Thoughts on reciprocity?

Hi there folks. As a buyer who has been criticized (though not strongly, for risk of self-over-incrimination) for having high standards for sellers, I have a question for the community. I buy quite a few reptiles in various genres, and I read the BOI, and I keep confronting the same scenario -- someone inquires, the breeder holds the animal, buyer drops the ball or stalls, and everybody is upset. I agree, that "buyer" is problematic. However, how reciprocal is the burden?

Today, I saw a bearded dragon I would have liked to buy. It was in an ad on a classifieds site that shall remain nameless, with one of its siblings. I responded to that ad within minutes of its posting and offered to pay immediately (and would follow through). The subsequent reply: that breeder had been in conversation with someone for a couple weeks (this was the first ad of the animal in question, so I presume the conversation was behind the scenes) and could not commit to selling it to me until the other buyer exercised their dibs (six hours later). Long story short, the other buyer wanted the same one as me, and I came out on the short end of the stick.

So, this may just be bitter grapes, but do you guys feel it is an ethical practice to float animals out there without the ability to sell them immediately? Not trying to stir anything up, hence the lack of names, but I am genuinely curious about the state of the field, and how burdens attach. I know I feel committed if I make a solid offer to a seller and they respond quickly. How committed is a seller, once they post the animal, and I respond? I totally understand first come, first served, but is it ethical to post an animal you aren't willing to sell immediately should money materialize?

I appreciate your comments, and I am only interested in improving the marketplace of ideas out there as we engage in discussion about the nature of the business. I have always found the BOI to be a great resource and anticipate enlightening input to this question.

Kris

First: Posting something for sale that already has a potential buyer is done in other businesses all the time. With a potential buyer the item is not sold but on hold. Listing it for sale only lines up other potential buyers so that it will increase the chances of a quick sale for the owner.

Second: The seller told you immediately that the item was on hold until he could contact his potential buyer. He didn't state that you could have it then take it back when the first sale came through.

I guess I don't see what the problem is.

First, This thread should probably be moved because the business is not being named and there really wasn't a transaction.
Although I do agree that listing an animal that has "maybe" been spoken for two weeks prior to listing to be in poor taste (at the least). I do find the sellers honesty acceptable, but there is a very good chance I wouldn't bother to ever inquire into another animal listed by that specific seller.
So ethically I think it's OK to do that, but I find it a poor business practice that may cause the loss of future sales.

I've moved this to the General Business Discussions forum....

Just a theory, but it sounds like it could be an extension of the scenario you initially described - in which the buyer stalls/drops the ball. The seller might have been wanting to give him a nudge by showing that the animal could still be sold. Personally, if I had a buyer stringing me along, I would let them know that, if they didn't follow through, the animal(s) would be relisted. If I went through the trouble of relisting, it would be sold to the first buyer with cash.
IMO, an animal with a pending sale shouldn't be posted. If the communications haven't resulted in an actual sale, then it should be considered up for grabs.

I don't see much of a problem with it. After all, by responding so early, you were #2 on the list, and the first person that he'd been talking to could easily have backed out. Perhaps he expected him to back out?
I probably wouldn't list something that I thought might be sold... but I'd be one of the sellers on here griping constantly about buyers backing out on deals all the time too, and lookie-loos asking 50 questions and then never following through.
Maybe he's smarter than me? And it's better for his income to list, even if it MIGHT be sold? I wouldn't hold it against a seller, at any rate, especially if he was honest about it right away.
Definitely not unethical IMO.

I appreciate the feedback from people in the industry that has been posted so far, and in the interest of the informative purpose of this thread, I hope you will continue to indulge me by answering my questions. This is not the first time that I have received this type of response to an immediate inquiry about a classified ad (3 times, actually). What is my best strategy for getting a high-end animal? As an outsider to the breeders, I always thought that if I just watched classifieds like a hawk and responded fast, I would be able to get what I want. Apparently (with the high-end ones anyway) I need to establish a relationship well ahead of buying an animal so that I can get access to these animals. How do I go about doing that, if not through the classifieds? And the implication to the question -- are the classifieds just for animals either so low-end that demand is low or so high-end that nobody else is interested? I think you guys have totally valid concerns about the plethora of buyers who back out, but what about my reciprocal concern about sellers that don't actually want to sell (to me, anyway)?

Kris

That is a great question, Kris, and when you figure out the answer, let me know! I've been bummed at my local reptile show, 2 years running, to realize that most of the deals take place between breeders before the show is even open to the public. I've thought about getting a table, then not even setting anything up, to get a chance to see the 'good stuff'.

Prices, also, can be quite frustrating. You and I will likely pay much more for a given animal than a 'pro'.

Relationships, I think, are the best we can do. What those other folks have that we do not is familiarity, a 'knownness', trustworthiness, reputation, etc. I have tried to linger around here, read as much as I can, and selectively pick people I would like to buy from. Then, through repeated dealings and communication, I think I am receiving/ will receive the benefits of 'trusted buyer' status or whatever you want to call it.

If you choose to buy multiple snakes from the same person, the first is likely to cost more than it would have to. The benefit of doing this, of course, is that future dealings should be more 'friendly' towards you.

I will never really have any buying power or pull in this hobby. I just hope to find a few good breeders who are good people that will honor my repeat business by decreasing their margins a bit to show appreciation for coming back to them. So far, so good :-).

There are a few scumbags on here, but they're usually outed pretty quickly. I've been really fortunate in that the folks I've bought from who are here are AWESOME and I am finding a few more that I would love to deal with (if only they'd let me know what they have......).

To make a long post longer, pick someone with a good reputation and KEEP buying from them. I'm sure you'll reach 'preferred status' with them before too long.

You have a seller that is talking to someone 'behind the scenes' about an animal for sale, but that seller posts an ad for the same item, and won't sell it because he's got someone that can't make up their mind after 2 weeks?
I don't do business like that. As a buyer, if I want something, I make my intentions known & work out the details, complete with deposit, payment in full, etc.
As a seller (one day), I would not allow for a 'possible' deal to drag on for that long. Unless the money has been put on it, I'd consider it AVAILABLE.
It's been said time & again: If the money hasn't changed hands, it's not a done deal.
Whether it's the buyer stringing the seller along, or the seller stringing another buyer along while waiting for the first 'buyer', I think it's just bad business. I wouldn't do business that way, and I sure wouldn't let someone do it to me!

If we take a deposit on an animal we don't remove the adverts for that animal, it's not sold until cash is in hand. Leaving the adverts out there means if you are let down you hopefully have had other interested parties contact you.

This thread brings to mind an interesting question I have been thinking about recently. As a seller you have a couple of options in terms of dealing with potential buyers. You can use a first come first served mentality where the first one that gives you the money gets the goods. However, you can also use the "this person emailed me first and they get first shot at it" approach. I have used both as a seller and have had both used on me as a buyer. I am not sure which one that I feel is best. As a seller I have had lots of people express interest and then back out of the deal. When I hold the animal (essentially that is what I am doing anyway), other potential buyers can go elsewhere and purchase. Using the first to pay idea solves this problem but I am not sure how I feel about this. I think that my current philosophy on the subject is that the animal is available until there is a deposit on it. As long as the buyer puts a deposit on the purchase I will hold the animal. If the person that put the deposit down backs out (and loses their deposit) the animals goes back up for sale. If no deposit is placed, the animal will remain for sale.