Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue (Post 2287379)

Well, they're all smuggled lineage. I don't suppose that's the sort of information you're looking for though, huh?

Originally Posted by James L (Post 2287397)

John Zillmer, you are so obnoxious. Keyboard warrior. Huh????
Get a life. If you dont like the hobby, buzz off.
Have a great day, buddy....

Originally Posted by Beyond GenetiX (Post 2287407)

Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue (Post 2287408)

Jason, I admit I could have worded my comment in a less snidely fashion. I apologize to you and to the OP for the snarky way I put it. Robert, it truly wasn't meant to be a derail -- not primarily, anyway.

It is relevant information, though -- whether a species is technically legal to possess, which this one is not. We'd all do better for the hobby if that sort of discussion was more prevalent, and more accepted. I'd hate for Fauna to become known as the place where these sorts of animals can trade hands, because many of them can't on that other site.

Again, Robert, hopefully my intent in making the whole situation a better one is clear.

Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue (Post 2287408)

Jason, I admit I could have worded my comment in a less snidely fashion. I apologize to you and to the OP for the snarky way I put it. Robert, it truly wasn't meant to be a derail -- not primarily, anyway.

It is relevant information, though -- whether a species is technically legal to possess, which this one is not. We'd all do better for the hobby if that sort of discussion was more prevalent, and more accepted. I'd hate for Fauna to become known as the place where these sorts of animals can trade hands, because many of them can't on that other site.

Again, Robert, hopefully my intent in making the whole situation a better one is clear.

Originally Posted by tiodio123 (Post 2287445)

I accept your apology. I've heard rumors around that most are smuggled lines. I know the export laws from Australia typically only allow export for Zoo's or education centers. I'm curious if those institutions are allowed to sell the offspring of the animals they breed in their facilities.

Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue (Post 2287454)

Mods, I'm pursuing a question asked by the OP of this post, which may or may not be permitted in the classifieds sections. I assume since it is by the request of the OP, it is OK. I hope this thread either stays up or gets moved to the discussion sections, as I'm about to dump some useful reference information into it.



That's big of you. It isn't easy to see the truth in a snarky online post from some stranger, but you have done so. Thanks. :)

I emailed the Australian Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment recently to try to get information about whether another species (one recent to the captive trade, so similar to T. rugosa) had any chance of having been exported legally. I got a less detailed answer than I was hoping, but it did include this:

"Australia has very strict regulations on the export of live native species. If any native reptiles were exported for commercial trade, they were done so illegally."

Yes, it is clear that T. rugosa is heavily smuggled. The multitude of Australian species that have entered the trade in the last, say, 20 years (since the passing of the EPBC Act in 2000, though other Australian legislation predates that overarching legislation) are of smuggled origin -- mostly, all those Aussie geckos. Whether some of the long-standing species are too, I don't know -- such as Antaresia and Aspidites. The history on some species in captivity goes back far enough that even knowing where to look won't uncover whether there were some exports long ago that were legal enough to count as maybe "gray market".

Even if, though, a person uncovered one possible chain of offspring from some sort of legitimate export to the present (though confirming the authenticity of the paperwork would be a job in itself, as T. rugosa is not CITES listed and so can't be searched on that excellent database) , the fact is is that the species is a prime smuggling target (they transport very well and are quite valuable).

It isn't hard to find news reports:
https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sou...-in-cape-town/

Popular press sort of online articles that are often sensationalized but do contain some useful info:
https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sou...-in-cape-town/

And more academic sources of info:

https://www.adelaide.edu.au/newsroom...aussie-lizards
https://zslpublications.onlinelibrar...1111/acv.12721

It is pretty clear that there's nothing legal about the way in which this species tends to leave Australia. Not only does this make all specimens of the species illegal to possess in the US under the Lacey Act, but it makes our hobby complicit in the theft of a protected species. Whether or not a person wants to be part of that is up to them. I've made my decision, and intend to share information with others so that they can make an informed decision for themselves on how they want to pursue their hobby and live their lives. USFWS isn't going to punish possession, so it is up to each person's conscience.