Pre-selling animals before hatching them, good business?

[Bill & Amy]

What does everyone think of pre-selling animals before they hatch? Good business? High risk?

[SPJ]

I don't care for it especially when you need to put a large deposit down like some of the ads I have seen ask for (50% down).
I can see getting on a waiting list for offspring though but you should not have to pay anything up front.

Too risky to the buyer. You send the money and the eggs go bad or the wrong sex hatches and you have to hope that the seller has not spent the money you gave to him upfront.

As a seller, you have to worry about selling too many and having to issue refunds.

Either scenario is not where I would like to find myself.

[Wolfy-hound]

I don't like to do it from me breeding standpoint as I feel it's bad juju for getting good eggs and hatch rates. Just my opinion and paranoria speaking there.

[jglass38]

Not for me. I won't take deposits until after babies have hatched.

[hhmoore]

ditto - regardless of the species

[WebSlave]

Guess I'll buck the trend here......

I do it all the time. Matter of fact, unless a person puts a 20 percent deposit down on the animals they want, they don't even get on the waiting list. Had my fill years ago of people saying they wanted something, then when I call them when they are ready to go, they either changed their mind or got it somewhere else beforehand. Often I wouldn't even get a return call or email when I contacted them about their orders.... So I just got tired of wasting my time on that sort of thing. I figure it is pretty common for people to tell several breeders they want something, and first one to deliver gets their business. Good for them, and tough luck for the other breeders, I guess. So if you want a commitment out of me, you have to give me a commitment as well. Fair is fair, I believe.

Last several years I held a special pre-hatching sale whereby I took orders on animals being sold right out of the egg for 50 percent off of my list prices. No guarantees beyond life delivery, and the catch was the order needed to be pre-paid IN FULL. This worked very well for all involved as far as I know. And there were VERY few, if any, that I let down by not being able to deliver what they wanted. There were a couple of people who were disappointed when a couple of their animals wouldn't feed for them, but that was the risk that came with the greatly reduced pricing. "Right out of the egg" means what it says.

[Cat_72]

I guess I can see it a little more when it's someone who has a history and reputation such as yours, Rich....you've been in this for how long, and I don't believe you'd grab my money and run. I also don't think you'd be foolish enough to take more deposits than you will have the ability to fill.

However, there are very few people I would trust to do it, and I don't think it's a safe option for the average person. Too many fly-by-night folks around....and I don't believe in counting my chickens (or anything else) before they hatch.

[jglass38]

Last several years I held a special pre-hatching sale whereby I took orders on animals being sold right out of the egg for 50 percent off of my list prices. No guarantees beyond life delivery, and the catch was the order needed to be pre-paid IN FULL. This worked very well for all involved as far as I know. And there were VERY few, if any, that I let down by not being able to deliver what they wanted. There were a couple of people who were disappointed when a couple of their animals wouldn't feed for them, but that was the risk that came with the greatly reduced pricing. "Right out of the egg" means what it says.

Nothing like valuing sales over the life of the animals. I would never sell an animal that hadn't shed and eaten a few meals. Just my opinion though...
:thumbsup:

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I do not take ANY money on ANYTHING unless I already have it, nor would I pay for something that doesn't exist yet.

[Clay Davenport]

The big difference between Rich taking deposits on animals that haven't hatched yet and the vast majority of everyone else is not many people produce 8 thousand hatchlings per year, let alone that many of one species.
It's unlikely that he won't be able to fill an order barring a natural disaster or something.

For the remainder of breeders, I don't like pre-selling nor do I do it. I've had people offer a deposit on things during the breeding season before I even knew if I'd get eggs of that morph. I always decline and tell them I prefer to wait and see what I have. For one thing I don't want the aggravation of having to keep track of people's money for several months when the possibility of a refund being required exists if I don't produce what they reserved.

There's usually one of a few factors which cause sellers to presell.
1. They need money now, not in 4 or 5 months. This means your deposit will most likely be spent before the breeder has hatched the eggs.
2. They want to lock in a higher price to hedge against a drop in value for the season. We speculate regularly, but we never know exactly what something will sell for until the babies start being released to the market.
3. They want to lock in a buyer immediately before they have a few months to think it over or perhaps find another breeder.

