald and Michael made excellent points. We should bear also some responsibility as to know what can eventually happen to those burmese. If you sell a corn snake, a ball python or even in most instances a boa, chances are they could become a lifelong pet for the person who bought them. On the other hand that little burmese might end up in a in an animal shelter or worse yet in a swampy area of a southern state, once it outgrows the owner's capacity to house it, feed it, and/or handle it safely.

Regards

[scalesnstuff]

all of that falls on the stores or seller not making the buyer aware of the costs, size or temperment of the snake. Alot of people that are new to snakes see the little foot long snake and think that it will not be big, or they know the size that it might get but it is bigger than what they planned for. Burms are not the only reptiles that his happens too. Large tortoises, red tails, blood pythons, iguanas, etc.

Now for breeding burms, normals are probably going to be a waste, they sell way to cheap, but the morphs are a different story. Green Albinos, Granites and Labyrinths still fetch a decent price. Legislature has hindered the reptile industry of the years and makes it harder to do buisiness. There was a post a couple of days ago that talked about Jesus (150 lb burm) getting shot by the police. That is the price to pay when owners are not educated enough about how to care and maintain the snake. (nothing against them, I'll put it off to the person that sold them the animal).

As far as profitable, it all depends. Basically it would be something that is currently popular, matures quick, stays some what small, and produces a large number of offspring. Just because the animal sells fast now does not mean it will stay that way. So to keep it profitable you would need to stay current on the newest trends.

[John Cherry]

When we go to expo's and shows it always bothers me to see young kids walking around with an 18" bumese or retic in a deli cup that mom or dad has just bought them. People just do not realize the size and strength of these big constrctors. Many times the exotic word "python" has been the reason for the purchase, with no thought of the eventual size the animals will attain.
This in one of the reason I have been glad to see the ball python market expand as they are neat animals that are still pythons, but attain much more manageable size for most folks.

I stopped breeding the giants many years ago because of the inherent problems with selling them to the general public. We still have 3 burmese and one retic that are ancient, but they are just relics of our past LOL.

There is a market for them both wholesale and retail, but in good conscience I can't produce them knowing the problems most folks will have in a few years when the animals get big. There are too many alternatives that are much more manageable for the general public and inexperienced keeper.

Dollars are nice, but the long term ramifications of any sale must be considered also. Venomous fall into the same category for us. For many years we bred and kept both the giants and the venomous animals of the world, but no longer do so as a matter of PERSONAL principle. Additionally though I will defend the right of others to do so, with the qualification that they need to be experienced keepers and/or mentored by someone with the knowledge of techniques and husbandry requirements for these animals.

Just our two cents worth anyway.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms :toiletcla

[The BoidSmith]

Basically it would be something that is currently popular, matures quick, stays some what small, and produces a large number of offspring.

The oroblem with those that produce large number of offspring is that they depreciate way too fast. Just compare albino boas to albino ball pythons for example, the latter hit the market quite earlier and they still double the price of the albino boas.

Regards.

[FunkyRes]

all of that falls on the stores or seller not making the buyer aware of the costs, size or temperment of the snake. Alot of people that are new to snakes see the little foot long snake and think that it will not be big, or they know the size that it might get but it is bigger than what they planned for. Burms are not the only reptiles that his happens too. Large tortoises, red tails, blood pythons, iguanas, etc.

Now for breeding burms, normals are probably going to be a waste, they sell way to cheap, but the morphs are a different story. Green Albinos, Granites and Labyrinths still fetch a decent price. Legislature has hindered the reptile industry of the years and makes it harder to do buisiness. There was a post a couple of days ago that talked about Jesus (150 lb burm) getting shot by the police. That is the price to pay when owners are not educated enough about how to care and maintain the snake. (nothing against them, I'll put it off to the person that sold them the animal).

As far as profitable, it all depends. Basically it would be something that is currently popular, matures quick, stays some what small, and produces a large number of offspring. Just because the animal sells fast now does not mean it will stay that way. So to keep it profitable you would need to stay current on the newest trends.

You put it off to the person who sells the animal, but these problems are well known to the people who breed the animal and provide them to the sellers who then sell the animal.

I know I'll get boos and hisses, but I think very large snakes should require a permit to purchase - even when they are small. Part of the permit fee needs to go to funding rescue organizations that deal with the snakes when they are no longer that cute little snake.

People need to understand what they are getting into, and a permit that costs real money and requires demonstration of ability to properly house the snake when young AND grown will drastically reduce the number of people putting these baby burmese pythons into 20 gallon aquariums, and then wondering what to do 3 years later.

[FunkyRes]

It reminds me almost of the wisdom in the movie natural born killers. Something like this:

A woman finds a snake in the snow and nurses it back to health. When it is healthy, she kisses it - and it bites her. As she is dying, she asks the snake "I healed you, why would you do such a thing?" - The snake responded "When you healed me, you knew what I was"

[scalesnstuff]

I do not breed burms, all of mine are babies (will eventually breed). But I do have on display a 9 foot burm, full grown iguanas, blood pythons, red tail.... Pretty much anything we sell that can grow up to be a hassle, plus we do about 50 days a year in our local school system and I have done a class at our local GSP office to educate people about reptiles. I have not been open long but the big thing that we get is I can't handle it, it's too big.
Problem is no one else is willing to take the time to do it.