Selective spider breeding

[SPJ]

What do you think about this idea?

I was thinking that the only spiders that should be used for breeding are those that show NO signs of neurological problems (wobble).
What got me thinking was the poor spider that Corey Woods posted a pic of on KS. The thing lays in the tub looking dead with it's head all contorted. He was going to breed this snake but thankfully (IMO) it shows no interest in that.I have also heard of bees and normal spider sibs showing the problems.

Do any of you feel that the spiders with wobbles should not be bred? I think starting with an animal that has never shown the problem from hatchling to adult would be the only animal you should breed. Any that do show the problem should be "pet" animals only.

This trait shows up way too often in the spider gene and I do not think it is "cute". When I looked for a spider, one of my criteria was NO WOBBLE since I planned on using it as a breeder.

I realize it would be difficult to get all people to stop breeding the wobblers but I feel it is ethically wrong to breed an animal exhibiting a neurological problem.

[Cat_72]

I couldn't agree more, Steve.

[Wolfy-hound]

I've got a wobble spider female. Bought her as 100% healthy and got a wobble-headed snake. Still no resolution fromt he seller even as he thinks the snake is fine. "Oh yeah, I'd breed her" was the actual comment.
I won't be breeding her. The ONLY way I WOULD breed her, is if I could find a second male spider wobbler to use as scientific subjects for a university study. There is a PhD vet that studies neurological issues in reptiles. I've been talking to him. Other than that possibilty, Hepburn isn't about to get bred. She is my $2200 lesson in buying from supposedly reputable breeders.
Theresa

[garweft]

To me it is the same thing as a one eyed albino boa, a kinked caramel albino, or a leopard gecko with a abnormaly short tail. Poor specimens should be culled so that they will never be used for breeding.

However money makes people do funny things. :D

[LadyOhh]

To be devils advocate for a moment, it has been said by many that Spiders that wobble produce non-wobblers, and the other way around as well.

What is your take on that?

I'm rather curious what the basis is for the wobble myself, but since this is just becoming more public knowledge, I'm curious what people think.

[Wolfy-hound]

That is actually one reason why I'd like to see a breeding for study. None of the babies would be sold, but perhaps placed in 'foster' homes with a contracted agreement that they wouldn't be bred, and would be available for examanations regularly. More likely I'd end up with some, with the vet keeping some.. that sort of thing.
Since it shows itself SO often in spiders... I cannot see it NOT being somehow genetic. I've never heard of anyone breeding two wobbles together. A recessive flaw? I don't know, but it would be a thing to check into. I know that people will chime in to say "Oh I had a.. or knew someone who's cousin had a... or saw one for sale... that was a wobble without being a spider." BUT.. most of the wobbles I hear of seem to be spiders. I'd love to somehow contribute to clearing spiders of this undesirable flaw trait.
I love spiders.. and personality wise.. both of mine(wobble headed and the normal male) are GREAT snakes. Wonderfully personable. Everyone at the UF vet hospital ADORED Hepburn for her stay. If she WASN'T a wobbler I'd breed her SO fast!! (as soon as she grows up of course LOL)
I was also told "She'll out-grow it" which she has not. "It could be parasites" which it is not, she has been on anti-parasitic. "It must be stress from shipping" which would have disappeared and it hasn't. She is a 'spinner' or a 'wobbler' and was(most likely) hatched this way, and will die this way.
On this note: I am still looking for a wobble-headed male, but I won't be paying any $2K for it! LOL. Can't afford to pay that much even to help out the study.
Theresa

[Melinda]

Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.

[NorthernRegius.com]

Theresa, I am so sorry to hear of your wobbler. I would love to get a spider someday, but scared of this wobbling/spinning stuff.

I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb

[SPJ]

My take on wobble head spiders that are bred and have some offspring not showing the trait is this.

The genetic flaw that appears to be tied to the spider gene may not be passed down to all of the offspring, however, it has documented that a spider with a wobble may not produce spiders that wobble but can produce normal sibs with the trait as well as bees with it when bred to a pastel. Now even some people have suggested that pinstripes can show the wobble head. There has to be something linked to the pattern mutation (since pinstripes and spiders both have a similiar type of reduced pattern) and neurological problems. I am beginning to wonder if the reason the so-called super form of the pin has not been photographed is because it has severe neurological problems that would cause issues if a picture was released to the public. If you produced the first apparent super of this animal, why be so secretive and not release a picture? Even if it needs additional breedings to confirm, you would think a photo would be posted. I mean come on, any different looking BP is broadcast all of the net.

Some say that spiders outgrow the problem. I really don't buy that argument since it seems that the largest producers of spiders are the ones that keep saying this.

Also some spiders not showing it at birth have developed it as they get older.

That was the reason why I think only spiders that do not show it from birth to adult are the only ones that should be bred.

Something neurological is tied to the spider gene (or the reduced pattern mutation itself). The only ones who seem to advocate ignoring the problem are mass producers of spiders.

Just like one eyed boas, wobble head spiders should not be bred. It is a genetic flaw and not just a "cute" thing that spider morphs do.

[SPJ]

I've a sweet CH boy BP that started the whole love of Pythons for us, he developed a defect at age 2 & will never be bred. Selective breeding is about picking & breeding only the best & healthiest animals. We still don't know enough about the genetics to say for certain what is what.

Back when Kevin (NERD) was looking for the Super Spider (before it was agreed that the trait is likely just simple Dom) there was a lot of line breeding... I picked my Spider because the person I bought from had bred 2 generations and NOT line bred. I don't know if that made a difference, but that's what I did. My '05 girl is not a wobble-head and she's very healthy. I am interested in the true cause of the defect, I hope I don't ever have any offspring with the defect- if I did, they would NOT be bred.

I've waited until now to start a T+ project using unrelated hets due to the "kink" issue. I still believe that this colour trait is very sensitive to line breeding and therefore will be using plenty of hets & different strains... I figure it's a 5 year project, but what the heck. While I know line-breeding is necessary to prove out the genetics on WC or CH; for most folks who work with CB should be able to keep defects way down by out crossing as much as possible. (IMHO) -Deb


Very good point. A LOT of line breeding was done to try and find the super form. Those animals were the source of a lot of peoples breeding stock. Line breeding IMO intensified the genetic "flaw".

[Double "D" Reptiles]

It sounds like the original stock animals need to be examined closely as well as each successive set of offspring to see where the flaw appeared. Only when the breeding records are made available (if they were indeed kept in a scientific manner) will there be any chance of making a well informed hypothesis as to the origin of the problem as well as a planned course of action to eliminate the undesirable trait while retaining the morph in all of it's glory. That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.

I love the spiders and bees, can't afford them at this time and wouldn't purchase a questionable animal with this possible genetic flaw even if I did have the $$. I feel deeply sorry for anyone who laid out this kind of money and got one with people making all kinds of claims but not coughing up a dump truck load of records to assist in scientifically qualifying the possible problem and solutions.

[NorthernRegius.com]

... That is truly one of the greatest flaws to our hobby which dog and cat breeders have done a fairly good job of working out through reputable organizations that keep breeding records and pedigrees (AKC among others.) Breeders, prospective breeders and pet owners can research their pure-bred animals ancestry as reported to the organization. I know it's been tried before with herps and failed miserably but, damn, the least we could do as hobbyists and breeders is to keep records and be more than willing to share them with the rest of the community when something like this arises.


Very good points!

As an animal breeder who has only recently gotten into HERPs I take both dog & rabbit experience into my herps; AKC has it's good & bad, but record keeping is definitely on the plus side.

Also I worked with a co-dom trait in producing Holland lop rabbits this trait is homozygous lethal (which is why I believe the Spider was line-bred to the extent it was; another possible homozygous lethal trait).

Line breeding CAN re-enforce many specific GOOD things in a trait- the downside is it also will magnify ALL flaws. In rabbits where we know MUCH more about the genetics; they will line breed to 3 generations MAX! Yet in snakes, line breeding well beyond that limit happens all the time- YIKES!

Yes, I am tainted with prior mammal experience. It may be overkill, but unless I'm proving out a CH or WC I will try refrain from line breeding- and under no circumstance beyond 3 generations.

[Clay Davenport]

First off, good luck convincing all the people who paid 2 or 3 grand for their wobble headed spider not to breed it. Your convictions, while noble and formed with the best of intentions, simply will not be held by the vast majority of keepers despite the apparent support you have from the contributors in this thread.
If it was possible to seperate the the gene responsible for the spider pattern from the gene responsible for the wobble, it is far too late to do so.
That being said, I'm not sure they can be separated in the first place. It is my understanding that the wobble is not something that popped up at some point in the project and wasn't culled, the original founding male had it.

Perhaps he just happened to be carrying an additional gene which caused the wobble, or perhaps that gene is actually linked to the spider gene itself and is present in all spiders with only the intensity of the effect being the variable.
If it is a separate gene entirely then it is not recessive. It's also not codominant either. It's been demonstrated that non-wobbling parents can produce offspring with the wobble and vice versa. If it were codom or dominant then the parent would have to have the wobble in order to produce offspring with it.
If it were recessive, then a wobbling spider bred to a normal would almost always produce a non-wobbling clutch and the numbers of specimens exhibiting the condition would be far less.

The only factor that supports the idea that the wobble gene is not genetically linked to the spider gene is it has been claimed that a few normal spider siblings have been born with the wobble. I personally am not convinced this is true. I have hatched 100% normal ball pythons from snakes that have no spiders in their history that have exhibited a wobble very similar to that seen in spiders, but they only did it at feeding time, an effect of high alertness. This behavior disappeared in less than a year as muscle control developed.
I think it's possible that people have seen this in spider siblings and attributed it to the spider wobble effect.

The fact that individuals who have never exhibited the wobble can produce first generation offspring who do, makes it extremely unlikely that you could even isolate the gene so it could be removed from the pool.
At this point I do believe the wobble condition is genetically linked to the spider gene, but some individuals simply suffer from it very mildly or not at all. Since they can still produce wobbling offspring, it's obvious that despite the fact they don't wobble, they still possess the gene.
It will be interesting to revisit this subject in 10 years to see if anyone will be capable of even putting together a closed breeding group in which no wobbles are ever produced. If that happens then my theory will be proven incorrect, but it will take MANY wobble free clutches and a number of generations to gain enough data to conclusively say the condition has been eliminated from a given group.
I'm not confident that will happen though, and as far as eliminating the wobble from captive bloodlines entirely, I'm afraid that's an all but impossible goal.

[CornNut]

Clay,

Good points.

I also question the report of non spider siblings showing the spinning. This is the first place I've heard of that.

I have however heard from more than one large breeder that ALL spiders exhibit the problem to some degree. It was suggested that a good test would be to touch your spider on the nose and watch it flip out.

However, I'm not ready to completely discount the claims by some to have, in some cases large numbers, of non spinning spiders. There has to be some variable as to why the tendency to spin is more pronounced in some spiders than others and why it can vary within the lifetime of an individual spider. I think figuring that variable out might be our best bet to treat the problem.

Given the unprecedented degree of outbreeding in the spiders to date with almost no inbreeding I strongly suspect that it's the spider mutation its self that is causing the spinning and not a separate gene that could be bred out. Just like white sides and reduced pattern the spinning seems to be another expression of the spider mutation. Sure we can keep trying to cull the spinning out and it might eventually work some how by stumbling on a gene that compensates for that symptom or a slight further mutation of the mutant allele of the spider locus to keep the pattern but leave the spinning behind but it also might never happen.

I think our best bet is if we can validate claims of collections with large numbers of spiders showing little evidence of spinning and figure out what the variable is (nutrition, temperature, humidity, etc.) and hope to find a treatment. Unfortunately, when finances are involved reliable information can be hard to come by.

