This is just unbelievable to me..

This is a continuance of this thread-

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=321330#post321330


But Nicolai, you made it public. You said here in this thread that

a person made a comment at the end of thier post that was very disapointing to me to read that they were that unfeeling towards the "animals" they are breeding.

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Yet, you then send me a pm saying that "others" are "talking behind my back" because of this statement that I made in the latest Mack Snow fiasco of a thread:
In the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter, they're just geckos!

I will respect your wishes and not post your pm here. But I will post my reply to your pm, as they are my words and I can post them here if I wish. Here is what I wrote back to Nicolai:

Nicolai-

Well, this is pretty interesting. I'm surprised you didn't figure it out, and I am equally surprised that people are saying things like that.

My 13 year old son, my baby, died. Do you have children? If you do not then there is no way you can understand how devastating this is. The reason I said what I said about the big scheme of things and they are just geckos is because, that's what they are, geckos. They are not humans, they are not our children. Nor have I ever compared my geckos to my children, or said that they are like my children. How ridiculous! Do I care about my geckos? Of course! Do I take good care of them? Obviously. Do I hold them in the same regard as I do my children, my family, or another human being? Of course NOT.

I would like your permission to post about this on the forum. I would like to hear what others will say publically about this (non) issue.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention-
Kelli Hammack

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So is it "others" that are so upset about my statement, or is it you Nicolai?

I was very surprised, no, actually I was shocked to get your pm regarding that statement. Let me ask a question here. Do you, my fellow leopard gecko keepers, feel that your geckos are as important as your children? Your other family members? You true friends that you love and respect? Are they on an equal plane to other human beings? Do you love your geckos?

I can answer, unequivically, that no, they are not. I care about my geckos, I really like them, I enjoy taking care of them, I admire their beauty and cuteness. But are the squabbles over being included in the list of Mack Snow verified breeders really that important? DO we perhaps focus a little too much on issues such as that? Are leopard geckos really that important

In the big scheme of things

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???

No. They are not. That is the point I was trying to make. Here is a second pm I sent to Nicolai, after a couple minutes of pondering:

One more thing

I would deep fry every single leopard gecko I own if I could have Hayden back.

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Have fun by yourself in Hell, Nicolai. Perhaps this very thread will be moved there, and you can read it over and over again. Maybe as time passes you will see that my statement is so true. God, for your sake I truly hope not.

I feel the same way. While I would never purposefully harm any animal I own, I would never put them in front of a family member or friend in need. I would always try my hardest to make sure someone could take care of them in the event that such a thing were to become priority above them, but sometimes circumstances make that impossible. I don't believe a statement like yours makes you more negligible of an animal keeper, it is just human nature.

Nicolai's a good guy, Kelli. He just didn't know where you were coming from, I don't think.

Nicolai's a good guy, Kelli. He just didn't know where you were coming from, I don't think.

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Perhaps you are right Laura, I don't know as I don't know Nicolai, and he obviously has not the first clue as to what kind of person I am.

My statement was what it was. I was attempting to make the point that, hey, wait a minute guys! Hold on for a second here. I have learned the hard way that these Gecko Wars are not all that important when you compare them to what IS important, really. Family, true friends, real love. To even give such a situation as the thread in which I made my statement any real importance (in the big scheme of things, of course) is utterly ridiculous.

And really, why should I care what Nicolai or any one else thinks of me for making that statement? WHy should I even care enough to type this? Answer: I am a caring person. I am a sensitive person, to myself and to others. I wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes and I have no problem expressing my feelings and emotions. I am comfortable with who I am inside. So yes it does hurt me, getting messages like that, insinuating that "others" on this very website are talking about me in a negative fashion just because I spoke the truth. Forgive me but anyone that can honestly say that they love their geckos as much as they love their own family members/children or friends probably needs some professional help.

And for someone to take a comment such as the one I made and take it out of context and use it to stir up my pot of already boiling and churning emotions, yeah, it kinda disturbs me,

Yeah but, like I said, in the big scheme of things it isn't that important. It just hurt me. Sometimes when I get hurt, I like to find out why it happened. And maybe show the one that hurt me how wrong they were. That's all. Sorry if anyone else was offended by my statement.