My stance is if I can sell it now I can sell it after it's hatched, if not to the person inquiring today, then to someone else.
Preselling isn't the only sales tactic that irritates me, there's a lot of people in the snake business that would make fine car salesmen.
The Ebay grab bag style of selling CH balls chaps my ass too, but I suppose that's a topic for another thread.

[Bill & Amy]

I agree with everyone here on what has been said so far. I also agree that Rich is a better position to do what he does. I can mainly only talk about the ball python side of things. I won't put money down on any ball morph that I can't see first. We all know there is a wide variety of "grades" on any certain morph. The last thing I want is to commit to a purchase to get a "ugly duckling". Like others have said, what if they don't hatch one and have already spent the money.

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Last several years I held a special pre-hatching sale whereby I took orders on animals being sold right out of the egg for 50 percent off of my list prices. No guarantees beyond life delivery, and the catch was the order needed to be pre-paid IN FULL. This worked very well for all involved as far as I know. And there were VERY few, if any, that I let down by not being able to deliver what they wanted. There were a couple of people who were disappointed when a couple of their animals wouldn't feed for them, but that was the risk that came with the greatly reduced pricing. "Right out of the egg" means what it says.

The very first year Rich did this (crossing my fingers to see it again this year...hint, hint) I was one of the few that he couldn't fill one of the pairs I had ordered...I think I wanted a Charcoal het Amel pair or something...So instead of sending that, he sent an actual Blizzard pair. Nothing better then opening the box and seeing an upgrade! :thumbsup: I've had maybe 1 or 2 hatchings not feed from the "out of the egg" sale, which weighing in the savings I received at purchase isn't that huge of a financial loss.

Anyway, IMO on a smaller scale I don't believe doing pre-sales is a good idea...I let all of my customers know what I'm expecting, but I do not accept money until I am ready to let them go.

[Dr Owens]

Nothing like valuing sales over the life of the animals. I would never sell an animal that hadn't shed and eaten a few meals. Just my opinion though...
:thumbsup:Jamie,
You were fairly quick to respond in a condecending manner towards Rich's post, so I'm curious...how many animals will you be producing/selling this year?

[WestExHerps]

I weighed the pros and cons last year, but pre-selling seems to be too much of a headache, way too much paper work for me to put up with. I can understand Rich doing this because of the sheer volume, but at this point I don't have the same problem. However, I will do an out of the egg sale with some of my more normal morphs in corns, but I only post this when the eggs start hatching.

[Dr Owens]

Jamie,
You sent me a PM stating that you have no intention on getting into a debate on this thread...I can see why you wouldn't want to do that.

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to get into a debate publically seeing as how you, who I'm not sure has really produced much of anything, seem to think that you are somehow qualified to take shots at one of the largest producers of corn snakes in the world for his business/husbandry practices. You would be arguing from a position of gross ignorance at best. :rolleyes:

[jglass38]

Jamie,
You sent me a PM stating that you have no intention on getting into a debate on this thread...I can see why you wouldn't want to do that.

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to get into a debate publically seeing as how you, who I'm not sure has really produced much of anything, seem to think that you are somehow qualified to take shots at one of the largest producers of corn snakes in the world for his business/husbandry practices. You would be arguing from a position of gross ignorance at best. :rolleyes:

Owens,

Just drop it. I told you that I had a discussion with Rich and I am not going to get into it.

I had an opinion, and I stated it. I didn't talk about his business or husbandry practices. I certainly don't feel the need to explain myself to you.

Have a great one, pal! :ack2:

[Dr Owens]

Owens,

Just drop it. I told you that I had a discussion with Rich and I am not going to get into it.

