Bad Guy Jim Flaherty of the Chameleon Company

[LinP]

If fauna & Jim are giving the "OK" above FWC to release non native species into the wild here in the U.S, please sign me up for a panda and a koala goodnight everyone

 

[LauraB]

Firstly, What is "faRcebook"? Is that supposed to be a "cute" catchphrase?

Nope, just my own catchphrase. You don't like it, oh well. My interpretation only.

Don't know if you're aware but Chameleon Company is also on chameleonfurms
You may not be familiar with it, it's kind of like fauna.. A lil more modern, it's actually Not on FACEbook.

LOL, I'm well aware Jim/Chameleon Co. is a member of Chameleon Forums. I know exactly what it is, having been a member for many, many years. And you? How long have you been a member?

It seems you are bashing any members that have FACEbook accounts..? So you are trying to say we are not welcome here?

Not at all. You are certainly welcome here. I only said; and I thought I was clear; that if you wanted honest, unbiased and proven advice on cham husbandry that FB was NOT the one and only source you should be trusting or following, given the drama and kid stuff. Surely you understood the first time I stated that.

You know that does include "puppet master Jim" right?

LOL, so you following all the others with the "sock puppet", "puppet master" crap. 'Nuff said. And yeah, I don't think Jim should have just assumed you were a sock pocket, and stated as much.

(I think your member numbers will drop by At least 50% considering FACEbook is the Only reason This Thread is Here & the only reason people know This site exits anymore.)

Yeah, whatever. This site has been here far longer than any poser FB cham site. And I think the word you were looking for was "exists", not "exits".
As far as membership dropping 50% because you, a new member with a handful of posts claims same? LOL. You came here from FB and joined, right? Membership up. But thanks for the heads up and your premonition.

If you've been around as long as some of us here, you will actually see that so much FB crap ultimately ends up right back here because there is bias, drama and personal agendas on FB. Fauna is credible, reliable, what happens at Fauna stays at Fauna, no posts are removed and members are only banned when the violate the BOI terms, not because they are not part of a popularity clique.

Anyways, I'm not the one on trial here, I didn't release any animals.

Nor did Jim. They did escape and he never denied that. Perhaps you should not just jump on a bandwagon looking for approval & combat without first reading.

*Also, I for one am Not saying they're "invasive" I'm saying he broke the law regardless. And he hoped the animals would freeze to death..Because That's real humane.

What law exactly? Because some of his animals did inadvertently escape? You are saying he intentionally broke the law? If your dog jumps the fence you thought would contain him, can I cite you for breaking the law? Even if your dog doesn't bite or injure or even pee on anyone? Can I please still call the law because your dog jumped the fence? After all, there ARE laws. Personally, I think cats are more harmful to native wildlife than any chameleon will ever be. Where are the laws governing them?

"He hoped the animals would freeze to death"

He hoped they would freeze to death? I can't even believe you said that.

Stepping away now because the sheer idiocy of some posts here will surely get me banned if I don't, lol.

 

[EdwardK]

We are talking about an animal from a completely different continent here.

All of the examples I provided are not native to North America. They were all introduced.

Of course whenever a blanket statement is said there can always be a way around it if you want to ignore the main point. A textbook can say that all Coleoptera have chewing mouthparts, but in reality it is not true. Is it true in virtually all cases? Yes. That is the point here.

Correct but the exceptions are actually the species that end up being invasive. There are far more organisms that have become naturalized and not been an negative impact than there are those that have. The difference is that the invasive species are the ones that get all of the press. I can add to the list.. for example chicory (Cichorium intybus) is another commonly naturalized plant that is not invasive in most of its introduced range as it is restricted to roadsides or other highly disturbed sites.

Your argument also ignores the introduced species that not only are not invasive but are actually beneficial to native species. For example nonnative Viola species are commonly found in yards where native Viola species are generally not well adapted and in return these non-native Violas are actually supporting native butterflies including a number of endangered hairstreaks. Or we could consider broad leaf plantain which is not only introduced but can transform degraded sites for colonization by other plants including natives as its can grown and breakup hardpan soils.....

If you truly think panther chameleons being in the wild of Florida is not bad, I give you the same challenge I said to Jim a few pages back. Go to your local ecology conference and tell them this tale of chameleons escaping into the wild and obviously surviving for multiple years. Heck, call your local Professor of Ecology. Then, post their response. I work with people that fit this description, and I guarantee you that you would bet you could see steam coming out of their ears if they saw something like this.

What makes you think that I haven't had this kind of conversation with that kind of people? I've had it as I can readily demonstrate by the simple fact that all of my examples were off the top of my head. I simply did a little extra research to be sure of my examples.

Actually your challenge is pointless. Your attempting to infer that a species is going to be a problem based on an opinion without any corroborating evidence. It is the whole attempt to prove a negative fallacy. I haven't taken the stance on whether the panther chameleons are invasive or not, I'm simply correcting a misconception.