Kelli,

I am a single parent, I can tell you first hand that I did not even blink or begin to think anything at all about what you said. It did not even register. To be perfectly honest I had no idea what Nicolai was talking about. I even went back and read your post 3 or 4 times looking for what he could have been talking about. I still did not see what he was talking about until I seen this thread.

You are the one with your priorities in order. You are the one that owes no one an apology. Certain people are either ignorant of the situation or are so lonely in hell that they are trying to bring it out here.

Kelli, do not ever feel you need to explain or apologize. You are a very strong and caring person that owes no one anything. Honestly, I am not sure I could handle what you have endured. As a person I mourn for you, your family and Hayden. As a parent my heart screams out to you. I cry every time I talk to you....

shrap said:

Kelli,

I am a single parent, I can tell you first hand that I did not even blink or begin to think anything at all about what you said. It did not even register. To be perfectly honest I had no idea what Nicolai was talking about. I even went back and read your post 3 or 4 times looking for what he could have been talking about. I still did not see what he was talking about until I seen this thread.

You are the one with your priorities in order. You are the one that owes no one an apology. Certain people are either ignorant of the situation or are so lonely in hell that they are trying to bring it out here.

Kelli, do not ever feel you need to explain or apologize. You are a very strong and caring person that owes no one anything. Honestly, I am not sure I could handle what you have endured. As a person I mourn for you, your family and Hayden. As a parent my heart screams out to you. I cry every time I talk to you....

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Tried to give you karma for this one but I couldn't.

It's good.

Kelli, you ARE one of the most caring, sincere, and honest people I know. There is not one among us who can truly grasp this journey you have been on since June 21, 2005. I never once interpreted your post in any way other than the way you meant it.

I lost my Dad on October 8, 2005... just 12 days ago. Although the pain of losing a parent pales in comparison to the loss of a child, when we suffer grief of that magnitude we become acutely aware of what's really important. Yes. We do.

Do I love my geckos? Well... sure! I also love ice cream and reading thrillers. But are these things really that important in the scheme of things? Well, on a scale of 1-10 I guess I love my geckos somewhere around 5 or so. I love my family around 9+, God is a 10, my country around sevenish.

What people think of me is important, just like it is for you, Kelli. How people interpret what I really mean when I say something means a lot too, but it also depends on how much I value that person's opinion in the first place. You owe absolutely NO ONE an explanation here on Fauna.

You are right on when you say "In the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter, they're just geckos!"

kelli, show me where i made this public or even mentioned your name?? Please do this for me. You say you dont know me. well we used to talk on KS for hours back on the leopard geclo forum on ks and chats.( my user name then was MADRUSSIAN) My picture is on the family photo page just inches from yours and has been next to yours for years. I know your son died as i was one of the people that participated in the Hayden auctions to help out as i felt so very bad for you and your family and even won two of them. ( I won a beautiful bell albino)I sent you the payment via paypal, you should have seen my name then.
No where and i mean no where did i mention your name on this site for what i pm'd you about, but you did to me. I am very disapointed that i am now having to dispute something that i talked to you in private about in a public forum. You brought your name into the other thread and now this one for nothing. I had a question for you and wanted to talk to you personally and i did so in a very nice way, and this is how i get repaid. i used proper etiquite in what i did by pm'ing you personally out of the public eye, do you feel acted the same by posting my name here, where people are going to seee this thread for years to come?
I am very sorry that you lost your son and being a father myself and loving my children more then anything else i would never want to go through something like that. I also do not put geckos into the same bracket as my children as they are animals not my flesh and blood. And i have never once said they were.
I pm'd you because i read your post and didnt understand the one line of it and pm'd you about it so i could understand it.

