Richard Carew and Luis Taracena Breeding Loan

Timing of Events

Luis was supposed to breed a 2002 dh sunglow male produced by Jeremy Stone (the one pictured beside the receipt) with Aurora? The breeding loan agreement was made in MAY, 2005. At what point did Luis supposedly notify Rick that this animal wouldn't breed and a coral albino was agreed to be substituted? According to Luis's timeline posted above he states:

"Richard and I discused that my CB2002 male Salmon Hypo 100% Het Sunglow from Jeremy Stone was showing little interest in couting and we both agree to use my CB2003 male Coral Albino from Rich Ihle as a back up male."

Then there is a picture of an albino breeding Aurora dated November 06.
I would like to note that the animal I mentioned on the other thread that Luis offered to trade me in early November was the SAME ONE CONTRACTED TO BREED AURORA! That being a 2002 dh sunglow produced by Jeremy Stone.
So Luis, you were going to trade me an animal that you had under a breeding loan contract? Did you tell Richard that you were going to trade this animal off to me? Somehow I don't think so. I have all e-mail records complete with pics to prove you were planning to send that animal to me the first week of November. BTW, you never mentioned the animal I was to trade for was a non-breeder and that's why you wanted to dump him. The season was still very early for any breeding to take place yet you were going to get rid of a valuable animal like that so early in the game? Makes me wonder if you didn't KNOW you had a problem with IBD or some other illness in your collection and that's why you were willing to pass off the animal and replace it with a fresh one from Matt's collection. Is the dh sunglow even still alive?
I'd like to hear from Richard when he was made aware you were going to substitute an albino for the dh sunglow. My belief is it was well after you had already made the switch in breeding partners since you were planning to send the animal to me in early November. Maybe I missed it somewhere but I'm just trying to get the timing of events straight here.

Greg.... Really, at this point.... who cares??.... Everybody got their animals back, Luis was proven to be the amoral person he is, I doubt ANYBODY will ever deal with him again.... So why continue beating a dead horse??.... Do you really think he will admit to anything??.... No matter how much solid proof you offer.... Let it go and let him crawl back under his rock....

Neil

Neil Gubitz said:

Greg.... Really, at this point.... who cares??.... Everybody got their animals back, Luis was proven to be the amoral person he is, I doubt ANYBODY will ever deal with him again.... So why continue beating a dead horse??.... Do you really think he will admit to anything??.... No matter how much solid proof you offer.... Let it go and let him crawl back under his rock....

Neil

Click to expand...

Neil, "who cares", are you serious? He is simply asking where this male is and if it is still alive. If that male died I think Rick will certainly care, don't you? If the IBD thing is truly a part of this, then every person that has ever dealt with Luis will care. There is no way he should be allowed to "crawl back under his rock".

Bill & Amy said:

Neil, "who cares", are you serious? He is simply asking where this male is and if it is still alive. If that male died I think Rick will certainly care, don't you? If the IBD thing is truly a part of this, then every person that has ever dealt with Luis will care. There is no way he should be allowed to "crawl back under his rock".

Click to expand...

Exactly. Even if the IBD was nothing but an off the cuff remark (albeit in very bad taste) there are still many unanswered questions that need to be addressed, as well as Aurora's current health. That....and what crawls back under their rock always seems to crawl back out to bite at someone else eventually if nothing is done to stop them.

I apologize.... you're BOTH right.... I wasn't thinking of it in THOSE terms.... But, now that you said it, I have to agree.... My bad....

Neil

I am just home from work and wanted to say.......Lets not start some IBD scare. Yes it is serious, and yes, I must have Aurora biopsy'd to make sure of other things as well as inclusion bodies. I was a bit peeved when I made My statement above. Not that I meant it any less.

Though this has gone down badly, I believe Luis comment to be a childish scare tactic, due to Me mentioning in phone calls recently that IBD very is real, and very contageous, and I know people who practice "strict quarentine" and still had to destroy animals because it got past them. He seems to think......... "it aint that bad. It does not spread the way you think. they can only get it a couple ways."
I INFORMED Luis over an hour and forty minute phone call, that HE can transmit it just by cleaning the cages. He does not believe this to be true. I hope he never finds out. He would probably have a rush sale or something.

I can say in all honesty, that I doubt IBD is in Luis collection. I have been there 4 or 5 timessince last May, and never saw any indications of sick animals. I have seen dirty cages is the most, or I would have squashed the contract myself long ago. I also did not even look at his snakes this time around. I was focused, and on a mission. I intended to get it finished and leave. So i did not notice whether the intended male was even there. I saw only a green conda that was next to Auroras cage.

As for Aurora........
Yes Luis, she is wheezing. Yes, I believe it to be RI. I will contact My vet when He returns, to see if He can do a home visit on short notice. This will be tomorrow. If he cannot, I will ask about getting some Tylan from Him. I was informed this would be the safest A-B for the babies. We'll see what he thinks about it.
Meanwhile, I have put a towel over the hot side, and she loves the darkness. I raised the temps to 100, and the ambient to a solid 85-88. This is the best I can do for her at the moment. She does not seem to be OVERLY stressed out about the move. I can only judge by looks and actions.

