He Just won't gain weight...Is he stunted after being starved for 6 years?

[6y0ballpython]

Monty, our 7 year old male ball........we purchased him on April 7 of this year from a lady about a 7 hour drive from our home. He came with a 30 Gallon breeder with screen lid, all the accessories, extravagant wood chunks, hides, heater, lamp, .....you name it. These people bought everthing for this snake and so I assumed they had good snake knowledge and I was getting a healthy snake. The only thing that they didn't do very well was feed him or provide him with humidity. They did not have much snake knowledge because when we asked them common questions, they didn't know the answers to them. Well, since he was our first snake and we had a lot to learn about appropriate feeding for size and age, etc, we found out later on and since then more so, he is EXTREMELY small for his age and length. He is about 3.5 feet long, one inch around, and weighs only 566 grams. When we purchased him, he was 500 grams. The people who owned him fed him two small mice a month the entire time they owned him for 6.5 years (they bought him from a petstore in Calgary as a baby). We continued what they did for about a month while I was doing all of my "reading" and "learning". I figured out very quickly and was told by many snake people that this snake was basically just being "kept alive" nutrition wise and environmentally wise. Well, I immediately upped his diet to three mice every week to ten days. He ate them and wanted more. The first time I gave him a live mouse, he knew exactly what to do, and ate three in total and was looking for more (He was raised on frozen and I still give him frozen as well). His skinny little body was just packed full of mice. I knew that he could regurge if I gave him more. Well, since then (about 7 months now), he's been eating and eating like a pig his three mice a week (I am not power feeding as I've read that it is not safe). Sometimes I'll give him a fourth one if I have some frozen pinkies left over. He's been feeding like this for six months now, and has only gained 66 grams!!! I am concerned that maybe he has internal parasites or because of the many years of being practically starved, it's too late for him and his growth is stunted. . His counterpart female named Martha, we purchased on Sept 22 of this year, weighs in at 2566g, nine inch girth, 53 inches long. we believe she is a wild caught, etc.....Well, I want to breed her with him, but I think it would kill him because he is just so small he would exhaust himself to death. He is very interested in her and since I've put them in together twice now for an hour each time, he's been refusing to eat. He has been very restless in his cage, crawling the walls, trying to get out. while he was in with the female, he was all over her and crawled in her cave with her and stayed there. he wanted to stay with her. I think he would mate with her if I left him long enough, but I know nothing about breeding and I do not want to hurt him. Here are some pics of the male. As well the female. I am sure some of you are familiar with Monty and Martha. I've posted other threads about them as well. Here are some pics of my snakes.


This one was taken the day we bought Monty the male
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/The_day_we_brought_her_home.jpg

This one is most recent in October....not much difference in size after such an increase in diet for so many months.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/pencil_thin.jpg

Here is the large female taken in October. She's gained 180g since Sept. 22. on her 4 adult mice a week to ten days diet.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/fat_girl.JPG

Here is a picture of them together. Big size difference for being close in age.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/who_s_bigger.JPG

[6y0ballpython]

two of my pictures didn't upload....i'll try and get them to

[6y0ballpython]

Here is the male now....not much difference from the first picture of him on the log

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/pencil_thin.JPG


Here is a picture of them together taken not too long ago when we purchased the female back in Sept.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/Who_s_bigger.JPG

[Cat_72]

Males often don't get as big as females do anyway, but the only way to know for sure what's going on is to get a fecal done...eating like that and not gaining hardly any weight, I would almost bet he has internal parasites. Once you get those cleaned up, he very well may fatten up quite a bit more, when the nutrition is going to him and not to the parasites.

[Mooing Tricycle]

cat is right, Females tend to get very large, and it looks like you have a darn nice female on your hands there. Shes massive! Ball pythons can be anywhere from 3-6 feet up to 7, If hes anywhere in that range, hes probably just as big as hell get mostly. Two mice a week isnt BAD and is probably more than other neglected snakes could ever dream of, but its true that while he was in his first few years of growth he should have been getting the best diet to help him grow larger, Its too bad, but hes in good hands now.