I had an opinion, and I stated it. I didn't talk about his business or husbandry practices. I certainly don't feel the need to explain myself to you.
Actually, what you said was this:
Nothing like valuing sales over the life of the animals. I would never sell an animal that hadn't shed and eaten a few meals. Just my opinion though...
:thumbsup:Which was nothing more than an attempt to make him look bad by implying that Rich valued sales over the lives of his animals. Not to mention your implication that you somehow held the moral high ground because you "would never sell an animal that hadn't shed and eaten a few meals."

Yes, you have your opinion. However, your opinion is uninformed at best. You would do well to recognize that.

Like I said, I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to get into it publicly. It would probably end up becoming pretty embarrassing for you. I know that I would be embarrassed if someone showed my ignorance on a subject after I had already stated my opinion strongly. Perhaps you should consider that in the future before you sling your condescending remarks. ;)

[jglass38]

Actually, what you said was this:
Which was nothing more than an attempt to make him look bad by implying that Rich valued sales over the lives of his animals. Not to mention your implication that you somehow held the moral high ground because you "would never sell an animal that hadn't shed and eaten a few meals."

Yes, you have your opinion. However, your opinion is uninformed at best. You would do well to recognize that.

Like I said, I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to get into it publicly. It would probably end up becoming pretty embarrassing for you. I know that I would be embarrassed if someone showed my ignorance on a subject after I had already stated my opinion strongly. Perhaps you should consider that in the future before you sling your condescending remarks. ;)

As usual, you are always right. :rolleyes: Must be all those certificates on your wall. :thumbsup:

[Dr Owens]

As usual, you are always right. :rolleyes: Must be all those certificates on your wall. :thumbsup:Jamie,
You can make all of the catty little comments you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

And yes, my walls are very full...but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[jglass38]

Jamie,
You can make all of the catty little comments you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

And yes, my walls are very full...but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I was not wrong. I stated my opinion. I don't believe in selling animals right out of the egg. How many animals I have produced is of no bearing on my opinions or feelings on the subject. I believe that it increases the chance of the animal dying as a great deal of people who purchase snakes have no clue how to get a non feeding animal to eat. Rich explained his side of why he does it and we had a pleasant conversation. I saw his points and we left it at that. I hope this is satisfactory to you. If it isn't, too damn bad.
:thumbsup:

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Well, the interaction between you two as certainly been a good read. :)

Jamie, I do agree with Owens here. You comment was dripping with sarcasm and implication. Just because you had a "pleasant conversation" privately with Rich doesn't change what you publicly said. Your jab (whether intentional or not) was noted by many.

Rich produces amazing animals and has done a lot for the Cornsnake community. Whether you agree with his decisions regarding this forum or not, he deserves respect for what he has done with the species.

I think that's about all I have to say... :thumbsup:

[jglass38]

Well, the interaction between you two as certainly been a good read. :)

Jamie, I do agree with Owens here. You comment was dripping with sarcasm and implication. Just because you had a "pleasant conversation" privately with Rich doesn't change what you publicly said. Your jab (whether intentional or not) was noted by many.

Rich produces amazing animals and has done a lot for the Cornsnake community. Whether you agree with his decisions regarding this forum or not, he deserves respect for what he has done with the species.

I think that's about all I have to say... :thumbsup:

Noted. Thanks for the comments! They are appreciated when they are eloquently put like that.

[Dr Owens]

How many animals I have produced is of no bearing on my opinions or feelings on the subject. I disagree. It establishes your level of experience (which is negligible compared to Rich). Experience = Knowledge. Experience (in this instance at least) is the difference between an informed, and an uninformed opinion.

Jamie, you need to understand something...I didn't call you out because I disagreed with your opinion. I called you out because you stated you opinion in such a way as to be insulting to Rich. Therein lies the problem. Your opinion on how to do things is fine for a someone who produces a few animals a year, but it is completely misinformed, and downright ignorant to think that someone who produces THOUSANDS of animals a year is going to do things the same way that you do. In light of that fact, for you to be condescending towards Rich for not doing things your way reeks of unfounded arrogance.

[jglass38]

I disagree. It establishes your level of experience (which is negligible compared to Rich). Experience = Knowledge. Experience (in this instance at least) is the difference between an informed, and an uninformed opinion.

