The PROOF that venomoid snakes are not safe!`

[Lucille]

The basic truth is that there is a horrendous risk a purported void can pose to life. There is no question in anyone's mind that a release of liability in void production is not geared toward the ordinary run of the mill business risks, it is for the purpose of shifting risk when the purported void is found to be hot and someone is injured or dies.

 

[devenomized]

The basic truth is that there is a horrendous risk a purported void can pose to life. There is no question in anyone's mind that a release of liability in void production is not geared toward the ordinary run of the mill business risks, it is for the purpose of shifting risk when the purported void is found to be hot and someone is injured or dies.

Ok. So, let's assume here again. (btw, has anyone contacted Dr. Sabatini? I posted his phone number and email address)

[Example only, once again]
The "release of liability" document requires a buyer's signature in order to buy a venomoid and it only serves one purpose which is shifting accountability to the buyer to protect the seller in case the buyer dies. yeah right, but let's assume that.

now, ask yourself a basic question. Do you honestly think that if a buyer dies that piece of paper will truly protect the seller? do you honestly think if someone drops dead tomorrow because two glands grew overnight that Dr. Sabatini is going to pull up his copy of the document in a court of law and say "haha in your face! you signed this paper and you can't do nothing!" Come on! Are you really that ignorant? Rather than wasting time here, why don't you Google some basic veterinarian malpractice laws or contact a lawyer.

Your assumption is just ridiculous; however, i would like to give you another example; one that's more quantitative rather than relying on subjectivity. Please follow me here...

Which has a lower risk level?

A) Reparative regrowth on elapids w/o a full adenectomy presents a level of risk because a tissue could reattach a duct to a fang. If a veterinarian makes a mistake and leaves a gland intact someone will get hurt or die. An experienced veterinarian has devenomized over 300 snakes per year since 2002 which brings a number to 1800, but today he makes a mistake and leaves both glands out. The DVM sells the snake to the buyer the day after the surgery (even though animals do not make it to buyer's hands until more than a few weeks after the surgery, but again, we are assuming). Buyer handles his snake and never signed anything because the DVM does not have any documents at all for people. Buyer dies.

B) If 300 snakes are sold by the DVM in letter A, we must assume that the number of venomous snakes sold by other venomous snake dealers is much greater. Let's say for every DVM selling venomoids, we have 10 venomous snake dealers (we know the ratio is 1 dvm vs. the rest of the venomous market here in the US). So now we have 300x 10 snakes sold per year and since 2002, we'll have a total of 18,000. That's 18000 thousand venomous snakes sold and kept by venomous snake keepers. If a DVM made a mistake operating on a venomous snake, wouldn't you say 18,000 buyers could potentially make a mistake too? if 18,000 people purchased venomous snakes in a 6 year period, I'm only assuming but I think at least more than one got tagged and died based on simple statistics.

Is option B less risky than option A? or is option A the choice with a much higher risk level? Of course, the biggest difference is that the buyers that keep hots won't handle the venomous snakes while the void keepers will touch them every day. Even if we assume that, one person drops dead based on a veterinary malpractice vs. maybe more than one dying because it is more likely that 18,000 people will make more mistakes than 1 person.



----------------

Nobody wants anyone to get hurt or die here, but i'm just showing you how keeping venmous snakes regardless how careful you are has a much higher risk than a veterinarian malpractice. I see more posts on KS about people getting tagged by venomous snakes and to my knowledge in 6 years, i have not seen a single case where a venomoid killed someone.

Now, does this mean that venomous snake keepers have a higher risk tolerance? does this mean that venomous snake keepers are not concerned with their safety and others? Of course not. They made a decision based on "risk management" and their acceptable risk was to keep a venomous snake by following basic procedures and standards used by all if not most venomous keepers. So, how come we do not ask venomous snake dealers to provide documentation to buyers stating that if they do not properly follow some basic guidelines, the snake will kill them. Why don't we ask them to post that on their websites stating that it is low and maybe unlikely but as a buyer, you will make a mistake and die. Why ? Why can we ask Glades, Diamond Reptiles, or our friend Al Cortiz to publish that on their websites?

