Where am I going wrong with this site?

WebSlave · Oct 17, 2005

Serpwidgets said:
From that perspective, I think it might help to disallow anyone but those who participated in the transaction to post in that thread. If someone wants to guide a poster, to tell them that they should post emails or pictures or whatever, or maybe to tell them they don't think the claim is justified, or any other "not just the facts" commentary, they could PM that person instead of posting it in the thread. I think this would eliminate huge amounts of chatter that often turn a short thread into an entire evening or weekend of reading.

Sorry, but no, I disagree. One of the major reasons that I started the BOI was because it became obvious to me that the ONLY way to effectively deal with the bad guys in this business is via peer pressure. When their future customers, friends, business contacts, and acquaintances see the negative publicity that the person has brought upon themselves, I had hoped that this would apply enough pressure to make a difference. I hoped it would be enough incentive to resolve ongoing issues and perhaps prevent more from happening in the future.

Obviously (to me anyway) the more people who chime in on a thread, the more people said bad guy is going to observe taking note of their bad dealings. I think it can be a HUGE influence to someone to see 4,000+ views of such a thread. When the overwhelming majority of the posted replies are going against your "business model", it may cause someone to give pause about their future in this business.

Opinions, because of this, have been welcomed, and encouraged to help increase the amount of pressure a thread can hopefully exert on someone. Of course, it does get carried away, and as most things can be ruined by superfluous and off topic posting. That, hopefully will become greatly reduced in the future as more severe penalties will be exerted in order to do so.

Honestly, a thread composed merely of someone posting the bare facts, and the replies from the other party, which may or may not take place, will not be nearly as effective (in my opinion) as my original design intentions. Let's face it, a thread with only a single person stating the bare facts about their bad transaction will not have nearly the same effect as dozens or more people chiming up about their opinions on the matter. This can have a huge influence on some, but not all, people involved and interested. It also helps provide examples of what someone thinking about becoming a bad guy may have in store for themselves if they do go over to the dark side.

Serpwidgets · Oct 17, 2005

WebSlave said:
It also helps provide examples of what someone thinking about becoming a bad guy may have in store for themselves if they do go over to the dark side.

Good point. When you put it that way, it is doing that rather effectively. :hehe:

A_Kendergirl · Oct 17, 2005

Just an idea...

Perhaps BOI threads can have a poll of good guy/bad guy very similar to the Good Guy Certification. Perhaps "Undecided" could be a viable option in the poll as well.

People could them vote as they see fit about the thread, and change their vote if needed. It doesn't happen too often, but good guy threads turn bad and bad guy threads turn good. With the poll available, a person who opens the thread can get a quick glance of the general direction of the thread. If a good guy thread did turn bad (or the other way around) it would be readily seen without having to read 100 posts ... and may inspire someone to actually read all of the posts to see what happened. Likewise, if a bad guy thread has 95% bad guy votes, then there is little question about how people feel. If there are a lot of undecideds, or a near even split, that could be plenty of reason for someone new on the scene to read the whole thread so they can decide by themself.

Take the Bill Leverton thread ... with it's umpteen million posts that are mostly beating a dead horse. At the start of the thread, it actually goes in Bill's favor. Anyone who only reads a page or two might feel he's OK. In the first few hours, his poll would have had a number of "Good Guy" votes, a number of "Undecided", and a few "Bad Guy" votes. Then, several people make it very clear that it's the same snake...and eventually Bill confesses. Nearly all of his "Good Guy" votes would have disappeared, there still would have been a number of "Undecided", and a lot of "Bad Guy". A week or two later (I'm NOT about to look that up!) the info comes about about the shill bidding. At that point, he would have nearly all "Bad Guy" votes. If the poll were in place, by opening the thread a person would be able to see that a WHOLE LOT of people think he's bad...and it saves them from several hours of reading, trying to weed out the truth for themself.

