The PROOF that venomoid snakes are not safe!`

[shrap]

A buyer interested in purchasing a venomoid, a hot, a tarantula, or a cockatoo needs to balance the risk and take full accountability. This same equation goes to the people selling, servicing, or providing assistance; they too have to balance the risk they take and they need to be accountable for their actions.

So its kinda like picking up a prostitute, huh?

 

[hhmoore]

Christian,
You've acknowledged that elapids can regenerate & become "hot" again...even when the surgery is performed by an experienced vet. Couple that with Dr Sabatini's refusal to guarantee that it is impossible for the snakes he has fixed to produce venom, and it's pretty much time to give that argument a rest.
All Gary is saying is that the fact that these snakes are not guaranteed to be rendered forever harmless should be addressed with prospective buyers. I doubt he would care if it is by posting a video, or including a statement in the paperwork (preferably one that must be acknowledged by the purchaser).

 

[devenomized]

So its kinda like picking up a prostitute, huh?

please provide an intelligent response. look at other people's reply and then read yours. don't make yourself sound less intelligent. Gary can give you some tips on debating skills.

 

[bermrandy]

VENOMOIDS

I REALLY DONT THINK HE KNOWS WHAT HE MEANS SO DO US ALL A FAVOR AND STOP..

 

[shrap]

please provide an intelligent response. look at other people's reply and then read yours. don't make yourself sound less intelligent. Gary can give you some tips on debating skills.

It is called a joke. I was just trying to lighten things up a bit. So get over your high and mighty self, mmkay princess.

 

[devenomized]

Christian,
You've acknowledged that elapids can regenerate & become "hot" again...even when the surgery is performed by an experienced vet. Couple that with Dr Sabatini's refusal to guarantee that it is impossible for the snakes he has fixed to produce venom, and it's pretty much time to give that argument a rest.
All Gary is saying is that the fact that these snakes are not guaranteed to be rendered forever harmless should be addressed with prospective buyers. I doubt he would care if it is by posting a video, or including a statement in the paperwork (preferably one that must be acknowledged by the purchaser).

At least we are not presidential candidates or we'll have a lot more debating missing the facts. It's not about if I think reparative regrowth can happen on reptiles. It is a fact that venom duct's tissue can partially regrow only on Elapids according to Dr. Fry. That's a fact not a subjective statement unless Dr. is a storyteller which I highly doubt.

On the other hand, let's assume every snake devenomized by Dr. Sabatini including vipers which cannot regrow venom ducts to "reconnect" themselves start growing ducts like massive amounts of noddles inside their mouth. I don't know, let's say is some rare reparative regrowth response never seen in science, but the problem is one simple fact that your statement is missing from the beginning. If both venom glands are fully removed, Dr. Fry or any other expert would tell you, reparative regrowth on a missing organ is impossible. Then, what's your argument? Even if every snake devenomized by a licensed DVM has ducts coming out of their mouths and growing like weeds, they have no glands. I'm giving you plenty of assumption on venom ducts growing here

The only two facts you guys can rely on to continue making an argument are that DVMs just like Doctors could potentially fall asleep on the wheel and due to their malpractice cause a snake to continue producing venom and finally, the fact that Dr. Sabatini's "documentation" does not state that the animal you are buying will never inject venom or something along those lines.

I'm not the DVM and I'm not Venomoid, Inc, but I would like to know, when is it going to stop? You know the argument about "mistakes" doing medical procedures is always going to be consider a risk, correct? Ok, with that said, you know as well as the documentation provided by Venomoid, Inc clearly states the animal should be treated like a venomous snakes and the animal should be checked by a licensed vet yearly in case you don't know. Now, take your 1st argument about medical professionals potentially making a mistake and then top that with a document stating that the "buyer" should take care of their specimen like they would a hot snake and the buyer should check the animal yearly with a licensed DVM. Wouldn't you say that maybe those two arguments are more like a tatology? Maybe rather than coming to the forum to ask me questions, you should either contact Dr. Sabatini on the phone or better yet, come to Hamburg and speak to him directly. I'm giving you my opinion on your arguments and I can tell you he won't waste his time with the drama here in the forums. I like it on the other hand, and to be honest, the more we debate this, the more people will read about it and I'm happy with that.

I can debate this issue like a professional without insulting people or making ignorant statements and at the end of the day, I can respect and understand every opinion stated here. I don't have to agree, but I do understand.

 

[shrap]

Now I personally feel that devenomizing an animal is nothing but senseless butchering. There is nothing advantageous being done for the animal by performing the procedure, barring the rare occasion that it may need to be done due to injury. Otherwise it is being done for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.

I also dont agree with bobbing tails or cropping ears on canines or any other animal. That is just another example of senseless butchering of animals for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.