Are we really being fair here? or are the opinions expressed by those individuals opposed to the venomoid practice targetting the venomoid dealers ONLY?

Please elaborate.

Also, can I have an update on the cobra that bit someone and some links to that incident as well as facts? Can I have links to the reports mentioned on previous posts? Can someone tell me what Dr. Sabatini said when you called him ? come on guys!

 

[hhmoore]

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

 

[Gary O]

Oh to let you know Al does publish that venomous nakes are dangerous and can and will kill.

But Al also is not taking a deadly animal and then telling somone this one is harmless now 100% by this one.

When you buy a venomous snake you know you are getting a deadly animal.

You on the other hand are selling animals that you are telling people are 100% HARMLESS.

I refuse more venomous sales a year then I sell. Ask anyone that buys off me how hard it is to get a hot from me.

in your terms you are saying this person is not doing it so why should I. Becuase IF you are wanting to get ALL the facts out then do it. if not then don't but fact is that if the Vet messes up then the snake can become hot again................ the people should know this.

 

[Gary O]

OH and Christian I was going to stop by the table last time I was there. But you guys behind the table were to busy handling an adult gabby.................. Turned me off becuase you told me in the past you did not agree with treating voids different then hots.

 

[Gary O]

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

Thats the thing though everytime someone says something Christian wants a link. Link me to proof. There is proof in thei vid that a void is hot again.

I am telling you there is stuff in the orks to record more stuff so that it is down on paper.

 

[devenomized]

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

Mr. Moore! Unacceptable! I want the links now Hey, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if you can get the links, I will post htem on my website. Another reason why I haven't post the video is because I updated my PC and I need to install Flash to publish it.

 

[devenomized]

Thats the thing though everytime someone says something Christian wants a link. Link me to proof. There is proof in thei vid that a void is hot again.

I am telling you there is stuff in the orks to record more stuff so that it is down on paper.

Gary, there is no such things as the "void is hot again". If the snake can inject or produce venom is not a venomoid dude!

Plain english: full adenectomy + full ductectomy = venomoid which means no venom; however, malpractice = venom. A snake that can partially inject or produce venom is a sad attempt at doing a full adenectomy and/or ductectomy.

 

[devenomized]

Oh to let you know Al does publish that venomous nakes are dangerous and can and will kill.

But Al also is not taking a deadly animal and then telling somone this one is harmless now 100% by this one.

When you buy a venomous snake you know you are getting a deadly animal.

You on the other hand are selling animals that you are telling people are 100% HARMLESS.

I refuse more venomous sales a year then I sell. Ask anyone that buys off me how hard it is to get a hot from me.

in your terms you are saying this person is not doing it so why should I. Becuase IF you are wanting to get ALL the facts out then do it. if not then don't but fact is that if the Vet messes up then the snake can become hot again................ the people should know this.

I mentioned Al as well as the other dealers as examples and I'm not tryin to say they are doing something wrong. I'll say that before you start quoting me. You love doing that. I better never run for office because you'll have so much crap on me the way you sometimes take stuff out of context.

Gary, you are the exception and the example. You are the utopia of what the general public would want from all dealers to be. You've saved many lives with your approach. What else can I say?

YOu are 100% correct that if a "vet messes up then the sanek can become hot again". That's just like saying 1+1 = 2 man! Listen, when you call Dr. Sabatini or get a reply to his email, I'll be happy to discuss things with you. for now, you are letting me down because I can't believe you have time to type but you can't pick up the phone or send an email to wait for a response from the one and only person who can give you an answer, a partial answer, or tell you to piss off. YOu'll never know until you ask. Would you like to call me? very easy. call me now and we'll conference Dr. Sabatini. 1-888-DEVENOMIZED

 

[devenomized]

OH and Christian I was going to stop by the table last time I was there. But you guys behind the table were to busy handling an adult gabby.................. Turned me off becuase you told me in the past you did not agree with treating voids different then hots.