Get him on a good diet, and im sure youll see an improvement! I agree with Cat on getting a fecal done too... you never know, and its always good when you aquire a new snake to give them a 100% Thumbs up by a vet!

[LadyOhh]

Just keep trying to feed... Patience is everything...

[6y0ballpython]

thanks for the words of encouragement. I did have him to a vet 3 weeks after we acquired him back in April of this year because he came down with pneumonia (mouth breathing, popping sounds, etc.). I think we rescued this little guy from certain death. They were starving him.....two mice a month!! Come one now~!! That's why I cannot understand why he hasn't gained hardly anything when our female has gained almost 200g and I know she's full grown and older than him. He poops regularily with his sheds, so next shed should be coming soon.Last one was Oct 13. I"m hoping to get a fecal sample from him by Christmas or shortly after. I know that they have to be fresh, and so I'll phone my vet here on Monday and ask him if I can just run it in when it happens instead of having to wait for an appointment and risk ruining the sample. Monty is just so skinny!! He's strong and VERY active. He will not sit still in your hands or around your neck for longer than a minute. He is constantly trying to get out of his cage and has succeeded twice now. I should have named him Houdini!! Mind you, he spends most of the day time hours in his cave, it's the nighttime that he really shines. I wish I could play with him all night and let him out for longer. He comes out everyday at 9pm just after our little guy goes to bed and I put him back at 10pm. That never seems long enough and he crawls the walls for an hour after that until he gives up and goes in his cave. I feel so guilty because I know that he wants to roam so badly,and he wants that female. Ever since we introduced them about two weeks ago, his behavior has changed very noticeably. He won't eat, and he's a very good eater. He went off feed two weeks ago and he'll eat every five days if I let him, and if I handle the female who likes to just sit around my neck for hours on end and sleep prior to handling him, he'll spend most of his time "licking" my neck and rubbing his nose vents on my neck and hair. I know he wants her. What to do.........hmmmm.....just let him try to mate with her? Should I just get him treated for internal parasites instead of waiting for the poop sample? I've heard the treatment for internal parasites can be very hard on the animal and that's why they like to get a positive test first....Thanks anyways guys!! You are muchly appreciated and I do take all of your words and advice into consideration when caring for my babies!!!

[Schlyne]

If you are concerned about him having parasites, I would STOP breeding him at this time. If he does end up having parasites, you will need to take your female in for a parasite check as well.

Frankly, if you're concerned about him being so skinny, I wouldn't be trying to breed him at all.

[Sadie]

Don't try to breed until you have done some research and know what you're doing. If your male is sick, he can infect the female. Do you have a plan for selling or keeping the potential offspring?

[frankykeno]

Just a thought here but this male has been a long time neglected snake, has been ill and underfed and is now refusing to eat. Personally I wouldn't think he's a good candidate for a breeding right now. Just my opinion here but I really feel that only animals (whether they be snake, dogs, horses, whatever or feeder rodents) in top condition should be put through the stress of breeding and reproduction.

[6y0ballpython]

Just a thought here but this male has been a long time neglected snake, has been ill and underfed and is now refusing to eat. Personally I wouldn't think he's a good candidate for a breeding right now. Just my opinion here but I really feel that only animals (whether they be snake, dogs, horses, whatever or feeder rodents) in top condition should be put through the stress of breeding and reproduction.
I agree with you. We are going to the vet tomorrow and I have a fecal sample from both snakes that is recent and has been kept in the fridge. they have to send the samples out to another town so I wont have answers for a little while here. I think I will wait until i get him bigger and fatter before I breed them. He is willing though because he's producing plugs like crazy and is refusing to eat.

