Are We In Trouble.?......

[6y0ballpython]

Ok, here's the deal.....you are all great people, and if you could give me some advice on what to do next here, I would really appreciate it.....again.....! As some of you may know, a month ago (Nov 20), I introduced Monty (male) to my huge female. Only for about an hour at a time and only 4 times. We let them crawl on each other while my husband and I watched them on the couch. They were only in the tank once together and never ever locked tails. They were both eating just fine before this. Since then, my little boy will not eat. I've had him to the vet and had a couple of posts on since because I've been worried about him having parasites, etc. well, he doesn't have parasites, internal or external. I have his cage temps and humids all correct. He has plenty of places to hide and feel safe, etc. etc. etc. Then, on Nov.29th he pooped and a sperm plug took a ride out on the poo. That's the very first one I seen and since then I haven't seen anymore come out of him and can't pop any out. He shed on the 17th of Dec, and needed help with it even though he had plenty of humidity., That stressed him out because I had to help him by bathing him in luke warm water. The skin was glued on and all the time in world wouldn't have let him get it off of himself, so It was now or never. He is a very underweight snake for his age as it is.
when I purchased him back in april-06 he weighed 500g and was 3.5 ft long, and 6 years old and half starved. Once I got him, He ate 3 large adult mice every week to ten days up until his last meal on Nov 20th. He didn't gain anything during those 8 months. WHAT UP WITH THAT????? He was only being fed two mice per MONTH before I got him. I triple his diet and he doesn't gain an ounce? That's why we suspected internal parasites. But none. He poops, he pees, he eats fine, until I introduce him to the female to make sure that they would try and eat each other. Now he's lost weight down from 504g two weeks ago, to 484g today (Dec. 20). He did have a shed and a big pee in the tub with about 4 big urate chunks which could account for the weight loss. I've spent about an hour to two hours each night for the past week dangling mice over this guys head (live and dead) and no luck. Two nights ago he struck 4 times at the live mouse I was dangling over him, but they were half assed strikes, and more like "leave me the hell alone bites " than anything. If he wanted that mouse, he had plenty of opportunity to eat it. So I tried to gently force feed him last night, and I got the freshly killed mouse half way down his throat, he was breathing fine, and each time I let him go to see if he'd finish it, he just regurged it. I only tried a few times before the mouse's nose started to bleed and it was getting pretty messy. The vet told me on Dec 13th when I had him in to check for internal parasites, that if he lost more than 50g without eating, that I should bring him back and we would have to "tube" him with some liquid food to get his digestive system going again. He thinks maybe its a combination of being put in with the female and wanting to mate (evident by the sperm plugs) and also it's the winter season, and the stress of me not leaving him alone. I phoned the previous owner, and she told me that they never had a problem with him eating. He ate every two weeks for 6 years straight (one small mouse). well, of course, he was in a dark basement room, no UTH, no humidity but a water bowl and no sunlight. He was half starved and was in the peak of his growing because they purchased him as a baby. of course he's gonna eat. Now he's almost 7 years old, and he's the size of a baby snake, but 3.75 ft long. Very skinny and long. Here's some pics I'll insert for you to see taken this morning., He looks like he weighs more than 484g doesn't he? but three scales can't be wrong....

TAKEN TODAY....

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/Half_the_size_of_a_dollar_bill.JPG

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//500/medium/skinny_neck.JPG


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//2/medium/skinny_tail.JPG

[Gary O]

Well Do not take this wrong.

You should have never attempted breeding with under wieght snakes.

Ball Python males do go off feed during this time of year. It is what they do it is natural. I ahve a few that are doing the same thing. People think that Ball pythons ar ebad feeders but that is far from the truth. Ifyou research their history you will see that this is a normal thing them going off feed.

Your snake is thin. This can be seen. Remove him to a quite spot. Do not bother him unless it is to ettept to feed or clean. Try to offer food every three days. Try the paper bag trick with a f/t animal

your little guy has been through a lot the last few weeks now.

and remember Force feeding is the last thing you should do.

[garweft]

I would have to agree with your vet. Winter breeding season, playing with a female, and constant harassment.

I love McDonald's, but if a big giant was constantly harassing me with a Bag O' Big Mac's I think I would lose my appetite too.

I would keep him in a dark, quiet cage with proper heat in a room as far from the female as possible. Leave him alone, ie. no handling except for cage cleaning. And offer food once every few days. If feeding live then only offer it for a minute at most. If F/T then show it on the tongs for a few seconds, if he doesn't look interested then you can put it in with him for an hour or two. But then leave the room, don't keep watching to see if he eats.

