Desert Dragons- Bad

[Denisebme]

I'm very hesitant to do this, but after seeing the amount of dragons listed from this breeder, I had to say something.
In March this year I purchased a dragon from Desert Dragons, and since they are located fairly close to me, opted to pick the baby up. The husbandry practices I saw were absolutely awful. She had several, not one or two, dragons housed together in various enclosures, and even had some adult dragons housed with an Iguana. Males were housed with females, very small females. It was the saddest thing.
Bottom line, I would have purchased every dragon she had for sale if I could have that day, not to keep them, but to get them out of there. The one I did come home with I immediately took to the vet, and after she was healthy, I gave her to a good friend that could and would provide an excellent home for her.

[The Reptile House]

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen? I have recommended a lot of people to her when I stopped breeding(some of my stock I got from Gloria) and all of those customers have been really happy with what they received.
Out of curiosity what exactly was wrong with the one you bought? What exactly did the vet state and was this told to Gloria? Was there something visibly wrong with it at the time of purchase?
If you bought it and took it to the vet and there was something defiantly wrong with the dragon I know for a fact that Gloria would have made it right by you, so I am very curious as to exactly what was wrong with the dragon and how it was told to her.
He dragons last time I was there are housed in large vision cages and they are not over crowded. I do know that like I said she is a bit overloaded right now hence all the different adds and lower prices.
I am splitting a both with her at the IRBA in December. Please come by and see her dragons. I know you will not be disappointed!
Sincerely, Shanell.

[The Reptile House]

And also you waited 7 months to post this. Why so long?
Shanell.

[critical bill]

And also you waited 7 months to post this. Why so long?
Shanell.

Opening line in Denise's post....

"I'm very hesitant to do this, but after seeing the amount of dragons listed from this breeder, I had to say something."

RIF. Reading is Fundamental.

[critical bill]

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen?

I think thats what Denise was saying. She doesn't question the animals health but rather the housing of the animals. Which can lead to health problems of course, like adult males breeding with juvenile females, but thats not exactly what Denise was pointing out.

Your friend wouldn't have a lot to breed if she didn't pair them up. She wouldn't be out of space to adequately house the animals if she prepared for housing prior to breeding.

Money money money.

What booth was that again that I'll walking straight past?

[The Reptile House]

So because she puts up multipal dragons for sale she NOW decides to state her concerns 7 months later? I also looked at Gloria's feedback and someone else also purchased a dragon in the same month as her and they were 100% satisfied!
If you go somewhere and see something that bothers you or you feel you got ripped off or you got a "sick" dragon from someone you certanly do not waite 7 months to post a complaint or warning.
It's my guess and only my guess at this point without getting the ?'s I asked answered or Desert Dragons responding I would say that she may never have let gloria know about any vet check. AGAIN just a guess at this point. Shanell.

[The Reptile House]

She actually does question the health due to she stated that she took hers straight to the vet and after it was "healthy" she gave it to a friend.
All her dragons are housed just fine for the large space of the visions she has them kept in. All her heat/lighting is top notch(I know because I was the one who ordered it for her) all her dragons are 100% healthy( I speek from direct knowledge).
Dought you would fly all the way out here for a smaller venue show and go ahead walk by.
For all those who do stop by they will see 100% healthy dragons and will be completly happy with their purchase!
Judge how you wish and so will I.
Shanell.

[The Reptile House]

I just spoke with Gloria she knows this is here and should respond soon. Shanell.

[critical bill]

She actually does question the health due to she stated that she took hers straight to the vet and after it was "healthy" she gave it to a friend.

*Big Sigh*

When multiple animals are housed/crowded together, that otherwise should be kept housed individually or in pairs, you're damn straight that animal should go to the vet upon purchase. Is veterinary care a new concept for you and your pal?

Unless of course you're of the notion that protecting your collection takes a back seat to breeding in such large numbers to make money money money.

In my opinion, and with few exceptions, all animals should be vet checked upon their arrival and quarantined thereafter for a period of time before entering a main collection.

Denise followed some very basic protocols of good husbandry. But please do go right on criticising Denise for doing what any good hobbyist would do in the same position.

[The Reptile House]

To quaranteen and get them checked sure I agree 100%. To never notify the breeder of any problems from a vet check and not speek up for 7 months?
If she was that disgusted in her so called practices she should never have made a purchase and spoke up imediatly period! Shanell.

[critical bill]

So because she puts up multipal dragons for sale she NOW decides to state her concerns 7 months later?

Is there a time limit around here I wasnt made aware of? Do you know Denise so well that you know she wasnt overseas or in the hospital...unable to post?

I also looked at Gloria's feedback and someone else also purchased a dragon in the same month as her and they were 100% satisfied!

Yeah so? Maybe that happy person is a woman as well and both her and Denise ovulate at the same time each month. What does one 100% happy customer, who was probably shipped the dragon and did not see the establishment, have to do with a concerned customer who picked the dragon up in person and was unhappy with what they witnessed?

If you go somewhere and see something that bothers you or you feel you got ripped off or you got a "sick" dragon from someone you certanly do not waite 7 months to post a complaint or warning.

Sort of correct on that, but again, perhaps she was unable to post about it or perhaps she thought this was an isolated incident and oversight by the breeder that would quickly be remedied. Maybe she thought, given the poor husbandry practice of your pal...that she was on her way out the business.

No where does Denise state that the animal was sick. But apparently you arrived at that notion because she states the animal was healthy after its vet visit.

Look at it this way....you feel pretty healthy dont you? If you went to the doctor for an annual exam and he found something that you wouldnt otherwise have felt or even noticed, but something that could compromise your health down the road, was it wrong to go to the doctor?

It's my guess and only my guess at this point without getting the ?'s I asked answered or Desert Dragons responding I would say that she may never have let gloria know about any vet check. AGAIN just a guess at this point. Shanell.

Why should she have provided Gloria with any information? Shouldn't Gloria being sending in fecal samples to her vet so she knows whats going on in her own collection?

[The Reptile House]

This came directly from her-
"The one I did come home with I immediately took to the vet, and after she was healthy, I gave her to a good friend that could and would provide an excellent home for her."

"And after she was healthy" implies that there was something wrong in the vet's eyes to not have given her a 100% clean bill of health at that present time, but no she states "after she was healthy" so what was wrong with her that it took time to get healthy?

Time frame? So all your animals to you are 100% healthy, clear stools, bright eyes, healthy weight, eating/drinking just fine etc. Darn right I would want to know if someone took a purchased animal of mine to the vet to get an observation check done and something came back negative. Yes I would expect to here from that customer immediately not months down the road or never.
It sounds as though she was not that concerned with her "visit" to Desert Dragons or a thread would have been started back then to maybe warn others. No negative feedback was ever left. No thread ever started about her concerns. Till now because she posted some beautifully looking dragons for sale?
Shanell.

[Desert Dragons]

Denise said nothing to me when purchasing her dragon. Had she of called or talked to me I was in the process of getting more cages. Most of the dragons were coming out of brumation and I had an overstock of males from the previous year. I have since thinned them out and have new cages too. These are vision cages and can house more than one or two dragons.
She left my house with her dragon and wanted another one when it was old enough to go. I later contacted her when it was ready to go and she said NOTHING to me at the time except that she did not need any more males.
I did not have juvenile females in with adult males. My males and females are separated when of breeding age. Some of my females aren't huge but that is just the size of this line.

[Denisebme]

Ok Shanell, what good would it have done for me to speak up. The woman had adult beardies in a cage with an Iguana, a large iguana. She had males in with very small females.
I could have become confrontational with her on her property. Sure. What good would that have done? I did mention it to other breeders, and there is at least one here that can easily tell you that I specifically told her to stay away from Desert Dragons and explained why.
I pick my battles. I've seen what happens when people get into he said/she said on this forum, and I'm not going to do that. I specifically said what I saw with my own eyes. I did not complain about paying money to rescue that baby, that was my choice, I could have walked away.
Other than the fact that this breeder has horrible husbandry practices, I have no beef with her, nor will I engage in any sort of personal battle with you or anyone else.

[Denisebme]

Oh, and yes, the dragon did have vet issues. She had a deformed foot and was very undersized for her age. She is still very small.

