Aptor / Raptor Debate
 

Per Tremper's site...

non-albino "het" RAPTOR x non-albino "het" RAPTOR
non-albino "het" RAPTOR x Albino "het" RAPTOR
ECLIPSE het albino x non-albino "het" for RAPTOR
ECLIPSE het for albino x Albino "het" RAPTOR

will all produce RAPTORs in one way or another...

The last two crosses, hints very strongly that the RAPTOR is not a simple recessive mutation. HOWEVER, further down on that same page, he states that RAPTOR is actually the albino version of the ECLIPSE mutation.

In all technicality, how can it be possible to be het RAPTOR? If you break down his description, it is basically a red-eyed, patternless, tangerine. Tangerine is NOT a recessive mutation. The new patternless gene very well may be...He is also unsure whether or not the "red-eye" aka ECLIPSE is recessive...Also, if a particular gecko is Albino, it cannot be het Albino too (or is this being thrown around like some individuals with cornsnakes saying their Amels are het Snow :ack2: ).

So maybe het RAPTOR is incorrect, and it should technically be het TREMPER PATTERNLESS from ECLIPSE lines (at least until the ECLIPSE mutation is proven)?

He also states "It is not known at this time if R.A.P.T.O.R. times R.A.P.T.O.R. results in 100% pure R.A.P.T.O.R.s or if you get 50% R.A.P.T.O.R.s and 50% snake-eyed R.A.P.T.O.R.s."

RAPTOR x RAPTOR must produce 100% "pure" RAPTOR to be a simple recessive mutation (thus making it possible to be het). But that line in itself contradicts itself, because he is speaking as if RAPTOR is alone a single mutation involving only the ECLIPSE/SNAKE-EYE mutations, when in fact, that's not what he states it stands for at the beginning of the page.

Pretty much all of this applies to APTORs minus the "red-eyed" or ECLIPSE mutation. :)

My main reason for bringing this up is to keep the LGR up to date. I was speaking with a member here privately, and he told me that RAPTOR has been proven recessive. I find, following the rules of genetics, that impossible.

If anyone would like to add to the discussion and enlighten me, please do so! :)

Before I join in I have to ask, why does Tremper not appear on these forums, the same goes for Craig from TUG. I havent seen them on here once, and yet theyre are 2 very very big names in this business. As far as RAPTORS go, well, I'm lost, c'est la vie mon ami.

I don't know, Stef... but as soon as the acronyms start including letters from non-English alphabets, I'm just going to call them yellow, orange, white, etc. :slamit:

it means that is life my freind in french

Het RAPTOR means Het Red Eyes, you are right you cant have Het Tang or CT. But noone ever said Het RAPTOR, means it is Het for each trait included in the acronym.:)

What else would APTOR Het for RAPTOR mean? Cant be Het APTOR, if it is one. Its the "R" part he is talking about. Het APTOR Het RAPTOR means nothing more than an APTOR, that is Het for Red Eyes.

I think part of the debate if will het RAPTOR/APTOR produce a APTOR or aRAPTOR. Like with the het act like a het. In many cases I have found this to be true, but what is everyone else finds when breeding this morph?

About the eyes: it does not say that RAPTOR X RAPTOR will not produce 100% RAPTOR, it is IMO basically eluding to the fact not all of the RAPTORs will have solid eyes.

Snake Eyes and RAPTORs are 1 in the same. So if you breed 2 together, you should be able to get a mix of both. It is just variable, like the eyes of Blizzards. Not all RAPTORs have solid eyes, so the term "Snake Eyes" is used.

All I know, is that many of the APTORs produced RAPTORs. I think everyone that bought females hatched them. I knew about the Red Eyed version before it was ever 'unveiled', had asked Ron if the APTORs were Hets. I was told there was a slight chance, and that the female we bought was NOT a Het. LOL

We bred our original APTOR to her, and hatched RAPTORs last year though. Go figure.

Waiting on eggs to be laid yet, from APTOR Het RAPTOR X Poss. Het RAPTOR, and Poss. Het RAPTOR X RAPTOR. So we will see.

"Red-Eyes" is the albino form of the ECLIPSE muation. Thus in all technicality, it would be het ECLIPSE, not Red-Eyes or RAPTOR. This is what I've found incredibly misleading. By saying "het RAPTOR" one is implying that it is het for each trait in the acronym, and each trait is proven recessive. I'm a stickler for correct termonology when it comes to mutations. I'm sure I'm also not the only one that has questioned this.

APTOR "het" RAPTOR should actually be APTOR het ECLIPSE

Like my previous anology, it's like some individuals saying their corns are Amel het Snow, which is impossible considering Snow is Amel + Anery and the Amel is already expressing that mutation.

I know.... the 'terminology' for this morph is pretty messed up, I agree w/that. :)

A non-Albino het Eclipse, is called "Het ECLIPSE Het RAPTOR" if it is Het for Albino too. I guess since it can produce the Albino form.

The acronym is just a name to keep from typing out the same thing 500,000,000 times IMO. OR is not an acronym, and T is just for advertising his last name. LOL Just a catchy name, and nothing more really.



My 'Red Eyed Jungle Albino', is Rons 'Jungle RAPTOR', etc., etc. Well we know that a Jungle is not 'Patternless', if it is an Albino its not Het Albino, so on and so forth. If it is a normal,Het RAPTOR means Het Albino/Het Eclipse. If it is an Albino, it only means it is Het Eclipse. Its not really that big a deal to me, to get out my secret de-coder button. LOL