[SoulSmilen]

I am going to disagree with the vet saying tube feeding is necessary at this point. He is a little on the thin side, but he's not dangerously thin yet, IMO. His reluctance to feed is basically due to stress from trying to get him to eat, and possibly from the desire to breed now. His recent shed is a sign he's growing, if not in weight, at least in length. If he's growing, he's not as bad off as the vet is making it sound.

As for trying to get him to feed, I would stick with one kind of rat. If he was eating f/t before, there is no reason to try live and fresh killed. Stick with the f/t and warm it up with a heating pad or lamp so you're tempting the natural feeding response with the heat. I would also cut back on the trying to once a week at the most, but you'll get different opinions on that, as you see already. One thing that works with one of my balls is to warm up the rat, and while she's in a feeding tub, I let the rat drop with a plopping sound a few inches in front of the snake. She almost always grabs it at that point, even when she shows no interest in it beforehand.

I realize you feel like he's on a downhill run right now, but he is going to be more stressed with trying to feed him more often, and that will work against the end goal. I would even say leave him alone totally for at least another week before you even begin to try to feed again.

Good luck with him and do keep us posted.

[6y0ballpython]

Well, I guess I was really trying to see if they were compatible first, not trying to breed really. parents are always eager to let their new baby see the older sibling right? I think that's what we've been doing. And it got a little too advanced and put him into breed mode. I'll take your advice and leave him alone for a week and then try with a f/t. He takes both live and f/t the same over the past eight months. he really takes to the fresh live ones better and faster, but they are expensive and if he doesn't take it, then I have to drown it and freeze it anyways. Thanks, and I will keep you posted.

[Cat_72]

I agree with what's already been said....leave him alone for a good week, then go back to trying to feed what he's used to eating, but only attempt to feed every few days. He's obviously skinny, but it's only been a month since his last meal, I can't see force feeding as necessary at this point, and the stress of that alone isn't going to do him any favors, IMO.

And I love this line....

I love McDonald's, but if a big giant was constantly harassing me with a Bag O' Big Mac's I think I would lose my appetite too.

Good luck.

[Cat_72]

As for drowning (*shudder*) and freezing the live mouse if he doesn't take it.....it's not that tough to set up a little cage and keep it and feed it for a week or so, until the next feeding. If he prefers live, your best chance to get him to eat is with that.

[LadyOhh]

:iagree:

Just leave him be, let him chill out, and keep trying... Don't force anything unless he is getting super lethargic and even skinnier than now...

[6y0ballpython]

thanks guys and gals.....and all herp junkies out there. Its hard to believe how much we really do rely on each other for help. We have moved him into a quiet dark place with a little sunlight each day, but away from our 7 year old's play areas. I picked him up yesterday to clean up what the mouse had pooped and peed, and he was very active, wanted to get out of my hands as quick as possible, etc. He moves like lightening on the floor, I had a hard time snapping those pics of him. As for the mice and keeping them alive, I do have a mouse cage and I did keep these ones alive for about a week, but they stink to high heaven no matter how much you clean their cages, and its winter here so I can't keep them outside or in a shed with heat lamps. Minus 30 deg. celsius is just too cold. I could probably just keep the one in there at a time instead of two or more. It wouldn't be that bad then. I have one alive in there right now awaiting it's fate. They sure love ritz crackers. ANYBODY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY MY BP HASN'T GAINED ANYTHING IN THE 8 MONTHS I'VE HAD HIM ON A TRIPLED DIET? IT BAFFLES ME. IS IT POSSIBLE HES STUNTED FROM BEING STARVED FOR 6 YEARS MAYBE? IS HE JUST MEANT TO BE A SMALL SNAKE? I HAVE JUST NOT COME UP WITH A GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO NOT GAIN ANYTHING ON TWELVE MICE A MONTH UP FROM TWO PER MONTH. HE SHOULD HAVE DOUBLED HIS WEIGHT BY NOW EASILY.