[Wolfy-hound]

It won't be easy, but I feel it has at least the same chance of success as the idea of weeding out the kinking in Caramel Albinos.
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt).
I've noticed that people who produce little to no spiders, tend to say things like "All spiders exhibit it" while large producers of spiders will deny that it happens often. Whether thise would be delibrite(I doubt that) or whether it's a case of kennel blindness(my personal theory, MY snakes don't have any problems although everyone else's snakes might have problems) I'm not sure.
I do know that Hepburn wobbled when she came out of the box, but I didn't notice that it was something wrong, I was putting her quickly into a bin to relax after being shipped to me. When I examined her about a week later(plenty of time to settle in) then I immediately noted this horrifieing wobble. I called Neil Golli, in a total panic thinking IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.
The seller told me on two occasions that they HAD a wobbler. He repeatedly told me he would breed her no problem, he hadn't wanted to sell her anyway, and would replace her with a hatchling(she is 600 grams at this point due to him not returning emails, waffling over whether it was a problem etc). When I told him a hatchling was unacceptable he waffled more. Last time I heard from him (Cornered him at a show) he assured me he would get a replacement at about the same size. That's the last I heard from him again. At this point, I'm trying to gather all my emails to go to the BOI on it.
We'll see eventually.
Theresa

[NorthernRegius.com]

...
I've touched Sam(my spider male-non-wobbler) on his nose a lot of times, he's NEVER shown any wobbles. So the idea that you can see wobbles in every spider is false(unless I have the ONLY known one in existance, which I doubt)... IBD. He reassured me over that, and described the wobble syndrome.

Theresa

My Spider is also wobble free. She enjoys when I touch FT rat noses to hers then she engulfs their heads in her mouth easier. She's never wobbled & at 2 years I hope she never does. If she did, she would not be bred- period.

I am aware that other folks may or may not cull to the degree I will- to each their own. Change starts one person at a time, if enough folks feel it's important enough to do you soon have a trend. I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

To worry about what someone else does & use it as a reason to lower my standards sounds too much like making an excuse. Excuses are used to keep folks from making changes. I feel this is important enough so I'll do the culling. What others do, good luck to them. Perhaps I'm doing overkill, but as long as I'm doing what I love I'll do it in a way I feel is proper then it's all good.

[Wolfy-hound]

And YOU will one day be that person with the completely wobble-free bloodline perhaps. Because you value qulaity above all else.
Kudos to you.
I see people breeding their limping little poodle-dogs with bad knees, and I'm sure some breed the kinked back caramels, and the wobble-headed spiders. Don't make it right.
Wolfy

[LadyOhh]

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

[Clay Davenport]

I will closely observe my spider's hatchlings and I hope I won't see any wobbles- if I do they will not be bred.

Herein will lie your problem though. If your spider does produce offspring with the wobble, then your female will be shown to possess the gene that causes wobbling, in whatever form it might be. If your intent is to attempt to get rid of the gene and develop a wobble free breeding group, then your female must be retired as well. It isn't enough to just cull the wobbling offspring because if you are working on the assumption that the condition can actually be eliminated then the non wobbling siblings will also carry the possibility of producing wobbling offspring just as their wobble free parent did.
The first wobble that is produced results in the necessity of restarting the project with a new wobble free founding animal until you eventually acquire one that never throws a wobbler.

Until now I would have never imagined actually using that many variations of the word wobble in a single paragraph......

At any rate, I do sincerely wish you luck in developing a group that is genuinely wobble free. I would love to think that is possible, but at this point I still hold the position that it will not be accomplished. Until proven otherwise I believe the wobble trait is genetically linked to the spider gene, and a certain percentage of individuals simply do not exhibit the symptoms.
Based on that belief, I expect you will produce some with wobbles regardless of how many founding animals you use in the attempt.
Hopefully I am wrong.

Wobbling was the dirty little secret of spiders for a long time, especially when they were asking 15 grand each for one. No one wanted to rock that boat load of cash. Now that it has become common knowledge, some apparently believe it was introduced or spontaneously manifested itself somewhere along the line when it was actually there from the beginning.
I fully agree with Randy in that we also need to examine whether there are any external influences which can cause the condition to be manifested to a greater or lesser degree. There has to be some basis for the variance seen with this condition ranging from barely noticeable to incapacitating.

[Wolfy-hound]

Hahaha, I can't read that without laughing. Having to use the term "wobble" just makes it sound like 'seseme street does science.' Oh man...
I was thinking about that same point, that the parent that threw the wobbling offspring would need to be eliminated as well. If you used a male and female spider to produce the offspring, you'd have to individually test each one to see who threw it. Not to mention if you have a wobble-headed one in a clutch three years later from the same parent, do you go back and cull out all of the siblings? It gets comlex quickly, BUT by eliminating all the wobble-headed ones only, you are still doing better than simply breeding all of them, wobble-headed ones too.
Ever TRY to say "Wobble-headed ones"? I keep going "Wobble-headed Wons" and now my neighbor at the coffee shop is laughing at me.
My tongue is cramping now.
Wolfy

[SPJ]

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?


No wobble and no spots.
And I can touch her nose without her going into convulsions (or biting me). :D She's a pig but prefers the taste of rats over me. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/reptiles/pythons/ball%20pythons/DSCN0214.jpg

[NorthernRegius.com]

Herein will lie your problem though. If your spider does produce offspring with the wobble, then your female will be shown to possess the gene that causes wobbling, in whatever form it might be. If your intent is to attempt to get rid of the gene and develop a wobble free breeding group, then your female must be retired as well.

Absolutely, she would have to be retired and her offspring not bred.

And I'll work my other projects and look for another wobble-free Spider to try out down the line. Yes, it's a risk. Thanks for the well wishes. I'm more worried about the Caramel project than I am this one. I sure hope my Spider girlie does well next year. Great opportunity & risk usually go together.

[NorthernRegius.com]

I have greatly enjoyed this thread, and have discussed it with several other people as well... A topic dear to my own heart.

So my other Devil's advocate question is this...

There is a theory spinning around cyber space that spiders that are "clean" (no alien heads) exhibit the trait of wobbling/spinning much more often than those with more pattern to them (dots on the sides, etc).

Does anyone have a comment on that?

Here's my girl; named Cincomy as she was born 050505 :D

http://byfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pWZZh3TCHCz6IrBNz2lfRCySV7KLXCo12Fc4SQtJhkvWHPXs ZLnf57g6UC4bKzJLx3nPxFykSsfrFIskSQTNBru0mYEmJTYXjv rUGCLVR_Fo

http://byfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pWZZh3TCHCz6IrBNz2lfRC_6unpcAHgwVus3KY8YYmCV9ch9 46TtXQxClZ1gittK2rj31kyteE992vKagPvFvBMmVXPbPF7UOX CF3oPzW7GBdzsjI3jhMsg

PS Steve, your Spider ROCKS!

[Wolfy-hound]

Here is Sam, my non-wobble spider.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/wolfy-hound/Snakes/9d4da4c7.jpg

This is Hepburn, my wobble-head. She really is sweet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/wolfy-hound/Snakes/Hepburn.jpg

[CornNut]

I guess the point is there are two fundamentally different models for what might be going on here. On one side is the idea that some separate gene (not the mutation gene we want) is causing spiders to spin and caramels to kink. If that is the case then ruthless culling should be the answer.

The other model is that spinning and kinking are just one of the several tendencies inherent to the spider and caramel mutant genes themselves. If this is the case perhaps your decision will be that these morphs should not be bred. Alternatively, you could try to figure out why some report large numbers of non spinning spiders and non kinking caramels in the hopes there is some way to suppress the genetic tendency of the mutation.

The first step is to ascertain if there really is a significant variation from collection to collection. The two claims to the effect that all spiders have it to some extent that I referenced where both from big breeders. One juvenile spider that may not have shown it yet doesn’t mean much but there are claims from spider breeders of not seeing it in groups of animals. There was also a claim by a fair sized caramel breeder of no kinks. If any of these claims are true and not just a blind eye to marketing they offer some hope. What is different about these collections? Could a simple supplement make all the difference?

[NorthernRegius.com]

Theresa,

Both are very cute. I don't know enough about the defect, but note the joined dark out-line on Hepburn's head? Heard that a connected head outline was something to avoid...

Note that all 3 "non-wobblers" have a break in this outline? I don't know, this business can be so darn secretive- drives me nuts!

I do hope someone does figure out the true nature of the defect just as much as I hope my girl & her offspring prove out wobble-free along with your boy & Steve's too, of course!

[LadyOhh]

Deb, can you elaborate? I'm trying to see what you mean about the photos.

As for everyone else, the photos you post are of NON-wobblers?

[SPJ]

Deb, can you elaborate? I'm trying to see what you mean about the photos.

As for everyone else, the photos you post are of NON-wobblers?

Yes. Theresa's female Hepburn was the only one that was a wobbler.

This one has no wobble at all so I don't think it has anything to do with a reduced pattern or having a lot of white. I am curious about the head outline being connected though.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/reptiles/pythons/ball%20pythons/DSCN0048.jpg

[NorthernRegius.com]

Back when I was looking to buy... I had been hearing a bit of rumors about "problems" with the Spider. At the time Kevin (NERD) had most the spiders but some had been sold off. I posted in the BC forums, Kingsnake & other places... the theory about the wobble ranged from "excessive line breeding" to "well there's your Super" (the later a rather interesting case NOT to try to produce a homozygous Spider).

If the true nature of the defect was known at the time, no one came right out with it- Spiders had hiccuped down under 10K but 5-7K was still a chunk of change. I remember that there was an interactive discussion about Spiders (on Kingsnake I believe)...

I asked what everyone "looked for" in a Spider. I paid attention when this was replied to- some liked high white some said low white with the "thinner" web markings... and more than one biggie mentioned a break in the head pattern as desireable. Does it mean anything? I DON'T know, but I find it interesting that all photos of the non-wobblers have breaks in the outlines on their heads.

If anyone has a non-wobble head Spider with a connected head pattern like Hepburn, I hope they post... it's be too easy to have that be a visual marker of trouble wouldn't it?

I believe that the double expression of the gene should be avoided. Cornnut, do the Pastel & Spider gene share locus or ? Do you think the defect could be due to the homozygous expression of the Spider gene (instead of homozygous lethal, it's a homozygous "gimp" so to speak?).

PS
Cornnut, The Caramel issue IMO may well be linked to a calcium deficiency... more like a predisposed difficulty in absorbing calcium- what do are your thoughts on that? If true then supplementation may prevent the defect.

[CornNut]

The existence of killer bees proves that pastel and spider are at different loci. Actually, as quickly and often as they have been produced tends to indicate that the spider and pastel mutations aren't even on the same chromosome, at least not very close together if on the same.

I don't think there have been enough spider X spider breedings to account for the spinners. In fact, the average spider might be more outbred than the average egg pulled out of the wild. For whatever reason there doesn't seem to be much interest in breeding spider X spider any more and I'm not sure much was ever done in comparison with all the spider X normal clutches.

One thing that I think is interesting is the idea that some spiders start and stop spinning at different times in their life. Like a lot of the information on this subject it's hard to know what to believe. The pattern would be set by hatching time so if there is a link between pattern and spinning then that would tend to indicate some early development variable or gene penetrance or what the mother was fed or something like that. However, if all appearances of spiders can stop or start spinning at different times it might be more likely some environmental variable like a nutrient in their diet that could be used to control the problem in any spider at any time in its life.

With caramels I believe it has to be some variable that has worked by the time they hatch (either kinked or not). If there are some producing large numbers of not kinked caramels it would be interesting to know what they are feeding their rodents. Could calcium or folic acid make a difference? Maybe in both cases something needs to be avoided that normals can tolerate better? To complicate the caramel picture I understand there may be several new variations of caramel that in some cases appear to be compatible but consistently look different. Perhaps there are multiple mutant versions of the gene at the caramel locus (and I'm still not sure this isn't also the regular albino locus - i.e. I don't think caramel and regular albino have been proven not compatible yet). Maybe there will be a version that doesn't have the kinking side effect and culling will result in it eventually replacing the one that does.

