Bad Guy Josh@Outbackreps

[-C@jun-]

i bought a CH Female Orange Ghost from Josh on May 13th. I received it May 14th. His ad didn't say much but CH and that it had its first shed May 12th. I had contacted him for more info.

She is c.h so we do not know what the parents are other than ghost/het ghost

Thanks, Outback Reptiles
[email protected]
(703)365-2262 Office
(703)789-1697 Cell



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Message about: C.H ORANGE GHOST FEMALE!
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, May 12, 2010 6:41 pm
To: [email protected]

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What's the % dam and sire got pics?

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Sent 08:41 PM, May 12th, 2010 from I.P. Address 98.179.207.223/ip98-179-207-223.lf.br.cox.net

Well when we got her it seemed she had this sideways bone sticking out on the vent on either side. Seeing I'm new to owning herps as of May bought my first I didn't know what this was. I just figured she was young and needed to get a few meals in her and she would fill out. Kind of like a skinny person with there ribs showing. They need some food and to put on weight.

Today I'm going through the classified on here and I see this:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180025

So I contact Josh right away. He never informed me of any defects. I payed 300$ for a snake that was suppose to be perfect.
He tries passing off the "I don't even know if thats my snake" "She was fine when we sold her to you""if she had a kink i overlooked it". You could feel this sideways bone from day one! It was a lot more noticeable when we first got her. Now she has put on a little weight but still you can feel it.

So here I am today angry because now I may have to deal with potentially kinked offspring in the future from a 300$ investment. Which as told to me by seller "she is meant to refresh my bloodline". Refresh a bloodline with kinks I think he meant (j/k).

I dont know what you are feeling but the female you got was perfect. She did not have any kinks in her. A kink would not feel like a sideways bone in her, it would be a bump that you would have noticed instantly.
She is not related to the animals in the add, so the add has nothing to do with her all or a sudden having a kink.

If she had a kink we would have sold her as a kinked animal, we have nothing to hide..it happens. If she had a kink I would have expected you to notify us when you received her....


Quote:
Originally Posted by -C@jun-
Hi
I bought that female orange ghost from you on may 13th to Louisiana. Wish you would of told me that she had a kink in her tail! I have felt this sideways bone right in her tail since we got her! I figured it was because she was so young now after reading your ad I find out it is a kink! Should of sold that one as a "kinked animal"!

James Norred
Actually she is from a different clutch as I stated.
The new ghost that came in were from a shipment that arrived on 5/23/10
Your animal arrived on a different shipment as a unrelated animal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -C@jun-
Quote:
Originally Posted by -C@jun-
Hi
I have felt this sideways bone right in her tail since we got her! I figured it was because she was so young

James Norred
I didn't know! Obviously there from the same clutch. Again I didn't know. give me 5 minutes going get some photos!
__________________________________________________________
I do not need an attitude from you thinking you know it all. I could care less if you believe me or not, as it is the truth and I do not need to explain myself to you when you think you know it all already.

The animal was imported on a early may shipment, I believe she came in our May 3rd shipment. She had just had her first shed a few days before you bought her.

The kinked animals arrived on the later shipment, that arrived on May 21 as it was a Friday shipment.
I do not list any animals on her because kingsnake sells so much faster, and you dont get all the b.s and know it alls on kingsnake.. like what happens regularly on here.
I have 100's of adds, and post new ones every day, I did not want to waste a kingsnake add on a couple $75 snakes that had kinks when I could just post them on here. This way everyone can see my reply so I do not send the same email answering the same questions to 100 different people.
As for hiding something, you have to much time on your hands...I have nothing to hide. If she was kinked I would sell her as a kinked animal.
Selling a kinked animal for a non kinked price would only get me an xtra $10 on my commission...the time we have spent pm'ing back and forth about this has already taken more than $10 of my time, so it would make no sense for me to sell her as perfect if she was not.
As for the pics...I cant tell what it is.. they are way to bright, and blurry. I dont even know if that is the same snake.
If you are done acting like a know it all and throwing false acusations send decent pics of the animal. If for some reason she is kinked and I somehow missed it I will need pics where I can see it. If she is kinked send her back and we will give you a credit for her as long as she shows up in the same health as we sent her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -C@jun-
I don't believe that! Why didn't you list her on here? Seems you list others on here yet she was on kingsnake. You were hiding something.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink002.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink001.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink003.jpg
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I can give you a discount on a future order as a partial credit if you can send me better pics that show the kink, or you can send her back for a credit. I can see she is the same snake, but I still cannot make out the kink on her.
The choice is up to you, send her back for a company credit or if you can get a pic that is clear and shows the "kink" in her tail and I will give you a discount on your next order. She is a new bloodline/ c.h line of ghost.
We get about 10-20 c.h ghost every season and get different clutches on every order. If there is a kink then I can give you a 99.9% guarantee that it is due to incubation, not genetics. For one it is small enough that I did not see it, second you did not notice it until now, and third the way the eggs are incubated in africa are very broad and sometimes they get very hot or dry. When a animal is kinked and produced kinked offspring it is a visual kink that is common in lines such as caramels. We are one of the largest breeders in the country and have 65 adult ghost females that we breed ever season. Out of them we have about 40 lay eggs any given year and have never had any produce kinked animals unless something went wrong with the eggs such as temperature spikes, eggs getting to dry, etc..
Our our ghost are animals we imported from Africa so I can guarantee you if she does indeed have a small kink that is not even visual.. it will not pass on to any offspring.