Gary

wasn't that a few years ago? is that really your excuse? seeing someone hold a gaboon viper turned you off so now you can address a concern you have in person? come on man! i hope you're kidding. are you really that delicate? i saw a picture of you and you looked like you are much bigger than that my friend

 

[devenomized]

have you seen my karma rating ? LOL that's just ridiculous. am i really that bad?

 

[Gary O]

have you seen my karma rating ? LOL that's just ridiculous. am i really that bad?

I do not use the system.

 

[Gary O]

Gary

wasn't that a few years ago? is that really your excuse? seeing someone hold a gaboon viper turned you off so now you can address a concern you have in person? come on man! i hope you're kidding. are you really that delicate? i saw a picture of you and you looked like you are much bigger than that my friend

Again I will type it slow. Free handling a gabby at the hamburg show happened at a show THIS YEAR! THIS THIS YEAR! I was at Al's table and another person and I looked at what you or another helper was doing and shook are heads. Again it was THIS YEAR! One more time THIS YEAR.

Oh I have talked to the DR..... He said that yes they could repair and produce venom again if the surgery was not done correctly. This convo happened about a year and a half ago.

I ask you why do you hold the only vet that does this surgery one a level of never making a mistake. I ask you this not him. You seem to think he will never make a mistake. I say he is human and should let people buying these animals know that it could happen.

You are the one that comes to the forums to talk about this vet. So maybe he shoudl come here and chat............. Why in private?

 

[hhmoore]

have you seen my karma rating ? LOL that's just ridiculous. am i really that bad?

What is ridiculous? That one person saw fit to give one of your posts a negative rating?

 

[devenomized]

What is ridiculous? That one person saw fit to give one of your posts a negative rating?

I'm just sad I don't get any love here

 

[hhmoore]

lol
love might be a little strong...but I really don't mind you
(considering that we are on opposite sides of this fence, that's all I can give you)

 

[hhmoore]

I know where you stand, you know where I stand...as long as we aren't throwing things at each other, it doesn't matter

 

[devenomized]

Again I will type it slow. Free handling a gabby at the hamburg show happened at a show THIS YEAR! THIS THIS YEAR! I was at Al's table and another person and I looked at what you or another helper was doing and shook are heads. Again it was THIS YEAR! One more time THIS YEAR.

Oh I have talked to the DR..... He said that yes they could repair and produce venom again if the surgery was not done correctly. This convo happened about a year and a half ago.

I ask you why do you hold the only vet that does this surgery one a level of never making a mistake. I ask you this not him. You seem to think he will never make a mistake. I say he is human and should let people buying these animals know that it could happen.

You are the one that comes to the forums to talk about this vet. So maybe he shoudl come here and chat............. Why in private?

There is only one gabby that is an adult and it was sold a few weeks ago. That snake has not been at the hamburg show this year. However, our two gabinos have been at the show this year. They are subadults and look like gabbies, maybe that's what you are talking about. I remember holding our gabino earlier this year when the show closed and a vendor at the show wanted to take a photograph and I had the snake. Was the person wearing a hat? If so, that was me. Anyway, the bottom line is that if you saw me or someone behind the table I doubt the snake was within reach of potential buyers, children, or people looking at our table, but if you have a different opinion or a better perspective from where you were sitting, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are 100%. A viper was held during a show and it was yet another mistake. Has that happened again? probably no. why? because I personally do not want 2" fangs stuck in my hand or the same for someone looking at the snake.

As far as why Dr. Sabatini coming here, I think that's very easy to answer. He works a F/T job at a hospital, has a personal responsibilities and needs to keep up by himself with several orders for venomoids and respond to people who are interested buyers. I have been posting for about a week here and if I were the business owner, would that give me a benefit? no. why? because A) i know i can't change your mind and i'm not trying to and i also know you are not going to buy a venomoid. B) most people who respond negatively here are not ever going to buy a venomoid rather they want attention. With that said, if I were the owner i wouldn't waste my time, but i could possibly answer the phone and have a short to the point conversation. Since you already did that, then you got your answer.