[Denisebme]

That is extremely hard to believe! I am friends with Gloria at Desert Dragons All her dragons are top notch! She will lower her prices immensely if any nips or bites acure but all her cages are very clean and her dragons 100% healthy. She sends pics all the time to me some for sale some holdbacks and they are all great looking, not thin or sick looking at all. I do know that she is a bit overloaded right now, she had a lot breed this year and is in the process of thinning back her dragons greatly which may explain the bit crowded cages you may have seen? I have recommended a lot of people to her when I stopped breeding(some of my stock I got from Gloria) and all of those customers have been really happy with what they received.
Out of curiosity what exactly was wrong with the one you bought? What exactly did the vet state and was this told to Gloria? Was there something visibly wrong with it at the time of purchase?
If you bought it and took it to the vet and there was something defiantly wrong with the dragon I know for a fact that Gloria would have made it right by you, so I am very curious as to exactly what was wrong with the dragon and how it was told to her.
He dragons last time I was there are housed in large vision cages and they are not over crowded. I do know that like I said she is a bit overloaded right now hence all the different adds and lower prices.
I am splitting a both with her at the IRBA in December. Please come by and see her dragons. I know you will not be disappointed!
Sincerely, Shanell.

I saw her set-up way back in March, and I can not be clear enough that she had multiple females, including females much to small for breeding, housed with males. She also had adult dragons housed with a much, much larger green iguana.
Why did I wait 7 months? That's an easy one. I'm very busy, and it had been months since I had the time or energy to log into Fauna. Even after I saw her ads I struggled with the decision to post to the BOI, because doing this, at least to me, is pretty serious and its not something I take lightly.

[Denisebme]

Denise said nothing to me when purchasing her dragon. Had she of called or talked to me I was in the process of getting more cages. Most of the dragons were coming out of brumation and I had an overstock of males from the previous year. I have since thinned them out and have new cages too. These are vision cages and can house more than one or two dragons.
She left my house with her dragon and wanted another one when it was old enough to go. I later contacted her when it was ready to go and she said NOTHING to me at the time except that she did not need any more males.
I did not have juvenile females in with adult males. My males and females are separated when of breeding age. Some of my females aren't huge but that is just the size of this line.

No Gloria, I did not want another one, but you're right, I would have taken them all if I could have, and right then. My husband would have killed me though, he was already ticked off that I insisted on buying the one little girl.
Bottom line, you know absolutely that you were housing many dragons together, some very young females with adult males. I'm not sure what you think is breeding age, but some of those females were way to small to be breeding. You also know that you were caging Beardies with a pretty much full sized green Iguana. That is not just bad, its ridiculously bad.
Bottom line, one person is giving me grief because I didn't raise a stink in your home. That said, I saw what I saw, you know what I saw, and nothing you have said here contradicts what I've already said.
You're also well aware that the dragon you sold to me had a deformed foot, something I was unaware of until I showed up to pick her up, and she was incredibly small for 7 months. She was the size of my 3 month old babies.

[Denisebme]

Thank you Bill. I was hesitant to post to the BOI because of just this situation, it always seems to get personal and it was not my intention to post a personal attack. I have not had much time, and I hadn't logged on for months. When I saw the ads, I had to say something because people are going to be buying these animals and they need to make an informed choice.
This baby was not "sick", she was undersized and had an issue with one of her feet that needed to be cared for. I kept her until June while I looked for an appropriate home for her, and she's doing very, very well now. She's still very small, but she is sweet and well loved.
I'm a serious hobbyist and I take my own husbandry very seriously. I personally know many other hobbyists and breeders, and I've never seen a situation like this before.

[Junkyard]

Oh, and yes, the dragon did have vet issues. She had a deformed foot and was very undersized for her age. She is still very small.
If this dragon had a deformed foot and was undersize, why did you go ahead with the purchase? I see no reason to come and note that the animal was in a poor condition when you went out to the house and picked it up.
You're also well aware that the dragon you sold to me had a deformed foot, something I was unaware of until I showed up to pick her up, and she was incredibly small for 7 months. She was the size of my 3 month old babies.
At this point you could have walked away.

Do you know for a fact that they kept a male in with a lot of juvenile females? I own a few dragons, but I have not been around them enough to be able to look at one and tell if it is a male or female without lifting the tails.

Thank you Bill. I was hesitant to post to the BOI because of just this situation, it always seems to get personal and it was not my intention to post a personal attack.
This is a personal attack, you came here to complain about the husbandry of another person. It was your decision to bring this up, thus you will be questioned emensly over this. Right now it is one persons word against another.

I do not condone the keeping of iguanas with dragons, there is no reason for that to happen since cages are so inexpensive nowadays. Heck a 4 x 4 x 2 foot cage can cost $60 in materials and 45 minutes to put together. If their is no more space for a cage, then it is time to stop buying and breeding, or move out.

[The Reptile House]

Sorry waiting this long to say something bothers me. May be just me but what can I say. And you asked her when you were there to let you know later if it turned out to be a female on top of the way you felt.
Posting anything on the BOI now days does result in a battle he said she said I highly agree with you there, you certainly got what you expected but I had to speak up, sorry.
I have been in many homes and business that have horrible practices, bottom line you say thanks but I will pass. You only feed into the so called problem if you do, sorry. Feeling sorry for the reptiles or not. It is hard to pass sure as heck it is but people really need to speak up and say something. Not at the place of business I like you would not have done that you sure do not want anything to ever happen when you do not know who you are dealing with( By the way I am not referring to Gloria she would NEVER have gotten into it with you she is not that type of person) Other yes!
However if it bothered you that much a e-mail to her when you got back home or comming here on the BOI should have been done when this happened, you should have made the time to do so busy or not and made it awair of when it happened.
It is still hard for me to believe this really did happen, granted I was not there in March and yes it is your word there is nothing I can do to 100% say no.
Gloria is a great person 100% honest and I bet if you offered your oppinion at that time via e-mail , phone or on the BOI she would have taken it to hart and would have taken your opinion on how to better things OR better yet told you why!
When I met her she was fresh into things I helped her out a lot and got her into vending at shows with us, she has grown a lot along the way.
Ok so you say she had multipal dragons housed together. They were healthy
though correct, just small? Cages were clean? That is probably a yes for both since you did not mention anything like that.
She is down to only seven breeders when I spoke with her today and some older juvinals and some babies that will more than likely be at the show.
Ok the Iguana thing ya sure your not supposed to mix stuff but giving that a lot of people sure do a lot of it these days, that set aside though.
Her cages are huge enough to house many dragons together and she stated on here that she was in the process of getting more in.
Was this more than likely a fluke that when you were there things may have been a bit clustered due to this? Sure because I will state again this is not how she runs things! She takes great pride in what she does. She is a stand up gal and I will back her up any time with her dragons.

You know a lot of people are just like her. Heat goes down in cages, you have more take than expected and are over run, you have to double up till you can get things fixed. Do you know how many people this has happened to, A lot. A lot of people have been in that same boat, that does not make them bad people enough to bash them here on the BOI.
Bottom line:
You did not ask why so many were housed together, if you did she would have told you that right there and then, case closed she has fixed the so called problem you had with her. She got her new cages in, has cut down her stock etc.
I really think people need to see this as a oversight and that she was correcting the problem and it was in process the whole time you were there. You took it the wrong way and with not speaking up have given her a bad rap for something she was awair of the intire time.
Even with this here I still know she would invite you back to view her dragons any time and it would not be what you saw.
Sincerely Shanell.

And just to let you know when I was breeding dragons I had runts as well and they do grow at a much smaller pace, hay it happens to all of us. Being undersized and having a deformed foot does not mean that she was not healthy, she just had a foot and size issue. When they get injured they slow down, they try and heal them selves not go 90 miles an hour to keep up with the rest. You made it sound like she was sick with something when it turn she was pretty much fine for what she was!

