Inquiry John Farr dealings and husbandry practices.

[Jermosh]

Long time Lurker.

I am having some serious and concerning communications with an Ex-customer of mine. I will add the screen shots of our communications and will end with something about myself, I am trying to stay non-bias as possible. So please ask questions and make your own conclusions. Looking back I see some mistakes I made in not seeing stuff early.
Precursor to this communication(I inked out the phone# for privacy on his part), I was vending at the 2014 Tucson Reptile Show 10-4/5, John Farr was there as well selling his snakes, I assume Boas since those are the only ones he commented on. He was interested in the HD Burm cross, as were a lot of people. This was my very 1st show vending, and there is no fair market value since they are rare and only a handful of states, in the end I just want my babies to go to good homes, and I felt having no price would let me vet some of families, this was my mistake, but I corrected it on the next day.

 

[Jermosh]

Note we traded on 10-18, cash, these are hatchlings that have been in a snake bag and container. They will be snippy, I gave a Husbandry doc, saying that some need time and to feed and look for them coming up to you for food, I call it the Food Dance.

 

[Jermosh]

Note, we traded on Oct18.

 

[Jermosh]

Some of the emails did get out of sequence. I was responding my phone and was attempting to respond while emails were coming in.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

So, he admitted to having an infestation *before* he got your animals? And, even if they somehow did have mites, he didn't quarantine?

Man, that makes me sick he just put them down instead of treating the mites. So few dwarf burms in the states, and he puts a pair down.

 

[Jermosh]

Me and My POV

I am new to breeding, but am a long time owner. I have always been interested in breeding, but its never been a priority, when they added my Species of choice to the Lacy Act as injurious, I felt compelled to start a breeding project in AZ and needed to act on it. I brought in a Half Dwarf group from Art in Scales out of Colorado Springs in Feb/March of 2012. I really love Burms, and I love every part of them, but the size is a concern for reputable keepers, HDs fills this concern.

Fast forward to this season, I got my 1st clutch, and I was ecstatic. I kept watching the eggs, kept monitoring the incubator, I even talked to them. I am a dabbler in Electronics so I made a remote sensing and talking system, cheezy yes, but it was fun and I did get some good data.

I am not in this to make money, I am ecstatic so far with my season. I was able to demonstrate and get people excited about something I helped made, if I could I would give them all away, but free does not give equity, and that is needed to make sure they treat the animal well.

I will also admit that mistakes happen, good keepers get mites, they come from shows, other animals, rescues, or even the wild. But this is why I keep a abatement protocol in place, I leave simple pest strips on the floor near the doors, I dust with Sevin in inaccessible areas, and I will treat wood with PAM along with unknown aged substrate. None of the animals ever come into contact with any of these items. These are not protocols I just made up, I work with a large Herp society(Phoenix Herp Society), the curators, president, and other keepers have well over a century of proper keeping. In fact one retic is over 28yrs old, giants do not get that age by poor husbandry. So I learned from them, and I also learned from other keepers, vetted of course. I did add double sided sticky tape to trap any that might have gotten through.

I will admit that the group of HDs that I got in, did have mites. Art in Scales had an outbreak, and profusely apologized. It happens, I use PAM and those animals did get a beta dine and dawn bath, and Front Line. So my reptile collection has been mite free since March '12. I have not added any new animals to my collection recently.

John Farr also met with me face to face at the Phoenix show 11-15/16, he was vending, but I did not have time to see his booth or what he was vending. He was very cordial, we small talked and he seemed generall happy with the babies.

I have talked to my other customers and they all said health and temperament were spot on. I rechecked with a magnifying glass all my babies, I checked all tubs, and I checked all the double-sided tape. I am not showing any signs of mites. But as again, I am open to mistakes happening, I am open the possibility that a lone mite got on one baby, but I was giving a no real time to rectify anything.

I admit I took this very personally, and I really want the best for my babies that I produce. I am utterly appalled that someone would non-humanely put down a snake for mites. Yes IBD and FDLV are serious concerns with mites, but they are EXTREMELY RARE and IBD is fast on pythons, FDLV would have certainly showed up in my collection by now. My animals see their vet regularly.

I have talked to PHS and a friend Nate who is associated with AHA. Both of these are reputable and large Herpetology societies. They are both in agreement that something needed to be said and this was in no way right reponse.

Looking back, I should have seen red flags when he said he froze snakes, I honestly thought it was so obscene it was a joke. I admit I was not good at vetting this person. I have a Professional job and work a lot of hours, and I volunteer a lot as well. My mistake, and I let my babies down.

Thank you for your time. I will be contacting him about this communication.

 

[Jermosh]

So, he admitted to having an infestation *before* he got your animals? And, even if they somehow did have mites, he didn't quarantine?

Man, that makes me sick he just put them down instead of treating the mites. So few dwarf burms in the states, and he puts a pair down.

To be clear, these are Half Dwarfs, they are a cross mainland and dwarfs. But yes, both are very rare.

