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Receiving dead snake!

J

johnnydance

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Hi Everyone,
I had a very disappointing situation. I ordered 2 ball pythons and had them shipped to me in the Northeast. I know that the temps aren't the best right now, but I've received others without problem (or too many problems).
I received 2 different packages (from 2 different breeders) at the same time. One box had 1 BP and the other contained 2. The package with 1 in it, was delivered without any problems whatsoever, but when I opened the package with 2 in it, the first BP was just fine, but the second BP was dead!!!!!
I spoke with the breeder but he said he couldn't guarantee the second BP because of the temps in my area(understandable). Here is my question... If the temperature was the reason why the second BP died, why didn't it affect the first one or the other package?
They were in the same box with the same heat packs. I could understand that the cold temps could, absolutely, kill a BP if exposed too long, but the other one in the same package didn't even show signs of cold temp exposure (ie. Lethargic Behavior, wheezing or slow tongue movement). Not to mention the one in the other package was fine also? So, 2 out of 3 snakes survived the shipping temps.. doesn't make sense to you????!!!
Any professional advise would be appreciated!!! I purposely didn't mention the morph or the breeder, so as not to intimidate or insult him!!!
Does this sound right to anyone??????
I've raised boas and bp's for over 20 yrs. but never bred them until 2 yrs. ago.
Thanks for any advise!! All Breeder's advise welcomed!!
 
Im gonna be kinda blunt and to the point, some animals are stronger than others. Id have to say its pretty plausible that seems to be the case.
 
Each individual animal will react differently to external stimuli. What one snake can manage to survive, may just kill a similar snake. Although, it does seem to make you want to raise an eyebrow, when you consider that the other one in the box didn't seem to suffer any negative effects.

Was the heat pack still warm? Was it what most would consider a standard packaging job: styrofoam lined box, separate containers for both animals, some sort of insulating material to keep them from rattling around the inside of the box?

Were you home to accept the package on the first delivery attempt? Were you made aware of anything in the seller's TOS - prior to the sale - that specifically stated that, due to the temperature, your shipment wouldn't be covered under any live-arrival guarantee?
 
The heat packs were still warm and the breeders packing job was excellent. I had it shipped to my work, so it was brought into a heated office and I picked it up from there about 20 minute later to bring it into my heated office (where I opened it). I communicated through email with the breeder and was made aware of his terms, which stated that he wouldn't guarantee live arrival if temps were below 30. The question that I had was, because of the excellent condition of the other 2 snakes that I received (one of which shared the same box) at the same time.... does it make sense that it died from the cold temps? BTW, the inside of the box was still warm when I opened it.
Thanks
 
johnnydance said:
.... does it make sense that it died from the cold temps? BTW, the inside of the box was still warm when I opened it.
Thanks
Click to expand...
If what you're saying is true, it sounds fairly unlikely that it died from exposure to the cold. Were you notified of his live arrival guarantee terms before or after you informed him of the DOA?

For future reference, you may want to get in the habit of recording an unboxing video for new shipments. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have an infrared thermometer on hand, too, especially during times when temperature extremes could possibly come into play. If someone is absolutely determined to hide behind their TOS, then it may not do any good. However, some may be open to accepting proof that temperatures didn't play a part in the death, and not so rigidly adhere to their own TOS.
 
I was notified of his TOS prior to informing him of the DOA. I don't blame him for the DOA, it was my decision to ship, but I hadn't had any problems in the past 2/3 yrs. (approx. 75 - 100 deliveries) including during Northeast winters.
I was just wanting to know if the explanation (of cold temps) was a legitimate one, considering the other two survived without ANY indication of cold weather exposure?
Thanks for your advice!
 
Honestly i dont think u will ever really know unless a autopsy is done. As far as compensating u...It really depends on the breeder, i had a bearded dragon die a year after i received it, and the dealer shipped me a new beardie. I didnt ask for a new one, and he had a surplus of them at the time so i paid shipping and he gave me a new one (bloodbank dragons btw). Some breeders go the extra mile and some don't and id have to say it all depends on what the animal was, how the breeders personality is, and if he has extra's of whatever he sold u. Then again its a pretty common scam when someone ships a animal then the person who receives the animal says it was DOA and trys for a refund. Im not saying thats u, but alot will stick by their TOS just for that reason. What were the animals btw?
 
Just to clarify, the breeder seemed to be a good guy. He was sympathetic with my dilemma. I would just like to know for future reference. I have received a shipment before that was REALLY poorly packaged w/ only 12 hr. heat packs and when I opened it, the 2 BP's in it were barely alive but thankfully I had their enclosures heated and waiting for them 2 days in advance. Within an hour, they were moving around at normal speeds and eating within 2 days. No problems with them since!!!
If the DOA was a normal het albino, I wouldn't even think twice but these were visual morphs that I paid quite a bit of coin for and for someone who doesn't make a lot, it kind of hurts a bit financially!
 