Jamie, you need to understand something...I didn't call you out because I disagreed with your opinion. I called you out because you stated you opinion in such a way as to be insulting to Rich. Therein lies the problem. Your opinion on how to do things is fine for a someone who produces a few animals a year, but it is completely misinformed, and downright ignorant to think that someone who produces THOUSANDS of animals a year is going to do things the same way that you do. In light of that fact, for you to be condescending towards Rich for not doing things your way reeks of unfounded arrogance.

Are you still talking? Let it go already...

[Dr Owens]

Are you still talking? Let it go already...I am sure that you would love for me to let it go. However, let's bear in mind that it was you who came back and tried to present an argument for why you were justified in what you said to Rich. I simply responded and pointed out that you were not at all justified...not in the least. :shootfoot

I'll tell you what...answer the original question, and I'll let it go. Or would that be a bit embarrassing for you? You certainly seem anxious to avoid that question. ;)

[WebSlave]

Rather than trying to recreate the wheel in context of my discussion privately with Jamie, I will just cut and paste my side of the conversation here, in order that I sent them.

Now, to address that "this instance", it's called "giving customers what they want." A LOT of people requested that I offer such deals to them, so that's what I did. And nearly all of them are tickled pink about it. So who are YOU to tell ME how to run my business? How is selling an animal feeding any less of a commodity than selling one right out of the egg? It's EXACTLY the same thing, but you are choosing the definition of the term based on your own heavily biased whim. Realistically, you are only using this as another launching platform for yet another snipe at me.

It works for me and my customers, so that is REALLY all that matters. SATISFIED, REPEAT customers is the real measure of how well that offering works. And yes, I have people contacting me nearly DAILY about doing the same thing this year.

I believe you are wrong about this because you don't understand the circumstances. When you produce 6,000 or so baby snakes, you really don't have time to spend on problem feeders. So any of the minority animals that are reluctant to feed have a much better chance of surviving with someone who has more time to put into them. Some with a much lesser number of animals will have a corresponding larger amount of time to put into each individual animal. I have to prioritize my time to the "keepers" I produce and try to sell off as much as I can as quickly as I can to keep from getting completely overwhelmed by the workload.

Fortunately the greater majority of cornsnakes will readily feed of their own volition, but yes, there are some that will require some coaxing. So people buying them right out of the egg tend to get animals that are mostly going to feed anyway for them. And that certainly has been mostly the case.

ALL of the cheap stuff (normals, amels, hypos, etc.) is bulked out immediately upon hatching at $10 a head just to get rid of them. The more moderately priced stuff will often be bought up by people requesting the "right out of the egg" price. They certainly have the option to get ones feeding with a guarantee, but it is THEIR decision to buy what they want. I just make the offer to them along with sufficient notice about what they are actually buying. The higher dollar stuff rarely sells "right out of the egg" because people want a guarantee along with that purchase.

In years past I used to take higher dollar non-feeders to shows and sell them at $10 a head. People were ecstatic to get rather higher dollar corns at that price and willing to take the risk with them. And yes, most did get them feeding. I STILL get people asking me for deals like that. I had already expended my own efforts on those animals, so it was a last ditch effort for them. Otherwise they were either going to die, or be released here around my place to take their chances with mother nature.

How many animals do you produce in a year, just out of curiosity? Maybe you just don't understand my perspective because your situation is completely different. I HAVE to produce quantities because I am playing the odds. To get a 1 in 1,000 animal, you generally HAVE to produce the 1,000 animals. That is the way you play the odds, and I have found it a pretty successful way to do so. YOUR mileage simply might vary in how you run YOUR business.

As for the issue with the animals, heck, I've been doing SerpenCo since 1985 and selling animals informally since around 1979. I just came to the conclusion that you really can't control the ultimate destination of your animals, no matter how hard you try. All you can do is try to do the best you can with your animals and take steps to make certain that you don't kill them all trying to save them all. I have had recurring nightmares for DECADES where I go into my snake room and discover a room that I had FORGOTTEN about. Upon opening the door I discover cage after cage of dead and dessicated snakes within them. I think my subconscious is just trying to tell me something.