That said, let me know what you want to do...we can give you a credit for a future order once we get clearer pics where I can see the kink, or ship her back and I will credit you for her.
Its your choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -C@jun-
I want partial credit! My wife loves the snake. She is so sweet and pretty pretty. The problem is I have to deal with future offspring that may have kinks as well. This kink is right on the vent BTW. You sold this snake to refresh a bloodline did you not? You can try to pass this off as thats not my snake it was fine whatever. I read that far to much. The BOI I will see through that. If I have to go to my bank I will just dispute this and send you the snake back! I'm not trying to get over on you, I got money! I'm pissed because my honeybee later down the road may have a kink or how about the offspring I produce the first go around I have to sell or give away them. Going to be hard if they have kinks!

I have to bend her to show it but you can see the white spot were the bone/kink sticks through her scales.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2003.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2002.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2001.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2005.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink002.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink001.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...20/kink003.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2003.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2002.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2001.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...0/kink2005.jpg

Once i finally cooled down I tried to call him. Didn't go well here was a pm after.

*JOSH*I tried to explain to you and educate you a little on the genetics and how they affect breeding. I also offered to correct the situation by having you return the animal, or offer you a discount on a future purchase. We do not give partial refunds. Its a credit, a full return or nothing. That is our policy.

As far as false advertising, as I told you, I never noticed a kink on her, and either did you. If you did you should have notified us when you got her, not 2 weeks later.

You seem to act like a know it all, and have a real attitude problem when someone tries to help you and offer a way to fix a situation.

Threating me with your bank or bio is something a child would do.
I offered you to return the animal for a refund and you acted like a bitch. If you do not want to accept our return policies it is up to you, but I am not giving you money and let you keep the snake. $175 credit on a female ghost with a "tiny" kink that is not even visual is not acceptable on a $250 snake. You know that and that is why you refuse to return her.

Send her back for a refund or keep her. If you keep her and charge back like you said you were going to we will make sure everyone knows you are a thief.

Its your call

*ME*I have told you over and over I noticed this from the get go. I didn't know what it was.

As far as credit on another order I wouldn't buy another snake from you if my life depended on it.

As far as sending it back you will not see the snake back. My family has fallen in love with her and it wouldn't be right. I was asking for a credit to make it what you sold your other defected snakes as.

As far as me being a thief I would only be doing what you did in the first place.

 

[-C@jun-]

Forgot to post my name

James Norred

 

[-C@jun-]

Today I'm going through the classified on here and I see this:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180025

Obviously he had something to hide because now he has deleted the thread.
Maybe someone will come in who remembers seeing this ad.

 

[Josh@Outbackreps]

I offered a full refund if you return the animal. If you don't want to return it them there is no reason for this thread. As far as the kink as I said if there is one I must have missed it. I offered you a credit on another animal as well as the option to return it.
Sounds like someone is just looking to keep the snake and their money. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
The add is down because we sld both the snakes. No sence running it if they are sold.

I treid to work with you and fix the problem but could not reason with either of you.

I guess there is no pleasing some people.

