What is your opinion?????

[KCRD.com]

This past weekend a venodor at the Daytona show decided to "stir the pot" by selling his Spider Ball Pythons for somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 a pair. Although I wasn't at the show I heard about it very quickly from others that were. Maybe I'm a little different than others but quite frankly this really pissed me off when I heard about it. I am really struggling with the fact that some vendors decide that they want to "dump" their stock and crap all over the market by basically giving away their stock at shows. For the life of me I can't figure out as to why someone would purposly crash the market even if for only a moment at a show like this. So I come to the rest of my colleagues and ask, What do you all think of this? Before anyone goes off on a rant and says that this is a free country and people can sell their snakes for what they want to, or the prices are going to come down sooner than later anyway, I want you to realize that I am fully aware of this but there is no reason to under cut people this way.

[nickthegreek]

I personally think that is very messed up to do something like that, especially at Daytona.

[ervinmw]

It really is a point of view thing. From a breeder/ businessman outlook, yes, it is bad. And truly undercutting people that much can be bad and have ripple effects.

From a person wanting a bp or wanting to get into them... I'd love to have a spider. just one. I'm not going to breed them. I don't want to breed bp's but I would absolutely love to have a spider. So as a consumer, not looking to breed or make a profit, that isn't a bad thing. Puts the "cool" thing into an affordable range.

I happen to believe that too much emphasis is placed on breeding reptiles. Because of that the "value" of morphs has been driven up and up before it falls because everyone breeds them. So I am content to wait for it to become affordable because I'm not breeding or looking for a return. In my opinion reptiles have become "investments" to people instead of pets.

[KCRD.com]

I totally agree that they are investments. I have sunken a lot of money into these, much like one would in the stock market. This is why I get so upset. This is a thriving market, a market that can afford some price drop, but not like this. This is just rediculous.

[Cat_72]

Jason, I don't know who the person was (though I'd sure like to!), but I think this has all been so hashed and rehashed already in the MKR threads, that there's really not much left to add to it. IMO, it's just a plain crappy thing to do....but then, I'm one of those folks that tends to believe the best in people, perhaps to a fault.....and just can never see the joy in being a cold, hard businessperson. Some people think they can only find joy in the money, I guess....I could never be that way.

I happen to believe that too much emphasis is placed on breeding reptiles. Because of that the "value" of morphs has been driven up and up before it falls because everyone breeds them. So I am content to wait for it to become affordable because I'm not breeding or looking for a return. In my opinion reptiles have become "investments" to people instead of pets.

Yes, some of my reptiles I would call "investments", but they are first and foremost pets. Is it not possible for them to be both? If we stopped breeding reptiles, and stopped searching for that next "cool thing"....where would we be?

[ervinmw]

Hey, From an investment/business side I don't blame you. Sucks.

I'd love for the reptile hobby to be great investments for all.

[NorthernRegius.com]

My Pythons all have names, they are my pets first, and I raise them because I love doing so. Having said that, they are- as any living thing who requires our care, an investment. Each day we invest time providing for our herps, and I believe it’s okay to have expectations on getting a return off that investment. But for me money isn’t the top return I expect to get. Each day I’m rewarded with seeing my investment pay off- in the form of healthy, well-adjusted animals. I believe it’s the love of what we do that is still at the heart of what we are doing here- & we shouldn’t worry about the few who don’t get that.

Don’t get me wrong, I do expect at some point to make money- with time and a sound plan. This is not a “fast” business. I understand that people are concerned about prices, but (IMHO) no one person or business is going to kill the market. Can those discounters, cut that deep & still afford to properly care for their animals? Or will they likely discount themselves out of business? Don’t buy into the belief that you need to compete- price wise. Compete by producing the best & people will come to you.

Not all people who are in the herp industry will last, but that doesn’t mean the market is “ruined”… it’s about these animals & our ability to share something we love with other folks. To do this we will need to not panic over the actions of a few, and we should focus on quality of our creatures. Red-line marketing is not going to work in the long haul (IMHO). I still intend to be here when all the dust settles. I hope that people will not feel the need to match the unsustainable tactics of the few.

Sincere Best Wishes- Deb

[DISCERN]

I understand why what happened in Daytona would make some upset but at the same time, it is what myself and many others have always thought would happen with the business side of things in the ball python market.

Investing in reptiles from just an investment purpose, to me, misses the whole point of having them. It is a priveledge and should always be fun. I understand though that expecting a return from animals that you paid a lot of money for is something to look forward to, but as we know, it does not always work out like that. If you end up having to sell your animals for less than what you paid for, and are actually ABLE to sell them, then that is still money in the bank. There are a lot worse things that could happen in life than that.

I don't think that what happened during Daytona will kill the market on these ball pythons. The fact that it seems that there is a HUGE amount of breeders breeding ball pythons, and breeders and customers end up being each others competition within a matter of years, that alone may end up hurting the business. The more there is of a certain kind of ball python out there, the more the prices will drop. It will work out great though for the average joe off the street to be able to be able to buy what was once a ridicuously expensive morph.

I believe Deb from northernregius had a great post!!!!!!! :)

Billy Fraser

[The BoidSmith]

It's an issue that should be handled with tact. Some might drop the price because they are over-stocked. In fact everyone knows that prices drop for morphs or any other animal on Sunday, as closing time approaches. It happens in every show, not just reptiles. What's different though is the intention behind it. If the sellers does it because he thinks it's a hassle and additional stress for the animals to ship them back "home" it's probably OK. Now if the intent is to undercut the competition that's bad business. Similarly it's also bad business when breeders overprice their stock even when they are the first to know that that morph is going downhill. Most people that are in this as a business knows first hand when a morph is showing signs to "crash". Overpricing them when the seller knows that in a couple of months they will go "free falling" is unfair to the buyer. Something similar to what happens in the stock market; and we know that the penalties can be quite steep. If not as Martha...