With this in effect, people still have the option of reading all the posts involved in the thread, but they are also more at liberty of skipping from beggining to end and still have a good idea of how the middle went. I KNOW that people do this frequently on large threads....it might actually stop them from posting an opinion that was repeatedly stated 100 posts back, but is now old news.

nicolai · Oct 17, 2005

A_Kendergirl said:
Just an idea...

Perhaps BOI threads can have a poll of good guy/bad guy very similar to the Good Guy Certification. Perhaps "Undecided" could be a viable option in the poll as well.

People could them vote as they see fit about the thread, and change their vote if needed. It doesn't happen too often, but good guy threads turn bad and bad guy threads turn good. With the poll available, a person who opens the thread can get a quick glance of the general direction of the thread. If a good guy thread did turn bad (or the other way around) it would be readily seen without having to read 100 posts ...

Wow shanti...that is a very original and good idea. i wish i would have thought of it. With your idea a person who started off as the bad guy and ended up doing right in the end could have his rep/poll changed by the members more in his favor. This would be incentive for more people to do the right thing and get more people to see them as good guys.

Bill_Leverton · Oct 18, 2005

A_Kendergirl said:
Just an idea...

Perhaps BOI threads can have a poll of good guy/bad guy very similar to the Good Guy Certification. Perhaps "Undecided" could be a viable option in the poll as well.

People could them vote as they see fit about the thread, and change their vote if needed. It doesn't happen too often, but good guy threads turn bad and bad guy threads turn good. With the poll available, a person who opens the thread can get a quick glance of the general direction of the thread. If a good guy thread did turn bad (or the other way around) it would be readily seen without having to read 100 posts ... and may inspire someone to actually read all of the posts to see what happened. Likewise, if a bad guy thread has 95% bad guy votes, then there is little question about how people feel. If there are a lot of undecideds, or a near even split, that could be plenty of reason for someone new on the scene to read the whole thread so they can decide by themself.

Take the Bill Leverton thread ... with it's umpteen million posts that are mostly beating a dead horse. At the start of the thread, it actually goes in Bill's favor. Anyone who only reads a page or two might feel he's OK. In the first few hours, his poll would have had a number of "Good Guy" votes, a number of "Undecided", and a few "Bad Guy" votes. Then, several people make it very clear that it's the same snake...and eventually Bill confesses. Nearly all of his "Good Guy" votes would have disappeared, there still would have been a number of "Undecided", and a lot of "Bad Guy". A week or two later (I'm NOT about to look that up!) the info comes about about the shill bidding. At that point, he would have nearly all "Bad Guy" votes. If the poll were in place, by opening the thread a person would be able to see that a WHOLE LOT of people think he's bad...and it saves them from several hours of reading, trying to weed out the truth for themself.

With this in effect, people still have the option of reading all the posts involved in the thread, but they are also more at liberty of skipping from beggining to end and still have a good idea of how the middle went. I KNOW that people do this frequently on large threads....it might actually stop them from posting an opinion that was repeatedly stated 100 posts back, but is now old news.

Shanti, That is a really original idea and I think something like that would work it would save alot of time reading all the crap between point A and point Z to get back to point A IMHO

Laura Fopiano · Oct 18, 2005

Sorry but I disagree

The Boi and other forums do not need any more polls. Why....certainly the mob mentality for one. Since the Bill Leverton thread has been used as a comparison, my oppinion is that I didn't do business with either party, and if I read the thread in it's entirety, which I did, I would be able to draw my own conclusion to the where it was heading. I don't need a poll to vote on it to make a decision for me.

I believe that it can dilute the original intension of thread, where folks will start talking about the poll and loose the mesage of the parties involved. I am human and I do love a good train wreck, however, adding more things for Rich and the mods to over see is time and space waisted. Just MHO.

Golden Gate Geckos · Oct 19, 2005

Rich, there are w-a-a-a-y too many posts/threads going around on this same subject on different forums. I can't keep track of all the 'new' rules, and it's a wonder anyone can even follow what is going on! Perhaps you should start a whole new forum called "Rich's Rampage" so ALL of the Fauna members can become enlightened on this ever-changing situation, as well and past and future rants and crackdowns?