 

[-C@jun-]

I offered a full refund if you return the animal. If you don't want to return it them there is no reason for this thread. As far as the kink as I said if there is one I must have missed it. I offered you a credit on another animal as well as the option to return it.
Sounds like someone is just looking to keep the snake and their money. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
The add is down because we sld both the snakes. No sence running it if they are sold.

I treid to work with you and fix the problem but could not reason with either of you.

I guess there is no pleasing some people.

1. I told you over and over we love the snake reguardless and that we were not going to send it back wouldn't be right on my family. I just wanted you to credit me where it would reflect a defective snake.

2.I told you i wouldn't do business with you again. I don't want credit on next order. You have already falsified one ad by not listing the defect and no telling how many others. This was not something you could of overlooked! Your a liar! Clear as day! Even my wife noticed the defect. As mentioned we didn't know what it was. Thought it was a weight issue.

3.I told you 175$ so i'm not asking for my money back and the snake. 75$ as you sold your other defective snakes as plus 50$ shipping. I paid 300$ that would make 175$

4. Telling us to send back a snake that we are attached to is no way of dealing with it. You said it yourself that you could of overlooked a kink. That is your fault. You get these snakes you look over them you list it. This case you overlooked a defect not listed is a error on your part not mine. I will not suffer or hear grief because you don't know your from a hole in the ground.

This is what you get here for being a theif or blind idiot! A BAD REVIEW!

 

[Southern Wolf]

Josh... I have a question. If the OP wants to keep the animal as a pet and not breed it.... if you are satisfied enough that its yours to offer a full refund.... why not offer a partial refund for an animal this has a genetic defect?

They way I understand it is ... they dont want all their money back... just the difference between what a fully healthy animal goes for... and what one that isnt?

 

[Lucille]

This is what you get here for being a theif or blind idiot! A BAD REVIEW!

Your seller seems reasonable, he offered a refund on return.

How about you take your critter to the vet and actually find out what is going on? If your family has fallen in love with it as you say, and wants to leep it because it is so pretty, wouldn't you do that anyway just to make sure all was well?



BTW, you sure it is a she?

 

[Southern Wolf]

3.I told you 175$ so i'm not asking for my money back and the snake. 75$ as you sold your other defective snakes as plus 50$ shipping. I paid 300$ that would make 175$

Josh... why are you knowingly selling genetic defective snakes?

 

[cinderbird]

4. Telling us to send back a snake that we are attached to is no way of dealing with it. You said it yourself that you could of overlooked a kink. That is your fault. You get these snakes you look over them you list it. This case you overlooked a defect not listed is a error on your part not mine. I will not suffer or hear grief because you don't know your from a hole in the ground.

This is what you get here for being a theif or blind idiot! A BAD REVIEW!

Actually.. that is a perfectly reasonable way of dealing with it. Outback has offered to make this right by giving you multiple options in standards with their terms of service. Its up to you to pick on, or go on your way. They aren't ignoring you, they are trying to give you options to make that right.

Josh said the two kinked animals came from an entirely different shipment that yours came in from. I'd be inclined to believe them. I see outback and every havre de grace show I go to, and they move an incredible amount of animals.

Your attachment on the animal has no bearing to them. If their policy is not to do partial refunds, then no amount of obscenities is going to change that. You picked up the animal in person, why wouldn't you have asked about the "issue" or called them the day you got it? Why wait until 2 weeks later?

I can only caution people against going and purchasing an animal when they don't have a genuinely good idea about what a perfectly healthy specimen of it looks likes.

 

[-C@jun-]

Josh... I have a question. If the OP wants to keep the animal as a pet and not breed it.... if you are satisfied enough that its yours to offer a full refund.... why not offer a partial refund for an animal this has a genetic defect?

They way I understand it is ... they dont want all their money back... just the difference between what a fully healthy animal goes for... and what one that isnt?

This is what I'm after a partial. the problem is that I got this snake to breed he knew it and didn't have it listed as a kinked snake weather he overlooked or not i have to deal with possible kinked offspring in the future if it is genetic. I don't want to return it because it is our pet now and we love her. I don't care about the kink it is not really noticeable but I payed for a healthy top notch snake!

 

[bradleymoore]

it would be nice to see the pictures, as the links don't work.

 

[spoonersgirl]

FYI ~ I have bought 4 different snakes from Josh and have had excellent service. My bf talked to him over the phone a few times and both of us have emailed. The customer service from Josh was awesome; he was very friendly & knowledgeable. Our snakes were exactly as described and we love them. We will do business with him again in the future.