 

[hhmoore]

I've been staying out of these discussions for some time...and I'm not going to get mired in this one. You don't like Gary's arguments, and that is fine...but yours are no better (you continue to say the same things over and over, even while admitting that regeneration is possible). You say that that type of handling isn't done at shows, but it has been seen. Same old, same old.
You aren't going to change the minds of people that are against venomoids...any more than I could change the mind of somebody that is strongly in favor of them. As I've said before, I knew somebody that was nearly killed by a venomoid cobra...and he had documentation stating that the procedure was performed. (My understanding was that the surgery was performed by a vet. I'm not suggesting that it was Dr Sabatini - in fact, I'm fairly certain it was not).

 

[devenomized]

Now I personally feel that devenomizing an animal is nothing but senseless butchering. There is nothing advantageous being done for the animal by performing the procedure, barring the rare occasion that it may need to be done due to injury. Otherwise it is being done for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.

I also dont agree with bobbing tails or cropping ears on canines or any other animal. That is just another example of senseless butchering of animals for no other reason than to make them more appealing to humans.

Thank you for presenting your opinion. I can understand your point of view and I'm going to give you positive karma. I fully respect your prespective on venomoids as well as other "cosmetic" surgical procedures performed on animals.

Thanks again!

 

[devenomized]

I've been staying out of these discussions for some time...and I'm not going to get mired in this one. You don't like Gary's arguments, and that is fine...but yours are no better (you continue to say the same things over and over, even while admitting that regeneration is possible). You say that that type of handling isn't done at shows, but it has been seen. Same old, same old.
You aren't going to change the minds of people that are against venomoids...any more than I could change the mind of somebody that is strongly in favor of them. As I've said before, I knew somebody that was nearly killed by a venomoid cobra...and he had documentation stating that the procedure was performed. (My understanding was that the surgery was performed by a vet. I'm not suggesting that it was Dr Sabatini - in fact, I'm fairly certain it was not).

hhmoore,

I fully understand your opinion on venomoids and I agree that we'll disagree on multiple issues, but perhaps there might be a few that we find ourselves having a common understanding. The video posted on YouTube has incredible value for people like the person who posted above, Gary, and including myself. I think the video is a great educational tool for those against cruelty to animals, those who do not think venomoids are safe in general, those people who want to learn more about venomoids, and finally people who have venomoids or like venomoids. I think the video is something that we all agree serves a good purpose for multiple reasons, but the bottom line is that the video shows how unsafe the illegal practice of trying to surgically alter an animal really is.

A couple last points I would like to make in reference to your reply is that I will continue to handle small venomoids and perhaps our leucistic monocled cobra at hamburg show behind the table and aways from the reach of children or people. I will probably allow people to touch the snake's tail and as I hold any venomoid, I will clearly state why we are at the show, what the snake is, and why i'm able to hold it. If at any given time, the people running the show would like me or anyone holding a venomoid behind their tables like other people hold reptiles, to stop doing it, I will comply with the request. As far as holding a large gaboon, rattlesnake, or other large venomoid whose bite could inflict a painfull bite for myself, I would not do that. We have a beutiful pair of adult gabinos that have never tried to strike, but I wouldn't hold them because I don't want to get bitten by one of them not because they are going to inject venom.

Finally, the example of a venomoid cobra with documentation that injected venom, could you please provide some links to that incident with facts. I WILL include them with the video I plan to add on my website. Your point about the paperwork stating whatever is said and the fact the animal that obviously was not a venomoid, it's a horrible tragedy, a terrible mistake, and the business behind the sale of that animal should be liable in my opinion.

Let's remember that a venomoid is a venomous snake rendered non-venomous by a full adenectomy and a full ductectomy. A full adenectomy is NOT subject to reparative regrowth on any venomous snake; therefore, even though elapids could potentially regenerate venom duct tissue, if the full adenectomy was done, these specimens cannot produce and/or inject venom.

With that said, any venomous snake sold as a venomoid that is able to inject venom is not a venomoid, but rather a veterianrian malpractice at an attempt to do a full adenectomy that resulted in a venomous snake injecting and/or producing venom.

In conclusion, venomoids are snakes where NO mistake happens; however, if you read about my "risk management" post, every business as well as buyer holds a level of accountability and it is only my subjective opinion that buyers should mititigate any risk associated with a purchase of a venomoid from any licensed DVM and follow up some basic procedures to ensure their venomoids are checked only as a normal precaution.

I have checked venomoids produced by Venomoid, Inc by trying to milk them, study the attack behavior on live rats on multiple occassions, as well as sharing high quality photographs with other individuals who wanted to look at shots taken of a venomoids mouth.