[The Reptile House]

Thanks JUNKYARD! Shanell,

[Denisebme]

Junkyard,
I thought I had said why I went through with the purchase. Look, I don't much like cats, and I own 2 of them. Why? because they were in horrible situations and I took them in. I've purchased sick reptiles from pet stores before because I knew if I left them there, they'd die. Every time I've done this, I've done it without having a cow or causing a scene because it simply does no good to do that, and I am not in the habit of wasting my breath or my time.
Yes, I absolutely know she had males in with females. Small females that appeared to be sub-adults or large Juvies, and I know this because she pointed the males out to me.
You're right, I could have walked away. I didn't have to bring her home or go through the expense of taking her to the vet. I didn't have to say anything here, I could have walked away from that responsibility too. I brought her home because I felt it was the right thing to do at the time, and I said something now because it is the right thing to do.
Look, some people have husbandry issues simply because they don't know any better. If you're going to breed though, its your JOB to know.

[Denisebme]

Sorry waiting this long to say something bothers me. May be just me but what can I say. And you asked her when you were there to let you know later if it turned out to be a female on top of the way you felt.
Posting anything on the BOI now days does result in a battle he said she said I highly agree with you there, you certainly got what you expected but I had to speak up, sorry.
I have been in many homes and business that have horrible practices, bottom line you say thanks but I will pass. You only feed into the so called problem if you do, sorry. Feeling sorry for the reptiles or not. It is hard to pass sure as heck it is but people really need to speak up and say something. Not at the place of business I like you would not have done that you sure do not want anything to ever happen when you do not know who you are dealing with( By the way I am not referring to Gloria she would NEVER have gotten into it with you she is not that type of person) Other yes!
However if it bothered you that much a e-mail to her when you got back home or comming here on the BOI should have been done when this happened, you should have made the time to do so busy or not and made it awair of when it happened.
It is still hard for me to believe this really did happen, granted I was not there in March and yes it is your word there is nothing I can do to 100% say no.
Gloria is a great person 100% honest and I bet if you offered your oppinion at that time via e-mail , phone or on the BOI she would have taken it to hart and would have taken your opinion on how to better things OR better yet told you why!
When I met her she was fresh into things I helped her out a lot and got her into vending at shows with us, she has grown a lot along the way.
Ok so you say she had multipal dragons housed together. They were healthy
though correct, just small? Cages were clean? That is probably a yes for both since you did not mention anything like that.
She is down to only seven breeders when I spoke with her today and some older juvinals and some babies that will more than likely be at the show.
Ok the Iguana thing ya sure your not supposed to mix stuff but giving that a lot of people sure do a lot of it these days, that set aside though.
Her cages are huge enough to house many dragons together and she stated on here that she was in the process of getting more in.
Was this more than likely a fluke that when you were there things may have been a bit clustered due to this? Sure because I will state again this is not how she runs things! She takes great pride in what she does. She is a stand up gal and I will back her up any time with her dragons.

You know a lot of people are just like her. Heat goes down in cages, you have more take than expected and are over run, you have to double up till you can get things fixed. Do you know how many people this has happened to, A lot. A lot of people have been in that same boat, that does not make them bad people enough to bash them here on the BOI.
Bottom line:
You did not ask why so many were housed together, if you did she would have told you that right there and then, case closed she has fixed the so called problem you had with her. She got her new cages in, has cut down her stock etc.
I really think people need to see this as a oversight and that she was correcting the problem and it was in process the whole time you were there. You took it the wrong way and with not speaking up have given her a bad rap for something she was awair of the intire time.
Even with this here I still know she would invite you back to view her dragons any time and it would not be what you saw.
Sincerely Shanell.

And just to let you know when I was breeding dragons I had runts as well and they do grow at a much smaller pace, hay it happens to all of us. Being undersized and having a deformed foot does not mean that she was not healthy, she just had a foot and size issue. When they get injured they slow down, they try and heal them selves not go 90 miles an hour to keep up with the rest. You made it sound like she was sick with something when it turn she was pretty much fine for what she was!


Ok, one thing at a time. You have a absolute right to speak up.
Look, before I go any further, I'll say this. I know Bearded Dragons. Not only do I have my own breeding colony, and have had for quite some time. I've owned reptiles for close to 30 years and do reptile rescue and education work in the community I live in. One of the reasons I was so "late" posting this thread is because we are very busy in the late spring and summer, and this year was the craziest I've had.
That said, there are runts in every clutch and they simply aren't ever meant to be bred. Putting small, undersized females in with a male, and that is absolutely what I saw, is simply irresponsible.
I also NEVER said that the baby I got from her was "sick". I said I took the baby immediately to the vet. Why? Because she was clearly undersized and she clearly had issues with her foot that needed to be dealt with. We aren't talking about a minor little deformity, part of one of the dragons toes was dead and still attached, which can cause infection. She HAD to go to the vet.

Look, I'm a beardie hobbyist because I have a passion for them. I absolutely believe that in order to keep this species healthy and vibrant in this country we need to avoid the issues that we've seen with other speicies, and that means responsible breeding. I'm obviously not in this to make money. Responsible breeding means that you don't breed under-sized or under-aged animals.
People can make their minds up for themselves. I did not come here to "sell" my opinion to anyone, just to let them know what I witnessed.

[The Reptile House]

Yep but you also asked her to get back to you if the other one you saw was a female, she e-mailed you to let you know it was a male. You sertanly do NOT do that if you are se horrified with the way she keeps things.

Bottom line if you ever bothered to ask her is this:
She had cages on order and had to put more in with each other till they arrived!
She now has 11 cages as well as more to house the babies in, they are no longer the way you saw them and were taken apart as soon as she got the other cages in!
This was a one time deal 7 months ago!! Don't go telling me that no one esle has ever been there before!
Next time take the darn 5 min to post if something makes you mad! Not when a breeder posts up new adds for some top notch, beautiful looking dragons.
Also you purchased a dragon with a nip, new that then and still took it, you walked away said nothing to her and she said you seemed happy with the little dragon! You made it appear to sound worse than that.
This has been taken care of by her and has for some time now!
Shanell.

[ice12788]

Ya know, what this sounds like to me is that you saw desert dragons as competition and decided to use smear tactics to try to bring a good business down. The excuse of waiting 7 months because you were too busy, is total BS. If you were really concerned you would have brought this up a long time ago, and if you really were busy, you would have MADE the time instead of making excuses. Then you come here trying to sound self-righteous, like you HAD to intervine or your concience would haunt you forever. To be honest, I think it is hilarious how you make yourself sound like the righteous crusader, going around the world saving all the helpless and mistreated animals in the world. You claim to not be in it for the money, but don't you sell dragons also? By definition, if you are selling something for money, than you are in it to make a profit, and removing a key competitor in the local region sounds like a motive for making money, not saving beardies. Just thought i'd put in my 2 cents.

[Denisebme]

Uh no. That is simply not true. She did have one little, and I mean little, colorful baby when I was there, and I did comment on it. She emailed about it later, and I said I had no interest in it. Period end of story.
What happens if you put males in with a bunch of females in March? They breed, that's what they do. Males do not care if the female is to young, or to small, or not ready, they just breed. It's up to the breeder to control this, to make SURE that you don't have more dragons than you can adequetly house or care for. To make sure that all your breedings are planned. Thats what responsible hobbyists do.
You can spin it and twist it anyway you like. I'm very clear, I have no idea what her situation is right now, I know what it was like in March, and I'm also smart enough to know that any babies she has right now were probably bred about that time, and it is more than likely that they are a result of the pairings I saw, and that, simply put, is just sad.
I also know plenty of breeders, and not one that I know would house that many dragons together, and they would never house males and females together EXCEPT for the short period of time it takes them to breed. They also would not have females to small for breeding in with males, and they sure would NEVER house them with an Iguana that is WAY bigger than the dragons. That in itself is a recipe for disaster. Not only can the iguana do serious damage to the dragons, but you're also exposing both species to issues they should not be exposed too.
I don't know where you get the idea that I bought a dragon with a nip because I did no such thing. I bought a dragon with a deformity that was risking the dragons health. The foot was NOT nipped, nor did I say it was.
Should I have posted something sooner? I'm not even sure why that is an issue. I have a life, I work, I have 6 kids, I do not live on Fauna. I was hesitant to post anything negative about anyone simply because, believe it or not, I'm actually a nice person and I don't enjoy the pissing matches I've seen happen here.

