Bad Guy Beware of Jerry Kruse

[Focal]

Sorry, maybe 'researched' was a better word.

 

[daksi1974]

Wow! that took a long while to read. Partial success for Stu with the refund, total (present and futre customers) loss for Jerry.

 

[AlexBurgos]

Thanks for today's post Mitch. That was an eye opening post. I don't keep Zonatas but we Boa keepers have our share of dreadful diseases that destroy collections as well. I happen to know Jerry personally and have always considered him a straight shooter. I say this in past tense not because that has changed but he an I have not communicated for much over a decade at least. I hope this all resolves itself and that things work out for all involved.

 

[JerryKruse]

The little dig you threw in there is pretty demonstrative of how passive-aggressive you can be. No worries, feelings' mutual. But for the sake of "zonata disease", and since this was really your intention to write another short story, you have a new stage here -- why not begin a new study on it? You have the means in various ways to do just that. I mean, with the Servino lab and your pull at U. Santa Cruz, why not? It just might be your biggest thing yet Mitch. How hard could it be? Since you think it may be such a pervasive, possible innate pathogen this might be a huge project for you. Maybe you're right (well, i know for a fact that you KNOW you're right) -- it sure would bring a whole new, and productive (as opposed to driveling here) means of research that could change keeping zonata for the next generation. After all, many of us have children (you and me included) and I'm sure they would want to possibly enjoy such creatures in their time. And I've seen how you've had Calvin helping you pack up all those snakes in boxes, exposing him to what we all enjoy -- so maybe this is indeed a new anvenue for you that could help us all from a science perspective.

 

[StuTennyson]

Mitch-very intersting post. Thanks for all your time and thought on this one.

Jerry-After thinking things over I'm going to send all six back to you Monday unless you have any objection. I have several reasons for this. One is to show good faith but also to save on shipping twice. I also don't want these in my collection. If you are wanting to have a resonable shot at restoring these snakes then the sooner you get them back the better. After receiving half the refund I feel confident the rest will be sent as agreed.

 

[JerryKruse]

Whatever you prefer Stu. And, as you should feel confident. A slight delay doesn't denote that it's not going to happen. =) Then again, you felt they were on the mend so feeling confident might be a figment of the imagination given how I've lied and dodged you in deciding whether or not I'm going to screw you. (Figured I'd throw that one in there to save the jacka$$e$ from saying it.)

 

[Mitchell Mulks]

For zonata disease to be properly studied it would require the attention of an infectious disease expert. I don't have any of the qualifications to even begin to search for a disease. Disease experts spend years getting their degrees and are highly trained specialists. My comments regarding what ZD could possibly be, are just that, one of many possibilities. I'm an evolutionary biologist, not a someone who studies infectious diseases. Furthermore, I don't even know who you'd turn to to begin this study. I just find it entertaining that so many people think it's an easy process to identify ZD.

 

[Focal]

For zonata disease to be properly studied it would require the attention of an infectious disease expert. I don't have any of the qualifications to even begin to search for a disease. Disease experts spend years getting their degrees and are highly trained specialists. My comments regarding what ZD could possibly be, are just that, one of many possibilities. I'm an evolutionary biologist, not a someone who studies infectious diseases. Furthermore, I don't even know who you'd turn to to begin this study. I just find it entertaining that so many people think it's an easy process to identify ZD.

Then how did you come to the conclusion below? Especially without seeing them in person.

Now, switching gears completely, I wanted to discuss Stu and his animals that are afflicted with 'zonata disease'. I realize many of you have questioned repeatedly if the affected animals could be experiencing something other than zonata disease, but no, they are not. Dehydration seems to be the causal factor that many have insinuated may be at play here.

Mitch

 

[Mitchell Mulks]

When I used the word 'identify' I was referring to the actual isolation of a pathogen. When someone has the chicken pox you know it's the chicken pox just by looking at a person expressing the many pustules. However, I'm sure it took a ton of time and resources to actual isolate the virus responsible for it. All I was saying is that for those of us that have worked with zonata as long as we have, it's easy to identify an animal that is showing the classic tell-tale symptoms of ZD. The actual pathogen that might be responsible for it has not been identified, nor do I think it will be an easy venture to do so. Personally, I think it's a pathogen that responsible for the sickness, but only becomes active under certain environmental conditions. That's just my opinion. It could be purely environmental, but I don't think the evidence points to that. Stu's snakes in his pictures are snakes with classic ZD. Why is that such a big deal for so many people to accept? I even said in my long post that anyone who has ever worked with zonata long enough has had the misfortune, or will have the misfortune of dealing with this. It doesn't make you a bad person if you have snakes that are infected with it. You'd only be a bad person if you sold sick snakes with the knowledge that they were sick. I don't believe Jerry did that. In fact I'm sure they looked perfectly healthy when they left his house. I even think he may never have had an outbreak in his colony. That still doesn't detract from the nearly obvious case that Stu's snakes are displaying ZD and that the stock Jerry purchased came from a breeder who's zonata colony was once hammered with ZD. It's an easy connection that can be made, the only issue was how Stu and Jerry dealt with Stu getting sick animals.

