USARK NO More

JohnRougeux said:

So I'll just start a new thread? Someone else brought it up because Dr. Booth had in fact responded several times at that site, so they referenced it.

That's how it's relevant to this thread.

And just dropping it because it's "best" is strange. I thought that I was just asking a question. Can you please point me to the rule book here so that I don't step on any more hidden landmines?

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There is a Feedback Forum here on this site where such discussions concerning policies and procedures are more appropriate.

Started a new thread.
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Back on subject:
Question for Dr. Booth:
If USARK is now joining forces with PIJAC, isn't that not good? Didn't PIJAC support the Ohio ban?

If PIJAC is the same as the one who supported the ban in Ohio, why should we support USARK?

Unless something happened I thought PIJAC supported the public not to support ban

http://www.petproductnews.com/headl...public-to-oppose-ohios-exotic-animal-ban.aspx

John,
People appear to think that it is cut and dry. There is only one direction. All or nothing. PIJAC worked with the state on the Ohio issue fighting to have reptiles removed completely. That was not going to happen and it was very evident that was the case. What they did do was have all constricting snakes under 12 removed from the bill. Does everyone really think that in this day and age we can live in a world without regulation. That is coming and all we can forbid fight it. We can compromise or lose completely on issues. With that compromise comes the ability to fight it later. I would prefer to fight a smaller number of issues than a complete ban.

http://www.pijac.org/_documents/pijac_oh_reptile_bill_gov_desk.pdf

We are in a very difficult time as reptile keepers. We must understand that in some situations me must initially compromise. Once sufficient scientific data is collected, we can then fight.

Warren

Joe, you are correct.
Lots will jump on band wagons without actually reading and discussing the tactics and results. It appears to be human nature nowadays.
Warren

JohnRougeux said:

Started a new thread.
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Back on subject:
Question for Dr. Booth:
If USARK is now joining forces with PIJAC, isn't that not good? Didn't PIJAC support the Ohio ban?

If PIJAC is the same as the one who supported the ban in Ohio, why should we support USARK?

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John:

Did you read USARK's proposed NC Legislation?

If not, read it, then read the provisions in SB310.

Both the proposed NC legislation and the bill that PIJAC supported represent varying degrees of self-imposed rules. Both had their faults.

Now, somewhere USARKs lawyer, Chen-Walsh, penned a nifty little essay on how USARK's proposed compromise in NC was better than PIJAC's compromise in Ohio. In the end compromise is compromise - no matter how many shades of gray you try to color it. You either compromise or you don't. No amount of quoting Sun-Tzu is going to change that. If you have to explain why your version of compromise is superior to that of a rival, then to most black and white minds you're not fighting war, but setting out terms of surrender. Sadly in some cases, a compromise is a win.

My take is this: there are those that believe that self-regulation is the key to staving off outright bans. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not, that was a position USARK advocated taking - on their terms.......and those terms amounted to a degree of capitulation by some.

PIJAC has been there for awhile. Why USARK come out of the box as an alternative to PIJAC instead of uniting with PIJAC is beyond me - but any recent collaborations between the two are just that - recent.

If USARK had worked cooperatively with PIJAC from the outset and first tried to integrate their focused views with PIJAC's infrastructure and lobbying clout maybe something positive could have come out of this - if you believe in the value of compromises.

PIJAC doesn't always make decisions based on the best interests of reptile owners - but that could have changed if USARK had taken a different path.

You've seen the financial statements, John. USARK does not pull in enough money to take anything on head on. ZooMed contributions amount to a full third of their budget, with show donations taking up the majority of the rest. Voluntary paypal donations are downright pathetic. This is not an organization primed to stand up to anyone.

The real issue lies here - any future PIJAC/USARK actions will most likely result in compromises akin to SB310 or pre-emptive bills like those USARK penned in North Carolina. There will always be a sizable number of reptile keepers who think it is stupid to give anything up and in order to clear up alot of the bad blood, USARK needs to be very upfront about their BMPs and model legislation.

That's where a lot of people dismissed USARK as not their cup of tea - a lot of boisterous talk and call to arms, and then self-imposed legislation like NC. Anyway Chen-Walsh or Wyatt want to explain it, that "take no prisoners"group will hate them for it.

Going forward, Dr. Booth and his associates need to fully clear the air and stop pretending (as their predecessor did for so long) that they don't need PIJAC, they need to be upfront with why pre-emptive legislation or compromises may be necessary and they need to not let their mouths write checks their asses can't cash. These were hallmarks of USARK 2008-2012 and need to stop.

