Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

I can understand that Brian did agree to give him something in return, but he seems to be getting a little greedy about what he should get... an Enchi Bee???

Mister Internet said:

So... you really think, in the above scenario, that my friend has any right to say anything to the original retailer? I don't think any reasonable person would say that they do. Unless this snake was sold with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, I don't think for one second the OP had any right bothering BHB about this. He should have gotten his refund from his "friend"... some friend, if he won't step in and make this right for David during all this time...

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I'm the "Friend" that you are implicating and I take offense to that. I've done my best to stay out of this thread as much as possible because I still value my business and personal relationship but both David and Brian and fear the more I post the more I risk alienating one or both of them. And I don't know what I can add to this thread that will help reach a resolution for either side. I'm not sure what I can really do in this scenario. If there is something I can do I will happily do it.

Not sure if you read my post about the details of the original purchase of the spider het male back on page 7 but if you haven't read it I'll just re-iterate some of it here. David (the OP) and I talk often about our plans. I wanted a pied female he was thinking of selling and at the same time I had an order in the works with BHB. David says he too had talked to BHB about an adult male spider het ghost because David has big het females that he wants to breed so he doesn't want to wait and raise a baby.

So since I have the order in the works with him I call Brian and ask about the male for David, that's even how Brian knows what adult male spider het ghost I'm talking about. I basically tell Brian, David was talking to you about this spider het ghost male and David and I work on some projects together so we thought I'd see if he'd give me a discount over the price he quoted David since I have a sizable order already in the works. It's not like I called Brian and said Oh and add a baby spider het ghost male to my order, I had to describe the specific animal that David and Brian had previously discussed. So all three of us know exactly what's going on. I'm buying an animal for David from Brian to save some money. I think the main reason that Brian didn't ship the spider het directly to David is simply then Brian is shipping twice on one sale and shipping isn't inexpensive. He had already discounted the price on the animal it would be a lot to ask to then say "Can you go ahead and lose more money by shipping directly to David?".

Had I known at the time that something like this could have happened I can now say I wouldn't have done it but at the time it seemed harmless; I get my order from Brian, and a Pied from David, and save $250, David gets the spider het ghost he wanted from BHB and remaining cash from me for the pied girl, and Brian made another $1500 on top of what he was already making from me. At the time it seemed there were no losers here. Since it was Brian I never even thought to ask for a photo ID. I can't even count the number of amazing animals I've received from Brian over the year and David didn't ask me to get a photo ID so the thought never entered my head to ask for one. I have other hets from BHB in my collection and I have never asked for a photo ID on them. I recently made a trade with Bradford Cole Herp for a Lesser Het Stripe male. I didn't ask for a photo ID from him either because I trust him. After I had received the lesser het Cory did ask me if I'd like a photo ID. Here's his email and my response: (I know this doesn't have direct bearing on this thread but just as essentially a character witness to support my stance about photo IDs when dealing with somebody I know and trust).

Re: Message about: Proven Breeder Morphs - male and female
From:
CHRISTOPHER HUFFMAN <[email protected]>
To: "Bradford Cole, Inc." <[email protected]>
If you want to put something together that would be fine. No rush. I don't need it for me and I don't see myself getting rid of him until I have he's produced a male lesser genetic stripe that's ready to breed so it'll probably be a while before I'd be looking to sell him.

Thanks.

Chris

From: "Bradford Cole, Inc." <[email protected]>
To: Chris Huffman <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 22, 2010 8:24:24 AM
Subject: RE: Message about: Proven Breeder Morphs - male and female

Chris-

I totally spaced giving you a photo verification, would you like one? I can use the pics I sent you previously.

