Bad Guy My experience with Underground Reptiles

[aleria]

Why does your post list Outback when the thread is about Underground?

Mistype, was reading multiple pages while trying to type. That's what I get for multitasking.

 

[Focal]

Obviously at this point you are unwilling to be apeased by our answer. You are making certain assumptions about the ingredients of the product. You must only be FDA certified when enlisting the use of certain chemicals and mixtures, as this can be read on the FDA website. I also offered anyone, at any time to come in see, and video if they wish, us spraying our own animals with our product. If this does not suffice and you are still convinced this is wrong please contact the proper authorities and do not delay. I do not know how I can assure you any further that nothing illegal is going on. As far as Mrs. Hollowell goes we did everything we could and went above and beyond to appease her, even after she set up the animal incorrectly. As far as providing everyone with care sheets I will definitely take that advice into consideration, but also keep this in mind how does the smaller breeder keep up with such standards, some of which don't even have a website? Also consider that I have bought, for my own personal collection, animals from some of the largest breeders in the country and cannot recall ever receiving a care sheet even when they did not know who I was. I will not comment any further on this matter and thank everyone for their time and opinions.

Please can you post the email from Underground telling you this?

I know this is not my place to answer, but the OP came here for resolution and Underground Reptiles made it clear they are not coming back to discuss.

Either way, my opinion, Underground Reptiles offered to sell them an animal at a reduced rate after sending them an unhealthy animal. Their TOS states that they guarantee a healthy animal and they do not offer refunds, but credit. They denied her credit from the get-go after violating their own TOS of sending an unhealthy animal based on assumptions that we have disproved.

 

[chollowell]

Here is the email. I could only copy and paste.

I had accidentally sent them my fathers number in an email. But quickly sent my husbands after realizing I sent wrong number. This is email. Even though my husband has called and left his number and they keep taking messages.


Mrs. Hollowell,

We attempted to contact you this morning and the number you provided belongs
to a Mr. Richard Salazar (sorry if the spelling is incorrect). Due to your
improper setup and our terms of service we cannot replace an animal that
perished two weeks after you received it due to improper care. Although we
were not able to verify ourselves that your snake had mites, we took your
word and sent mite kill spray, the same mite kill spray that we use on all
of our own collection. In addition we then offered you a discount on a
future order. At the time you were more than pleased with that offer and
the snake as per our email and phone conversations. I understand your
frustration with the demise of your snake but as anybody who works with
Green Tree Pythons can tell you, your setup was dangerously inappropriate.
As a courtesy to you we then offered to replace the snake at a price even
below our wholesale cost. Rather than working with us you, your family and
your friends set out on a campaign to smear our company's reputation. For
these reasons we will not continue to work with you any longer. We wish you
the best.

Thank you.

--
Ryan B.
Underground Reptiles
Phone: 954-428-8005
Web: http://undergroundreptiles.com

 

[Lucille]

I know this is not my place to answer, but the OP came here for resolution and Underground Reptiles made it clear they are not coming back to discuss.

Nick it is always your place to offer information and your post was a good one. But posting the actual email had some additional value in my opinion, as it shows the company seems to be punishing the buyer for discussing her issue on the BOI.
I do not think anyone is 'smearing' (here anyway) as they describe in their email, I think everyone here has voiced some very real concerns in an appropriate manner.

 

[Focal]

Nick it is always your place to offer information and your post was a good one. But posting the actual email had some additional value in my opinion, as it shows the company seems to be punishing the buyer for discussing her issue on the BOI.
I do not think anyone is 'smearing' (here anyway) as they describe in their email, I think everyone here has voiced some very real concerns in an appropriate manner.

I agree

I think there was also mention of something posted on Facebook but I am unsure as to what Underground Reptiles referred to as "slander." They aren't coming back so I am not to interested in looking for this info, especially when they didn't find a need to post it after the accusation.

 

[Yogi Bear]

Here. That was the opposit side. So here you go this is the actual "window" as you see it between two rooms. I only had a picture of the opposite side at the time.

Sorry to bring the "picture" issue back up, but I was looking at the pic from the kitchen area (the one with the girls head in it), and can't even begin to see the bookcase through that window. If the snake's tank was to be on the other side of that window, therefore the bookcase too, wouldn't I be able to see the bookcase in that pic?