[Denisebme]

Your 2 cents are actually worth less that that. No, I did not, do not, nor would I ever consider Desert Dragons to be "competition". Quite the contrary. I have close friends that breed dragons, and they aren't "competition" either. People who are doing the right thing, responsibly breeding, practicing responsible husbandry, are my peers. They do this because they love this species, not because its a business.
Yes, I do breed on a very small scale. Its never been a money making venture for me and that isn't what its about to me.
I also know one other thing. You just registered, this is your very first post, so chances are, you were sent here to tear me apart, and it isn't going to work.
I came here for one reason and one reason only, and that is to use the BOI for the purpose it was designed for. I posted about a husbandry issue that I saw with my own two eyes, that I know is 100% factually correct.

[Junkyard]

Junkyard,
I thought I had said why I went through with the purchase. Look, I don't much like cats, and I own 2 of them. Why? because they were in horrible situations and I took them in. I've purchased sick reptiles from pet stores before because I knew if I left them there, they'd die. Every time I've done this, I've done it without having a cow or causing a scene because it simply does no good to do that, and I am not in the habit of wasting my breath or my time.
Yes, I absolutely know she had males in with females. Small females that appeared to be sub-adults or large Juvies, and I know this because she pointed the males out to me.
You're right, I could have walked away. I didn't have to bring her home or go through the expense of taking her to the vet. I didn't have to say anything here, I could have walked away from that responsibility too. I brought her home because I felt it was the right thing to do at the time, and I said something now because it is the right thing to do.
Look, some people have husbandry issues simply because they don't know any better. If you're going to breed though, its your JOB to know.
You made a very good point here that I put in bold. You have a very big heart for animals and I have a great amount of respect for those who can properly take and care for the critters that need good homes.

From what I have read, it seems like they have things straightened out now, more cages, less dragons with each other, and are able to care for them. If this is true, then there is no reason to push any further on the issue since they have cleaned up their act and their animals. If this is not true, then your warning is taken seriously. The only problem is we really do not know how things are without being there ourselves. Anyone near by willing to stop in and meet Desert Dragons in their home?

[Denisebme]

You made a very good point here that I put in bold. You have a very big heart for animals and I have a great amount of respect for those who can properly take and care for the critters that need good homes.

From what I have read, it seems like they have things straightened out now, more cages, less dragons with each other, and are able to care for them. If this is true, then there is no reason to push any further on the issue since they have cleaned up their act and their animals. If this is not true, then your warning is taken seriously. The only problem is we really do not know how things are without being there ourselves. Anyone near by willing to stop in and meet Desert Dragons in their home?

Thank You. Like you, I hope they have resolved the issues I saw, and I would be thrilled if someone who is completely unbiased (does not have an existing business relationship) took a look to insure that the issues have been resolved.

[The Reptile House]

"part of one of the dragons toes was dead and still attached, "
Quote form you. That is due to a nip bite from another dragon, possibly form chasing after the same cricket.
Gloria said the foot was not deformed at all so who really knows but her.
This has been taken care of END OF STORY! It sounds like your way too busy for anything and that is all your excuse is for not comming here sooner. I do not know how you found the time to go see her in the first place.
Out of all the dragons you had to choose from you took that one with the nip and smaller for her age. Possibly because she was cheaper in price as well? All her other dragons were fine I assume?
You took that one, decided to take that one out of all the rest them come here so long after and gripe that YOU took a SMALLER and NIPPED dragon form her and paid for it. Give me a break. That was your choice to do so, END OF STORY.
And by the way that post from the other person stating compition figures in, that was the first thing that came to mind for me as well I just did not state it. Of course you would not call your close breeder friends compition but some stranger close to you you may.
For everyone else who reads this I am sure you can come to the conclusion that she paired up while her other cages were on order. Everyone in the dragon business comes across nips, runts, bites, it happens to the smallest of breeders and biggest of breeders.
Scales kept multipal dragons in there cages. They had beautiful dragons for sale just like gloria but no one would ever complain when they were around and I wish they still were.
This thread is done with unless you want to make any more excuses for yourself. Sincerely Shanell.

[Cat_72]

Do all breeders keep their dragons caged with a big ol Iguana?

I think Denise had plenty of legitimate reason to post what she did, and I don't believe she had anything less than the best of intentions with her post. I hope the situation indeed has been rectified, but that does not mean it never existed.

[liquidleaf]

Exactly, Cathy. In my opinion, it's in poor taste to state "that dead toe was from a nip from another dragon from chasing after the same cricket"... you already stated you do not know what the dragon's foot looks/looked like, Shanell. Overzealous defense of a friend can wind up looking bad. Denise had a concern. The concern wasn't with the dragon she bought (until that was brought up later), but with the caging she saw.

I would be very concerned as well if I saw an iguana caged with a bearded dragon. And yet both Shanell and Gloria just "set that aside". I do understand how caging can become an issue. I personally just adopted two BCC that needed a home, but since one of the cages they came with was too large to fit in my front door, I have them both in the same cage (the smaller 5ftx2ft that WOULD fit in my house). That is not ideal to me. So I can understand how temporary housing more than the appropriate number of animals in one cage can be necessary.... but not keeping an iguana with such a small lizard.

I'm glad that more cages were on order, I hope that all the animals are housed appropriately now, and believe that that's all Denise wanted to see happen. Denise probably saw so many ads, that she hoped Gloria wasn't running a "dragon mill" of sorts. I can understand that, and the delay in posting. Trying to come up with all sorts of "oh, she's trying to smear competition" - that looks bad. Should have kept to facts, in my opinion - new cages were ordered, yes, there was an overcrowded period, but not any longer. That is a good explanation, no "smearing" needed.

Should Denise have bought a dragon she was not perfectly happy with? Probably not, but there are many people such as she who will always buy animals to 'rescue' them. In my opinion, while it shows big-heartedness, this method of 'rescue', especially in poor-quality pet stores, does not solve the problem, and just puts money in the pocket of the business that may have husbandry issues, sending them the message that they are doing something RIGHT.

All are just my opinions after reading the whole thread. Everyone's entitled ;).

[The Reptile House]

I do not condone it, I stated that it's not the best to keep them housed together and should not be done, that being said alto of people do it and that is there prerogative, me no I personally would not and never have and never plan on it.
Now you think I look bad standing up for her.To see a good friend getting smeared for overcrowding WHILE HER CAGES WERE ON ORDER, my gosh!
You know the more I read here no matter what thread it is it makes me more and more want to get out of the hobby I love so much, there is so much trash talking, fighting, smearing, threats, scams etc. It sure is NOTHING like this industry was even 2 years ago. Frankly it makes me sick to see just how down hill it's going.
Say whatever you want, believe whoever you want it's everyone's own opinion no matter if you know them personally or not!
To me at this point I am taking a really big breath to even see if it is all worth it anymore.
To speak up and help someone, give advice and show people a better path instead of walk away and seem happy makes things alto worse then they appear as seen here. Maybe you will speak up next time you are somewhere you do not see things fit and all things like this can be avoided in the future.
Sincerely Shanell.

[liquidleaf]

I never said you look bad standing up for her... but everybody involved should try to stay with the facts (like I said, I completely understand the cage shortage situation!)... but saying that the concerned party has ulterior motive beyond what they said here just sounds overly defensive, almost guilty, though I'm sure as you said it was a temporary situation that is now rectified. Just my opinion that theories about "ulterior motives" such as the comments about competition, have helped make the BOI very much like a soap opera, and if people kept more to statements of fact, that wouldn't happen. That's all I was trying to say. No offense meant.

[Xelda]

I don't see how waiting seven months to post is an issue. If Denise had been seeking compensation, then waiting seven months to say anything would be ridiculous. But she's not looking for a refund or free dragon or help with vet bills. It doesn't even sound like she's trying to contact Gloria. Her motive is clearly to inform other buyers of her experience, which she is entitled to do. Isn't that the premise of the BOI?

Her experience sure does seem a bit more firsthand than Shanell's. I can understand falling behind, having animals housed in temporary non-ideal conditions, but if my collection isn't presentable, I simply don't invite anybody over. :shrug01:

I think the best resolution to the matter is to have Denise pay a follow up visit or two to Gloria's facility to see how things have changed. I think anybody who is concerned about the animals would be delighted to see/hear that their living conditions have improved.

