Bad Guy Kingsnake.com, Jeff Barringer

[Focal]

Even if he broke TOS and that's the reason they deleted his account, he at least deserves to be notified. The would have been the right thing to do. Does their TOS state your account will be deleted if the above happens? If not, then KS also broke TOS.

 

[HadesBP18]

Seems to me that the OP probably doesn't want to give KS his business anymore anyways.

From what I'm gathering he does deserve his money back if he paid for a service he can no longer use. I don't see how that's fraudulent. You pay, you get a service. If you pay and get no service then there is a problem. As far as the emails go, I don't understand why KS wasn't willing to accept proof of identity from the OP and instead just said "sorry, can't help you as I can't verify your identity." The user paid to use their service and could provide receipts! It seems to me that they'd want to work a little harder for their paying customers seeing as they are the ones who keep their site afloat.

But judging by the other posts here, KS seems to have a little poorer customer service. Agreed, stick with Fauna

 

[treeboa]

Even if he broke TOS and that's the reason they deleted his account, he at least deserves to be notified. The would have been the right thing to do. Does their TOS state your account will be deleted if the above happens? If not, then KS also broke TOS.

Their TOS do expressly state your account can be suspended or terminated for this violation. They do not state anything about what happens with the money paid for the account. They really should have communicated with the OP. Maybe his account was suspended and not terminated, but that's a moot point after the chargebacks.

 

[Wraith]

So some people think it's ok for a person to falsely claim to be a business when they have not provided proof they are legally registered to operate under a business name.

Some people think it's ok for a person (falsely claiming to be a business) to post ads selling animals on a site that specifically requires people to show proof they are in fact a legally registered business before they can use their business name on the site.

Then when said person gets caught fraudulently representing themselves as a business, they cry foul. KS tells them to stop posting as a business and post as an individual hobbyist until they can show proof they have legally registered their business name.

That answer apparently that is not good enough and said person goes running to paypal and lies and fraudulently claims that their "card was used without permission" and had the charges reversed.

You cannot legally call yourself a business if you are not in fact legally registered with your state to do business under that name. To call yourself by a business name without being registered is FRAUD. Paying for a service and using that service then later lying to get that payment reversed is FRAUD, THEFT OF SERVICES, & CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.

That seems to sum up the situation.

And for those that didn't see the FB post on the situation, here's the direct quote from JeffB:
https://www.facebook.com/kingsnakejeffb/posts/10201652827936513

I don't know why I should have to say this. But I will.
I run a legal, respectable business.

If you are running an illegal, unlicensed, unregistered, unpermited business, or you decline to provide my business with documentation to prove you aren't when requested, you will be removed from our systems for breach of contract and your monies will be forfeit, just like your contract says.

You can bitch on Fauna or to the BBB all you want,
but you will find - I don't care
Use my site to break the law, you wil be asked to correct your actions.
Decline, and you will be removed permanently.

I don't know who this Kaiden Waldron-Francis from "Black Panther Zoological" in Rockport Mass is, but they refused to provide our staff legal documentation on their business, and then filed a chargeback on their purchase after being told that they were required to post as an individual until they could provide us their legal documentation. They claimed that their card had been used without authorization, which was in itself a fraudulent claim.

This has earned Kaiden Waldron-Francis and "Black Panther Zoological" in Rockport Mass a spot on kingsnake.com's permanent black list.

Everyone plays by the same laws and rules. If you want to use kingsnake.com to run an illegal, unlicensed or unregistered business
then I do not want your business - ever.

This industry has enough rip-off artists, con men, and lawbreakers.

 

[Wraith]

Their TOS do expressly state your account can be suspended or terminated for this violation. They do not state anything about what happens with the money paid for the account. They really should have communicated with the OP. Maybe his account was suspended and not terminated, but that's a moot point after the chargebacks.

Actually the TOS does state what happens to the money....
http://market.kingsnake.com/tos.php

Legal:

...Any violations of the terms listed above that cause your account to be terminated will cause any and all registration or advertising fees paid to be forfeit to OnlineHobbyist.com, Inc.

 

[j_dunlavy]

I do not really want to take sides here, but on Jeff B.'s Facebook page, Jeff mentions that an individual representing himself as a business when that individual is not a business could in fact be looked at as as a possible violation of the Lacey act; that is some serious stuff! I have to agree with his concerns.