 

[Jermosh]

I sent him a note to please communicate and bring his POV to this thread. I was also clear I would post any further communication here as well.

 

[HamCamaro]

That is pretty ridiculous. Sorry you had to deal with this Jon. But, there are a lot of ignorant shady people in and out of the hobby. You did your best to vet who your babies went to. However, you cannot predict when people will be completely irrational. Good on you for getting the word out that this is obviously someone to avoid.

 

[AndyUltimateReptiles]

This exchange makes me sick to my stomach. I don't think the buyer has really any idea how a mite's life cycles works or what it takes/how long it takes to treat them. Also, to simply put a snake down by putting it in a box with ice...I'm glad I can't send Burms over state lines. It means I won't have to deal with him. Also, to have zero quarantine (especially after just taking animals to a show and picking up new animals and tossing everything together), the guy is seriously lucky he hasn't dealt with this before. Every new animal and every animal taken to a show should undergo a treatment/qt upon return.

Jon, I think everyone that knows you and has dealt with you can easily see you always put the animals first. Unfortunately you sometimes have to deal with a few bad apples.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

So many NOOBS... So much information out there, and still a John Farr is out there!


#blownaway

 

[ElexisC]

I love how he says in a later email "I've been using the same bag of aspen for my milk snakes and they don't have mites" But before that says he picked up a bag of mulch.. I would ask for proof he did kill the animals although he could easily say he threw them away since he said "trash pick up is tomorrow" Who puts a snake down for mites? and so cruelly?? I think hes just trying to get his money back. Has no quarantine in place. So those pythons most likely got mites from his other snakes and is blaming you for his snakes having them. If you and no one else has mites they are not from you. I just picked up a female on the 16th, she was infested with mites, Shes still alive and doing well in quarantine. How could someone so callously kill a snake over mites?? I hope no one sells to him or buys from him every again!

 

[Jermosh]

I am open that I could have given him a snake with a mite. Mites happen, its part of dealing with all animals. This is why I have protocols in place, because infestations don't happen to good owners IMHO. I was at the show with my animals Oct 4/5, but I treat the substrate, and treat my table clothes. FOR THIS VERY REASON.

That said, I have no signs of mites, which I was not my only intent to really try to defend myself, but to help him try to find the source better.

 

[Pasodama]

Who really knows where the mites came from.
However, via Mr. Farr's communications, it is clear that he does not exercise proper quarantine procedures, with newly arrived/acquired reptiles, nor isolation, or disposal, or treatment of boxes/items that newly arrive at his home/facility. So, it is not difficult to assume the mites' origin was with him.
Again, who really knows.

Cannot believe Mr. Farr put the snakes down simply for mites ... and in such an inhumane manner!

'Course, no proof of mites, or deceased snakes, have been provided either.

Personally, at least with what has been posted thus far, I feel that nothing is owed to Mr. Farr.
It appears that he has proven nothing (other than his deplorable qt practice, etc.).
Also, after agreeing to wait re. temperament and after his (later) report of mites, I do not see where he requested a refund. Instead (per his communication), HE chose, almost immediately, to put the snakes down. His choice, his fault/error.

 

[Snake-Queen]

That is crazy! To freeze snakes because of mites!

I treat all incoming snakes for mites, regardless if I see any or not; I also treat the snakes I've taken to shows too. I like preventive measures, instead of war.

If he normally breeds boas, I will be on the look out.

 

[lillyorchid]

How sad. Mites are so easy to treat and get rid of. No need to kill off any snakes because of mites. Mites happen. Prevent a mite is great to use.

 

[snakesareawesome]

Thanks for posting this, I certainly would not want to deal with this person.

 

[Teatime]

Wow, I'm guessing medical attention is also out of the question since this person freezes snakes for something as treatable as mites. I know that treating them is a big pain since you have to treat all your snakes, but it's easily preventable as you mentioned. Also, for someone as experienced as he claims to be I'm surprised that he gave them absolutely zero time in quarantine.

 

[Jermosh]

Well I tried to contact him but he refuses to open the email. If someone has the gumption or time, please do contact him and let him know about this thread.

I have contacted the local Herp Society, and will be contacting Vet, Reptile Shops, and the Show Coordinators and make them aware of this practice. I want to give him the chance to clarify or present his POV.

I also want to appologise for including Dr Funk in the one email screen shot, I should have smudged it out. I know Dr Funk and we are connected through PHS as he is their on staff USDA vet. He is fantastic Vet and would in no way or form condone this type of behavoir, if he suspected the extremely rare IBD, he would take a simple blood test, and then and only then recommend humane euthanasia in the case of Python, and extreme quarentine for Boa in the least.

John Farr does have an account here:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113332&highlight=John+Farr

 

[JColt]

I'm sure he opened it and just playing childish game. Looks like a few of his post's are claiming some type of wrong did to him. He sounds like a passive type scammer to me.