Also, in the original pic of the cage, it appears as if the stand the tank is on is different from the one in following pics showing one that appears to be larger and without solid sides (possibly black?). You can see items under the stand area indicating that the sides are not solid, yet in the previous pic it appears to be a stand that has solid sides that may be wood?

Just questioning!!

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Okay, wait a minute. As a parent I see things so differently now... If I bought a bottle of this "mite killer" and somehow, god forbid my daughter somehow got ahold of it and drank it. Now let's be clear, I wouldn't buy it, don't know why anyone else would, and so this situation would not occur at my house. What the heck am I supposed to tell poison control!?!?!?! "oh it's mite killer, yea I have no idea whats in it."

And then her life could be depending on whether or not I can get ahold of one of you at that moment to find out what is actually in it. This is EXACTLY why you are required by law to disclose all of the ingredients and properly label products with all warnings applicable to said ingredients. You are breaking the law by selling this unlabeled/mislabeled product to people, and also by shipping it through the mail... companies can get into trouble for much less!

You are endangering lives... and for what... greed? So no one steals the secret krabby patty formula? Give me a break. Who do we contact to report this kind of thing? Maybe poison control could provide some insight on where to go. I'm sorry (actually I'm not but I am being polite) but as a parent, I can't mentally know something like that is going on and be okay with it.

 

[Focal]

Sorry to bring the "picture" issue back up, but I was looking at the pic from the kitchen area (the one with the girls head in it), and can't even begin to see the bookcase through that window. If the snake's tank was to be on the other side of that window, therefore the bookcase too, wouldn't I be able to see the bookcase in that pic?

Also, in the original pic of the cage, it appears as if the stand the tank is on is different from the one in following pics showing one that appears to be larger and without solid sides (possibly black?). You can see items under the stand area indicating that the sides are not solid, yet in the previous pic it appears to be a stand that has solid sides that may be wood?

Just questioning!!

The picture with the head is the window on the other side of the door way. If you follow the pictures, look at the dining room and its configuration, you can tell that there are small windows on each side.

 

[Serenescales]

I agree

I think there was also mention of something posted on Facebook but I am unsure as to what Underground Reptiles referred to as "slander." They aren't coming back so I am not to interested in looking for this info, especially when they didn't find a need to post it after the accusation.

Just posting these for everyone's reference, the FB post(s) they previously mentioned are the following (linking to screencast rather than bogging this down with images):
Her original post:
1
2
3
4
5
There were more but that's all my girlfriend screengrabbed (don't ask me why she did it, I have no idea). It should be noted that Chelsea has deleted her original post, which shows a lot on her part I think. Its at least a nice gesture that she deleted it from their public page.


Her first friend's post:
1

Her second friend's post:
1
2
3
4
5
6


There were also a few comments in the "recommendations" box but it looks like those were removed, probably by Underground.

Again, it doesn't really prove anything but shows what "slander" Underground is referring to.

 

[John Capurso]

Okay, wait a minute. As a parent I see things so differently now... If I bought a bottle of this "mite killer" and somehow, god forbid my daughter somehow got ahold of it and drank it. Now let's be clear, I wouldn't buy it, don't know why anyone else would, and so this situation would not occur at my house. What the heck am I supposed to tell poison control!?!?!?! "oh it's mite killer, yea I have no idea whats in it."

And then her life could be depending on whether or not I can get ahold of one of you at that moment to find out what is actually in it. This is EXACTLY why you are required by law to disclose all of the ingredients and properly label products with all warnings applicable to said ingredients. You are breaking the law by selling this unlabeled/mislabeled product to people, and also by shipping it through the mail... companies can get into trouble for much less!

You are endangering lives... and for what... greed? So no one steals the secret krabby patty formula? Give me a break. Who do we contact to report this kind of thing? Maybe poison control could provide some insight on where to go. I'm sorry (actually I'm not but I am being polite) but as a parent, I can't mentally know something like that is going on and be okay with it.

What if all the ingredients are food grade like mineral oil or propylene glycol? Without a necropsy or testing the mite killer spray is irrelevant.

BTW, I'm a parent too.