[NorthernRegius.com]

The existence of killer bees proves that pastel and spider are at different loci. Actually, as quickly and often as they have been produced tends to indicate that the spider and pastel mutations aren't even on the same chromosome, at least not very close together if on the same.


I thought so, so a homozygous pairing of the Spider gene in a bee could be why some wobble...


I don't think there have been enough spider X spider breedings to account for the spinners. In fact, the average spider might be more outbred than the average egg pulled out of the wild. For whatever reason there doesn't seem to be much interest in breeding spider X spider any more and I'm not sure much was ever done in comparison with all the spider X normal clutches.

Back at the start, I'd argue- but I fear you're right... which would nix the homozyous theory.

One thing that I think is interesting is the idea that some spiders start and stop spinning at different times in their life. Like a lot of the information on this subject it's hard to know what to believe. The pattern would be set by hatching time so if there is a link between pattern and spinning then that would tend to indicate some early development variable or gene penetrance or what the mother was fed or something like that. However, if all appearances of spiders can stop or start spinning at different times it might be more likely some environmental variable like a nutrient in their diet that could be used to control the problem in any spider at any time in its life.

If true, I agree that we might be looking well beyond genetic factors & more towards a environmental trigger. If so, then the defect could be controled. Still, the weakness or predisposition would still technically be genetic, don't you agree? We'd just have to work around it.

With caramels I believe it has to be some variable that has worked by the time they hatch (either kinked or not). If there are some producing large numbers of not kinked caramels it would be interesting to know what they are feeding their rodents. Could calcium or folic acid make a difference? Maybe in both cases something needs to be avoided that normals can tolerate better?

I believe that it's possible that the gravid female may hold the key in the kinking issue- that correct supplimentation to her during the breeding cycle may be the fix... but only time will tell. This is why I need to get to more herp shows & ply a few folks with drink...

To complicate the caramel picture I understand there may be several new variations of caramel that in some cases appear to be compatible but consistently look different. Perhaps there are multiple mutant versions of the gene at the caramel locus (and I'm still not sure this isn't also the regular albino locus - i.e. I don't think caramel and regular albino have been proven not compatible yet). Maybe there will be a version that doesn't have the kinking side effect and culling will result in it eventually replacing the one that does.

Funny you mention this! There is a yellowhead strain of "normal" Albino that is supposed to be genetic yet compatable with other Albino strains, I'm checking into it for my projects. Perhaps the colour & pattern mutations happen to be present in the single animal but can be distributed singly or like you suggest the locus is very complex...

I always enjoy your posts BTW, thanks for taking time to discuss!

[Wolfy-hound]

Good eyes!! I never spotted the connected head pattern as different. Perhaps something we could look through pictures of non-wobble spiders for? That would be rather ignominous.
I don't think wobbles are homozygous, since non-wobbles have produced wobbles and vice versa, with normals thrown into the mix all over. I thinkt hey may very well be some little side thing that happens to be linked with the spider gene. Some people have said they have non-spider wobblers. Locating them and seeing if they have spider relatives, and if they are in fact wobblers and not injuries or something unrelated would be a good thing. In fact the problem is locating wobblers. You know there has to be quite a few out there(if people haven't culled them all) but getting people to admit they have one, that's a different story.
Wolfy

[SPJ]

Here is the male Corey Woods posted pics of that has the severe wobble.
I emailed him asking for a pic of the top of the head if possible. I would like to know if it has the broken head stripe.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1240278,1240386

[Wolfy-hound]

you can't see the top of its head in any of those pictures.
wolfy

[SPJ]

you can't see the top of its head in any of those pictures.
wolfy

That's why I said I emailed him about the top of the head. :rofl:

[Wolfy-hound]

I hate to double post, but I realized that was an entire thread after I posted about the picture.
In that thread there is the following information,
MKReptile: 2 normal spider siblings that wobbled
Steve Harrison: spider that wobbled when young, but doesn't wobble now. Pic shows a solid band across the back of the head, but it doesn't connect to the side lines.
phoerner: spider that wobbles, is still young but breeding. Pic: no solid line across the back but solid lines from side wrapping to the other side(across the nose-mustache)
DZBReptiles: 3 female spiders, 2 wobble and have no spots, clean pattern, 1 does NOT wobble, and has the alien head type spots.
Kim @ N.A.R.C.: Had some that wobbled but they mostly grew out of it.

Some good information there and a couple posts imply that they had a LOT of wobblers that were bred anyway, producing some non and some wobblers later.
Very tre cool linkage there, thank you!
Theresa

[NorthernRegius.com]

Well from that thread it may be only a matter of time before I see wobbling in my girl's offspring, but I'll still give it a try & hope for the best. It is true that in mammals, (I bred show rabbits & dogs in the past): you linebreed to go for a "type", then outcross to keep the defects down; if you get defects... you cull the defects. That's the accepted procedure. Even with pedigrees & proof of parentage there are certain "typey" breeds I wouldn't touch; too many defects.

If enough BP folks cull & out cross maybe the defect will eventually be eliminated. Since it's a dominant trait it's very easy to outcross but if Kevin's theory is right & it's tied straight with the pattern itself... that's a long road.

The Spider has got to be my favorite pattern mutation (tied with pied). I truly hope we find a way to understand how the motor issues are passed. -Deb

[LadyOhh]

Is this is a connected head pattern you were discussing?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/LadyOhh/Snakes/P1000108.jpg

He is not a spinner or a wobbler...

[NorthernRegius.com]

I can't tell if it's all the way connected, if the black outline we see in profile is without break from nose, along sides AND connected in back above the neck then it's the pattern. Good to know he's not a wobber; figures that head markings would be way too simple a way to tell if there's a problem.

Most folks say that if a Spider shows the problem it will be evident when they are young & less so as they age. Has anyone had a young wobble-free Spider develop the problem later? This is important as I need to know how long to hold the offspring from my girl- if none of them wobble I do intend sell a few of them at some point. No hurry, but I am curious what the lastest age is for the potential onset of the defect would be, in order to be confident it's not an issue.

My plan was and is to keep a some females back- the reputation of the Spider as such a hearty morph had me convinced that the females would be good breeders. That's still my plan if the offspring are free of defect like my sub-adult female is.

[edf01]

Well, I just learned of the wobble issue with the spider morph- cause I was starting to freak out about some odd behavior from my spider. I have had the spider for a month, just got it from a show. Just this past sunday I saw it corkscrewing minorly as he was checking out the top of his cage. That was th eonly time I saw him do it, and he doesn't do it outside of the cage.

I am now concerned b/c I planned on breeding him. Truth be told, if I was aware of this issue in th espider morph, I would not have invested in th emorph.

My question is:

How can one prevent from buying a wobbler spider? My spider show sno signs of wobbling when being held, and I have seen him cruising around his cage not wobbling. I have only seen him wobble once.
Now, would a breeder be truthful if asked if the spider they were selling wobbles?
Originally, I just planned on buying a new spider morph in a few months, but I'll be honest- if I ask a breeder if it wobbles and they say no, and it turns out to wobble, i'd be really mad. Yes, the price has dropped, but still, it is alarge chunk of change and I wouldn't want to invest in another spider if it was just going to wobble. How can one go about to be sure to get a non-wobbling spider?

Just for pic reference, here is th epattern on my snakes head. I'd consider him a minor wobbler ( so far, I have only observed him wobbling once, and I am keeping an eye on him to see how severe/how often he wobbles)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r245/edf01/IMG_0533.jpg

:sigh: I wish I knew about this before I purchased a spider morph. BUT worse case scenerio- I have a beautiful pet spider bp. :D

edf

[SPJ]

The corkscrewing when looking up at the top of the cage would be, what I would consider, very minor. Some have it to the extreme where they are so bad, they cannot breed or function properly.
At one time, there was someone using the no wobble as a selling point. He was priced higher than market and IMO, it would have been worth out. He probably had to end up selling them at a lower price or be stuck with them.
Almost all of the big breeders will tell you that ALL spiders wobble and it makes no difference. I think that is just so they can sell them without repercussions because of the problem.
You can find ones without it but they are hard to come by.
In your case, since it is so minor, I would not worry too much. If it was me, I would only breed him to an unrelated animal that is not a spider. Since there is no super form, spider x spider is not neccesary IMO.
I think the more you outcross spiders to other animals, the more you lessen the chance of the problem appearing.
Good luck and the head pattern is really nice on yours.

[edf01]

Well, I am relieved a tad to hear your response, BUT I still may decide to not breed him. It depends on how much he does it and all. I do have at least another year til my female pastel has a chance to be up to breeding weight ( she is at 416 grams, so maybe next season, as in not this upcoming winter, but the one after) so we'll see how often he does it or doesn't do it.

I did just take him out and gently touched his nose and VERY GENTLY petted the top of his head- no freaking out head movements, just the normal reaction of pulling the head back with the look of 'hey, dont touch me there!'

My plans with him was to breed him with the pastel, and possibly to a mohave ( if/when I invest in one of them) And if I do decide to breed him, i'd start out with just one breeding with him, and see what the offspring do. If they show th e undesirable signs to the bad levels, then I know for sure I should not breed him again. But this all varies with how the spider's condition goes. I want to be known for breeding good lines of snakes, and I don't want to put out these desirable traits. So, we'll see how it goes, i'll keep monitoring his condition, and if it gets any worse, breeding is definatly out of th equestion.

It's kinda a shame, because I planned on working with spiders- I love their pattern and really want to work with the bee line morphs and such. But know that I learned out this new info, I may have a change in plans. I want what is best for the snakes and the potential customers I may get in the future. I am sure i'll eventually get a bumblebee at least, but I may focus on other morphs more.

Either way, I love my spider to death. Yeah, he may end up being the most expensive pet I bought, but he is such a cutiepie that he is worth it.

I have heard that all spiders wobble to a point- it may just be very minor head shakes to 'complete trainwrecks'. But, as I already stated, I don't really know too much about it- i just found out 2 days ago myself!

I am glad I found this thread- very informative to read on this subject.



:D

edf

[WingedWolf]

Well, this is a necro-thread, but I figured I would give it a poke and see if it twitches.

I just got a baby spider with a wobble. Yep. I noticed it while offering him his first mouse in my care, and was concerned...but thought I remembered reading something...so I went and did a search on it, and it pulled up this thread. I am now less concerned.

In my opinion, there is a very good chance that this trait is inextricably entwined with spider genetics. If it is, then I further suggest that, while line-breeding for a reduction in the severity of its expression is definitely desireable (IF possible), we probably shouldn't panic over it. Spiders are beautiful...if they wobble a little, they're still beautiful. They might just be the fainting goats of the ball python world. If this trait seldom substantially impairs the animals, then I see no reason why it has to be a major concern. I understand from what I have read here that a few animals are severely impaired...but what sort of numbers are involved there? How does it compare with other deformities that crop up in hatchlings on a semi-regular basis? If the incidence of severe impairment is low enough to be in line with eye deformities and such, then I don't believe it should deter people from breeding spiders.

I also don't think that reading about this should deter people from breeding a spider they currently own that has a minor wobble. I do think that holding back and breeding animals that do not have a noticeable wobble is most desireable, but if you're starting out with a wobble-head, it doesn't mean that its offspring will all have the trait with equal severity (or at all--though I tend to favor the idea they all have it, and it's simply not noticeable to us in some). Why would I take that stance? Because, as I understand it, the original spider had the wobble. This means every single spider out there is descended from a wobble-head. If any of them consistantly produce offspring without it, that's proof it can be bred out of them in a few generations at most. If those that do not have it will always produce offspring that do, then there is no point in starting with a non-wobbler. At most you would gain one generation of trying for a wobble-free line.
This is PROBABLY not going to be a quick fix. If it's possible to get rid of the wobble at all, then it will most likely be done by reducing the incidence and severity of the trait over time, and not by finding a (probably mythical) spider which doesn't have the gene for it at all, and thus produces no wobbler offspring.
In other words, cull the worst 'offenders', favor those that don't show the trait visibly, and be prepared to do it over and over again over many generations, because it's unlikely that it's going to just vanish with a couple generations of outcrossing.
The only thing gained by purchasing a non-wobbler is a single generation of this process. A search for a spider that never produces wobblers is probably a fruitless one, and honestly--is just letting someone else do the work of eliminating the trait rather than going ahead and working it out yourself.