Matt's snakes are safe and still in My friends spare bedroom. (My little quarentine place.) I checked on them today.

Greg, I will look into the time frame for you, it may have been a phone call, but I seem to recall an IM conversation. I will have to look.


And for Luis, now that i am calmed down a bit, and thinking a little more rationally. Why did you even try to keep Aurora? Why did you have to tell me to "sue you to get her back"? Did I not inform you how i would most likely react if harm or foul play should come to her? Did i not tell you she is like My daughter? How would you react if someone held your son hostage? I just dont get it. I told you all would go as planned, just at My house instead of yours. I am an honorable person, and you would have gotten your half of the litter regardless of broken contract. It was only going to affect future dealings between us. I even said as I was leaving, (which you acknowledged) that I would get a hold of you when they are born. Even though a broken contract, attempted snake napping and hostaging had already taken place.

My concience says I have a moral obligation to fullfill. I gave My word. My "other side" says teach you a lesson, and show you how it feels, by making You sue Me for your half, just as you tried with me, with Aurora. (With the Sherriff present no less. I still cant get over that one.)

I have yet to decide which side of Me will prevail this battle. We will have to see what happens with Aurora.



Neil, I think Luis deserves the limelite he has brought upon himself. Let this thread stay at the top for all I care. JMHO

Rick

Well Luis, the results are now in. Aurora spit the last slug out at 4:15 pm yesterday, 4-14-06.
The total score is 13 LIVE babies.
13 slugs
2 that were underdeveloped
2 that were crushed by Aurora. (that really sucked. The little male looked nice )
1 with some freaky eyes, that was looking poorly from the start. I believe congenital defects of some kind. He manged to make it part way through the night. At 5:15 this morning, it was lifeless. Body temp was 87.4 F

Not exactly the 20 you have previously predicted. For pics of the entire event, (minus the beginning) go look in the Boa forum.

As per our agreement. I told You half, but there are 13 viable offspring. I'm not cutting one in half, LOL, So heres what I propose..........

Since you have carelessly cared for My girl, resulting in an RI, and I now suspect stomatitis.......




I have about 200 pictures or more over the years that says she has NEVER had a gap like this. I will look at it when I am done here, to see if this is indeed mouth rot, before I openly say it is yet another husbandry related ailment involving You.
Anyway, I digress. Since Vet care and testing is now needed that otherwise would not have been, (i.e...Throwing idiotic words around like IBD), I propose you just let Me keep the extra one to help with those bills. This would be the admirable thing to do IMHO.
If you cannot agree to that, than I will sell one of them, and you will get your half of the deal, 6 babies, and half the sale price. Reduced for a quick sale of course. (I wont barter on this one. You already know the last alternative)

Rick

Well Luis,
I just wanted you to be the 1st to know that one more baby has visible defects in one eye, and It too is looking poorly and may not make it. It might end up 6 and 6 after all, no need to sell one off.
Here's some pics, and I'll keep you (and everyone else) up over in the Boa forum.









Rick

Rick,

First IMO and without being able to inspect her personally I will venture that she has mouth rot, particularly aggravated on her left side.

On a side note, for a while I was keeping track of all eye defects popping out in albinos. You can read the whole thread with the opinions of many highly qualified individuals in the following thread:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19880&page=1&highlight=inbreeding+toll

Of course you will do as you wish but I strongly encourage (you have done it already within this thread) to disclose to any potential buyers that any of those babies are potential carriers for inheritable eye defects. At this point is beyond anyone’s doubt that the trait is genetic and inheritable as a simple recessive trait. In MHO it is more than likely that in this case both parents carry the trait.

The purpose of the General Business Discussions thread was to create awareness among fellow herpers of the degree to which this problem has progressed. In my opinion we can all do something about it; if not stopped it will continue to propagate like a wildfire. Rest assured we don’t need any more blind or one-eyed albinos being bred around.

Sorry about what happened to you.

Regards.

Well Luis, are you going to contact Me about these babies? One more has passed. This was just today. And I am pretty certain I am going to euthanize the last of the pop eyed ones, and have a biopsy and culture testing done with the cadaver.

This will bring us down to eleven viables. I still propose that I keep the extra one. Just wanted to make the news public knowledge.

Rick

Hey Richard,

I thought I reply on the other post "Aurora"

Anyways, I am sorry to hear it was a small litter and with eye problems. I would have never expect any of these eye problems since the male Coral came from one of Rich Ihle's Sunglow litters.

And I figure your Aurora would had a better litter. My 3year old female Salmon Hypo had a potentially 39 babies.

On the good side, even with a small litter with slugs and eye issues, is that Aurora is now a pruben breeder. I know a few guys who just can not get their Albinos to produce anything.

This is some of the things books can not teach us huh?