Thanks in advance,

Cory

Bradford Cole, Inc.
(317)663-3006

www.bcherp.com


As I said at the beginning of this post if there is something I can do I would happily try as I hate seeing a Bad Guy thread for Brian who I think is a stand up guy and I also hate seeing David worked up as I know David too is a great guy and some of his posts have helped to form others opinions about him which I don't think accurately represent his true self. I have racked my brain about what I can do to help but I can't come up with anything. I know that what I sent David is exactly what I received from Brian but I have no means to prove that. How could anybody prove that in this scenario? I've provided David with the original receipt from BHB, all parties knew what was going on when the d

I'm trying to remain impartial and will happily share my opinions on both Brian and David and answer any and all questions.

My opinions for what it's worth:
Brian - Brian is a great guy. He's very helpful and has always provided top notch animals. That said Brian can be very very hard to get ahold of. I've probably dealt with Brian more than David has so I'm use to a deal with Brian taking months to close. I had one deal with Brian that was started in Aug 09 and finally closed in Jan or Feb 10. I'm sure he closed hundreds of other deals during that same period of time in days but it didn't bother me as I knew eventually it would close. I would email, call, etc. sometimes go weeks without hearing as he was busy with shows and breeding. But he did come through. It didn't stop me from picking up a champagne from him just a couple months ago (a deal that closed in a matter of days this time). He has a lot of irons in the fire, sometimes that can be a bad thing but I am very laid back so 5 months to close a deal with him didn't bother me, but it apparently did bother David.

David - David too is a great guy. David too has provided me top notch animals. David included myself (and Cliff) on the original email he sent to Brian when he had two clutches from hets that failed to produce a visual so once again, all parties were aware. That said I still think (and I have told David this) that before it went this far the male should have been bred to a visual female. I saw somebody post that het to het is 25% chance of visual and het to homozygous is 50% so they didn't see much of a difference in the two but I would disagree. In het x het both parents have a 50% chance of passing the gene on so to get a visual from het x het you have to get lucky with both parents passing it to the same offspring. In het x homo that homozygous parent is going to give the gene to 100% of the offspring so you only have to get lucky on that other parent. And it only has to give it to one baby out of the clutch and you'll have a visual. So I know the odds aren't that much different but how you arrive at those odds is vastly different. If David had come to me before posting this thread on the BOI I would have told him that I thought Brian would come through and even though the months seemed long to him to give it more time.

As I said before I can't see a good way for me to help this situation much. The animal was never for me and both Brian and David knew that, I had it in my possession long enough to make sure David was ready to receive him, it was probably 4 or 5 days tops. I probably received it midweek and shipped it out the following Monday. Some of the suggestions I've seen in the thread I don't think are viable either. If the spider het ghost is sent to me and I prove it out (as I've seen suggested) then a portion of the people viewing this thread are going to think I had kept the spider het male originally and just used him when I "proved" this male so I don't think that solves or proves anything. The best thing that I can see happen is that somebody breeds this male to a visual and it proves. If I had a big visual ghost female available I would even make her available for a public breeding trial but I have 1 orange ghost female and she has been paired with a lemon blast het ghost male that I got from BHB. I haven't seen a lock yet but that doesn't mean there hasn't been a lock so I don't think if she where to be sent for a breeding trial that the results could be trusted unless she throws an actual honeybee in the clutch.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully some of this helps.

Mister Internet said:

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

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I'm not even sure what I could refund. When I sent David the snake I also sent him a check for additional money for the pied female. So would I return the pied female? And would I get the cash portion I sent refunded to me?

Mister Internet said:

In fairness to the OP, that's not the point. If he didn't receive what he purchased, he absolutely deserves a refund, regardless if he was able to "salvage" the situation to a degree.

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

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Did you read the whole thread? The OP was already in contact with BHB about this particular snake. The only reason he bought it from Chris was Chris already had an order in with BHB so by combining his order with Chris's order they both got a better deal. BHB knew exactly where the snake was going, and that was to David. So yes he has every right to go to BHB for resolution.