I think Jeff has done a very thorough job of writing his TOS and he has made it clear that he wants to prevent any illegal activity on his site. To some these rules may seem somewhat over the top but I think running a tight ship is better for this industry, after all, we are suffering from a constant barrage of bad press and restrictive legislation.

As for the OP; it seems that he needed to go through the same registration process that all businesses go through but got ahead of himself. He tried to post as a business before he was a registered business and this was the result. What happens to the person who starts selling liquor without a liquor license?
Also, disputing the charge as "unauthorized use" is total BS, and he obviously did not read the TOS.

By keeping up with all these laws we can protect ourselves and our customers. I am now a hobbyist, thus I will post as a hobbyist. When I make the change to a business I will post as a business, not before. I will still pay taxes either way, otherwise I could be in deep

As reptile hobbyists and businesses, we must remember to keep things TOTALLY legit and follow ALL the rules or else we will be sitting on a whole bunch of reptiles we are no longer allowed to keep. Jeff B. knows this and I appreciate that he is trying to keep things legal on his site. Thanks Jeff.

 

[Lucille]

I hate to do this, but if recording a bad experience will prevent someone else’s headache, then so be it.

You must be talking about the bad experience of doing business with you.

My business, for one, will happily go elsewhere.

Did you really lie and say your card was used without permission? If you would turn around and spitefully commit fraud over the small sum involved in this issue, who in their right mind would do business with you?

You might try to go elsewhere, but the reptile world, it's a small world. This thread is going to be here for a loooong time, and hopefully, that will prevent others from experiencing the same headache you tried to give Jeff.

We got your number, loud and clear.

 

[predators]

if Kingsnake decides to ban you or block you from using there site for what they (without the option of an appeals process or arbitrator) feels is a violation of there terms of service and not issue a pro-rated refund I believe a court of law would decide against them. They have the right to be judge and jury because it is there business but, they can not just seize your money and not offer a refund.

For example--- I buy a banner ad- Pre pay for a year $2000 or whatever, A week later they decide I violated there TOS and just confiscate my money and take down my ad . Doesnt make sense or seem legal

 

[treeboa]

I do not really want to take sides here, but on Jeff B.'s Facebook page, Jeff mentions that an individual representing himself as a business when that individual is not a business could in fact be looked at as as a possible violation of the Lacey act; that is some serious stuff! I have to agree with his concerns.

I think Jeff has done a very thorough job of writing his TOS and he has made it clear that he wants to prevent any illegal activity on his site. To some these rules may seem somewhat over the top but I think running a tight ship is better for this industry, after all, we are suffering from a constant barrage of bad press and restrictive legislation.

As for the OP; it seems that he needed to go through the same registration process that all businesses go through but got ahead of himself. He tried to post as a business before he was a registered business and this was the result. What happens to the person who starts selling liquor without a liquor license?
Also, disputing the charge as "unauthorized use" is total BS, and he obviously did not read the TOS.

By keeping up with all these laws we can protect ourselves and our customers. I am now a hobbyist, thus I will post as a hobbyist. When I make the change to a business I will post as a business, not before. I will still pay taxes either way, otherwise I could be in deep

As reptile hobbyists and businesses, we must remember to keep things TOTALLY legit and follow ALL the rules or else we will be sitting on a whole bunch of reptiles we are no longer allowed to keep. Jeff B. knows this and I appreciate that he is trying to keep things legal on his site. Thanks Jeff.

This is the reason the OP really has no room to complain. It is spelled out in the TOS which he obviously didn't read. You can think losing his money is unfair all you want, but you click a button saying you agree to the TOS. It spells out in there the consequences. If you don't read it before you click it's you're own fault.

 

[KORBIN5895]

It's kinda funny when scammers oust themselves in public like this.

He won the first charge back because ks didn't reply. Take that for what you will but the second one is pure thievery.

 

[HerpVenue]

For example--- I buy a banner ad- Pre pay for a year $2000 or whatever, A week later they decide I violated there TOS and just confiscate my money and take down my ad . Doesnt make sense or seem legal

In your example, you are just a regular Joe who was paying for a service.

Also, you make it seem like he did not do anything wrong and Kingsnake just decided he was breaking TOS.