So this plan of mine to sell animals right out of the egg was a BIG help for me to keep my head above water. To do what I want to do, I have to produce LOTS of animals. Most are for sale, but each one of those takes time from me that needs to be better spent taking care of the rest of the animals. And I sincerely doubt that anyone can make an argument that nothing moves animals better and faster than attractive prices.

So yeah, I do what works for me, and so far it has benefited not only me, but those people buying from me in that manner. Will some of those animals die? Why certainly! But probably a whole lot less than if I tried to hang onto them myself to try to take care of them. Early on I actually tried to do that. But when you have 300 problem snakes facing you, plus all the additional workload of those newly hatched babies that want to feed voluntarily, it's pretty easy to feel yourself slipping into a nervous breakdown.

So I guess what this is all boiling down to Jamie, is my asking you to simply take a look at things from someone else's shoes other than your own. I know I have had to be much more cognizant of that problem in my own self since running this site, and have seen this many times with other people falling into the same hole I have been in myself here and there.

I am NOT always right about things. YOU are not always right about things. My way is not the best way for everyone. YOUR way is not the best for everyone. And certainly neither will understand the other's side of things if they don't even know it is completely different from their own.

Actually the conversation was not at all antagonistic and went better than I thought it would. Some of it was in reference to my job here as WebSlave, and that issue was addressed as well.

Basically I think the issue is WHY does someone choose to either require deposits on pre-sales as a seller, or someone wanting to buy something want to send off a deposit to reserve something they want. Quite simply, I believe this is supply and demand fully at work. If the supply is limited, you may want to reserve those animals before someone else buys them. As a seller, you simply decide to accept those deposits or not depending on how you want to handle the selling of your animals. A lot revolves around your own confidence in what you expect to produce a given year. That is why I am always VERY late in putting out my current price list. I like to wait until the eggs are actually laid, and I can look at what I have incubating and more accurately predict what I can expect to sell. Not everyone does it that way, of course. Some make pie in the sky predictions way before the males and female begin playing together.

From a buyer's perspective, it depends on what you are interested in buying. If everyone has them and there is little problem they all will get sold out before you make your purchase, then don't engage in placing a reservation. But if there is a chance you may come up empty handed this year and have to wait an entire nother year, well, maybe it would be in your best interests to reserve those animals rather than running the risk of being dissappointed. Yes, there IS a limited number of many things produced every year. It's your choice in how you handle this situation. From a seller's perspective, I do what has proven to work well for me.

[jglass38]

I am sure that you would love for me to let it go. However, let's bear in mind that it was you who came back and tried to present an argument for why you were justified in what you said to Rich. I simply responded and pointed out that you were not at all justified...not in the least. :shootfoot

I'll tell you what...answer the original question, and I'll let it go. Or would that be a bit embarrassing for you? You certainly seem anxious to avoid that question. ;)

Lets take my one and only comment that has any bearing on this now ridiculous thread.

"Nothing like valuing sales over the life of the animals."

In the Ball Python world (and I admittedly know nothing about Corns) there are a lot of scumbags out there who value the dollar above all. They sell animals "just out of the egg" and call it a lottery or a chance to find something cool in unopened bags. These animals have not eaten and in the wrong hands, may never eat. My comment, while still my opinion reflected me not agreeing with the policy of selling snakes "just out of the egg" that had not eaten a meal. Rich explained his reasoning for doing it and how it relates to the Corn market. I apologize to Rich for any implication that may have been inferred from my comments. But I don't apologize for expressing my opinion as it relates to the animal trade as a whole.

Owens, I am thrilled that you value my opinion so much to keep harping on it. However, I am done taking your bait. Go fishing elsewhere. I am pretty sure Rich doesn't need you fighting his battles. Have a good one and don't forget to tip your proctologist!
:eek:

[jglass38]

Rather than trying to recreate the wheel in context of my discussion privately with Jamie, I will just cut and paste my side of the conversation here, in order that I sent them.