I hope this gives you a little more information on my own subjective opinion and I know you are not going to agree with me or anything like that, but I hope I'm making myself more clear. If I have failed, all I can do is apologize for not being clear enough and you'll need to accept. If someone cannot accept, I suggest they read the serenity prayer for some guidance. (not religious of course)

 

[devenomized]

To Mr. Moore and other people reading this post,

I would like to say that my original post on Gary's discussion was simply to thank him for posting it here at FaunaClassifieds. The only reason I have been replying to members is because a discussion has started regarding venomoids. I think the discussion is separate from the objective of sharing the video and I will be happy to address any concerns regarding venomoids via email, telephone, or on a different post. I want to make sure people understand that I'm not trying to deviate attention from the importance of the video just so I can state personal opinions on venomoids.

Original post:

"I saw the video on YouTube. I sent a msg to ask permission to post it on my website. Great information. On behalf of Venomoid, Inc and Devenomized.com, we have signed the petition for illegal adenectomies and ductectomies by individuals who are not licensed DVMs.

Thanks for sharing the link Gary. "

 

[Junkyard]

I vote for Gary.

It is like owning a Ferrari and not allowing to engine to go over 3,500 rpms. Sure it is dangerous no matter what speed you drive, being on the road is dangerous, but what's the point of owning a Ferrari if you are not going to drive it at a speed the engine is designed for? To show off?

"Look, I have a 'venomous' snake I can hold."

 

[Gary O]

Look the point is that it can happen and you hold the snakes to make money. You targer people that should not be owning hots in the first place. You once said that you agreed that free handling at a show is wrong now you do it a lot. I am telling you. An adult gabby was being held with hands only and the person behind the table which was a younger male(under 35 or so) was telling people they could do this too. Blah blah blah.

There is a danger that never comes from the site or the venomoid incs helpers that should be spoken. These animals could become hot again. They should not be handled.

And I asked why the DR would not promise that they would never produce venom again. It is always said it is for legal reasons and would set him up for a lawsuit. then I ask why not put in the paper work they could become venomous again. that would give him a written out if it did happen. OH WAIT you would lose sales...........

 

[bermrandy]

VENOMOIDS

THE GLANDS AND SUCH ARE REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH MAN MADE MATERIAL THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE VENOMOUS AGAIN PERIOD..

 

[hhmoore]

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

 

[Gary O]

THE GLANDS AND SUCH ARE REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH MAN MADE MATERIAL THERES NO WAY IT CAN BE VENOMOUS AGAIN PERIOD..

Then why will a vet NOT put that on paper then?

 

[Gary O]

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

Man right on....

The thing I have been saying for years is that the vets that do do this to sell will not put on paper or their site that there is a chance for the snake to become venomous again.

Humans make mistakes. I hope for others lives that the vets that do this are perfect.

 

[devenomized]

Christian,
I understand what you are saying about video....I think. Here's the problem, though: You want to use it to warn people away from animals produced by nonvets, and toward V.Inc, by saying (in essence) This could happen to you, if you buy from somebody else. The obvious problem with that is that it seems you are saying that the same thing cannot happen with a void produced by an experienced vet...but, in practically the same breath, you admit that it can.

As for the other issue, I think we can all agree that if this procedure is going to be performed, it should be by a licensed vet experienced in the surgery (and, by necessity, one intimately familiar with the anatomies involved) - simply because that choice would be expected to provide safer, more humane conditions for the animal (including anesthesia, pain management, and infection control), and result in both improved survival rates AND greater safety to the end purchaser. That acknowledgement is a far cry from not recognizing & acknowledging the potential dangers, or being supportive of the theory & practice.

I agree. As far as the video, you are correct, my interest is to provide the general public that's interested in viewing my website with information showing how illegal devenomization have a high risk in rendering a venomoid a venomous snakes again. However, it is not my intension or plan to include that when surgical procedures are done by a licensed DVM to render a venomous snakes non-venomous, the animal has a potential to inject venom because the "experienced" DVM forgets or makes a mistake by leaving an organ intact or doing a partial adenectomy. Of course, i'm not going to include that. That would be the job of a DVM in training, a graduate student at a veterinary hospital, or a DVM that lack the experienced you are refering to in your 2nd parragraph. Basically, the video's objective will be simple. if you want a venomoid, get it from an experienced DVM and not someone who tells you is a venomoid when it's not. Would the video have a link to Venomoid, Inc? No. I worked with Dr. Sabatini running his table at the Hamburg show; however, my personal website has nothing to do with Venomoid, Inc. I support licensed DVMs providing reptile hobbysts with an alternative to hots. Unfortunately, the only licensed DVM that has no problem providing information about his business is Dr. Sabatini. If I knew of another DVM, he will be listed on my website too.

On my website, I've included links to other forums where potential buyers can read different opinions perhaps like yours. I don't have a problem with that. The buyer needs to make a decision and they hold a level of accountability.

 

[devenomized]

Man right on....

The thing I have been saying for years is that the vets that do do this to sell will not put on paper or their site that there is a chance for the snake to become venomous again.