In any case, that's how I plan to handle the issue with my animals. As has been pointed out, spiders are virtually never bred to one another, and the line is extremely well out-crossed, so it doesn't look very good for eliminating the wobble trait. It's worth a try...but not a panic, or a moratorium on breeding any spider with a bit of a wobble. If all wobblers produced all wobbling offspring, and non-wobblers produced all non-wobbling offspring, then it would make sense. Since that is far from the case...why be radical about it?

You can't make the argument that breeding a wobbler just puts more wobblers out on the market...because so does breeding a non-wobbler. Most spiders have the trait, at the very worst you're maintaining a status quo, not making a problem worse. If you don't breed them at all, there is certainly no chance to try to eliminate the problem or reduce it to consistantly liveable levels.

The argument that the wobble is a defect, and defective animals should not be bred, just begs the question of what you consider a genuine problem in a species undergoing domestication. Red-eyed albinos are defective. Without any doubt or question. They are light-sensitive, and as with albinos of other species, most likely susceptable to going blind when exposed to light excessively. They are prone to sunburn. These things are indicative of a defect that impairs the animal to some degree.
I have yet to see anyone of note calling for a moratorium on breeding amelanistics and snows of any species.

If the wobble is there to stay in spiders, then we can still love spiders for what they are, wobble and all. If it can't be eliminated, I see no reason to consign them to the status of 'defective' and stop working with them. Even if I did, most people wouldn't. The trait isn't 'cute', but it's not automatically dire and pitiful, either.

I would definitely like to see people who are working with a lot of spiders update information on this thread--to report if they find normal sibs with the trait, consistant lines of spiders without it, etc etc. That's the quickest way we have of all getting to the bottom of the issue. We could use less 'maybe', less 'I heard someone say that...'...and a lot more "this is what I personally saw".

[Mooing Tricycle]

... how come noone told me about this thread? This is totally an interesting topic that we spider loving ball python fans should be talking about!


This is something i plan to work on, just for myself to learn and see what i can do. I have a Male Spider that does not wobble *ill find pictures later for you guys* and i plan on a couple females, and such later on down the road that i can really keep track of genetics on, that also do not wobble.

This is also something i plan on taking years and years to do though. :) and... since im not really going anywhere that fast, i figure... why the heck not!?

I want to see if it is possible, like it was suggested earlier, to figure out what exactly is causing this problem and if they truly all do have it as some people seem to be saying. Its something i feel, for myself is a pretty long term goal that is going to take alot of time and insane selective breeding to figure out, but i am excited to think about working on it,like i said before if for noone else but myself.

Itll be a learning experience for sure. I also want to state that, If my spider produces anyone that wobbles, he will never be bred again.

To others also daring to take the time and care in taking something like this on eventually, i wish you the best of luck!


Edit*

Some Images

http://pics.livejournal.com/mooingtricycle/pic/0003s5bk
http://pics.livejournal.com/mooingtricycle/pic/0003tbtp
http://pics.livejournal.com/mooingtricycle/pic/0003wtkz

[NorthernRegius.com]

Alicia, all I can say for certain is that NOT ALL Spiders wobble.

EDF01, I see various morphs position themselves in contorted positions when cruising in the rack... my 1st snake (a normal male) will raise his head to the top of his rack & lean the top of his head backwards looking for an opening. It's a very controlled movement & he's not the only snake I have that does this. Once I open his cage, he puts his head rightside up & comes out of the cage... if your Spider is doing that, I wouldn't call it abnormal.

This year my female Spider should breed (as long as she's 1500g or more... so far so good). I've an Axanthic male I want to pair her with which should give me Spiders & Normals that are het for Axanthic. I'll watch over the hatchlings for any defects & as I said before, I'll keep folks posted on how they do good or bad. If there's any wobble issues or not I'll share the info. Hopefully won't be wobbles as that a project ender for me if there are. The risk is worth the reward & if it doesn't pan out, I'll move on... that's a good reason to have other projects IMHO.

That old saying- "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies here.

[Mooing Tricycle]

Alicia, all I can say for certain is that NOT ALL Spiders wobble.

EDF01, I see various morphs position themselves in contorted positions when cruising in the rack... my 1st snake (a normal male) will raise his head to the top of his rack & lean the top of his head backwards looking for an opening. It's a very controlled movement & he's not the only snake I have that does this. Once I open his cage, he puts his head rightside up & comes out of the cage... if your Spider is doing that, I wouldn't call it abnormal.

This year my female Spider should breed (as long as she's 1500g or more... so far so good). I've an Axanthic male I want to pair her with which should give me Spiders & Normals that are het for Axanthic. I'll watch over the hatchlings for any defects & as I said before, I'll keep folks posted on how they do good or bad. If there's any wobble issues or not I'll share the info. Hopefully won't be wobbles as that a project ender for me if there are. The risk is worth the reward & if it doesn't pan out, I'll move on... that's a good reason to have other projects IMHO.

That old saying- "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" applies here.

I would like, if someone is able, to see video of animals that do wobble. i have not seen it personally, but i HAVE seen a normal Spinner. Orlin, my spider, does not exhibit any strange movements that alarm me as to being something anything than normal. he my "telescope" the really cute, put their head up higher than their body and look over things. but most of my ball pythons do that every now and then.
When in feeding mode, i notice that his muscles get tense, like all ball pythons in feeding mode, and at that point in time, there is bounce. But, like i said i do not consider that anything more than the muscles tensed and ready to strike at incoming prey. I will get video of him moving around/feeding and get it uploaded when i have a bit more free time too. if anything for reference.

but not. wobbling or any loss of motor control. I can flip him upside down and he will right himself, i can turn him and hold him upsidedown and he will right his head. when he moves, it is usually pretty determined. Ie: Im out in the open! i better find a hiding spot!


I agree that NOT ALL spiders wobble, I just hope that Those of us that are attempting this, and plan on attempting this ( me ) will help for others to say that "not all spiders carry the gene" as well.

This is going to sounds like a noob question, and i could probably find it by just googling, and make myself sound like i know something as simple, but im not that way sooo Who produced the first spiders ever? is stock from both parents, seperate, and together available? i think this would help greatly in proving/disproving which adult, if both, the problem came from too.
some of the offspring from the first clutches would be a good idea to track down too!

I really am happy to see others doing this! i will willingly, once i get started, share any information i get, and pictures and what have you. The more information we can collect the better.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[NorthernRegius.com]

Alicia,
Kevin at NERD had the first Spiders I believe. You'll note the many designer morphs he produced well in advance of the Spider becoming readily available. He was definately one of the main folks involved with this mutation. If I'm mistaken about Kevin being the first or anyone would like to add more to the history, that'd be great.

[WingedWolf]

What I have noticed so far with my little guy is not a lack of motor control--he has also done the 'head upside down' motion to explore the top of his bin--but a vibration of his head when he holds it up in an attitude of interest when examining prey. The more interested he is, it seems, the more his head vibrates. This tremor doesn't appear to keep him from otherwise normal behavior, and I have not noticed him acting abnormally when the top of his head is touched. While he is still a hatchling, the normal hatchling around the same age that we have in the household doesn't exhibit this tremor. I almost mistook this at first for him trying to match the motion of his head to the slight movement of the mouse dangling from the tongs.

The 'bounce' is a wobble--the trait becomes more pronounced when the animals are in hunting mode. Watch normal ball pythons closely when they hunt, and compare--you'll see that it is far more pronounced in the spiders, and almost palsied. I suspect some of the folks who think they have non-wobblers actually don't...they just have animals that display the trait to a minor degree, and they aren't sure what they are looking at. I think the idea of someone making a video to demonstrate it is a very good one, but unfortunately I don't have a video camera.

[LadyOhh]

I will be making a video very soon to share...

[Mooing Tricycle]

I suspect some of the folks who think they have non-wobblers actually don't...they just have animals that display the trait to a minor degree, and they aren't sure what they are looking at.

I just watched heathers videos and can say that my animal does not display the traits you are speaking of, nor the ones shown in her videos. i am not saying it is NOT possible, but that, from seeing the video, and seeing the extreme and understanding it, would help me to figure out more minor instances of it, i believe personally with 100% honesty that My spider does not wobble.

Granted she said that was her worst, so if/when she has more time i believe she said she was going to get more videos of the ones that dont do it to the degree that one did. we will compare then.

Saying that all spiders wobble and its probably only because people just dont know what they are looking at, is a bit of a stretch, at least for this thread as there are several people here who keep plenty more ball pythons than myself, and have seen many many more ball pythons as well who say, theirs too, Do not wobble. i do not think these people would make that sort of thing up, or not know what they are talking about... based on their experience. BUT.... The possibility of all spiders carrying the gene, is not so much of a stretch, and is something i am always keeping in mind.But i believe that it is very possible for a Spider to never display the trait.

[Mooing Tricycle]

The 'bounce' is a wobble--the trait becomes more pronounced when the animals are in hunting mode.


And not a bounce of the head IE tipping it down as they are moving, as i saw in the videos as well.. bounce of tense muscles as the snake may move forward, or from somone jarring the tub/feeding tank/enclosure at feeding time. All snakes get this when they are tense and in the s curve to strike. if you open a tub and they make the s curve with their neck, they will bounce from the movement of the tub.

[WingedWolf]

Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.

[Mooing Tricycle]

Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.


she posted the links in chat. She will post them later i am sure

[WingedWolf]

There's a chat? *starts hunting*

[Mooing Tricycle]

There's a chat? *starts hunting*


Top Green bars. Says chat, and sometimes has a number with yellow surrounding it. that shows how many people are in the chat room at a time.

[Mooing Tricycle]

I got video ( crappy quality, and lighting) of my spider being moved around. He did not appreciate it one bit. but, so that i can show what i am saying about my guy not wobbling.

I will get feeding stuff asap!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/MooingTricycle/th_100_2121.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v628/MooingTricycle/?action=view&current=100_2121.flv)

[LadyOhh]

I do not want to publically post my video at this point, but if you would like to see it, please PM me.

[NorthernRegius.com]

Where did you watch her video? I do not see a link, lol...

I don't think that everyone who says their spider doesn't wobble is just missing it, either--I said that SOME of them probably are. Particularly when you get folks who have a really huge collection with a lot of spiders in it, and say that none of them wobble.

I own over 30 python regius, in addition to SD & Madu Retics. My collections are pampered pets first- they all have names & are handled frequently.

I saw the video Correy Woods posted (in another forum) of the male Spider someone sent him- lots of cork-screwing & wobble. My female Spider has not ever shown any of those behaviors even on a minor scale. She doesn't freak out when prey touches her nose, she doesn't "bounce" when hunting.

The breeder I got her from bred her from a wobble free male, a very nice snake. So that's 2 generations... does it mean my girl is in the clear? Only time will tell. But I do stand by what I said- not all Spiders wobble. Hopefully we can control it with selective breeding, we'll only find out for sure by trying & seeing what happens.

[Wolfy-hound]

If someone will remind me in about a week or two, I'll try to get video of my wobble girl.. umm wobbling.
She wobbles very badly, and was sold to me as a 100% healthy snake.

[jglass38]

I still believe that all Spiders show some sort of "wobble". I use the term because it has been most used in this thread. It can be something as drastic as flipping over on its back, something less drastic as a little shake in the head or as subtle as a slight head tilt when sitting still. Its really up to the breeder to decide which ones should be bred and which shouldn't. Unfortunately, as shown by a multitude of BOI threads, there are quite a few unscrupulous people out there that will not only breed the worst of the spinners, but sell them to people as perfectly fine.