Wow I hear a lot of people saying they feel Brian isn’t responsible for any compensation. I think there is nothing further then the truth. He accepted this when he offered to compensate this guy with animal’s period! He should do what he said he would do. I do however feel that he should not be responsible for compensating multiple people on this. When the original poster sold this animal he accepted responsibility for it. Brian should only compensate one person. If Brian is taking care of the OP then the OP should take care of Cliff. I feel Cliff should receive a honeybee for his breedings. This is how I would handle this situation. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

Mister Internet said:

I actually have no idea what you just said.

What I AM saying is that when I buy something from a retailer, in an industry where there is no implied or actual multi-buyer or lifetime "warranty", then I am responsible for the representation of said item when it leaves my possession... ESPECIALLY if I've taken money for it!

Think of it this way... I buy an ingot of 10 troy ounces of 24K gold for investment purposes from a well-respected, nationally-recognized retailer. I don't personally know enough about gold to tell a 24K ingot from an 18K ingot, so I take the retailer's word on it, as I should. Now, let's say I decide I need money worse than gold two years later, and I sell it to my friend... when I sell it, I tell him "hey, this is 10 troy ounces of 24 carat gold". I HAVE NOW BECOME THE SELLER, simple as that. I have represented a product, and taken money for it... what that product IS or IS NOT, at that point, is my responsibility to my friend to insure. If my friend goes and gets it checked out and finds out it's only 18 carat gold, he doesn't get to go whine to the original retailer. He didn't buy it from the retailer, the product was not represented to him by the retailer, and the retailer doesn't know my friend from Adam, and SHOULD protect himself by dealing only with me, his original customer.

If my friend has a problem with the gold ingot, he brings it back to ME, the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH that has ever told him it's "24 carat gold". When I refund my friend, *I* go to the original retailer and tell him we've got a problem.

So... you really think, in the above scenario, that my friend has any right to say anything to the original retailer? I don't think any reasonable person would say that they do. Unless this snake was sold with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, I don't think for one second the OP had any right bothering BHB about this. He should have gotten his refund from his "friend"... some friend, if he won't step in and make this right for David during all this time...

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Let me break it down for.

I have male double het axanthic/clown for sale.

U want it.

U inquire about it and let me know ur interest.

Ur neighbor just happens to be placing an order with me.
U ask ur neighbor to inquire about it being added to his order.

Ur neighbor asks me to do so, and I oblige. No one is left in the dark, I know the animal is for someone else and people are combining to save some money.

I send said animal to ur neighbor, u recieve and three years later breed it to a het axanthic, and a het clown.

No visuals are produced what so ever.

After more breeding trials, u still get nuthin but normals.

Based on what u said, I dont owe u crap.

Based on how I do business, I replace the animal and try to make my customer happy. Doesnt matter to me if they are a second hand customer or not, they are still a customer.

Its not like we can stick a gauge in a snake and see what genetics lie beneath. If we could there would be no such thing as possible hets. Your more than welcome to look a ignot of gold under a microscope to see if it is represented correctly before u buy it. If u had the ability to check and make sure it was 24k and failed to do so before u sold then yea u owe ur friend. If u want to say ur new to gold then research sumthin before u buy. Very poor example. The only way we can know an animals genetics is to trust the breeder. And unlike ur other lacking example with the warranties, genetics doesnt expire. Genetics doesnt run down and need to be maintained. It stays solid.

Oh and Cliff should receive a refund for the purchase price. That is what I feel is fair for both parties involved.

Mister Internet said:

In fairness to the OP, that's not the point. If he didn't receive what he purchased, he absolutely deserves a refund, regardless if he was able to "salvage" the situation to a degree.

He just complained to the wrong person for his refund... granted, that person out of the goodness of their heart agreed to do something for him, and NOW SHOULD. But it should have been his "friend" giving him the refund all along.

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No his friend should not give him a refund. His friend did not produce the snake, didnt put his name on it, and bought with BHB knowing it was for someone else.

I still fail to see how a breeder who claims to have such and such doesnt have to be held liable for their claims.