Actually the conversation was not at all antagonistic and went better than I thought it would. Some of it was in reference to my job here as WebSlave, and that issue was addressed as well.

Basically I think the issue is WHY does someone choose to either require deposits on pre-sales as a seller, or someone wanting to buy something want to send off a deposit to reserve something they want. Quite simply, I believe this is supply and demand fully at work. If the supply is limited, you may want to reserve those animals before someone else buys them. As a seller, you simply decide to accept those deposits or not depending on how you want to handle the selling of your animals. A lot revolves around your own confidence in what you expect to produce a given year. That is why I am always VERY late in putting out my current price list. I like to wait until the eggs are actually laid, and I can look at what I have incubating and more accurately predict what I can expect to sell. Not everyone does it that way, of course. Some make pie in the sky predictions way before the males and female begin playing together.

From a buyer's perspective, it depends on what you are interested in buying. If everyone has them and there is little problem they all will get sold out before you make your purchase, then don't engage in placing a reservation. But if there is a chance you may come up empty handed this year and have to wait an entire nother year, well, maybe it would be in your best interests to reserve those animals rather than running the risk of being dissappointed. Yes, there IS a limited number of many things produced every year. It's your choice in how you handle this situation. From a seller's perspective, I do what has proven to work well for me.

Rich,

Thanks for posting that as it helps to better explain your side so the folks interested in the topic as it was started gain the same knowledge I did in the private conversation.

Jamie

[Dr Owens]

In the Ball Python world (and I admittedly know nothing about Corns) there are a lot of scumbags out there who value the dollar above all. They sell animals "just out of the egg" and call it a lottery or a chance to find something cool in unopened bags. These animals have not eaten and in the wrong hands, may never eat. My comment, while still my opinion reflected me not agreeing with the policy of selling snakes "just out of the egg" that had not eaten a meal. Rich explained his reasoning for doing it and how it relates to the Corn market. I apologize to Rich for any implication that may have been inferred from my comments. But I don't apologize for expressing my opinion as it relates to the animal trade as a whole.
That is nice that you would choose to apologize to Rich, but trying spin things in order to make it look like you were addressing the industry as a whole rather than Rich directly is pretty weak.


Owens, I am thrilled that you value my opinion so much to keep harping on it. However, I am done taking your bait. Go fishing elsewhere.
Uhhhh...Jamie, I'm not baiting you. I am asking you to take responsibility for your words. I have simply tried to show here just exactly how far out of line you were. You (who apparently hasn't produced anything yourself), being condescending towards someone who has so much more experience than you that it can't even be measured. I took issue with that.


I am pretty sure Rich doesn't need you fighting his battles.
Yeah...there's no doubt in my mind about that. I'm not "fighting his battles." I am simply making my opinion about what you had to say known. Certainly you wouldn't fault me for wanting to state my opinion? After all, that was your initial defense of your post. ;)


Have a good one and don't forget to tip your proctologist!
:eek:Yeah...not really sure what that's supposed to mean. Perhaps you have a subconscious reason for making a backhanded anal reference? Or perhaps it wasn't subconscious at all...I can only speculate...

Jamie, I know that you would like to continue to try to get one last dig in, in order to try to make yourself look a little better. Just so you know, eventually I will tire of you, but for now I will continue to enjoy responding to your weak little attempts to "get that last dig." :)

[jglass38]

Owens, I couldn't care less what you think of me. This IS my last post but you continue to blather on about nothing for as long as your little heart desires.

