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Bad Guy Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

And also you dont know when the tortoise died. What if it wasn't dead and had the OP gone that morning and got it may have been alive. Who is to say it didnt die while at the facility waiting to be shipped the 2nd day and they bagged it then... So there is a chance had the OP went the next morning it might have still been alive
 
To my knowledge at the time he did not have any radiated tortoises that he had hatched at the the time. The only thing I was oferred was radiated tortoises at cost. It is still unreasonable that he would not send my tortoise back nor the $1,000. Had I known in advance that a third party would be involved, I would have reconsidered the entire transaction. This was never revealed until there was a problem. If this had happened to you I seriously doubt you would have accepted something different.
 
And also you dont know when the tortoise died. What if it wasn't dead and had the OP gone that morning and got it may have been alive. Who is to say it didnt die while at the facility waiting to be shipped the 2nd day and they bagged it then... So there is a chance had the OP went the next morning it might have still been alive

In order for this to be true, you'd have to conclude the bottom didn't break out of the box until it was sitting at the facility waiting to be picked up. Very unlikely. It's more likely the delay in shipping is because the bottom broke out of the box and it ended up at their facility were they send problem packages. I've had this happen to me with FedEx. This means it was re-boxed with the animal in the plastic bag before it arrived at the destination giving the tort no chance of being alive.
 
Also ErikL if you were tracking it, how come you didn't know it was being delayed? Why were you not calling and driving down to the UPS place? Just curious you claim you tracked it
 
I am not sure what your interest is in this after all this time. I tracked it and was working the day it arrived, I called ups multiple times to find out about the status, the major hold up was in southern California, 6 hrs from my house, again I was working. I called ups when tracking indicated it had arrived in Modesto, they told me I couldn't pick it up until after 2 pm at one point. I had no one to go for me as I was working until 3 pm. I went straight home and waited and picked up the box with the dead tortoise 3 minutes after it arrived. The tortoise was not packaged appropriately which resulted in the box breaking and then someone putting that box in a sealed plastic bag. Those combined actions killed this beautiful animal. It was the sellers responsibility to package the tortoise appropriately, and the shippers responsibity to handle the package appropriately. Neither happened. Had the tortoise i shipped showed up dead, and proof provided, a money order would have been fedexed immediately and I would have hoped that would be the end of it. Because the seller nor the shipper is willing to take responsibility, they will be joined in a small claims action.
 
I, too, find it interesting that someone who supports ATC would want this thread to be getting more attention. You would think the OP would be the one trying to keep attention on this matter. Again, it is very clear to me and most others what happened in this unfortunate situation. Will be interested to see how this shakes out in court. I hope the final outcome gets posted here for all to see.
 
First of all Msean, just cause I support them doesn't mean I can't ask questions. The OP says ATC is a bad guy and we shouldn't do business with him. Well I need to know that the OP did everything in their power to get to the animal. From what I've seen the OP keeps using work as an excuse to not have tried more. If I am do believe they are bad, then I want all the info. I never said ATC wasnt at any fault, I have just yet to see a good reason to not buy from them and label them as a bad guy. All I'm getting at, and I dont really care how much attention this gets, I'm also just trying to see what others see, bc I don't see what the problem is. From everything I've read you're lucky nowadays if any will give you a refund and work with you if a problem arises.
 
First of all Msean, just cause I support them doesn't mean I can't ask questions. The OP says ATC is a bad guy and we shouldn't do business with him. Well I need to know that the OP did everything in their power to get to the animal. From what I've seen the OP keeps using work as an excuse to not have tried more. If I am do believe they are bad, then I want all the info. I never said ATC wasnt at any fault, I have just yet to see a good reason to not buy from them and label them as a bad guy. All I'm getting at, and I dont really care how much attention this gets, I'm also just trying to see what others see, bc I don't see what the problem is. From everything I've read you're lucky nowadays if any will give you a refund and work with you if a problem arises.