If you commit theft of service. If you FRAUDULENTLY represent yourself as a business. If you then file a chargeback FRAUDULENTLY by claiming someone used your account without your permission, you are committing fraud.

I guess these days, the people who commit fraud or break the laws are the victims.

 

[Lucille]

if Kingsnake decides to ban you or block you from using there site for what they (without the option of an appeals process or arbitrator) feels is a violation of there terms of service and not issue a pro-rated refund I believe a court of law would decide against them.

I disagree. Those seeking to use the services of KS have contractually agreed to the TOS prior to advertising.
Courts do not often interfere in the terms of a contract especially if both parties are businesses as they are here.
The OP is not some helpless innocent, but instead was a businessman who would be expected to read and understand the contracts he signs, and adhere to their terms, and understand the consequence of violating those terms.
The court would look at the thousands of advertisers that never had a problem, they would also look at the way the terms of the TOS was violated by the OP who agreed to those TOS when purchasing the right to advertise.

The TOS spells out the consequences for breaking its terms.
The OP freely agreed to be contractually bound to those terms by his agreement with KS.
The OP is a businessman and adult, and hence is expected to read and understand what he signs.
The OP broke those terms.
The OP received the consequences he agreed to when signing up, for breaking those terms.

A court is not going to go in and disturb the agreement that two business parties made under these circumstances.

 

[Focal]

So, in summary, if someone were to make a simple mistake of using their hobby name as a business name then they will be blacklisted from kingsnake classifieds. It seems like the majority of hobbyists use a name to identify themselves when selling and if you make this mistake on KS, you will be classified the same as customers that "circumvent" rules, scam, or repeativly violate the rules ... With no warning.

I've read their TOS, and it is not clear that this is the course of action they take. When I investigated an enhanced account, I came across this from the website:

PLEASE NOTE!!! Just because you register and pay does not neccesarily mean you have been approved for an account!!! All registrants must pass an internal fraud screen and registrants with open invoices, complaints, or TOS violations will be declined and their monies refunded. We reserve the right to decline service to any applicant.

 

[Focal]

I also do not condone the reversal in anyway, but I firmly believe that the reversal was used as justification for improperly handling what could have been an oversight. While the fight against scammers is a tedious job, I think the OP was mistreated, understood his mistake and could have continued to be a productive member of KS, but yet he was handled like a threat when he clearly recognized his mistake and tried to move forward. We all make mistakes and I don't see this as a blatant attack that deserved a punishment consistent with those violations that threaten KS.

 

[Lucille]

I came across this from the website

I take your posted excerpt that to mean that one registers and pays for an enhancement, and then one must wait to be vetted and if that process fails, there will be a refund.
That is not what happened here, the enhanced account was actually used by the OP prior to receiving an OK.

 

[Focal]

I take your posted excerpt that to mean that one registers and pays for an enhancement, and then one must wait to be vetted and if that process fails, there will be a refund.
That is not what happened here, the enhanced account was actually used by the OP prior to receiving an OK.

Wouldn't that mean that KS approved the business account only to immediately decline it to circumvent the refund step. If they approved the enhanced business account only to close it based off the same criteria that they need to approve it, then the fault is on KS.

 

[Focal]

To further clarify, it appears the account must be approved before it is used. In this case, they approved it without ensuring the account met the business protocol. Only later they rejected it when it should have been caught prior to approval. I'm not 100% on the procedure, only trying to clarify.

 

[Lucille]

They did not approve it, it appears from what I see of your excerpt ("just because you register and pay does not necessarily mean you have been approved for an account") the OP was supposed to wait for approval. His use of the enhancement prior to approval was against their TOS, that was on him.

 

[KORBIN5895]

The issue doesn't seem to be the enhanced account. They never bothered to even contact PayPal during the dispute and the op got his money back.

I usually agree with what you say Nick but you are overlooking the fact that he lied to get his original fee back. That's a big step over the line if you ask me.

 

[Focal]

I'm not looking over that fact, I even said I don't condone it, but it still doesn't negate the original complaint. That is a separate issue and often times separate issues are used to override the original complaint. I still see a valid complaint up until that point. If KS is allowing members to use their enhanced account before it is approved, then that is still a flaw on their part. The TOS leaves a cloud of confusion of what forfeits money and what qualifies as a refund.