I'm sorry you had a different experience but from reading your emails you are in the wrong not Josh. Always read the policies on sales & refunds from anyone you do business with first, before you buy. If you don't agree with their policies, don't buy from them. With any business there will be some sort of complication that arises from time to time, that doesn't make them an automatic crook and it is wrong to assume it was on purpose.

You want to keep the snake, so why should he refund your money? He has obviously tried to correct this and please you but it looks like you aren't willing to cooperate. It's nothing personal, just business.

That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[Josh@Outbackreps]

They asked for the price difference of what we sold males with a noticiple kink for.
They are also using it as a breeder animal...
Our policy is store credit or a full refund. We do not give partial refunds as it is company policy.
This also protects us as a company from people buying an animal and getting a partial refund and then doing a chargeback on their account...

 

[-C@jun-]

You picked up the animal in person, why wouldn't you have asked about the "issue" or called them the day you got it? Why wait until 2 weeks later?

I can only caution people against going and purchasing an animal when they don't have a genuinely good idea about what a perfectly healthy specimen of it looks likes.

I bought it off of kingsnake from him. I didn't know what the defect was. As I stated over and over we thought it was a weight issue.

I can only caution people against going and purchasing an animal when they don't have a genuinely good idea about what a perfectly healthy specimen of it looks likes.

How do you learn these thing without jumping into it? I have seen kinks on ralph davis videos as big knotts on caramel albinos. You have to crawl before you can walk! From his photos and description is was perfect!

 

[Lucille]

Well when we got her it seemed she had this sideways bone sticking out on the vent on either side. Seeing I'm new to owning herps as of May bought my first I didn't know what this was.

If it is some genetic defect that is one thing. Maybe a trip to the vet to see what is going on. But what if the buyer is describing spurs? A picture would be good, buyer, can you post a pic?

 

[-C@jun-]

I'm sorry you had a different experience but from reading your emails you are in the wrong not Josh. Always read the policies on sales & refunds from anyone you do business with first, before you buy. If you don't agree with their policies, don't buy from them. With any business there will be some sort of complication that arises from time to time, that doesn't make them an automatic crook and it is wrong to assume it was on purpose.

You want to keep the snake, so why should he refund your money? He has obviously tried to correct this and please you but it looks like you aren't willing to cooperate. It's nothing personal, just business.

That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

What TOS they sell off of here and kingsnake. There website is a joke! Nothing!

 

[cinderbird]

I bought it off of kingsnake from him. I didn't know what the defect was. As I stated over and over we thought it was a weight issue.


How do you learn these thing without jumping into it? I have seen kinks on ralph davis videos as big knotts on caramel albinos. You have to crawl before you can walk! From his photos and description is was perfect!

I apologize, i thought you purchased the animal from a show in LA (not sure where i got that from, my brain is a bit fried right now).

When i'm looking to get into another species, i research. A lot. Sometimes for years. I read everything I can get my hands on, I talk to people that breed them and own them, I see their animals for myself and talk to them. I suppose I'm a lot more through than most, but it's never served me wrong. If its not a species I'm familiar with, I grab the breeders number. If they aren't willing to give me a business, home or cell I call the sale off. I know myself, I will not call over small things I can fix myself but if i have a big concern or question I want to be able to get in contact with that breeder/supplier/etc.

Kinks in ball pythons can vary A LOT. I have an animal with a kink, she was my first snake. I'll breed her because I know where that kink came from -- I accidently shut the very tip of her tail in her cage lid the first week I got her. I know for a fact its not genetic and its not even noticeable anymore, but I know its there.

 

[-C@jun-]

It was worst when we got her. It's been 2 feedings and she is filling out. You have to feel for it. In the pic I have her tail bent and you can see the white dot were it is poking her scales

 

[bradleymoore]

i see the dot... but it's hard to determine considering that pic is blurry.

 

[spoonersgirl]

What TOS they sell off of here and kingsnake. There website is a joke! Nothing!

IMHO, A responsible buyer will ask for policies if they don't see them posted... I never assume someone will give me anything, unless I see it in writing first. And it's never a good idea to make accusations and/or insult anyone you're wanting money or some other favor from. You get more bees with honey than vinegar, as the saying goes....