[critical bill]

Now you think I look bad standing up for her.To see a good friend getting smeared for overcrowding WHILE HER CAGES WERE ON ORDER, my gosh!

There is a solution to overcrowding. Proper planning and assessment of future growth. A collector or breeder who finds themselves in a position to insufficiently house a collection of animals is a person who did not plan before acquiring the animals or breeding them to produce more. To say in defense "well I realized this now and I did have some cages on order to rectify the situation" is no defense at all.

Animals should not have to wait for cages, cages should be waiting for animals.

Of course theres also another very easy solution to overcrowing, which in this case may tend to stem from population growth through breeding and that is to breed selectively and in proportion to anticipated offspring -vs- currently available cage space. If the numbers tell you that more cage space will be needed to meet the volume of what your producing or holding back then efforts to produce more should be put on hold until caging in proper numbers can be acquired.

[Beardie]

Normally I wouldn't comment on this because I do not know Desert Dragons or the complainee but speaking from a breeders viewpoint it is very hard to sell or place ANY Bearded Dragons right now so it would be easy to get unexpectably over crowded very quickly.

When I planned and started to breed last Feb. The market appeared fine. I breed very little and didn't anticipate a problem. As spring approached and my babies started to hatch I started hearing complaints about not being able to sell dragons. It has only gotten worse since then. I see adds all over with people selling off their breeding stock because either number one, since the economy is bad, out of work etc. they can't afford their dragons (I do feel bad for these people) or number two... the more common situation...the people who jumped in to make a fast buck but found they can't sell anything are now dumping dragons below market or selling them at 2-4 weeks old for $15 to $25 to unsuspecting new owners. It is making it difficult to next to impossible to sell much of anything. The babies continue to grow and need more space but have'nt gone to new homes so ...there you have it...a major cage shortage. I am lucky and was able to get some extra pre-built (I can't build them my self) cages quickly but even so I know I do not have enough to house all the babies I have as adults. I had planned to breed one female this fall...it won't happen. I don't even know if I will breed again next spring.

I don't know if that is what is going on here but I do know it is a problem for a lot of responsible breeders.

[Denisebme]

"part of one of the dragons toes was dead and still attached, "
Quote form you. That is due to a nip bite from another dragon, possibly form chasing after the same cricket.
Gloria said the foot was not deformed at all so who really knows but her.
This has been taken care of END OF STORY! It sounds like your way too busy for anything and that is all your excuse is for not comming here sooner. I do not know how you found the time to go see her in the first place.
Out of all the dragons you had to choose from you took that one with the nip and smaller for her age. Possibly because she was cheaper in price as well? All her other dragons were fine I assume?
You took that one, decided to take that one out of all the rest them come here so long after and gripe that YOU took a SMALLER and NIPPED dragon form her and paid for it. Give me a break. That was your choice to do so, END OF STORY.
And by the way that post from the other person stating compition figures in, that was the first thing that came to mind for me as well I just did not state it. Of course you would not call your close breeder friends compition but some stranger close to you you may.
For everyone else who reads this I am sure you can come to the conclusion that she paired up while her other cages were on order. Everyone in the dragon business comes across nips, runts, bites, it happens to the smallest of breeders and biggest of breeders.
Scales kept multipal dragons in there cages. They had beautiful dragons for sale just like gloria but no one would ever complain when they were around and I wish they still were.
This thread is done with unless you want to make any more excuses for yourself. Sincerely Shanell.

You are 100% wrong Shannell. I know that dragons foot was not nipped and so did my vet. She also was not cheap, I paid over $200 for that dragon, and knowing who I am, I'd do it again if I saw another dragon in the same situation.
Oh, and for the record, I already know who the person is who came in here all worried about "competition", and he is not exactly unconnected with this whole issue. He came in here to drop a personal attack, end of story.
This bull is EXACTLY why I did not post 7 months ago. That one 5 minute post has now cost me hours of time, just defending myself, and strangely enough, I did NOTHING wrong.
I don't care what Scales did or did not do, if they were housing males and very young or small females together, they screwed up too. If they were housing dragons with Iguana's, shame on them.
Do I know if Gloria's other dragons were "fine"? No, I don't. Now, I'd like to note here that I came here with a very specific issue about her husbandry, which we BOTH KNOW was bad. I did not attack her for her breeding practices, which in my opinion were also bad, because I know that lots of people are doing the same thing she's doing in regards to breeding females that are to small. I didn't even mention HOW MANY dragons she had in the same cage, I just said multiple, and we both know that if I had done that, this would be a much bigger issue than it is.
So, do me a favor. Get off it. I am NOT the bad guy here, and there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to change that.

[Denisebme]

Exactly, Cathy. In my opinion, it's in poor taste to state "that dead toe was from a nip from another dragon from chasing after the same cricket"... you already stated you do not know what the dragon's foot looks/looked like, Shanell. Overzealous defense of a friend can wind up looking bad. Denise had a concern. The concern wasn't with the dragon she bought (until that was brought up later), but with the caging she saw.

I would be very concerned as well if I saw an iguana caged with a bearded dragon. And yet both Shanell and Gloria just "set that aside". I do understand how caging can become an issue. I personally just adopted two BCC that needed a home, but since one of the cages they came with was too large to fit in my front door, I have them both in the same cage (the smaller 5ftx2ft that WOULD fit in my house). That is not ideal to me. So I can understand how temporary housing more than the appropriate number of animals in one cage can be necessary.... but not keeping an iguana with such a small lizard.

I'm glad that more cages were on order, I hope that all the animals are housed appropriately now, and believe that that's all Denise wanted to see happen. Denise probably saw so many ads, that she hoped Gloria wasn't running a "dragon mill" of sorts. I can understand that, and the delay in posting. Trying to come up with all sorts of "oh, she's trying to smear competition" - that looks bad. Should have kept to facts, in my opinion - new cages were ordered, yes, there was an overcrowded period, but not any longer. That is a good explanation, no "smearing" needed.

Should Denise have bought a dragon she was not perfectly happy with? Probably not, but there are many people such as she who will always buy animals to 'rescue' them. In my opinion, while it shows big-heartedness, this method of 'rescue', especially in poor-quality pet stores, does not solve the problem, and just puts money in the pocket of the business that may have husbandry issues, sending them the message that they are doing something RIGHT.

All are just my opinions after reading the whole thread. Everyone's entitled ;).

Thank you Lauren, you hit it square on the head.
Like you, I completely understand temporary over-crowding, we've all dealt with that. If that had appeared to be the situation here, I never would have said anything. That was not the case here. My husband swears it was 10, I think it was more like 5 or 6, female dragons caged with males. Some of the females appeared to be 6 or 7 months old and small. It wasn't a "cage-mate" situation where people house 2 females together in a huge cage.
I also at first did not make an issue of the dragon I bought. I know it doesn't help to buy them, and believe me, my husband complained the whole hour drive home about paying $200 for a dragon that we were then going to incur a vet bill on.
My concern was simple. People on this forum are looking at the classifieds, and they have no idea the conditions that dragons are kept in when they buy them. I did what I considered to be the responsible thing when I saw the ads, and I stand by that. My only "agenda" going into this was to let people know what I saw, a condition that has pretty much been admitted to, so why am I the bad guy now?

[Denisebme]

Normally I wouldn't comment on this because I do not know Desert Dragons or the complainee but speaking from a breeders viewpoint it is very hard to sell or place ANY Bearded Dragons right now so it would be easy to get unexpectably over crowded very quickly.

When I planned and started to breed last Feb. The market appeared fine. I breed very little and didn't anticipate a problem. As spring approached and my babies started to hatch I started hearing complaints about not being able to sell dragons. It has only gotten worse since then. I see adds all over with people selling off their breeding stock because either number one, since the economy is bad, out of work etc. they can't afford their dragons (I do feel bad for these people) or number two... the more common situation...the people who jumped in to make a fast buck but found they can't sell anything are now dumping dragons below market or selling them at 2-4 weeks old for $15 to $25 to unsuspecting new owners. It is making it difficult to next to impossible to sell much of anything. The babies continue to grow and need more space but have'nt gone to new homes so ...there you have it...a major cage shortage. I am lucky and was able to get some extra pre-built (I can't build them my self) cages quickly but even so I know I do not have enough to house all the babies I have as adults. I had planned to breed one female this fall...it won't happen. I don't even know if I will breed again next spring.

