What makes a whiteout a whiteout

garweft · Nov 6, 2011

i have been wondering this for a while, and a recent BOI thread really has me wondering.....

What's so special about a whiteout?

IMHO the snakes often pictured are not outside of the realm of what is common in the other morphs involved. They are just nicely blushed out examples with floating alien heads. That's pretty common in cinnamons and lesser/butters already, so I'm not seeing what's so special here?

Misf!t · Nov 6, 2011

I'm in the same boat, and I've been following the same BOI thread..

The snakes are gorgeous, but it really just looks like what I've seen called 'reduced'? I've seen bees and bees and bees that have high whites up the sides and I always assumed that's what reduced or high white really meant. Only recently am I starting to see them being called 'whiteouts'. I'm a small time breeder who isn't working with these traits, and I haven't been in the know with morphs in a bit... but what's the difference really? Am I understanding the other terms incorrectly?

(Not the hijack the thread, I thought it might help to clear up some of that. :])

Diego Velarde · Nov 6, 2011

Matthew, I wish I could help on the whiteout stuff but I cant (hopefully next year when babies start hatching) but I will provide some input on the citrus line.
I am a true fan of pastels, when I saw what a citrus pastel looks like in person I immediately knew I needed one.

I bought mine before the whiteout bomb (before the prices went to the roof) and I couldnt be any happier :yesnod:

. He's probably the best pastel male I've seen and will kick most of my pastels' butt on a side by side comparison. Also the citrus combos Rick posted on the BOI thread look way better than my regular pastel combos side by side (we did a side by side comparison just yesterday) Those things are jaw droppers.

Everyone knows that most pastels line brown up when older. Citrus pastels orange up and I mean that in a good way.
I got my little guy as a hatchling. He's now almost 1000 grams and I think he's gotten better looking. Like I said hopefully I'm able to produce some of that whiteout stuff next year but if I dont... who cares... as long as they have citrus in them they will be badass!

Misf!t · Nov 6, 2011

Oooh. Citruses -orange- out. Dang, I wish I had done a little bit of research into them when I first saw one. I was thinking it was just another one of those butterlessermojave's or mochajavawhatevers. I've become a little cynical about 'new' morphs, since most of the time it just seems like a subtle thing and someone names it something else.

Thanks for explaining that bit, it's good to know citrus pastels are actually different from pastels, haha. I wish I had nabbed one now! I gotta pay more attention to new morphs I guess. ;]

garweft · Nov 7, 2011

I do see the differences in citrus line pastels and other pastels. But then again there were very noticeable differences in the other lines of pastel at one point as well. Once people start breeding citrus lines to any available female I won't be surprised to see them become just another pastel.

My issue is with what people are calling whiteouts. The best examples shown seem to always be cinny or mojo/lesser/butter combos which regularly throw blushed out babies with high white on the sides and floating alien heads. The normal pastel whiteouts and just normal whiteouts don't look very standout to me. A little thicker white border on the alien heads near the belly doesn't scream hot new morph to me.

The first few calicos I saw were the same way, not really standout. But after a few higher white calicos started being produced it gave the morph validity. I have yet see that with whiteouts.

rcpreis3 · Nov 7, 2011

Referring the two "lines" being discussed i think both of the people are blowing smoke up our butts. I see nuthing special with either line. They just look like nice examples of a the morphs. Its like saying the graziani pastels have a secret hidden gene that makes them blush better than other pastels. Its not a hidden gene, its called selective breeding. In order for to even consider the whiteout something special id have to see a normal whiteout which neither breeder has ever produced. ( or atleast hasnt annouced its production)

BreedersCircle · Nov 7, 2011

Hello everyone.
Just wanted to let everyone know that Amir will be a guest for an entire hour on .com this sunday at 11:00 PM EST
Since he is the originator of the citrus whiteout, he is the person best qualified to answer the questions surrounding it all.
I have been busy moving into my new facility but when I get time I will post some pictures of snakes and markers so it may be a little easier to see what is going on with this gene.

Hope everyone is well!
thanks
Jonathan

Misf!t · Nov 8, 2011

rcpreis3 said:
Referring the two "lines" being discussed i think both of the people are blowing smoke up our butts. I see nuthing special with either line. They just look like nice examples of a the morphs. Its like saying the graziani pastels have a secret hidden gene that makes them blush better than other pastels. Its not a hidden gene, its called selective breeding. In order for to even consider the whiteout something special id have to see a normal whiteout which neither breeder has ever produced. ( or atleast hasnt annouced its production)

This apparently is the normal "washout" according to World of Ball Pythons:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/washout/

Evidently this is the morph on its own.

rcpreis3 · Nov 8, 2011

So normals get cool names now?

I dont see whats so special?