Anybody who has been closely watching USARK these past four years started smelling that something was off awhile ago. I've seen PIJAC compromise at times and outright win at times, but through it all they do it without the chest thumping and BS pumping that was the hallmark of the USARK hit and run forum post. They have also been an better source at being on top even the smallest of local issues. While Wyatt was celebrating a 50% non-victory with the Feds and claiming a battlefield win over a bill that expired, I watched PIJAC swiftly and effectively clobber down a couple of local issues in my neck of the woods that were not even on USARK's radar.

Remember, the hollowest drum beats the loudest. By the yardsticks in which these things are measured, the most effective pet special interest group (even counting SB310) is PIJAC, not USARK. Unfortunately for the "all or nothing" crowd, there will be compromises................our hobby is not powerful enough (at this stage of the game) to begin to act otherwise.

Craig,
I do not have time to respond fully now but I will say this. We (USARK) has the opportunity to unify the herp community here pulling together the hobbyist with the big box stores. Realistically, we benefit each other here. Chest thumping was a characteristic of a dingle individual in USARKs history. That is gone. The board are taking charge of USARK. We have realized there was a flaw in the way USARK was run and that is being amended. We have learned a lot in the past few months.

There are individuals that have never supported USARK. I would personally love to see them take an active role in forming a new association aimed at fighting this legislation. There is a lot of chest thumping from a small group of individuals that in the end of the day gets the hobby nowhere but creates division, not the formation of bonds and the future directions.

Warren

Warren_Booth said:

Craig,
I do not have time to respond fully now but I will say this. We (USARK) has the opportunity to unify the herp community here pulling together the hobbyist with the big box stores. Realistically, we benefit each other here. Chest thumping was a characteristic of a dingle individual in USARKs history. That is gone. The board are taking charge of USARK. We have realized there was a flaw in the way USARK was run and that is being amended. We have learned a lot in the past few months.

There are individuals that have never supported USARK. I would personally love to see them take an active role in forming a new association aimed at fighting this legislation. There is a lot of chest thumping from a small group of individuals that in the end of the day gets the hobby nowhere but creates division, not the formation of bonds and the future directions.

Warren

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Dr. Booth, I'm aware that person is gone and that the Board wants to steer this ship into friendlier and more productive waters.

One of the first things that should be addressed is why USARK and PIJAC cannot take an "it's our way or the highway approach". That philosophy was tacitly fostered by your predecessor and almost single-handed led to a number of early supporters walking away when they saw it was not the game plan.

Some of us may not like compromise, but if the details are explained in layman's terms in a clear and upfront manner, a lot of people will appreciate how the transparency.

What Chen-Walsh did in her essay was the icing on the cake for a lot of us. It confirmed what we saw as both a misleading message and bald hypocrisy. There are a lot of people out there who think USARK is a bit of a joke. That's a direct result of that single individual you mentioned.

I think the only way forward is compromise. The my way or the highway is these struggles will most likely lead to the highway. I personally do not want that.

The goal will be to pull in all herpers, with as you put it "layman's terms" explanations. For example, why we must compromise in some instances.

I have not seen Chen-Walsh's article. I cannot comment but can say she is no longer with USARK, nor to my knowledge was she voted on to the board or into Vice President status by the board. If she aided USARK I truly appreciate that but personally could not tell you what she has or has not done for USARK.

It's time for change in leadership and unity. I am not sure how many more times I can state that, but we have a unique opportunity to right many previous wrongs. We cannot go guns blazing into this. We need collaboration and must accept compromise at times. With compromise comes the chance for future amendment if smaller issues, not complete bans.

Warren

Thanks for the response Dr Booth.

My concern with compromise is that once something is passed, it is easier to add and much harder to veto. At least from my little knowledge of politics.

I understand your point of view. Not sure if I agree with it, but I will keep an open mind. I really do agree about that we need to stop bickering and join forces. But when even websites are divided and refuse to try to make amends, it shows me that we are going to have a hard time defeating hsus

John,
Believe me when I say this, I would rather see no compromise, however the likelihood of that is slim to zero. Compromise on some issues will have to happen. Whether that will make it hard to Vito we will have to see.