I don't know if that is what is going on here but I do know it is a problem for a lot of responsible breeders.

Linda.
I completely appreciate everything you've said. Believe me, I understand temporary overcrowding, particularly with babies. If that was the case here, I never would have said anything.

[Iguanalady]

"Denisebme wrote:"Look, I don't much like cats, and I own 2 of them. Why? because they were in horrible situations and I took them in. I've purchased sick reptiles from pet stores before because I knew if I left them there, they'd die."

I work in rescue and I have to point out the fact that buying sick animals is not rescueing them, it is telling the pet stores and breeders that people feel sorry for the sick or lame animal and will buy it, so what happens? They have more sick and dying animals. When doing rescue, I never pay for an animal. It is either surrendered or given freely so that the poor thing might have a chance at a healthy life. Your heart is in the right place, but you are doing what most people do, buy a sick animal and the pet stores are just replacing them with more sick animals.

Second Point: I bought a bearded dragon from Gloria and I had her vet checked, she is a very healthy beautifully colored girl. I find it hard to believe that Gloria would not properly care for her animals as this one is perfect. The communication was good and the deal went smoothly. I got a beautiful healthy girl and am happy with her. I myself and having to purchase new cages because I still have a growing surplus of babies left over from this past season. Would you come into my house and condemn me because you don't like the fact that I have 3 females in a 100 gal tank? PLEASSSSSSEEEEE! Give me a break!

[Denisebme]

"Denisebme wrote:"Look, I don't much like cats, and I own 2 of them. Why? because they were in horrible situations and I took them in. I've purchased sick reptiles from pet stores before because I knew if I left them there, they'd die."

I work in rescue and I have to point out the fact that buying sick animals is not rescueing them, it is telling the pet stores and breeders that people feel sorry for the sick or lame animal and will buy it, so what happens? They have more sick and dying animals. When doing rescue, I never pay for an animal. It is either surrendered or given freely so that the poor thing might have a chance at a healthy life. Your heart is in the right place, but you are doing what most people do, buy a sick animal and the pet stores are just replacing them with more sick animals.

Second Point: I bought a bearded dragon from Gloria and I had her vet checked, she is a very healthy beautifully colored girl. I find it hard to believe that Gloria would not properly care for her animals as this one is perfect. The communication was good and the deal went smoothly. I got a beautiful healthy girl and am happy with her. I myself and having to purchase new cages because I still have a growing surplus of babies left over from this past season. Would you come into my house and condemn me because you don't like the fact that I have 3 females in a 100 gal tank? PLEASSSSSSEEEEE! Give me a break!

I'm glad you had got a healthy beardie, and of course I'm not condemning anyone for being a little overcrowded. If that had been the case, I never would have said anything, and I have said that repeatedly.
So, lets get back to the real points here.
Point one: Maybe I shouldn't have purchased the animal. I didn't go there to "rescue" anything, and I did what I thought was right in that moment. Would I do it again? I'm not going to say no, because I know who I am.
Second point: While I'm sure that you see this as an issue of simple "overcrowding", housing 5 or 6 females, some very small, with males is not. Housing adult dragons, a couple of them, with a big iguana, is also not something that is an "overcrowding" issue. These are husbandry issues.

My last point: I came here with a very real concern, and because I believe that people are big enough to make up their own minds. I reported what I saw and what my experience was. I didn't jump up and down and make any allegations that were untrue, and since the breeder and her friend have freely admitted that there were housing issues, while playing down just how big the housing issues were, it isn't rocket science to figure out that my concerns were well justified.
I'll tell you something else. I was warned repeatedly before I posted this issue to the BOI that it probably wasn't a good idea because instead of focusing on the issues, I would be attacked for posting. I did it anyway, after a lot of thought and hesitation, because it was the RIGHT thing to do. I'm not sure I'd do it again, because it seems like people are more than happy to attack the messenger instead of realizing that improper husbandry is a real concern.

[Iguanalady]

See, I have done the same thing only to find out that the people who backed me up on a thread never followed through with proof. Unless you have proof, I.E. photos, e-mails and documentation, this is simply an he said, she said thread. How do we know that you just didn't have a problem with this person and decided to wreck her reputation? Not saying that you are a liar, but where's your proof? What you saw isn't enough on the BOI, just as I found out myself. I save all e-mails when I do a deal, all photos and any other documentation I accumulate during any deal, good or bad. When I come here from now on, it will be a solid case. That is not the situation here. This IS a he said she said thread.

[Denisebme]

See, I have done the same thing only to find out that the people who backed me up on a thread never followed through with proof. Unless you have proof, I.E. photos, e-mails and documentation, this is simply an he said, she said thread. How do we know that you just didn't have a problem with this person and decided to wreck her reputation? Not saying that you are a liar, but where's your proof? What you saw isn't enough on the BOI, just as I found out myself. I save all e-mails when I do a deal, all photos and any other documentation I accumulate during any deal, good or bad. When I come here from now on, it will be a solid case. That is not the situation here. This IS a he said she said thread.

No, this is absolutely not a "he said/she said" situation. I brought a concern to the BOI, one that the breeder herself has not denied was absolutely 100% the case when I saw her set-up.
How do you know I don't have a problem with Gloria personally? I don't even know Gloria, I have never engaged in any negative behavior on this or any forum, and my history on Fauna proves that absolutely.
I came her to post a very real concern to the BOI. I have no idea what your stake in this is, but I simply don't have one at all. I'm not in the habit of carrying camera's into peoples homes on the off chance that they might have serious husbandry issues, nor is there any way to document it unless you do so.
Now, I know what I saw, and no one has even attempted to contradict what I saw. They completely glossed over the fact that they were housing beardies with an Iguana . They have made this out to be an overcrowding issue. My opinion is that this is simply not the case. It was not a case of 2 or 3 females housed together, it was 5 or 6 females housed with males in every adult cage I saw.
Now, I've already said that I'm happy for you that you got a healthy baby. That said, a healthy baby does not always indicate good husbandry, nor do you have any way of knowing the breeding conditions of an animal that is shipped to you. I saw the breeding conditions.

[Rebel Dragons]

I personally feel that Denise did nothing wrong by posting this here on the BOI. Her post is simply a warning to others that she feels that the husbandry practices of this breeder are sub par, IN HER OPINION. To me she really didn't say anything less or anything more. She provided her opinion after doing business with Gloria and she's entitles to do that. Other members have come forward and offered their opinions. We now have differing opinions on the same breeder and readers can take stock in whatever one they want. Not everyone is going to agree with someone else's husbandry techniques.

I don't think Denise was trying to ruin Gloria's reputation and I don't feel she made this post to "take out" her competition. All I see is a warning for others to take caution when dealing with this breeder and why.......

Now a lot of things could have changed in the past 7 months. By some of the other posts being made it seems that that is the case. Now that those changes are made and conditions have apparently improved let's let things run their course and let Gloria's dragons and future customers speak themselves. If her reputation is going to take a hit it will happen because things still aren't right with her operation. If nothing bad is posted then we can all walk away knowing that things have improved and that the situation described by Denise was a one time thing.

[Iguanalady]

I have nothing at stake here with Gloria. I did business with her and found her very professional. I find it hard to believe that she would be so careless. How do you know those were males in with the females? Did you lift their tails to find out? Were the beards black and bobbing? I agree with Sunny, that you have a right to voice your concerns, but the experience I had with Gloria was excellent and I don't buy your story. I have a right to my opinion as you do. I have been reamed because I couldn't produce proof on a BOI inquiry. That is all I am asking for is proof. What you say you saw doesn't hold water. I could say I went to your house and didn't agree with your husbandry skills then come here and post how bad things were, then someone would turn around and ask me the same question. Where's your proof.....he said, she said!