 

[hrford]

Then how did you come to the conclusion below? Especially without seeing them in person.

Because he's talking about two completely different things in these sentences. In one he's talking about the symptoms that actually show in the snake, those seem to be easy to figure out. In the other he's talking about the disease itself meaning the virus/pathogen whatever that causes these symptoms. See a snake have these symptoms is easy figuring out what causes them, why, and what to do about it is a completely different story.


Sorry I've read every page and while I know nothing about ZD I do know something about biology and how research works.

 

[Focal]

Understood.

 

[tim brophy]

After reading Mitchell Mulks recent description of ZD and after reading what I could find about ZD on other forums, I have to wonder. Why would anyone desire to even keep this species? If, as stated, every zonata breeder ultimately experiences ZD, why even keep them when there are so many other tri-colors or even other mountain kings (e.g. pyromelana) which do not exhibit the disease? Granted, zonata are beautiful, but keeping them seems like heartache just waiting to happen. "Typhoid Mary" of snakes!

 

[Mitchell Mulks]

Tim, that's the best question asked yet! Haha. Maybe because we're just gluttons for punishment. I agree with you wholeheartedly though. You bring up pyros, and as far as I know they don't have anything like this happen to them, and they're the sister species (taxonomically speaking) to zonata.

Mitch

 

[joecop]

Mitch, I just finished reading your post and as you know, I agree with the theory here regarding zd. Hell, with my high school education and failed years of college, I am qualified big time. For the others here, I am one of the other zonata keepers that received animals from the same breeder as Jerry. I purchased five animals all together, several years ago, and to date THREE of the five have come down with what I think is ZD. I have fifty or so zonata in my collection and these three animals are the only animals that have shown this condition. I just discovered the third victim two days ago and am trying something different with him. The others I just put down in fear of the condition spreading. This animal has been moved to the oposite side of my house and placed into a highly ventilated cage (large critter keeper). The cool side is 68 degrees with a humid hide and water bowl. The hot side is 110 degrees!! The snake has been sitting on or right next to the hot spot for the last two days. He is still eating as well, but the lower half of his body is limp. We shall see what happens. Just thought I would add this to the post for people to see.

 

[Christina Vincent]

Maybe a thread needs to be started by Jerry or Joe on this breeder they obtained tainted genes from (I read the majority think its viral but somethings naggin me about that especially tracing back to one stock). Lol. My point being if people aren't aware of this breeders history and continue to purchase and breed then sell offspring of said "infected" snakes isn't that eventually doom for the small zonata community? And while ZD *may *be a reason for return of Stu's snakes, its not really a place people looking for sound zonota info will find it (unless they're cruising this thread on the BOI)

 

[joecop]

Christina, the breeder is no longer is business and it would be very hard to track down all the animals that were sold from his collection. He admitted to having this in his colony also, but did not think it could be spread to the rest of his collection. I am not saying this is where all the problems originated from, but find it cannot be a coincidence that these are the only animals I have in MY collection that have come down with this. I have already moved the remaining two animals from my snake room. Hopefully no other animals will come down with this crap.

 

[WebSlave]

Maybe it's just me, but the animal's scales in the photo above by Matthew just doesn't look as shiny as the later one taken by Stu. Matthew, when was that photo taken? You say it was the most recent pic, but that really doesn't tell us WHEN it was taken.

Would you mind taking another more recent pic showing the scales more clearly and in detail? Just for my own curiosity in this.

So where did Matthew (Mjay) wander off to? I think my question has suddenly become even more relevant to this discussion.

 

[WebSlave]

Warning: Please recall that anonymous third party quotes are not welcome here. If someone has to ask WHO said something that is quoted, then THAT is an anonymous third party quote.

 

[jsrocket]

Ya caught that after sry, but why the 7? Seeing that 6 cost the OP $3100 it just didn't make sense to me. Guess its not the OP's comment so I should let it be. I just read that and was dumbfounded on it a minute lol.

3p on thrum d, bla d gat phe..

 

[TONY D]

JoeC you discovered this animal's condition 2 days ago and the back portion of the body is already limp. Interesting that its progressed to that state so quickly. Stu how are yours (Jerry's) looking in this regard, any neuro issues or limpness?