[Mooing Tricycle]

Heres another video. This one is much clearer, though i forgot to flip him in this one. I can take another later on if needed.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=326AE8nc2fs

[Wolfy-hound]

If all spiders wobble, then how can you say that Mooing Tricycle's wobbles? There's no wobble visable there.
If you observe ANY ball python closely for an extended amount of time, especially when they are fixated on prey, you are certain to see some tremer, some tilt, some anything that you can point to and go "AH HA!!". But that's like someone following you around all day long, until you bump into something and immediately saying that you are drunk. Everyone bumps into things at some point, and every snake is going to do something odd at some point.
I stand by my statement. Not all spiders wobble. My Sam doesn't. The 3 babies don't seem to, although being tiny hatchlings, I've seen their heads move around when they have them raised up looking at prey, but same as other tiny hatchlings, so I can't say yea or nay. Hepburn DOES wobble and is an extreme case.
Again, now I have time to video, and no batterys. Sigh. Tomorrow I shall pick up batteries. Uploading vids takes a while, but hopefully I'll get something up this weekend at the latest.
Nice snake MooingTricycle BTW.

[Mooing Tricycle]

If all spiders wobble, then how can you say that Mooing Tricycle's wobbles? There's no wobble visable there.

Nice snake MooingTricycle BTW.


Thanks so much for the kind words Theresa!!!

Im looking forward to yours, and others videos/pictures too! * if anyone else wants to join in on this thread of course*





:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[SPJ]

Not all spiders wobble.
You can find ones that don't.
Mine don't wobble and others have ones that don't wobble.

[Lucille]

Not all spiders wobble.
You can find ones that don't.
Mine don't wobble and others have ones that don't wobble.

Spiders are beautiful. I'm thinking that until there's a better idea on how the wobble trait is passed, perhaps it might be a good choice to hold off breeding those that actually exhibit a really bad wobble.

[geckoprincess]

Spiders are beautiful. I'm thinking that until there's a better idea on how the wobble trait is passed, perhaps it might be a good choice to hold off breeding those that actually exhibit a really bad wobble.

I agree.. And you might want to hold off selling the wobbly ass ones also. It is Rediculous to even think about selling a proven breeder Wobbll spider male..

I can post ^^ that right? this is a discussion forum I think... :rofl::rofl::reddevil:

[hhmoore]

There's also a big difference between THAT post, and the one that you received an infraction for...:shootfoot

[zacalaca]

wel looks like i provoked a discussion with my ad trying to sell my wobbly one. i bought two spiders in 2006 (brothers) one of which wobbles. they were both fine until the end of the breeding season last year, and the one started wobbling. when he's in the tub he's fine and dandy, he navigates around his enclosure with ease. but, when you pick him up, or when he gets the smell of food, he gets all loopy. i bred him before he exhibited the trait, and kept his (and his brothers ) offspring for up to a year and not one wobbled. i didn't hear about wobbling until i wondered what the hell was wrong with my snake. is it wrong to sell him? i dont even want to mention what i paid for them, and i would do it again( i love them wobble or not). but as far as breeding him again??? luckily i dont have any spider projects to even consider it.but truthfully, i think alot of people would rather have a wobbly bee or any other spider morph, than none at all.

[hhmoore]

Having purchased my spiders in 06, as well, I know very well what they went for then...but I don't necessarily agree with your stance. Personally, I wouldn't breed a wobbler. As far as selling them, I don't have a problem with you offering yours for sale because you were very forthcoming about the condition...but, I certainly wouldn't buy it for my breeding program. It has been stated repeatedly that wobblers can produce stable offspring, and that stable adults can produce wobblers - but, IMO, that is no reason to use what I would consider sub par animals as breeding stock. If my project yields babies that wobble early on?? I guess it would depend on the degree...if it is severe, they will find their way into the freezer (or become feeders); if it is mild, I might hold onto them to see if the condition improves.

BTW, if you check the date of this thread, you will see that your ad had nothing to do with its start....but, with the option of posting in your thread removed, the discussions moved to a couple of different places.

[geckoprincess]

There's also a big difference between THAT post, and the one that you received an infraction for...:shootfoot

Harry, are my testies black?

[zacalaca]

the thing is that i didn't start wobbling until going into its third year and it had already been bred the previous season. his brother (the non wobbler as of right now) is the one i bred this past season. now does that mean i shouldn't have bred him as well because his litter mate wobbles now? even a ferrari with flat tires and body damage can be sold, and maybe even driven. the price i'm offering, i'm losing out big time. a wobbler may be all some can afford.

[bad-one]

Well here is how I see it,

A spider that wobbles severely shouldn't be bred, we are not here to reinforce severe wobbling after all. However, since it has been stated the founding male wobbled and that spiders that don't wobble can produce wobbling babies I strongly believe the wobbling is something tied directly to the spider genes and I highly doubt it can be bred out. Not all may exhibit the wobble but I'm sure most of those if not all still carry what causes wobbles.

I'd very much prefer a spider that doesn't wobble since it isn't a desirable trait, but I wouldn't permanently shelf an animal that expressed a slight wobble either.

I think there should be research done on wobbler to normal and non wobbler to normal breedings with %'s taken of how many animals expressed the wobble and to what severity.

[Lucille]

the thing is that i didn't start wobbling until going into its third year and it had already been bred the previous season. his brother (the non wobbler as of right now) is the one i bred this past season. now does that mean i shouldn't have bred him as well because his litter mate wobbles now? even a ferrari with flat tires and body damage can be sold, and maybe even driven. the price i'm offering, i'm losing out big time. a wobbler may be all some can afford.

An entire paragraph of rationalization.

[hhmoore]

You'd be losing big time, even if you were selling a perfect male - and I'm not saying anything against you selling it...it's yours, you have that right. I said I wouldn't use a wobbler in my breeding program. As for a wobbler being all some people can afford, that's a matter of perspective and standards. Maybe they can't afford a breedable male for about $150 more, but that doesn't mean they can't afford a nonwobbler...just that they may not be able to breed it this year.
As you said in your ad, somebody will buy it...and more than likely use it as a breeder.

[SPJ]

wel looks like i provoked a discussion with my ad trying to sell my wobbly one.

Your ad had nothing to do with this thread when I started it back on 02-05-2007.

[zacalaca]

I pay attention. but my ad has sparked new activity. whatever the case, HEY EVERYBODY THE SPIDER I USED TO BREED THIS PAST SEASON HAS A BROTHER WHO WOBBLES, I KNEW THIS AND DID IT ANYWAY. like i said at least i'm honest and didn't try and play down his condition. i hope he can be someones pet, but i wouldn't care if they did breed it- thats their choice. if i saw a catotonic, one eyed, mite infested genetic stripe super phantom ghost pied double het caramel and albino up for sale for 500, i'd strongly consider buying it, if i didn't jump all over it. call it justification or whatever, i know i dont want any "extra" snakes in my collection, and i figured selling him was better than shelving him. rats aren't free last i checked

[Lucille]

if i saw a catotonic, one eyed, mite infested genetic stripe super phantom ghost pied double het caramel and albino up for sale for 500, i'd strongly consider buying it

You are certainly establishing your reputation as a buyer and seller of the halt and the lame.....

[Miss Tuniwha]

Personally. I do not breed to make money, I am breeding to make beautiful, high quality animals. The animals that I purchased to be future breeders are high quality. I had very little money, but I saved up!

I PERSONALLY would never breed a snake that was knowingly defective. Anything that has an obvious genetic defect. (yes I am aware of the spider issues. There are different levels. I would not buy nor sell heavy wobbler. and agree that babies born with a severe wobble should be freezer food. regardless if it is a spider/bee/other mix)

No one eyed wonders will breed here.

The only reason I can see to knowingly breed defects is for greed, or/and a lack of care for quality of the reptiles.

[SPJ]

I pay attention. but my ad has sparked new activity. whatever the case, HEY EVERYBODY THE SPIDER I USED TO BREED THIS PAST SEASON HAS A BROTHER WHO WOBBLES, I KNEW THIS AND DID IT ANYWAY. like i said at least i'm honest and didn't try and play down his condition. i hope he can be someones pet, but i wouldn't care if they did breed it- thats their choice. if i saw a catotonic, one eyed, mite infested genetic stripe super phantom ghost pied double het caramel and albino up for sale for 500, i'd strongly consider buying it, if i didn't jump all over it. call it justification or whatever, i know i dont want any "extra" snakes in my collection, and i figured selling him was better than shelving him. rats aren't free last i checked

You may not have spurred this thread but you are the exact reason I started it. One eyed animals, kinked animals, sever wobblers, etc.....should not be bred. You are the type in this to make a buck with no regards to the animal. How much is a rat? Give me a break. I have a 7 year old normal male here as a pet and he gets a rat every week. He will never be a money maker but he is a pet. Your attitude about these animals is what is wrong with this whole scenario.

[Miss Tuniwha]

... if you can not afford to properly feed the animal (regardless of what kind) then you should not own it. LET ALONE breed it.

example. .. if you can only afford enough rats to feed 4 snakes... only have 4 snakes.

[zacalaca]

you are truly misunderstanding what i'm saying. number one, he did not wobble until he was around three. i bred him at two years old. and if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack? the fact that he's breeding size is why i listed him as so. i am new and really trying NOT to ruin my nonexistant reputation. i would rather someone buy it at a real discount and appreciate it to its fullest, than to have it just being maintained here. i love the breed and always have. seriously have you looked at my ads? i'd much rather trade off all my hatchlings for different morphs t han to sell them and make a killing. i just want what what the big dogs have in their collection (beautiful, rare ball pythons, and i cant afford a 5 figure snake. iguess i'll cut the price more cause apparantly $275 shipped for a full grown animal witha defect is unreasonable. regular breeder sized males sell for what nowadays? 400, 500, 600? if i was in it for the money don't you think i woul've just sold him as a "breeder spider" and tried to get full price. i have him priced low, if i gave him away would that appease you?

[zacalaca]

and by regular breeder size males, i was referring to non wobbling spider males of breeder size.

[zacalaca]

thats not what i'm saying. every one knows that a ball can get to breeding size within 18 months or so. when i was keeping balls as pets, i didn't have them on a power feeding schedule. i fed them a mouse or rat (depending on the size of the snake) once a week, or in some cases every other week. a million dollars is made of a million one dollar bills. im not rich and every dollar counts in my house, whether its saved or payed towards bills. so yeah, one rat (however trivial it sounds) does make a difference. i clip coupons too, in case you were wondering

[R. Eventide]

I'm kind of confused. Wobbler Spiders can produce wobbler or non-wobbler offspring. Non-wobbler Spiders can produce wobbler or non-wobbler offspring. So wobbler and non-wobbler Spiders can, theoretically, produce the same percentages of wobbler and non-wobbler offspring. So what's with those breeding non-wobblers being all fine and dandy but those who breed wobblers the scum of the Earth? Without additional research, we have no idea if we can even somewhat breed out the wobble problem.

Granted, not breeding wobblers might be a step in the right direction, but I don't see why people look down their noses at those who breed wobblers. As of now, we have no evidence that non-wobblers produce more non-wobbler offspring than wobblers (that I know of, anyway--feel free to correct me).

In a similar vein, have people heard of any Woma morphs with the wobble? I have one who appears to be a minor wobbler (I've only had her for two months, though--need to give her more time). The Woma pattern is very similar to a Spider, but it's a different locus, so I don't see why a similar-appearing pattern would tend to show similar neurological problems. Besides, I'm sure there are a smattering of other wobblers who are a variety of morphs, but since the wobblers are not common with respect to other morphs, no one really pays it much attention.