I would also like to take a minute to respond to a few people that are posting they feel because the animals are hets that they feel that hets are a gamble so the seller should not be responsible for anything. That is a crock of ----. If you buy hets from a reputable breeder then you will eventually produce the visual form of the desired morph.

All recessive projects start off with hets, so hets need to be in the marketplace. Sellers of Het animals should be held accountable for any Het animals they sale. If they are not willing to guarantee there animals genetics then they should sale them as nothing more then normals.

I think all of us as buyers need to be responsible buyers when it comes to het animals and only buy animals with a photo genetic guarantee. If we all did this then everyone will have no choice but to make paperwork up. Hopefully we could eventually make the genetic paperwork an industry standard which I myself feel it should be. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

OKAY im just going to say it just cause you breed a 100% het to another 100% doesnt mean your going to get that visual trait.

wyblep said:

I think all of us as buyers need to be responsible buyers when it comes to het animals and only buy animals with a photo genetic guarantee. If we all did this then everyone will have no choice but to make paperwork up. Hopefully we could eventually make the genetic paperwork an industry standard which I myself feel it should be. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

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Paper work can be manipulated, and fabricated. Its really just a feel good measure. That being said, I do like paperwok on my hets, just so i do feel good.

The reason no paper work was invovled is because all parties knew each other and have done good business before.

Would it have made claims more concrete? Sure would. But Brian did acknowledge the problem and agreed to fix it. There fore he should do so in a timely. U dont return sumthin to walmart and have to wait six months to a year to get ur money do u?

rcpreis3 said:

U dont return sumthin to walmart and have to wait six months to a year to get ur money do u?

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That question wasnt meant towards u at all wyblep, just a general food for thought question.

Wanted to make sure u knew that.

I totally understand that paperwork can be forged and manipulated. That is why I keep a copy of all my paperwork on hets that I have sold. Lets face it plans change all the time and even though we buy animals with the intent of keeping and breeding them sometimes we need to sale them for whatever reason.

Just because we bought them does not mean we should be stuck with them until they prove out. That’s where genetic guarantees come into play. You sale a het the new buyer can call the breeder and send a copy of the guarantee with the photo of the animal and the breeder can verify that this is the correct animal so everyone involved is now protected.

I actually caught a guy selling a pair of het axanthics with fake paperwork with my name on it. He purchased a pair of hets from me and sold them to a guy in Texas and that guy contacted me to confirm that they were in fact the same animals which I was able to confirm because I had a copy of the paperwork.

Then I was doing a deal with a young lady in Florida and she said she had a package coming in that same day which contained a pair of hets that were produced by me. I immediately asked who she got them from and asked her to send me a scanned copy of the paperwork which I obviously saw was fraudulent. I then helped her get a refund for the animals by driving up to Erie where the original purchaser had a pet store. Took a little leg work But I got this lady her 950.00 back and protected my name in this business.

So yes I feel we all need to work on making this an industry standard. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics.

If there is a possibility of
A. the hypo gene is not compatible with the females hypo gene or
B. the male needs to be bred to a visual to determine if it is a het,
then Brian should not have to compensate anyone, YET.
Brian accepted responsibility for the outcome of the breedings and offered compensation, perhaps he reflected further and has changed his mind?
His failure to address this issue with the OP is what is troubling to me.

I haven't read the entire thread word-for-word, but should the female hets be in question too? If even one of the females was questionable, then that would bring the egg count down, and put the "bad odds" theory back in play. Just a question to think about....

Casey Hulse said:

If there is a possibility of
A. the hypo gene is not compatible with the females hypo gene or
B. the male needs to be bred to a visual to determine if it is a het,
then Brian should not have to compensate anyone, YET.
Brian accepted responsibility for the outcome of the breedings and offered compensation, perhaps he reflected further and has changed his mind?
His failure to address this issue with the OP is what is troubling to me.

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Agreed.

Compatibilty is an issue as well as not being bred to a visual. I personally would have done some visual breedings myself.