[Dr Owens]

Owens, I couldn't care less what you think of me. This IS my last post but you continue to blather on about nothing for as long as your little heart desires.At this point I'm just continuing to respond to you Jamie...just responding to you. I guess you missed that part. (Not that I'm suprised.) :rolleyes:

For the record, I have never once stated my opinion of you. I have however, stated my opinion of the fact that you, who hasn't produced anything, has absolutely zero ground upon which to stand in judgement of someone like Rich for his methods and practices. Let's try not to miss the point. ;)

[Wilomn]

At this point I'm just continuing to respond to you Jamie...just responding to you. I guess you missed that part. (Not that I'm suprised.) :rolleyes:

For the record, I have never once stated my opinion of you. I have however, stated my opinion of the fact that you, who hasn't produced anything, has absolutely zero ground upon which to stand in judgement of someone like Rich for his methods and practices. Let's try not to miss the point. ;)
Hey Jay, would you nudge neil "the liar" gubitz and ask him to pass me one of the popscicles? It seems that hell has indeed frozen over, yet again, and I am in complete agreement with you.

What IS the world coming to?

[Dr Owens]

Hey Jay, would you nudge neil "the liar" gubitz and ask him to pass me one of the popscicles? It seems that hell has indeed frozen over, yet again, and I am in complete agreement with you.

What IS the world coming to?LOL! Surely this must be a sign of the now pending apocalypse. ;) :D

Thanks Wes. :)

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Gee, it would have been nice for this thread to have stayed on topic instead of turning into yet another expose' of private agendas. I think it would have been a great topic to discuss on a professionals and mature level. Oh well...

[Stardust]

I personally would not pre-sell or pre-buy.
It is all a personal choice for everyone. Triple moons stated she was on the end that didn't get what she ordered but for her got something better, an upgrade, I believe she said. I have bought from Rich and would do so in the future, in this particular case it is not that I do not trust him because I do, it is that when I buy an animal I have a specific (whether be color, size, age ect) one or two in mind and even an upgrade would be a let down for me personally.
I would rather see what the animal looks like and if I am in the market. If I have to pay just a bit more for an animal already born so be it, I just like to know exactly what I am getting.

[KathyLove]

Business in the US is all about choice - LOTS of choices! And I like it that way!

In most cases, you can choose to pay a little or a lot for most reptiles, or anything else you want, and can get the level of service and quality that you desire or need.

Although I don't sell right out of the egg because I don't produce 6,000 babies (thank goodness!!), I still produce enough that I will offer customers deals on those babies that don't immediately feed well for me. The surprising thing is that even my novice customers often have great luck with non-feeders, if they are willing to spend time and effort (time that I don't want to spend myself) and take directions from me. Sometimes I get a call the following week wondering why they were sold as non-feeders. Just needed a change of venue, I guess. It is a win/win deal for everyone, just as right out of the egg sales are a win/win for everyone, as long as they bother to read the details of the sale.

As far as pre-sales, I take 25% deposits (non-refundable if I produce the animals ordered) for SERIOUS buyers. My corns are not so expensive that I can't afford to refund if it doesn't work out. I can't consider anyone serious if they don't send a deposit, because, as Rich said, there is no commitment whatsoever without a deposit.

However, if I should start producing more expensive animals, such as some of the python morphs, I will not take more than $100 for deposit on any single animal. That is enough to show commitment, but not so much that I can't refund it if things don't go as expected. I sure would hate to have to refund 25% of some multi thousand dollar animals!

I rarely have ever sent a deposit to anyone to buy something. There are only a few breeders I would consider doing that with. Rich is certainly one of those few. When it is less than a $100 per animal deposit, it is not a great hardship to have money out, and shows that you are serious. But if somebody wanted more than that for an expensive animal's deposit, I would probably consider it too risky and / or just too much money to have sitting out on hold someplace.

[romad119]

In egg, non feeding, feeding on xyz, etc. If it is represented correctly then I don't see any problems with it. The seller is stating accurately what they have and the potential buyer gets to make their decision.

Now potential problems always pop up often but its due to misrepresentation from the seller in a negative way. That's a whole different matter.

The risk and reward is what anyone should weigh and most responses have focused on that aspect of it. For some money is less of an issue and they can wait for a higher price for guaranteed feeders. Some may wait because they are unsure of their skills to get them to start eating and so on.

I wouldn't pre-sell or pre-pay though I view deposits as something I would do and have done. But I don't atatck those who do.