Regards,

[John Cherry]

Having been in the hobby for many years, I have seen this happen from time to time. The crash with the albino nelsons is something a lot of folks will remember. But that was an anommally in the hobby/business. Many times somebody will dump his animals for a fraction of the current market value of them, one of two things then happens. The rest of the breeders panic and drop the prices on the animals they have for sale or they have faith in the animals they produce and hold the pricing to what they are worth.

Personally I believe the ball market is viable and something folks should be able to thrive in as long as everyone realizes that each year there are more and more of the different morphs produced and thus the price will naturally move downwards some. Additionally I believe the visual morphs have a long way to go before they have a dramatic drop in pricing.

The thing I see that hurts the market even more is when someone takes advantage of new breeders coming into the hobby by selling them unproven or slightly different patterns or morphs for silly money that is just a rip off to the customer. A lot of that is going on and should be identified and dealt with in my opinion.

Bottom line morphs such as the spider are beautiful and the market will take care of itself as long as folks produce quality animals that are a joy to keep and look at.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms :) :shrug01:

[KJUN]

I think it is wrong, BUT I also think the owner of the animals has the right to do whatever the heck he wants with his animals. If another breeder does not like it, he has the option of buyingthem for resale. If they are really worth - and will sale fo - more, then he can make a profit. If not, then they are just whining for nothing.

It comes down to this: is your possibility to possibly make a profit worth more than his right to sell his property for whatever value he wants? I sure as heck hope nobody in America truly believes in a "right" to make a profit. Yuck.

Personally, I wholesale all my high dollar morphs to AVOID crashing the market. I sell them fast, the wholesaler marks them up, and the market doesn't crash. SO, I don't believe it is right. The answer is simple: I just don't buy from those people. If people REALLY believed what they are doing is wrong, they wouldn't have any customers. The fact that he DOES sell them proves people don't really mind what he does, doesn't it. ;)

[Charlie Smith]

business = risk, I am with Deb too. a seller can do whatever he wants that is his right (he can overcharge and undercharge) and if 1 seller can make a difference then that just shows how weak things were in the first place but I can't remember when an avalanche was a good thing. Competition and saturation drives down prices.

Hang on as long as you can and adjust your business plan accordingly.

Just my opinion! Charlie S.

[Sweeney's Serpents]

Would 2 snake really crash the spider ball market? How about the 2 idiots that dumped hondos last year like albino corns all over the place. If there are to many of any type of critter...the rule of supply and demand will take over. You could always buy them if they were such a deal and resell at your perceived market value.........

[John E Dove]

My take on this whole thing is that trying to “invest” in specific morph snakes after the first few generations have been produced and sold is not the best of ideas. If you love the animals get them and work with them but don’t try doing it for the bucks unless you are the first or second to produce the morph.

As an example: I think it was Bob Clark and/or Steve Gooch who produced the first Albino Burms in the US back in the 80s. His original one came from something he took a chance on and got from Germany. (Again I am not 100% on this since it has been a long time since I heard this story which I believe is true.) His first hets were not sold but used to produce pure Albinos. These snakes were worth a fortune as the first of the line.
Once they sold and grew up others started producing them and given the ease of breeding and reproducing the market held high for a few years but now they are almost as common as snow corn snakes and sometimes can be picked up for as little as $150. IMO given their ease of breeding we can expect this to drop even lower and I think the market is being artificially kept high by some. Sorry but a morph as common and easy to produce as this cannot stay high on its own unless producers quit producing them.
IMO Albino Burms were an investment for about the first 10 years or so but after every beginning breeder who could afford them started producing them they were no longer an investment worthy of being called High Dollar.

Having said that: IMO, if you are purchasing a “high dollar” morph as an investment that has been marketed for 5 or so years I think it is a mistake. The market can go no where but down and your $5,000 snake is being purchased at an inflated price cause by those wanting to artificially keep the market high. Of course that is for snakes which are easy to produce from parent morph stock.
Remember the guys that got into that morph 3 years ago will have produced and sold 3 clutches or more by the time this years babies are old enough to breed so your $5,000 (when purchased) snakes may have actually lost value by the time they become breeders.
In fact by the time you start producing them your breeders may not be worth the $5,000 you paid for them originally unless the market is held artificially high by breeder/dealer price fixing which is illegal.
Not that I begrudge anyone the right to ask what they want for their animals but it may well be that they will have to hold them a long time before they will sell as the market dips ever lower due to a good supply and low demand.

Also it is clear that near the end of the summer – mid fall many people would like to dump their non-breeding age stock so they do not have to carry it over (feed it and care for it) through to the next year. Check the markets and there are some great low ball deals out there from people doing this right now. Most small breeders and some of the well known ones do not have the space or the money to carry over a large stock so they have to unload them as best they can while the weather is still warm enough to ship.
LOL, it is driving me nuts because my weather is now to cold to ship safely even with heat packs so I can’t buy some of these great deals.

Myself, I buy and breed reptiles that interest my personal taste and sell to a limited local market right now. I don’t try for “high dollar” because I do not have the contacts to get in on the ground floor of the market and most not sell locally anyway since the money is just not there.
Hopefully I will one day get big enough to consider internet sales and shipping then I may try for some of the higher dollar type animals but for now I am happy with my low dollar pretty easy to work with animals. Picking up a few bucks on the side of course always nice but I doubt it will ever be a money maker able to support me on its own unless I luck into the first Albino something that no one has produced like Mr. Clark and Gooch did.