Ed

 

[robmd1]

Nope, just my own catchphrase. You don't like it, oh well. My interpretation only.

LOL, I'm well aware Jim/Chameleon Co. is a member of Chameleon Forums. I know exactly what it is, having been a member for many, many years. And you? How long have you been a member?


Not at all. You are certainly welcome here. I only said; and I thought I was clear; that if you wanted honest, unbiased and proven advice on cham husbandry that FB was NOT the one and only source you should be trusting or following, given the drama and kid stuff. Surely you understood the first time I stated that.


LOL, so you following all the others with the "sock puppet", "puppet master" crap. 'Nuff said. And yeah, I don't think Jim should have just assumed you were a sock pocket, and stated as much.


Yeah, whatever. This site has been here far longer than any poser FB cham site. And I think the word you were looking for was "exists", not "exits".
As far as membership dropping 50% because you, a new member with a handful of posts claims same? LOL. You came here from FB and joined, right? Membership up. But thanks for the heads up and your premonition.

If you've been around as long as some of us here, you will actually see that so much FB crap ultimately ends up right back here because there is bias, drama and personal agendas on FB. Fauna is credible, reliable, what happens at Fauna stays at Fauna, no posts are removed and members are only banned when the violate the BOI terms, not because they are not part of a popularity clique.

Nor did Jim. They did escape and he never denied that. Perhaps you should not just jump on a bandwagon looking for approval & combat without first reading.


What law exactly? Because some of his animals did inadvertently escape? You are saying he intentionally broke the law? If your dog jumps the fence you thought would contain him, can I cite you for breaking the law? Even if your dog doesn't bite or injure or even pee on anyone? Can I please still call the law because your dog jumped the fence? After all, there ARE laws. Personally, I think cats are more harmful to native wildlife than any chameleon will ever be. Where are the laws governing them?

He hoped they would freeze to death? I can't even believe you said that.

Stepping away now because the sheer idiocy of some posts here will surely get me banned if I don't, lol.

looks like someone needs get out more

 

[robmd1]

also Laura while you act all knowing , it wasn't her that said they would die freezing that would be your its everyone but him syndrome, so I guess the one your really laughing at is jim . pttf refer to my last comment

 

[DavidBeard]

I'm not going to go through the entire thread and find the post but Jim claimed he was examined by FWC, and issued a permit (he mentioned something about the law stating he could not "release" or whatever verbiage you wish to use non-native species *without a permit*). If Jim is claiming to have said permit, or any documents backing up his claims that he was investigated and given the all-clear.....it should be fairly easy to post such evidence. This is going on the 3rd or 4th time I've brought it up.....and he still avoids it by saying to "call FWC." Sorry, you claimed to have the permits, YOU post the proof.

 

[jishillencik]

I don't do FarceBook ...

Say what??

 

[jishillencik]

I've read through this thread a couple of times and I'm not a chameleon person and I've never done any sort of transaction with any of the players here...

I might consider buying into the issue if there was proof that this was not a one off issue. Do you have proof that the chameleon clutches were allowed to escape over the course of several years or is that all conjecture?

There have been claims that the chameleons were deliberately allowed to escape as a source of potential animals to sell. I have yet to see that information proven. I've seen a lot of conjecture and accusations but no proof.

As I commented earlier, I have to admit, that I don't have a favorable opinion of any of the continual players in this and the other related thread. There is a lot of taunting and accusations back and forth between some of the players in this thread including the thread's namesake and I'm pretty confident that if I ever decide to get into panther chameleons I know a group of people I'm likely to avoid for information and sales.


If seeing Jim's permit is such a bother for anyone in this or any another thread, file a FOIA request with Florida wildlife. There isn't any reason anyone who really wants to see can't get a copy of it. Those who want to see it would have the answer and it takes all of the accusation and taunting out of the picture.

Ed

I've already touched upon this in post #327

I do not have physical proof, all I have are Jim's words. His statemen's contradict themselves far too often in my opinion.

 

[juliasara]

Say what??

You just proved her point lol the screen shot you posted clearly shows the last time she posted something on facebook was in january of 2014, well over a year ago! That being said, what does that have go do with Jim and this thread?

 

[jishillencik]

You just proved her point lol the screen shot you posted clearly shows the last time she posted something on facebook was in january of 2014, well over a year ago! That being said, what does that have go do with Jim and this thread?

Lol I proved she has an active account. Privacy settings can prevent me and others from seeing recent posts. In addition, that is just her personal page, it does not imply that she is not active on friend's pages or group.

And no, it does not have anything to do with Jim. She is abrasive and a sticks to her guns saying all this is dumb. I was going to send her a friend request haha.

 

[Guy Castro]

Well those are only "not harmful" because they prey on other nonnatives, like ants and termites.

Any nonnative consuming resources meant for natives is wholly harmful, even if it isn't causing extinctions.


Also as far as honey bees... feral honeybees are EXTREMELY harmful to native pollinators. There are literally thousands of native Hymenoptera which are outcompeted by honeybees, which are thought to have originated in Southeast Asia.