[dandddragons]

In MHO, unless you can accurately sex the dragons being housed together, it is extremely difficult to make any assumptions on groupings in an enclosure, as well as breeding age or size. We do not place more than a 1:2 group together at any time. Please take note that we are hobby breeders and this how we chose to group. It is also very possible have it appear that one may be much younger/ smaller than the others simply by the genetics they carry. We have a 24" blood/ G.G. male who was currently housed with a 21" red/ gold female and a 19 1/2" red/ hypo female. He absolutely dwarfed them both but everything was fine to them. I removed both females to another set-up and added a separate female who is 18" and she looks small.All of them are over 18 months old and very healthy and show no signs or ill-effects. What I'm trying to say is, it is unfair to make accusations or statements unless you have all the facts in regards to another persons breeding/ housing or husbandry standards. I will admit that I may skip a day with cleaning or bath time but that may be due to my work schedule and don't feel it adversely effects our dragons. If anyone with more than 1 pair of dragons breeding has trouble with the understanding it can and usually does get quite crowded in the dragons room in a hurry. We currently have 4 tanks set up with babies- 16 4 weeks old in 2 and 18 3days old in the other 2. On top of those, we have 20 more expected in 2 weeks and 20 more at thanksgiving. So anyone want to talk about running out of space! It's just one of those things that can happen and very quickly at that. I have nothing to gain or lose by posting- just my 2 cents.
________________________

Doug Martin
DandD Dragons

[Denisebme]

I have nothing at stake here with Gloria. I did business with her and found her very professional. I find it hard to believe that she would be so careless. How do you know those were males in with the females? Did you lift their tails to find out? Were the beards black and bobbing? I agree with Sunny, that you have a right to voice your concerns, but the experience I had with Gloria was excellent and I don't buy your story. I have a right to my opinion as you do. I have been reamed because I couldn't produce proof on a BOI inquiry. That is all I am asking for is proof. What you say you saw doesn't hold water. I could say I went to your house and didn't agree with your husbandry skills then come here and post how bad things were, then someone would turn around and ask me the same question. Where's your proof.....he said, she said!

I know she had males in with females because she TOLD me she had males in with females and she pointed the males out to me.
This whole thing has become ridiculous. I'm not here trying to sell my opinion or anything else, I am simply stating what I saw.
Proof is right in the thread since Desert Dragons and her business have both admitted freely that there was an issue.
Breeders and hobbyists have been in my home and I've been in the homes of other breeders and hobbyists, and the ONLY reason I posted anything at all is because it was an is a disturbing situation. You have a right to your opinions, but unless you've seen for yourself what was going on, your opinion is just that.
Now, you can come in here and imply anything you like about my honesty and integrity, I could care less. I came here to post what I saw, and that's exactly what I did.

[Denisebme]

I personally feel that Denise did nothing wrong by posting this here on the BOI. Her post is simply a warning to others that she feels that the husbandry practices of this breeder are sub par, IN HER OPINION. To me she really didn't say anything less or anything more. She provided her opinion after doing business with Gloria and she's entitles to do that. Other members have come forward and offered their opinions. We now have differing opinions on the same breeder and readers can take stock in whatever one they want. Not everyone is going to agree with someone else's husbandry techniques.

I don't think Denise was trying to ruin Gloria's reputation and I don't feel she made this post to "take out" her competition. All I see is a warning for others to take caution when dealing with this breeder and why.......

Now a lot of things could have changed in the past 7 months. By some of the other posts being made it seems that that is the case. Now that those changes are made and conditions have apparently improved let's let things run their course and let Gloria's dragons and future customers speak themselves. If her reputation is going to take a hit it will happen because things still aren't right with her operation. If nothing bad is posted then we can all walk away knowing that things have improved and that the situation described by Denise was a one time thing.

Thank you Mike, I'm glad that there are some people who are seeing this for what it is.

[Iguanalady]

You have a right to your opinions, but unless you've seen for yourself what was going on, your opinion is just that.


As is yours! I am not getting into a pissing contest with you about this. I disagree with you and I do not believe you as is my right too. It seems you are trying to convince me to agree with what you SAY you saw, I do not. Let's let it be.

[Denisebme]

As is yours! I am not getting into a pissing contest with you about this. I disagree with you and I do not believe you as is my right too. It seems you are trying to convince me to agree with what you SAY you saw, I do not. Let's let it be.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you asked me questions, I answered them. I find it interesting that you're still questioning my integrity though when both Gloria and her "partner" have already pretty much agreed that I saw what I saw. The only thing that I've said that they've ignored is that they had beardies in with an iguana, and they haven't denied that either, simply refused to respond to it.
Bottom line, I've done a lot of business on fauna, almost 100% of which as the buyer, and I've never had a bad word to say about anyone else I've ever done business with, and they have never had an issue with me. I've never had an issue on the BOI, I've never brought an issue to the BOI before this, and even this time, I hesitated for a while before I brought the issue because I was clearly warned that it could and probably would be turned into a huge drama just for the sake of drama.

[Denisebme]

In MHO, unless you can accurately sex the dragons being housed together, it is extremely difficult to make any assumptions on groupings in an enclosure, as well as breeding age or size. We do not place more than a 1:2 group together at any time. Please take note that we are hobby breeders and this how we chose to group. It is also very possible have it appear that one may be much younger/ smaller than the others simply by the genetics they carry. We have a 24" blood/ G.G. male who was currently housed with a 21" red/ gold female and a 19 1/2" red/ hypo female. He absolutely dwarfed them both but everything was fine to them. I removed both females to another set-up and added a separate female who is 18" and she looks small.All of them are over 18 months old and very healthy and show no signs or ill-effects. What I'm trying to say is, it is unfair to make accusations or statements unless you have all the facts in regards to another persons breeding/ housing or husbandry standards. I will admit that I may skip a day with cleaning or bath time but that may be due to my work schedule and don't feel it adversely effects our dragons. If anyone with more than 1 pair of dragons breeding has trouble with the understanding it can and usually does get quite crowded in the dragons room in a hurry. We currently have 4 tanks set up with babies- 16 4 weeks old in 2 and 18 3days old in the other 2. On top of those, we have 20 more expected in 2 weeks and 20 more at thanksgiving. So anyone want to talk about running out of space! It's just one of those things that can happen and very quickly at that. I have nothing to gain or lose by posting- just my 2 cents.
________________________

Doug Martin
DandD Dragons

I completely understand what you're saying Doug. Believe me, I did not take posting something to the BOI lightly and would not have done it if I felt I didn't have enough information.
I've said repeatedly that I understand temporary overcrowding, particularly with babies. It can happen, and it does not necessary reflect on the breeder.
I will also repeat that I saw her caging situation, and I've been doing this long enough, I know beardies. There are few reputable breeders that don't have age and size guidelines for breeding, and better yet, most people who know beardies can tell simply by looking if a female appears to be to small for breeding.
Look, there are plenty of reasons to be concerned when someone sees something that indicates husbandry issues in breeders. Back Yard Breeders have destroyed many breeds of dog in this country, Farm Breeding has turned the Iguana into an absolute genetic mess, and because of the limited lines of bearded dragon in this country, responsible breeding is the one thing that can keep these beautiful animals healthy and vibrant. I'm not telling people not to buy from Gloria, heck, I'd even be willing to take the hour drive out there if she were to invite me to take the steps to clear this whole thing up if in fact the issues that she had are resolved, as well as taking responsibility for starting a new thread to let the whole community know that her issues are resolved. That is more than fair.
The only thing I am unwilling to do is back down one inch from what I've already stated because it is absolutely what I saw.

[Iguanalady]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you asked me questions, I answered them. I find it interesting that you're still questioning my integrity though when both Gloria and her "partner" have already pretty much agreed that I saw what I saw. The only thing that I've said that they've ignored is that they had beardies in with an iguana, and they haven't denied that either, simply refused to respond to it.
Bottom line, I've done a lot of business on fauna, almost 100% of which as the buyer, and I've never had a bad word to say about anyone else I've ever done business with, and they have never had an issue with me. I've never had an issue on the BOI, I've never brought an issue to the BOI before this, and even this time, I hesitated for a while before I brought the issue because I was clearly warned that it could and probably would be turned into a huge drama just for the sake of drama.