Not trashing anyone or saying theres a scam going, I just cant see what all the excitement is about...

rcpreis3 · Nov 8, 2011

Hey check out my new "Thunder Blunder" female,

And heres my male to go with her,

MrBig · Nov 9, 2011

Hey Ian I have one of those as well. LOL

I don't think it looks that special by itself, or in at least 50% of the crosses I've seen. That Mojave pastel washout was interesting though, and I've seen a few citrus pastel whitouts that were simply amazing. But were they amazing because of the whitout or the citrus?

rcpreis3 · Nov 9, 2011

LMAO! You called me Ian again Mike. But I know what you mean. I'd be more inclined to believe in your "Paradox Normal." :rofl:

I personally feel that alil more "research" shoulda been done before it became the big stink it is now. The BOI thread that sparked this was ridiculous by page 3, and its all over controversial genetics to begin with. I got a dinker in the proccess now that didnt prove Dom or Codom, hopefully next year we'll find out if its Reccessive or not. And if its not to the standards I set to consider a morph credible, Im gonna try again the next year. Just incase I get bad odds or just low expression offspring in the first year. Then if I dont hatch what im looking for by then, all the babies go as normals, I decide which girls are close enough to be breeding size and keep them to breed as normals, and then I have one of the coolest looking normal male ball pythons in the world and no one can reproduce it, which makes him one of a kind. And Im pretty content with that.

This whole whiteout issue is just a selective breeding thing IMO. At the most Ill let it get a RTB Coral Albino expression of genetics, ( true Corals, not Pastel Albinos, or high pink normal Albinos) but ill need to see alot more data and information before ill go that far.

MrBig · Nov 9, 2011

Darn it Robert, I always look at your sig when I reply. I've actually sqaid something about a post of yours to my wife and called you Ian. So we'll just go with it from now on and I won't even attempt to call you Robert, I now dub the Sir Ian.

I think there is something going on with that particular line of citrus pastels, but I don't truly beleive it to be a differant genetic mutation, simply a better looking one of a known mutation ie pastel. I think it's more likely that one particular pastel import had a "stronger" pastel mutation and thus the offspring shares the desired traits of a pastel. The Mojave pastel washout has me wondering though, that half white face says that there may be more then meets the eye. There are a number of morphs that are far to close to normals for my personal taste. If I feel if the base morph isn't unique enough, I won't get into that gene regardless of the combo potentials. I love BEL's and they are a main part of why I got into breeding, and I love pretty much all bel complex gene's. I wouldn't choose to work with the het russo's simply because I'm not enthralled with them as a base morph. Sorry guess I went alittle off topic.

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

A few citrus pics

Hello I just wanted to post a few pics of the citrus pastels in my collection. The markers that AMIR mentioned are visible in all the ciruses I have. The "horns" as he called them are visible even in the combos, the white blushing is there(on my citrus pastel whiteout there are even white flecks in the yellow in the alein head patterns), the dorsal blushing on the normal citrus pastels and whiteouts is a beautiful orange purple combo. My intent in posting is nothing rather than provide some examples of the markers everyone is asking for, imo they are amazing pastels and make much more vibrant crosses than any other pastel. Pictured are my Citrus Pastel Calico male 650grams, Citrus Whiteout Pastel female 700grams, Citrus pastel female 2000grams all three perfect transactions with Jon at breeders circle and a Citrus Yellow belly 650 grams and Super Citrus Yellow belly 300grams which were both purchased from AMIR and as he mentioned he offwered to buy back any animals you were not happy wityh from the citus line, no way any of my babys will be going back and none of them were cheap. Whatever is proved from the whiteout line I am more than happy with all my Citrus snakes and the people who I purchased them from and will be doing more business with both in the future. The female that is up to size may be bred this season by the citrus calico or my male puma so if I pop out some of the super Citrus calicos that are crazy faded Ill throw them up. Hope you enjoy the pics

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

smaller Citrus Whiteout Female

Here arwe the pics of the smaller girl a Citrus Whiteout

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

Bigger Citrus Girl

Pics of the bigger Citrus Pastel

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

Citrus Yellow Belly

Pics of the Citrus Yellow Belly

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

Super Citrus Yellow Belly

And last but not least the Super Citrus Pastel Yellow Belly and both the pastel genes are citrus. The color in between her pattern is a light glowing orange and she has a yellow dot in the middle of her head, one of my favorite snakes. Enjoy

rcpreis3 · Nov 14, 2011

L admit its a pretty line of pastel, but i just cant see the whiteout. Honestly i dont even know what the markers are and cant really tell the difference between citrus and citrus whiteout. :shrug:

gotbit1985 · Nov 14, 2011

Definately hard to tell well worth it in my opinion though. Look at the difference between the citrus super stripe and pastel super stripes completely different. I think it would be great with enchi, fire, orange dream. A few things that I understand are supposed to be markers are the horn like look of the head stripe, different looking fading, youcan see on the citrus whiteout that there are white flecks all over and not so on the regular citrus pastel, also the heads and area in between pattern are lighter than a normal pastel at birth, theyalso havea different color dorsal fading/blushing than other pastels and has quit a bit of dorsal blushing. Hope that helps some just go compare a bunch of pics, I have a regular pastel yb that makes my citrus yb look like a super

What makes a whiteout a whiteout

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