How much weight loss is too much???

[6y0ballpython]

My male ball has been refusing to eat since Nov 2 when he ate three live mice. He's had one med sized bowel movement (that had a sperm plug with it) that's been tested negative for parasites, and he's had one big liquid/solid pee. For two days, I had him in with our much larger female, without any attempts to mate with her. He only hides and refuses to eat. For about two weeks now I have had him back in his own cage (which is across a large living room from the female) and have been handling him a little as possible to try and reduce his stress. He has lost another 10g this past week. He still refuses to eat. I offer him a mouse every 7-10 days and only for about 30sec to a minute and then I give up. In the past when he was eating, he would take his food immediately if it was gonna happen. He is losing weight. I do not see him drinking. He is extremely guant looking. His skin around his neck and now lower down towards the middle of his body is starting to wrinkle as if he's losing weight. He started at 566g/3.5ft long. He is now 474g/3.5ft long. This is over the course of almost three months that he's lost this much weight. His mouth is nice and healthy looking.....so no mouth rot. The 566g weight was with three mice in him,and he's had a poop since then and one pee. So I would say he's probably lost about 30g of actual fat/muscle. He is active in his tank at night. Trying to get out of the tank, nosing the glass, basking a bit. I did take him out the other night because he had a big peice of duct tape wrapped around his tail from the wires being taped to the walls. He uses them as climbing tools. After I removed the tape, he wanted to crawl and crawl. he didn't want back in his cage at all, he kept avoiding going in. I kept him out about half an hour and let him roam the stairs a bit. He really enjoys this. He will not sit still in my hands. He never has been that kind of snake. He won't sit still anywhere. He is so fast and has to keep moving. During the day in his tank, he makes quick moves back and forth from one end cave to the other cave. My temps are good and my humidity is 66%. I wonder if he can smell the female? I know this is the famous time of year of bp's to stop eating,and they are notorious for it, but how much weight loss is too much before he's gonna die from starvation? My brother just had a wild caught garter snake that we found on our farm outside town last summer that died. The snake stopped eating when the weather turned cold in the fall and was trying to go into hibernation. They took him to the vet and force fed him with a tube and then they were force feeding him at home with gold fish. He was eating and all, but had lost a terrible amount of weight. You could see his back bone and his skin was hanging on him. He also had a big sore on his mouth where they think the cat clawed at him. He still ate ok with it. But yesterday, they found him dead. Snakes don't just die overnight, I know that. They die over time, so I really want to make sure that I am doing everything I can to make sure that my male bp is safe and I need to just let him be. Should I keep offering him food? my female who was on a bit of a hunger strike, ate 6 adult mice the other night. Now that she's eaten,I feel better, but the one snake that needs to eat the most, wont. He acts scared of the mouse wether it's dead or alive. He even strikes at it with dry warning strikes, not preying strikes. He is just miserable. Should I try leaving him an offering of a mouse head or something small like that to see if he'll eat it when I'm not there? I hate wasting a whole mouse each time. I read that one guy had a snake on here that didnt' eat for a year. I don't think My guy has a year left in him of body mass to live off of. He just keeps getting thinner and grumpier. I've had him vet checked, and I popped a bunch of sperm plugs out of him as well. I think that girl has him confused...........ANY SUGGESTIONS PEOPLE?????

[LadyOhh]

Cherylee,

This is meant with the utmost respect, but can you please use paragraphs? I can barely read your question!

[The BoidSmith]

Just a few tips. Quit handling him at all. Take him to a different room, because yes, he can smell the female. Increase the number of hide spots in the enclosure (include at least one with the opening in the top). Do not offer food every week. When you do, reduce the size of the prey (use hoppers). Mist a little bit the enclosure every other day (the "rainy season" in Africa signals increase availability of food). Double check the temperatures!

Good luck!

[6y0ballpython]

Cherylee,

This is meant with the utmost respect, but can you please use paragraphs? I can barely read your question!
No problem Heather, I guess I just get carried away and I write in blocks instead of paragraphs. I will try harder nest time.....no worries.

[Schlyne]

My brother just had a wild caught garter snake that we found on our farm outside town last summer that died. The snake stopped eating when the weather turned cold in the fall and was trying to go into hibernation. They took him to the vet and force fed him with a tube and then they were force feeding him at home with gold fish. He was eating and all, but had lost a terrible amount of weight. You could see his back bone and his skin was hanging on him. He also had a big sore on his mouth where they think the cat clawed at him. He still ate ok with it.

As far as the garter snake goes, feeder goldfish are horrible feeders. They are fatty, many of them are diseased and some are often injected with dye to make them look better. It also sounds like he was completely stressed out from the force feeding and possibly the cat. That sore may also have contributed to the death of the garter snake.

