Venomoid in/near Indiana?

[Arctophile117]

I was hoping anyone could refer me to a vet who does the venomoid operation in or near Indiana. Thank you in advance.

 

[BlueCrowned]

Creating venomoids is cruel to the animal and creates a false sense of security as the animal may still be able to envenomate you. Venomoids are banned in several countries due to ethical concerns.

 

[Donald C]

I would also avoid the venomoid route as the venom aides in the digestive process for some if not all venomous animals. It is not only a cruel treatment, it is also detrimental to the health of the animal.

If you want to get into venomous, just commit to it and get the proper training if you don't already have training.

 

[Arctophile117]

I've already read up on updated info on the matter, (to include lingering hazards to both handler and animal).

Look, if you aren't willing to bring yourselves up to date, that's your concern. But at least research it (by that, I mean actually read multiple sources and look at multiple sides of the arguement) before just tossing an opinion out there.

Now that we have THAT out of the way, does anyone have the info I requested?

 

[Arctophile117]

Actually, maybe I SHOULD clarify something, since this is already creating an argument. I require that said veterinarian uses the Hoser method, or any expounded upon the Hoser method. Thank you in advance.

 

[Donald C]

There is a reason that very, very few veterinarians perform this operation. I believe that you can count them all on one hand. Bottom line, is that very few vets would perform any sort of venomoid operation, due in part to the liability issue with working on venomous and in part due to the delicacy and undesirability of the operation.

Also, I would be very dubious of anything that Raymond Hoser has espoused or touched, were I you.

 

[Arctophile117]

Naturally, you wouldn't. Nevermind that it has been successfully replicated time and again, by different veterinarians since, oh, I don't know, 2004 or 2005? And had resounding success in rendering them relatively harmless, so long as standard precautions are taken until residues are gone (kinda reminds me of the warning the surgeon gave me before getting my vasectomy, how I need to be careful for so long afterward or I might randomly father a kid). Or the fact that science has already proven that venom isn't required by vipers for digestion, that the effect it has on breaking down tissues simply aids the snake in being able to swallow even larger meals, compared against, say, pythons or colubrids of similar size. Also nevermind that a reduced, eventually negated risk of envenomation would obviously make handling one of these snakes (when handling is necessary - since I propably needed to add THAT "disclaimer") much less dangerous for not only the handler, but also the snake, due to reduced chance of accidentally hurting the animal with the very tools used to defend yourself with when handling it.

I didn't expect to find many vets, let alone one near me, given the extreme danger being a liability. I asked on here because I was HOPING to get helpful info, while instead I'm getting roadblocks by good ol' boys who percieve someone as being recklessly naive of the lethality of such a beautiful creature, and of the respect due it for exactly that reason (it being a living, breathing thing goes without saying).

On this note, I distinctly remember that as I was making my account on this forum, a moderator was running a survey, asking members' general views of this site. He blatantly stated his concern that perhaps the older and longer-time members are running off new members due to an "old club" mentality. I am beginning to see why he was concerned.

 

[Arctophile117]

Oh, and by "relatively harmless," I'm referring to the size of their fangs. Allowing a monitor to latch on without instinctively pulling back (possibly rupturing its jaw by ripping imbedded teeth out) is quite painful. I'm sure something the size of, or larger, than cat claws in an animals jaw would pose its own danger.

 

[Donald C]

Potato, poh-ta-to. One person's ol' boys club is another person's disapproval of intent to have performed a medically unnecessary and non-beneficial (if not harmful) surgical procedure upon any animal.

Putting an animal through such an ordeal simply for the owner's benefit hits as highly unethical and is poor husbandry in my personal opinion.

 

[Arctophile117]

And that is YOUR opinion, although I can't see where husbandry comes into play in this argument other than for just tossing out little "hot words" to possibly catch people's eye. Now leave me alone, please. At this point you're just harrassing.