(I have yet to decide whether to breed the female Woma or not. I need to see if the wobble is a persistent thing or not. Also, I may breed her to see if any of her offspring show wobbling and make my decision then.)

[hhmoore]

if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack? Steve said that normal was a PET...are you really insinuating that, because he utilizes a rack for convenience and space consideration, his pet would receive more attention and have a better life elsewhere??
i would rather someone buy it at a real discount and appreciate it to its fullest, than to have it just being maintained here.What does the price paid have to do with how much an animal is appreciated? Besides, your statement has been that while he's in his enclosure he's fine...so one could easily try to argue that life in a rack, being left alone (aside from routine care), would be better for him than being in a place where he is routinely sent flailing and twisting because somebody is "appreciating" him.
iguess i'll cut the price more cause apparantly $275 shipped for a full grown animal witha defect is unreasonable. regular breeder sized males sell for what nowadays? 400, 500, 600?
Last year, when I realized that my male spider was actually female (yeah, I know, I hadn't checked before), I did some looking. At that time, 2-4 yr old males were advertised anywhere from $400 shipped to $500 obo. I didn't buy one because I didn't find any that had the look I wanted.
if i was in it for the money don't you think i woul've just sold him as a "breeder spider" and tried to get full price. i have him priced low, if i gave him away would that appease you?For me, personally, I wouldn't care if you were asking full price...or if you gave him away. As I have already said, it's your snake - you can sell it for any reason you choose, and at whatever price you deem reasonable.
If you were to sell it as a "breeder", WITHOUT disclosing the degree of wobble, I would think negatively of you (not that THAT means a whole lot of anything). The difference is that being honest about the condition garners you at least some level of support....just because I have stated where our views differ, and why I (and many others) would not be interested in that animal, does not mean that I am "against" you.

every one knows that a ball can get to breeding size within 18 months or so. when i was keeping balls as pets, i didn't have them on a power feeding schedule.FWIW, there is no reason to have balls on a power feeding schedule just because you are breeding them now. What is the main goal of an accelerated feeding schedule, if not to get the animals to breeding size sooner? That would seem contrary to some of your other statements here.

So wobbler and non-wobbler Spiders can, theoretically, produce the same percentages of wobbler and non-wobbler offspring. I honestly don't know where the percentages would fall, but I have heard anecdotal accounts which would seem to indicate that there is some benefit to breeding solid nonwobblers...and that breeding severe wobblers produces a higher proportion of wobbling offspring. Most people that breed severe wobblers aren't really upfront about it, though....either that, or it isn't as common as some would have us think.

So what's with those breeding non-wobblers being all fine and dandy but those who breed wobblers the scum of the Earth? Without additional research, we have no idea if we can even somewhat breed out the wobble problem.
Granted, not breeding wobblers might be a step in the right direction, but I don't see why people look down their noses at those who breed wobblers.he latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).
As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged. Liken it to breeding a dog with hip dysplasia, or any breed specific problem (not the best example, I know, but it gets the point across).

[Miss Tuniwha]

he latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).
As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged..


exactly. The issue that people are having, is that not enough people are focusing on the non wobblers. It takes a LONG time to genetically strengthen a line. not just a generation or 2. So it takes a LOT of people, breeding only non wobblers, MANY MANY years, to see if it truly makes a difference in what is produced.

This is why it is a "hot" issue. because there isn't enough long term resources on it to prove it out. And with tons of new people coming to play the "breeding game", many people are cutting corners, buying the cheaper snakes, which are usually lower quality (brown pastels, kinked caramels, super wobblers, etc) which leads to more and more low grade/defective animals being pushed onto the market every year..


Many people in this industry have/are trying very hard to strengthen lines, improve them, etc.

[SPJ]

if you could find a home for for your normal, where he could receive all the attention instead of a fraction, wouldn't you rather it had that then a life in a rack?

He gets the same attention and care as any expensive morph would get.

[zacalaca]

a day is made up of 24 hours, correct? have you heard of an opportunity cost? are you saying that a person (of course this varies on the character of the person) who has one snake, cannot pay more attention to that snake than someone with hundreds to maintain? time is valuable, i keep a small collection, not because it's all i can afford, but i have work, school, and most importantly a three year old son. my collection is sized so that i don't have to take any time away from my son to clean more tubs on top of the ones i do now. i have balance this way.
i dont take offense to any of these comments, if anyone truly knew me they would know i always try to do the right thing. look at my myspace page and check out the photos, i live what i say. i am a family man, a hard worker, an animal lover, and i try to live with dignity. had i known about the spider issue- i may or may not have purchased him and his bro originally. but i did. people sell snakes on this sight. are people insinuating that all animals offered for sale are unwanted? no, they want to progress as collectors or breeders, and selling offspring is a means to do so. thats all i'm trying to do, it's not that i think ole' wobbly is useless or superflous, but i'd rather have something else. either way, i will keep the ad up and hope that the right kind of individual purchases him. i wont lose sleep over over it either.

[Lucille]

i wont lose sleep over over it either.

I don't think you will lose any sleep over it, because you still don't get it, do you, that each of us can make the hobby better or worse depending on what we do. You could have offered him up as a pet, but here is the title of your ad:

"Wobbly Spider breeder male $275"

[zacalaca]

your right, i should've titled it differently, and i might rework the ad. but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair. so are you saying that everyone who has purchased a spider knowing about the issue is wrong for doing so? or breeding them knowing even if theirs was a nonwobbler, that perhaps one of the offspring might have problems? do you own a spider? have you bred it? than you are as much a part of the problem as i am since non wobblers can produce wobblers too.

[Lucille]

your right, i should've titled it differently, and i might rework the ad. but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair. so are you saying that everyone who has purchased a spider knowing about the issue is wrong for doing so? or breeding them knowing even if theirs was a nonwobbler, that perhaps one of the offspring might have problems? do you own a spider? have you bred it? than you are as much a part of the problem as i am since non wobblers can produce wobblers too.

I don't own a spider although they are attractive. I think reworking your ad and saying something about it being pet material would make you a good guy in my eyes.
Your price is already below market, and if you are willing to find it a pet home you've done good.

Sometimes the breadth of the possibilty of a genetic flaw isn't clear when we first buy a critter. But it isn't what we do when we don't know that's important, it's the steps we take once we DO know. Good on you, for thinking about changing your ad.

[Miss Tuniwha]

but many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not-as i was just attracted to their apperance and had never even heard of kingsnake or fauna when i bought the pair.

nor did I.. until I did some research.

in general, no one should purchase any animal without looking into it. Its like getting a great dane, and being shocked when it dies at the age of 7... or a German Shepherd that gets Hip Displaysia ..

I too am new to this. But any morph I get, I look into. Like the issues of 2 cinnies possibly making a duck billed super.. It seems that pairing a cinny with a black pastel *which will still produce supers* helps to reduce those duck bill chances.

So please.. do not use the "I am new to this" line. Yes, new people make mistakes, *I know I have/do* But they have to learn, and strive to better.

I see you changed the title of your ad. Do you understand WHY? It IS your choice, and you are honest about it (which is great!).. but it seems you are still reluctant to understand WHY it is. You keep trying to defend your reasons.. This is unnecessary. We just want people *not just you* to understand why selective breeding is so important.

And I personally do have a spider.. I have not yet bred him. But. I did be very patient about purchasing him. I purchased him from someone who is well trusted, and has no noticed wobbles in his collection.

[R. Eventide]

I honestly don't know where the percentages would fall, but I have heard anecdotal accounts which would seem to indicate that there is some benefit to breeding solid nonwobblers...and that breeding severe wobblers produces a higher proportion of wobbling offspring. Most people that breed severe wobblers aren't really upfront about it, though....either that, or it isn't as common as some would have us think.

I don't either; I assume they're going to be pretty similar, but you know what happens when one assumes.... ;) I don't put much stake in "anecdotal accounts," though I wouldn't be surprised if non-wobblers produced more non-wobblers. Not meaning offense in any way, shape, or form--it's just the scientist in me. :)

The latter part of your first statement seems to indicate that people haven't been trying, or that this is a somewhat new situation (well, in the big picture, it IS relatively new - spiders have been around for, what?, maybe 10 yrs?). A lot of people care enough to look for rock solid animals for their breeding projects...and a lot of people don't. It really is too soon to say if it can be reduced through selective breeding because most people aren't doing multi-generational studies. Also, as evidenced by the animal we have been discussing, some spiders start to demonstrate the problem a couple years down the road (from what I've heard, breeding is a common trigger).

My apologies. That was not my intent. I just figured that since this has been an issue since the first spiders were produced, there would be a lot more evidence of whether this is something that can be weeded out or not. So far, on every website I've checked about this issue, all that seems to exist is anecdotal evidence.

I guess what is getting my knickers in a twist with this particular thread is the person getting pooped on for selling a wobbly Spider. I've seen Good Guy breeders sell kinked snakes before, and I don't see an issue with either as long as it is explicitly stated to a potential buyer. I almost bought a kinked Butter once because I wanted another pet ball python that wasn't a normal; I didn't want to breed them (at the time). If my Woma continues to act funny, and if I decide to breed her to see what her offspring look like, I will state explicitly in any ad for any offspring that one of the parents was a wobbler and probably shouldn't be used for breeding purposes. I don't see why selling less-than-perfect snakes to anyone who wants a non-normal-morph ball python for a pet is such a problem. (Yes, I realize that some breeders will buy them anyway because they're cheaper.)

As to the attitudes you see when this subject comes up, it boils down to what people think is best for the hobby as a whole. Many people don't like to see others cutting corners, as it reflects negatively on snake breeders as a group. Promoting the breeding of a flawed animal, just because it CAN breed is something to be discouraged. Liken it to breeding a dog with hip dysplasia, or any breed specific problem (not the best example, I know, but it gets the point across).

This is why it is a "hot" issue. because there isn't enough long term resources on it to prove it out. And with tons of new people coming to play the "breeding game", many people are cutting corners, buying the cheaper snakes, which are usually lower quality (brown pastels, kinked caramels, super wobblers, etc) which leads to more and more low grade/defective animals being pushed onto the market every year.

I agree. Unfortunately, there will always be people cutting corners. In the case of wobblers or kinked snakes, the good breeders will avoid those. I know that it's very easy to get a wobbly, kinked snake from sellers who don't advertise the snakes as such, but I guess it's their choice. People will learn to not buy from those who have been known to sell less-than-optimal specimens.

"Wobbly Spider breeder male $275"

Yes, perhaps the ad needs better word choice, but I guess when I read "breeder male," I think of the age of the snake, not that it's necessarily good for breeding. I mean, a brown pastel "breeder male" snake isn't something I'd buy to use as a breeder; I'd wait for a nice, bright yellow one. That doesn't mean the ad is misleading.

[zacalaca]

i do understand, but i was ignorant about the issues concerning spiders. i am aware or the issues concerning caramels and kinks, but i still want one. i'd wager that many of the bee's and other spider morphs on the market have some wobbling in their lineage. well, then again all do if the founding male had a wobble. they have to be bred anyhow for any research to be done, investigating the cause and genetics of the wobble. i'm not a geneticist, or do i have plans to become one. i hope the issue is figured out eventually, but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.

[Miss Tuniwha]

but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.

which is the whole POINT.. it is all the more reason for good breeders to crack down to not circulate more.


you can't just say.. oh.. too late, why bother now.. We need to crack down now.

(and again, just so you know, this is not just about you.. this is the situation in general.)

[Lucille]

knickers in a twist

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.

There IS a quite a bit of controversy about genetics, hope your lingerie drawer is well stocked :D

[zacalaca]

are you advocating a boycott on all spiders/crosses? even the non wobblers originated from a wobbler, yet they wound up on the market somehow. as long as people are aware of the issue is what's really important. i won't judge what anyone does other than me, myself, and i.

[Miss Tuniwha]

are you advocating a boycott on all spiders/crosses? even the non wobblers originated from a wobbler, yet they wound up on the market somehow.