I have been a Fauna member since back in the days when it was just the BOI, and I have seen some distinct consistent patterns of behavior. This is my observation:

1. Webslave gets fed up with all the crap on Fauna and makes posts like "Where am I going wrong with this site?"

2. Members respond, some with ridiculous suggestions, but many have very legitimate and often accurate, constructive input.

3. Webslave then begins arguing with the members about their comments, since he already has hi own ideas carved in stone, anyway.

4. Members become frustrated with his arguments and unwillingness (or inability) to take criticism... even when it is constructive.

5. Now, everybody's britches get bunched and the squabbling breaks out. The squabbling turns into savagery run amok.

6. Webslave comes down with a force to be reckoned with, implementing new rules and general housekeeping crackdowns.

7. The majority of Fauna folks haven't got a clue what's going on, and there is attrition... people leave the site in execration and anger. Bridges are burned.

8. The 'new' rules eventually become lax and are inconsistently enforced, and inappropriate posting behavior begins to rear it's ugly head one more.

9. return #1

I'm sure you will argue about my post (being the consistent guy you are!) and may even have a meltdown. I hope not. So Rich, you asked "Where am I going wrong with this site?" I wonder where YOU think you are going wrong with this site?

Lucille · Oct 19, 2005

Laura Cox said:
The Boi and other forums do not need any more polls.

No more polls?

Laura Fopiano · Oct 19, 2005

You're so cute!!

lucille said:
No more polls?

Nothing personal, but I was referring to adding more muck, than already exists on the BOI. I don't need a poll to figure out where a thread is going on the BOI, in fact, there's a really good example of a man gone mad on the BOI right now. No poll needed, maybe some strong coffee or a drink, but defiantly not a pole. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72663 So choose your poison and have a good read. Love Ya Lucille!!!

WebSlave · Oct 19, 2005

Golden Gate Geckos said:
Rich, there are w-a-a-a-y too many posts/threads going around on this same subject on different forums. I can't keep track of all the 'new' rules, and it's a wonder anyone can even follow what is going on! Perhaps you should start a whole new forum called "Rich's Rampage" so ALL of the Fauna members can become enlightened on this ever-changing situation, as well and past and future rants and crackdowns?

I have been a Fauna member since back in the days when it was just the BOI, and I have seen some distinct consistent patterns of behavior. This is my observation:

1. Webslave gets fed up with all the crap on Fauna and makes posts like "Where am I going wrong with this site?"

2. Members respond, some with ridiculous suggestions, but many have very legitimate and often accurate, constructive input.

3. Webslave then begins arguing with the members about their comments, since he already has hi own ideas carved in stone, anyway.

4. Members become frustrated with his arguments and unwillingness (or inability) to take criticism... even when it is constructive.

5. Now, everybody's britches get bunched and the squabbling breaks out. The squabbling turns into savagery run amok.

6. Webslave comes down with a force to be reckoned with, implementing new rules and general housekeeping crackdowns.

7. The majority of Fauna folks haven't got a clue what's going on, and there is attrition... people leave the site in execration and anger. Bridges are burned.

8. The 'new' rules eventually become lax and are inconsistently enforced, and inappropriate posting behavior begins to rear it's ugly head one more.

9. return #1

I'm sure you will argue about my post (being the consistent guy you are!) and may even have a meltdown. I hope not. So Rich, you asked "Where am I going wrong with this site?" I wonder where YOU think you are going wrong with this site?

Did I make up new rules? Sorry I don't remember. Perhaps posting as much as I do late at night is not such a good thing for me to do. I thought I was just finally STRICTLY enforcing the same rules that have been here all along. Finally saying "enough is enough". I'm doing this by the seat of my pants, but there are obviously (to me anyway) certain steps that need to be done during the evolution of this site. You all are now observing one taking place.