It was pointed out to me that the box could have been dangerously cold while on the plane, only to warm back up at some point afterwards. As Shane said, a necropsy would probably be your best bet in finding out exactly what killed the snake. If it was a fairly inexpensive snake, that's likely not something most people would consider. Even if a necropsy proves that there was a preexisting condition that caused the death, that's still no guarantee that the seller would choose to refund you. Although, if you could clearly prove that the weather played no part in killing the snake, and they still clung to their TOS, I suspect that that's something the public may appreciate being made aware of. It'd be a fairly big and expensive risk to take, with no guarantee of paying off.
 
Hi Shane,
Thanks for your input. I understand that the scammers out there are plentiful! I sent the breeder a pic of, both, the live and dead one as soon as I opened the box. He could compare the markings if he had any questions if it were the original BP, but I don't think that he doubted me. The BP was a high white Calico female.
 
I've also never had one done. This is purely a guess, but I'd imagine that it's probably at least a few hundred dollars, but would likely vary a good bit, depending on what tests were performed. If that's an option that you're considering, you'd wanna call your vet. first thing in the morning and find out for sure. The less time between death and the necropsy, the better. I believe that the corpse should be refrigerated (not frozen) to preserve it while you wait for a necropsy to be performed.
 
I'm not sure if it's available everywhere, but here in NC we can have a necropsy done through the state university. NC State has a veterinary program and they perform a necropsy and use the procedure as a teaching tool as well.
I haven't had them do one in years but the last time I did it was only a $20 fee.
And absolutely do not freeze it if a necropsy is planned, doing so destroys the cellular structure and a full necropsy cannot be done.

As for shipping temps, you must keep in mind that a heat pack is not going to keep a package at 75 degrees for the entire trip. A heat pack will keep the interior of the package a certain amount above ambient temperature, but as that drops so does the temp inside the box. If it's in the 30s on the ground, it's going to be even colder than that in the cargo compartment of a plane at 30,000 feet.
I've never tested it but I've read reports that a heat pack will raise the temperature in the box anywhere from 8 to 15 degrees. Even at 15 degrees, that's not much if the ambient is 20-25.
 
I've never tested it, but I've heard some reports that heat packs will stop working altogether in temps below freezing. :shrug01: I don't have any desire to test it out with live animals.

OP, are you, or aren't you okay with his terms that didn't guarantee live arrival in those temps? You say you are, but between the lines we can see that you're not. Did he tell you at all before he shipped that he didn't guarantee live arrival in those temps?

I've never had it happen to me (yet), knock on wood, but deaths during shipping do happen. Could be any one of a handful of reasons, and you might never know why.
 
My personal view of this is that if a seller won't guarantee live arrival at a certain temperature, he shouldn't be shipping at (or below) that temperature.

Not knowing the specifics of how things were packed, it is difficult to say whether the cold temps were responsible. The now deceased snake could, as others have said, have simply been weaker. Maybe there was another problem, that you will likely never know. There really isn't all that much recourse, since you knew there wouldn't be a guarantee & proceeded with shipping anyway...it's just a matter of how badly you want an explanation.
 
Shadera said:
I've never tested it, but I've heard some reports that heat packs will stop working altogether in temps below freezing.
Click to expand...

I haven't heard that - but I will say that a lack of ventilation can cause heat packs to fail. I say "can" because I have been receiving snake shipments for a lot of years...and they don't always fail under seemingly identical conditions. I've received a lot of "dead" heat packs that warmed up again after arrival.
 
johnnydance said:
If the DOA was a normal het albino, I wouldn't even think twice but these were visual morphs that I paid quite a bit of coin for and for someone who doesn't make a lot, it kind of hurts a bit financially!
Click to expand...

I think I would have felt bad that the critter died that way no matter what it cost.
Do you have doubts about the seller's integrity and any thought that the snake was ailing or dead prior to shipment? If not, as pointed out, two different snakes might have different reactions to a steep decline in temps during shipping.
 
Thank you Clay and Shadera for your input,
It's probably going to run a lot higher here in NorthEast (everyone is so expensive) for a necropsy.
As for the heat packs and temps..... I completely understand that it will NOT keep temps inside the shipping box at a perfect, steady and adequate level, BUT (as I stated earlier) If the cold temps were, in fact, the culprit.... would it show (in any degree) on the other snake that "shared" the SAME shipping box or the snake that was in the separate shipping box but delivered at the same time from afar? Both packages were packed VERY well and 2 heat packs were carefully placed (not in direct contact with any of the BP's).
If you say that it makes perfect sense, then OK I'll deal with that information.
IMO I just think that it doesn't make any sense that the other 2 BP's didn't show any sign of cold weather exposure whatsoever. I've received BP's, before that weren't packed well at all (they most likely spent the last 10 hrs. of travel without heat because the shipper used ONLY 12 hour heat packs) and when I opened the box they were cold as hell and the only movement made was their tongue barely made it out (about slow enough to grab by hand), they were actually limp in my hand.... but after an 1.5 hrs. in a preheated cage, they both were moving around fine and both are eating very well! Now back to the recent DOA, the other two BP's never showed signs of cold exposure. They both were moving around fine, tongues flickering and body temps, on both of them, were still warm. Even the DOA had a warm body temp when I took her out????
See what I mean?
 
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