Humans make mistakes. I hope for others lives that the vets that do this are perfect.

I"m sure Dr. Sabatini has consulted a lawyer about this issue. If you have any further questions, please ask him in person, call him, or send an email. I'm not his lawyer.

You need to do some reading about liability release forms so you stop repeating yourself.

I'll give you a good answer:

Let's assume I'm an experienced DVM. This is what I would do,

A) I will state clearly on my website that the animals are surgically altered and render non-venomous by a full adenectomy and a full ductectomy. Since we know it is fact and not fiction that if I remove the glands completely, the snakes cannot inject venom in their entire lifespan

B) I will show baby venomoids if allowed by a reptile show sponsor and only show them to an adult. I probably wouldn't take out aggressive snakes since I don't want to bleed all over the table. I won't allow people to handle them because some shows don't allow that and i don't the snakes they have not purchased to bite people.

C) I will provide a liability release form stating that the buyer is responsible to have the animal checked yearly by a vet, that my business recommends you treat the animal like a venomous snake, and that the animal should only eat prekilled or F/T. I will provide a 14 day guarantee that the animal will eat and if it dies, a full replacement will be given to the buyer.

D) I will microchip every snake

Umm sounds like what's already done by Dr. Sabatini doesn't it?

I'll tell you one reason. This world if full of crazy people and before I fall asleep doing a full adenectomy, i know that something crazier is most likely to happen before I fall asleep at the wheel. The risk is greater that we have an idiot out there who would purchase one of my snakes and take the microchip out. Then this idiot will put the microchip in the same type of venomous snake. A few years later, this idiot will take photographs, make a video, etc etc and then post them all over the internet and youtube. Then this idiot will file a lawsuit against me because the venomoid he purchased that has a microchip in it clearly injects venom and can kill rodents, cats, and even killed a cow. The idiot has everything well documented and plenty of proof showing the snake injecting venom, spitting venom, vomiting venom, venom is everywhere, it's like a hose. At that point, I would scan the snake and bang! it matches a snake i surgically altered 4 years before. At that point, I would be done! I would be on CNN, the local newspaper, and maybe loose my license.

However, if i have a liability release form stating step C, then mostly likely the buyer will have a lot of legal troubles because it was clear that he was told to take the snake to yearly visits, handle the snake like a hot snake, etc etc... This is an extreme example and likely never to happen, but I would bet there is a greater chance for that to happen than for me to have a few drinks, watch a movie, and at the same time perform a full adenectomy with my eyes closed.

Another example will be someone gets bitten by their Gaboon viper and the bite gets infected and they have an allergic reaction. The local hospital will treat the incident as a venomous snake and legally it will seem the buyer was bitten by a venomous snake. Even though no venom was injected, the buyer ended up at a hospital and claims some venom was injected and the reason no antivenom was required was because the amount was extremly small due to reparative regrowth. One things leads to another and i'm on CNN again. By now, i'm more famous than joe the plumber and joe only owes $450 in taxes while i'll have two lawsuits up my butt so huge that I wouldn't no what to do.

Why? All because I wanted to provide a document that stays your snake will never inject venom. So, I started thinking about all these remote possibilities and I figured it will be best to have a legal liability release form that I give every buyer to protect myself. I know I'll have many people that will claim I do this for one reason or another, but the fact is, I'm the only licensed DVM in the US who provides this alternative to any interested person where legal while there might be other people selling so called "Venomoids" and they don't have to face the same scrutiny that some people put me through. So, I ask myself, is it worth it to debate the issue when I already know people buy my products? is it worth to talk to the wall when the wall is not going to talk back? For Dr. Sabatini is not, but I don't have a problem debating the issue. I think debating the issue brings out more attention and if one more person decides than i'm totally off and wrong, then that's a win for you, but if someone who never knew about venomoids makes an accountable decision based on the information provided here and in other places, then that's a win for me.

I see debating at a win-win situation. so keep them coming




C)

 

[hhmoore]

Honestly, Christian, your depiction of the way an error could be made is pretty pathetic.

have a few drinks, watch a movie, and at the same time perform a full adenectomy with my eyes closed.

I'm not belittling any vet's abilities, but to suggest that they'd have to be impaired, distracted, or half asleep in order to mess up is ridiculous...and makes a mockery of this dicussion. I doubt that Dr Sabatini would suggest that this is anything but an intricate procedure that requires not only the aforementioned intimate knowledge of the anatomy of the venom production/conduction system, but the skill to carry out precise, detailed excision of said system. Reports I have read indicate that it is relatively easy for even a knowledgeable veterinarian to either miss a little, or remove some muscle/tissue that is not part of the target. While removing a little extra is no great problem, except for the need for more cosmetic filler, missing a little could be all the difference in the world to the keeper.