Funny, I just went back and read Gloria post, the only thing she agreed with you on was an overcrowding issue at that particular time. I completely disagree with the way this is all going. I am sticking to my own experiences with Gloria and I stand by her. I am a hobbiest breeder myself and have been where Gloria was with overcrowding. And since 7 months ago was breeding season, I tend to believe that she had her males with the females for breeding purposes. I breed large dragons 18" and above, but I see nothing wrong with breeding a female over 18 mos and 16-17", that is up to the breeder or individual and the colors they are trying to produce. Do you have measurements and weights of the dragons in question? Did you lift tails to see if what you said were males were males? It is hard to prove anything other then what you thought you saw. There could be many explanations not just what you think you see. You bought a dragon from Gloria, and either bought another one or was going too. Why on earth would you take a dragon from anyone who had questionable husbandry problems? Not to mention pay for it? Then turn around and wait another 7 months before you said anything? This just doesn't make any sense. How are the dragons you got from her? Are they growing? Healthy? Plans on breeding them?

[Denisebme]

Funny, I just went back and read Gloria post, the only thing she agreed with you on was an overcrowding issue at that particular time. I completely disagree with the way this is all going. I am sticking to my own experiences with Gloria and I stand by her. I am a hobbiest breeder myself and have been where Gloria was with overcrowding. And since 7 months ago was breeding season, I tend to believe that she had her males with the females for breeding purposes. I breed large dragons 18" and above, but I see nothing wrong with breeding a female over 18 mos and 16-17", that is up to the breeder or individual and the colors they are trying to produce. Do you have measurements and weights of the dragons in question? Did you lift tails to see if what you said were males were males? It is hard to prove anything other then what you thought you saw. There could be many explanations not just what you think you see. You bought a dragon from Gloria, and either bought another one or was going too. Why on earth would you take a dragon from anyone who had questionable husbandry problems? Not to mention pay for it? Then turn around and wait another 7 months before you said anything? This just doesn't make any sense. How are the dragons you got from her? Are they growing? Healthy? Plans on breeding them?

Excuse me, I bought one under-sized dragon with a deformed foot that my husband wanted to strangle me for all the way home, and never bought another one or had any intention of buying another one. Why did I buy the one? Because, strangely enough, I just felt awful for the poor thing.
I've taken dragons from other people who could not properly care for them, got them healthy, and gave them away later to adoptive homes that could and would provide the appropriate care. Look, she had more than one dragon there when I took the one with the bad foot, and you know what, it wouldn't have mattered which dragon I took, neither one of them would have ever been bred in my care. Why? Because I care about their genetics, that why.
Looking at this whole thread, its not hard to understand why anyone would hesitate before posting to the BOI, they have to put up with crap like this when they do. Did I lift tails? No.. I took her word for the fact that the dragons she pointed out as male were male, and the ones she told me were female were female. She should know her own dragons, right?
I got one dragon, that dragon was immediately taken to the vet so the foot deformity could be dealt with. I would NEVER breed a dragon that did not grow correctly, and full grown this dragon is now 14" long and 295 grams. I adopted this dragon out in June to a very good home where she will always be a much loved pet. She is fat, healthy and happy now.
I started this thread simply to educate people about what I saw, and let them make an educated decision. You've obviously made yours.

[Iguanalady]

and full grown this dragon is now 14" long and 295 grams. I adopted this dragon out in June to a very good home where she will always be a much loved pet. She is fat, healthy and happy now.
I started this thread simply to educate people about what I saw, and let them make an educated decision. You've obviously made yours.

How old was this dragon when you bought it? if it was 6 wks to three mos at the time you bought it, it would be considered a sub adult or older juvie and that weight and length would be a proper size for a dragon that age. I might have missed that point on the age somewhere. I have a very small adult dragon that I got from a friend who had rescued her. She was bred too young and is 256 grams and 9.5" with most of her tail gone. She is an adult over 1.5 years old and will never be bred because of her small size but she has such a good disposition and I am afraid someone will breed her is why she is still with me. Just curious on the age thing.

[Denisebme]

How old was this dragon when you bought it? if it was 6 wks to three mos at the time you bought it, it would be considered a sub adult or older juvie and that weight and length would be a proper size for a dragon that age. I might have missed that point on the age somewhere. I have a very small adult dragon that I got from a friend who had rescued her. She was bred too young and is 256 grams and 9.5" with most of her tail gone. She is an adult over 1.5 years old and will never be bred because of her small size but she has such a good disposition and I am afraid someone will breed her is why she is still with me. Just curious on the age thing.

She was supposed to be 7 months old when I bought her, clearly undersized already.
I am not making an issue of the dragon I bought. I knew she was undersized, I knew she had a bad foot, and I made the choice to do it. Stupid? Maybe it was. I knew I'd only be able to keep her for a few months because of my own space limitations, and I've placed her in a home where I am 100% sure she won't ever be bred.
Look, I know how dumb it is to buy animals that are genetically iffy, as this one was, or sick, or any of the other reasons why you shouldn't. The rational part of me agrees, the emotional part, the one that sees a sick or injured animal is hard to turn off, and occasionally I let my heart make the decisions even when my brain and my husband aren't happy with it.
For the record, and I think I've been clear, I do NOT regret buying Nikki, the dragon. I adore that little girl and went out of my way to put her in a home where I will always have contact with her. I also truly hope that the reports I've seen that Gloria's husbandry issues no longer exist are also correct, both for her sake, and the sake of the animals in her care.

[Iguanalady]

I am really sorry to hear that. So far my dragon seems to be an acceptable size for her age. She sounds like she may get another inch or so on her at about 14 mos old, she probably will plus gain a little more weight. Possibly an average size dragon once she is an adult. I understand where you are coming from, I used to do the same thing when I rescued dragons and iguanas. Then people kept telling me I was doing it the wrong way. So I still go to the pet store to get the things I need, I just don't go look at the reptiles because all it does is break my heart. There is nothing wrong with being an old softie, but just remember what I said in my previous posts. Buying and paying for a sick animal is not rescueing, it is only adding to the problem because they will never improve the husbandry issues as long as people are buying them.

[Denisebme]

I am really sorry to hear that. So far my dragon seems to be an acceptable size for her age. She sounds like she may get another inch or so on her at about 14 mos old, she probably will plus gain a little more weight. Possibly an average size dragon once she is an adult. I understand where you are coming from, I used to do the same thing when I rescued dragons and iguanas. Then people kept telling me I was doing it the wrong way. So I still go to the pet store to get the things I need, I just don't go look at the reptiles because all it does is break my heart. There is nothing wrong with being an old softie, but just remember what I said in my previous posts. Buying and paying for a sick animal is not rescueing, it is only adding to the problem because they will never improve the husbandry issues as long as people are buying them.

I know that. I also avoid the reptile sections in pet stores for the same reason. I know I'm a softie, and I love reptiles, and believe me when I say that we take in enough of them simply from people who get them thinking they're "cool" but have no clue how to care for them, and have no desire to learn once they find out that it can be expensive.
IMO, there is only one way to improve husbandry conditions, and that is to make the community aware when you see something that is questionable. I think that most of accept the fact that we can't change the conditions in pet stores where the sole agenda for them is making a profit. In our own community hopefully we can make a difference, and we aren't going to be able to do that if people won't speak up, or are afriad to speak up when they see an issue that should be addressed.

[The Reptile House]

Just to clarify what was stated by someone here, I am not her partner and am no part of her business nor ever have been. We own our own business and breed boas and just got back into Colubrids. I used to breed dragons and that is how I met Gloria. We are sharing a both at the upcoming show but we are 2 separate entities. She is a really good friend of mine, I know her, her dragons and how much she cares for them. I agreed that it was a problem while she had her cages on order. With all said and done people will see what they want and do what they want. I know that they are no longer kept that way and will no longer happen due to she is downsizing her breeding. She has only been doing this a very short time just a couple of years and it is very easy for it to get a bit clustered in numbers before you know it. She rectified her situation. I stood up for a friend and will continue to do so anytime the situation may arise.
Sincerely Shanell.