 

[gluttony]

"What if all the ingredients are food grade like mineral oil or propylene glycol? Without a necropsy or testing the mite killer spray is irrelevant."

If that were the case why not disclose whats in the formula, in order to give peace of mind to the CUSTOMERS...taking the "I am not answering anymore" stance, indicates that there is something in it that makes them liable. imo..just out right shady.

On another note, underground states in one of his earlier posts to this thread, he never received care sheets, from blah blah reptiles breeders, even when they did not know who he was. Is it me or is this odd...should we, they or anybody for that matter know who he is? That came across a bit smug to me... just saying.

 

[Lucille]

irrelevant.

No.
It was at the very least relevant to show that if the pictured container was the way this stuff was sent out, they appear to have not complied with the statutes I outlined earlier.

Who do we contact to report this kind of thing?

Shannon, the post where I outlined the statutes has a number for the Florida agriculture/consumer department.

 

[jmikkelsen]

I am in no way a professional when it comes to the keeping of chondros, but personally i dont think the snake died due to husbandry issues. granted keeping a chondro in a screentop glass aquarium is probably the worst thing you can do. as long as the temps were good the only real problems she would have are humidity related (stuck sheds and all that fun stuff).
of course there are a lot of variables when it comes to chondro husbandry. for instance some chondros will often choose the highest perch in their enclosure no matter the temp. they would rather feel secure and die, it seems, than properly thermoregulate themselves.

chondros have a real bad habit of dropping dead on people. i know a few guys who have been breeding them for years and are considered some of the top chondro breeders and they have animals die a lot. add to the fact that this animal was an import which means someone should have taken this little critter to a vet to get tested.

without a necropsy there really is no way to tell who was to blame for the death of this animal. it is suspicious that shortly after spraying this "mite kill" stuff on the animal it took a turn for the worst and died. but for all i know this snake could have been in bad shape from the start and you didnt see the signs.

my question to Underground reptiles is this.. did you get a fecal done on this chondro upon importing it?

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

The amount of facepalming I did when reading this post was too much to resist.

I have done business with UG before. I placed an order in which I received about 20 reptiles. I was fairly new to herp keeping at the time, but as everyone knows, we all make mistakes.

I received the package, short one Iguana and with another reptile dead. The packaging was great, but things happen. A few days later I started dealing with mites.

Not acceptable.

I am not going against Underground Reptiles. They offer products at a lower price than most. You get what you pay for.

Sometimes you don't even get that. Because the animals die, and so ultimately you have thrown your money into the wind.

I had to learn very quickly how to handle mites and keep the reptiles healthy.

Handling mites is a skill we should all know what to do in case of emergency, but the real point, is that there shouldn't be problems like this in the first place.

UG gave me store credit for the DOA and the missing Iguana with no questions asked. (It was a decent sized order, so I guess they gave me the benefit of the doubt.)

Very generous of them to give you credit towards more mite infested stock with no options of an actual refund especially for the missing one! So If I bought 2 snakes, and they shipped me a box with one snake, I shouldn't expect a refund, but instead some store credit. For which I will have to pay for another order to be shipped. Okay.

Since then, I have not used UG.

fortunately.

Would I in the future? Yes.

Unfortunately.

But first I would definitely have an excellent quarantine set up to deal with incoming mites that happen when you deal with import/export in such large volumes.

There is no acceptable reason for this mite problem to exist in our hobby in the first place. Pure laziness, people being cheap, people downplaying how serious mites are, lack of quarantine on the part of distributors such as this, and general disregard for the heath of animals are the reasons snake mites flourish in captivity. I don't find a single one of those to be acceptable...

I understand that you get what you pay for. You buy at wholesale pricing, be prepared to deal with what comes at that price. Private breeders tend to have a better selection for new breeders. Easy one-on-one support for questions and a smaller collection to manage. But with that comes a higher price.

Half the time, the price isn't even *that* much better. I have seen people buy a crap animal from a crap seller to save as little as $10 when there were healthy CB animals available at the same show. It stings even more, when someone considers buying something you have bred and put you passion into, only to try and convince you to sell it for the same price as that wholesaler over there. Most of us, including me, had to learn that the hard way when we were young and less experienced. But it is still sad. And even worse when people KEEP doing it repeatedly.