Sorry you consider my pointing out how some suggestions being made are just not feasible, as arguing. Perhaps I should just ignore the repeated suggestions that I have replied to many times before. If you mean because I have to repeat my same discussion over and over and over again to people who seem unwilling or unable to accept that I just don't see things their way, is being argumentative, then so be it. If people stop asking the same questions or saying the same thing over and over again, maybe I can stop repeating myself. "Constructive" is certainly in the eye of the beholder, eh?

And of course, the flip side to that one is that anyone who may disagree with your "constructive" criticism must logically be "destructive".

Yeah I know, running a site like this is SO easy, isn't it? It's just that I am just too inept to be able to do it properly. Certainly anyone else could do it better then me, I suppose. Looks real easy from the backseat, doesn't it?

But I am trying to do better. That's what this is all about. And I certainly never dreamed everyone was going to go along with the program.....

And as for attrition, hopefully most of it will be from the people who NEED to be gone from here. There will certainly be some collateral damage, but that's just the breaks, I guess.

Serpwidgets · Oct 19, 2005

WebSlave said:
Sorry you consider my pointing out how some suggestions being made are just not feasible, as arguing. Perhaps I should just ignore the repeated suggestions that I have replied to many times before.

I've learned (from experience with asking people to proofread/comment/criticize over the last couple of years) that the best way to take any solicited advice or criticism is to simply say "thank you" and do not respond to any of it, in any other way, for at least several days.

It is one of the hardest things to do, as much as I like arguing any point, LOL. But I have found that it is worth the effort.

It's obvious that, even though you often respond right away, you also do consider the things that are offered up as food for thought and not just dismiss them out of hand. But it definitely makes it easier to decide objectively after you've had time to fall back and view it from a less polarized POV. It also makes it easier to agree later if you didn't previously disagree with it.

Golden Gate Geckos · Oct 19, 2005

Webslave said:
Yeah I know, running a site like this is SO easy, isn't it? It's just that I am just too inept to be able to do it properly. Certainly anyone else could do it better then me, I suppose. Looks real easy from the backseat, doesn't it?

I don't think this is what's going on, Rich. I think people are responding to your original question, "Where am I going wrong with this site?" If you really are not interested in getting feedback, or don't seem to get the feedback you want, then why do you ask for it from Fauna member's?

Golden Gate Geckos said:
So Rich, you asked "Where am I going wrong with this site?" I wonder where YOU think you are going wrong with this site?

I would really like to have your answer for this, Rich.

Webslave said:
as for attrition, hopefully most of it will be from the people who NEED to be gone from here.

Yes, hopefully.

Serpwidgets said:
...the best way to take any solicited advice or criticism is to simply say "thank you" and do not respond to any of it, in any other way, for at least several days.

The key word here is "solicited".

WebSlave · Oct 19, 2005

Webslave said:
Yeah I know, running a site like this is SO easy, isn't it? It's just that I am just too inept to be able to do it properly. Certainly anyone else could do it better then me, I suppose. Looks real easy from the backseat, doesn't it?

Golden Gate Geckos said:
I don't think this is what's going on, Rich. I think people are responding to your original question, "Where am I going wrong with this site?" If you really are not interested in getting feedback, or don't seem to get the feedback you want, then why do you ask for it from Fauna member's?

No, I took what I could from the recommendations and am implementing them. And it is not only from that one thread. People are tired of the crap on this site. That is going to end. A few people asked for "consistent" enforcement of the rules, yet could not present me with a logical method that such a thing could be reasonable instituted. This is a VERY dead horse, in my opinion, that keeps getting resurrected. But, to TRY to provide better coverage I have asked ALL members to be diligent and report any posts that that feel is in violation of, if not the rules, then just common decency. Although this was not one of the recommendations offered (at least I think not), I decided it was a reasonable approach to attempt.