But Brian did say he'd make it right, so therefore he should. I didnt happen to get an answer from the OP about contact being made between them since this thread was posted.

Buying a het is absolutely a gamble.Especially when you try to breed it to other hets.How does the OP know if the females are in fact, hets? Breeding any animal is a gamble.Buying a live commodity of any type is a gamble.There is an inherent risk involved in anything involving the captive breeding of any animal.Things die, things don't get along,morphs can be incompatible.When you take a chance and things don't work out you gambled and lost. If you want a sure bet buy the morph itself and not a het.

How does the original poster know that the females this "het" bred are also 100% het? Brian may have said he would take care of the OP but he absolutely has the right to change his mind if he thought back about it and came to the conclusion that he wasn't responsible or it was an unreasonable request.

There is still no definitive proof that this is the original snake or that it is not a het.No real definitive proof whatsoever.

btmexotics said:

Buying a het is absolutely a gamble.Especially when you try to breed it to other hets.How does the OP know if the females are in fact, hets? Breeding any animal is a gamble.Buying a live commodity of any type is a gamble.There is an inherent risk involved in anything involving the captive breeding of any animal.Things die, things don't get along,morphs can be incompatible.When you take a chance and things don't work out you gambled and lost. If you want a sure bet buy the morph itself and not a het.

How does the original poster know that the females this "het" bred are also 100% het? Brian may have said he would take care of the OP but he absolutely has the right to change his mind if he thought back about it and came to the conclusion that he wasn't responsible or it was an unreasonable request.

There is still no definitive proof that this is the original snake or that it is not a het.No real definitive proof whatsoever.

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Im sure David is intelligent enough to make sure his animals carry ghost genes before posting up on here. Theres the possibility that hes produced visuals from these girls before or he produced these girls himself. Someone did mention that these girl were big girls, and big girls are rarely virgins. Yes that is an assumption on my part.

Come on, do u think a guy whose been on this site since 2003 would post this thread if he wasnt sure about his own hets? I think he knows how things go in the BOI.

btmexotics said:

Unfortunately for Brian he assumed liability and entered into an agreement to rectify this situation.I feel he should have thought about that before making a decision. I personally wouldn't have given anything. I have always thought hets of any kind were a gamble.And sometimes when you gamble you lose.I also feel hets are the cheapo way to get into projects.Everyone wants a huge guaranteed return on a little investment(relatively speaking). How does everyone know the females are actually 100% hets if they have never been proven? Its a gamble,suck it up and move on. Even in a court of law ,recognizing Brian entered into an agreement.He has the legal right to change his mind.If the judge were to feel that he had no liability in the first place or your amount was unreasonable you would lose. I know everyone feels friends and family can't betray you but there is no real proof that your male came from brian and you would have to prove that. Not every investment yields areturn and if you sold the snake you have been compensated already.Furthermore, the value depreciates.To me this whole thing just seems a little rediculous.

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Note to self, NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM YOU!!!

btmexotics said:

Buying a het is absolutely a gamble.Especially when you try to breed it to other hets.How does the OP know if the females are in fact, hets? Breeding any animal is a gamble.Buying a live commodity of any type is a gamble.There is an inherent risk involved in anything involving the captive breeding of any animal.Things die, things don't get along,morphs can be incompatible.When you take a chance and things don't work out you gambled and lost. If you want a sure bet buy the morph itself and not a het.

How does the original poster know that the females this "het" bred are also 100% het? Brian may have said he would take care of the OP but he absolutely has the right to change his mind if he thought back about it and came to the conclusion that he wasn't responsible or it was an unreasonable request.

There is still no definitive proof that this is the original snake or that it is not a het.No real definitive proof whatsoever.

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And no he does not have the right to change his mind. A man is only as good as his word. Ifs it ok to change his mind on this matter, then would it be ok for u to reserve an animal from him, and when someone offers a better price he tells u get boned?