[Schlyne]

I've tried looking through your old posts, but I can't find the info. What are the temperatures you're keeping him at?

How often are you offering him food? If he's getting scared each time, he may associating feeding with getting scared and become even more reluctant to feed. (I'm not trying to anthropomorphize, I'm talking about more of a Palvov type response).

[6y0ballpython]

So we've decided to move our male bp to another room completely across the house. He won't eat and when I offer him a mouse (f/t) once per week at night time, he balls up and tries to hide his head within his coil. He acts scared. I try only for about a minute, and in this time, he does come out of his coil and smell the mouse, but as soon as I wiggle it a bit, he immediately pulls back and hides his head again. He's scared to eat. A while ago when I tried with a live mouse, all he did was make warning strikes at it with his mouth and bite it to tell it to piss off and leave him alone. They were not attack to eat strikes or he would have gotten it on the first try. He is absolutely petrified to eat. I do not try any longer than two minutes to feed him, and I do not put it right up to his head. I give him room. He still has sperm plugs coming out of him, and so I know he smells that girl. I'll include some photos of our current setup. I am moving his tank tonight to our bedroom upstairs. It's much quieter up there and dark because I am a night shift worker and have a dark room to sleep in during the day. Hopefully he'll come around soon. My female has eaten since she started her fast right after him. She now hasn't eaten in two weeks. When I first got these snakes, they were both great eaters. Every week he would pack away three mice, and she would pack away 5. Since winter started, they've quit. I may try to simulate a wet season for them and see if it triggers a seasonal change in their inner clocks. Maybe he'll eat then. He's losing weight too fast and is looking guant and wrinkly. I'm worried about him.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//2/covered_cage.JPG


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//2/cage_setup.JPG


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/photopost/data//2/temps_and_bandanas.JPG

[The BoidSmith]

What's with the bandana ties?

Regards.

[Cat_72]

Have you tried offering f/t and just leaving it in there overnight? You say he's scared when you wiggle they prey at him....maybe he'd be tempted by something that doesn't "wiggle"?

What is your humidity, and is he drinking? Have you tried misting the cage instead of using those bandana things? Have you double checked the temps with another thermometer to be sure this one is accurate? Often "gaunt and wrinkly" to me says dehydration.

[6y0ballpython]

Well, the bandanas are filled with all safe all natural hydrobeads that soak up enormous amounts of water when put in the tub and allowed to soak for about half an hour. They slowly hydrate that air and keep it at a constant humidity in the snakes cage. My friend makes them and I found that this works great for keeping the snake cages at a nice 50-65% humidity for about 3 days at a time. I rejuvinate them every 3 days in the tub. The snakes actually like them to lay on during a shed time. They are just really colorful.

I am pretty sure that he is drinking because he is peeing liquid (I haven't found any chunks from him), but his aspen has had some wet, urine smelling spots in his hide that I've scooped out. So I am pretty sure he's drinking. I fill his water bowl every two days and even though it doesn evaporate some, I think he's taking the odd drink because it's about half gone each time. He absolutely hates the bathtub or any kind of sitting in the "wet" at all. He likes to feel dry.

Maybe moving him into our bedroom upstairs will help. It's dark in there most of the time anyways and it's across the house and up a level from my female. I would rather move my female because we handle her more and having her in my room, she'd get more attention (which she doesn't seem to mind), but I think the male needs the dark and quietness of our room where we can just leave him be. I do check on him every day to make sure he's still alive and not sitting in poo or pee, but apart from that, he just stays under his warm hide which is about 95 deg. He may be becoming dehydrated by staying in the hot cave. Once every few days he does move to the cool end which is about 83-85 deg. When I have to handle him to clean his cage, he has lots of strength, and lots of stamina to crawl from me. He doesn't ball up when I hold him, he just stretches out and tries to crawl away.

At night he is active trying to crawl out of the cage by scaling the glass. He does this for about two hours before he gives up and goes back to his hide. My gut feeling is that he is uphappy, but I just don't know what else to do for the little guy to make him more content. I feel that the more I touch him and fiddle with his cage, the more stressed he gets, but the longer I leave him alone, the more worried I get that I am wasting time not doing something vital that could very well save his life in the end.

We used to handle him daily or every second day at the least for about 15 mins at a time before he went on his fast a few months ago. Then we stopped handling him all together because we thought he was stressed, so less handling may help bring him appetite back. Maybe we've caused more damage by not handling him like we used to. Every night my heart pains to take him out when he scales the walls trying to escape. Maybe he just needs to crawl through the blankets on my bed where I can keep an eye on him, but not have to touch him that much. That may give him some of that freedom that he's looking for at night. This may calm him down and make him not so skittish. He was not like this when we bought him.

I will try leaving him a f/t mouse overnight to see what he does. My female will take 'gifts" like that, but he never has. I'll try my best.