Well I think we will have to see how many babies are alive by the time they have shed and start to eat. I figure in 2-3 weeks they will have all probably shed and are ready to start eating. Then I guess it will be time for me to go visit you to El Paso and pick up some of the babies.

Unless you want me to pick them up sooner... Let me know.

Have you figure out how are you going to give each of them a number?

CB06 0.1 Albino Boa stock number # 04-15-ABCI-F01

Later, Luis T.

2-3 weeks is fine with Me. Just send Me an email or IM when the time comes.

Is not this your 3 yr old hypos second litter? The same one who is Sammy's mom? The Brian Leubking hypo? I didn't know she was 3, I thought older. But isn't litter size usually small for the first time? I have read many counts of this.

Albino x Albino breedings sometimes have problems. You told me this once about Matts snake I believe, perhaps another. And I have read links that were recently sent My way on this subject as well. We were unfortunate to have this happen. I for one will not do it again. There may be other problems that can show up later. Internal problems like, livers, hearts, non breeders, etc. etc. With 25% of the litter showing outward defects, I'd say more are likely to pass and have problems as well. I for one hope not, because it is not that great of a feeling to Me. Not to mention, they should not be bred, but pet only snakes. This trait may be inheritable, even to normals.

Haven't been to the other thread yet, so I may have missed it. I'll check it out. I would say the best news though, is that I have Aurora back, and she is under treatment for her ailments. I think She will prevail. Her whezing is barely audible now.


Rick

Sorry to have to revive this, but...............

Duplicate of other post on Luis in BOI............

Well Luis,

as stated, I relinquished the male 06M to the vet for necropsy, and pathology testing on 4-30-06. Today is 5-13 and the results are in. A mere 13 days. Why has it taken You so long to come through with your promises? I know You have been here and read this stuff, and Yet you choose not to respond, or merely post those results.

Here are mine (sorry, tried to make it as computer friendly sized as I could).................




The blood sucking attorney I talked to says I should keep them and make You sue Me. I believe it is because He see's a case and the potential for a few easy bucks. I however do not want to feed some parasite an easy meal, so I have decided to just be done with all of this.

There are 11 babies still alive. I have chosen 6 for Myself, and the other 5 for You. 2 of mine have not eaten, and 2 of yours have not eaten. This is as fair as I think I can be at the moment. I have incurred a bit of stress over this, and financial burdens that will take some time to recover from, so I do not want to hear a bunch of griping later how I did you wrong. You are lucky to get what You are.

I want you to come and get your share ASAP. I think a week is fair notice. I advise you not to put this on the back burner as you have repeatedly done throughout this ordeal. If You don't show up by next weekend 5-22, I will concider this a forfit of your half of the litter.

I really don't want to hear that you concider this an unfair time frame, or how it is inconveniencing you some how. In truth, I do not give a damn. You inconvenienced Matt and I and showed complete apathy through out this entire ordeal.

And again, You are lucky to be getting what You are. So come get your neonates, and don't forget to give Me some notice (like an hour. call from Demming N.M.) cuz I want the local P.D. present on this one also. I don't want you going around later saying that I didn't give you anything.

I also would advise you answering this one. I will post a duplicate post in the other thread, and send You a PM and an email with a link so You can't say You didn't get the message. I just want to be done with this, and with You once and for EVER.

Have a nice life,
Rick

wow man ur a smooth character man. most peaple wouldent have owend up great for u id buy something off u anyday bro,. best of luck with the rest

Thanks, was thinking of bring the other thread up, but this one will work too. No particular reason, just to bring it back so people will remember this guy. Too many Luis's in this world today. This how people are made aware of them.

A bright side to all this................No inclusion bodies were detected in any of the necropsied neos, or Aurora.

1.1 keepers too





He sells at KS too same user name, maybe others, so buying over there, make sure you know who your dealing with.


Rick

Well done

My personal opinion - I know that a lot of valuable and pertinent information regarding the involved individuals, their conduct and business practices came out in this thread....but at some point it just seems like too much negative energy to keep it all going. The facts came out, I think the truth is plain for all to see - re-hashing those facts won't change them. Am I wrong, or did it all just get to be an exhausting, draining ordeal for both of you guys?

Richard - I have learned that I cannot control anyone's actions but my own, and screwing someone over (even if they deserve it) demeans me. I am so impressed with your generous and reasonable offer to resolve this with Luis. It shows tremendous class and character. In the end, I believe you will be blessed for doing the right thing on YOUR end - because your character is defined by the grace and integrity of your own actions, no one elses.

Luis - Richard has made you a generous, honest, and reasonable offer. Accept it gratefully without another negative word and you will be doing the right thing.

Again, just my opinion.
Mike Bostic

great looking boas

Rick, Did he ever come get his five?

Erin, he came and got them 8 AM last Mothers day.

Mike, you are correct. It got old the first time. I wasn't really trying to add to it, just bring it up and let others read it, and form their own opinions. Someone else saved me the trouble though. It's been buried for a while, we have new members, soo.......


Anyway, seems to have worked. People are reading it.

Thanks,
Rick