Did they? I guess I do not know the person who owned the original ever spider morph, therefor I do not know if it was a wobbler.

Yes, I do think people need to be educated on the issues, and left to make their own choices.


MY choice.. is to never purchase from someone who breeds deformities. One eyed albinos.. kinked whozits and upside down faced whatzits. TO ME.. I can not see a reason to .. other then to make money. I have some boas that are poss het kahl albino.. if they breed.. and produce a no eyed albino.. .. they will not be bred together again.. and that eye-less guy will be freezer food.. (yup.. freezer eats them, nom nom)

And yes, I know that goes into a completely different argument regarding the rest of those albinos..

[zacalaca]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

[R. Eventide]

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.

There IS a quite a bit of controversy about genetics, hope your lingerie drawer is well stocked :D

:rofl:

Yes, this conversation is staying reasonably civilized, which I appreciate. :D

[SPJ]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

Exactly.
The problem is that some people look at it as this animal is cheap so if I breed the heck out of it, I can make a lot of money.
That's where the issue is.

IMO, it's about trying to produce quality. The best you can.

Too many people out there breed and sell spiders that look like they are having non stop seizures. Same with one-eyed and kinked animals.

If you want to see quality that went to pot, take a look at pastels. No selective breeding. Most of the ones on the market nowadays are ugly. Nothing like they were a few years ago.

[zacalaca]

Did they? I guess I do not know the person who owned the original ever spider morph, therefor I do not know if it was a wobbler.

Yes, I do think people need to be educated on the issues, and left to make their own choices.


MY choice.. is to never purchase from someone who breeds deformities. One eyed albinos.. kinked whozits and upside down faced whatzits. TO ME.. I can not see a reason to .. other then to make money. I have some boas that are poss het kahl albino.. if they breed.. and produce a no eyed albino.. .. they will not be bred together again.. and that eye-less guy will be freezer food.. (yup.. freezer eats them, nom nom)

And yes, I know that goes into a completely different argument regarding the rest of those albinos..

are you saying that the only offspring worth keeping are those that can be sold? and other people are in it for money? if the snake can eat and use the bathroom, i wouldn't kill it. only if it was destined to die a slow death, would i ever consider mercy euthanization

[hhmoore]

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.I think this has been fairly civil, as well...
Unfortunately, I think that Zacalaca is posting from the perspective of the accused, and trying to rationalize and justify. This thread was initiated well before he came along, and many of us are still dealing with the issue rather generically - with only cursory, if any, reference to his particular situation. I understand that he took some heat in his ad; but that was addressed there.

Zachary - take yourself out of the seller's role for just a moment, and reread this thread from the perspective of an uninvolved party. Consider it as background information, not as an attack against you personally.

many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not.

i do understand, but i was ignorant about the issues concerning spiders.
Then that also reflects directly on the person, or people, that sold them to you. It doesn't change the fact that you jumped in blindly, dropping around $1000 (give or take a little, depending on when in 06 you bought, and from whom) on a morph you knew nothing about. I shunned BPs for many years, and only became interested in them after seeing a bumblebee in person at a show. A very cursory search on them (in early '05) turned up volumes of discussion about the wobble factor, so I was aware of it before I decided to make a purchase. AND, the person I purchased my first spider from directly addressed the subject with me, to make sure I knew about the potential.
well, then again all do if the founding male had a wobble. they have to be bred anyhow for any research to be done, investigating the cause and genetics of the wobble. i'm not a geneticist, or do i have plans to become one. i hope the issue is figured out eventually, but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.Of course they do. Kevin (NERD) has stated that the founding male wobbled, and even that ALL spiders wobble. Of course, from what I have heard, he also inbred the heck out of the first couple generations in an attempt to find/prove a super. I was on somewhat of a sabbatical from the reptile world when that was happening, but from what I have read since, the wobble was the "dirty secret" of the spider morph for several years. It wasn't talked about openly, and that talk didn't happen until they became more accessible to hobbyists who started asking WTF??. Imagine getting into spiders earlier in the game, and dropping $5000+ on one...only to see it shaking all over the place when you unpacked it. You contact the breeder, and get told its normal - possibly even that all of them do it. No wonder the prevailing attitude was to just breed them and not worry about it - the option was to not breed it and kiss that investment goodbye.

[zacalaca]

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

[hhmoore]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.
Sure it is...but, realistically, what are the odds that that animal will find its way into the breeding pool? Unless you know the person you are giving/selling it to, you certainly can't guarantee that a person will heed your statement that it is not to be bred.
are you saying that the only offspring worth keeping are those that can be sold? and other people are in it for money? if the snake can eat and use the bathroom, i wouldn't kill it. only if it was destined to die a slow death, would i ever consider mercy euthanization
Nobody is saying that...but, as you've pointed out yourself, there are limits in terms of time, space, and money. I've got animals that I don't feel are breeding quality, but I have kept them for years...however, I can't keep every kinked or deformed baby that turns up (even if there aren't a lot of them). In simplest terms, breeder culls are a means of ensuring the strength and viability of the species/morph. Rather than risk the animal being taken by a new breeder looking for a cheap pickup, I've put some down. I've given away a handful of animals that had very minor flaws because I couldn't justify culling them...but I didn't consider them salesworthy, either (that includes.

[Lucille]

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.Yeah but you manned up and made your ad a pet ad not a breeder ad. Everyone starts somewhere, and I'm proud of you for listening and changing.

[hhmoore]

huh - I wonder what I cut off my last post, lol....

[R. Eventide]

however, I can't keep every kinked or deformed baby that turns up (even if there aren't a lot of them). In simplest terms, breeder culls are a means of ensuring the strength and viability of the species/morph. Rather than risk the animal being taken by a new breeder looking for a cheap pickup, I've put some down. I've given away a handful of animals that had very minor flaws because I couldn't justify culling them...but I didn't consider them salesworthy, either (that includes.

Alas, I cannot agree with this. It's every breeder's decision, of course, but I can't ever justify killing a creature in this manner...unless it is the humane choice (to end suffering, etc.). Ball pythons are not endangered, so there's no need to cull for the "strength and viability of the species." Some will surely want to keep up the viability of a particular morph by culling, but I don't think a pretty color/pattern is worth putting down an animal just because it's not breed-worthy.

Even if I'd randomly produce a wobbler or kinked snake from good stock, I would either keep it or sell/give it to someone for a pet. I couldn't kill a ball python just because it "might" end up back in the breeder pool. :unhappy:

[Lucille]

I haven't heard much about how it must be for the wobbler, the more severe wobblers must have a pretty miserable existence.

[hhmoore]

Alas, I cannot agree with this. It's every breeder's decision, of course, but I can't ever justify killing a creature in this manner...unless it is the humane choice (to end suffering, etc.). Ball pythons are not endangered, so there's no need to cull for the "strength and viability of the species." Some will surely want to keep up the viability of a particular morph by culling, but I don't think a pretty color/pattern is worth putting down an animal just because it's not breed-worthy.

Even if I'd randomly produce a wobbler or kinked snake from good stock, I would either keep it or sell/give it to someone for a pet. I couldn't kill a ball python just because it "might" end up back in the breeder pool. :unhappy:

I never said that culling was a requirement, nor did I suggest culling for low quality examples of morphs...for what it's worth, I didn't specify BPs, either - they make up a relatively small portion of my collection I don't know (or care) how many animals you keep or breed, but I have around 15 adults (plus a handful or two...or maybe three...of subadults) of different species that I have no intention of breeding. Sure, I could sell them - there isn't really much reason not to - except I tend to keep my animals, even after I decide not to breed them. If I come across a baby with a small notch on the spine, or a minor tail kink - yes, I give them away. If it is something more significant, however, or something I feel is genetic, I have no qualms about culling those babies. That is a decision for each individual keeper, though...and several different arguments can be employed on either side. I'm not interested in debating the pros & cons of culling - I understand why some people don't do it, and I understand why some do.

[Miss Tuniwha]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

I NEVER said it was worthless.. OWNING the animal has NEVER come into question.. BREEDING it has.. BABIES are culled because of severe issues for multiple reasons.

Most people have had pets with issues.. breeding them is another issue

[KelliH]

My guess would be that all Spiders have an issue/flaw with the cerebellum (basically they are brain damaged). The more extreme behavior that goes along with this morph seems to also be triggered by stress sometimes (breeding, shipping etc.). I think that this is just something that goes along hand in hand with this morph and is something that you have to be prepared to deal with if you are going to work with Spiders. The Spider issue is almost identical to the issue with the Enigma morph in leopard geckos. The reason I know that with the Enigmas the behavior is caused by a flaw in the cerebellum is because I sent a large group of leopard geckos consisting of Enigmas, normal looking Enigma siblings, and normal non Enigma siblings to a vet at Texas A & M, where they have been ( and are being) extensively studied. You can do a search on "Enigma behavior" on GeckoForums to find out more about the issues with them. Interestingly enough, the Enigma is also a dominant trait in which there seems to be no visible super form, like the Spider ball python. I wonder have any of the ball python breeders had any inclination to have any of the snakes studied so that they can find out what is going on biologically? Yes it can be expensive but when you are selling snakes for as much money as Spiders have sold for in the past then why not take some of those thousands you are making and put it towards finding out what is really going on with them? That's how I saw it with the Enigmas anyway.

[R. Eventide]

I never said that culling was a requirement, nor did I suggest culling for low quality examples of morphs...for what it's worth, I didn't specify BPs, either - they make up a relatively small portion of my collection I don't know (or care) how many animals you keep or breed, but I have around 15 adults (plus a handful or two...or maybe three...of subadults) of different species that I have no intention of breeding. Sure, I could sell them - there isn't really much reason not to - except I tend to keep my animals, even after I decide not to breed them. If I come across a baby with a small notch on the spine, or a minor tail kink - yes, I give them away. If it is something more significant, however, or something I feel is genetic, I have no qualms about culling those babies. That is a decision for each individual keeper, though...and several different arguments can be employed on either side. I'm not interested in debating the pros & cons of culling - I understand why some people don't do it, and I understand why some do.

I guess there's misunderstandings on all sides.

1. I was giving my opinion on culling, as evidenced by the frequent uses of "I" and the phrase, "It's every breeder's decision, of course[.]"

2. I used BPs as an example since that's what we're [mostly] discussing here.

3. Well, low-quality morphs (e.g. brown pastels) were mentioned right alongside other problems, like Spider wobbling, with respect to them returning to the gene pool and having cheap breeders contributing to "problem" snakes. So I took this to mean these were similar unwanted situations (for most of those contributing to this discussion) and compared them as such.

I think culling is relevant to this discussion. It seems to me there are three options when confronted with something akin to a wobbling Spider (not including breeding):

1. Cull them;
2. Sell them or give them away;
3. Keep them as pets.

(3) is great...but can become a problem depending on the size of one's collection. (1), I believe, is cruel and unnecessary when the snake's life and/or quality of life isn't threatened. But the problem with (2), which we have been discussing here, is that selling snakes with possible genetic problems is...well...a problem since they can go back into the breeder pool if purchased by a cheap breeder.

What should be done, then? I guess if someone doesn't feel any qualms about culling, then they will do that. But for those who don't wish to cull for something like a wobbling Spider, we need a different solution. Obviously, people get all uptight about people selling wobbly Spiders for a discounted price. How about selling wobbly Spiders for the same price as a "non-wobbly" Spider? If someone wanted a Spider morph for a pet, they'd have to spend the cost of a Spider morph. This would also keep the "cheap" breeders from purchasing wobbly Spiders just because they're cheaper and the breeder is just looking for a quick buck.

Then again, I'm unable to tell from this thread whether people are having issues with someone selling a wobbly Spider for cheap or because someone is selling a wobbly Spider at all. If the latter, then we're pretty much stuck with (1) or (3) if we can't give the snake away.

