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04-06-2007, 11:12 AM

Hi Everyone.
I've been watching this thread with interest. I've also spoken with Tammy and found her to be completely honest, nice and incredibly knowledgeable, we sure need a lot more people like her.
I'd like to toss my impressions out and see if we can really have a dialog about it without the arguments that are normally associated with this virus. Ok? If I'm wrong, I want to know it, but I don't want to start another flame fest.

We know there is a problem, how big of a problem is an unknown at this point. We have animals that test positive for AV and are still beautiful, healthy, thriving animals.
We have animals that are AV positive that aren't as healthy, they fail to thrive and are sickly.
We have high clutch mortality on SOME positive dragons.
We have negative animals that may or may not have been exposed to infected animals, and continue to test negative, but we are unsure if they will continue to test this way, and what happens with an animal that tests negative NOW, tests negative after breeding, but a year down the line tests positive with no additional exposure to this virus? That's a big question.
Some negative animals are exposed daily to positive animals and NEVER get AV. This opens a bigger question as to natural immunity.

My take on this issue changes as I get more information. Right now, I think we all need to keep an open mind and be willing to accept that there may be in fact harmless strains of AV that might make a dragon test positive, but there are no die offs related to that animal.

The question has to be, as a community, how do we come together and participate to contribute to the research when so much of what is important here can ONLY be determined by breeder honesty?

My personal opinion is this:
Negative animals should be separated and protected and TESTED regularly for any change in status. A negative test once doesn't really tell you anything, but repeated negative testing does. If you have an animal in your care that tests negative for a couple years, then suddenly tests positive with NO ADDITIONAL exposure, that information should be tracked and studied.
Additionally, negative animals that are housed with positive dragons for years without any issues and continue to test negative can also tell us a lot. If this virus spreads as aggressively as everyone believes, what is so unique about these animals?
I have a feeling that answer can be found with additional research. I, for example, was born with a natural immunity to Hepatitis B. I never knew it. I worked as a social worker for a long time, and one day I was directly exposed to blood from a Heb B positive person. I had to go through testing, and the doctor asked me if I had a Hep B shot and I said no, and he said that it appeared I had because my body was showing natural antibodies for Hep B, as does about 10% of the population. We're simply born immune.
If there are Bearded Dragons born immune for some reason to AV, I can't even begin to tell you how big a thing that could be. As I was born immune from Hep B, I managed to pass that natural immunity to 3 of my 4 biological children.

Animals that test positive and thrive anyway, I have no issues at all with those animals being bred and sold, as LONG as people are honest about it. I know that may not be popular with some people, but as long as there are no answers, its a bit hard to expect people to be honest if they are going to be penalized for it. We need to seriously watch these animals are track their clutch mortality rates and the growth rates of their offspring, not to mention that testing from these animals might indeed help to isolate viral strains that are not causing any harm.

Animals that test positive that don't thrive, are under-sized, have health issues at ANY point in their lives, including repeated parasitic overloads, or that come from or have clutches with high mortality rates should NEVER, EVER be bred. That's why breeders need to be honest AND comply to at least some sort of minimum standards for breeding. If not, we'll see BD's head in the same direction as pure bred dogs with genetic defects and health issues so entrenched in the animals that the whole breed is suspect.
In a hobby so dependent right now on the honor of breeders, Fauna and forums like it can be a big help in getting answers, but we all have to be willing to LISTEN. The next few years are going to be critical, and we need people willing to fight the good fight.
Tammy, if you read this, I'm sorry I had to cut the conversation short yesterday and I hope we can continue it at your convenience. My phone kept me busy until pretty late last night, but I believe that you're one of the most knowledgeable people in this industry, and I'm very interested in anything you have to say. At this point, you're probably one of the ONLY people in this industry I wouldn't hesitate to do business with because of your straight forward and honest attitude. Hats off to you.

04-06-2007, 11:12 AM	#124
Denisebme	Hi Everyone. I've been watching this thread with interest. I've also spoken with Tammy and found her to be completely honest, nice and incredibly knowledgeable, we sure need a lot more people like her. I'd like to toss my impressions out and see if we can really have a dialog about it without the arguments that are normally associated with this virus. Ok? If I'm wrong, I want to know it, but I don't want to start another flame fest. We know there is a problem, how big of a problem is an unknown at this point. We have animals that test positive for AV and are still beautiful, healthy, thriving animals. We have animals that are AV positive that aren't as healthy, they fail to thrive and are sickly. We have high clutch mortality on SOME positive dragons. We have negative animals that may or may not have been exposed to infected animals, and continue to test negative, but we are unsure if they will continue to test this way, and what happens with an animal that tests negative NOW, tests negative after breeding, but a year down the line tests positive with no additional exposure to this virus? That's a big question. Some negative animals are exposed daily to positive animals and NEVER get AV. This opens a bigger question as to natural immunity. My take on this issue changes as I get more information. Right now, I think we all need to keep an open mind and be willing to accept that there may be in fact harmless strains of AV that might make a dragon test positive, but there are no die offs related to that animal. The question has to be, as a community, how do we come together and participate to contribute to the research when so much of what is important here can ONLY be determined by breeder honesty? My personal opinion is this: Negative animals should be separated and protected and TESTED regularly for any change in status. A negative test once doesn't really tell you anything, but repeated negative testing does. If you have an animal in your care that tests negative for a couple years, then suddenly tests positive with NO ADDITIONAL exposure, that information should be tracked and studied. Additionally, negative animals that are housed with positive dragons for years without any issues and continue to test negative can also tell us a lot. If this virus spreads as aggressively as everyone believes, what is so unique about these animals? I have a feeling that answer can be found with additional research. I, for example, was born with a natural immunity to Hepatitis B. I never knew it. I worked as a social worker for a long time, and one day I was directly exposed to blood from a Heb B positive person. I had to go through testing, and the doctor asked me if I had a Hep B shot and I said no, and he said that it appeared I had because my body was showing natural antibodies for Hep B, as does about 10% of the population. We're simply born immune. If there are Bearded Dragons born immune for some reason to AV, I can't even begin to tell you how big a thing that could be. As I was born immune from Hep B, I managed to pass that natural immunity to 3 of my 4 biological children. Animals that test positive and thrive anyway, I have no issues at all with those animals being bred and sold, as LONG as people are honest about it. I know that may not be popular with some people, but as long as there are no answers, its a bit hard to expect people to be honest if they are going to be penalized for it. We need to seriously watch these animals are track their clutch mortality rates and the growth rates of their offspring, not to mention that testing from these animals might indeed help to isolate viral strains that are not causing any harm. Animals that test positive that don't thrive, are under-sized, have health issues at ANY point in their lives, including repeated parasitic overloads, or that come from or have clutches with high mortality rates should NEVER, EVER be bred. That's why breeders need to be honest AND comply to at least some sort of minimum standards for breeding. If not, we'll see BD's head in the same direction as pure bred dogs with genetic defects and health issues so entrenched in the animals that the whole breed is suspect. In a hobby so dependent right now on the honor of breeders, Fauna and forums like it can be a big help in getting answers, but we all have to be willing to LISTEN. The next few years are going to be critical, and we need people willing to fight the good fight. Tammy, if you read this, I'm sorry I had to cut the conversation short yesterday and I hope we can continue it at your convenience. My phone kept me busy until pretty late last night, but I believe that you're one of the most knowledgeable people in this industry, and I'm very interested in anything you have to say. At this point, you're probably one of the ONLY people in this industry I wouldn't hesitate to do business with because of your straight forward and honest attitude. Hats off to you.