Take care,
Warren

The NC law and Ohio law are not the same. Very different. NC has no permits, fees, micro-chipping or registry. The Ohio law does. The NC law is by keeper for keeper. Ohio law was written mostly by lawmakers. In NC the main requirements are that species listed be in locking or latching enclosures and transport containers and venomous has to have a bite protocol. That generally sums it up. It was drafted and instituted to block any further efforts by animal rights groups to impose a ban or stricter regulations on the state of NC by NCARK before it became USARK. It was a tactic that has served us well and now we only worry on a county to township basis. And not many know it but before the NC Cetain Reptile law, venomous was illegal in the state.
My understanding was USARK proposed the NC model legislation to Ohio. The "no compromise/from my cold dead hands" crowd was against it all the way and blocked that move. Now they are stuck with a worse law requiring fees, registration, microchips and permits which is in all, just another form of tax and a defacto ban on future ownership.
I have mixed feelings on the Ohio situation. For one HSUS was out saying the reptile part had the teeth filed out of it and of course; they wanted more done. On the other hand we lost more than we feel we should have. Apparently no one is happy but knowing our true enemies are not satisfied takes a lil bit of the sting out of it. Then again in a perfect world.......
Now I want to thank Dr Warren Booth for taking time from his vacation across the pond to touch on the issue. He did not have to do that and it could all be left up to official statements under ARK letterhead leaving us all to speculate and pontificate further. Like we really need anymore of that. Right after news of the resignation I told a close friend "I wanna hear what Booth thinks before I start getting ideas." We have met and know a lot of the same good people. He's good for the cause.
Which leads me to thank Mr Krull and HRNR for staying on top of this and doing their shows spontaneously. They along with Dr Booth have been the only clarity through the static of rumors and gossip for myself.

Taking Up Serpents said:

The NC law and Ohio law are not the same. Very different. NC has no permits, fees, micro-chipping or registry. The Ohio law does. The NC law is by keeper for keeper. Ohio law was written mostly by lawmakers. In NC the main requirements are that species listed be in locking or latching enclosures and transport containers and venomous has to have a bite protocol. That generally sums it up. It was drafted and instituted to block any further efforts by animal rights groups to impose a ban or stricter regulations on the state of NC by NCARK before it became USARK. It was a tactic that has served us well and now we only worry on a county to township basis. And not many know it but before the NC Cetain Reptile law, venomous was illegal in the state.
My understanding was USARK proposed the NC model legislation to Ohio. The "no compromise/from my cold dead hands" crowd was against it all the way and blocked that move. Now they are stuck with a worse law requiring fees, registration, microchips and permits which is in all, just another form of tax and a defacto ban on future ownership.
I have mixed feelings on the Ohio situation. For one HSUS was out saying the reptile part had the teeth filed out of it and of course; they wanted more done. On the other hand we lost more than we feel we should have. Apparently no one is happy but knowing our true enemies are not satisfied takes a lil bit of the sting out of it. Then again in a perfect world.......
Now I want to thank Dr Warren Booth for taking time from his vacation across the pond to touch on the issue. He did not have to do that and it could all be left up to official statements under ARK letterhead leaving us all to speculate and pontificate further. Like we really need anymore of that. Right after news of the resignation I told a close friend "I wanna hear what Booth thinks before I start getting ideas." We have met and know a lot of the same good people. He's good for the cause.
Which leads me to thank Mr Krull and HRNR for staying on top of this and doing their shows spontaneously. They along with Dr Booth have been the only clarity through the static of rumors and gossip for myself.

Click to expand...

The NC law required registration:

§ 14-418.1. Registration of reptiles.
The owner of any venomous reptile, large constricting snake, or crocodilian, as defined in this Article, shall register the location of the reptile's housing with local law enforcement. Registration shall be made by December 1, 2010, and shall be updated on an annual basis, and within 30 days of any change in the location of the reptile's housing. Local law enforcement may charge an annual registration fee not to exceed fifty dollars ($50.00) per housing location of reptiles named in this Article.

It also allowed for searches and seizures. No, it's not the same as SB310...........but it can be made that way before you know it.

Robb, once legislation is on the books, it can be amended to suit the needs of whatever more powerful group decides to come along and use it as a basis for their platform.

Example, in California, select municipal agencies decided that it would be a good idea to adopt a Uniform Construction and Cost Accounting Act. This would allow them to not have to go to bid on routine maintenance and emergency work and would also offer them provisions to abbreviate the bidding process in certain circumstances.