ok, I didn't read through most of this stuff but something really struck me... I am having a "spat" with my grandmother over her dogs... my son is 15 months old and I love him dearly. Now, bear in mind, my mother is one of these people who trains dogs, KNOWS dog behavior/health, and is just obsessed with her breeds... so of course, I picked up lots from that. To say the least though, I am NOT a dog person really. Knowing what I know puts me in a HORRIBLE position. I know dog behavior and body language so I am more cautious than most with my son around dogs (which I am grateful for really)... the reason this ties in and what my grandma has to do with this is simple- a while back her dog (a 175 pound mastiff/rott mix from a backyard breeder-no my grandparents don't buy them for fighting, they just like big breed dogs) got within 3" of my son's face. I told her dog no to which she bolted out of her chair with my son and proceeded to wag her finger in my face, lecturing me about how her dog will not be made to feel unloved in her home and so on... I told her that it is her dog's sheer size/the fact that he behaves like he is a puppy and my son also causes him to become extremely excited that concerns me-I worry that he will possibly knock him over or what have you and hurt him that way. They also have a rottie that is a dominant female, toy/food posessive and fairly cranky when her feet are messed with. Ironically, she hasn't caused any strife yet. But boy, the other dog led to my taking my son home and he hasn't been up there but once since-it's been over 2 months now and thus far, I refuse to bring him back...
my point with that is that I couldn't believe she was so stubborn. After telling her I don't believe her dog to be vicious, just too big/rough/playful she still would not listen. She was projecting her emotions onto her dog and literally stated, "I know my dog and he would NEVER hurt that baby!"... this to me is loving an animal more than your own family. The really frightening/sad thing is how she really is that stubborn and is more willing to let her pride get in the way of reality... her dog could hurt my son out of no ill intention, and since he's a dog, the potential is there that he could do so out of ill intention. She says that there is no way of that and that terrifies me.
I own a gecko, but even aside from that, own a dog. Neither of those, nor any or all of our beardies even matter in light of my son, husband, or any of my family... they are mine to care for, and I certainly do so but I KNOW that they do not equal a human! If the option arose I would NEVER choose an animal over my husband or child! I don't understand how anyone could...

Sorry for the rambling post but the subject made me think of that... and I want to say that I am not joking, that situation actually happened, and sadly, she will not change her position...

Stick to your guns Angelica. It's tough but necessary. If granny likes the dog in the house more than grandkids, well, granny made that choice. Didn't she?

My own dog is great with most people, he just ignores them. He's usually really cool about kids and ignores them too. Until they get right up on him. Anyone that has a problem with my dog at my house, is in a dog free house. Of course, there aren't all that many coming by in general and non-dog people are virtually non-existant in my inner circle so it's sort of a moot point.

Anyway, don't take the chance, there is NO payoff for this one.

Ok for one this is my fault not Kelli's foir being bought into that "other thread", I should not have mentioned Kelli's name in the "other thread" and as soon as I realized the mistake I tried to edit the post and you can't edit in that forum. So it all comes down to me being too stupid to think it through before I type when I am upset or angry.

I have talked to Kelli a few times and I know she cares for her animals deeply, heck you can see that by the photos of them and by her amazing accomplishments in breeding lines alone, but as she said, they are not humans or on the same level as our family members.

I never thought a second about her saying they are "just geckos" because I knew what she meant and it didn't put any thing in my head other than to remind me of what all she has been through this year and that she is one amazing, strong woman that we can all learn a thing or two from.

If I may.....

It seems that no one is out to "get" anyone here. A mistake or two were made, admitted to, remorsed over and wished the removal of. Cool.

Now, let's be "mature" about it and just let it go. We don't need 200 pages of who said what about who and why.

It just doesn't matter. In THIS case.

There was harm. There was a foul. Both unintentional from what I can see of the situation. Time to move on.

Thinking before speaking/posting is not a bad idea but still won't stop honest mistakes and misunderstandings.

Being able to see the mistakes and differentiate them from some buttwad being mean is not always easy.

I think we all see the mistakes and the honesty in which they were made and admitted to. This is good.

Moving on would be good to.

Let's do that. Shall we? Right this way....

Did I ever tell you about the time we were on the road following The Dead up to Colorado......

Wilomn said:

Did I ever tell you about the time we were on the road following The Dead up to Colorado......