[garweft]

ANYBODY HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON WHY MY BP HASN'T GAINED ANYTHING IN THE 8 MONTHS I'VE HAD HIM ON A TRIPLED DIET? IT BAFFLES ME. IS IT POSSIBLE HES STUNTED FROM BEING STARVED FOR 6 YEARS MAYBE? IS HE JUST MEANT TO BE A SMALL SNAKE? I HAVE JUST NOT COME UP WITH A GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO NOT GAIN ANYTHING ON TWELVE MICE A MONTH UP FROM TWO PER MONTH. HE SHOULD HAVE DOUBLED HIS WEIGHT BY NOW EASILY.

That does kinda baffle me. What internal parasite tests were preformed? I remember ones were done, but it is possible that they missed something. the 3 BP's I got in June that weighed 194, 202, and 250 are 550, 760, and 726 as of November 12, and their even bigger now. I know the middle one is in the 900 range now, but it's not on my computer yet so I don't know exactly.

Yours is older, and probably wouldn't grow as fast. But I would have thought that you should have seen some increase in weight. :shrug01:

[Cat_72]

Cherylee, if you can get female mice, they stink less than the males do. If you add a bit of vanilla to their drinking water, it really helps as well.

[6y0ballpython]

Well, he weighs less than when I bought him now. He looks on the thin side, but his skin isn't hanging on him or anything. I decided today to offer him a mouse ONE LAST TIME before I leave him alone for a while......he immediately showed interest and followed it with his head and tongue going in and out smelling it. He struck at it very lightly and let it go three times. and right before he goes to strike, his head vibrates like he's shivering, and then he strikes or if the the mouse walks up to him, he pulls back. It's like he wants it and is mustering up the courage to strike it, or he's mad as hell at it and it biting it to tell it to piss off. The only other time I"ve seen him vibrate his head like that was when I accidentally shined the flashlight into his face one night. He went into coiled strike mode and started to vibrate his head and neck area like he was really going to strike at me. At that time i would assume that he was mad at me for bothering him wth the light. This would be the same with the mouse maybe. He might be upset with it for bothering him. I am not going to introduce a mouse to him again for another week. The female is refusing to eat as well. I am not worried about her though. She's fat and healthy. The vet told me that the next step of tests that he could do for internal parasites would be to send a stool sample out to test for a bacterial infection. This is beyond his capabilities as it is at the microbial level and needs special equipment. I guess that would be the next step apart from blood tests or tube feeding if he's near death.....which he's not yet. I just changed their substrate from plain old newspaper to aspen shavings. They were both really hesitant to go on it, but now are ok.,

[cris78]

Please dont drown or freze a live mouse..its cruel..just put it in a bag and whack it on a table..try this instead of feeding live..if hes weak F/T might be easier on him,..Just leave him alone..dont bother him..shinning a flashlight on him is causing him much..make him a nice dark, warm hide and leave him alone for a week.

[6y0ballpython]

Not to be obtuse, but......how do you think they kill all of those nicely packaged frozen rats and mice that are all clean and dry and nice looking? They put them in freezers while they are still alive and allow them to freeze to death. They don't euthenize them or whack them on the head. I did that once because I thought that drowning was cruel as well, but hitting them on the head just made them bleed from their nose all over my snake and his cage. Plus, they squirm and and hit is never enough, unless I'm just not doing it right. I'll stick with drowning for now. It takes about 20 seconds and it's only a mouse. Do you not think that they don't suffer when they have the life squeezed out of them by our snakes??? They bite and fight for their lives as they are slowly suffocated,,,,,it's a matter of opinion that I think doesn't really need to end up in a heated mess of mouse ethics....LOL.,

[cris78]

Not to be obtuse, but......how do you think they kill all of those nicely packaged frozen rats and mice that are all clean and dry and nice looking? They put them in freezers while they are still alive and allow them to freeze to death. They don't euthenize them or whack them on the head. I did that once because I thought that drowning was cruel as well, but hitting them on the head just made them bleed from their nose all over my snake and his cage. Plus, they squirm and and hit is never enough, unless I'm just not doing it right. I'll stick with drowning for now. It takes about 20 seconds and it's only a mouse. Do you not think that they don't suffer when they have the life squeezed out of them by our snakes??? They bite and fight for their lives as they are slowly suffocated,,,,,it's a matter of opinion that I think doesn't really need to end up in a heated mess of mouse ethics....LOL.,
im sorry you are mistaken..they are gased...ask anyone.its very humane..what you are doin is not!

[LadyOhh]

They are humanely put down with a CO2 chamber, then immediately frozen.

I have one myself.. Very easy to make.