It was not too long until Private special interest groups began amending this Act to their benefit. The large labor unions, private contractors, etc. are a more savvy and better funded force than any municipality. Once they began amending it, the "Act" (as it is known) became a tool that now severely hampers local agencies.

Private businesses turned the "Act" into something that almost totally restricts a local agency from responding to many types of routine maintenance and emergency work.

It is an example of why pre-emptive legislation isn't always pre-emptive. What's to stop a well funded and oiled machine like HSUS from slowly adding year by year amendments to the NC legislation? Before you know it, it becomes something much worse than what was intended.

I see no mention of it here in the Certain Reptile Law that was SB307. Not trying to argue or discredit but can you give a link to your source? I know of people that keep listed species and they should know as well as I to correct any mistakes I have made.
I do not know of any amendments made to the law and was never made aware of any. So it is possible, but unlikely it would never have come to my attention as the NC keeping community is pretty tight knit. I'm sure that USARK board members would have caught wind if their model legislation was being tampered with. But you could be right.

Link to NC law via NC General Assembly website-
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions/2009/Bills/Senate/PDF/S307v4.pdf

For the sake of not hijacking the thread, if need be post another or PM. Getting to the bottom of this is very important to me.
Thanks,
Blue

Erika N. Chen-Walsh, the Vice President of the new “Herp Alliance”. has interview on http://www.herpnation.com/audio/erik...-nation-radio/

She answers a few more things. I am not taking sides. It is just more info about this.

Interview with Warren Booth of USARK. Listen now at the link below....

http://www.herpnation.com/audio/usark-talks-with-herp-nation-radio/

Thanks,

Dan Krull
Herp Nation Media

The NC law does not require registration

For the final enacted legislation pertaining to large constrictors, crocodillains, and venomous reptiles please look here: http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_55.pdf . The regulations are basic and not intrusive in any fashion. The reality is that a ban was well within reach in NC and these regulations gave credibility to the keeping community.

NCARK/USARK were very important players in helping to prevent a ban in NC however the rewrite of Article 55 was not produced soley by this group. It was crafted by a consortium of public and private individuals and institutions under NCPARC's (http://www.ncparc.org/) Policy Regulation and Trade working group.

Based on the latest developments, and the fact that now there are multiple factions apparently involved with herp related legislative issues, I have decided to close this forum and move all threads into the General Legislative Discussions Forum. Otherwise I can see myself winding up in the position of having to offer a free forum to any and all such organizations who wish one, and I am just not willing to do that. So be prepared for this forum to vanish sometime REAL soon.

All such discussions can continue in the general forum without loss of content or focus, I believe.

Going on Phil's post, the idea that the NC bill written with NCARK was preemptive is laughable. NCARK stopped a bill that would have completely halted the reptile hobby in NC. Yes, it was preventative in nature. I'd much rather live under a set of completely reasonable measures instead of having to worry about when the next total ban would be introduced and requiring a ton of attention in order to possibly be dealt with.

Craig, I assume you didn't live in NC during that period, so just don't pretend to know what was going on. If you did, you'd realize that the bill that was introduced was on the herp community's behalf. This was a relief to every educated member of the NC herp community.

I have supported NCARK and then USARK for many years and I will continue to do so. These two organizations have had prominent roles in preserving my ability to pursue the hobby that I love. I don't care about personal drama within the organization. The records are open and that is the important part to me. I will research Andrew's new organization and decide whether or not to contribute to it as well. I feel that there has been a witch hunt going after Andrew for a long time due to a view that he wasn't drastic enough in his actions with the Burms, Rocks, and Anacondas.

I've always felt it was funny that people viewed this as compromising and sacrificing these animals for other ones. I have a different view. I don't feel that there was an option for these animals. He could have gone in there with the "tea party" mentality and he'd have been sent packing with nothing and the whole deal would have been screwed.

Chris

JCCS said:

........

I've always felt it was funny that people viewed this as compromising and sacrificing these animals for other ones. I have a different view. I don't feel that there was an option for these animals. He could have gone in there with the "tea party" mentality and he'd have been sent packing with nothing and the whole deal would have been screwed.

Chris

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I couldn't agree more. People really need to think about the big picture here and start being more reasonable. The fact is that some compromises need to be made. Does it suck? Yes. Is everyone going to be happy? No. But that is ALWAYS going to be the case, no matter what the issue at hand is.