Please note, I'm using wobbly Spiders just as an example here, not a be-all and end-all issue. I'm also more than open to suggestions. Also, since there's a lot of misunderstandings/misreading going on here, I'd like to mention that none of my posts are written in anything but a neutral tone; I'm not getting irate at all. I am simply adding my two (well, maybe 8 or 10 by this point) cents to a good discussion.

[hhmoore]

I think that the options are somewhat dependent on the severity of the problem. I wouldn't cull a spider that displayed a mild tremor at feeding time...I probably wouldn't even reduce the price on it unless it was pretty darned consistent (though I would absolutely make sure it was accurately described to any potential customer). The question becomes more difficult as the display grows more severe - there is some point at which I would look at an animal and say "I can't sell this". Maybe it isn't bad enough to warrant culling it, in which case I would try to find it a nonbreeding home. How bad is bad enough to cull? That is a highly subjective question, and any person's answer is likely subject to change with the consideration of some variables. I have no qualms about culling when I consider it an appropriate option, and I've never wrestled with the decision for more than a moment or two. When it's the right choice, it's obvious enough.

[R. Eventide]

I think that the options are somewhat dependent on the severity of the problem. I wouldn't cull a spider that displayed a mild tremor at feeding time...I probably wouldn't even reduce the price on it unless it was pretty darned consistent (though I would absolutely make sure it was accurately described to any potential customer). The question becomes more difficult as the display grows more severe - there is some point at which I would look at an animal and say "I can't sell this". Maybe it isn't bad enough to warrant culling it, in which case I would try to find it a nonbreeding home. How bad is bad enough to cull? That is a highly subjective question, and any person's answer is likely subject to change with the consideration of some variables. I have no qualms about culling when I consider it an appropriate option, and I've never wrestled with the decision for more than a moment or two. When it's the right choice, it's obvious enough.

I can't argue with any of that. :) The part I put in bold is pretty much the long and the short of it.

[Tiger Lilly]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

This is true, regarding the fact that the animal is not worthless. The point is, as was mentioned somewhere above, that you can't guarantee that the person buying a 'pet quality' animal is NOT buying it as a pet but is solely looking for a cheap breeder to make money with!

Exactly.
The problem is that some people look at it as this animal is cheap so if I breed the heck out of it, I can make a lot of money.
That's where the issue is.
IMO, it's about trying to produce quality. The best you can.
Too many people out there breed and sell spiders that look like they are having non stop seizures. Same with one-eyed and kinked animals.


I couldn't agree more, especially with the QUALITY aspect!

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

And now that you know about this forum, and obviously it has helped you learn a few things...don't you think it's worth the minimum $25 PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!

I NEVER said it was worthless.. OWNING the animal has NEVER come into question.. BREEDING it has.. BABIES are culled because of severe issues for multiple reasons.
Most people have had pets with issues.. breeding them is another issue

Can't disagree with that either, but for some reason we can't get EVERYONE to take that point of view so we have nothing but quality animals on the market...go figure!

Thankfully, I have a beautiful .1 spider that I plan on breeding this season. The only 'wobble' she has, if you can even really call it that, is at feeding. You can bet that when I breed her, she is being bred to a healthy pastel that has good color and no noticeable defects...and that ANY wobblers will be culled whether it's 'freezer time' or I (ME ONLY) decide to keep them as pets. MY goal is to breed the best quality animals that I can; I'm not in it for the money. If I find that my beloved spider consistently throws serious wobblers, she will be retired at some point. I may try different males for research purposes to see if that is a correlation, but that's my personal dinker project if it comes to that.

[RJK890]

Quote TigerLilly:
And now that you know about this forum, and obviously it has helped you learn a few things...don't you think it's worth the minimum $25 PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?! How has this forum has helped Zach learn a few things, that would lead him to pay the $25. MINIMUM PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!
He posted a 600g 1. Spider that wobble's, and was totally honest and upfront about it in his ad.
His ad Hijacked, and he has basically been told that he should keep the animal as a pet only, or freeze it. That he just does not get it!... and selling it as a pet only(properly represented) at a reduced price, or even giving it away is somehow unethical because it may make its way into the breeding pool.

I am not saying that he should not become a CONTRIBUTING MEMBER and SUPPORT THE SITE. If he can afford it and feels that it is a worthy cause, he should.
I just don't think that approach is necesarry. I am sure he saw the banners and links in everybody's signature.
That approach will run more people off than it will inspire to pony up.

Here is my opinion on Spiders(again:)
ALL Spiders either have the wobble at birth, or are capable of developing it at some point in their life. Zach said his did not wobble until 2 -3 years of age.

Some Spiders wobble as hatchlings.
Some may have no sign of it when the breeder ships it out, only to arrive with a wobble triggered by shipping stress.(If it truely did not display it going into the box?)
Others may appear fine until after breeding, and then develope a wobble, triggered from the stress of breeding.

If I hatch out a train wreck, and I mean a SEVERE wobbler, that will have a poor quality of life, it will hit the freezer.
Spiders and Spider combo's that hatch out with what I would consider a minor wobble will be properly represented and sold.

IMO, anybody claiming that their Spiders are from a line of Non-Wobble Spiders is full of :censored: and misrepresenting their animals.
There is only one line of Spiders, and just because you throw the siblings that display the wobble as hatchlings in the freezer does not mean it is a wobble free line of Spiders. The others may develope it later on in life.

[hhmoore]

And that is why internet forums are so much fun - because not only do people all have their own opinions, and their own ways of expressing them...but we also interpret things we read differently, and have different responses.

[Tiger Lilly]

And that is why internet forums are so much fun - because not only do people all have their own opinions, and their own ways of expressing them...but we also interpret things we read differently, and have different responses.

AMEN to that!

In case it was missed...this is why I commented about being a contributor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zacalaca:
i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

Obviously, he HAS learned SOMETHING, and my interpretation of it was that it was something good...from his experience (good or bad) relating to his sale ad, as well as this thread.

MY APOLOGIES IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE BY AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO DRUM UP SUPPORT FOR THE BOI/FAUNACLASSIFIEDS...
I take no responsibility, however, if you interpret my words in any manner other than which they were intended!

[RJK890]

MY APOLOGIES IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE BY AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO DRUM UP SUPPORT FOR THE BOI/FAUNACLASSIFIEDS...
I take no responsibility, however, if you interpret my words in any manner other than which they were intended!
LOL, That is a great disclaimer Troi.

[Lucille]

How has this forum has helped Zach learn a few things, that would lead him to pay the $25. MINIMUM PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!


I do not think the management wants us to (as long as we are decent) change up the truth or our opinions in order to attract cash. We would be post whores then.

I said what I thought; others may differ. As long as everyone is respectful of one another, once everyone has their say, onlookers might have a good basis for their opinions by reading what has been said and deciding what they think.

[Tiger Lilly]

Thanks, Rob...I may have to start using that as my signature! (Peace)

[Seamus Haley]

I personally think there should be a complete halt to the production of spiders.

Wobbling is a flaw. While the quality of life question for existing animals that exhibit the trait is one of degrees, where a minor issue may not be seen as negatively impacting the individual animals based on the degree of expression... it's a flaw. It's not a cute little quirk or something that should be ignored or dismissed as inconsequential. As a trait, it's bad.

The potential to produce animals who exhibit the trait to such a degree that the quality of life is impacted from animals where the trait sees a very minor expression, or even appears totally absent, should be looked at as further evidence that the reproduction of the line carries with it the inherent possibility- and even probability- of producing specimins who are expressing the trait to such a degree as to warrant culling.

I feel that a high probability of producing an animal with a quality of life issue that warrants culling is indicative of a breeding that never should have occurred to begin with.

I will acknowledge that the exact reason behind the trait and the method of genetic transmission are currently largely unknown. If I cared more positively about morphs, I'd support the idea of competent, educated individuals working with a closed collection attempting to map the transmission and to examine the variables and possible physiological reasons behind the wobbling in an effort to understand and eradicate it. However, given that nobody actually needs this particular genotypical variation, I personally don't see it as remotely worth the effort or time that would need to be expended in order to identify actual answers.

I support the idea of universal culling. Or at the very least a total and uniform cessation of all breeding efforts associated with the morph. There are well intentioned people trying to line breed for minimal wobbling or using animals where the wobbling is currently absent... while I acknowledge that it's their time and work to invest where they want, I see it as being a waste.

Furthermore, their continued interest and their optimistic hope that the morph is salvageable only promotes the idea that there might be some future point devoid of wobbling. It keeps public interest up, which in turn allows for the continued production of wobblers by unscrupulous or uncaring individuals. It's only once a universal acknowledgment of the negative aspects of the morph occurs that the market for the morph will disappear and production will cease.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Of course they do. Kevin (NERD) has stated that the founding male wobbled, and even that ALL spiders wobble. Of course, from what I have heard, he also inbred the heck out of the first couple generations in an attempt to find/prove a super. I was on somewhat of a sabbatical from the reptile world when that was happening, but from what I have read since, the wobble was the "dirty secret" of the spider morph for several years. It wasn't talked about openly, and that talk didn't happen until they became more accessible to hobbyists who started asking WTF??. Imagine getting into spiders earlier in the game, and dropping $5000+ on one...only to see it shaking all over the place when you unpacked it. You contact the breeder, and get told its normal - possibly even that all of them do it. No wonder the prevailing attitude was to just breed them and not worry about it - the option was to not breed it and kiss that investment goodbye.

This bothers me. This bothers me a lot.

Did no one stand up to him and say, WTF are you doing breeding and selling something with a defect? Has he never been taken to task for the irresponsibility? Those animals should have never been sold, especially for the sum he was asking. A neurological defect isn't "normal." I don't care who says or how many times...It's not...

I'll be honest and say I never looked that deeply into Spider history...But I did make a point to locate one that didn't wobble because I was aware of the problem. I didn't know that the founding snake was a wobbler and NERD knowingly bred the defect.

Was this a case of, "well it's NERD...Can't bring them to task...My as well make back my investment back and then some..."

[hhmoore]

I can't answer those questions, Steph....the BP morph craze happened while I was taking a few years off from things (keeping just a few favorite pets). As mentioned though, some of that post you quoted was from things I had read over the years since I became interested in bumblebees...so I can't guarantee that they are 100% accurate. (But some of the sources were people I would be inclined to believe.) While having a past acquaintance with Kevin, I hadn't spoken with him in at least 8 yrs when I found myself interested. I sure wasn't going to call him up and try to get him to remember me.

[David Reid]

Here is my take:

Spiders as a single morph are very attractive animals. As combo morphs, they produce amazing looking crosses. In my opinion, some of the nicest crosses out there involve the Spider.

I was late getting into the Spider morph, and finally aquired one female in a trade in 06. I requested one that did not wobble, and that is what I got. The original female I got in 06 did not wobble as a baby, but as she grew, she started to "bob" her head up and down when feeding. She is a calm animal still, only bobbing a bit when she is hunting her rat down.

In 2008, when she was 1800 grams, I bred her to my Sulfur Mojave male. I got a Spider, Sulfur Spider, and what I believe is a Sulfur Mojave Spider. I kept the two crosses. As babies, they showed ZERO signs of wobbling. As yearlings, they do the head bob thing the mom does. They do not tie themselves in knots, and when you hold them, they are normal as can be. When they think they are getting food, the do the head bob.

I have heard some people say the Spiders are just like the Caramels and Super Womas, and I do not see it that way. I would never buy, nor sell a Kinked Caramel, but I have no problems breeding the Spiders. I honestly think all Spiders exhibit the wobble or bob to a certain extent. I think it is in their genetic code, and doubt it will ever be bred out. So, if you do not like Spiders, don't buy them. If you are a savvy buyer, and want a Spider, ask the breeder for a non wobbler, or see them in person before buying.

To me, my Sulfur Spider is a gorgeous animal, and calm, and tame when being held. So she gets really excited when she eats, so do I:)

Dave