To me, the mites are not necessarily causing an unhealthy snake.

Mites take vital blood and water from an animal. They wedge themselves between scales and cause irritation (anyone who has ever seen a snake with mites desperately rolling around trying to scratch them off knows this). They bite the animal and break the skin barrier (which opens their body up to new ailments from the outside). They can force an animal to change it's habits in desperation to get them off (soaking for LONG periods of time) which can ultimately cause their health to diminish. Soaking all of the time takes away from basking, which in turn can cause poor digestion IF the snake will even eat while it has mites, not to mention the classic skin problems snakes can acquire from too much soaking. Mites can spread infectious diseases from one animal to the next in the same way mosquitoes and ticks do. How are any of those things not unhealthy?

I am not saying mites are what literally killed this snake. But it definitely shouldn't be downplayed as something trivial and ultimately mites always have negative effects on an animal.

Is it bad for business? Of course. Did they try to correct it? Yes.

Sorry about the mites... my bad. Here's an unlabeled, illegally sold and distributed bottle of liquid. Just put this on your snake. Doesn't it bother anyone that these people actually have a protocol for when they send out mite infested animals in the first place?

Should you already be prepared to handle incoming mites when receiving reptiles? YES!!

Prepared to quarantine? Yes! Have products on hand just in case? Yes! Prepared for an active mite infestation?! No!!! Mites should be extremely rare in our hobby. Realistically I don't think they could ever be 100% eradicated... because there is always that ONE tiny mite that will find his way. But expecting to deal with mites? What on earth for? Again... there shouldn't BE animals leaving a facility that contains mites in the first place!!!

I feel that it was a poor situation for someone that (though she claims 13 years of herp experience) seems new to keeping reptiles, but proper research prior to this on her part would have saved both parties a lot of trouble

.

This is correct. The OP definitely should have done a lot more homework regarding chondro husbandry. And should never have sprayed an unidentifiable substance on their snake. Hindsight. We all make mistakes, especially when we were following the lead of someone we thought we could trust with their "expertise".

But that doesn't absolve UG of responsibility for selling a mite ridden snake or sending out bottles of "secret formula" mite killer. UG is using the OP's noob-ness as an scapegoat to wash their hands of this situation. All while directing us to go watch a video of them spraying animals with mystery solution to prove that it is "safe".

Honestly, If you bought a perfectly, TRULY healthy, captive bred chondro and put it into that setup, I can see it's health deteriorating over time. Shed issues, etc. two weeks? no. As long as it had water, I just can't see that enclosure actually KILLING a HEALTHY chondro in two weeks. That's giving chondros less credit than they deserve. They are tougher animals than many presume them to be. They are definitely needy and have specific care requirements, and are unforgiving of mistakes, but two weeks, is the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. Heck one of my local shops kept a CB juvenile chondro in a WIRE CAGE with those same conditions and it had lived there for at least 8 months before it sold.

Furthermore, I feel that UG went beyond what was required of them.

I don't feel that could be any further from the truth.

For a company that deals mostly with wholesaling, they are used to customers that can handle what they receive.

You are right. They are used to a customer base that prefers quantity over quality and has no problem accepting sub-par animals that may or may not be carrying mites.

I literally just treated my collection for mites. It took me two treatments a week and a half apart and my snakes are mite free and healthy.

It wasn't fun was it? You know if sellers would have better standards, all of that chemical exposure and stress to the animals wouldn't be necessary.

I feel that UG was more than fair by offering to send a replacement at a below-wholesale price once the setup was fixed.

I feel that UG should have eaten the cost of shipping and had the snake sent back to them the moment the mite issue became apparent, and stopped selling reptiles until it was under control.

To the OP, I am not attacking you. I apologize if you feel that way, but I am stating the facts as I see them.

This is exactly my sentiment towards you.

I am sure that you were disappointed to have received this, but I am sure you have learned a great deal from the situation. If I were you, I would take UG up on the offer and maybe ask them for tips on keeping chondros.

no. no no no. I wouldn't ask any more advice from someone who has a protocol for when they send out snakes with mites and said protocol involves sending unlabeled bottles of liquid to put on said snakes.