[6y0ballpython]

Well, we went to the vet yesterday, had the fecal tests done for parasites (they don't have to send them out I guess) and everything is negative. The vet is not worried that he is underweight, just that he cannot afford to lost another gram. And now that he won't eat.....well, he thinks its because I introduced him to my female, and the sperm plugs would back that up as well. He told me to bring him back if he loses more than 50g of true body mass. Monty is in a shed right now, so I am hoping that after he sheds, he might be hungry. The vet told me it would be ok to put him in with the female if he eats after his shed. I will keep you all informed.....

Cherylee

[Cat_72]

Cherylee......IF by chance he eats after his shed, putting him back in with your female may throw him right back off food. If he obviously cannot afford to lose more weight, why on earth would you take the chance? Breeding is stressful on the males, and they WILL lose weight.

Is breeding her now, this year, THAT important?

[6y0ballpython]

Cherylee......IF by chance he eats after his shed, putting him back in with your female may throw him right back off food. If he obviously cannot afford to lose more weight, why on earth would you take the chance? Breeding is stressful on the males, and they WILL lose weight.

Is breeding her now, this year, THAT important?
No, it's not life or death that I breed them, just chalk it up to jumping the gun. I keep going back and forth between, should I chance it?....Is he going to stay this weight and I'd have wasted a year?.....I don't know,...... I've been feeding him triple the amount for the past 8 months than he was getting with his previous, neglectful, two mice a month, diet. And he hasn't gained anything in those 8 months of increased diet. He has no parasites, he doesn't have big poops to lose that much weight, his poops are only undigested hair, no bones or other mouse parts undigested, so he is using all of what he eats. He has grown in length (3.5"), but not in girth. He was 12cm around when I got him in April, and hes still 12cm around now in Dec. He's been eating really good all these months without gaining........now since introducing him to the female, he's stopped eating all together. How is it possible that by trippling his diet for 8 months and he hasn't gained a gram and he hasn't any parasites? The only explanation is that he is just meant to be a small snake or he's been stunted into believing that he's supposed to stay at that weight. I agree, I think I am going to wait a year and see what happens. What if I put them together just for a few days the one time to see if they'd even acheive a lock? Would that totally screw things up?

[Mooing Tricycle]

i suggest you hold off this year. Risking your males health should never be something you consider doing, or going back and forth on. It should only be a sure shot thing, and if you cant. you cant. dont rush them. theres always next year...

[Cat_72]

Is he going to stay this weight and I'd have wasted a year?.....

I don't call ensuring the health of any animal a waste of anything. I just don't understand why you seem to be in such a rush to breed...you have owned a snake for 8 months, and you lived just fine with out one at all before then....now you have 2.....why not just enjoy them for awhile instead of taking a chance with your male?

Have you thought about what you will do with the babies? A girl her size could easily produce 6-7 eggs, which means 6-7 separate enclosures with proper heat, hides, and humidity, 6-7 babies to get started eating, 6-7 babies to feed until well established and are ready to sell, and then what if you can't sell them? Do you have buyers lined up? Are you prepared to keep them for perhaps several months?

I know that they joy of seeing that first little nose pip out of that egg is a wonderful thing....one I wish all herp lovers get the chance to experience at least once.....but you're much better waiting until you know that both of your animals you already have are in prime health, and you are properly set up and prepared. It appears none of us here have any definite answers as to what the future holds for your boy, though I think we all agree that it's better to be safe than sorry. ;)

[6y0ballpython]

I am grateful for all of your very honest answers and I am going to wait until next year I have decided. It will be cheaper for me in the long run because I was just going to buy everything pre made to set up for the babies. I do have enough reliable people (6 so far) lined up to buy them. Mostly family. I would never sell or give one of my snakes to just someone who "wants to own a snake". I am a responsible reptile owner and feel that I care about my snake's welfare enough to do what is right. Obviously I take them to vets and bug the hell out of you guys asking many many questions.....ha ha....thanks again and Il'll keep you posted of how he does after his shed this next week when I offer him a nice juicy mouse. Hopefully he'll take the bait!! thanks again.

[Mooing Tricycle]

Glad to hear!