[jglass38]

Not to be obtuse, but......how do you think they kill all of those nicely packaged frozen rats and mice that are all clean and dry and nice looking? They put them in freezers while they are still alive and allow them to freeze to death. They don't euthenize them or whack them on the head. I did that once because I thought that drowning was cruel as well, but hitting them on the head just made them bleed from their nose all over my snake and his cage. Plus, they squirm and and hit is never enough, unless I'm just not doing it right. I'll stick with drowning for now. It takes about 20 seconds and it's only a mouse. Do you not think that they don't suffer when they have the life squeezed out of them by our snakes??? They bite and fight for their lives as they are slowly suffocated,,,,,it's a matter of opinion that I think doesn't really need to end up in a heated mess of mouse ethics....LOL.,

You couldn't be more wrong, cruel or inhumane. Just because we have to feed our snakes rodents doesn't mean the rodents don't deserve to be treated with as much humanity and dignity as possible while they are alive. Drowning a rodent is a disgusting thing to do and says a lot about you as a person (none good). The frozen rodents that are sold at stores and over the Internet are humanely killed by CO2. They are not frozen, drowned or whacked. The only other recognized humane form of euthanasia for a rodent is cervical dislocation which can be tricky and inhumane if done improperly.

[cris78]

You couldn't be more wrong, cruel or inhumane. Just because we have to feed our snakes rodents doesn't mean the rodents don't deserve to be treated with as much humanity and dignity as possible while they are alive. Drowning a rodent is a disgusting thing to do and says a lot about you as a person (none good). The frozen rodents that are sold at stores and over the Internet are humanely killed by CO2. They are not frozen, drowned or whacked. The only other recognized humane form of euthanasia for a rodent is cervical dislocation which can be tricky and inhumane if done improperly.


:iagree: to ASSume that i was wrong shows how little u know..this is not addressed to jglass38 but to the person who started this..what u are doin to to those mice is cruel :NoNo: :NoNo: :NoNo: :NoNo:

[darkbloodwyvern]

I don't have a CO2 chamber, I have a credit card-some of the most handy pieces of plastic you can have on your person. Whacking is bad, too much blood and pain. Take your mousie and put him on a table you can clean easily, and psuh down on his neck with a credit card, grab his tail close to the body, and push down witth your card and pull up on his tail. DO NOT grab him by the tail tip, it will break and he will bleed and crap all over. If done right, this method will cleanly snap his neck with a cervical dislocation, and if you do it right, he will twitch and die in a few seconds, not twenty. It is very humane and easy. He should not bleed or deficate or pee and all you need is a surface and a cheap old credit card that you can get from all those junk mail offers. just be sure to scratch your name or any identifying info off the card, just so you don't confuse it with any of your others.

BUT if your snake prefers live, feed him live. Any animal that dies fairly easily will be clean and neat if you package it soon after death, it will probably not relax the sphinter muscles, I have seen the results of animals frozen to death in a freezer and they do not look peaceful and neat, they look like hell and are covered in feces and if you were a FT seller, you would have to take the time to clean them up to make them so nice looking, wheras a neck snapping or gassing doesn't give them the time to muss up and get dirty if it is done right.

I do agree that snakes are pretty inhumane to their prey, but snakes can't get arrested for animal cruelty, and with any luck we snake owners can avoid the dumbass PETA types from wanting to eat our flesh for 'torturing' feeders. I'm not trying to debate, but there are places in the UK that are trying to pass laws against live feeders. While i doubt the same would happen in the states, I prefer to not give any crazy or simply ignorant people any more reasons to dislike snakes as pets etc.... My snake can kill a mouse in about ten seconds, i want to make it faster than that, it's not worth my time to wait for the mouse to drown.
sorry for the long post, but i think being humane is only one aspect of the feeder rodent debate.

Not to be obtuse, but......how do you think they kill all of those nicely packaged frozen rats and mice that are all clean and dry and nice looking? They put them in freezers while they are still alive and allow them to freeze to death. They don't euthenize them or whack them on the head. I did that once because I thought that drowning was cruel as well, but hitting them on the head just made them bleed from their nose all over my snake and his cage. Plus, they squirm and and hit is never enough, unless I'm just not doing it right. I'll stick with drowning for now. It takes about 20 seconds and it's only a mouse. Do you not think that they don't suffer when they have the life squeezed out of them by our snakes??? They bite and fight for their lives as they are slowly suffocated,,,,,it's a matter of opinion that I think doesn't really need to end up in a heated mess of mouse ethics....LOL.,