There are too many reputable people in our hobby for this kind of sub par service and treatment of reptiles to be OK.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

What if all the ingredients are food grade like mineral oil or propylene glycol? Without a necropsy or testing the mite killer spray is irrelevant.

BTW, I'm a parent too.

The problem is, we don't know that! And a pesticide is any product that is intended to kill a pest, regardless of what it is made from. From what I understand, ANY pesticide needs to be properly labeled. Even in my years managing retail pet supply, even the SIMPLEST of homeopathic remedies for fleas (such as plain old peppermint oil and water) were properly labeled. And they should be! Even then, there were times when we would have to pull products from the shelf purely because even though they were properly labeled, they had not been properly approved/regulated in our state.

That post was specifically directed towards their selling of this spray, not over whether or not it killed this snake. In reality, I actually seriously doubt the spray alone actually killed the snake unless it was doused in it to the point of practically drinking the stuff in large quantities.

 

[Focal]

What if all the ingredients are food grade like mineral oil or propylene glycol? Without a necropsy or testing the mite killer spray is irrelevant.

BTW, I'm a parent too.

Right. That's why Underground quickly made a run for the door when the chemical make-up of the spray was requested. I bet dollars to donuts this was a certain solution that is not made for, nor intended to be used on animals.

Have people used it successfully for years? Probably, however, I have no problem in someone using such a chemical on their own animals at their own risk. If you are pawning of solutions that were never intended to be used on animals as a treatment for the customer to use on their newly required animal, then DAMN RIGHT its relevant.

 

[chollowell]

To the fb post screenshots. Excuse me if I was trusting the mite snake was a mess up. They told me it was when telling me they would send mite killer. So yes bc I was treating the snake with zoomed until their stuff arrived. I did make 2 question posts to them. Curiosity questions. Not I want to order more stuff. I asked the temperament question to a few different people to get a feel for what the responses were and gather info from other people. As for the screen top on the cage. There is actually one of the glass tops from petco under the screen. With a corner cut of the glass for the lamp to warm the cage.

 

[Basand]

The amount of facepalming I did when reading this post was too much to resist.



Not acceptable.

Did I say it was truly acceptable? No. But Underground is an importer/exporter of large volumes. They are not in the business of really breeding or anything, just moving as much as fast as possible. Quantity over quality. You see this in every industry. Food, entertainment, investments, retail, etc. The OP obviously knew about this forum, so why not buy from one of our many private breeders? Do you buy dogs from puppy mills? I don't but people do to save a penny.

Sometimes you don't even get that. Because the animals die, and so ultimately you have thrown your money into the wind.

There again you run into the whole "you get what you pay for" concept. If you pay for a cheap car don't complain when it breaks down. Should have spent the money on something better.

Handling mites is a skill we should all know what to do in case of emergency, but the real point, is that there shouldn't be problems like this in the first place.

Agreed. One large scale distributor with a large mite infestation runs the risk of spreading into collections nationwide. However EVERY COLLECTOR should have researched into taking care of mites before ever owning a reptile. They are tough to handle and can be very disheartening if not prepared. Mites can travel to collections from infestations at shows just from being on clothing. They are persistant.

Very generous of them to give you credit towards more mite infested stock with no options of an actual refund especially for the missing one! So If I bought 2 snakes, and they shipped me a box with one snake, I shouldn't expect a refund, but instead some store credit. For which I will have to pay for another order to be shipped. Okay.

At the time I reported it, the mites had not been seen. I did not ask for a refund, credit was fine with me. I never used it but I thought I was going to. Also, I get free shipping. Unfortunately it is a pain to deal with quoting on my phone so I will finish when I get to my PC. [/quote]


fortunately.



Unfortunately.



There is no acceptable reason for this mite problem to exist in our hobby in the first place. Pure laziness, people being cheap, people downplaying how serious mites are, lack of quarantine on the part of distributors such as this, and general disregard for the heath of animals are the reasons snake mites flourish in captivity. I don't find a single one of those to be acceptable...




Half the time, the price isn't even *that* much better. I have seen people buy a crap animal from a crap seller to save as little as $10 when there were healthy CB animals available at the same show. It stings even more, when someone considers buying something you have bred and put you passion into, only to try and convince you to sell it for the same price as that wholesaler over there. Most of us, including me, had to learn that the hard way when we were young and less experienced. But it is still sad. And even worse when people KEEP doing it repeatedly.