Golden Gate Geckos said:
So Rich, you asked "Where am I going wrong with this site?" I wonder where YOU think you are going wrong with this site?

Golden Gate Geckos said:
I would really like to have your answer for this, Rich.

Well now that answer appears rather obvious. I have been far too lenient on people here. I have allowed the crap to pile up too deeply for too long. My only defense was, I guess, that I wanted traffic to build on this site, and I felt that being too strong-armed and too hardlined about policies and rules would inhibit this growth. That may have been a mistake. Or maybe not. It may just have been what I had to put up with to get this site where it is now. But I don't think it is ever too late to take out the trash. What is not acceptable, is NEVER taking it out.

Webslave said:
as for attrition, hopefully most of it will be from the people who NEED to be gone from here.

Golden Gate Geckos said:
Yes, hopefully.

Serpwidgets said:
...the best way to take any solicited advice or criticism is to simply say "thank you" and do not respond to any of it, in any other way, for at least several days.

Golden Gate Geckos said:
The key word here is "solicited".

Yep. Perhaps I should break myself of that habit of asking for advice and just DO IT. Is that the method you would prefer? To not have any input at all in the future direction of this site? To not have me ask for opinions, whether or not I really believe anyone will actually come up with something that I have not already thought of, yet looking for something maybe I did NOT think of?

That is a very easy path for me to take, you know. Actually much easier then the one I have been travelling.

Wilomn · Oct 19, 2005

You know what Rich? You should just bite the bullet and make a list and kick them out. Just do it. Whoever is on it is gone and so are your headaches. There is nothing wrong with Vanilla.

Someone at sometime has to take affirmative action that will be backed up and consistently enforced or there can be no real expectation of a minimum standard being maintained. It's human nature to behave just as you have seen here when there is not an adequate system of checks and balances in place. Note the word BALANCES, nothing is perfect so SOMEONE has to put his hand in and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what is being done and then DO something to make it right.

There needs to be leadership if you want this site to flourish. It doesn't have to be just you but you will need to assemble a good team. Either that or do what you need to to downsize to a number of members that you CAN adequately take care of and then stick to that.

It REALLY seems like you're having a tough time deciding what you want to do.... be the bad guy, keep the site up, give someone a break that wouldn't sit well with everyone, be wrong in everyone's eyes....and there is NOTHING wrong with thinking any of that.

When you're done thinking about it all that crap, do what your heart tells you to and don't look back. If you're as stressed as you sound it's time to poop or get off the pot.

Junkyard · Oct 19, 2005

WebSlave said:
Well now that answer appears rather obvious. I have been far too lenient on people here. I have allowed the crap to pile up too deeply for too long. My only defense was, I guess, that I wanted traffic to build on this site, and I felt that being too strong-armed and too hardlined about policies and rules would inhibit this growth. That may have been a mistake. Or maybe not. It may just have been what I had to put up with to get this site where it is now. But I don't think it is ever too late to take out the trash. What is not acceptable, is NEVER taking it out.

This statement reminded of some friends I have, they are in a similar boat as you, just on a different course and ocean.

I know a couple who own a small Mom and Pop's grocery store. They do not sell alcohol and they do not open on Sunday. A Walmart moved in across the street. Their days were numbered and over with, so they thought. When it came down to maybe losing business they could have started to sell alcohol and open on Sunday, this would certainly help them make money, and people constantly told them this. They stuck to their beliefs and did not did not fall into the pressure. Their friends who loved them and accepted their beliefs did not go to Walmart and spread the news that this little store was going to stay. Still they are there across from Walmart with more business than before.

Rich, what ever you decide we will be here to help. As friends here we will uphold your rules(hopefully)I have already noticed a change in the last few days on the posts made. Many here have been careful and more concerned about what is going on here. Keep up the work you are doing, any changes you make we will stand behind you. We do not want problem posters here any more than you do, they are annoying and a bother. Yes they will continue to come around and than leave, but do not slack off(That goes for EVERYONE here). This will make the sight far more comforting to new people and less dramatic(we all have enough drama going on in our lives as it is, the last thing we need are poor relations here). You will continue to have more success and growth, this is a choice website because of all the good that happens here.