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Colorado sounds more appealing than some of the places I went -- like Utica, Buffalo, Binghamton, New Haven. Of course the shows in those small venues were generally better and a lot more fun than the ones in the big venues like Giants Stadium and Madison Square Garden...but that's another story for another day. I agree with Wes. Let's just all move on.

Red Rocks was AMAZING, and wherever we went in Utah was pretty cool too. Some of those days are sort of fuzzy for some reason. You're right about the smaller venues though, they were the best. Ventura Fairgrounds on the beach, Long Beach Arena before it got scummy, all the No. Cal. shows, Calveras County was one of the best weekends of my life. They played with the Nevel Bros. and Santana.

Wow, do I EVER wish I had a WayBack Machine now.

"Did I ever tell you about the time we were on the road following The Dead up to Colorado......"

No, but tell us about what happened when you finally caught up to them! I heard a crazy rumor that you carried more than just their equipment......

Chris@TSE said:

"Did I ever tell you about the time we were on the road following The Dead up to Colorado......"

No, but tell us about what happened when you finally caught up to them! I heard a crazy rumor that you carried more than just their equipment......

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DAMN all rumors and those who monger them!!! It was legal I tell ya, LEGAL.

frickinlocalcopsdonknowtherebuttsfromwhosywhatsis.....mutter mutter mutter

Besides, I'm pretty sure THOSE rumors are largely unfounded.

Picture this though- it's dusk, evening is the whisper of a bat's flicker away. There are some overhead lights, much like street lights but not many and not close together. The shadows are thick and practically alive; jumping from wall to ground and back again in nothing flat, gathering together in great inkblot conglomerations like millions of amoeba feasting on eachother; cinemascope in black and white, colors muted with the fading of the light.

Out of the sea of shadows emerges a profile, seen only in shadow as a shadow on a wall. This shadow is not one of the unidentified multitudes. Though it had been years since last we crossed paths, I knew who she was just from her shadow, seen late on evening while on the road following The Dead.

Cool huh?

For the record: I hijacked this thread. I completely changed where it was heading to another destination entirely.

I did it because I care about this site and what happens here. I could see no good outcome from the road it started out on so I acted in a positive manner.

I am wondering if I'll get another point or ten but have to do what I think is right.

What do you do in situations such as this one Rich?

Not instigating but it'll happen again and you may as well deal with it now as later.

Wilomn said:

For the record: I hijacked this thread. I completely changed where it was heading to another destination entirely.

I did it because I care about this site and what happens here. I could see no good outcome from the road it started out on so I acted in a positive manner.

I am wondering if I'll get another point or ten but have to do what I think is right.

What do you do in situations such as this one Rich?

Not instigating but it'll happen again and you may as well deal with it now as later.

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Report yourself and find out.

With some of the tattletales reading this I hardly think I need take matters in hand to such a degree as that.

But thanks for the thought.

Hey Nicolai, I am sorry but I don't really remember the Leopard Gecko Family Album, I haven't looked at it in quite awhile. I do remember occasionally chatting with "madrussian" years ago but did not know that was you. As a matter of fact, I thought for sure you were a young kid (16ish) until I looked at your profile last night. Also, just because we chatted about geckos a few times does not mean that I know you. Also, now you are so upset about me "outing" you, yet you had already brought it up in a public thread! LOL

I am very sorry that you lost your son and being a father myself and loving my children more then anything else i would never want to go through something like that. I also do not put geckos into the same bracket as my children as they are animals not my flesh and blood. And i have never once said they were.

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Well, Nicolai, does that not prove my point that in the big scheme of things, it isn't that important, they are just geckos? Your pm to me didn't say that YOU didn't understand that comment, your pm said that OTHERS were upset about it and "talking behind my back". You were "concerned" that they had taken my comment the wrong way. You never said YOU had taken it the wrong way or didn't understand it. Interesting though how now you are saying, "Gee, I just didn't understand your comment, and now it's all this...".

Ok, Wes et al, you are right and I am done with this. I still stand behind what I said though, in the big scheme of things. Thank you, and good night. Or good afternoon, rather.