Mites take vital blood and water from an animal. They wedge themselves between scales and cause irritation (anyone who has ever seen a snake with mites desperately rolling around trying to scratch them off knows this). They bite the animal and break the skin barrier (which opens their body up to new ailments from the outside). They can force an animal to change it's habits in desperation to get them off (soaking for LONG periods of time) which can ultimately cause their health to diminish. Soaking all of the time takes away from basking, which in turn can cause poor digestion IF the snake will even eat while it has mites, not to mention the classic skin problems snakes can acquire from too much soaking. Mites can spread infectious diseases from one animal to the next in the same way mosquitoes and ticks do. How are any of those things not unhealthy?

I am not saying mites are what literally killed this snake. But it definitely shouldn't be downplayed as something trivial and ultimately mites always have negative effects on an animal.



Sorry about the mites... my bad. Here's an unlabeled, illegally sold and distributed bottle of liquid. Just put this on your snake. Doesn't it bother anyone that these people actually have a protocol for when they send out mite infested animals in the first place?



Prepared to quarantine? Yes! Have products on hand just in case? Yes! Prepared for an active mite infestation?! No!!! Mites should be extremely rare in our hobby. Realistically I don't think they could ever be 100% eradicated... because there is always that ONE tiny mite that will find his way. But expecting to deal with mites? What on earth for? Again... there shouldn't BE animals leaving a facility that contains mites in the first place!!!

.

This is correct. The OP definitely should have done a lot more homework regarding chondro husbandry. And should never have sprayed an unidentifiable substance on their snake. Hindsight. We all make mistakes, especially when we were following the lead of someone we thought we could trust with their "expertise".

But that doesn't absolve UG of responsibility for selling a mite ridden snake or sending out bottles of "secret formula" mite killer. UG is using the OP's noob-ness as an scapegoat to wash their hands of this situation. All while directing us to go watch a video of them spraying animals with mystery solution to prove that it is "safe".

Honestly, If you bought a perfectly, TRULY healthy, captive bred chondro and put it into that setup, I can see it's health deteriorating over time. Shed issues, etc. two weeks? no. As long as it had water, I just can't see that enclosure actually KILLING a HEALTHY chondro in two weeks. That's giving chondros less credit than they deserve. They are tougher animals than many presume them to be. They are definitely needy and have specific care requirements, and are unforgiving of mistakes, but two weeks, is the blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. Heck one of my local shops kept a CB juvenile chondro in a WIRE CAGE with those same conditions and it had lived there for at least 8 months before it sold.



I don't feel that could be any further from the truth.



You are right. They are used to a customer base that prefers quantity over quality and has no problem accepting sub-par animals that may or may not be carrying mites.



It wasn't fun was it? You know if sellers would have better standards, all of that chemical exposure and stress to the animals wouldn't be necessary.



I feel that UG should have eaten the cost of shipping and had the snake sent back to them the moment the mite issue became apparent, and stopped selling reptiles until it was under control.



This is exactly my sentiment towards you.



no. no no no. I wouldn't ask any more advice from someone who has a protocol for when they send out snakes with mites and said protocol involves sending unlabeled bottles of liquid to put on said snakes.

There are too many reputable people in our hobby for this kind of sub par service and treatment of reptiles to be OK.



[/QUOTE]

 

[chollowell]

Also the fb being removed. I stated way on earlier in this thread that I was going to remove mine bc I felt it unprofessional and was done in anger for being ignored by the owner. Whom himself refuses to contact us at all. Also, my friends posts and families posts. They are grown adults and did it on their own after knowing the situation. I didn't ask them to post or make them. They are adults. They did on their own.

 

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Do you buy dogs from puppy mills? I don't but people do to save a penny.

Trust me.... you *do not* want to get me started on this topic. It's one I feel very strongly about. This is a reptile forum so I will not go any further.

These mills whether for snakes or any other animal, shouldn't exist in the first place. And the fact that UG can be likened to a puppy mill isn't even much of a stretch. Except they aren't even producing their own offspring.