Maybe you should post a big sticky on the forums letting everyone know what will not be tolerated and you expect us to help keep your site clean and you want to be notified of any trouble. This will definitely open some eyes and help cool things.

I have been here for a while now and I just recently discovered the paranormal, admin, and laughs forum, I did not know they existed, I only stuck with a few forums. I am sure many people do this and this could mean they will never read this thread. With a general sticky on every thread like you did with the Sig Line sticky will do a lot of good.

Junkyard · Oct 19, 2005

With a general sticky on every thread like you did with the Sig Line sticky will do a lot of good.

I meant Forum not Thread.

Golden Gate Geckos · Oct 19, 2005

There wouldn't be any improper use of the signature area if your programmer could make it impossible for there to be more than 4 lines when entering it on the user CP.

nicolai · Oct 19, 2005

Golden Gate Geckos said:
There wouldn't be any improper use of the signature area if your programmer could make it impossible for there to be more than 4 lines when entering it on the user CP.

she is right. There is already a 200 character limit now. if you try to hit save after you edited your signature area and it is over 200 characters it gives you "signature must be under 200 characters". I am sure it could also give a message "signature must be no more than 4 lines".

With all the major infractions happening here on a daily basis you might consider helping us to help you (does that make sense??). I mean you could make it a little more "fool proof" of "mistake proof" or "error Proof" to limit the number of honest mstakes that really dont warrant the addition of points and fines. I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it but do you really want to penalize people who are honestly try to do the right thing and made a honest mistake. How do you think that makes you look in the eyes of the members, And it is members that help you fund the site and help you keep the site alive. Besides if you automate a lot of the little stuff it would be less headaches for you and you could focus your efforts elsewhere.

WebSlave · Oct 19, 2005

Wilomn said:
You know what Rich? You should just bite the bullet and make a list and kick them out. Just do it. Whoever is on it is gone and so are your headaches. There is nothing wrong with Vanilla.

I prefer to give everyone a chance to change for the better. If they can't then they are out. There is a short list of people whom I expected to get trouble from, and I mostly have not been disappointed. They know, or should know, that they are in the crosshairs and they need to change or leave. That decision is up to them, right now. It's a hair trigger that will set off the fines and suspensions, so I think this will not be a subtle message for them to pick up on. The first shots are the equivalent of rock salt in a 12 gauge aimed at the butt. If that doesn't work to get their attention, then I am fully prepared to implement permanent bans.

To anyone reading this who thinks it may apply to them, I don't particularly want to lose anyone, but at this point I think this site has more to gain by doing so then NOT doing so. So I am putting aside my dislikes and doing what I think is best.

kiote9 · Oct 20, 2005

WebSlave said:
As of this moment, there are 23,426 registered members on this site. However, on any given day, NEVER has there been more then 1,300 members visiting.

I don't understand those numbers. What has prompted so many people to register here, yet something keeps the far greater majority of them from becoming active daily participants. What is chasing people away? Is there an obvious solution to this problem that I am overlooking because of some sort of tunnel vision?

I used to be an active daily participant. I loved this site. No where else could I find such a mix of information, camaraderie, conflict and entertainment.

Now I am sad to see what has happened. No one really knows where they stand or what is going to happen next. It's like a post war zone, waiting for someone to come in and give direction in the aftermath of a holocaust.

People are posting as though they are afraid, asking if what they are saying is alright. I am sure that others are like me and are just plain afraid to speak their minds. I keep logging in and looking for an end to the instability, looking for an answer.

I'll keep checking back to see if this place is ever comfortable enough to settle back in, but I don't think it will be. Why post here, though.

Oh well, it is just a forum. If only I didn't miss the people....

Where am I going wrong with this site?

It is what it is, but certainly not what it was.

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