Why do I post here? Actually, I like debating the issue in a professional manner and I don't let it get to me if someone makes allegations, calls me names, or anything like that. Trust me I had a person back in 2005 send me a PM making personal threats, but that's just silly. I like debating the issue because it gives the topic more publicity and since I know i can present my opinions very clear, then i have nothing to fabricate to give any false claims. The only thing I cannot answer and all I have been doing is giving you examples on how i would do it if i were a business owner are the questions you guys have about Venomoid, Inc, release of liability or whatever you want to call the document provided to buyers, and veterinary malpractice. I believe those are issues that to know the answer you have to contact the vet. Since you already did, then why continue debating them? What's your next question Gary?

btw, you never called me man! I would like to talk. I'm devenomized, I won't kill you.

it's a little late now, but give me call at
1-888-DEVENOMIZED

 

[devenomized]

I know where you stand, you know where I stand...as long as we aren't throwing things at each other, it doesn't matter

couldn't agree w/ you better mr. moore. maybe we can agree on other subjects

 

[creatism123]

i ran across this thread and have been debating wether to reply to it or not. i have no intention of getting into the venomiod verses non debate and this is my opinion and mine alone.

first off i trained for over a yr before i got into hots started with rattlers went to elapids. fell in love, to this day no python, corn, etc has ever come close to a cobra or mamba, just the way they act in a captive inviroment is just unreal. i especially love african naja. especially of all things spitters. when my ex wife told me she was pregnant i was working on getting a breeding sized male banded egyptian for my female. now than at this point the thought of a venomiod never crossed my mind. but along comes kid(not using him as an excuse, nore looking down at those that have kids and keep hots just not my thing.) so out went the collection. the way i keep my animals while safe and very secure. i did not trust it or my room to be kid proof so choose not to risk it.

well a couple of yrs go buy and i come upon a great deal on a venomiod monocled, and i thought to my self why not, i missed keeping cobras it was a good deal (for a venomiod) so i bought it. now it is time i explain my personal thoughts on keeping a venomiod and the things you really should do if you keep them. first thing is treat them as if they were venomous, this goes for housing access, handling etc. than you should test the venomiod every so often. my proceedure was twice a yr put a live rat in there let the snake bite it a couple of times pull out the rat and put in a cage leave over night. in the morning if its still alive you have a successful venomiod. if its dead well you know what happened *the whole point of this thread*

actually owned that same cobra for almost 6 yrs till last yr when work was sending me to hawaii for 6months and work was talking about making it permanant *thank god it wasn't* so i sold off all my stuff. in all that time every rat turned up live in the morning, my son who is now 4 and has no interest in the kingsnake that i got him, he wants to play with of all things my scrub( kids go figure) he is still alive and has shown that he can be trusted not to open cages etc., but for his safety and my peace i will only bring venomiods into my house/ at this point in time.

if you cannot handle venomous you have no reason owning venomiods period. venomiods just add a degree of, i hate to use this phrase but words fail me, but it adds a degree of peace of mindo or safety to the whole experiance, because lets face it wether you admit or not, or wether you have been lucky so far, accidents do happen, your kids will open that shed door while you are fighting a 7 ft really pissed cobra. they happen. for me venomiods are a viable option for those who have kept venomous but because of current circumstances can't ( assuming you are in the right according to you laws.)

now this is based on a surgery being down by a vet and both glands and ducts are removed using proper techniques and drugs.
i do not support home grown venomiods backyard surgeans etc. they should be shot or tortured depending on preferance.

owning a venomiod is in no means a way to get a hot and not treat it like one. i beleave getting a venomiod is a personal choice and by no mean excuses the person the of getting the proper training prior to getting one.

and in lue of the "rat test" you can always milk it to. i just have issues milking snakes. just a personal thing.