From what I can tell, the OP did what he could as we all would based on predicted arrival time. The fact that the tortoise died long before that. If the delay and repackaging by UPS due to shipper crap packaging was at least in SOCAL or before that, the OP could do nothing to help the animal. OP did say that documented delay was 6 hours away. Again, if animal was packaged correctly it would of been fine for days as temps were not in extremes. Questions are good, I agree. I think best thing you could do would be is to spend about $4000 with ATC and ask ATC to ship via UPS and remind him to pack it so it falls apart after it starts the journey. Myself, I hate to ship my reptiles, I hate and go thru much stress shipping reptiles. When dealing with high end animals it is the nature of the business, however. I can say, though, I would refund anyone in these circumstances. I believe and, have seen, many honest and reliable people refund or replace animals in similar circumstances. You are right, questions good to ask.....sometimes the truth is the truth whether people want to hear it or believe it or not.
 
If I am do believe they are bad, then I want all the info. I never said ATC wasnt at any fault, I have just yet to see a good reason to not buy from them and label them as a bad guy. All I'm getting at, and I dont really care how much attention this gets, I'm also just trying to see what others see, bc I don't see what the problem is. From everything I've read you're lucky nowadays if any will give you a refund and work with you if a problem arises.

Okay, I'll chime in. Something caused box to collapse. ATC denied responsibility, used their terms as a shield, and fell on their sword. The OP's work schedule really isn't relevant, IMO. As for the last bit, I would wager that just about anybody with little green dots next to their name or positive trader ratings would work with their buyers. Your conclusion, however, would be reinforced by reading ATC's terms (and yet you are defending them).

Was proof ever supplied regarding the animal the OP sent, which was used to arrive at/justify the offer?

As others have said, it's a tough pill to swallow. I would wager that, in retrospect, ATC would rather have made the OP whole than have this thread here.
 
Honestly, I really don't care if you guys label ATC as bad, and I'm not really trying to defend them (though it really seems that way), I'm really trying to see if they deserve all the blame. I'm suppose to be convinced after reading 10 pages they're bad, and I'm not seeing it, but trying to. As I have said before I never said that ATC wasn't at any fault.And to me it does matter how much effort an OP makes to get their animal if its going to be delayed in any situation, not just this one. It "may" be ok for a few days, but to me thats a risk. Honestly you can label ATC bad all day long. I'm really just looking to see the big fuss. This OP wasn't offered a full refund ok, well not much you can do about that. They were offered cash and free hatchlings/store credit for life, OP doesnt want it, and to me it seems the best deal they were going to get out of it. Obviously ATC revoked that offer.
 
Bottom line, ATC properly packs the tortoise, it's still alive. You're really grasping at straws to blame Eric here. The Tortoise was in a PLASTIC BAG! Even if it was alive when that happened, it would have died very quickly. (Put a bag over your head, seal it, and see how long you last!) Making a big deal of when he got there is ridiculous! Just the fact that he didn't bother to pack any animal, let alone a $3200 tortoise, properly prompts me to not want to deal with him.
 
I'm not pulling all the blame on the OP, its equal IMO, and still last but not least no one can prove when the :censored:tortoise died! Anyways, I'm done with this thread, I'm still not convinced there is much wrong with the situation, and I really don't want this to turn into arguing, I just wanted more info :). This was a good read/discussion :bolt01:
 
Since my name has been used several times here with inferences which are not exactly correct, I wish to state some facts for the record:

1) Adult Radiated Tortoises (and other large tortoises as well) can urinate VERY copious amounts and do so frequently when stressed (IE, simply when picked up or when placed in a box to be shipped, etc.). Therefore it is an absolute necessity to ship an adult Radiated Tortoise in a totally watertight shipping container. As some other posters here have noted, this means a solid 5 sided Styrofoam cooler with a lid fitted inside a cardboard outer box such as those used to ship tropical fish. It DOES NOT mean 6 separate flat pieces of Styrofoam laid inside a cardboard box. There is NO seal whatsoever in that situation, and any liquid originating in that type of Styrofoam lined shipping box will readily leak out. Wooden crates for large tortoises are supposed to be watertight as well (if used for shipping via Delta Airlines, and probably others as well), but wooden boxes will leak somewhat unless the seams are sealed. Wooden boxes, however will not fall apart when they get wet the way cardboard does. No one can blame UPS here for trying to keep the original incorrectly used box from falling apart and having the contents lost in transit. They were simply doing what they were supposed to do by getting the box to its destination in one piece. They had no idea there was a live animal in it, since it had no air holes and wasn't marked as a "LIVE ANIMAL" so that they would accept it for shipment. There really can be no doubt that the delay was caused by the box beginning to fall apart in transit which had to be remedied before its journey could continue. IMPROPER PACKAGING cost this tortoise its life, NOT the carrier delays which were necessitated by it.

2) That being said, I personally will not use ANY overnight shipping methods regardless of the carrier involved unless at the buyer's insistence, and then I inform the buyer that doing so is absolutely and totally done at the buyer's sole risk because of the many bad experiences I have had personally or have heard about from others over the years with FEDEX, UPS, DHL, etc. Additionally, I feel that just a few hours spent in a box is a lot less stressful to the animals than 14-24 hours spent that way. Also, I have had a UPS account for my business since the 1980's and asked them several times over the years whether I could ship reptiles via UPS. I was told that it was against their regulations to ship live animals AND THEREFORE their planes have no pressurized and heated cargo areas. They also told me that they randomly X-rayed packages, and that if they detected any live animals in them, the shipper of same was banned from using UPS for life. Here is yet another caveat for shippers in colder areas: when I lived in CT, I frequently visited the airport very early in the mornings to ship various animals. There I observed that many of the packages waiting to be loaded onto the UPS planes were left sitting (in open sided carts and other containers) outside on the tarmac all night. We often had nights of zero and below in the winter, and the boxes in the carts often had frost on them at 4-5 AM. Not something I would do to my tortoises, even with heat packs in the box.

3) The tortoise which Erik sent to Andrew and "the breeder" was raised by me and was in 100% perfect condition when it was sent to Erik by me a few months before this debacle unfolded. Erik wanted me to send it to him via FEDEX, but I refused to do so, and he arranged to have his father go to the airport and pick up the box from Delta Airlines. The same thing could have been the case here had the seller been more conscientious. Like others here, I find it hard to believe that animal died in a week, BUT it was not used to the intense AZ heat and sun, and could easily have perished from overheating if put directly outside and not watched carefully until it got accustomed to its new environment. That would be the fault of "the breeder". Personally, if I had an animal die after such a short time, I would have a necropsy done so I would know what killed it. Where are the necropsy results to prove its demise?
 
I don't recall asking Bill to ship the tortoise FedEx as air shipping was included in the purchase price. Otherwise, what Bill has said above I tend to agree with and for certain the fake tortoise he shipped to me arrived alive and well.
 
I had a very large tortoise transaction with Erik just recently. I'd never met or dealt with him before. I can say that this young man was impressive and very serious about what we were doing. Our deal went off without a hitch. Like I eluded to in my previous post, when I ship an animal, I guarantee live delivery. This tortoise died in transit. It's up to the seller to make it right and refund Erik. Receiving a dead animal is not worth a dime. All turtle and tortoise breeders/dealers should really pressure Arizona Tortoise Compound to fix this for Erik. I for one won't be dealing with them ever until they do. Tortoise people are a very tight group. We need to demand satisfaction. It could have been one of us.
 
Actually UPS does ship turtles, tortoises, lizards, and amphibians. They do not except crocodillians, snakes, or venomous. Actually the worst shipping experiences I've had have been with Delta. The last time I had an animal shipped Delta Dash it took two days and the animal ended up taking a trip all over the country. I've also gone to the Detroit Delta air cargo several times only to find my animals being held in the non-climate controlled warehouse area. I'll take fedex any time!
 
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