I just gave you 3 examples(and there are more), of "non-native" species from a diff continent that are not an issue,and now you're going to try to side step it, and make excuses, because your initial statement was wrong.

 

[Guy Castro]

There are honey bees on the islands too... OH MY GOD!!!

 

[Guy Castro]

You need to watch the documentary on Asian carp, if you need something devastating to complain about.

 

[robmd1]

You just proved her point lol the screen shot you posted clearly shows the last time she posted something on facebook was in january of 2014, well over a year ago! That being said, what does that have go do with Jim and this thread?

I think that he proved she doesn't tell the truth, she said she doesn't face book which would lead one to think she doesn't even have a face book , she will sit and lie about being on face book I wont take her blind claims against jim serious anymore

 

[WebSlave]

Also as far as honey bees... feral honeybees are EXTREMELY harmful to native pollinators. There are literally thousands of native Hymenoptera which are outcompeted by honeybees, which are thought to have originated in Southeast Asia.

Well gee, I guess all the hype about reduced honey bee populations being devastating to food crop production (taking a BIG picture view) is all just hype and bs then. Who knew?

 

[Lucille]

She is abrasive and a sticks to her guns

She is intelligent, analytical, thoughtful and direct. And yes, she sticks to her guns. Strong women seem to make some men insecure.

Seriously, some here have a bad case of 'mights'. Escaped critters might (insert whatever sky-is-falling scenario). Someone who has not posted on FB for a year might have hidden posts.
Really, that's your best shot?

 

[jishillencik]

She is intelligent, analytical, thoughtful and direct. And yes, she sticks to her guns. Strong women seem to make some men insecure.

Yes, I am insecure and have since backed off from my position regarding this issue. Just kidding I was being sarcastic.

And if you would like an explanation, I was alluding to the fact that I respect her and her position, just pointing out a dumb thing (in my opinion) she said.

You seem to have no problem scrutinizing my comments, do I make you insecure???

 

[Herpguy11]

Well gee, I guess all the hype about reduced honey bee populations being devastating to food crop production (taking a BIG picture view) is all just hype and bs then. Who knew?

That is an economic issue, and COMPLETELY different from an ecological one. There are thousands upon thousands of native pollinators in the United Stated. The only advantage nonnative honey bees have for food production is that they can be controlled, and have much larger quantities of workers in a hive than native species.

 

[sapphira80]

Okay, maybe someone can ask an ecology professor about this (I don't personally know one), but if I remember correctly from biology/ecology classes I took at university years ago, the gold standard of a species being "invasive" versus just "non-native" is the lack of predators in their new adapted environment. Chameleons natural predators include snakes, large birds, large lizards, wild cats, feral cats and dogs, etc... Florida is crawling with all of the above.



And besides that, a species isn't classified as invasive just by assumption or conjecture... Scientific studies are done where actual qualified people, trained in field studies and actual science, go out into the field and study the species in question.



Secondly, a non-native species has to be PROVEN (not potential conjecture) to harm their new environment, such as by displacing native species, or depleting the wild population of their new prey. For example, the Jackson's chameleon has been declared an invasive species in Hawaii because it feeds on a rare, endangered tree snail.



Like Ed said, the vast majority of non-native species are harmless, and a few are beneficial. Very few are harmful, but those are the ones we hear about on the news, like kudzu vine or the Burmese python.



Regardless it's a huge jump from a few escaped Furcifer pardalis that survived a cold winter, to an established, non-native population.



To my knowledge, Florida has some isolated pockets of three chameleon species (veiled, Jackson's, Oustalet's) that are currently being monitored and studied, and none have been declared an invasive species.

 

[EdwardK]

That is an economic issue, and COMPLETELY different from an ecological one. There are thousands upon thousands of native pollinators in the United Stated. The only advantage nonnative honey bees have for food production is that they can be controlled, and have much larger quantities of workers in a hive than native species.

Just an FYI, the whole impact of honeybees on native bees is not by any means a clear case or settled. You may want to obtain a copy of Paini, D. R. (2004). Impact of the introduced honey bee (Apis mellifera)(Hymenoptera: Apidae) on native bees: a review. Austral ecology, 29(4), 399-407. and read it over.

With respect to native pollinators, the loss of suitable nesting habitat and native flower diversity is a huge driver of population decline. Prices of crops like corn and soybean have driven the conversion of even marginal land and reduced the use of unplanted strips and fallowing which support native been populations.

Check out

Kim, J., Williams, N., & Kremen, C. (2006). Effects of cultivation and proximity to natural habitat on ground-nesting native bees in California sunflower fields. Journal of the Kansas Entomological Society, 79(4), 309-320.

Kwaiser, K. S., & Hendrix, S. D. (2008). Diversity and abundance of bees (Hymenoptera: Apiformes) in native and ruderal grasslands of agriculturally dominated landscapes. Agriculture, ecosystems & environment, 124(3), 200-204.

Ed