 

[Arctophile117]

I'm not sure where husbandry comes into this argument, seeing as you know nothing of the gear, decor, safety features of my snake's enclosure, etc., except maybe to toss little "hot words" out there in order to catch people's eye. At this point, you're harrassing, so please leave me alone.

 

[Arctophile117]

Oops, I didn't realize that first one took. Sorry for the accidental spam, my phone is being slow at the moment.

 

[Donald C]

By husbandry, I am taking in animal health and well-being, not just enclosure and the rest. A venomoid operation requires delicate operation around other critical areas on the animal. Aside from any risk to the animal from an accident during the operation, there is the pain and suffering of the animal during recovery process, from a procedure that was medically unnecessary.

I am not jumping down your throat here, or attacking. I am just trying to explain how this is viewed by myself and the majority of the venomous keepers I know.

I really do recommend just investing the time in venomous training to gain experience if you are moving into venomous. Or, if you really must have venomoid, I do know that there were some animals that already had the operation for sale in the venomous classifieds a while back. A few may still be available.

 

[Arctophile117]

Ok, now that you explain that, yes, I was considering that as well. I'm prepared to equip my drawer with whatever additional antibiotics and whatnot that the vet would suggest. And I'd do a drastic bit of research on whoever I'm referred to, as there is the occasional quack.

I currently own a squam, and have done quite a lot of research on both sides of the coin. (The ethical issues I'm able to put any stock in center around possibly confusing a snake-loving future guest into thinking such a thing is ever safe; the issue regarding pain and suffering equates to a dog getting its balls lopped off, from what I've uncovered on updated venomoid techniques.) Seems the main ethical concern centers around a gross misunderstanding possibly developing within the general public, which I would agree would be cause enough for concern. My main concern here is, if I can (unfortunately) put my snake through a painful recovery period in order to avoid possibly hurting it over the course of its life by accident with my hooks and neck holds and whatnot, then it'd be a tradeoff. As I stand, even venomoid, it'd demand respect simply for the size of his teeth.

 

[Arctophile117]

So far as the operation itself, I've come to understand that the angle they go in from is much different - typically from within the mouth using a small incision on each side, snipping connective tissue atthe back of each gland and then at the duct in its front, clearing the duct to speed up residue depletion, then closing each wound, thus keeping the animal's teeth intact -
whereas they used to cut in from the sides of the head. Also, that this new method used to be done under cold torpor, though I've come to understand they have developed safer tranquilization methods since then.

 

[Arctophile117]

I'm not sure if I was clear enough, but yes, they remove the glands after disconnection. I understand the process has become similar to, say, getting your appendix out; I had very small incisions for a relatively large organ. I've read it's a similar job, in that respect.

 

[Arctophile117]

Oh, and again, caution still needs to be used. There would be residue still present, causing a lingering risk of envenomation, so I'd have to get it tested a few times afterward. So said vet would need to provide followup care, not just the procedure itself.

 

[Lucille]

Erin, I do not favor venomoids but that is not what you asked. To answer your question (sort of) have you checked with the Purdue Vet school? It may be that they can give you a couple of references.
I think the two major factors (to me) in creating a venomoid are trauma to the animal and as you say, lingering risk which may create liability and danger. I also think it might be worth a few minutes of your time to do a search and read up about absolute liability in reference to wild animals.
I would hope that any vet you approach would completely cover both factors in a conversation with you, giving you enough information to make a wise decision.

 

[Arctophile117]

Thank you for that lead, Lucille. And I am aware of "strict liability" (which, in a nutshell, says I'd be responsible for any injury caused by my snake due to it being a wild animal). I read up on those laws prior to ever having considered getting him.

 

[kazsmerfamily14]

I would also avoid the venomoid route as the venom aides in the digestive process for some if not all venomous animals. It is not only a cruel treatment, it is also detrimental to the health of the animal.

If you want to get into venomous, just commit to it and get the proper training if you don't already have training.

I

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